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London - Rabbi’s Remarks On Same Sex Relationships Generate A Storm Of Controversy

Published on: May 28, 2017 04:10 PM
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FILE - Rabbi Joseph Dweck speaks at a Lights Out WWI Remembrance Ceremony at the Bevis Marks Synagogue on August 4, 2014 in London, United Kingdom.(Photo by Dan Dennison/Getty Images)FILE - Rabbi Joseph Dweck speaks at a Lights Out WWI Remembrance Ceremony at the Bevis Marks Synagogue on August 4, 2014 in London, United Kingdom.(Photo by Dan Dennison/Getty Images)

London - The senior rabbi of a Sephardic synagogue in London has found himself at the center of a raging firestorm after labeling the acceptance of same sex relationships as a “fantastic development for humanity.”

Rabbi Joseph Dweck, head of the 360 year old S&P Sephardi Community in the United Kingdom, gave a lecture earlier this month where he spoke openly about homosexuality, saying that same sex relationships allows people to express love for others without being viewed as “deviant or problematic” reported Britain’s Jewish News (http://bit.ly/2qwUjLj).

“The act remains an issue, but if we can deal with the peripheral issues, it changes how we address these things,” said Rabbi Dweck. “That’s good for society. If we do not hang our prejudices at the door, we will be on the outside. Society will move forward and the world is moving towards love.”

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Rabbi Dweck received his semicha from Rabbi Ovadia Yosef and is married to Rabbi Yosef’s granddaughter.  He earned a degree in liberal studies from Santa Monica College in California where he studied psychology and philosophy. 

Before officially stepping in as the senior rabbi at S&P Sephardi community in 2014, Rabbi Dweck served as former rabbi of the Syrian Congregation Shaare Shalom and headmaster of the Barkai Yeshiva, both in Brooklyn.

Rabbi Dweck said that it is people, not Jewish law, who oppose the same sex revolution.

“Whatever hang ups you have are yours,” said Rabbi Dweck,. “Don’t blame them on the Torah.”

London’s Jewish Chronicle (http://bit.ly/2qx2VkX), whose viewpoint on religious matters ranges from the secular to the Orthodox, described Rabbi Dweck’s 97 minute lecture as “courageous” and “nuanced” calling it “a sophisticated attempt to offer a view which is both faith to an Orthodox understanding of the Torah and at the same time open to new ways of thinking.”

But others had a far less positive reaction to Rabbi Dweck’s controversial statements.

Rabbi Aaron Bassous, a well known Sephardic rabbi in Golders Green, spared no criticism of Rabbi Dweck, calling his lecture “twisted, misguided and mistaken.”  Rabbi Bassous issued a statement with Beth Hamedrash Knesset Yehezkel saying that Rabbi Dweck’s words lacked halachic grounding.

“We have found it our obligation to warn the masses that his words are nothing and can only be defined as damaging.” 

Rabbonim in London criticized Rabbi Dweck for comparing feminism to homosexuality, calling both wonderful developments in society. They also took him to task for saying that as times change, what was once considered unacceptable might become possibly permissible today.

A meeting between Rabbi Bassous, a group of London dayanim and Rabbi Dweck resulted in audio of the lecture being removed from the S&P Community website.

Rabbi Dweck noted that the lecture had been taken down only to avoid controversy and that he was not distancing himself from his remarks.

“Nothing was said contrary to Jewish law, nor was it a political statement of any kind,” said Rabbi Dweck.  It has only been removed from our website because the study of Torah should not cause needless arguments.”

In an interview with Israeli news site Kikar Hashabat (http://bit.ly/2qwXouM), Rabbi Dweck defended his remarks, stressing the importance of an open minded approach to societal tends.

“We are losing our youth because if they have to choose between including different types of people in our community and Torah, they will choose inclusion,” said Rabbi Dweck. “This is a big problem and in my opinion, it is forbidden for rabbonim to ignore it.”

