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Kiryas Joel, NY - Government Grant To KJ Woman Center Criticized Over Mikvah |
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![In hundreds of pages of applications for state and federal grants, Kiryas Joel argued that its impoverished villagers could not afford to borrow large sums to build the womenÂ’s health care center. [photo credit-Record/CHET GORDO]](http://www.vosizneias.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/kjdoc.jpg "kjdoc")
In hundreds of pages of applications for state and federal grants, Kiryas Joel argued that its impoverished villagers could not afford to borrow large sums to build the womenÂ’s health care center. [photo credit-Record/CHET GORDO]
But Kiryas Joel officials appear to have concealed one of the building's secondary purposes as the host of a religious bath known as a mikvah, a potentially illegal use of the public funds that were poured into the $11.4 million project.
Village officials insist they're building a fitness center and spa in the basement, not a mikvah. The Kiryas Joel man chosen to run the 55-bed home, known as Aishes Chayil, has rebuffed repeated requests by the Times Herald-Record to tour the building.
Architectural plans for the three-story, 50,000-square-foot structure show little in the basement except mechanical and electrical rooms and open space, plus the outline of what is described as a "future pool" — large enough to be used for swimming.
But Orange County public works employees, touring Aishes Chayil (pronounced EYE-shiss hile) during construction in April 2007 to calculate the building's sewer charges, discovered the beginnings of 22 bathrooms and a "small wading pool" in the basement, none of which was reflected in the 2003 drawings by the firm of Long Island architect John Baumgarten.
![This building in Kiryas Joel is the new Woman Center being criticized for constructing a Mikvah from Government funds.[Times Herald-Record/DOMINICK FIORILLE]](http://www.vosizneias.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/ac12.jpg "ac12")
This building in Kiryas Joel is the new Woman Center being criticized for constructing a Mikvah from Government funds.[Times Herald-Record/DOMINICK FIORILLE]
'Cleanliness is next to godliness'
Their account was later filed in court as part of a lawsuit challenging sewer bills for Aishes Chayil and two other Kiryas Joel buildings. When the Times Herald-Record asked if the basement work meant that a mikvah was being built with public funds, Village Attorney Donald Nichol initially replied: "I don't see how it differs from any other washing facilities."
"When I grew up," he added, "I was taught that cleanliness is next to godliness."
Minutes later, after making a phone call to gather further information, Nichol called back and explained more emphatically that the basement would hold a fitness center and spa with what he alternately described as a jacuzzi or "therapeutic pool" — no longer a "washing facility."
"You can categorically say that it's not a mikvah," he said.
What makes the "jacuzzi" explanation dubious is a subsequent account about the pool's unusual water supply.
One visitor who has seen the basement observed an interior, concrete duct descending from the roof to a tall, concrete holding tank beside the pool — a conduit for rain water. Such a design is typical for a mikvah, which, under Jewish law, must draw naturally occurring water, such as rain or a spring, and channel it through non-metal pipes.
Ancient Jewish tradition dictates that a married woman visit a mikvah each month after menstruation to purify herself for sexual relations. The ritual — intensely private and conducted at night — concludes with complete immersion in a small pool.
Spiraling costs, more grants
Nichol described the basement's 22 bathrooms as "changing rooms." But they sound more like mikvah "preparation rooms," where women meticulously clean themselves for as long as two hours before entering the pool.
Aishes Chayil's main purpose is to offer mothers a quiet place to recuperate with their babies after giving birth in a hospital. Three similar facilities — each known in Yiddish as a "kimpeturin heim" — already cater to Orthodox Jewish women in the New York-New Jersey region, including one in the Rockland County Village of New Square.
Kiryas Joel officials estimated theirs would cost $3.5 million when they sought their first state grant for it in 2001. But the estimate kept rising as they repeatedly asked elected officials in Albany and Washington for more money, eventually securing $10.5 million in grants. Former Gov. George Pataki and Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver were the chief benefactors.
The village's lengthy solicitations briefly mention plans for a "physical therapy/fitness room" on an upper floor, with no elaboration. The architectural plans show none.
Nichol said in July the fitness center would cost about $300,000. But payment forms submitted by the contractor — obtained by the Times Herald-Record obtained through the state Freedom of Information Law — put the cost of the unanticipated "basement development" higher, at $397,500.
That would be a bargain for a mikvah, if that is indeed the cost. The lavish West Side Mikvah in Manhattan, which has four immersion pools and 13 preparation rooms on two floors, cost $10 million to $14 million by the time it opened two years ago, according to its staff.
Aishes Chayil a sight to behold
Construction costs at Aishes Chayil over the last two years, including the basement work, have been reimbursed in two installments through a $3 million state Dormitory Authority grant that Silver secured in 2007. The grant agreement prohibits using any of the funds for "religious worship, instruction or proselytizing."
"If they're making an effort to bill us for a mikvah, we're not going to reimburse them for that," authority spokesman Marc Violette said last week.
But Kiryas Joel has already drawn all but $296,000 of the grant. Contractor payment forms appear to indicate that $147,681 in Dormitory Authority funds have reimbursed the village for basement work done between December 2006 and March 2008.
Village Administrator Gedalye Szegedin, who no longer returns calls from the Times Herald-Record, ignored written questions about the basement construction and other cost overruns at Aishes Chayil, sent to him by e-mail and regular mail.
The home finally began taking in mothers and newborns some time in November, although its administrator, Naftuli Oppenheim, couldn't specify which week it opened or how many women were staying there; his head count used the numbers 19, 20, 25, 30 and 35 in a single, brief conversation. The village says in court papers that Aishes Chayil opened Nov. 2.
According to a recorded phone message, beds are going for up to $185 a night — comparable to the top rates at mothers' homes in New Square and Freehold, N.J. That price for a private room has come down from the $200 rate village officials had planned.
Oppenheim never responded to the Times Herald-Record's tour request. One visitor has called Aishes Chayil a sight to behold, fitted with such opulent touches as marble floors and a giant chandelier.
