An outsider visiting Crown Heights might be forgiven for thinking that the women in the ultra-Orthodox neighborhood represent the height of modesty. But some in the Brooklyn community, where the Chabad-Lubavitch movement is based, are concerned that modesty standards are slipping, and have launched a campaign to counter the trend.
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Thus far, the effort— organized by a woman named Sheyna Goldin, with the approval of Chabad’s women’s organization, N’Shei Chabad—has involved putting up 500 posters encouraging adherence to modesty laws. But not everyone in the organization agrees with Goldin’s approach, and a frisson of disagreement has broken out over it—and whether the declining standards are even anything new.
“It’s Not Just a Good Idea, IT’S THE LAW!” proclaim the posters, which appeared recently on Kingston Avenue and other neighborhood thoroughfares. The fliers go on to list the laws of tznius, or modesty (modest dress must begin at age three; shirts must cover collarbones; skirts must cover knees) and their talmudic sources. Fine print at the bottom explains the spiritual rewards for modest dress and the consequences for disregarding it.
Even in Crown Heights, such public pronouncements of religious law are unusual—which was the point, Goldin argued.
“Everything is out in the street now; it’s kind of corresponding to the times,” she said, in an interview with Nextbook. “In the shuls, not everyone would see it. It’s more emphatic, like we really mean business.”
“You have to set the standard, not lower yourself to it,” echoed Esther Rochel Spielman, who coordinates subscriptions for N’Shei Chabad’s newsletter. Spielman said that she was seeing more short or slit skirts and tight clothing on young women in the community.
“There is a decline in the men also, the teenagers,” she added. “A lot of them will think it’s cool to go without tsisis [ritual fringes].”
But even some who agree that modesty standards are slipping find Goldin’s approach too aggressive.
“Modesty standards have been declining for decades,” said Bronya Shaffer, a mother of 10 who teaches and lectures in the community on Jewish family life. Shaffer, who was sitting in her dining room surrounded by hundreds of religious books, picked up a copy of the New York Times Magazine that was lying on the table beside a copy of a Chabad magazine and gestured disapprovingly at a risqué Chanel advertisement on the back cover. But the posters also made her wince.
“The medium itself is antithetical to the very essence of modesty,” she said of the posters. “It’s not the Chabad way. I cringe at the specter of kids, young boys and girls, reading in huge letters, in bold technicolor, about uncovered legs and necklines and tight clothing.”
Goldin said that the posters are directed toward both Lubavitchers who live in the neighborhood and visitors to the community.
“The darkness in the world is very great and influences everybody,” Goldin said. “The posters are a fortification and a reminder that this is really not just a nice thing, but a total law from the Torah.”
Sara Labkowski, the dean of a school for young women in the process of becoming more religious, said that because Crown Heights, unlike more isolated ultra-Orthodox enclaves, is “a very open community” located in the heart of Brooklyn, the posters would help to remind young Lubavitchers in the neighborhood of the modesty laws. She helped to distribute flyer-sized versions of the poster at a vigil for the Chabad emissaries killed in the recent terrorist attack on Mumbai.
For Spielman, the decline in modesty is just another sign of what she believes is directly on the horizon.
“I guess we’re getting very close to the moshiach,” she said, using the Hebrew word for messiah. “The satan [devil] tries to attack in any ways he could.”
Totally not true.Motzi shem ra.Lubavitchers always try the most
Kol Hakovod! its about time!
Lubavitch is a wonderful community–they do things nobody ever thinks of but tzinus was never very high on the list of what the girls learned. It’s about time someone is talking about it!!