Now that his remarks are no longer available online, Rabbi Dweck said that he believes that Rabbi Bassous is alone in his opposition to the statements on homosexuality.  Rabbi Bassous will be giving a shiur on Monday night at Beth Hamedrash Knesset Yehezkel in Golders Green addressing Rabbi Dweck’s remarks.

“It’s hard to believe that these words came out of the mouth of someone who describes himself as an Orthodox rabbi,” said Rabbi Bassous.



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Read Comments (31)  —  Post Yours »

1

 May 28, 2017 at 05:58 PM Curiosity Says:

Sounds like this Rabbi lost his foundations.

2

 May 28, 2017 at 06:10 PM happypappy Says:

According ro LGBT, they consider themselves an " alternative lifestyle".
Alternative means, for example, different routes that u can take to get feom where i live, miami, to disney. You van take a highway, toll road or avoid all highways with state roads. But all roads lead to disney.

Forget aboit referring to religion. The purpose of life according to basic science, is the ability to procreate and perpetuate your species. LGBT lifestyle can never achieve this if this were the accepted norm.

Was LGBT ever accepted as norm?One needs to read about ancjent Greece and Rome, where homksexualkty was acrually the preferred lifestyle as umwanted female babies were left for dead in wells or stuffed in jars. Their Empires imploded and disappeared with the drastic decline of population, as well as culture and values.

That is why, on a secular, non religious perspective, the nations with the most babies survive and make the rules.
LGBT only promotes a historically failed lifestyle that has proved unsustainable.

3

 May 28, 2017 at 06:39 PM Anonymous Says:

"The Bevis Shul". Bevis and Dreck head.

4

 May 28, 2017 at 07:30 PM Anonymous Says:

The people who get worked up about this issue are usually the ones who are leading double lives and have issues with lust. Most recent case is Daniel Greer. Was against gay marriage in public and having relations with boys in private.

5

 May 28, 2017 at 07:50 PM yamsar Says:

Reply to #2  
happypappy Says:

According ro LGBT, they consider themselves an " alternative lifestyle".
Alternative means, for example, different routes that u can take to get feom where i live, miami, to disney. You van take a highway, toll road or avoid all highways with state roads. But all roads lead to disney.

Forget aboit referring to religion. The purpose of life according to basic science, is the ability to procreate and perpetuate your species. LGBT lifestyle can never achieve this if this were the accepted norm.

Was LGBT ever accepted as norm?One needs to read about ancjent Greece and Rome, where homksexualkty was acrually the preferred lifestyle as umwanted female babies were left for dead in wells or stuffed in jars. Their Empires imploded and disappeared with the drastic decline of population, as well as culture and values.

That is why, on a secular, non religious perspective, the nations with the most babies survive and make the rules.
LGBT only promotes a historically failed lifestyle that has proved unsustainable.

Are you drunk? You are an armchair historian living in a delusional reality. The decline of the Roman Empire because of homosexuality? Lol!!

6

 May 28, 2017 at 08:10 PM Anonymous Says:

two men are permitted to be friends, hug each other, be naked together, share a bed, live together. the one thing they can't do is a very specific act (note that the torah does not use the same language as with incest where [in english for our readers] "you shall not uncover the nakedness of...."). straight men who are married also know that there are limits to what they can do with their wife and obey it; gay men can too. a man has a mitzvah to get married and have children. it's also a mitzvah to fast on yom kippur and eat matzah and pesach. some men simply can't function intimately with a woman, some people are diabetic and can't fast, and some have intestinal disease and can't eat matzah. in all three cases, the person who doesn't do the mitzvah is exempt; they are not sinners. all three can do other mitzvas and be full members of the community. it's not a sin for a man to be in love with another man and want to share a life. why cause needless suffering when these guys can't marry women anyway, and why assume they're doing the sin? we don't assume that straight couples are having nidda relations. it's apicorus to say that Hashem made mistakes in creating gay people.

7

 May 28, 2017 at 09:43 PM Anonymous Says:

This is the key to this story: "He earned a degree in liberal studies from Santa Monica College in California where he studied psychology and philosophy".

