“ Astoundingly beautiful peice and very informative. As soon as I watched the video of the "godol" screaming like a raving madman against the questioner and the topic I realized he was doing it not out of anger rather out of his ignorance of the Tiferes Yisroel's approach and the many was to reconcile torah and earth science. We learned some of these approaches in chassidishe cheder and this "koton" (the bully who approved sending the kid to Jamaica Bay) couldn't reply with a single one. Thank you rabbi Billet. ”

“ Astoundingly beautiful peice and very informative. As soon as I watched the video of the "godol" screaming like a raving madman against the questioner and the topic I realized he was doing it not out of anger rather out of his ignorance of the Tiferes Yisroel's approach and the many was to reconcile torah and earth science. We learned some of these approaches in chassidishe cheder and this "koton" (the bully who approved sending the kid to Jamaica Bay) couldn't reply with a single one. Thank you rabbi Billet. ”

“ Rabbeinu Bachai talks about this at length in several places. He talks about seven 7000 year cycles (I believe he says we're in number 6) like shemittah and yovel.

In any case, the answer is probably a combination of 4 and 5.

Interestingly the Ramban talks about the big bang theory (the universe was created yesh m'ayin the size of a mustard seed), and other meforshim talk about the ohr haganuz in terms consistent with early cosmology and the accelerated big bang theory.

I wouldn't get to wrapped around the axle about all of this. That's why there's a big "Beise" at the beginning of the Torah - think of it as a large bracket, which says don't worry so much about what happened before... ”

“ I have problems with the very concept of what I call "Torah apologetics" or the practice of finding ways to make the Torah fit into today's scientific frams of reference.

I love physics and cosmology. I also do hold from a very literal interpretation of creation. A rov asked me 4 years ago, what I felt about any possible conflicts, are there really conflicts, can they be explained, and how I deal with it.

I responded that when I was a bochur and when I was in my 20's, I felt I NEEDED to have answers to every question.

Then, I read a sefer/book put out from some frum people who were publishing this sefer/book sort of in their rebbe's name. It supposedly was full of scientific explanations that make all fit.
As I read this sefer/book, I realized the science was VERY immature, frequently misquoted and incorrect, and very out of date. So, someone who based his belief in the fit of Torah and Science on that book, and then went out and learned the science we know today, including many things which are well proven by successful experimentation, and already successfully put to practical use, would begin to doubt his belief, since the science in this book was really awful.

So, I finally came to the conclusion of: TAIKU
Tishbi Yitaretz.

I do not need to know it all. I can learn the physics and other sciences, and understand them. I can learn Torah and understand it, and believe every letter of every word.
Oy, some things do not make sense? No problem, I don't need all the answers.
When Moshiach comes, hopefully really soon, I will ask him.. I will say, "Sit down, Reb Moshiach, I have a few questions for you...."

Until then, I know that our Torah HaKedosha is Emes, to the letter.
I can also know that the good science of today may not agree.
I can also know that I do not have the solution.
No longer my job to solve these mysteries.
Hashem Yisburach created this confusion, let Him straighten it out. Not my job any more. I call this growing up.... well at least in this. ”

“ In my humble opinion, anyone who thinks they can read the Torah and figure out "how old" the world is should have his head examined. First, time is not an absolute, it is relative to space as Einstein showed. So Hashem created everything (including space) during the "six days" of creation, golly if you can tell me how to know what "time" means during that period. Furthermore, if you take the six "days" as literal 24-hour days, I challenge you to explain how there could be days before the sun was created (on the fourth "day") - without sunrise and sunset, where do you get a day from? Hashem's watch?

Clearly the six "days" are meant in the sense of "epochs". That being the case, the Torah's account of creation is not at odds with the scientific evidence that the world is millions of years old.

Now, it's one thing if you have trouble accepting this idea. But to brand others as apikorsim or worse because they are open to this possibility (discussed by great Torah authorities throughout the centuries), is evidence of a feeble mind that cannot deal with reality.
”

“ no ones comment counts untill they see gilyon haHhas pesachim 94b what Reb Akiva Eiger brings from Rabeinu Tam and Koheles 12:11 w/Rashi please don't comment untill both are seen ”

“ What Rabbi Schechter was saying is that if your yeshivish than you have no business with the hidden torah!! Ok thats their derech, so what does Rabbi Billet have against that?. Its not a new derech thas the way the litvishe always held that the hidden torah is not for ordinary folk!!!. ”

