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Brooklyn, NY - My Message For Tisha Ba'v: Judge Ruchie Freier: Reflections From The Bench On Judging Our Children

Published on: July 31, 2017 11:45 PM
By: Ruchie Freier
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Lt. Judge Carolyn Wade chats with Rachel Freier in Brooklyn, NY on December 22, 2016. Winner of the election for civil court judge in Brooklyn's 5th District, Rachel Freier, who is the first Hasidic woman to hold elective office in the United States, took her oath of office during an induction ceremony in Brooklyn's Borough Hall, administered by her uncle, retired Supreme Court judge David Schmidt (Photo by Andy Katz/Pacific Press) Lt. Judge Carolyn Wade chats with Rachel Freier in Brooklyn, NY on December 22, 2016. Winner of the election for civil court judge in Brooklyn's 5th District, Rachel Freier, who is the first Hasidic woman to hold elective office in the United States, took her oath of office during an induction ceremony in Brooklyn's Borough Hall, administered by her uncle, retired Supreme Court judge David Schmidt (Photo by Andy Katz/Pacific Press)

Brooklyn, NY -  I remember seven years ago when I first met 14 year old Malky Klein a”h.  She was sitting across me in the Seforim Room in my home.  She pensive yet pretty, wearing a long skirt and dressed B’Tznius.  Malky was wearing the uniform of the school that had expelled her because she was hurt and ashamed and did not want anyone to know that she had no school. 

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Her parents were worried as she was experiencing challenges; no high school wanted to accept her.  Since Malky’s passing, many people are coming forward attacking the “system” and warning us of the dire consequences.  What people don’t know is the missing piece to this story. 

During the early years of my community service, I began advocating for kids at risk and formed B’Derech focusing on adolescent Youth at Risk, primarily boys in the Chassidish Community.

My previous articles appeard here on VIN share my early experience.

One night, in late 2010, my aunt, Miriam Schwartz, called me.  “Ruchie, you must help me get my good friend Rifka Klein’s daughter into high school.”  My aunt explained that she knows this girl and her family for years and they were wonderful people. She explained there was a meeting tonight at a certain high school that Mrs. Klein was afraid to attend because if the other mothers see her, they would protest.

After meeting with Malky and her parents, I had several conversations with their Rav, the Krulla Rebbe of Williamsburg.  He was concerned and supportive and offered to assist me in helping the Klein family with whom he was close with. 

I pleaded with the principal, a kindhearted and righteous person, who was opening a new high school to accept Malky.  She was reluctant because there was negative information out there. 

I advocated and ultimately the principal acquiesced.  But, it was only after she quietly told me that several mothers were calling her exclaiming that if Malky Klein is accepted, they will take their daughters out of the school. 

In fact, the principal said that one of the mothers explained that she was related to the Kleins and thus had first hand information of what transpires in their home and strongly urged the Rebbetzin not to accept Malky.  This required my investigation which revealed that no such cousin existed.  This is merely one example of the exaggerated and/or false reports that were made by mothers in the class.

While Malky was truly grateful to be accepted into the school, she longed to be with her friends and dreamed of joining them.    When Malky completed 9th grade, she was still hopeful that if she worked with tutors and tried harder, and got better grades in 10th grade, she would be able to transfer for 11th grade. 

Malky personally wrote letters to other school principals and begged to be given the chance, all to no avail.  Alas, despite all her efforts she cried to her parents “What it takes girls in my class seconds to learn, takes me hours. If this is what it means to be a good girl, it’s not for me!” And that was the beginning of the tragic end for Malky.  A sweet girl, who was so misunderstood and hurt, despite the unconditional love of her wonderful parents.

As we reject more children, the death rate goes up.  The Chazon Ish said that a decision to expel a child is Dinei Nefoshos and halachically requires a Bais Din of 23 members. 

In this undated Photo Malky Klein is seen at the KotelIn this undated Photo Malky Klein is seen at the Kotel

The Torah relates that a Bais Din that killed once in 70 years was considered a Bais Din of murderers.  Yet our system has resulted in approximately 70 deaths in less than one year due to rejection, despite the fact that so many sources do not support this policy. 

In the Gemara, Bava Basra (21a) R’ Shmuel Bar Shilas, an Amoira who was an educator in his time, stated that the student who does not study or behave appropriately, should not be tortured or expelled.  Rather, he should be kept together with the other students for ultimately he will turn around. 

The Rishonim, such as Nimokei Yosef, use even stronger language saying that it is prohibited to send off such a student, even on the possibility that it will set his heart in the right place.  The Maharsha (in Ruach HaKodesh) writes that keeping the child where he is, will be a big benefit for the other students. 