I was so happy to see this article, Tzniut is a top priority for Jewish women, and as a Hasidic women I try my best to dress with utmost Tzniut and I would like to see the same from all other Yiddishe Veiblach, A Happy Chanuka to all!
its also about time the bp rabbis come out with the same rules . modesty doesnt nesecarily mean past knees and neck line . A person can be fully dressed and stiil have modesty issues which i see in bp, flatbush all the time!
oh sure, this will work….just like it’s “worked” in the (non-chabad) chassidishe community. when they went after this in kiryas yoel the young ladies were saying to each other “who told these men to be looking at us?” the same will happen here
its about time ahin its about time ahair crown heights has this problem for a long time yes dressing modestly is less temtation bp is not like that i know from stories where this led to worse matters in crown heights stop being focused on kiruv so much begin charty at home
Please, will some good lady call Ms. Goldin and bring this campaign to Flatbush. C’mon, ladies…
They forgot to write anything about sheitlach, and tichels and exposing hair.
i live in crown heights. there;s a huge tznius craze going around.. speakers are popping up everywhere, shiurim, disscussion groups, etc. its very nice in all, but who do u think will show up to these preaching events? definately not the ones who need it most…
laws written by men
I was on a trip to Niagra Falls, when a group of Lubavitcha girls came over to our group and asked if we can answer some questions. ( they were doing a school project) One of the questions were, what is tznious? Some girls answered to wear long sleaves, long skirts and so on. Nobody answered NOT TO WEAR TIGHT CLOTHING! I told them that tight clothing is usser., Those girls from Lubavitch dressed with such tight clothing, I thought to myself, HOW ARE THEY ABLE TO BREATHE? After listening to my answer, they just walked away as if I insulted them. What about their provocative jewelry. Some of them parade around looking like gypsies. Yes, they daven and say tehilim etc. But when it comes to tznious, they need to improve!!!
we need a lot of work tznius in our community i was by weeding not so long ago and you can see they are strating to change there was a mecitza in the lobby but must be we need to get to this length that it must be made so public and lets hope it iproves so we will see less problems
I live in Crown Heights. I have married daughters & never, ever have I been ashamed of their level of Tznius. You will NEVER see my daughters bare legged, with short slit skirts, or a tichel (even if it’s fully covering); sheitels ONLY, as per the Rebbe’s directives.
So why IS there an issue? Primarily, it starts with the mothers. If mothers do not stick to their guns & give in on “little” things, before long the “little” infractions become major, & then they wonder what happened.
I had a great system, which I’ve discussed many times before. As long as we were paying for their clothes, this was the deal: we BOTH had to approve an outfit. It’s that simple! I couldn’t impose my (lousy) taste on my kids (oh, I did try!!) & they couldn’t get away with little short-cuts here & there. By the time they were in Seminary, choosing carefully was ingrained.
Once, my mother took my eldest daughter shopping. She was 18, in Sem, & had gone to visit Bubby. My mother picked up a suit which was totally tzniut (ie long skirt, no slit) & it was very expensive as I recall. She called me kvelling because Chanie had told her, no Bubby, Mom won’t approve, it’s too bright…a shade lighter or darker, less vivid, & it would have been perfect.
B”H, my little granddaughters have the same idea. They tell their mommies that they need new skirts, because “people can see my knees”.
Secondly, & most importantly, the problem lies with their husbands as well. Young Chassanim want trophy wives: stick thin, long sheitels, full make-up all day, & tight, bright clothing. Why? Guess they like their wives to be noticed by their friends & ergo, THEY are admired.
Wanting to make their husbands happy, many girls go along with these ideas, although by no means all. Some are very happy to look like that…why, I don’t know. A need for attention, perhaps. Whatever the reason, if young men are taught that their wives’ beauty is for their eyes only, this fad of “look at me, notice me” will decline.
My sons are not looking for trophy wives. Of course, they want wives who dress well, wear make-up, keep clean homes & raise great kids…just like their sisters. Of course they want attractive wives. That’s healthy & normal. However, they don’t want wives who are admired by other men & viewed jealously by other women. That brings us to a whole new set of problems, not for here, although I have plenty to say on that.
Do I agree with these fliers? Yes & no. They are a good start, but I’m afraid that somebody will take it into his/her head to begin a Meah Shearim-type Tznius patrol to bombard “untznius” women with harrassment. That’s not the answer…the answer begins in kindergarten.