“ The ability to ask questions is a major factor in what separates us from Christianity. They believe that theological conflict is for the ecclesiastical hierarchy and not for the lay person. "Just pray my son" is what a priest would say. Torah demands that we ask questions and probe every inconsistency. Talmud as a whole is the resolution of religious conflict. We are commanded not to bury our heads in the sand but to ask. Our religion thrives on the fact that inquisitiveness is not labeled Apikorsus. It would be irresponsible to deny science outright. Scientists are not out to disprove our religious beliefs, rather to find absolute absolute scientific truth. They are not evil. Resolving a Torah / Science conflict is a beautiful Kiddush Has**m Torah study is a unique concept as far as religion goes. It decentralizes power and does not allow for an absolute ruler (ie Pope). Taking the ability to "ask" away is truly Apikorsus. ”

“ I have problems with the very concept of what I call "Torah apologetics" or the practice of finding ways to make the Torah fit into today's scientific frams of reference.

I love physics and cosmology. I also do hold from a very literal interpretation of creation. A rov asked me 4 years ago, what I felt about any possible conflicts, are there really conflicts, can they be explained, and how I deal with it.

I responded that when I was a bochur and when I was in my 20's, I felt I NEEDED to have answers to every question.

Then, I read a sefer/book put out from some frum people who were publishing this sefer/book sort of in their rebbe's name. It supposedly was full of scientific explanations that make all fit.
As I read this sefer/book, I realized the science was VERY immature, frequently misquoted and incorrect, and very out of date. So, someone who based his belief in the fit of Torah and Science on that book, and then went out and learned the science we know today, including many things which are well proven by successful experimentation, and already successfully put to practical use, would begin to doubt his belief, since the science in this book was really awful.

So, I finally came to the conclusion of: TAIKU
Tishbi Yitaretz.

I do not need to know it all. I can learn the physics and other sciences, and understand them. I can learn Torah and understand it, and believe every letter of every word.
Oy, some things do not make sense? No problem, I don't need all the answers.
When Moshiach comes, hopefully really soon, I will ask him.. I will say, "Sit down, Reb Moshiach, I have a few questions for you...."

Until then, I know that our Torah HaKedosha is Emes, to the letter.
I can also know that the good science of today may not agree.
I can also know that I do not have the solution.
No longer my job to solve these mysteries.
Hashem Yisburach created this confusion, let Him straighten it out. Not my job any more. I call this growing up.... well at least in this. ”

“ Not to disagree with you, but in certain circles of Judaism (like the one I grew up in) we were allowed to ask questions as long as we never questioned the answers. We had to accept whatever the rebbe said as complete truth, or else we were branded Apikorsim. To this day my faith suffers because of this, since i was made accustom to automatically doubt any truth about Judaism until I'm certain that it comes from an intelligent, authoritative source, not from ignorant brainwashers like my highschool rebbeim. Thank G-d for people like Rabbi Billet who are willing to deal with real faith issues and not bury their heads in the sand, because without them I probably would not be frum today. ”

“ The great tzaddik and thinker, Rabbi Avigdor Miller zt"l, felt strongly that the Tiferes Yisrael on this subject was totally wrong. In fact he would personally rip out the pages on this topic from the volume it was in and told everyone to do the same. ”

“ The great tzaddik and thinker, Rabbi Avigdor Miller zt"l, felt strongly that the Tiferes Yisrael on this subject was totally wrong. In fact he would personally rip out the pages on this topic from the volume it was in and told everyone to do the same. ”

“ As someone who is familiar with Yeshiva Chaim Berlin, let me clarify the matter. R' Aharon Schechter was not telling people to stick their heads in the ground. Rather, he was speaking to an Orthodox crowd in Teaneck [who he assumed are maaminim bnei maaminim] who wanted guidance on the question of the age of the world. His passionate response was that the Midrash teaches us that this discussion is to remain off limits for human beings. A Jew has a lot of tasks he is enjoined to do, and figuring out the age of the world is not one of them! Incidentally, this is a theme found in the writings of Rav Hutner zt"l. If he would have been speaking to irreligious Jews who want to become "believers" he would not have spoken the way he did. ”

“ Shloime writes, "4.- The Ramban does hold that it was regular 24 hours as they are now". That's not how Rav Dessler understands the Ramban. It was both a regular 24 hrs AND the subsequent 6,000 years -- even though they seem to be too different periods of two different lengths. It's because we don't really know how time works. Again, see my survey.

-micha ”

“ I have problems with the very concept of what I call "Torah apologetics" or the practice of finding ways to make the Torah fit into today's scientific frams of reference.