The Michtav Eliyahu by HaRav Dessler, asks why Noach did not send his wayward son, Chom, during the mabul, to check what is happening outside?  Why did Noach send a bird?  He answers that when there is a mabul raging outside you do not throw someone out even if he behaves badly.  So what happened in our community; why have so many of our children been cast away – thrown overboard into dangerous and troubled waters?

The Baal Teshuva Movement and the OTD Movement

I grew up and went to school in the 1970’s and 1980’s; it was the generation that proved Hitler was wrong, we were the grandchildren of Holocaust survivors.  It was the era of the Baal Teshuva Movement, the struggle to free Soviet Jewry, and of the inspirational public figures, R’ Shlomo Carlebach and Rebbetzin Esther Jungreis, who would reach out to the multitudes of people who were “coming home.”  It was the time when R’ Noach Weinberg started Aish HaTorah and when we opened the Jewish radio we heard songs by Baalei Teshuva about Shabbos and Chanukah candles….  We walked around so proud to be Jewish. 

I had classmates from a variety of backgrounds, and some girls had parents who were not frum from birth.  We all got along, our teachers valued each student, and encouraged us to reach greater heights in our connection to Hashem.  Some girls in my class had learning disabilities, but in those years, we didn’t know it, we just knew they failed most of their tests.  No one thought that these girls didn’t belong….no one’s parents called the school to complain or have them expelled. 

Today most of my classmates, including the weaker students, are married with children and grandchildren.  During those decades, the term Off the Derech (OTD) did not exist in our community; nobody I knew left Yiddishkeit – we valued life and knew that while we had our differences, some of us Litvish, some Chassidish, some Misnagdim, etc. – each of us was created with a Tzelem Elokim and had a purpose.

Something changed in the 1990’s – we thought we knew better than our parents and we were going to bring Torah to a level of unsurpassed excellence – we heralded  the advent of  Mitzuyanim —yeshivas and schools with higher standards, and disenfranchised many students who could not keep up.  Thus began the Churban of our generation….the rejection of so many innocent children left behind, hurt and destroyed. 

The term Off the Derech had now been introduced into our lexicon as these rejected innocent souls turned to the streets and to drugs to numb their pain and leave Yiddishkeit, which they associated with shame and rejection.  And panic has ensued; parents are growing more concerned about what has become an epidemic with a vicious cycle of parents growing more alarmed, causing more children to be rejected, which only exacerbates the problem.

Some people compare the OTD movement to the Haskala movement which began in the late 18th century and was responsible for turning many away from Torah values.   There is a huge distinction between those who we lost to Haskala and the souls we are losing to the OTD movement. 

The Jews who joined the Haskala movement were beckoned by the outside world –they knew that in order to succeed in the professional world, to earn a college education and rise in academia, politics or the corporate world, one had to abandon Shabbos observance, traditional religious dress, etc.  That has changed, today one can be educated, enter the workforce, and even hold public office without compromising religious values.

However, the broken souls who are leaving the fold to join the OTD movement are being expelled by us!  They are given the message that they have no place in our community by schools and yeshivas who have shut the doors in their faces by expulsion or rejection.  It is more than twenty years since this churban began, and the rejection methods have not worked—we need to unite and champion true Torah values to solve our problem.

Achdus and Arvus

The value of Achdus – Unity among the Jewish People is undisputed.  The greatest moment in Jewish history was Matan Torah, the Revelation at Sinai, which is memorialized in history by the description K’Eesh Echad B’Lev Achad – Like One Man, with One Heart.  In an article by Devir Kahan, (Times of Israel 1/11/2016) the author writes, we mistakenly confuse Achdus with Achidus and Unity with Uniformity.  While we aspire harmony, we mistakenly demand conformity and stunt creative individuality and inhibit growth.

The root of the word Achdus is Ach which represents brotherhood – siblings share a connection which surpasses friendship or love.  As Jews we are bound together – that is our heritage.  Kol Yisroel Areivim Ze L’Zeh (Sanhedrin 27b and Shavuos 39a).  All Jews are guarantors for one another. 

The Gemara explains the case that when others are punished for a person’s sins, it refers to a case where the people could have protested and maybe prevented the person from sinning. Judaism mandates joint and mutual responsibility.  Mutual responsibility means I help you because I know that one day you will help me.  Joint responsibility, however, is where I help you simply because I am responsible for you as a fellow Jew without any expectation that you will reciprocate.

Through my role at B’Derech, I have had children cry to me that since losing a parent, they have been unable to learn. I have heard Almanos cry that since losing their husbands they have been unable to keep up with their responsibilities, and that their children are failing in school…the boy whose father had a stroke was crying because his home was not a place for him to thrive…It seems we are remiss in our mandate of joint responsibility, of Achdus.

