Welcome, Guest! - or
Easy to remember!  »  VinNews.com

New York City - Yeshiva University Gives Platform To Famous Apikores

Published on: December 31, 2008 09:17 AM
By: VIN News
Change text size Text Size  
Dr. James KugelDr. James Kugel

New York City - Perhaps the most famous living controversial Apikores in the world is professor James Kugel, formerly of Harvard University, and now teaching at an Israeli University.  Dr. Kugel is the author of a book  that proclaims that the Torah is not of Divine origin, and attempts to demonstrate that later authors purposefully invented and supplemented the entire Torah.  Thus for example, in the world of Kugel, the incident with Dinah and Schem came much later and was later interpolated in the Torah.  In Kugel’s world the story of Yoseph and Mitzrayim was entirely a work of fiction and Wellhausen’s anti-semitic theories as to biblical origins are presented as fact.

Advertisement:

On Thursday December 11th, Kugel delivered a lecture to a packed audience at Yeshiva University Stern College for Women. the full transcript of the event can be read here here .

What is most shocking is that the event was organized by a supposedly religious organization new student organization - TEIQU: A Torah Exploration of Ideas, Questions and Understanding. A founder of this organization stated, “It goes without saying that we are honored to invite Dr. Kugel onto our campus and study midrash with him.”  That person went on to state, “Dr. Kugel is a world renowned scholar and authority on Bible. Many students, particularly those who have studied his works in classes at SCW and YC, are excited for the privilege of studying with Dr. Kugel.”
The lecture was also sponsored by the Torah Activities Council and Yeshiva Student Union.

Rabbi Dr. Mordechai Cohen who is a professor of Bible at SCW and Associate Dean of the Bernard Revel Graduate School, “James Kugel is a world-renowned scholar who has made enormous contributions to our understanding of Tanakh and its interpretation by Hazal, and it is therefore a unique and valuable opportunity to have him come and speak at Yeshiva University.”
When asked about the controversial aspects of Kugel’s work, Dr. Cohen asserted: “It is true that Professor Kugel’s views on biblical authorship are not those of traditional Orthodoxy and that, no doubt, is the source of the controversy. However, in my opinion, Yeshiva University’s educational ideals demand that we not limit ourselves to learning only from those who share our precise hashkafa.”
The Rambam in Hilchot Teshuva 3:8 writes that whomsoever denies the Divine origin of even one verse or one word is considered a Kofer. The Shulchan Aruch further codifies this law in Yore Deah 158:2. The Talmud (Avoda Zara 17a) states that one must stay very far away from all heretics, heresy and idolatry.
Imagine for one moment if Maimonides, or the author of the Shulchan Aruch or the Vilna Gaon were alive today.  Any intellectually honest Yeshiva University administrator, student, or graduate would admit that each and every one of them would not have agreed to this decision by Yeshiva University.  But then again, they probably would not have been the one’s making the decisions there in the first place.

Interesting to note when the scandal of Madoff first broke the president of YU sent a letter  about the scandal that was shocking in what it did not mention.  There was no mention of HaKadosh Boruch Hu.  The letter read like a letter that could have come from any non-Jewish university. Perhaps it should be said that YU should have had the genuine respect for Divine authorship of the Torah that is called for in the Talmud, the Rambam, and the Shulchan Aruch.



More of today's headlines

Sana'a, Yemen - The primary court of Amran resumed today in the trial of the suspect accused of killing a Jew citizen, Moshe Yaish Nahari. The court delayed the... Woodmere, NY - No fine will be levied against the landlord who owns the Woodmere storefront on Broadway where a car careened into a Hanukkah party, a Hempstead Town...

 

Total152

Read Comments (152)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Dec 31, 2008 at 09:26 AM Yitzchok Says:

Yeshiva U. is no longer a relevant institution, The Yeshiva and The University are both 2nd rate at best, it draws on jews from the diaspora outside of New York and Israel, where most of the kids going there have never had a Yeshiva education and therefore it is a novel concept that makes both the parent and the child happy. So for someone from say Columbus, Ohio. or Winnipeg it's the perfect choice. Today kids from new York that have any bit of "Seichel" are going to real Universities like NYU, Columbia, even Harvard and Yale.

2

 Dec 31, 2008 at 09:21 AM Anonymous Says:

Disturbing stuff...but the paragraph at the end is unnecessary.

3

 Dec 31, 2008 at 09:30 AM HAGTBG Says:

Please be accurate. James Kugel believes the Torah is of Divine Origin, i.e. from G-d and that it is obligatory to follow halacha. What he does not accept is that everything it says is historically true.

Finally, for someone to try to write psak as to James Kugel in the middle of an article - or to insert the Madoff scandal which is irrelevant to this - is simply irresponsible and speaks to bias.

4

 Dec 31, 2008 at 09:29 AM Anonymous Says:

I think it is about time that YU removes the word "Orthodox" from its institutional ideology. A school which rolls out the red carpet for a man who falls under every halachic definiton of an apikores cannot be considered orthodox in any sense of the word.

5

 Dec 31, 2008 at 09:31 AM Anonymous Says:

Yitzchok
what is G-d's name are you talking of.
There may be significant issues with how and what the University does (or does not) do, However, no one (even in the chareidi camp)would deny the authenticity scholarship and erudition of the Roshei Hayeshiva and the majority of the serious bnei torah that learn in their beis hamedrash.
You have a bit of introspection to do before you write your next post as an apology may be in order.

6

 Dec 31, 2008 at 09:34 AM Anonymous Says:

Maybe he will teach them how much 2 + 2 is.

So they will be able to make up their mind once and for all if they lost 14 mill or 110 mil.

It takes very big Chachomim and Geonim and biggest Professors to figure it out.

7

 Dec 31, 2008 at 09:41 AM Anonymous Says:

how many of you have actually gone to YU before begin bashing it.

8

 Dec 31, 2008 at 09:46 AM Anonymous Says:

Near the beginning of the article you write, "Thus for example, in the world of Kugel, the incident with Dinah and Schem...". It should be, "Thus for example in the world of Kugel there are a lot of lokshen."

9

 Dec 31, 2008 at 09:52 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
HAGTBG Says:

Please be accurate. James Kugel believes the Torah is of Divine Origin, i.e. from G-d and that it is obligatory to follow halacha. What he does not accept is that everything it says is historically true.

Finally, for someone to try to write psak as to James Kugel in the middle of an article - or to insert the Madoff scandal which is irrelevant to this - is simply irresponsible and speaks to bias.

there is an accepted klal in the torah of ain mudam umeuchar btora which means that many things are not written in the historic order they were written in. I don't see why everyone is so negative here

10

 Dec 31, 2008 at 09:51 AM Anonymous Says:

It is unfortunate that RIETS a makom Torah would give a platform to Prof Kugel. Although he claims to be a shomer mitvos and I have no reason to doubt that he does follow the religious rituals outlined in Shulchan Aruch, his attitudes towards Tanach are clearly in opposition to everything RIETS rebbeim, even the most "modern" of them teach their talmidim and beleive.

11

 Dec 31, 2008 at 09:56 AM joel rich Says:

Yitzchok,
I believe your statements with regard to YU enrollment are not supported by the facts.

I agree that Richard Joel's letter was somewhat lacking but not sure why that's relevant here?

Is Dr. Kugel an apikores, I don't know but from the transcript of the talk, it's hard to prove it. Do you believe that every letter in the Torah is as HKB"H gave to Moshe? If so, how do you explain the diferences between an ashkenazi and sfardi sefer torah (and once one letter is different, it proves the point)

Kol Tuv
Joel Rich YC '73

12

 Dec 31, 2008 at 10:13 AM Anonymous Says:

this farshtinkene kugel needs a doctor, why do they call him a doctor.

the gedoilei yisroel of yesteryear have already defined YU, no need for anybody to explain who they are. there might have fallen in some good boys, but it is to there great misfortune.
It's a pity yu didnt loose everything to madoff

13

 Dec 31, 2008 at 10:01 AM Anonymous Says:

yu is an example of compromisejust like cunservartive
or reform its a bridge from yidishkait to becoming a goy
yu is in prosess of doing just that

14

 Dec 31, 2008 at 10:36 AM Anonymous Says:

You seem to be confusing different parts of YU here. The RIETS rabbeim and talmidim had nothing to do with this event. Whether it's a good thing or not, the fact is that students at YU can organize events on their own without them being approved by the Roshei Yeshiva. This even was put together by some students who spend very little time in the Beis Medrash and in no way reflects on the serious B'nai Torah and Rabbeim at RIETS who were probably all outraged by the event, as they should be.

-a RIETS student

15

 Dec 31, 2008 at 10:35 AM michal Says:

Reply to #2  
Anonymous Says:

Disturbing stuff...but the paragraph at the end is unnecessary.

No it's not. It is very telling what YU stands for.

16

 Dec 31, 2008 at 10:46 AM Anonymous Says:

this is what happens when you have that berger guy incharge of religious study or what ever high up position he has

17

 Dec 31, 2008 at 10:42 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
Yitzchok Says:

Yeshiva U. is no longer a relevant institution, The Yeshiva and The University are both 2nd rate at best, it draws on jews from the diaspora outside of New York and Israel, where most of the kids going there have never had a Yeshiva education and therefore it is a novel concept that makes both the parent and the child happy. So for someone from say Columbus, Ohio. or Winnipeg it's the perfect choice. Today kids from new York that have any bit of "Seichel" are going to real Universities like NYU, Columbia, even Harvard and Yale.

what kind of source do you have? last i checked, YU was ranked by US World and News Report in the top 50. and its 2007 undergraduate enrollment was 3,017 students (not to mention the 3,341 graduate students).
source: http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/college/items/2903

18

 Dec 31, 2008 at 10:42 AM Are we surprised about YU Says:

y not??? Most of "YU" is not Y. The "Y" part dreads this "publicity." I wonder when the Y will ceceed from the U?

19

 Dec 31, 2008 at 10:38 AM Michal Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

Yitzchok
what is G-d's name are you talking of.
There may be significant issues with how and what the University does (or does not) do, However, no one (even in the chareidi camp)would deny the authenticity scholarship and erudition of the Roshei Hayeshiva and the majority of the serious bnei torah that learn in their beis hamedrash.
You have a bit of introspection to do before you write your next post as an apology may be in order.

I agree. Rabbi Schachter and Rabbi Willig and others are talmidei chachamim. But I have to question why they did not protest this gathering for an apikores.

20

 Dec 31, 2008 at 10:31 AM baruch Says:

Shades of Mendelsohn, Batman! It's t'chiyas hamaisim. Moses Mendelsohn has returned from the dead and Y.U. has him.

21

 Dec 31, 2008 at 10:18 AM chaver Says:

Mikol melamdai hiskalti

22

 Dec 31, 2008 at 09:54 AM browser Says:

I disagree strongly with Yitzchok. Firstly, there are many, many NYC kids enrolled in YU. Secondly, is a Jew from Columbus or Winnipeg any less worthy of an honest view of yiddishkeit than a kid from New York? Having personally met many sincere baalei teshuva from out of town who are or were studying in YU and Stern precisely because it was the Jewish College, I think that it is worse for these kids to hear apikorsus at this precarious time in their lives when they are trying to become frum and develop a jewish perspective on life. Kids from a frum backgroud will hopefully have more of an ability to shrug off apikorsus, while newly BT or not-yet-BT kids may not know how to parse the truth from the fiction.

23

 Dec 31, 2008 at 09:43 AM Anonymous Says:

Didn't YU used to be an "orthodox" school? Now it has gay groups, transgender teachers, apikorsim guest speakers, & goodness knows what else.