I love physics and cosmology. I also do hold from a very literal interpretation of creation. A rov asked me 4 years ago, what I felt about any possible conflicts, are there really conflicts, can they be explained, and how I deal with it.

I responded that when I was a bochur and when I was in my 20's, I felt I NEEDED to have answers to every question.

Then, I read a sefer/book put out from some frum people who were publishing this sefer/book sort of in their rebbe's name. It supposedly was full of scientific explanations that make all fit.
As I read this sefer/book, I realized the science was VERY immature, frequently misquoted and incorrect, and very out of date. So, someone who based his belief in the fit of Torah and Science on that book, and then went out and learned the science we know today, including many things which are well proven by successful experimentation, and already successfully put to practical use, would begin to doubt his belief, since the science in this book was really awful.

So, I finally came to the conclusion of: TAIKU
Tishbi Yitaretz.

I do not need to know it all. I can learn the physics and other sciences, and understand them. I can learn Torah and understand it, and believe every letter of every word.
Oy, some things do not make sense? No problem, I don't need all the answers.
When Moshiach comes, hopefully really soon, I will ask him.. I will say, "Sit down, Reb Moshiach, I have a few questions for you...."

Until then, I know that our Torah HaKedosha is Emes, to the letter.
I can also know that the good science of today may not agree.
I can also know that I do not have the solution.
No longer my job to solve these mysteries.
Hashem Yisburach created this confusion, let Him straighten it out. Not my job any more. I call this growing up.... well at least in this. ”

“ I have problems with the very concept of what I call "Torah apologetics" or the practice of finding ways to make the Torah fit into today's scientific frams of reference.

I love physics and cosmology. I also do hold from a very literal interpretation of creation. A rov asked me 4 years ago, what I felt about any possible conflicts, are there really conflicts, can they be explained, and how I deal with it.

I responded that when I was a bochur and when I was in my 20's, I felt I NEEDED to have answers to every question.

Then, I read a sefer/book put out from some frum people who were publishing this sefer/book sort of in their rebbe's name. It supposedly was full of scientific explanations that make all fit.
As I read this sefer/book, I realized the science was VERY immature, frequently misquoted and incorrect, and very out of date. So, someone who based his belief in the fit of Torah and Science on that book, and then went out and learned the science we know today, including many things which are well proven by successful experimentation, and already successfully put to practical use, would begin to doubt his belief, since the science in this book was really awful.

So, I finally came to the conclusion of: TAIKU
Tishbi Yitaretz.

I do not need to know it all. I can learn the physics and other sciences, and understand them. I can learn Torah and understand it, and believe every letter of every word.
Oy, some things do not make sense? No problem, I don't need all the answers.
When Moshiach comes, hopefully really soon, I will ask him.. I will say, "Sit down, Reb Moshiach, I have a few questions for you...."

Until then, I know that our Torah HaKedosha is Emes, to the letter.
I can also know that the good science of today may not agree.
I can also know that I do not have the solution.
No longer my job to solve these mysteries.
Hashem Yisburach created this confusion, let Him straighten it out. Not my job any more. I call this growing up.... well at least in this. ”

“ "1. Hashem created the Earth old. When the world was created there were layers of rocks and trees with rings etc. This means that scientific dating was fooled by the reality of creation. "

This idea originated with a 19th century British Christian and didn't get any support within that religion. It has no support from within our mesorah; it is NOT a Jewish explanation.


"2. The method of scientific dating is based on the assumption that the half-life of radioactive carbon is a constant. But that is only an assumption. We have no way of knowing if it changed over the centuries since this data is a relatively recent discovery. This questions the validity of this scientific method of dating the earth. "

In fact, the prevalence of Carbon 14 does vary for a number of reasons including human activity and variability in the intensity of cosmic radiation. Therefore it is calibrated to independent tree ring and ocean sediment data for essentially the entirety of the period for which it is accurate, which is about 20,000 years before the present. There is other, overwhelming evidence that the universe is billions of years old, including other radioisotopes. Interestingly, the very evidence that conclusively proved the "big bang" theory correct also proves the multi-billion year age of the universe -- the cosmic microwave background radiation. It would have a different spectrum if the earth were younger.


"3. The flood wreaked havoc on the natural world that was created 5769 years ago and changed the natural reality to such an extent that the earth that remained after the flood yielded different properties from the original created ones. That is what threw the scientists off base. "

Even the gemara itself says that the flood did not cover the entire world, as it specifically says Eretz Yisrael was not covered. I find it interesting that there exists both physical evidence and oral tradition of devastating floods from lots of places in the world, but not everywhere.