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Total55
Read Comments (55) — Post Yours »
1
Dec 15, 2008 at 08:18 AM heshy Says:
A mikvah for women is one of the most important things we have in klal yisrul these days,
I have no idea why this has to be written about online for others to see,
We all know how much it costs to build one,
We should leave these stories for the record not for jewish websites!!!!
2
Dec 15, 2008 at 08:26 AM Anonymous Says:
This is assinine. Who does Kiryas Joel think they are kidding? Lying, being evasive, covering up what is obviously a Mikvah is ridiculous. Do they seriously think that this will engender anything but more ill will towards their community? The repeated abuse of public funds and public assistance is the one of the greatest chillul Hashem in our time.
3
Dec 15, 2008 at 08:28 AM Anonymous Says:
The kiryas Joel village had their problems with the neighbors from its birth, they have problems on every move, so KJ is not always gilty!
4
Dec 15, 2008 at 08:34 AM Anonymous Says:
“ A mikvah for women is one of the most important things we have in klal yisrul these days,
I have no idea why this has to be written about online for others to see,
We all know how much it costs to build one,
We should leave these stories for the record not for jewish websites!!!! ”
But I still don't believe the govt. Has to pay for the mikvah they didn't pay for one in BP?
5
Dec 15, 2008 at 08:30 AM Anonymous Says:
No one is arguing the validity of a Mikvah... What is ridiculous is expecting the state to pay for it. Do you want to also are your tax dollars build xtian baptism baths or Muslim shrines? This is America, where our constitution states that we have a separation of church and state. If people can't respect that then they should find a more suitable place to live. The entitled attitude of the far right religious in our community is a disgrace.
6
Dec 15, 2008 at 08:51 AM DerNister Says:
If this is a mikve and if it was built with illegally obtained government money, then for any woman to be tovelet in it, is a mitzvah habah b'aveirah.
7
Dec 15, 2008 at 08:49 AM Anonymous Says:
Now you know why Patterson is raising state taxes.
8
Dec 15, 2008 at 08:59 AM Yonason Says:
Importance of mikvah is besides the point - what is the point is that this appears to be yet another case of fraudelently seeking other peoples' money to use for our purposes. No matter how hard your thumbs fly, it is theft - it is an avaira. Shameful
9
Dec 15, 2008 at 08:54 AM Proud Jewish Redneck Says:
My God! Are we now finding fault with a Jewish congregation building a mikvah?
How can ANY frum Jewish facility made for women NOT have a mikvah?
We all know it is ossur for a woman to wait and not go to the mikvah when it is time.
Any facility housing married women for recuperation NEEDS a Mikvah. This is not optional, it is mandatory! It is just as important as a kosher kitchen.
So, what are they doing wrong? Well, the only thing I can see is that maybe they should have been more open and put the mikvah in the original plans, and not tried to pass it off as anything else.
But, why would they feel a need to?
I bet that if the rest of the Jewish world knew how important a Mikvah was, they would stop finding fault with them. It is the Jews who do not go to the Mikvah who want to make trouble for those who do. They don't want to pay for YOUR Mikvah with their tax money, blah, blah, blah.
But they are dead wrong. You CAN NOT HAVE WOMEN'S REHABILITATION WITHOUT A MIKVAH. IT IS JUST AS NECESSARY TO A JEWISH WOMAN AS KOSHER FOOD. They would never object to kosher food. They would not object to the extra kitchen facilities for kashrus. They understand that. They do not understand the importance of a Mikvah to women, and to a Jewish community.
Maybe we all need to EDUCATE the American Jewish Community to this Jewish Law:
"If a Jewish community has a Torah and no Mikvah, and they have no other funds to build a Mikvah, THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO SELL THE TORAH TO BUILD A MIKVAH. A MIKVAH IS MORE IMPORTANT TO A JEWISH COMMUNITY THAN A TORAH IS."
That, my friends, is the halacha as I was taught it. Does that not show the importance of a Mivkah.
The other halacha I was taught was, "Any married couple may not move to any location which is too far for the woman to walk to the Mikvah, just in case she needs to go Friday night!" My mesader kidishin, knowing I was living outside of NY/NJ area, wanted to know how far the kosher Mikvah was from my home before agreeing to be mesader kidishin!
I say, let us all ADVERTIZE, TEACH, EDUCATE the American Jewish population about the importance of Mikvah, so that they understand it is certainly just as necessary as kosher food.... which no one objects to. No one objects to this women's center having two kitchens, milchig and fleishig!!! The mikvah is even more important!
10
Dec 15, 2008 at 09:22 AM john Says:
“ No one is arguing the validity of a Mikvah... What is ridiculous is expecting the state to pay for it. Do you want to also are your tax dollars build xtian baptism baths or Muslim shrines? This is America, where our constitution states that we have a separation of church and state. If people can't respect that then they should find a more suitable place to live. The entitled attitude of the far right religious in our community is a disgrace. ”
thank u for comparing religious dogma with a yiddishe mamas mikvah a woman cannot function without a mikvah this isnt the rotary club or the freemansons shame on u JEW!
11
Dec 15, 2008 at 09:21 AM Anonymous Says:
“ This is assinine. Who does Kiryas Joel think they are kidding? Lying, being evasive, covering up what is obviously a Mikvah is ridiculous. Do they seriously think that this will engender anything but more ill will towards their community? The repeated abuse of public funds and public assistance is the one of the greatest chillul Hashem in our time. ”
did you hear abouth the YU ponzi
12
Dec 15, 2008 at 09:34 AM Yankel Says:
Unless I'm missing something, I don't understand how the new mothers will stay there and pay $185 a night for as long as it would take to go to the mikva after giving birth.