One of the problems within Chabad is that the majority women go out on shluchus to places where they feel they need to represent a more modern type of Rebbetzin who can compete with any movie star in her elegant appearance. Modesty is not only sleeve length and collars. Can a woman be modest in a $4000 sheital that she can ‘t help but shake back from her shoulders in a suggestive manner? Is she modest if she feels she must wear a $2000 Escada suit in order to gain the respect of the affluent women in her kehilla? Is a woman modest if she is trying to be a part of the conflicting worlds of “glamorous” and “frum”?
Nearly all Chabad women participate in shluchus at one point or another, it would be impossible for the outside influences not to come into Crown Hts. Add to that the large percentage of women in the community who are baalei teshuva or converts to Judaism or the daughters and granddaughters of women who were not raised with tznius or any other standards of observant Jewish life and you can perhaps see that tznius is a more difficult mitzvah for Chabad women than for other Chassidic groups which seem to dress more tznius.
Lubavitchers are one of the best in tznius
very important issue for all jews. it’s nice to see chabad raisimg awareness.
I am a open minded shassidish young woman living in BP> I go to Crown Heights on occasion and have most recently been there for the simchas beis hashoava even this year. I went with my husband for the first time. for a week after yom tov we were still discussing the total lack of tznius of the girls. they have no concept of necklines or skirt hems. Most of the married women we saw had at least some hairs exposed on their heads. my husband has a lubavitz young woman that works for him and she has all her hair sticking out all over the place- not just the front.
I think that yes, lubavitz girls are very frum and everything, but according to the chassidish community, which i believe they are a part of (as opposed to people in Flatbush and other non chassidish areas)they are probably the lowest graded in tznius standards. Sorry- its just a fact. this is not to put down the small minority in CH that does dress appropriately- they are doing a fine job- but they are not the ones that represent the majority there- sorry.
And what about the chassidish woman who wear skirts just around the knees?
Those that scream the loudest, have the problem with their daughters or find that their husbands are turning their head when a girl walks by, I suggest to just work on yourself, if everybody that was busy bullying everyone just took care of their own house we wouldn’t have this or other issues.
Taliban is coming to the Jewish community near you
may this cizuk of tznius be in memory of our beloved freinds rebbi & reb. holtzberg O”H HY”D.
we should only hear bsoros tovos
gut shabbos
a freilichen chanikah
What people don’t understand is that among mainstream Lubavitch Tznius is NOT an issue. What you outsiders need to realize is that Chabad, and Crown Heights in particular has the highest rate of “moderned out” (i.e. bummy, fry, barely frum, off the derech) locals that STAY in Crown Heights. Unlike Lakewood or Boro Park, when those communities children fry out, or “modern” out they LEAVE so they don’t drag down the tznius or whatever else levels.
In Crown Heights, (and this is a good thing, I think) people don’t ever truly leave and they stay and have a better chance of getting back on the right track because they want to be near other Lubavitcher. It’s THOSE people I think we see a lot of who dress like this and therefore think Lubavitch as a whole has this issue.
If the fried out or bummy young married couples from Lakewood and Boro Park would STAY in Boro Park and Lakewood you’d think THEY have a more serious problem than they do.
You have to look at the positive of everything, and in this case, like it or not, I think this says volumes about Chabad. Even their off the derech sons and daughter want to be near shuls and proper schools and this causes them to eventfully return all the way.
If the shoe fits, wear it, There is no harm in reminding people of a very important facet of Judaism. The responsible leaders of Chabad also realized that times have changed when it came to changing the venue of Simchas Beis HaShoeiva to more tzniusdike places.The teachings of the Rebbe ZY”A are clear and only need to be reinforced from time to time.
There is no harm in emphasizing Tznius as opposed to talking about Moshiach a whole day. Those who TRULY want Moshiach will raise their standard in all things including Tznius.
Kol HaKavod
the chabad women in the center of the community are dressed modestly but when you get to the outskirts you see boys hanging out with girls and the girls are wearing tight shirts or skirts with big slits in them.
its about time there is a crackdown.
Number 35 !, be very careful about mistankenly quoting a talmid chacham like Rav Ovadia Yosef. You better be darn sure you know what you speak of, if you’re going to post such an inflammatory statement like that. I challenge you to quote his exact words, and the precise time and place where he made that statement. Do it now!