I couldn't care less what weird/disgusting/abhorrent/immoral things people do, but don't wrap them up as "Kosher" & expect the rest of us to buy them. #5 praises the Roshei Yeshiva & yet we never hear a word of condemnation from them. The old NIMBY defense? NMJ? I'd like to see the Rabbonim who train future leaders of the Jewish community (sic) open their mouths & address the issues that their governing body thinks are fit for YU.

24

 Dec 31, 2008 at 09:38 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
HAGTBG Says:

Please be accurate. James Kugel believes the Torah is of Divine Origin, i.e. from G-d and that it is obligatory to follow halacha. What he does not accept is that everything it says is historically true.

Finally, for someone to try to write psak as to James Kugel in the middle of an article - or to insert the Madoff scandal which is irrelevant to this - is simply irresponsible and speaks to bias.

HAGTBG - Your argument in defense of Mr. Kugel is completely illogical. If Mr. Kugel believes that the Torah is of Divine origin, then how can also believe that it is "historically inaccurate" at the same time? You're essentially saying he believes that the Torah is BOTH true and false. Please explain this completely irrational line of reasoning.

25

 Dec 31, 2008 at 11:03 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
Yitzchok Says:

Yeshiva U. is no longer a relevant institution, The Yeshiva and The University are both 2nd rate at best, it draws on jews from the diaspora outside of New York and Israel, where most of the kids going there have never had a Yeshiva education and therefore it is a novel concept that makes both the parent and the child happy. So for someone from say Columbus, Ohio. or Winnipeg it's the perfect choice. Today kids from new York that have any bit of "Seichel" are going to real Universities like NYU, Columbia, even Harvard and Yale.

A new way to categorize and furhter fracture yidden -if they come from say Columbus or Winnipeg then ok, but if they come from Brooklyn, well, then that's another story.

26

 Dec 31, 2008 at 11:01 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

Maybe he will teach them how much 2 + 2 is.

So they will be able to make up their mind once and for all if they lost 14 mill or 110 mil.

It takes very big Chachomim and Geonim and biggest Professors to figure it out.

maybe they should hire you to do it -you are obviously such a chucham smarter than everyone there.

27

 Dec 31, 2008 at 10:57 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #19  
Michal Says:

I agree. Rabbi Schachter and Rabbi Willig and others are talmidei chachamim. But I have to question why they did not protest this gathering for an apikores.

Do you question your rebeim also? or only other people's rebbeim?

28

 Dec 31, 2008 at 11:25 AM Monsey man Says:

....which is why while Lakewood and Satmar are growing exponentially, YU after all these years only graduates 600 undergrads a year. They are sick in the head because they have no idea WHAT they believe in.

29

 Dec 31, 2008 at 11:22 AM Charlie Hall Says:

President Joel's letter was outstanding. It is easy to forget that Yeshiva University employs thousands of people who are not Orthodox or not even Jewish. To use the kind of language that would inspire us who are religious believers would have at best confused those folks, or even worse, turned them off. The last paragraph of President Joel's letter in particular is a mussar call that we should all respond to positively.

Full disclosure: I am on the faculty of one of YU's graduate/professional schools.

More disclosure: Most Shabats I attend the same synagogue as President Joel and sit in the same section. He has inspired me with his Torah and his Tefillah, especially for the Yomim Noraim. I have absolutely no doubt that he respects the Divine Authorship of the Torah and that he wants our university to be run in accordance with what HaShem would want. Furthermore, he appears to be a total mentsch and I have never heard a single word of lashon hara come out of his mouth during the 3 1/2 years I have attended that synagogue; in that he is a model of midot for us all (especially those of us who comment on blogs!).

30

 Dec 31, 2008 at 11:19 AM Anonymous Says:

Did any one here do research on what Dr. Kugel believes or just everyone goes by the article? First do your research then criticize everyone is entitled to the benefit of the doubt.

31

 Dec 31, 2008 at 11:18 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #23  
Anonymous Says:

Didn't YU used to be an "orthodox" school? Now it has gay groups, transgender teachers, apikorsim guest speakers, & goodness knows what else.

I couldn't care less what weird/disgusting/abhorrent/immoral things people do, but don't wrap them up as "Kosher" & expect the rest of us to buy them. #5 praises the Roshei Yeshiva & yet we never hear a word of condemnation from them. The old NIMBY defense? NMJ? I'd like to see the Rabbonim who train future leaders of the Jewish community (sic) open their mouths & address the issues that their governing body thinks are fit for YU.

you gave me a good laugh, yasher koach! :)

- a RIETS student.

p.s. It's funny how ignorant some Yidden are.

32

 Dec 31, 2008 at 11:16 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #23  
Anonymous Says:

Didn't YU used to be an "orthodox" school? Now it has gay groups, transgender teachers, apikorsim guest speakers, & goodness knows what else.

I couldn't care less what weird/disgusting/abhorrent/immoral things people do, but don't wrap them up as "Kosher" & expect the rest of us to buy them. #5 praises the Roshei Yeshiva & yet we never hear a word of condemnation from them. The old NIMBY defense? NMJ? I'd like to see the Rabbonim who train future leaders of the Jewish community (sic) open their mouths & address the issues that their governing body thinks are fit for YU.

Roshei Yeshiva are only worth their salt if they condemn??? What makes you think you can substitute your own judgement as to what to say andwhen to say it for the Rashai yeshiva themselves? Have you considered the matter carefully and taken absolutely everything into acccount that needs to be taken into account? Are you so confident you are a baki in all of the halachos? Are you the mara d'asra there that they should listen to you? Or are you just somone who sees another opening to attack YU?

33

 Dec 31, 2008 at 11:14 AM moishe Says:

he is apikores without 'controversial' ..clear cut...the same with YU..IF ITS UNIVERSITY ITS NOT YESHIVAH IF ITS YESHIVAH ITS NOT UNIVERSITY

34

 Dec 31, 2008 at 11:12 AM Charlie Hall Says:

Reply to #3  
HAGTBG Says:

Please be accurate. James Kugel believes the Torah is of Divine Origin, i.e. from G-d and that it is obligatory to follow halacha. What he does not accept is that everything it says is historically true.

Finally, for someone to try to write psak as to James Kugel in the middle of an article - or to insert the Madoff scandal which is irrelevant to this - is simply irresponsible and speaks to bias.

I thought that what made one Orthodox is precisely the belief in the divinity of the Torah and the authority of the rabbis to decide what is and is not halachah, which must be followed. Did that change recently?

35

 Dec 31, 2008 at 11:12 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #19  
Michal Says:

I agree. Rabbi Schachter and Rabbi Willig and others are talmidei chachamim. But I have to question why they did not protest this gathering for an apikores.

do you question the judgement of your own rabbeim? or only the judgment of other people's rabbeim?

36

 Dec 31, 2008 at 11:35 AM Use Your Head Says:

Reply to #28  
Monsey man Says:

....which is why while Lakewood and Satmar are growing exponentially, YU after all these years only graduates 600 undergrads a year. They are sick in the head because they have no idea WHAT they believe in.

I don't know where you got your education, but I doubt Lakewood and Satmar are growing exponentially. They are almost certainly growing geometrically. I'm guessing you didn't attend YU; with such an education you'd probably know the difference.

37

 Dec 31, 2008 at 11:50 AM Anonymous Says:

i would change his name to cholent but that would be bizayon ochel

38

 Dec 31, 2008 at 11:50 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #24  
Anonymous Says:

HAGTBG - Your argument in defense of Mr. Kugel is completely illogical. If Mr. Kugel believes that the Torah is of Divine origin, then how can also believe that it is "historically inaccurate" at the same time? You're essentially saying he believes that the Torah is BOTH true and false. Please explain this completely irrational line of reasoning.

I believe the writer meant that Dr. Kugel believes the Torah was given to us by Gd at har sinai but later generations made changes to it.

Whether or not his ideas are correct, which I do not believe to be the case, I'm not sure this would put him 'mechutz lamachanah'.

We also believe 100% in the Zohar being written by RSB"Y. Does that mean anyone who doubts this belief is no longer bechezkas kashrus?

While inviting him to speak was stupid and the roshai yeshiva might have found a better way to react rather than ignoring him, it would be prudent to remember that if WE can place him and YU mechutz lamachaneh today, someone else can put NIRC mechutz lamachaneh tomorrow and Chaim Berlin the next, Klausenberg after that, ad ain sof.

39

 Dec 31, 2008 at 11:38 AM david Says:

If one does not agree with every word that the Rambam said, does that turn him into an apikoros? The Rambam was a great scholar and everything, but he was still a human being. The torah isn't like a machine, where if you pull a screw out it doesn't function properly. The torah is complex and its interpretations are complex as well, and we are in no position to judge a another person based on their understanding of torah. We believe and do what we feel is right, but we don't know for sure. And we definitely cannot attack one another because of one disagreement. This lecture had no mandatory attendance policy and no one was obliged to attend. would you rather silence everyone that has one disagreement with you? You wouldn't have who to talk to. Don't we have so much more in common??

40

 Dec 31, 2008 at 11:37 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
Yitzchok Says:

Yeshiva U. is no longer a relevant institution, The Yeshiva and The University are both 2nd rate at best, it draws on jews from the diaspora outside of New York and Israel, where most of the kids going there have never had a Yeshiva education and therefore it is a novel concept that makes both the parent and the child happy. So for someone from say Columbus, Ohio. or Winnipeg it's the perfect choice. Today kids from new York that have any bit of "Seichel" are going to real Universities like NYU, Columbia, even Harvard and Yale.

Irrelavent? Not to the vast majority of frum people who eat OU products. Or to the Orthodox people who daven in Young Isreal across America.

Perhaps irrelavent in your world, but in case you haven't noticed, there is life on the western shores of the Hudson River.

41

 Dec 31, 2008 at 11:37 AM HAGTBG Says:

To #34, Charlie Hall,

James Kugel's views as to when the Torah was given and the historical accuracy of the Torah's recounting of the revelation at Sinai are non-standard from an Orthodox perspective.

42

 Dec 31, 2008 at 11:34 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
HAGTBG Says:

Please be accurate. James Kugel believes the Torah is of Divine Origin, i.e. from G-d and that it is obligatory to follow halacha. What he does not accept is that everything it says is historically true.

Finally, for someone to try to write psak as to James Kugel in the middle of an article - or to insert the Madoff scandal which is irrelevant to this - is simply irresponsible and speaks to bias.

reply to #3
(Please be accurate. James Kugel believes the Torah is of Divine Origin, i.e. from G-d and that it is obligatory to follow halacha. What he does not accept is that everything it says is historically true.)
He is still a kofer!

43

 Dec 31, 2008 at 11:31 AM HAGTBG Says:

To #24

Allegorical interpretation (e.g. saying the 'Hand of G-d' doesn't literally mean His Hand) and exegetical interpreation (e.g. the 13 exegetical principles of R' Yishmael as well as those of R' Akiva, by which we learn halacha from apparent textual contradiction/repeition) require that the Torah can be both true and false simultaneously but that the 'falsehood' is meant to advance the core truth.

I hope by writing that it such duality is irrational, you don't mean to undermine these core ideas in Torah Judaism.

44

 Dec 31, 2008 at 11:31 AM Anonymous Says:

I wonder what Richard Joel has to say about this, if anything.