13
Dec 15, 2008 at 09:33 AM dreikup Says:
kiryas joel already has atleast two mikvas for women so stop emphasizing the importants of having a mikva. this is an issue of defrauding the goverment and using grants for purposes they were not intended. in addition, by doing so they evoke sinyas yisroel
14
Dec 15, 2008 at 09:31 AM Anonymous Says:
#9, isn’t this a gov. building?, I don’t know, but isn’t it interesting that the same group that screamed all these years for their Israeli brothers don’t take money from the gov. it’s not good for the kids...... are doing the same now.. Taking money for a mikva, probably one of the easiest causes to collect money, every one gives for a mikva... but these people are so greedy, the press hates them, and they keep adding woods to the fire, STOP feeding the press, use your head!!!!!
15
Dec 15, 2008 at 09:29 AM Lebediger Says:
they got over 11m, WHY DO THEY CHARGE 185 FOR A NIGHT?
16
Dec 15, 2008 at 09:52 AM Anonymous Says:
Enough Is Enough!
Why in the world are they asking 200! per night if they got so much from the state.
people who need so much CAN NOT efford it,
it shoult be ruled by the govermebnt that they can charge 100 per night tops.
17
Dec 15, 2008 at 09:48 AM anonymous Says:
As a woman myself, it baffles me why a mikvah would be built within the same housing unit as one for kimpeturins and recuperating patients. Neither group has use for a mikvah as long as they are staying at Aishes Chayil.
18
Dec 15, 2008 at 10:07 AM Yonason Says:
“ thank u for comparing religious dogma with a yiddishe mamas mikvah a woman cannot function without a mikvah this isnt the rotary club or the freemansons shame on u JEW! ”
No - Shame on You - You are completely ignorant of the fact that government grants are for specifically mandated non-religious purposes - KY has stolen money fraudulently, and by all appearances knowingly - b'mezid if you like that better. it is a major Chillul Hashem and disgraceful.
19
Dec 15, 2008 at 10:02 AM Yonason Says:
“ My God! Are we now finding fault with a Jewish congregation building a mikvah?
How can ANY frum Jewish facility made for women NOT have a mikvah?
We all know it is ossur for a woman to wait and not go to the mikvah when it is time.
Any facility housing married women for recuperation NEEDS a Mikvah. This is not optional, it is mandatory! It is just as important as a kosher kitchen.
So, what are they doing wrong? Well, the only thing I can see is that maybe they should have been more open and put the mikvah in the original plans, and not tried to pass it off as anything else.
But, why would they feel a need to?
I bet that if the rest of the Jewish world knew how important a Mikvah was, they would stop finding fault with them. It is the Jews who do not go to the Mikvah who want to make trouble for those who do. They don't want to pay for YOUR Mikvah with their tax money, blah, blah, blah.
But they are dead wrong. You CAN NOT HAVE WOMEN'S REHABILITATION WITHOUT A MIKVAH. IT IS JUST AS NECESSARY TO A JEWISH WOMAN AS KOSHER FOOD. They would never object to kosher food. They would not object to the extra kitchen facilities for kashrus. They understand that. They do not understand the importance of a Mikvah to women, and to a Jewish community.
Maybe we all need to EDUCATE the American Jewish Community to this Jewish Law:
"If a Jewish community has a Torah and no Mikvah, and they have no other funds to build a Mikvah, THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO SELL THE TORAH TO BUILD A MIKVAH. A MIKVAH IS MORE IMPORTANT TO A JEWISH COMMUNITY THAN A TORAH IS."
That, my friends, is the halacha as I was taught it. Does that not show the importance of a Mivkah.
The other halacha I was taught was, "Any married couple may not move to any location which is too far for the woman to walk to the Mikvah, just in case she needs to go Friday night!" My mesader kidishin, knowing I was living outside of NY/NJ area, wanted to know how far the kosher Mikvah was from my home before agreeing to be mesader kidishin!
I say, let us all ADVERTIZE, TEACH, EDUCATE the American Jewish population about the importance of Mikvah, so that they understand it is certainly just as necessary as kosher food.... which no one objects to. No one objects to this women's center having two kitchens, milchig and fleishig!!! The mikvah is even more important! ”
The point, Einstein, is that the government makes grant monies available for specific statutorily authorized, non-religious purposes - and when Yidden lie on a grant application so that they can use the money for unauthorized religious purposes it is Fraud, dishonest, a Chillul Hashem, an aveira . . . Can you get your mind around that?
20
Dec 15, 2008 at 09:59 AM Anonymous Says:
after a little thought I came to the conclusion that the mikva was probably built to use on Friday nights and Yom tov, where the other mikva is probably located a 30-45 minute walk, as a Monsey guy I know that there is like 10-15 Friday night mikvas ( kj guys correct me if I am wrong as I don’t live there), the village should have rented the basement to the mikva of kj inc( whatever name they work under...) and they should have built the mikva from funds they was donated for that cause. (in the back of mind I hope that the case, but it doesn’t look good, when a 10MM building project doesn’t have a plan for the basement) it’s a shame that because they have a very strong relationship with the politicians (no one wants to lose the votes .......), they are taking full advantage and stealing right and left… but for the local press this is life support and a chillel hashem.. Please STOP acting like morons.
A jew that is feeling betrayed by another jew.
21
Dec 15, 2008 at 09:58 AM Anonymous Says:
without the tzadikim of kiryas joel certainly america would be in much worse shape.
our holy women are keeping this country going. the government should pay for more mikvas.
they should build a beautiful in every town in america with more than 10 jewish women.
it should be law.
22
Dec 15, 2008 at 10:28 AM shteig Says:
“ did you hear abouth the YU ponzi ”
1) this is your sin - it was not a "YU" ponzi - YU lost money.
2) even if that were true it does not excuse this
23
Dec 15, 2008 at 10:19 AM WONDERING Says:
where women meticulously clean themselves for as long as two hours before entering the pool.
My god what do they do for so long in there???
24
Dec 15, 2008 at 11:02 AM rabbi Says:
“ without the tzadikim of kiryas joel certainly america would be in much worse shape.
our holy women are keeping this country going. the government should pay for more mikvas.
they should build a beautiful in every town in america with more than 10 jewish women.
it should be law.