LOL!!! if the shoe fits!!
You will obviously see girls that are less tzniusdik in CH, since people from all backgrounds are welcome to Lubavitch. Such people are not welcome to other frum communities.
The vast majority of Lubavitch girls and married women all started their Chinuch in Beis Rivkah School for girls.
The Beis Rivkah school, officially preaches Tnius, but the children pick up more of what the teachers do, much more so than from what they preach and teach to the children.
Officially for example, Beis Rivkah teaches that Girls should not go to College, but but the Children secretly say “talk back at them”, saying “who do you think you are kidding” when they children see, whom does Beis Rivkah hires to be their highest paid teachers and principals – you guessed it, they hire teachers (Lubavitchers) with college degrees and what is worse is that they show them the “highest respect” for this very reason because they are college graduates.
This is teaching children HYPOCROCY.
What a Beis Rivkah girl learns BY EXAMPLE is that if she is to be RESPECTED she must go to college and get a degree like all those schools most respected so called “elite Lubavitchers” and so called “Shpitz Chabad”.
The same is true with Tznius in the Beis Rivkah educational system. The most highly respected and most ELITE teachers of the Choshevste Meyuchasim who Head Beis Rivkah, who teach Limudey Kodesh and Limudey Chol, don’t dress Halachicaly correct (to say the least).
Girls in beis rivkah learn by what they SEE from their teachers and principals (Hebrew and Secular) and not from the hypocritical verbal teachings, which contradicts what they teachers and PRINCIPLAS actualy do (dress) daily.
The above problem is what prompted a breakaway new school, called Bnos Menachem to correct this lack of tznius perpetrated by the HANHALA!
The New Lubavitch school for girls called Benos Menachem was created for the one and only reason of combating the lack of Tznius caused by the HANHALA and teachers of Beis Rivkah.
Students learn by example of what they see and not by what you preach to them.
who cares! There are such problems and poverty issues in the world! Maybe if people would work on being just a little bit nicer to their friends and neighbors and not looking at other peoples knees the world would be a better place and hasem would be a lot happier with us!
shame on you,you are what we call NOVOL BIRSHUS HATORAH, i am sure u have a agenda against beis rivkah, there are1800 kids there and there will always be some bad apples, i dont know what principals are not dressed tzniusdik there, the other so called school that opened is not a mosad that the rebbe gave his name to, and yes try and not pay tuition there, we all know why M G has opned that school, he neded another place to wash money, if you dont pay your kid will fly out no mercy, beis rivka keeps everyone even if thier parants cant afford to pay, o and one more thing, talk about tznius, i will not name some parants here, but take a drive in the morning and see some of the mothers putting theier daughters on the bnos menachem bus, or then see them in the street during the day, tznius is the furthest thing from them, i guess u decided to wash the dirty laundry here, you are a hypocrit, and u should be ashemd to talk like that about a mossad that was so dear to the rebbe
Tziyus is probably one of the most challenging mitzvahs out there for woman today. There is a very strong current in the world today to dress with great modern style. There may even be peer pressure to dress in a less modest way. There are many easy to go about trying to influence people to better ways. This is a stronger moiré aggressive approve.
What A Great Deed Indeed Keep Up The Good Work.
while the lubavitch community reaches out to others and does things that no one else would even consider doing tznuis is a major problem among the girls and women in crown heights. i am someone who is involved firsthand with the lubavitch community and have personally watched this problem escalate over the years. while tznuis is a problem on some level in majority of the jewish communities the tznuis problem in ch has really gone too far. many other communities begin with tznuis at an older age than lubavitch does, so yes there are some children in ch that from the age of 3 are completely tznuis, but most of them, at an age much older that 3, are not. i am glad to see that somone is finally taking charge and doing something to try and fix this issue.