45

 Dec 31, 2008 at 11:31 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #28  
Monsey man Says:

....which is why while Lakewood and Satmar are growing exponentially, YU after all these years only graduates 600 undergrads a year. They are sick in the head because they have no idea WHAT they believe in.

what you really mean is "you" have no idea what they believe in. And that's ok, but since it's the case it would behoove you to follow the words of Chazal 'syag lechochma shtika'.

46

 Dec 31, 2008 at 11:28 AM Anonymous Says:

it should NOT be called Yeshiva University anymore. YESHIVAS dont invite people like this to speak. YESHIVAS are true torah institutions that teach TORAH not BS. YESHIVAS do not hire crossdressers to teach FRUM talmidim. they should be ashamed of themselves. it should be called University for Jews. NOT A YESHIVA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

47

 Dec 31, 2008 at 11:28 AM Anonymous Says:

That is a pretty sharp statement calling james kugel an Apikores!!!
Seems to me more like lashon hara then anything else.
What is the point of this newspiece ? An academic gave a lecture at YU??
Who cares, look around there are far greater problems around us!!!

48

 Dec 31, 2008 at 11:26 AM Use Your Head Says:

Without question, there are many true talmidei chachamim among YU's ranks, alumni, and student body - and these people have provided a great benefit to klal yisroel. Anyone who cannot admit that is simply out of touch with reality.

That said, YU, like most institutions (Jewish or otherwise), is not perfect. As a rebbi of mine once put it rather pithily, "Yeshiva University is like Day Night."

49

 Dec 31, 2008 at 11:26 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #15  
michal Says:

No it's not. It is very telling what YU stands for.

And what precisley is your expertise and credentials in determining what YU stands for? The top of the letter had B"SD. There is no Halacha that every 2 minutes in a business letter you have to mention HKB"H. And if you do so it does NOT make you more frum, though it may make you LOOK more frum to some people who do not want to bother to really understand you. YU is what it is. It is not all about appearances. If every segment of yiddishkeit would just be what it is and not sit and snip at other segments for silly things, and not worry what everyone else thinks of it we would all be better off -the emesdik ways would prevail. Now people see phoniness -and phoniness is a much bigger cause today of frum people going off the derech than exposure to intellectual ideas. People grounded in Torah can handle intellectual ideas. But when they see fakers and phonys holding themselves out to be frum that is when there emunah can C"V be shaken.

50

 Dec 31, 2008 at 10:54 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
Yitzchok Says:

Yeshiva U. is no longer a relevant institution, The Yeshiva and The University are both 2nd rate at best, it draws on jews from the diaspora outside of New York and Israel, where most of the kids going there have never had a Yeshiva education and therefore it is a novel concept that makes both the parent and the child happy. So for someone from say Columbus, Ohio. or Winnipeg it's the perfect choice. Today kids from new York that have any bit of "Seichel" are going to real Universities like NYU, Columbia, even Harvard and Yale.

I happen to agree with you however I am not sure what the point of your statement is. NYU, Harvard, etc. would welcome people like Dr. Kugel, as they should since a university should present as many viewpoints as possible so that students can develop thier own thoughts and ideas and grow intellectualy-that is what university is for. So if you are in favour of these institutions, then you should support the presence of Dr. Kugel at YU and see it as a step in the right direction for them. As for your comment about YU being a second rate institution-yes it is. I went there after one year of going to a real university and found it to be a glorified high school. Perhaps it has changed though.

51

 Dec 31, 2008 at 10:48 AM Anonymous Says:

This is news? No, its the same old harrangue against a segment of our people that appears here every time YU is mentioned in any context. and it gives a platform to all sorts of people ignorant of what YU is to make all sorts of comments. what is the toeles???? YU has Roshei yeshiva who are gedolai B'Torah and talmidim who are masmidim and it is mamish Yehura for many of the commentators here to think that in 120 years they are going to be able to stand there and defend what they are saying here and their reasons for saying it. This post on VIN is a contrast to the top post regarding the Shloshim for the Kedoshim murdered in India R"L. Your top post bespeaks unity, and right below it sinas chinam and ignorance. Shkoich.

52

 Dec 31, 2008 at 10:47 AM Learn Some More Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

there is an accepted klal in the torah of ain mudam umeuchar btora which means that many things are not written in the historic order they were written in. I don't see why everyone is so negative here

I think you misunderstand the concept of "ain mukdam u'meuchar baTorah".

54

 Dec 31, 2008 at 12:08 PM Use Your Head Says:

Reply to #41  
HAGTBG Says:

To #34, Charlie Hall,

James Kugel's views as to when the Torah was given and the historical accuracy of the Torah's recounting of the revelation at Sinai are non-standard from an Orthodox perspective.

Big whoop! And davening shacharis at 11 AM is non-standard from an Orthodox perspective too, yet most people don't call them apikorsim.

55

 Dec 31, 2008 at 12:07 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #44  
Anonymous Says:

I wonder what Richard Joel has to say about this, if anything.

You've hit the problem on its head with 100% accuracy!

People with no connection to YU and would never step foot in YU believe that Richard Joel and YU owe them a din vecheshbon on how they run their institution!

Has YU ever demanded that certain chassidesheh institutions explain to YU why they play games vehamaivin yovin?

56

 Dec 31, 2008 at 12:07 PM LESKID Says:

This is tamed kfiras. You should see what they teach in the rabbinical program of JTS, an institution that alleges to have fidelity with halacha.

57

 Dec 31, 2008 at 12:29 PM Anonymous Says:

Anyone who has any doubts as to how far afield Prof Kugel's viwpoints are from normative or as he would call it traditional Orthodoxy can go to his web site and read his article on appologetics and bible criticism. Its clear that it was inappropriate for an Orthodox school to host him as a speaker.

58

 Dec 31, 2008 at 12:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #7  
Anonymous Says:

how many of you have actually gone to YU before begin bashing it.

I attended Stern College approximately 36 years ago and was proud to be an alumna of such an institution. Unfortunately, the Yeshiva University that I attended and YU today are very different institutions with YU today espousing the secular, liberal philosophy which is anathema to true Torah Judaism. It seems that the Torah part of YU is playing second fiddle to the Mada part. Is this why we need a "religious" university?

59

 Dec 31, 2008 at 11:57 AM shteig Says:

Funny, you quote the Rambam - but his books were burned during the middle ages and he was lebelled a kofer

60

 Dec 31, 2008 at 12:32 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #23  
Anonymous Says:

Didn't YU used to be an "orthodox" school? Now it has gay groups, transgender teachers, apikorsim guest speakers, & goodness knows what else.

I couldn't care less what weird/disgusting/abhorrent/immoral things people do, but don't wrap them up as "Kosher" & expect the rest of us to buy them. #5 praises the Roshei Yeshiva & yet we never hear a word of condemnation from them. The old NIMBY defense? NMJ? I'd like to see the Rabbonim who train future leaders of the Jewish community (sic) open their mouths & address the issues that their governing body thinks are fit for YU.

That's like saying every chareidi /yeshivish school that harbors child molestors should no longer be called Orthodox

61

 Dec 31, 2008 at 12:25 PM joel rich Says:

As a rebbi of mine once put it rather pithily, "Yeshiva University is like Day Night."
==========================

What a very nice compliment - comparing YU to bein hashmashot which according to many authorities HKB"H created to have elements of both day and night - mah hu af atah (imitato dei)
KT

62

 Dec 31, 2008 at 12:40 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #46  
Anonymous Says:

it should NOT be called Yeshiva University anymore. YESHIVAS dont invite people like this to speak. YESHIVAS are true torah institutions that teach TORAH not BS. YESHIVAS do not hire crossdressers to teach FRUM talmidim. they should be ashamed of themselves. it should be called University for Jews. NOT A YESHIVA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You can call someone an "apikores" or whatever mindless names you want but you are a fool if you don't recognize that free thinking individuals will always have the final word over "blind" obedience to a rigid interpretation of what is true Torah and Halacha...hashem has given us great powers of reasoning, analysis and thought and you cannot suppress the ability of Yidden to find their own derech...

63

 Dec 31, 2008 at 12:39 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #7  
Anonymous Says:

how many of you have actually gone to YU before begin bashing it.

I attended YU in the 1980s and they invited a rep from the Arab League to adress the student body at yeshiva college!!

It does not suprise me....

It is good to be open minded... But not to open minded or your brains might fall out!!

64

 Dec 31, 2008 at 12:36 PM YU Guy Says:

YU guys are better informed and sharper learners than those at many of the chareidi
yeshivas. They undergo rigorous testing and assessment and their learning is combined with an understanding of science which is essential to fuller understanding of Torah. Chareidim end up asking YU professionals for advice on psak i.e. regarding medicine

65

 Dec 31, 2008 at 11:55 AM orthowatch.blogspot.com Says:

Oh please, YU Rabbonim aren't worth anything because they don't condemn things? What about all the Rabbonim in Lakewood who swept the who Torah Temmimah thing under the carpet? What about the "Rebbe" from the Ger Yeshiva who ran to Israel after being accused of molesting kids? I didn't hear any condemnation coming from the Gerrer Rebbe. I guess he's not worth much, either, right?
YU is an amazing place, where an enormous amount of learning is done. Attacking it the way you are here is pure loshon hara. You should be begging forgiveness.

66

 Dec 31, 2008 at 11:54 AM Anonymous Says:

Geilah Kletenik one of the organizers of this event is the daughter of R Moshe Kletenik, a baki in shas and poskim. He learned by R Aron Soloveichik zt"l in Chicago, and then was in r Zweig's kollel in Miami nad the Mir for several years. He is the son-in-law of R Pupko from Pittsburgh and is a well respected and chashuva Rov in Seattle. I'm curious how he reacts to this "speaker" i guess the answer is TEIQU

67

 Dec 31, 2008 at 12:45 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
HAGTBG Says:

Please be accurate. James Kugel believes the Torah is of Divine Origin, i.e. from G-d and that it is obligatory to follow halacha. What he does not accept is that everything it says is historically true.

Finally, for someone to try to write psak as to James Kugel in the middle of an article - or to insert the Madoff scandal which is irrelevant to this - is simply irresponsible and speaks to bias.

u cant live a life of paradox u r contradicting yourself if he believes in the divine origin of the torah then it is all divine but to be so ponpous as to portend to know what is from H' and what is not is downright apikorsus i'll take the interpretation of thoe geniuses as the gaon rashi ramban orach chaim kli yakar etc...who are so full of yiras shomaim and ever so humble any day not evryone has the merit to disseminate torah those apikursim have come and gone but only men of truth are forever revered

68

 Dec 31, 2008 at 12:45 PM Kashrus Pro Says:

Reply to #40  
Anonymous Says:

Irrelavent? Not to the vast majority of frum people who eat OU products. Or to the Orthodox people who daven in Young Isreal across America.

Perhaps irrelavent in your world, but in case you haven't noticed, there is life on the western shores of the Hudson River.

You obviously havent seen the offices or the personel of the major kashrus agencies lately. They all have people from across the board on their staff from Shtreimils to Srugies.

69

 Dec 31, 2008 at 12:42 PM Anonymous Says:

the problem with religious fundamentalists is that they criticize others without fully understanding the issues. the fact is that the rambam didnt know what we know today regarding biblical history, archeology and scholarship. the rambam says that certain stories in bereishit never happened but were a dream- he too then is an apikores since he says things written in the torah didnt happen. the fact is that the torah was edited after many years of broken transmission from the time of moshe to the time of ezra. sefer melachim confirms this - they found the torah in yoshiyahus time (probably devarim) and never heard of the things written in it. The first editor was moshe himself of devarim - as stated in the gemarah regarding the tochacot, in addition the eben ezra, rabbi yehuda hahasid, and rav saadya gaon say the torah was edited. educate yourselves before casting stones.