In those few words, there is so much antithetical to, liHavdil, the holy Torah.

8

 May 28, 2017 at 09:51 PM happypappy Says:

Reply to #5  
yamsar Says:

Are you drunk? You are an armchair historian living in a delusional reality. The decline of the Roman Empire because of homosexuality? Lol!!

The undefeatable armies of greco rome were unstoppable bc their armies comprised of citizen soldiers not merceneries or conscripted men from conquered territories. The depleted populations due to homosexuality and rhe complete disregard of women, killimg female ba ies, resulted in a depleted army of citizen sodiers.
The other main issue was when the democratic system, were men were inspired and fought for their own properry and freedom, turned into a monarchy.
I am an armchair histlrian. I read . Read Carnage and culture by hanson and world perfect by Spiro.
Any books u would like to recommend supporting your view?

9

 May 28, 2017 at 10:02 PM qazxc Says:

Instead of mocking people predisposed to this desire we should thank HKBH every day that we don't face such a difficult nisayon.

10

 May 28, 2017 at 10:12 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

two men are permitted to be friends, hug each other, be naked together, share a bed, live together. the one thing they can't do is a very specific act (note that the torah does not use the same language as with incest where [in english for our readers] "you shall not uncover the nakedness of...."). straight men who are married also know that there are limits to what they can do with their wife and obey it; gay men can too. a man has a mitzvah to get married and have children. it's also a mitzvah to fast on yom kippur and eat matzah and pesach. some men simply can't function intimately with a woman, some people are diabetic and can't fast, and some have intestinal disease and can't eat matzah. in all three cases, the person who doesn't do the mitzvah is exempt; they are not sinners. all three can do other mitzvas and be full members of the community. it's not a sin for a man to be in love with another man and want to share a life. why cause needless suffering when these guys can't marry women anyway, and why assume they're doing the sin? we don't assume that straight couples are having nidda relations. it's apicorus to say that Hashem made mistakes in creating gay people.

There are so many errors in your post, that it's hard to know where to begin.
Which posek stated even 10% of what you claim?

Regarding the end of your post, there are specific reasons why a married couple is not considered suspect, CH"V, in engaging in marital relations when the wife is a Niddah. Those would not apply to a man with another man.

And even if your comparison, between a normal relationship and a homosexual one, would apply - and any married Torah Jew would know it does not - then two men who identify as homosexuals may certainly NOT be naked with each other - likely not ever.

To take, perhaps, a better comparison: if a person somehow really likes pork, I can't imagine any posek would tell you that he is allowed to order a pork sandwich to his house, with the expectation that he will not eat it. Yet you make a blanket assertion that two men who identify as homosexual may be naked together?

11

 May 28, 2017 at 10:46 PM Normal Says:

#6 thank you

12

 May 28, 2017 at 11:21 PM chezkyh Says:

the English people are very gullible a rabbi coming from New York is instantly put on a pedestal and at that point he could say anything and they will accept it they don't know how to decipher the New York sharpness and wittiness

13

 May 28, 2017 at 11:32 PM Reb Yid Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

two men are permitted to be friends, hug each other, be naked together, share a bed, live together. the one thing they can't do is a very specific act (note that the torah does not use the same language as with incest where [in english for our readers] "you shall not uncover the nakedness of...."). straight men who are married also know that there are limits to what they can do with their wife and obey it; gay men can too. a man has a mitzvah to get married and have children. it's also a mitzvah to fast on yom kippur and eat matzah and pesach. some men simply can't function intimately with a woman, some people are diabetic and can't fast, and some have intestinal disease and can't eat matzah. in all three cases, the person who doesn't do the mitzvah is exempt; they are not sinners. all three can do other mitzvas and be full members of the community. it's not a sin for a man to be in love with another man and want to share a life. why cause needless suffering when these guys can't marry women anyway, and why assume they're doing the sin? we don't assume that straight couples are having nidda relations. it's apicorus to say that Hashem made mistakes in creating gay people.