”
dude this is the united states were state and religoun are a part and that is the only reason why you could walk the streets with you shene paykes .get that ? if you find this dificult perhaps seeking an other living country would be of benefit to you .. perhaps
25
Dec 15, 2008 at 10:55 AM Use Your Head Says:
“ Unless I'm missing something, I don't understand how the new mothers will stay there and pay $185 a night for as long as it would take to go to the mikva after giving birth. ”
Yankel, don't you get it by now? It's very simple - we, the taxpayers, will be paying for their stays! Just like everything else we already pay for in KJ.
26
Dec 15, 2008 at 10:53 AM me Says:
“ My God! Are we now finding fault with a Jewish congregation building a mikvah?
How can ANY frum Jewish facility made for women NOT have a mikvah?
We all know it is ossur for a woman to wait and not go to the mikvah when it is time.
Any facility housing married women for recuperation NEEDS a Mikvah. This is not optional, it is mandatory! It is just as important as a kosher kitchen.
So, what are they doing wrong? Well, the only thing I can see is that maybe they should have been more open and put the mikvah in the original plans, and not tried to pass it off as anything else.
But, why would they feel a need to?
I bet that if the rest of the Jewish world knew how important a Mikvah was, they would stop finding fault with them. It is the Jews who do not go to the Mikvah who want to make trouble for those who do. They don't want to pay for YOUR Mikvah with their tax money, blah, blah, blah.
But they are dead wrong. You CAN NOT HAVE WOMEN'S REHABILITATION WITHOUT A MIKVAH. IT IS JUST AS NECESSARY TO A JEWISH WOMAN AS KOSHER FOOD. They would never object to kosher food. They would not object to the extra kitchen facilities for kashrus. They understand that. They do not understand the importance of a Mikvah to women, and to a Jewish community.
Maybe we all need to EDUCATE the American Jewish Community to this Jewish Law:
"If a Jewish community has a Torah and no Mikvah, and they have no other funds to build a Mikvah, THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO SELL THE TORAH TO BUILD A MIKVAH. A MIKVAH IS MORE IMPORTANT TO A JEWISH COMMUNITY THAN A TORAH IS."
That, my friends, is the halacha as I was taught it. Does that not show the importance of a Mivkah.
The other halacha I was taught was, "Any married couple may not move to any location which is too far for the woman to walk to the Mikvah, just in case she needs to go Friday night!" My mesader kidishin, knowing I was living outside of NY/NJ area, wanted to know how far the kosher Mikvah was from my home before agreeing to be mesader kidishin!
I say, let us all ADVERTIZE, TEACH, EDUCATE the American Jewish population about the importance of Mikvah, so that they understand it is certainly just as necessary as kosher food.... which no one objects to. No one objects to this women's center having two kitchens, milchig and fleishig!!! The mikvah is even more important! ”
do you know anything about biology? Noone whol is in a home for new mothers needs to use a mikva. Stays there usually range from one to two weeks after a baby is born, I don't know any women who can use a mikvah during that time.
You are right, Mikvahs are important, but they are unneccesary in a respite home for new mothers.
Build one somewhere else with private funding.
Any time things are hidden and added later etc. and not above board you know that the people in charge knew they were doing something wrong.
27
Dec 15, 2008 at 10:52 AM Anonymous Says:
KJ thinks that can do what ever they please. They don't want to understand that here in America you must do things according to the law, or else you are causing a Chilul Hashem!!
28
Dec 15, 2008 at 10:49 AM Anonymous Says:
“ My God! Are we now finding fault with a Jewish congregation building a mikvah?
How can ANY frum Jewish facility made for women NOT have a mikvah?
We all know it is ossur for a woman to wait and not go to the mikvah when it is time.
Any facility housing married women for recuperation NEEDS a Mikvah. This is not optional, it is mandatory! It is just as important as a kosher kitchen.
So, what are they doing wrong? Well, the only thing I can see is that maybe they should have been more open and put the mikvah in the original plans, and not tried to pass it off as anything else.
But, why would they feel a need to?
I bet that if the rest of the Jewish world knew how important a Mikvah was, they would stop finding fault with them. It is the Jews who do not go to the Mikvah who want to make trouble for those who do. They don't want to pay for YOUR Mikvah with their tax money, blah, blah, blah.
But they are dead wrong. You CAN NOT HAVE WOMEN'S REHABILITATION WITHOUT A MIKVAH. IT IS JUST AS NECESSARY TO A JEWISH WOMAN AS KOSHER FOOD. They would never object to kosher food. They would not object to the extra kitchen facilities for kashrus. They understand that. They do not understand the importance of a Mikvah to women, and to a Jewish community.
Maybe we all need to EDUCATE the American Jewish Community to this Jewish Law:
"If a Jewish community has a Torah and no Mikvah, and they have no other funds to build a Mikvah, THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO SELL THE TORAH TO BUILD A MIKVAH. A MIKVAH IS MORE IMPORTANT TO A JEWISH COMMUNITY THAN A TORAH IS."
That, my friends, is the halacha as I was taught it. Does that not show the importance of a Mivkah.
The other halacha I was taught was, "Any married couple may not move to any location which is too far for the woman to walk to the Mikvah, just in case she needs to go Friday night!" My mesader kidishin, knowing I was living outside of NY/NJ area, wanted to know how far the kosher Mikvah was from my home before agreeing to be mesader kidishin!
I say, let us all ADVERTIZE, TEACH, EDUCATE the American Jewish population about the importance of Mikvah, so that they understand it is certainly just as necessary as kosher food.... which no one objects to. No one objects to this women's center having two kitchens, milchig and fleishig!!! The mikvah is even more important! ”
either you are not in touch with reality or you are not married .
Because if you were marriedyou would know that a women who gives birth does not got to the mikva for many weeks after birth which by that time she is already home .
As far as having a mikva in satmar? they already have from day one when satmar was established in monroe years ago . so what is your agrument exactly?