70

 Dec 31, 2008 at 01:18 PM moishe Says:

#69...what you say is pure apikorses...not surprizing from heter gay yeshivah(sic) univesity. can you refer to where the rambasm says certain stories never happened?

71

 Dec 31, 2008 at 01:14 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #58  
Anonymous Says:

I attended Stern College approximately 36 years ago and was proud to be an alumna of such an institution. Unfortunately, the Yeshiva University that I attended and YU today are very different institutions with YU today espousing the secular, liberal philosophy which is anathema to true Torah Judaism. It seems that the Torah part of YU is playing second fiddle to the Mada part. Is this why we need a "religious" university?

On what bais do you make this comment about the YU of today? Actually it's just the opposite -if anything the bais medresh is more packed than ever, and, for better or for worse, the student body has moved towards the right. I think maybe you have moved too, and now you need to justify to yourself that you went to Stern, so you made this comment.

72

 Dec 31, 2008 at 01:33 PM yiddishe bubby Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

Maybe he will teach them how much 2 + 2 is.

So they will be able to make up their mind once and for all if they lost 14 mill or 110 mil.

It takes very big Chachomim and Geonim and biggest Professors to figure it out.

if you would have paid attention to the article as it was written concerning the money lost, you would have known that they are sure how much they lost, the $110 million was the amount that they would have made if the paper that the investment was written on was valid. Secondly, what does the last paragraph have to do with the story, come on don't dress up the article by sensationalism we have enough tsoris with reporting things as they are. And lastly, not only are some of the great Torah minds of this and past generations affiliated with YU but some pretty terrific Rabbonim who work for Klal studied there, don't muddy the waters.

73

 Dec 31, 2008 at 01:31 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #62  
Anonymous Says:

You can call someone an "apikores" or whatever mindless names you want but you are a fool if you don't recognize that free thinking individuals will always have the final word over "blind" obedience to a rigid interpretation of what is true Torah and Halacha...hashem has given us great powers of reasoning, analysis and thought and you cannot suppress the ability of Yidden to find their own derech...

We had many free minds in the past called maskilim and we know what happened to them. That's why we are warned Al Titosh Toras Imecho.

74

 Dec 31, 2008 at 01:30 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #46  
Anonymous Says:

it should NOT be called Yeshiva University anymore. YESHIVAS dont invite people like this to speak. YESHIVAS are true torah institutions that teach TORAH not BS. YESHIVAS do not hire crossdressers to teach FRUM talmidim. they should be ashamed of themselves. it should be called University for Jews. NOT A YESHIVA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AHA, so you admit the talmidim are frum!

75

 Dec 31, 2008 at 01:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #69  
Anonymous Says:

the problem with religious fundamentalists is that they criticize others without fully understanding the issues. the fact is that the rambam didnt know what we know today regarding biblical history, archeology and scholarship. the rambam says that certain stories in bereishit never happened but were a dream- he too then is an apikores since he says things written in the torah didnt happen. the fact is that the torah was edited after many years of broken transmission from the time of moshe to the time of ezra. sefer melachim confirms this - they found the torah in yoshiyahus time (probably devarim) and never heard of the things written in it. The first editor was moshe himself of devarim - as stated in the gemarah regarding the tochacot, in addition the eben ezra, rabbi yehuda hahasid, and rav saadya gaon say the torah was edited. educate yourselves before casting stones.

The gemora does not say he wrote it on his own. Read the gemora again.

76

 Dec 31, 2008 at 12:55 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #11  
joel rich Says:

Yitzchok,
I believe your statements with regard to YU enrollment are not supported by the facts.

I agree that Richard Joel's letter was somewhat lacking but not sure why that's relevant here?

Is Dr. Kugel an apikores, I don't know but from the transcript of the talk, it's hard to prove it. Do you believe that every letter in the Torah is as HKB"H gave to Moshe? If so, how do you explain the diferences between an ashkenazi and sfardi sefer torah (and once one letter is different, it proves the point)

Kol Tuv
Joel Rich YC '73

that letter in pzuah dakko makes no difference it proves only the authenticity of the torah that over millenia and exile and persecution klal yisroel forgot if it is a he or an aleph lehavdil the other bible has thousands of revisions and still under revision

77

 Dec 31, 2008 at 01:45 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #54  
Use Your Head Says:

Big whoop! And davening shacharis at 11 AM is non-standard from an Orthodox perspective too, yet most people don't call them apikorsim.

Not listening to halacha makes you an apikoires NOT, denying the Yud Gimmel ikarim does.

78

 Dec 31, 2008 at 01:51 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #49  
Anonymous Says:

And what precisley is your expertise and credentials in determining what YU stands for? The top of the letter had B"SD. There is no Halacha that every 2 minutes in a business letter you have to mention HKB"H. And if you do so it does NOT make you more frum, though it may make you LOOK more frum to some people who do not want to bother to really understand you. YU is what it is. It is not all about appearances. If every segment of yiddishkeit would just be what it is and not sit and snip at other segments for silly things, and not worry what everyone else thinks of it we would all be better off -the emesdik ways would prevail. Now people see phoniness -and phoniness is a much bigger cause today of frum people going off the derech than exposure to intellectual ideas. People grounded in Torah can handle intellectual ideas. But when they see fakers and phonys holding themselves out to be frum that is when there emunah can C"V be shaken.

"intellectual ideas"

Kfira intellectual? Go learn the new testament.

79

 Dec 31, 2008 at 02:45 PM Anonymous Says:

(reply to 70) the rambam says in parshes vayiru that the maluchim never came to avrum, Its a simple dream that he dreamed

80

 Dec 31, 2008 at 02:45 PM Freedom Fighter Says:

Why am I not surprised?

Yeshiva University straddles between two worlds rather precariously. It is almost like a scizo who cannot make up his mind.

As they struggle, they slip.

Hence, a 'conference' on Ethics in Kashruth, all the while ignoring that this conference contravened the basic 'less hip and PC' old-time Jewish Ethics of Motze Shem Ra and Dan Lkaf Zhut. It was a total sham and shame; the 'Jewish Durban'.

The problem is, as they play with fire, they burn not only themselves, but also thousands of innoncents...

81

 Dec 31, 2008 at 02:23 PM moishe Says:

the fudemantals of jusaism...if one believes kol hatorah min hashumayim except 1 ois is apikores rambam (not his own..beferishe gemmorah)see igros moshe expounds on this..and thats whyholy tzadikim of all generation were against torah un madda because the end result is such apikorsih insitutions as ....

82

 Dec 31, 2008 at 02:07 PM monsey man Says:

Reply to #36  
Use Your Head Says:

I don't know where you got your education, but I doubt Lakewood and Satmar are growing exponentially. They are almost certainly growing geometrically. I'm guessing you didn't attend YU; with such an education you'd probably know the difference.

With exponential growth of a positive value its rate of increase steadily increases....and to answer your statement, Rutgers

83

 Dec 31, 2008 at 01:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #78  
Anonymous Says:

"intellectual ideas"

Kfira intellectual? Go learn the new testament.

Torah intellectual. Go look in a dictionary. It is very telling that you would automatically equate the word intellectual with kfira. Very telling.

84

 Dec 31, 2008 at 03:02 PM Anonymous Says:

reply to #75
i didnt say he wrote it- he edited it- he shortened the long tochacha - so its his version of it

85

 Dec 31, 2008 at 04:12 PM Chanan R. Says:

It is because of these ignoramuses that I left Morristown and Kiryas Joel, and decided to pursue a real education in Yeshiva University. Its funny how "Torah true" Jews who "believe" in H'KB on Vos iz Neias always bash YU and spit venemous loshon hora against fellow Jews.

Always remember, for every finger you point at someone else, there are four more pointed back at you, so stop wasting time posting comments and go learn Torah.

Sincerely,
-Chanan

86

 Dec 31, 2008 at 04:36 PM Anon Says:

"President Joel's letter was outstanding. It is easy to forget that Yeshiva University employs thousands of people who are not Orthodox or not even Jewish. To use the kind of language that would inspire us who are religious believers would have at best confused those folks, or even worse, turned them off."

That's okay. They're used to religious organizations with no transparency and where money can magically disappear from charity bank accounts as long as the administration speak piously, "Hakodosh Baruch Hu will help."

87

 Dec 31, 2008 at 03:53 PM Anonymous Says:

Dear #69

Read this carefully.

You can call someone an "apikores" or whatever mindless names you want but you are a fool if you don't recognize that free thinking individuals will always have the final word over "blind" obedience to a rigid interpretation of what is true arithmetic...hashem has given us great powers of reasoning, analysis and thought and you cannot suppress the ability of Yidden to find their own derech in arithmetic.

Doesn't make sense does it? Bling and rigid are correct when we deal with 7 times 8 being 56.

88

 Dec 31, 2008 at 03:45 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #84  
Anonymous Says:

reply to #75
i didnt say he wrote it- he edited it- he shortened the long tochacha - so its his version of it

The gemora does not say that either, go back and learn it again. You are a mistaken heretic, if you believe that any portion of the torah exactly as is, is anything but what was given to moshe by hashem. This is one of the13 fundementals of the torah.

You must be confusing what moshe said to what was written.

89

 Dec 31, 2008 at 03:45 PM Baal Habos Says:

Of course he's an Apikores. Just look at the color of his Yarmulke.

90

 Dec 31, 2008 at 04:56 PM gil Says:

Reply to #1  
Yitzchok Says:

Yeshiva U. is no longer a relevant institution, The Yeshiva and The University are both 2nd rate at best, it draws on jews from the diaspora outside of New York and Israel, where most of the kids going there have never had a Yeshiva education and therefore it is a novel concept that makes both the parent and the child happy. So for someone from say Columbus, Ohio. or Winnipeg it's the perfect choice. Today kids from new York that have any bit of "Seichel" are going to real Universities like NYU, Columbia, even Harvard and Yale.

I agree that the university is 2nd rate but the Yeshiva is amoung the best and possibly the best in america, if you disagree then you most likely have not had any or much exposure to the roshei yeshiva or the talmidim.

91

 Dec 31, 2008 at 06:06 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #15  
michal Says:

No it's not. It is very telling what YU stands for.

Have you ever been to the YU Beis? Dont make naive statements. Learn in the YU main Beis and then talk.

92

 Dec 31, 2008 at 05:24 PM Farshtunken Says:

TEIQU, I remind you, is the same group who brought you the "let's feel great and ethical about ourselves by bashing Rubashkin, even if there is no support at all for alleged 'worker abuse'" Forum at YU (a day or two before the Madoff scandal broke).

It is rotten at the beginning, rotten in the middle, and rotten at the end. It is the same disregard for "motzi shem ra" that brings you this sophisticated apikorsus.

93

 Dec 31, 2008 at 05:15 PM YU guy Says:

actually many boys turn down Ivy for YU so that they can learn. They end up making top law and med schools anyway.

94

 Dec 31, 2008 at 06:17 PM Anonymous Says:

I don't know why you have wasted space on this tipshus. Anyone with half a brain knows that no ben or bas Torah goes to a university. No matter under whose auspices, a university will send people off the derech. Tue bnei Torah don't need this waste of time and money to learn how to make a parnasa. If you don't believe me, how many Jewish children are starving or barefoot.?

95

 Dec 31, 2008 at 07:26 PM michal Says:

Reply to #27  
Anonymous Says:

Do you question your rebeim also? or only other people's rebbeim?