As someone whose parents could not afford to pay ANY tuition who was frum and did not belong to any particular branch and approached school after school and only LUBAVITCH agreed to take in myself and my two siblings for FREE during my growing up years including “High School”. I will forever be grateful to Lubavitch for what they did for us!! We are all married today to Chasidishe heimishe families and have married off our children in the same derech (although not Lubavitch because it wasnt bashert)! Thank you LUBAVITCH for saving our “neshamas” and allowing us to receive a Yiddish Education!! Keep up the wonderful work you are doing. May Hashem repay you in kind for everything you always do!
let me wear my skirt over my knee!! is it better for a BT to wear her over the knee skirt or should she go back to jeans??
it might be a step up for a girl to wear such clothes. dont judge. we all have things to work on. should they start putting posters up for men to have more kavanah in shul too?
Whats next, the Hijab?
to #43 :
How DARE you attack Beis Rivkah. I am in high school and while I have many complaints against the system, I have not ONE against tznius. The BR teachers have the HIGHEST level of tznius. Each teacher covers everything to the extent that if a teacher is wearing something not 100%, or if we can see her collarbone, we girls are abuzz with that latest piece of gossip – while for the students this type of dress is probably the norm. The English department, to be truthful, is not as careful in tznius as is the Hebrew – on the other hand, how can you possibly compare a history teacher to one teaching the Rebbe’s Torah? (Which is not to say that they should not both be tznius, but that in the secular teacher’s case it is not a hypocrisy and we are not as bothered.) And as for college – I am so disgusted with your claims. BR does not say a word for or against university and we certainly don’t talk about the teacher’s attending college or not. In any case, nowadays a degree can be obtained through online courses or Touro or through some other such kosher way.
Who gives you the right to attack the Rebbe’s school? As a student, of course I talk out against my school; do I mean it? Not at all – it is simply a student’s griping. But I can still appreciate that I am attending a Lubavitch school, and the Rebbe’s at that. I certainly do not go around making preposterous and pejorative claims, especially unfounded, in public forums. Shame on you. Your ignorance is pathetic to behold, and one thing that I can say for certain is that you definitely did not gain from your school years. “Hypocrosy”, your horrific lack of grammar – if you are going to say something, have the decency to say it correctly and with class. And I will not comment on the Bnos Menachem part. Get your facts straight and your head screwed on right.
This goes back to what I once said about other issues in Lubavitch. Yes, #13 , you may have seen come Lubavitch girls with tight clothing. But even if they were from the core of Lubavitch (insiders), which you can’t possibly know, as opposed to BT girls who were becoming frummer, even so, this is not Lubavitch.
Lubavitch is what the Rebbe defined, and he was very makpid on tznius, as posted elsewhere. So I am very pleased to see this chizuk in tzniyus.
i was at the sheitel macher a few weeks ago and a women walked in with a wig but looked so imodest everyone in the room was imbaressed for her. the sheitel macher kept telling the women she did not have what she wanted and she should try to get it in her neighborhood crown heights. Its sad that this is what is has come to i went to camp gan israel as a child in London even though i was not lubavich and all the girls i grew up with i am glad to say are nice frum tznius mothers today unfortuatly it is the younger generation that is in a loosing battle with tzinius they can be very learned in Tanya, chumish and Thehillim but if this mitzvah of tznius is not kept then every thing else is meaningless.
Alot of girls in general get turned off from frumkeit and the first thing that goes is tznius. By shooving things down people’s throats, like lubavitch does, is not going to help the situation. You have to make it seem normal and the cool thing to do, not by putting pressure- it creates the opposite effect- and will have a rebound effect. FYI, when I was growing up, it was always known that lubavitch girls were “easy”, they get caught up in the realm of what lubavitch really is. They see the guys with scruffly beards trying to brainwash people, eventhough they really mean well, and on the other hand- they see the “good girls” going out on shlichut (which is not meant for everyone).
Why do you think all the boys run to lubavitch on simchos bais hashieva to see the GIRLS!!
Nebach its looong over due
kudos!
at least someone has the guts to put this in writing. hate to say it but the “frum” style has become to pritzusdik.