29
Dec 15, 2008 at 10:47 AM Anonymous Says:
“ My God! Are we now finding fault with a Jewish congregation building a mikvah?
How can ANY frum Jewish facility made for women NOT have a mikvah?
We all know it is ossur for a woman to wait and not go to the mikvah when it is time.
Any facility housing married women for recuperation NEEDS a Mikvah. This is not optional, it is mandatory! It is just as important as a kosher kitchen.
So, what are they doing wrong? Well, the only thing I can see is that maybe they should have been more open and put the mikvah in the original plans, and not tried to pass it off as anything else.
But, why would they feel a need to?
I bet that if the rest of the Jewish world knew how important a Mikvah was, they would stop finding fault with them. It is the Jews who do not go to the Mikvah who want to make trouble for those who do. They don't want to pay for YOUR Mikvah with their tax money, blah, blah, blah.
But they are dead wrong. You CAN NOT HAVE WOMEN'S REHABILITATION WITHOUT A MIKVAH. IT IS JUST AS NECESSARY TO A JEWISH WOMAN AS KOSHER FOOD. They would never object to kosher food. They would not object to the extra kitchen facilities for kashrus. They understand that. They do not understand the importance of a Mikvah to women, and to a Jewish community.
Maybe we all need to EDUCATE the American Jewish Community to this Jewish Law:
"If a Jewish community has a Torah and no Mikvah, and they have no other funds to build a Mikvah, THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO SELL THE TORAH TO BUILD A MIKVAH. A MIKVAH IS MORE IMPORTANT TO A JEWISH COMMUNITY THAN A TORAH IS."
That, my friends, is the halacha as I was taught it. Does that not show the importance of a Mivkah.
The other halacha I was taught was, "Any married couple may not move to any location which is too far for the woman to walk to the Mikvah, just in case she needs to go Friday night!" My mesader kidishin, knowing I was living outside of NY/NJ area, wanted to know how far the kosher Mikvah was from my home before agreeing to be mesader kidishin!
I say, let us all ADVERTIZE, TEACH, EDUCATE the American Jewish population about the importance of Mikvah, so that they understand it is certainly just as necessary as kosher food.... which no one objects to. No one objects to this women's center having two kitchens, milchig and fleishig!!! The mikvah is even more important! ”
KJ already has a mikvah, maybe 2 or 3 (I don't know how many as I don't live there) The woman recuperating there don't need one as most woman aren't there for more than a week to two - that means that the baby is 2-3 weeks old. Medically and sensibly she shouldn't be going yet to the Mikvah.
30
Dec 15, 2008 at 11:34 AM Anonymous Says:
If they are building a Mikvah why not have someone sponsor the cost of building out the entire basement and Mikvah / Spa facility or even better would be to build another small building on the campus to house the Mikvah. This way there would be no problem with a possible misuse of the government funds
31
Dec 15, 2008 at 12:34 PM DEEPTHINKER Says:
SO, LET'S UNDERSTAND NOW.
If the pool is a pool, that's O.K.
But, if the pool is religious, it's not O.K.
I say: A POOL, IS A POOL, IS A POOL--PERIOD!
32
Dec 15, 2008 at 12:33 PM bigwheeel Says:
“ did you hear abouth the YU ponzi ”
Fregt Rashi. "Mah Inyan Sh'mittah Eitzel Har Sinai?!" !!! BTW it would be great if the Times Herald Record took its spotlight off Kiryas Joel and its population! Yes, they live [and thrive] on Sensation. (not "sensations") But, there's a limit to everything! Come on. There's nothing [else] happening in Orange County besides KJ this, KJ that???!!!. All of a sudden, they are expert on the Jewish Religion. With all the details and subchapters. Enough is Enough!!!
33
Dec 15, 2008 at 12:50 PM Anonymous Says:
“ SO, LET'S UNDERSTAND NOW.
If the pool is a pool, that's O.K.
But, if the pool is religious, it's not O.K.
I say: A POOL, IS A POOL, IS A POOL--PERIOD! ”
because if its a pool built on government money then any person be it male , female , jew or non jew should be able to use it at any time . Its no wonder now why ny state has to raise taxes. what a buncha chayos .
34
Dec 15, 2008 at 01:48 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Unless I'm missing something, I don't understand how the new mothers will stay there and pay $185 a night for as long as it would take to go to the mikva after giving birth. ”
Good for you! Are those women going to stay there for six or eight weeks?
Or are they toiveling right away or even go swiming? What a narishkiet is to have a Mikveh at such a palce. Just to get money ?
35
Dec 15, 2008 at 01:36 PM rabbi Says:
well to make matters even more confusing ..................lol...............not really but let me siplifei kj for beginers or.. kj for dummies..kj is not a orginization it is a goverment body, under religios rule ... witch in this case is JEWISH now it seems so cool .. but in reallty how would we react if forsay chas veshalom a kirjat muhamed were to be esstablished.......how would we react . so the fact a goverment body like this exiists needs to put us a t worry. (let aside that the village is governd by jewish law ) how exectly are they diffrnt from the zionist whom they bash in evry chance they get.....if you dont beleive me try taking a stroll after 11 pm in kj there is a public safty vehical operated by chusid with no securty traing .his primary job (paid with our taxes) is vead hatznius....to see if wemen are driving to see if chas veshalom a bochur is not going out on a date. to keep track of yungeliet atnd their spouses what time they came home IN OTHER WORDS PERVERTS PAID FOR BY YOUR TAXES .so for beginers its beyond buiding mikvas........................................................
36
Dec 15, 2008 at 01:36 PM Yudi Mandel Says:
“ My God! Are we now finding fault with a Jewish congregation building a mikvah?
How can ANY frum Jewish facility made for women NOT have a mikvah?
We all know it is ossur for a woman to wait and not go to the mikvah when it is time.
Any facility housing married women for recuperation NEEDS a Mikvah. This is not optional, it is mandatory! It is just as important as a kosher kitchen.
So, what are they doing wrong? Well, the only thing I can see is that maybe they should have been more open and put the mikvah in the original plans, and not tried to pass it off as anything else.