My Rav is not a YU rabbi, however, if my rav, G-d forbid, allowed an apikores to speak in our shul, I would question his authority.

96

 Dec 31, 2008 at 07:21 PM Dan E. Says:

I think the discussion here has revolved around a more basic idea. Jewish fundamentalists versus academic study. Religious fundamentalists have always argued with scientists. How many people thought the world was flat (Rashi) and were wrong. Fundies ignore science and dismiss evidence when it conflicts with their beliefs. People who believe the account in Genesis to be literal, ignore the overwhelming scientific evidence of cosmology and Earth Science. To read the Torah literally one must ignore science and nature and substitute miracles. A biologist can not comment on biblical miracles because that is not his field. Dr. Kugel is a very well educated scholar. He knows more Tanach and Midrash than most rabunim. At the same time his scholarship leads to his conclusions.
The same way a frum doctor doesnt say a kapittel Tehillim or any other remedy from Talmud, he uses the medicine that science and evidence best suggest will work . Kugel does the same. That is how academia works.
Just to get back at those who quoted the Rambam:
1- The Rambam used the best knowledge of his time in both Torah and science. We know he was wrong about a lot of his science, maybe he was wrong about other things as well.
2- as was stated before, rabbis of the Rambam's generation though he was kofer b'Ikkar, burned his books, maybe soon those who flame Professor Kugel will embrace him and his writings for inspiring Bible study.

97

 Dec 31, 2008 at 07:18 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #94  
Anonymous Says:

I don't know why you have wasted space on this tipshus. Anyone with half a brain knows that no ben or bas Torah goes to a university. No matter under whose auspices, a university will send people off the derech. Tue bnei Torah don't need this waste of time and money to learn how to make a parnasa. If you don't believe me, how many Jewish children are starving or barefoot.?

I guess that, according to you, all of those letters I get from Yeshivas asking for money to help support kollel families can be thrown away because there are no starving Jewish children.

98

 Dec 31, 2008 at 07:12 PM Anonymous Says:

Why doesn't someone point Dr Kugel to the Torah Misinai proof at Aish.com?

99

 Dec 31, 2008 at 06:52 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #46  
Anonymous Says:

it should NOT be called Yeshiva University anymore. YESHIVAS dont invite people like this to speak. YESHIVAS are true torah institutions that teach TORAH not BS. YESHIVAS do not hire crossdressers to teach FRUM talmidim. they should be ashamed of themselves. it should be called University for Jews. NOT A YESHIVA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They never hired a cross dresser, they hired a man who b'dieved decided he wanted to be a woman. If we lived in a vacuum they could have fired him, sure, but we seem to be a part of this thing called the United States of America with its attendant laws and regulations, ones that we're subject to and, I know this may be shocking to you, but many of us actually follow them.

I think you need to get over the fact that the global institution provides an education in subjects as diverse as biology, economics and classics along with the opportunity to learn some of the most incredibly Torah. It's a reality and it works extremely well for those who wish to partake; eitz chayim hi lamachazikim ba, vesomcheha meushar.

If anyone should be "ashamed" it should be you with respect to your own ignorance.

100

 Dec 31, 2008 at 06:46 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #85  
Chanan R. Says:

It is because of these ignoramuses that I left Morristown and Kiryas Joel, and decided to pursue a real education in Yeshiva University. Its funny how "Torah true" Jews who "believe" in H'KB on Vos iz Neias always bash YU and spit venemous loshon hora against fellow Jews.

Always remember, for every finger you point at someone else, there are four more pointed back at you, so stop wasting time posting comments and go learn Torah.

Sincerely,
-Chanan

Chanan . Why are you entertaining this conversation here . If a commentator tells you that Y.U. is located in Idaho, would you argue with him? of course not because its obvious that he is total ignoramous so why argue about anything else about Y.U. which is apparent that this guy is cluless?

101

 Dec 31, 2008 at 06:46 PM Moving to the left Says:

What is everybody so afraid of? Mr. Kugel is entitled to his opinions, and until someone can prove him wrong, let him speak. I think most of the frummer here who are very closed minded are afraid of something, otherwise they wouldn't start with the name calling and the condesending remarks.

102

 Dec 31, 2008 at 06:43 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #28  
Monsey man Says:

....which is why while Lakewood and Satmar are growing exponentially, YU after all these years only graduates 600 undergrads a year. They are sick in the head because they have no idea WHAT they believe in.

And when you say "they" who exactly are you referring to? It's as if as an institution there is one person and one idea and nothing else. If that was the case there would be one type of student, one type of derech, one sea of sameness. The tremendous thing about YU is that it provides an outlet for growth for everyone from people who did not have a Yeshiva education but are looking to grow in their yiddishkeit to guys who have you been learning yomam valayla their entire lives and still seek growth. Clearly there are different ways to get up the mountain. You cannot reasonably look at an institution and simplify it in such an abstract way.

103

 Dec 31, 2008 at 06:41 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #89  
Baal Habos Says:

Of course he's an Apikores. Just look at the color of his Yarmulke.

i meant blue shirt and brown tie , sorry

104

 Dec 31, 2008 at 06:37 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #10  
Anonymous Says:

It is unfortunate that RIETS a makom Torah would give a platform to Prof Kugel. Although he claims to be a shomer mitvos and I have no reason to doubt that he does follow the religious rituals outlined in Shulchan Aruch, his attitudes towards Tanach are clearly in opposition to everything RIETS rebbeim, even the most "modern" of them teach their talmidim and beleive.

Just like your friend several posts before, you need to read this "article" more carefully and you should also try and understand the way Yeshiva University is actually split up. RIETS did not provide Professor Kugel a platform. Kugel was invited by a student-run organization and spoke at Stern College. Last time I checked Stern College and RIETS were not the same, nor is either one synonymous with Yeshiva College.

105

 Dec 31, 2008 at 06:37 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #94  
Anonymous Says:

I don't know why you have wasted space on this tipshus. Anyone with half a brain knows that no ben or bas Torah goes to a university. No matter under whose auspices, a university will send people off the derech. Tue bnei Torah don't need this waste of time and money to learn how to make a parnasa. If you don't believe me, how many Jewish children are starving or barefoot.?

Your typical newly married couple is starving after the shver decides that enough is enough . If they would have prepared themselves prior with a decent education then they wouldnt have to rely on anyone.

106

 Dec 31, 2008 at 06:35 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

Maybe he will teach them how much 2 + 2 is.

So they will be able to make up their mind once and for all if they lost 14 mill or 110 mil.

It takes very big Chachomim and Geonim and biggest Professors to figure it out.

This is wholly unrelated to the issue at hand. If you genuinely believe that they can't "make up their mind" you are a fool. Preliminary metrics indicated that they may have lost something in the neighborhood of 100+ million. After a more extensive audit it was determined that the amount lost was closer to 10+ million. Try reading, pausing, pausing again, and then commenting.

107

 Dec 31, 2008 at 08:37 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #106  
Anonymous Says:

This is wholly unrelated to the issue at hand. If you genuinely believe that they can't "make up their mind" you are a fool. Preliminary metrics indicated that they may have lost something in the neighborhood of 100+ million. After a more extensive audit it was determined that the amount lost was closer to 10+ million. Try reading, pausing, pausing again, and then commenting.

You forgot the parts about UNDERSTANDING what he read and THINKING about what to write before commenting.

108

 Dec 31, 2008 at 08:33 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #101  
Moving to the left Says:

What is everybody so afraid of? Mr. Kugel is entitled to his opinions, and until someone can prove him wrong, let him speak. I think most of the frummer here who are very closed minded are afraid of something, otherwise they wouldn't start with the name calling and the condesending remarks.

If you say the frummer are closed minded you are an apikores too.

See? Calling someone an apikores is the new cure-all.

109

 Dec 31, 2008 at 09:21 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #27  
Anonymous Says:

Do you question your rebeim also? or only other people's rebbeim?

Bemakom sheyesh chilul hashem ein cholkim kovod lerav,

110

 Dec 31, 2008 at 09:16 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
Anonymous Says:

this farshtinkene kugel needs a doctor, why do they call him a doctor.

the gedoilei yisroel of yesteryear have already defined YU, no need for anybody to explain who they are. there might have fallen in some good boys, but it is to there great misfortune.
It's a pity yu didnt loose everything to madoff

Harav Shamshon Ben Rafael Hirsch once said "zint Rabbonim huben zich ongehoiben roofen dokter krenkt der idisher falk". Ever since Rabbis started calling themselves doctor the jewish nation has fallen ill and is sick.

111

 Dec 31, 2008 at 08:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #46  
Anonymous Says:

it should NOT be called Yeshiva University anymore. YESHIVAS dont invite people like this to speak. YESHIVAS are true torah institutions that teach TORAH not BS. YESHIVAS do not hire crossdressers to teach FRUM talmidim. they should be ashamed of themselves. it should be called University for Jews. NOT A YESHIVA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

from comment 46: "YESHIVAS dont invite people like this to speak. YESHIVAS are true torah institutions that teach TORAH not BS. YESHIVAS do not hire crossdressers to teach FRUM talmidim. they should be ashamed of themselves. it should be called University for Jews. NOT A YESHIVA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "

what exactly is this BS you talk of. I went to Yeshiva University, and I am not sure what you mean? Did they teach that in Lakewood or Mirrer, and I wasn't fortunate enough to have that quality yeshiva education?

112

 Dec 31, 2008 at 09:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #36  
Use Your Head Says:

I don't know where you got your education, but I doubt Lakewood and Satmar are growing exponentially. They are almost certainly growing geometrically. I'm guessing you didn't attend YU; with such an education you'd probably know the difference.

and what are you going to do with your yu education, sit in an office b'giluy rosh and graduate to became a conservative rabbi i bet

113

 Dec 31, 2008 at 09:36 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #76  
Anonymous Says:

that letter in pzuah dakko makes no difference it proves only the authenticity of the torah that over millenia and exile and persecution klal yisroel forgot if it is a he or an aleph lehavdil the other bible has thousands of revisions and still under revision

din't they teach you anything about the mesorah???

114

 Dec 31, 2008 at 09:35 PM bermel Says:

Reply to #11  
joel rich Says:

Yitzchok,
I believe your statements with regard to YU enrollment are not supported by the facts.

I agree that Richard Joel's letter was somewhat lacking but not sure why that's relevant here?

Is Dr. Kugel an apikores, I don't know but from the transcript of the talk, it's hard to prove it. Do you believe that every letter in the Torah is as HKB"H gave to Moshe? If so, how do you explain the diferences between an ashkenazi and sfardi sefer torah (and once one letter is different, it proves the point)

Kol Tuv
Joel Rich YC '73

Of course we believe that every single latter in the torah is given to us by hashem. Their are no differences in the words of the torah from Ashkenazi or Safford, there are however 7 very miner differences in the latter, but only in places that it dos not change the meaning of the word

115

 Dec 31, 2008 at 09:25 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #39  
david Says:

If one does not agree with every word that the Rambam said, does that turn him into an apikoros? The Rambam was a great scholar and everything, but he was still a human being. The torah isn't like a machine, where if you pull a screw out it doesn't function properly. The torah is complex and its interpretations are complex as well, and we are in no position to judge a another person based on their understanding of torah. We believe and do what we feel is right, but we don't know for sure. And we definitely cannot attack one another because of one disagreement. This lecture had no mandatory attendance policy and no one was obliged to attend. would you rather silence everyone that has one disagreement with you? You wouldn't have who to talk to. Don't we have so much more in common??

don't insult out intelligence he is a kofer b'iker

116

 Dec 31, 2008 at 09:13 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #11  
joel rich Says:

Yitzchok,
I believe your statements with regard to YU enrollment are not supported by the facts.