You missed the point. Rabbi Dwek wasn't saying what you're saying, that he's happy that two men can live together and be celibate. He's happy that two men engaging in mishkav zachor can do so openly and with societal approbation. That's the problem.

14

 May 29, 2017 at 08:23 AM Shlomo-1 Says:

Reply to #2  
happypappy Says:

According ro LGBT, they consider themselves an " alternative lifestyle".
Alternative means, for example, different routes that u can take to get feom where i live, miami, to disney. You van take a highway, toll road or avoid all highways with state roads. But all roads lead to disney.

Forget aboit referring to religion. The purpose of life according to basic science, is the ability to procreate and perpetuate your species. LGBT lifestyle can never achieve this if this were the accepted norm.

Was LGBT ever accepted as norm?One needs to read about ancjent Greece and Rome, where homksexualkty was acrually the preferred lifestyle as umwanted female babies were left for dead in wells or stuffed in jars. Their Empires imploded and disappeared with the drastic decline of population, as well as culture and values.

That is why, on a secular, non religious perspective, the nations with the most babies survive and make the rules.
LGBT only promotes a historically failed lifestyle that has proved unsustainable.

Where to start?
If you wish to refer to "basic science," you should read up on studies of the societal advantage conferred by having non-pair bonded adults in the population.
More "basic science" is the definition of "normal" which includes distinctions between concepts of usual, i.e. normal is what we usually find, and normal variation, i.e. variations from normal that are routinely found. For example, brown eyes are "normal" (most of the population) but blue eyes are a normal variant (~15% of the US population).
Linking acceptance of homosexuality to female infanticide and being the reason for the decline of the Greece and Rome is, being generous, a bit of a stretch.

The problem that we are left to deal with is that ~5% of the population is homosexual. Go to the bais medresh of any large yeshiva and admire the hundreds of boys learning. For every 1,000 in there, ~50 are gay.
This isn't a choice, it's not something they want, but it is reality.
What do you say to them?
Because the reality is that many will go OTD and some will commit suicide.
How is that acceptable?
We must find a compassionate, halachik, way to deal with them.

15

 May 29, 2017 at 08:34 AM Anonymous Says:

#7 The Rebbe RaShab didn't seem to have a problem with these things. he sought treatment from Sigmund Freud in 1903, who referred the Rashab to another Viennese psychoanalyst , his close disciple Wilhelm Stekel. the hasidim said it was for neurological problems, but Stekel himself had a very different summary of his problem.

#10 Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky shlit”a (the dean of the Talmudical Yeshiva of
Philadelphia) shares these views. You might disagree with them, but they are legitimate opinions on an issue that is not black and white.

Do they screen for sexual orientation at the mens Mikveh? Are there signs that say "no homosexuals allowed?" I've seen lots of very religious men hanging around stark naked together at the mikvehs of boro park and seagate. Please show us where the exact prohibition is against a man giving a full body massage to another man (or the prohibition against men wrestling or doing other contact things that could result in arousal), and while you're doing that, please show us what the proscribed punishment is for it. We were all taught that when you add you take away. Attitudes toward gay people is a great example of this.

16

 May 29, 2017 at 08:48 AM yamsar Says:

Reply to #8  
happypappy Says:

The undefeatable armies of greco rome were unstoppable bc their armies comprised of citizen soldiers not merceneries or conscripted men from conquered territories. The depleted populations due to homosexuality and rhe complete disregard of women, killimg female ba ies, resulted in a depleted army of citizen sodiers.
The other main issue was when the democratic system, were men were inspired and fought for their own properry and freedom, turned into a monarchy.
I am an armchair histlrian. I read . Read Carnage and culture by hanson and world perfect by Spiro.
Any books u would like to recommend supporting your view?

Precisely the MO of a armchair historian. "You read a book" and the question is now if I read one of two more books than you have. No sir. That's not how it works. Historians live history. It's a life career. It's what I get paid for. The main thrust for the decline of the Roman Empire was the spread of Christianity and its direct conflict with the Roman gods - specifically denying the belief that the Roman emperor is a god.