But, why would they feel a need to?
I bet that if the rest of the Jewish world knew how important a Mikvah was, they would stop finding fault with them. It is the Jews who do not go to the Mikvah who want to make trouble for those who do. They don't want to pay for YOUR Mikvah with their tax money, blah, blah, blah.
But they are dead wrong. You CAN NOT HAVE WOMEN'S REHABILITATION WITHOUT A MIKVAH. IT IS JUST AS NECESSARY TO A JEWISH WOMAN AS KOSHER FOOD. They would never object to kosher food. They would not object to the extra kitchen facilities for kashrus. They understand that. They do not understand the importance of a Mikvah to women, and to a Jewish community.
Maybe we all need to EDUCATE the American Jewish Community to this Jewish Law:
"If a Jewish community has a Torah and no Mikvah, and they have no other funds to build a Mikvah, THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO SELL THE TORAH TO BUILD A MIKVAH. A MIKVAH IS MORE IMPORTANT TO A JEWISH COMMUNITY THAN A TORAH IS."
That, my friends, is the halacha as I was taught it. Does that not show the importance of a Mivkah.
The other halacha I was taught was, "Any married couple may not move to any location which is too far for the woman to walk to the Mikvah, just in case she needs to go Friday night!" My mesader kidishin, knowing I was living outside of NY/NJ area, wanted to know how far the kosher Mikvah was from my home before agreeing to be mesader kidishin!
I say, let us all ADVERTIZE, TEACH, EDUCATE the American Jewish population about the importance of Mikvah, so that they understand it is certainly just as necessary as kosher food.... which no one objects to. No one objects to this women's center having two kitchens, milchig and fleishig!!! The mikvah is even more important! ”
#1, your no Redneck, #2, what's your freakin' point? No one understands a word you said.
37
Dec 15, 2008 at 02:22 PM adim Says:
we chassidim hafe to understand that the hole world douse no run around us
38
Dec 15, 2008 at 03:04 PM Charlie Hall Says:
“ because if its a pool built on government money then any person be it male , female , jew or non jew should be able to use it at any time . Its no wonder now why ny state has to raise taxes. what a buncha chayos . ”
Reform and Conservative Rabbis will be able to use it for conversions. As can Jews for Jesus. Chas v'shalom!
39
Dec 15, 2008 at 04:14 PM deepthinker Says:
Look, pay attention.--
The inspectors clearly stated that a spa pool on the premesis for exercise is fine--no problem!--It's Kosher
But, if the spa pool has a religious function, it's not fine.--It's Treif
So, it's the Kosher religious function that makes the pool Treif.
So, you see, if it's Treif, the Government says it's Kosher; But if it's Kosher, the Government says it's Treif.
Now, it makes sense.
40
Dec 15, 2008 at 03:51 PM Swimming ben Torah Says:
Is it not wonderful that the Satmar community in K J built a beautiful swimming pool and the government paid for it with taxpayer money to which the Satmar Chassidim did not contribute! Wow. what a country! Even in the Jewish state of Israel they could not not accomplish that!
In seriousness, this is a MAJOR CHILLUL HASHEM,a major act of PUBLIC THEFT!!.They live by deception and established their community with deception. This is not anti-semitic czarist Russia where we have to be a step ahead of the authorities. We are free to build shuls,yeshivos and mikvoas but we must raise the money from people who donate,not take it from the US or NY govrenmenment as a right or entitlement. These Chassidim,are hurting the Jewish people by causing jealousy from the goyim and other frum,honest Jews. How dare they have the chutzpa to hide the truth and take millions from the taxpayers,while living a lavish lifestyle on other peoples' hard earned money! It is so frustrating to have to criticize fellow Jews but long beards and payous do not make one frum. STEALING is against our Torah.Perhaps Kiryas Yoel has a different Torah. Maybe the Satmarer rebbes made a new one.And to Mr # 9- you have a valid point except that it has NOTHING to do with this situation. No woman who just gave birth needs a mikva. Many women who breast-feed their newborns ahve no need for a mikva for a long time. In no other communities are there rest hotels for women who just gave birth. This is a facade for taking taxpayer money for private religious use. Can I go therer and use it (as a man)? Can a non-Jewish woman from Orange County go there? OF COURSE NOT! But-they paid for it with their tax money.The Satmar in KJ and Brklyn are good at getting paid "off-the books" so they don't pay their share of tax. They live in luxury while claiming poverty! SHEKKER!!!
41
Dec 15, 2008 at 05:47 PM Anonymous Says:
1) The fact that government contributed funds towards the building does not make it a government building.
2) They never take a dime from the Government of Israel. But in the US, they pay taxes and accept what the local goverments are willing to offer.
Politicians who want votes, encourage them to put in paperwork, etc.,
3) As far as there already being multiple Mikvuois in KJ, what does that matter. There are multiple kitchens too. So, should them bring outside food in and not build a kitchen?
These precious Jewish women who are in need of this important recuperation and need to go to the Mikvah, would certainly benefit from one in the building.
NOT EVERYONE AT THAT WOMEN'S CENTER IS RIGHT AFTER BIRTH!!!! SOME ARE THERE WEEKS LATER, AND DO NEED THE MIKVAH.
Why would anyone want them to have to be taken outside in the winter to another mikvah. Also, when you are in such physical shape, you need help to go to the Mikvah, and not to be maybe embarrassed in the more Public Mikvah.
It is a good thing.
Too bad they had to lie about it, and not state openly that they are building a REQUIRED MIKVAH.
And it IS required. How are these weakend women to get to the outside Mikvah on Friday night? This Mikvah is vital.
I just wish they had been more open about it.
42
Dec 15, 2008 at 05:53 PM Anonymous Says:
“ SO, LET'S UNDERSTAND NOW.
If the pool is a pool, that's O.K.
But, if the pool is religious, it's not O.K.