I agree that Richard Joel's letter was somewhat lacking but not sure why that's relevant here?

Is Dr. Kugel an apikores, I don't know but from the transcript of the talk, it's hard to prove it. Do you believe that every letter in the Torah is as HKB"H gave to Moshe? If so, how do you explain the diferences between an ashkenazi and sfardi sefer torah (and once one letter is different, it proves the point)

Kol Tuv
Joel Rich YC '73

Joel Rich:
Your post reveals the extent of your am ha"aratzus. Can't believe that you spent years studying at Rabbeinu Yitzchok Elchonon. ask Rabbi Hershel Schachter for the answer to your third grade yeshvah ketana question.

117

 Dec 31, 2008 at 06:40 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #89  
Baal Habos Says:

Of course he's an Apikores. Just look at the color of his Yarmulke.

no , its not the yamulka . Its the white shirt and brown tie and the fact that he actually speaks english well.

118

 Dec 31, 2008 at 10:02 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #116  
Anonymous Says:

Joel Rich:
Your post reveals the extent of your am ha"aratzus. Can't believe that you spent years studying at Rabbeinu Yitzchok Elchonon. ask Rabbi Hershel Schachter for the answer to your third grade yeshvah ketana question.

instead of sending him to some other rabbi for an answer why dont you answer his question . Stop evading his question . show us that you are not an am haaretz!

119

 Dec 31, 2008 at 10:32 PM chavrusa Says:

Reply to #94  
Anonymous Says:

I don't know why you have wasted space on this tipshus. Anyone with half a brain knows that no ben or bas Torah goes to a university. No matter under whose auspices, a university will send people off the derech. Tue bnei Torah don't need this waste of time and money to learn how to make a parnasa. If you don't believe me, how many Jewish children are starving or barefoot.?

Your ignorance and narrow mindedness testify your lack of university contact. Actually there is great Jewish poverty especially in Yerushalyim. The Lubavitcher rebbe went to university and Lakewood was originally chartered as a university.Perhaps you are too insecure in your yiddishkeit to test it in a university or to face the intellectual accountability of examinations and grades.

120

 Dec 31, 2008 at 11:00 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #96  
Dan E. Says:

I think the discussion here has revolved around a more basic idea. Jewish fundamentalists versus academic study. Religious fundamentalists have always argued with scientists. How many people thought the world was flat (Rashi) and were wrong. Fundies ignore science and dismiss evidence when it conflicts with their beliefs. People who believe the account in Genesis to be literal, ignore the overwhelming scientific evidence of cosmology and Earth Science. To read the Torah literally one must ignore science and nature and substitute miracles. A biologist can not comment on biblical miracles because that is not his field. Dr. Kugel is a very well educated scholar. He knows more Tanach and Midrash than most rabunim. At the same time his scholarship leads to his conclusions.
The same way a frum doctor doesnt say a kapittel Tehillim or any other remedy from Talmud, he uses the medicine that science and evidence best suggest will work . Kugel does the same. That is how academia works.
Just to get back at those who quoted the Rambam:
1- The Rambam used the best knowledge of his time in both Torah and science. We know he was wrong about a lot of his science, maybe he was wrong about other things as well.
2- as was stated before, rabbis of the Rambam's generation though he was kofer b'Ikkar, burned his books, maybe soon those who flame Professor Kugel will embrace him and his writings for inspiring Bible study.

So people who believe in Genesis literally ignore scientific "facts." As usual, people who make these arguments never present what scientific "facts" they are talking about.
My experience in talking to people who speak like this is that they have no idea what they are talking about.
Others will cite scientific theory and call it scientific "facts\." These theories have been thoroughly refuted by well respected scientists. The bottom line is that science has not explained how human beings or the world came into being. There are many theories, but none of them account, nor can they account, for the existence of the world. All of the theories start with "step two" explaining that the earth came into being from an exploding star, etc. But they do not even attempt to explain how this star which exploded came into being.

This is why all the theories, cited as scientific "fact," are nothing more than theory. If you cannot account for the fundamentals of how the world came into being, then all of these scientific "facts" are built on sand castles.Genesis explains what science has not even come close to explaining.

121

 Dec 31, 2008 at 11:17 PM Anonymous Says:

I never learned in YU but I have visited there when spending the day in WH on business several times.

No doubt, the students who invited him did not do YU any toivah by doing so.

However, all of the knee-jerk hateful comments written here are nonsense. I had hoped that Lakewood & Co. would have grown up enough by now that they can disagree without spewing venom and bile at use of the letters Y and U in the same paragraph.

RIETS has turned out some very big poskim and some very big egos and some pretty big jerks. This put them in good company, with Lakewood, Chaim Berlin, Brisk, Mir, Torah Veda'as, Telz and so on.

YU is far from perfect, as are all other yeshivos. The only difference is that the distance between YU and perfection is in one direction and the difference between 'black hat' yeshivos and perfection is in a different direction.

In other words, we are all a great distance from where we should be. Some of us got lost and headed north, some of us got lost and headed west, etc.
The person lost heading north does not get any closer to where we all belong than does the person who got lost heading east.

Wouldn't we all be better off making sure our own paths are headed in the right direction and let others worry about their own paths?

122

 Jan 01, 2009 at 12:25 AM robroy560 Says:

I got thrown out of yeshiva high school, spent my last 2 years of high school at a NYC high school, and I went to a secular university.

While I am not a gadol hador, I know enough to remember that the 2nd Beit HaMikdash was lost due to Sinat Chinam and our sins Bein Adam L'Chaveiro. Mnay of you posting here should be ashamed of yourself.

Honestly, I don't know anything about Dr. Kugel. But this whole thing made me want to learn about what he's about. I said learn. That doesn't mean I have to accept or follow. A rabbi once told me, know what you are rejecting before you reject.

Back when I was around bar mitzvah age, I loved reading the Midrash Says. I know very frum people, some with smicha, who don't buy into the Midrash. Does that make them heretics for not buying into the Midrash? Or am I guilty of heresy for following Midrashic interpretations and not spending enough time with Tanach and Gemera?

There's a lot of lieteral and not so literal meaning of our religion. The beauty is we can still commit to the Torah, yet have different interpretations - without compromising Torah. Many opinions are rooted in halacha, and others are minhagim. But as I Chabad rabbi friend of mine jokes, rearrange the letter of minhag and you get gehenom.

So I say, great post #121. Thank you for restoring sanity.

123

 Jan 01, 2009 at 12:19 AM Anonymous Says:

All this talk is bogus. If you read kugel's book and if you read the Rambam you will see that the two are mutually exclusive. 121 saying "let others worry about their own paths" just doesn't cut it when you say that the whole Torah is a forgery. Like it or not, our Torah is our constitution. Just as Americans shouldn't run to Communism and dis our Constitution in our law schools and courtrooms - so too should YU not invite James Kugel - plain and simple. Are you with the program of Torah Judaism or against it??

124

 Jan 01, 2009 at 04:47 AM Anonymous Says:

Your claim that the letter sent out by President Joel did not refer to Hashem is incorrect. The letter concludes, "We all should use these times to reflect on our blessings"--that is clearly a reference to our blessings by Hashem.

125

 Jan 01, 2009 at 02:32 AM YUer who wants out of YU Says:

Reply to #39  
david Says:

If one does not agree with every word that the Rambam said, does that turn him into an apikoros? The Rambam was a great scholar and everything, but he was still a human being. The torah isn't like a machine, where if you pull a screw out it doesn't function properly. The torah is complex and its interpretations are complex as well, and we are in no position to judge a another person based on their understanding of torah. We believe and do what we feel is right, but we don't know for sure. And we definitely cannot attack one another because of one disagreement. This lecture had no mandatory attendance policy and no one was obliged to attend. would you rather silence everyone that has one disagreement with you? You wouldn't have who to talk to. Don't we have so much more in common??

are. you. serious. Rambam had RUACH HAKODESH. "we do what we feel is right"??? are your reform? we do what the TORAH that G-D GAVE TO US tells us, and we do what shas and shulchon oruch and meforshim and our own competent rabbonim today tell us. Mishneh Torah was written through ruach hakodesh, and that means that we accept every single letter as having divine origin. Sure, some sforim disagree with others. but "eilu v'eilu divrei elokim chaim" tells us not to reduce them to mere books. If this guy kugel really is an apikores, he should not be allowed by an ostensibly orthodox institution to speak about Torah! Frankly, though, this doesn't surprise me. the students who come here to YU for a yeshiva education want no part in the university, and the students who come because it's a top 50 school don't want to go to shiur. the vast majority are in between, run of the mill MOers who go to YU because, in the words of one YU student I talked to, "that's just what you do." I predict that Modern Orthodoxy will not exist 50 years from now as a movement. It will go one way or the other and be absorbed as either "traditional conservative" (the direction it's heading now) or frum up and be jewish. There's only so long someone can straddle a fence, and YU (and modern orthodoxy in general) is about to fall. you heard it here first.

126

 Jan 01, 2009 at 01:50 AM Chochom Says:

Bottom line: YU is bigger, better, richer and more influential than any other yeshiva. It produces both talmidei chachomic and askonim and preserves the future of the Jewish people. All the envious loshon hara will not change that.

127

 Jan 01, 2009 at 09:42 AM joel rich Says:

Of course we believe that every single latter in the torah is given to us by hashem. Their are no differences in the words of the torah from Ashkenazi or Safford, there are however 7 very miner differences in the latter, but only in places that it dos not change the meaning of the word
========================
bernel.
please reread my post - while your statement is true it does not answer my point - do you believe that EVERY LETTER of the torah you read from was from sinai. Your post seems to agree that a ben ashkenaz and a ben sfarad who each said yes would have to say the other was incorrect.

KT

128

 Jan 01, 2009 at 10:30 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #125  
YUer who wants out of YU Says:

are. you. serious. Rambam had RUACH HAKODESH. "we do what we feel is right"??? are your reform? we do what the TORAH that G-D GAVE TO US tells us, and we do what shas and shulchon oruch and meforshim and our own competent rabbonim today tell us. Mishneh Torah was written through ruach hakodesh, and that means that we accept every single letter as having divine origin. Sure, some sforim disagree with others. but "eilu v'eilu divrei elokim chaim" tells us not to reduce them to mere books. If this guy kugel really is an apikores, he should not be allowed by an ostensibly orthodox institution to speak about Torah! Frankly, though, this doesn't surprise me. the students who come here to YU for a yeshiva education want no part in the university, and the students who come because it's a top 50 school don't want to go to shiur. the vast majority are in between, run of the mill MOers who go to YU because, in the words of one YU student I talked to, "that's just what you do." I predict that Modern Orthodoxy will not exist 50 years from now as a movement. It will go one way or the other and be absorbed as either "traditional conservative" (the direction it's heading now) or frum up and be jewish. There's only so long someone can straddle a fence, and YU (and modern orthodoxy in general) is about to fall. you heard it here first.

Wrong. There will always be modern orthodox yiddin. The difference will be who gets tarred and feathered with the label who does the tarring and feathering.

Today, it is still YU being labeled by Lakewood & Co. but YU has lately been trying to dump the label on YCT.

Tomorrow, Mir will decide that Torah Veda'as is too modernish, Lakewood will decide Mir is too Modernish, and then the charaidim in Eretz Tisroel will finally admit that to them American charaidim are not true charaidim because they are too modernish even though their check books are very frum, and b'nai brak will say yerusholayim is too modernish, ve'ain ledovar sof.