17

 May 29, 2017 at 08:49 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #10  
Anonymous Says:

There are so many errors in your post, that it's hard to know where to begin.
Which posek stated even 10% of what you claim?

Regarding the end of your post, there are specific reasons why a married couple is not considered suspect, CH"V, in engaging in marital relations when the wife is a Niddah. Those would not apply to a man with another man.

And even if your comparison, between a normal relationship and a homosexual one, would apply - and any married Torah Jew would know it does not - then two men who identify as homosexuals may certainly NOT be naked with each other - likely not ever.

To take, perhaps, a better comparison: if a person somehow really likes pork, I can't imagine any posek would tell you that he is allowed to order a pork sandwich to his house, with the expectation that he will not eat it. Yet you make a blanket assertion that two men who identify as homosexual may be naked together?

The Torah prohibits anal sex between men, while remaining silent regarding other forms of sexual intimacy between men and
between women.
Rambam explains that, although these intimate acts are not to be categorized as actual sexual intercourse, they are prohibited separately as “things that lead to prohibited sexual relations.” Hilkhot Issurei Biah 21:1

Rambam also writes in Hilkhot Issurei Biah 11:18:
It is forbidden for a man to get close to his wife in these seven ‘clean’ days, even though they both are fully clothed.

Our community today does not enforce, nor accept, these severe prohibitions.
In our day, despite the rise in open homosexual behavior, we regularly send our sons to sleep away at yeshiva or camp with same-sex roommates and participate in same-sex nakedness in showers, mikvoth, etc without a second thought.

18

 May 29, 2017 at 08:53 AM yamsar Says:

Reply to #10  
Anonymous Says:

There are so many errors in your post, that it's hard to know where to begin.
Which posek stated even 10% of what you claim?

Regarding the end of your post, there are specific reasons why a married couple is not considered suspect, CH"V, in engaging in marital relations when the wife is a Niddah. Those would not apply to a man with another man.

And even if your comparison, between a normal relationship and a homosexual one, would apply - and any married Torah Jew would know it does not - then two men who identify as homosexuals may certainly NOT be naked with each other - likely not ever.

To take, perhaps, a better comparison: if a person somehow really likes pork, I can't imagine any posek would tell you that he is allowed to order a pork sandwich to his house, with the expectation that he will not eat it. Yet you make a blanket assertion that two men who identify as homosexual may be naked together?

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with your premises and beliefs regarding homosexuality, I would just take issue with a underlying premise of your argument that a "posek" is a qualifier for any position. This, no doubt a result of your Haredi upbringing, is a mistaken belief. Anybody has a right to learn Torah and formulate an opinion. In any case the Rabbi in question is a posek, does he not qualify because you disagree with him?

19

 May 29, 2017 at 08:59 AM yamsar Says:

Reply to #15  
Anonymous Says:

#7 The Rebbe RaShab didn't seem to have a problem with these things. he sought treatment from Sigmund Freud in 1903, who referred the Rashab to another Viennese psychoanalyst , his close disciple Wilhelm Stekel. the hasidim said it was for neurological problems, but Stekel himself had a very different summary of his problem.

#10 Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky shlit”a (the dean of the Talmudical Yeshiva of
Philadelphia) shares these views. You might disagree with them, but they are legitimate opinions on an issue that is not black and white.

Do they screen for sexual orientation at the mens Mikveh? Are there signs that say "no homosexuals allowed?" I've seen lots of very religious men hanging around stark naked together at the mikvehs of boro park and seagate. Please show us where the exact prohibition is against a man giving a full body massage to another man (or the prohibition against men wrestling or doing other contact things that could result in arousal), and while you're doing that, please show us what the proscribed punishment is for it. We were all taught that when you add you take away. Attitudes toward gay people is a great example of this.