Let’s all take care of our own people we all need a tikun in
Tzenius …a freiliche and listige chanukah and moshiach should come bekorov mamush …
A not frum friend went to visit Crown Heights for the weekend and she was the one who told me about the posters. To quote her,”I really tried to be more tznius in Crown Heights. There were all these posters I passed that helped me remember how.” She also mentioned that she wasn’t aware of all the laws until seeing those posters and that she is going to try to be more tznius in the future.
I feel vindicated I live in CH and I basically dress like in the 50’s my husband doesnt mind it at all..He actually tells me its hip,I dress like a collecters item, most of my stuff I get on Ebay for fraction of a $ okay here we go it just feels so good when I know that my dress costed only 50 cents + shipping. I mean who cares who wore it before I have a washing machine after all for a reason. So bottom Line I could dress up pretty well for $5 plus i will tell you a secret you could get used shaitlach for almost nothing
I am a BT and I’d like to let you people know that BTs know all about knees and elbows and necklines, but it is theory. But when you go out and see FFBs dressing untzniusdik you (a BT) start to think “Hell why not, Ive also got something to show. Why should we all cover up when there are frummies who have their clothes a bit too tight and too short?”
Don’t blame BTs, because they don’t learn from the book, they learn from what they see in the streets of frum communities. We dont have other ways to learn because we were not raised in tzniyus, and those who are should set an example.
BS”D
Speaking from the men’s side of the mechitzah, this whole business about a man being aroused is the wrong way to approach tznius. The right way is to say that tznius is the hallmark of a bas melech (just as for male Chassidim certain forms of dress show us and the world who we are) and that when you dress properly, everyone sees you as what you are – someone who wants to make sure she is always regarded as what she is inside.
Fact is, any man who is busy looking at legs is a perv, plain and simple. But since burqas are out of the question now that Rebbetzin Bruria Burqa has been exposed (no pun intended) for the meshigginer that she is, the fact is that men and women will see how you are dressed – and if you are dressed up to (male or female) standard especially because you are taught to feel this is the way it should be, you will be looked upon (no pun again) as a sterling representative of a Jew in general and of your community’s standards in particular.
When I lived in CH, not only did I not want to look at the legs of those who were in violation of tznius, I was embarrassed to look at them bichlal because to me they were a reflection of all the worst that CH has to offer. And the worst part was when one woman who made me turn my head into the street turned out to be my friend’s wife. who is in no way one of the “bums” – and indeed what she was wearing did not reflect who she really is.
So dressing properly means that you want to show the world who you really are – a bas (or ben) melech. Dressing otherwise either is a symbol of rebellion and lack of real belief, or, in this particular case, a weakness that amounts to lehavdil putting an illustration from the cover of Cosmo or whatever on the cover of a sefer kodesh.
Dressing Tzniustically has nothing to do with men. It is how a woman presents herself outside her home to everyone!!.. It means dressing nice enough to feel good about yourself, but not to call attention to oneself. It is not only length of sleeve and skirt, it is fit and color. It is tastefull jewelry not jewelry that will cause people – men or women to stare. It is an “attitude” of modestly.
Little girls want to look “pretty” and young ladies want to “look fashionable”. It is a difficult, but necessary concept to teach our daughters that “looking pretty” DOES NOT mean “look at me.”
The ONLY way to teach our girls to dress this way, is to dress this way ourselves. To shop with our girls and “show” the difference between pretty and offensive. It takes time, it takes effort, but it is a primary job of a mom to follow through all the time, every day, day in and day out.
It is the same as reminding our daughters to make a bracha, it is who we are, it is what we do and it is non-negotiable.
It’s a fact the most of the time, people who wear a Tichel always have hair sticking out.
Next time you are in the street, look out for it and you will see it 100% of the time without fail that nearly all women in Crown Heights who wear a Tichel in the street, you will see it 100% of the time that their hair always sticks out from all sides 100% of the time.
On the other hand women in Crown Heights who wear a Shaitel will not have hair sticking out, not even 1% of the time.
That’s why the Rebbe insisted in Shaitles, because it works, in our day and age, A Tichel worked years ago but doesn’t work well for most women in this century.