Explanations #4 and #5 are not problematic.


Anonymous #1: "There has always been a conflict between science and religion."

I am a working scientist and I see none. If you think that there is, then you don't have sufficient understanding of one, the other, or both.


Askikpeh Hanidreses #30: "the Tiferes Yisroel lived at the same time of Darwin"

Interestingly, Darwin's 200th birthday is next Thursday. He was born the same day as Abraham Lincoln.

"the fossil record doesn’t exist, and the few fossils that were found were made to look as it fits into a puzzle by pure imagination"

WADR to Rabbi Miller z'tz'l, this is not correct. In fact, recent discoveries have shown that fossil records correlate well with genetic variability among current living species. For example, there was a publication several years ago that showed that the current genetic variability of the world's living cat species correlates very well with fossil patterns that document migration of cats across the world. The genetic data was published online as a supplement, it was hundreds of pages long. No opponent of evolution has come up with an alternative explanation for these data.



Shloime #33: "often times, science, or rather scientists, well, 'changes it's mind' . "

Science doesn't 'change its mind' so much as the fact that scientists have to accept the primacy of empirical data, which sometimes contradicts what was previously believed. Judaism is actually the same way; you have to know *objectively* whether a piece of meat is kosher or not, you have to know what time to daven, etc. If you reject the authority of the empirical facts that HaShem has created, how can you practice Judaism? No rabbi can declare a pig to be a kosher animal or declare Shabat not to be Shabat.


Thank you, Rabbi Billet, for this excellent essay.
”

“ The Chasam Sofer writes explicitly that the world operates in cycles of 6000 years of life and 1000 years of desolation, and we have a kabalah from our Chachomim that we are in the second cycle. It can very well be that what we know as constant time did not exist then or during the six days of creation. ”

“ R A S stated as a fact that "kvod alokim haster davar" means you can't cogitate or ruminate about the 6 days of creation. However its not clear at all that his facts are in order. If you look at that Midrash, the primary comentator on medrash (on the side, R"ZV ) states clearly that the referenced medrash is a daas yochid (a lone opinion), and brings what he states is the correct girsa of the same chazal brought in the Talmud yirushalmi that says that inquiring about PRE maaseh beraishis is forbidden (before GD created the world), but from the first day of creation and on we can inquire. He additionally cites several other medrashim that agree with the yerushlmi.

RAS' atitude that if you have a question, yell at the questioner and tell him to bury it, works for some people, but for an adult crowd in teaneck it seems a little pedantic.

Given the rich and varied opinions by Chazal as well as rishonim and achronim as to the age of the world, there are probably less contumacious ways to address an intelligent crowd on this topic.

”

“ As someone who is familiar with Yeshiva Chaim Berlin, let me clarify the matter. R' Aharon Schechter was not telling people to stick their heads in the ground. Rather, he was speaking to an Orthodox crowd in Teaneck [who he assumed are maaminim bnei maaminim] who wanted guidance on the question of the age of the world. His passionate response was that the Midrash teaches us that this discussion is to remain off limits for human beings. A Jew has a lot of tasks he is enjoined to do, and figuring out the age of the world is not one of them! Incidentally, this is a theme found in the writings of Rav Hutner zt"l. If he would have been speaking to irreligious Jews who want to become "believers" he would not have spoken the way he did. ”

“ Rav Schecter's position that Jews should not concern themselves with the mechanics or details of the Bri'a is not realistic. In support of his position that it is not the business of Jews to concern themselves with this topic, he refers to the scientific proponent of the "big bang" theory who, when asked what caused the "big bang", replied that he did not and need not concern himself with that issue. That, according to Rav Shechter, is how Jews should treat the issue of the Bri'a. The difference however is that the scientist is doing research on a particular issue, i.e. how the planet Earth came into existence, and in concluding that it was the result of the "big bang" is not espousing any particular position with respect to how the "big bang" came about. He therefore has the luxury of not addressing the issue. On the other hand, Rav Schechter expects Jews to accept all of the tenets of the Torah, b'emnuah shlaymaw, and at the same time not concern themselves with certain questions about issues that they believe, rightly or wrongly, may conflict with those tenets. Not going to happen. ”

“ The great tzaddik and thinker, Rabbi Avigdor Miller zt"l, felt strongly that the Tiferes Yisrael on this subject was totally wrong. In fact he would personally rip out the pages on this topic from the volume it was in and told everyone to do the same. ”