I'm not taking a stand one way or the other on the topic, but the simple understanding of Halacha is hard to reconcile with the rabbis views. It is a clear Halacha in shulchan aruch hilachos yichud that men who are attracted to other men must observe all halchos of yichud in the same way straight men have to observe yichud with strange women.

20

 May 29, 2017 at 10:46 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

two men are permitted to be friends, hug each other, be naked together, share a bed, live together. the one thing they can't do is a very specific act (note that the torah does not use the same language as with incest where [in english for our readers] "you shall not uncover the nakedness of...."). straight men who are married also know that there are limits to what they can do with their wife and obey it; gay men can too. a man has a mitzvah to get married and have children. it's also a mitzvah to fast on yom kippur and eat matzah and pesach. some men simply can't function intimately with a woman, some people are diabetic and can't fast, and some have intestinal disease and can't eat matzah. in all three cases, the person who doesn't do the mitzvah is exempt; they are not sinners. all three can do other mitzvas and be full members of the community. it's not a sin for a man to be in love with another man and want to share a life. why cause needless suffering when these guys can't marry women anyway, and why assume they're doing the sin? we don't assume that straight couples are having nidda relations. it's apicorus to say that Hashem made mistakes in creating gay people.

You are so off base, and some of the serious problems with your rant were addressed in earlier comments. For one thing, you assume that a homosexual act is all that is ossur. That is simply untrue. A gay lifestyle is also prohibited. Same gender people living as married, even if 100% celibate, are also living in sin.

To assume that a gay couple are actually living celibate is "assume". Even stupid people know that is not true.

Most males are not obligated to maintain hilchos yichud with other males, as there is no desire or suspicion. But a gay male would definitely have such restrictions, and halacha is clear on that. Your fabrications are a bigger problem of apikorsus that your ridiculous suggestion that Hashem "created gay people". He did not. People became gay. Stop the stupidity that has never been proven scientifically about a gay gene.

21

 May 29, 2017 at 10:49 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #7  
Anonymous Says:

This is the key to this story: "He earned a degree in liberal studies from Santa Monica College in California where he studied psychology and philosophy".

In those few words, there is so much antithetical to, liHavdil, the holy Torah.

I cannot speak specifically to that school. But the accusation that people learn to follow different philosophies in college is simply baseless. Most students absorb what they want. Psychology schools do not teach philosophy.

22

 May 29, 2017 at 11:38 AM Former Yeshiva Guy Says:

Reply to #14  
Shlomo-1 Says:

Where to start?
If you wish to refer to "basic science," you should read up on studies of the societal advantage conferred by having non-pair bonded adults in the population.
More "basic science" is the definition of "normal" which includes distinctions between concepts of usual, i.e. normal is what we usually find, and normal variation, i.e. variations from normal that are routinely found. For example, brown eyes are "normal" (most of the population) but blue eyes are a normal variant (~15% of the US population).
Linking acceptance of homosexuality to female infanticide and being the reason for the decline of the Greece and Rome is, being generous, a bit of a stretch.

The problem that we are left to deal with is that ~5% of the population is homosexual. Go to the bais medresh of any large yeshiva and admire the hundreds of boys learning. For every 1,000 in there, ~50 are gay.
This isn't a choice, it's not something they want, but it is reality.
What do you say to them?
Because the reality is that many will go OTD and some will commit suicide.
How is that acceptable?
We must find a compassionate, halachik, way to deal with them.

"The problem that we are left to deal with is that ~5% of the population is homosexual. Go to the bais medresh of any large yeshiva and admire the hundreds of boys learning. For every 1,000 in there, ~50 are gay."

That's not true. They are not "gay" Most of those 50 just never befriended girls. They lived their whole life with boys. Thus, their sexual desires are confined to guys. The second they start dating and interacting it changes. Me and some of my friends all dabbled in these things but have since moved on.

23

 May 29, 2017 at 11:41 AM yamsar Says:

Reply to #21  
Anonymous Says:

I cannot speak specifically to that school. But the accusation that people learn to follow different philosophies in college is simply baseless. Most students absorb what they want. Psychology schools do not teach philosophy.