As I once read in the works of Rabbi Doctor Twerski - There are five essential needs for every human - food, water, a dwelling, clothing and someone to blame.

129

 Jan 01, 2009 at 10:52 AM Correct Says:

Reply to #128  
Anonymous Says:

Wrong. There will always be modern orthodox yiddin. The difference will be who gets tarred and feathered with the label who does the tarring and feathering.

Today, it is still YU being labeled by Lakewood & Co. but YU has lately been trying to dump the label on YCT.

Tomorrow, Mir will decide that Torah Veda'as is too modernish, Lakewood will decide Mir is too Modernish, and then the charaidim in Eretz Tisroel will finally admit that to them American charaidim are not true charaidim because they are too modernish even though their check books are very frum, and b'nai brak will say yerusholayim is too modernish, ve'ain ledovar sof.

As I once read in the works of Rabbi Doctor Twerski - There are five essential needs for every human - food, water, a dwelling, clothing and someone to blame.

The more branches we have the better. It is the secret of Jewish survival for thousands of years. Who knows which derech is the best, so why not slug it out, and let evolution do the choosing -survival of the fittest derech. It also keeps us sharp.

130

 Jan 01, 2009 at 10:40 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #123  
Anonymous Says:

All this talk is bogus. If you read kugel's book and if you read the Rambam you will see that the two are mutually exclusive. 121 saying "let others worry about their own paths" just doesn't cut it when you say that the whole Torah is a forgery. Like it or not, our Torah is our constitution. Just as Americans shouldn't run to Communism and dis our Constitution in our law schools and courtrooms - so too should YU not invite James Kugel - plain and simple. Are you with the program of Torah Judaism or against it??

Your last line explains your entire attitude. You think of other frum yiddin who don't dress like you and learned by other roshai yeshiva as a difference of 'us' and 'them'.

Wake up, buddy boy. This ain't camp agudah and we ain't picking sides for color war.

This is real life. Needless machlokes just keeps driving us further and further into galus.

131

 Jan 01, 2009 at 11:17 AM Anonymous Says:

The subject at hand is very complicated. But by reading the blogs, we realize that those anti YU have spent most of their writing not about the issue, but at name calling and more name calling. In a debate, when one side moves away from the issues and starts name calling everybody knows that he lost. Any silly person can call names.
In a skating match, when one skater hires someone to break the knee of his opponent does that show he is a better skater?

132

 Jan 01, 2009 at 11:09 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #123  
Anonymous Says:

All this talk is bogus. If you read kugel's book and if you read the Rambam you will see that the two are mutually exclusive. 121 saying "let others worry about their own paths" just doesn't cut it when you say that the whole Torah is a forgery. Like it or not, our Torah is our constitution. Just as Americans shouldn't run to Communism and dis our Constitution in our law schools and courtrooms - so too should YU not invite James Kugel - plain and simple. Are you with the program of Torah Judaism or against it??

I believe the idea that one should fix oneself before trying to fix others is one of the rules taught by the 'modern' Reb Yisroel salanter.

133

 Jan 01, 2009 at 12:12 PM EMES Says:

what & from whom are we talking about ? the y.u. is a long time Pusel you don't see there a real YIDDISHE face & look at so called pro. DOES HE HAVE A YIDDISHE TZIREH

134

 Jan 01, 2009 at 11:57 AM Motti Says:

Each time I hear "Yeshiva University" mentioned, it is in relation to domething which does either contradict or completly oppose Halacha!
Most recently I spoke to a reform convert who attends a consrvadox shul (what else are they going to come up with), who's Rabbi is a graduate from the "Yeshiva University". He told me that he is recognised as Jewish there an receives all the privileges, such as Aliyos to the Toah, Haggbah and even davening from the Amud.
This is more then disturbing, rendering this Organisation secular and liberal.
Members of the Orthodox, may it be modern or other, should not send their children there.
I feel that people in NY should demonstrate against YU and engage in its closing or otherwise exclude it of orthodox circles.
Again, by inviting such people as Mr Kugel, they have proven that they are not worthy of our support!

136

 Jan 01, 2009 at 06:57 PM 12 Tribes of Yaakov Says:

Why were we split up into 12 tribes? Why are there Cohanim, Leviyim and Yisroelim? Diversity is what makes the Jewish people great.

137

 Jan 01, 2009 at 06:28 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #123
Anonymous Says:
“ All this talk is bogus. If you read kugel's book and if you read the Rambam you will see that the two are mutually exclusive. 121 saying "let others worry about their own paths" just doesn't cut it when you say that the whole Torah is a forgery. Like it or not, our Torah is our constitution. Just as Americans shouldn't run to Communism and dis our Constitution in our law schools and courtrooms - so too should YU not invite James Kugel - plain and simple. Are you with the program of Torah Judaism or against it?? ”

Your last line explains your entire attitude. You think of other frum yiddin who don't dress like you and learned by other roshai yeshiva as a difference of 'us' and 'them'. NO NOT TRUE. I RESPECT ALL YIDDIN AND HAVE FRIENDS IN HASIDIC, SFARDIC, SATMAR AND CHARDAL CIRCLES- I ALSO READ KUGEL -COMPLETELY AND BEFORE YOU LABEL AND NAME CALL ME - REALIZE THAT THE RAMBAM WOULD CALL HIM A REAL KOFER

Wake up, buddy boy. This ain't camp agudah and we ain't picking sides for color war. NEVER WENT TO CAMP AGUDAH - DID GO TO MOSHAVA, SOLOMON SHECHTER DAY SCHOOL THOUGH.. NOT BEING DIVISIVE BUT TRUTHFUL AND BY THE WAY EVERY CHARDA, SEFARDI, SATMAR, AND YESHIVESH FRUM GUY WOULD AGREE THAT KUGELS BOOK IS TREIFER THAN WELHAUSEN

This is real life. Needless machlokes just keeps driving us further and further into galus. NEEDLESS MACHLOKES?? THE MAN HAS SO THOROUGHLY TRIED TO UNDERMINE TORAH MISINAI THAT YOU COULD NOT DO A BETTER JOV IF YOU TRIED.. READ THE BOOK AND THEN COME BACK TO ME WITH AN APOLOGY

138

 Jan 01, 2009 at 06:25 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #134  
Motti Says:

Each time I hear "Yeshiva University" mentioned, it is in relation to domething which does either contradict or completly oppose Halacha!
Most recently I spoke to a reform convert who attends a consrvadox shul (what else are they going to come up with), who's Rabbi is a graduate from the "Yeshiva University". He told me that he is recognised as Jewish there an receives all the privileges, such as Aliyos to the Toah, Haggbah and even davening from the Amud.
This is more then disturbing, rendering this Organisation secular and liberal.
Members of the Orthodox, may it be modern or other, should not send their children there.
I feel that people in NY should demonstrate against YU and engage in its closing or otherwise exclude it of orthodox circles.
Again, by inviting such people as Mr Kugel, they have proven that they are not worthy of our support!

If you hate YU so much you'd better stop eating. There is not a single hechsher in America that does not depend on the OU to one extent or another and the OU is loaded with YU musmochim.

139

 Jan 01, 2009 at 07:17 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #126  
Chochom Says:

Bottom line: YU is bigger, better, richer and more influential than any other yeshiva. It produces both talmidei chachomic and askonim and preserves the future of the Jewish people. All the envious loshon hara will not change that.

nobody is anvious noone wants distorted and diluted religion to the point that you cant even make a brocho on that learning

140

 Jan 01, 2009 at 09:01 PM moshe Says:

Reply to #13  
Anonymous Says:

yu is an example of compromisejust like cunservartive
or reform its a bridge from yidishkait to becoming a goy
yu is in prosess of doing just that

verry wel putt.

141

 Jan 01, 2009 at 10:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #137  
Anonymous Says:

Reply to #123
Anonymous Says:
“ All this talk is bogus. If you read kugel's book and if you read the Rambam you will see that the two are mutually exclusive. 121 saying "let others worry about their own paths" just doesn't cut it when you say that the whole Torah is a forgery. Like it or not, our Torah is our constitution. Just as Americans shouldn't run to Communism and dis our Constitution in our law schools and courtrooms - so too should YU not invite James Kugel - plain and simple. Are you with the program of Torah Judaism or against it?? ”

Your last line explains your entire attitude. You think of other frum yiddin who don't dress like you and learned by other roshai yeshiva as a difference of 'us' and 'them'. NO NOT TRUE. I RESPECT ALL YIDDIN AND HAVE FRIENDS IN HASIDIC, SFARDIC, SATMAR AND CHARDAL CIRCLES- I ALSO READ KUGEL -COMPLETELY AND BEFORE YOU LABEL AND NAME CALL ME - REALIZE THAT THE RAMBAM WOULD CALL HIM A REAL KOFER

Wake up, buddy boy. This ain't camp agudah and we ain't picking sides for color war. NEVER WENT TO CAMP AGUDAH - DID GO TO MOSHAVA, SOLOMON SHECHTER DAY SCHOOL THOUGH.. NOT BEING DIVISIVE BUT TRUTHFUL AND BY THE WAY EVERY CHARDA, SEFARDI, SATMAR, AND YESHIVESH FRUM GUY WOULD AGREE THAT KUGELS BOOK IS TREIFER THAN WELHAUSEN

This is real life. Needless machlokes just keeps driving us further and further into galus. NEEDLESS MACHLOKES?? THE MAN HAS SO THOROUGHLY TRIED TO UNDERMINE TORAH MISINAI THAT YOU COULD NOT DO A BETTER JOV IF YOU TRIED.. READ THE BOOK AND THEN COME BACK TO ME WITH AN APOLOGY

There is the problem. You were educated in a Conservative 'yeshiva' so you have no idea how important achdus is to klal yisroel. Your attitude will never be right because from an early age you were taught to think like a goy, not like a yid.

142

 Jan 01, 2009 at 10:30 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #139  
Anonymous Says:

nobody is anvious noone wants distorted and diluted religion to the point that you cant even make a brocho on that learning

Nebuch. You are so corrupt you cannot even see how much you are doing to make this galus longer and longer.

143

 Jan 01, 2009 at 11:08 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #140  
moshe Says:

verry wel putt.

absolutely not. sheker. you owe mechila to several hundred people. they are expecting your call for your own teshuva erev yom kippur. YOU are the reason we are in galus. your sick branmd of frummer than thou sinas chinam.