I say: A POOL, IS A POOL, IS A POOL--PERIOD! ”
it's too small to be used for swimming and there wouldn't be a need for so many bathrooms
43
Dec 15, 2008 at 05:44 PM Anonymous Says:
“ My God! Are we now finding fault with a Jewish congregation building a mikvah?
How can ANY frum Jewish facility made for women NOT have a mikvah?
We all know it is ossur for a woman to wait and not go to the mikvah when it is time.
Any facility housing married women for recuperation NEEDS a Mikvah. This is not optional, it is mandatory! It is just as important as a kosher kitchen.
So, what are they doing wrong? Well, the only thing I can see is that maybe they should have been more open and put the mikvah in the original plans, and not tried to pass it off as anything else.
But, why would they feel a need to?
I bet that if the rest of the Jewish world knew how important a Mikvah was, they would stop finding fault with them. It is the Jews who do not go to the Mikvah who want to make trouble for those who do. They don't want to pay for YOUR Mikvah with their tax money, blah, blah, blah.
But they are dead wrong. You CAN NOT HAVE WOMEN'S REHABILITATION WITHOUT A MIKVAH. IT IS JUST AS NECESSARY TO A JEWISH WOMAN AS KOSHER FOOD. They would never object to kosher food. They would not object to the extra kitchen facilities for kashrus. They understand that. They do not understand the importance of a Mikvah to women, and to a Jewish community.
Maybe we all need to EDUCATE the American Jewish Community to this Jewish Law:
"If a Jewish community has a Torah and no Mikvah, and they have no other funds to build a Mikvah, THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO SELL THE TORAH TO BUILD A MIKVAH. A MIKVAH IS MORE IMPORTANT TO A JEWISH COMMUNITY THAN A TORAH IS."
That, my friends, is the halacha as I was taught it. Does that not show the importance of a Mivkah.
The other halacha I was taught was, "Any married couple may not move to any location which is too far for the woman to walk to the Mikvah, just in case she needs to go Friday night!" My mesader kidishin, knowing I was living outside of NY/NJ area, wanted to know how far the kosher Mikvah was from my home before agreeing to be mesader kidishin!
I say, let us all ADVERTIZE, TEACH, EDUCATE the American Jewish population about the importance of Mikvah, so that they understand it is certainly just as necessary as kosher food.... which no one objects to. No one objects to this women's center having two kitchens, milchig and fleishig!!! The mikvah is even more important! ”
this is not a hospital and the women will know at least 7 days ahead of time when they'll need to and go home. Is the mikva available for non-residents ofthe facility?
44
Dec 15, 2008 at 05:57 PM Anonymous Says:
What anti chareidi the govt. Is not only in Isreal but here in the USA they don't fund my matzohs,my tefilin,& my shul I think its time to go out & protest
45
Dec 15, 2008 at 05:56 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Look, pay attention.--
The inspectors clearly stated that a spa pool on the premesis for exercise is fine--no problem!--It's Kosher
But, if the spa pool has a religious function, it's not fine.--It's Treif
So, it's the Kosher religious function that makes the pool Treif.
So, you see, if it's Treif, the Government says it's Kosher; But if it's Kosher, the Government says it's Treif.
Now, it makes sense. ”
it's treif if it's the size of a jacuzzi ( so it's too small to swim in ) and without the underwater jets of a jacuzzi
46
Dec 15, 2008 at 07:59 PM Anonymous Says:
These bums will do anything to mooch from the government. What about working and paying for your own mikvah. I guess thats too much to expect.
47
Dec 15, 2008 at 06:55 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Is it not wonderful that the Satmar community in K J built a beautiful swimming pool and the government paid for it with taxpayer money to which the Satmar Chassidim did not contribute! Wow. what a country! Even in the Jewish state of Israel they could not not accomplish that!
In seriousness, this is a MAJOR CHILLUL HASHEM,a major act of PUBLIC THEFT!!.They live by deception and established their community with deception. This is not anti-semitic czarist Russia where we have to be a step ahead of the authorities. We are free to build shuls,yeshivos and mikvoas but we must raise the money from people who donate,not take it from the US or NY govrenmenment as a right or entitlement. These Chassidim,are hurting the Jewish people by causing jealousy from the goyim and other frum,honest Jews. How dare they have the chutzpa to hide the truth and take millions from the taxpayers,while living a lavish lifestyle on other peoples' hard earned money! It is so frustrating to have to criticize fellow Jews but long beards and payous do not make one frum. STEALING is against our Torah.Perhaps Kiryas Yoel has a different Torah. Maybe the Satmarer rebbes made a new one.And to Mr # 9- you have a valid point except that it has NOTHING to do with this situation. No woman who just gave birth needs a mikva. Many women who breast-feed their newborns ahve no need for a mikva for a long time. In no other communities are there rest hotels for women who just gave birth. This is a facade for taking taxpayer money for private religious use. Can I go therer and use it (as a man)? Can a non-Jewish woman from Orange County go there? OF COURSE NOT! But-they paid for it with their tax money.The Satmar in KJ and Brklyn are good at getting paid "off-the books" so they don't pay their share of tax. They live in luxury while claiming poverty! SHEKKER!!! ”
"Can a non-Jewish woman from Orange County go there?"
I was wondering about this as well. Assuming one abides by the "spas" regulations, is any woman outside of KJ, Jewish or otherwise, able to avail herself of these facilities?
48
Dec 15, 2008 at 06:36 PM bitachon Says:
chasidishe women don't go swimming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
49
Dec 15, 2008 at 10:52 PM Anonymous Says:
“ thank u for comparing religious dogma with a yiddishe mamas mikvah a woman cannot function without a mikvah this isnt the rotary club or the freemansons shame on u JEW! ”
Anonymous Says:
“ No one is arguing the validity of a Mikvah... What is ridiculous is expecting the state to pay for it. Do you want to also are your tax dollars build xtian baptism baths or Muslim shrines? This is America, where our constitution states that we have a separation of church and state. If people can't respect that then they should find a more suitable place to live. The entitled attitude of the far right religious in our community is a disgrace. ”
thank u for comparing religious dogma with a yiddishe mamas mikvah a woman cannot function without a mikvah this isnt the rotary club or the freemansons shame on u JEW!