You are trying to reason with a low brow remnant of the Neanderthal man. Forget it. You won't get too far.

24

 May 29, 2017 at 11:41 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #15  
Anonymous Says:

#7 The Rebbe RaShab didn't seem to have a problem with these things. he sought treatment from Sigmund Freud in 1903, who referred the Rashab to another Viennese psychoanalyst , his close disciple Wilhelm Stekel. the hasidim said it was for neurological problems, but Stekel himself had a very different summary of his problem.

#10 Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky shlit”a (the dean of the Talmudical Yeshiva of
Philadelphia) shares these views. You might disagree with them, but they are legitimate opinions on an issue that is not black and white.

Do they screen for sexual orientation at the mens Mikveh? Are there signs that say "no homosexuals allowed?" I've seen lots of very religious men hanging around stark naked together at the mikvehs of boro park and seagate. Please show us where the exact prohibition is against a man giving a full body massage to another man (or the prohibition against men wrestling or doing other contact things that could result in arousal), and while you're doing that, please show us what the proscribed punishment is for it. We were all taught that when you add you take away. Attitudes toward gay people is a great example of this.

"I've seen lots of very religious men hanging around stark naked together at the mikvehs of boro park and seagate."

Nonsense. They hang out and shmuz naked . But its not because they are thinking of these crazy thoughts. Its to the contrary. Because they have no thoughts about the other guy so who cares that he is naked. This is total fake news

25

 May 29, 2017 at 12:41 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #9  
qazxc Says:

Instead of mocking people predisposed to this desire we should thank HKBH every day that we don't face such a difficult nisayon.

WE SHOULD DO AS YOU SAY BUT GET THESE PEOPLE HELP

26

 May 29, 2017 at 12:56 PM happypappy Says:

Reply to #14  
Shlomo-1 Says:

Where to start?
If you wish to refer to "basic science," you should read up on studies of the societal advantage conferred by having non-pair bonded adults in the population.
More "basic science" is the definition of "normal" which includes distinctions between concepts of usual, i.e. normal is what we usually find, and normal variation, i.e. variations from normal that are routinely found. For example, brown eyes are "normal" (most of the population) but blue eyes are a normal variant (~15% of the US population).
Linking acceptance of homosexuality to female infanticide and being the reason for the decline of the Greece and Rome is, being generous, a bit of a stretch.

The problem that we are left to deal with is that ~5% of the population is homosexual. Go to the bais medresh of any large yeshiva and admire the hundreds of boys learning. For every 1,000 in there, ~50 are gay.
This isn't a choice, it's not something they want, but it is reality.
What do you say to them?
Because the reality is that many will go OTD and some will commit suicide.
How is that acceptable?
We must find a compassionate, halachik, way to deal with them.

Again, i recommend everyone to buy world perfect by ken spiro. Dont skip to, but the statistics presented on page 52, and the military history of greco-rome, detailed in Carnage and Culture by Victor Hanson, pinpoints one of the major reasons of greco-roman decline into oblivion.
Look at the current demographics of Western Europe. You dont even have to ne an armchair historian to see repeated history, as the Moslem popoulation slowly advancing and eventually overcoming western europe

27

 May 29, 2017 at 02:17 PM Anonymous Says:

#22...some studies show that as much as 10% of the population is homosexual and that's it's innate and not learned. Have no fear...it isn't contagious.

#20....You misquote #6. #6 didn't say we assume they're celibate. He said we assume that they're not practicing anal intercourse.

Recent studies show that homosexuality is not a choice. There isn't a "gene" for it, but there is a lot more to body chemistry than genetics.

Anyone who has studied the most basic things about homosexuality knows that the gay man's urge is to "receive". The act of performing sodomy is a heterosexual act (because homosexual men lack the penetrative urge).

In fact, the Red Cross used to have a policy of not accepted blood from gay men (for fear of AIDS) due to the risks of anal intercourse, and then changed their policy after learning that the wives of straight men are more than twice as likely to have had anal intercourse than a gay man is. I assume the Red Cross had good science behind their decision.