144

 Jan 01, 2009 at 11:07 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #142  
Anonymous Says:

Nebuch. You are so corrupt you cannot even see how much you are doing to make this galus longer and longer.

like you know

145

 Jan 01, 2009 at 11:03 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #137  
Anonymous Says:

Reply to #123
Anonymous Says:
“ All this talk is bogus. If you read kugel's book and if you read the Rambam you will see that the two are mutually exclusive. 121 saying "let others worry about their own paths" just doesn't cut it when you say that the whole Torah is a forgery. Like it or not, our Torah is our constitution. Just as Americans shouldn't run to Communism and dis our Constitution in our law schools and courtrooms - so too should YU not invite James Kugel - plain and simple. Are you with the program of Torah Judaism or against it?? ”

Your last line explains your entire attitude. You think of other frum yiddin who don't dress like you and learned by other roshai yeshiva as a difference of 'us' and 'them'. NO NOT TRUE. I RESPECT ALL YIDDIN AND HAVE FRIENDS IN HASIDIC, SFARDIC, SATMAR AND CHARDAL CIRCLES- I ALSO READ KUGEL -COMPLETELY AND BEFORE YOU LABEL AND NAME CALL ME - REALIZE THAT THE RAMBAM WOULD CALL HIM A REAL KOFER

Wake up, buddy boy. This ain't camp agudah and we ain't picking sides for color war. NEVER WENT TO CAMP AGUDAH - DID GO TO MOSHAVA, SOLOMON SHECHTER DAY SCHOOL THOUGH.. NOT BEING DIVISIVE BUT TRUTHFUL AND BY THE WAY EVERY CHARDA, SEFARDI, SATMAR, AND YESHIVESH FRUM GUY WOULD AGREE THAT KUGELS BOOK IS TREIFER THAN WELHAUSEN

This is real life. Needless machlokes just keeps driving us further and further into galus. NEEDLESS MACHLOKES?? THE MAN HAS SO THOROUGHLY TRIED TO UNDERMINE TORAH MISINAI THAT YOU COULD NOT DO A BETTER JOV IF YOU TRIED.. READ THE BOOK AND THEN COME BACK TO ME WITH AN APOLOGY

Read his book??? His book is Apikorsus!!! What business did you have to read it??? Did you learn in YU where they have hetairim for everything?

146

 Jan 01, 2009 at 10:33 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #137  
Anonymous Says:

Reply to #123
Anonymous Says:
“ All this talk is bogus. If you read kugel's book and if you read the Rambam you will see that the two are mutually exclusive. 121 saying "let others worry about their own paths" just doesn't cut it when you say that the whole Torah is a forgery. Like it or not, our Torah is our constitution. Just as Americans shouldn't run to Communism and dis our Constitution in our law schools and courtrooms - so too should YU not invite James Kugel - plain and simple. Are you with the program of Torah Judaism or against it?? ”

Your last line explains your entire attitude. You think of other frum yiddin who don't dress like you and learned by other roshai yeshiva as a difference of 'us' and 'them'. NO NOT TRUE. I RESPECT ALL YIDDIN AND HAVE FRIENDS IN HASIDIC, SFARDIC, SATMAR AND CHARDAL CIRCLES- I ALSO READ KUGEL -COMPLETELY AND BEFORE YOU LABEL AND NAME CALL ME - REALIZE THAT THE RAMBAM WOULD CALL HIM A REAL KOFER

Wake up, buddy boy. This ain't camp agudah and we ain't picking sides for color war. NEVER WENT TO CAMP AGUDAH - DID GO TO MOSHAVA, SOLOMON SHECHTER DAY SCHOOL THOUGH.. NOT BEING DIVISIVE BUT TRUTHFUL AND BY THE WAY EVERY CHARDA, SEFARDI, SATMAR, AND YESHIVESH FRUM GUY WOULD AGREE THAT KUGELS BOOK IS TREIFER THAN WELHAUSEN

This is real life. Needless machlokes just keeps driving us further and further into galus. NEEDLESS MACHLOKES?? THE MAN HAS SO THOROUGHLY TRIED TO UNDERMINE TORAH MISINAI THAT YOU COULD NOT DO A BETTER JOV IF YOU TRIED.. READ THE BOOK AND THEN COME BACK TO ME WITH AN APOLOGY

What is it that he has done that makes you claim something so silly as the claim that he has done more to undermine yiddishkeit than anyone else???

147

 Jan 01, 2009 at 10:40 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #137  
Anonymous Says:

Reply to #123
Anonymous Says:
“ All this talk is bogus. If you read kugel's book and if you read the Rambam you will see that the two are mutually exclusive. 121 saying "let others worry about their own paths" just doesn't cut it when you say that the whole Torah is a forgery. Like it or not, our Torah is our constitution. Just as Americans shouldn't run to Communism and dis our Constitution in our law schools and courtrooms - so too should YU not invite James Kugel - plain and simple. Are you with the program of Torah Judaism or against it?? ”

Your last line explains your entire attitude. You think of other frum yiddin who don't dress like you and learned by other roshai yeshiva as a difference of 'us' and 'them'. NO NOT TRUE. I RESPECT ALL YIDDIN AND HAVE FRIENDS IN HASIDIC, SFARDIC, SATMAR AND CHARDAL CIRCLES- I ALSO READ KUGEL -COMPLETELY AND BEFORE YOU LABEL AND NAME CALL ME - REALIZE THAT THE RAMBAM WOULD CALL HIM A REAL KOFER

Wake up, buddy boy. This ain't camp agudah and we ain't picking sides for color war. NEVER WENT TO CAMP AGUDAH - DID GO TO MOSHAVA, SOLOMON SHECHTER DAY SCHOOL THOUGH.. NOT BEING DIVISIVE BUT TRUTHFUL AND BY THE WAY EVERY CHARDA, SEFARDI, SATMAR, AND YESHIVESH FRUM GUY WOULD AGREE THAT KUGELS BOOK IS TREIFER THAN WELHAUSEN

This is real life. Needless machlokes just keeps driving us further and further into galus. NEEDLESS MACHLOKES?? THE MAN HAS SO THOROUGHLY TRIED TO UNDERMINE TORAH MISINAI THAT YOU COULD NOT DO A BETTER JOV IF YOU TRIED.. READ THE BOOK AND THEN COME BACK TO ME WITH AN APOLOGY

Are you suggesting I read APIKORSUS???!!!

Look what reading it has done to you!

It has twisted your mind and turned your heart away from the ways of toirah. Darchai'hoh darchai noi'am. V'ahavta lerai'achoh kamochoh.

148

 Jan 02, 2009 at 01:25 PM Anonymous Says:

There is the problem. You were educated in a Conservative 'yeshiva' so you have no idea how important achdus is to klal yisroel. Your attitude will never be right because from an early age you were taught to think like a goy, not like a yid.


Oh, you are so right.. So I am the "goy" who says YU should not let a koifer beikar speak in Stern in YU and you are the "Yid" who preserves achdus for klal yisroel by having kofrim beikkar speaking to yiddishe neshamos.. You have clearly taken drugs and have blown your mind.. Speak to any, repeat any, Rav including the Roshei Yeshiva at YU (who I respect greatly) whether this should have been allowed and whether your posts are off the wall or not..

149

 Jan 03, 2009 at 04:48 AM yam_613 Says:

Reply to #14  
Anonymous Says:

You seem to be confusing different parts of YU here. The RIETS rabbeim and talmidim had nothing to do with this event. Whether it's a good thing or not, the fact is that students at YU can organize events on their own without them being approved by the Roshei Yeshiva. This even was put together by some students who spend very little time in the Beis Medrash and in no way reflects on the serious B'nai Torah and Rabbeim at RIETS who were probably all outraged by the event, as they should be.

-a RIETS student

"This even[t] was put together by some students who spend very little time in the Beis Medrash and in no way reflects on the serious B'nai Torah and Rabbeim at RIETS who were probably all outraged by the event, as they should be. "

Don't judge your fellow students.

150

 Jan 03, 2009 at 08:32 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #148  
Anonymous Says:

There is the problem. You were educated in a Conservative 'yeshiva' so you have no idea how important achdus is to klal yisroel. Your attitude will never be right because from an early age you were taught to think like a goy, not like a yid.


Oh, you are so right.. So I am the "goy" who says YU should not let a koifer beikar speak in Stern in YU and you are the "Yid" who preserves achdus for klal yisroel by having kofrim beikkar speaking to yiddishe neshamos.. You have clearly taken drugs and have blown your mind.. Speak to any, repeat any, Rav including the Roshei Yeshiva at YU (who I respect greatly) whether this should have been allowed and whether your posts are off the wall or not..

I'd respond to your points but the more you post and the crazier things you write in your comments the level to which your twisted hashkafos and your ugly sinah for other yiddin that you learned as a child in a Conservative 'yeshiva' and 'shul' becomes more and more obvious.

We see chazal were right - timtum halaiv.

151

 Jan 03, 2009 at 10:03 PM GTE Says:

Reply to #70  
moishe Says:

#69...what you say is pure apikorses...not surprizing from heter gay yeshivah(sic) univesity. can you refer to where the rambasm says certain stories never happened?

I think what 69 is referring to is that the Rambam does not hold that angels are not physical beings and therefore any whenever an angel is mentioned in Tanach it is a Nevua and not a physical event ( I believe the Rambam can be found in Moreh Nevuchim chelek bet perek 41, if you look in the Ramban in vayeirah he disagrees strongly with the Rambam-but this is no doubt the opinion of the Ramabam).

152

 Jan 03, 2009 at 10:50 PM GTE Says:

Reply to #134  
Motti Says:

Each time I hear "Yeshiva University" mentioned, it is in relation to domething which does either contradict or completly oppose Halacha!
Most recently I spoke to a reform convert who attends a consrvadox shul (what else are they going to come up with), who's Rabbi is a graduate from the "Yeshiva University". He told me that he is recognised as Jewish there an receives all the privileges, such as Aliyos to the Toah, Haggbah and even davening from the Amud.
This is more then disturbing, rendering this Organisation secular and liberal.
Members of the Orthodox, may it be modern or other, should not send their children there.
I feel that people in NY should demonstrate against YU and engage in its closing or otherwise exclude it of orthodox circles.
Again, by inviting such people as Mr Kugel, they have proven that they are not worthy of our support!

Motti, I feel that you are misinformed about YU. I am a YU Musmach who learned under great talmidei chachamim who are well known and well respected in all circles. Firstly, almost every Yeshiva has students who do not adhere to Halachah. None of the Yeshivas would say that that person exemplifies what their institution preaches. So the fact that you know a person who is not jewish yet recognized as Jewish by a YU graduate shows nothing about the institution. Secondly, there is far more learning and positive things going on in YU than not. There are communities throughout the US that now have YU Kollels as the sole source of learning. There are YU graduates who teach in Jewish day schools across America spreading Yiddishkeit. The fact that all YOU hear are the negative things really does not reflect anything about the Yeshiva. Do your due diligence to go and see what goes on there and you willbe completely shocked as to how much learning and growth YU provides to most who go through there. As far as Mr. Kugel I really don't know anything about him. I do know that there is certainly an issur of Lashon Hara if you don't know the facts first hand and this article is not very convincing. If he is indeed an Apikores Al Pi HALACHA than it was wrong to have him speak. However, if one would properly understand the dynamics of how things work in YU they would realize that most likely none of the roshei yeshiva had any idea that he was going to speak and possibly they have no idea that he even spoke. Furthermore, in YU not everything is run by the roshei yeshiva. Hope that helps clear thing up.

153

 Jan 04, 2009 at 06:16 AM Motti Says:

Reply to #138  
Anonymous Says:

If you hate YU so much you'd better stop eating. There is not a single hechsher in America that does not depend on the OU to one extent or another and the OU is loaded with YU musmochim.

I'm happy to say that I do not eat or drink anything with an OU Herscher!
Living in Europe gives me the choise to chose from a variety of European Herscherim, definitly better then OU!
So, I'm against YU and do my part about it.

154

 Jan 04, 2009 at 01:18 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #153  
Motti Says:

I'm happy to say that I do not eat or drink anything with an OU Herscher!
Living in Europe gives me the choise to chose from a variety of European Herscherim, definitly better then OU!
So, I'm against YU and do my part about it.

Great. Keep doing your part to help machlokes and sinas chinam alive and well in klal yisroel. 1,938 years of galus haven't been enough. Do your part to keep us here a little longer.

155

Sign-in to post a comment

Click here to sign-in.

Scroll Up
Advertisements:

Sell your scrap gold and broken jewelry and earn hard cash sell gold today!