Reply »
What is the rotary club and freemansons?
50
Dec 15, 2008 at 10:52 PM Anonymous Says:
“ My God! Are we now finding fault with a Jewish congregation building a mikvah?
How can ANY frum Jewish facility made for women NOT have a mikvah?
We all know it is ossur for a woman to wait and not go to the mikvah when it is time.
Any facility housing married women for recuperation NEEDS a Mikvah. This is not optional, it is mandatory! It is just as important as a kosher kitchen.
So, what are they doing wrong? Well, the only thing I can see is that maybe they should have been more open and put the mikvah in the original plans, and not tried to pass it off as anything else.
But, why would they feel a need to?
I bet that if the rest of the Jewish world knew how important a Mikvah was, they would stop finding fault with them. It is the Jews who do not go to the Mikvah who want to make trouble for those who do. They don't want to pay for YOUR Mikvah with their tax money, blah, blah, blah.
But they are dead wrong. You CAN NOT HAVE WOMEN'S REHABILITATION WITHOUT A MIKVAH. IT IS JUST AS NECESSARY TO A JEWISH WOMAN AS KOSHER FOOD. They would never object to kosher food. They would not object to the extra kitchen facilities for kashrus. They understand that. They do not understand the importance of a Mikvah to women, and to a Jewish community.
Maybe we all need to EDUCATE the American Jewish Community to this Jewish Law:
"If a Jewish community has a Torah and no Mikvah, and they have no other funds to build a Mikvah, THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO SELL THE TORAH TO BUILD A MIKVAH. A MIKVAH IS MORE IMPORTANT TO A JEWISH COMMUNITY THAN A TORAH IS."
That, my friends, is the halacha as I was taught it. Does that not show the importance of a Mivkah.
The other halacha I was taught was, "Any married couple may not move to any location which is too far for the woman to walk to the Mikvah, just in case she needs to go Friday night!" My mesader kidishin, knowing I was living outside of NY/NJ area, wanted to know how far the kosher Mikvah was from my home before agreeing to be mesader kidishin!
I say, let us all ADVERTIZE, TEACH, EDUCATE the American Jewish population about the importance of Mikvah, so that they understand it is certainly just as necessary as kosher food.... which no one objects to. No one objects to this women's center having two kitchens, milchig and fleishig!!! The mikvah is even more important! ”
i must admit that this blog has been way too entertaining....:) and as for u, redneck - u should look into giving kallah classes!!!!
51
Dec 15, 2008 at 10:48 PM Anonymous Says:
“ without the tzadikim of kiryas joel certainly america would be in much worse shape.
our holy women are keeping this country going. the government should pay for more mikvas.
they should build a beautiful in every town in america with more than 10 jewish women.
it should be law.
”
and u should be locked up in a loony bin somewhere far away from society
52
Dec 15, 2008 at 10:28 PM rabbi Says:
“ 1) The fact that government contributed funds towards the building does not make it a government building.
2) They never take a dime from the Government of Israel. But in the US, they pay taxes and accept what the local goverments are willing to offer.
Politicians who want votes, encourage them to put in paperwork, etc.,
3) As far as there already being multiple Mikvuois in KJ, what does that matter. There are multiple kitchens too. So, should them bring outside food in and not build a kitchen?
These precious Jewish women who are in need of this important recuperation and need to go to the Mikvah, would certainly benefit from one in the building.
NOT EVERYONE AT THAT WOMEN'S CENTER IS RIGHT AFTER BIRTH!!!! SOME ARE THERE WEEKS LATER, AND DO NEED THE MIKVAH.
Why would anyone want them to have to be taken outside in the winter to another mikvah. Also, when you are in such physical shape, you need help to go to the Mikvah, and not to be maybe embarrassed in the more Public Mikvah.
It is a good thing.
Too bad they had to lie about it, and not state openly that they are building a REQUIRED MIKVAH.
And it IS required. How are these weakend women to get to the outside Mikvah on Friday night? This Mikvah is vital.
I just wish they had been more open about it.
”
ohh.. how narow minded naren you if they are staying there on a friday night and cant,t go out in the cold your right it s cold to go out but HELLLO HELLLOOOOOO there in the building for shaboss.. so i take it your not married.......that the only reason i could think for you to think that way if BTW if you need explaination YOUR NOT MARRIED or are am haaretz......
53
Dec 16, 2008 at 02:29 AM Miss Williamsburg Says:
“ chasidishe women don't go swimming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ”
Right, I wonder how our Chassidishe life-guard in camp got her license. Wait a second....Why did we need a life-guard, we don't go swimming..........
At a second glance at your post. If it was indeed sarcasm then consider my response sarcastic as well.
54
Dec 16, 2008 at 08:30 AM Anonymous Says:
I'm a grantwriter. Officially, anything that's used SOLELY for religious purposes doesn't qualify for government money. However, I successfully wrote a grant for a mikveh & it was funded (in part) by the City of..... It's up & running. It depends how good a grantwriter you are!
Of course, this case seems somewhat different because it's part of a much larger facility, so I don't know how it was justified. I find it very hard to believe this wasn't piggy-backed on something else.
What concerns me is that soon, the KJ bubble will burst. I know of organizations who had to pay back govt. money because they didn't use it properly or keep perfect records. I am amazed KJ hasn't bankrupted itself yet. They seem to be incredibly inefficient once they get the $$, but superb at getting it. What do they promise govt. officials? To get the kind of money we're talking about there has to be a quid pro quo somewhere. At this point it's not just good contacts.
55
Dec 17, 2008 at 02:52 PM Anonymous Says:
according to my knowledge, women staying at the home will not need to use the mikva while there - remember: it's a WOMEN'S Home.
what is the point in having a mikva on premises?
If it will be open to other women not staying at the home, why cover it up?