28

 May 29, 2017 at 05:24 PM Shlomo-1 Says:

Reply to #22  
Former Yeshiva Guy Says:

"The problem that we are left to deal with is that ~5% of the population is homosexual. Go to the bais medresh of any large yeshiva and admire the hundreds of boys learning. For every 1,000 in there, ~50 are gay."

That's not true. They are not "gay" Most of those 50 just never befriended girls. They lived their whole life with boys. Thus, their sexual desires are confined to guys. The second they start dating and interacting it changes. Me and some of my friends all dabbled in these things but have since moved on.

Sigh.
Yes, there are some that experiment and some who "dabble" due to a lack of alternatives. But, in general, around 5% of the population is gay and will not change because they start interacting with women.

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 May 29, 2017 at 09:37 PM happypappy Says:

Reply to #14  
Shlomo-1 Says:

Where to start?
If you wish to refer to "basic science," you should read up on studies of the societal advantage conferred by having non-pair bonded adults in the population.
More "basic science" is the definition of "normal" which includes distinctions between concepts of usual, i.e. normal is what we usually find, and normal variation, i.e. variations from normal that are routinely found. For example, brown eyes are "normal" (most of the population) but blue eyes are a normal variant (~15% of the US population).
Linking acceptance of homosexuality to female infanticide and being the reason for the decline of the Greece and Rome is, being generous, a bit of a stretch.

The problem that we are left to deal with is that ~5% of the population is homosexual. Go to the bais medresh of any large yeshiva and admire the hundreds of boys learning. For every 1,000 in there, ~50 are gay.
This isn't a choice, it's not something they want, but it is reality.
What do you say to them?
Because the reality is that many will go OTD and some will commit suicide.
How is that acceptable?
We must find a compassionate, halachik, way to deal with them.

Again, i recommend everyone to buy world perfect by ken spiro. Dont skip to, but the statistics presented on page 52, and the military history of greco-rome, detailed in Carnage and Culture by Victor Hanson, pinpoints one of the major reasons of greco-roman decline into oblivion.
Look at the current demographics of Western Europe. You dont even have to ne an armchair historian to see repeated history, as the Moslem popoulation slowly advancing and eventually overcoming western europe

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 Jun 02, 2017 at 12:18 PM sombatyonerchosid Says:

Reply to #20  
Anonymous Says:

You are so off base, and some of the serious problems with your rant were addressed in earlier comments. For one thing, you assume that a homosexual act is all that is ossur. That is simply untrue. A gay lifestyle is also prohibited. Same gender people living as married, even if 100% celibate, are also living in sin.

To assume that a gay couple are actually living celibate is "assume". Even stupid people know that is not true.

Most males are not obligated to maintain hilchos yichud with other males, as there is no desire or suspicion. But a gay male would definitely have such restrictions, and halacha is clear on that. Your fabrications are a bigger problem of apikorsus that your ridiculous suggestion that Hashem "created gay people". He did not. People became gay. Stop the stupidity that has never been proven scientifically about a gay gene.

So when did you choose to become straight? If one's sexual orientation is completely volitional, prove it by changing yours for a week, assuming you're heterosexual, which I doubt due to your obsessive compulsive fixation on gay sex.

It isn't a lifestyle anymore than being tall or blond or fat is a lifestyle. Keep your eyes and nose out of the personal lives of others, why don't you? Unless someone is trying to sleep with you and you're not interested, you should concentrate on conducting yourself properly.

Happy PRIDE!

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 Jun 06, 2017 at 12:11 PM Chochmas_Israel Says:

Not clear to me what Dweck is saying. Sounds like he is trying to sound OK with it, and that gay rights is something of a chiddush that we can benefit from. Which , of course is nonsense. Human rights, yes. But since when has friendship been taboo?
Also not sure what A.B is saying? What makes Dweck worse than Loui Jacobs, who was koifer on Torah from Sinai?

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