Since my election to the bench, I have been interviewed and invited to speak to various groups around the world to share my story. 

I recently spoke to a group of school principals in Borough Park and urged them to accept that students may be different and recognize that not every student will “fit into the one size fits all box” which our system has evolved into.  I explained that I was the average student who always had questions…all the way through high school and seminary.  That my Bais Yaakov teachers, many who were students of Sara Schenirer, a”h, were patient and answered all my questions. 

By the time I graduated Bais Yaakov, I had all the answers and knew what was expected of me Beyn Adom L’Makom and Beyn Adom L’Chaveiro.  A few weeks after my lecture, one of the principals met me and in front of a group of women, made a point of telling me that she disagreed with what I said and walked out of the room during my speech to display her rejection of my hashkafos.  She also made sure to tell the Hanhala of my infraction. 

When I questioned what bothered her she explained that we cannot encourage questions from students and that our Derech is too keep the students in a box without allowing for creativity of thoughtNow this was my turn to be rejected and publicly humiliated by a school principal.  But, I am neither vulnerable nor an adolescent.  And, with a confident smile I told the principal that we will have to agree to disagree and still be friends.     

In this week’s parsha, Moshe Rabbeinu tells Klal Yisroel before he leaves this world….She’al Nah L’Yomim HaRishonim (V’Eschanon 4:32)At any given time and in any given place, just ask about Hashem’s miracles during Yetziyas Mitzrayim and Matan Torah

This most important point in Jewish history should be a topic of discussion and questions should be encouraged.  And, Moshe further states, Atah Horaysa L’Daas kee Hashem Hu HaElokim, Eyn Od Milvado. (ibid 4:35).  You were shown to KNOW that Hashem is our G-D.  Moshe is explaining that Hashem opened up the heavens to show us His strength because He wants us to know Him.  This is not about blind faith, rather it is about cultivating a relationship with Hashem and fulfilling His Mitzvos with the security of knowing Him.  In this way, we will experience our love for Hashem and the fulfillment of Ve’Ahavta Es Hashem Elokecha.   Our children need to graduate school with a Love of Yiddishkeit and Simcha in being a part of Klal Yisroel.

This principal reminded me of what we learned about the inhabitants of Sedom who were notorious for forcing everyone’s uniformity – Sanhedrin 109b states: They had beds [in Sedom] upon which travelers slept.  If he [the guest] was too long, they shortened him [by lopping off his feet]; if too short, they stretched him out.  Eliezer, Avroham’s servant, happened to go there.  They said to him, “Arise and sleep on the bed!”  He replied, “I vowed since the day of my mother’s death, not to sleep in a bed.”

 

VeAhavta LeReacha Kamocha vs. Chayecha Kodmin

VeAhavta LeReacha Kamocha (Kedoshim 19:18) Love your friend as you love yourself is one of the core principles of Judaism.  Rabbi Akiva teaches that this principle is a Klal Gadol BaTorah! (Talmud Yerushalmi Nedarim 9:4).  However, the same Rabbi Akiva seems to make a contradictory statement in the Gemara regarding what a person should do if he is travelling through a desert with a friend and only has enough water for one of them to survive.  (Bava Metziah 62a).  There, Rabbi Akiva interpreted the posuk “…. V’Chay Achicha Emuch… And your brother shall live with you” (Vayikra 25:36) as meaning ‘along with you’ or ‘secondary to you’.  He taught that one’s own life takes precedence over one’s fellow man. 

The Chasam Sofer explains that the word “Torah” from Zeh Klal Gadol B’Torah in Rabbi Akiva’s principle refers to the study of Torah to spirituality, Ruchniyus, and Olam HaBaah.  Conversely, Chayecha Kodmin, your own life only comes first, is with regard to Gashmius, namely, physical survival in this world.  It does not seem that Rabbi Akiva meant that students be rejected by schools rather we should apply the rule of Zeh Klal Gadol B’Torah.

 

 

Chochmah B’Goyim Taamin

Chochmah B’Goyim Taamin (Eichah Rabba 2) Perhaps there are some solutions that we can find outside our community.  Youth at Risk and drug overdose has presented itself in mainstream America way before it hit our community. 

Last year I ran for Civil Court Judge, thanks to the voters in Boro Park and Kensington and my many supporters, with Siyata D’Shmaya I won the election.  To my surprise, I was assigned to Brooklyn Criminal Court.  On my first day on the bench, I was introduced to the judge who would be my mentor, Judge Craig Walker. 

In New York, from the age of 16, a person who gets arrested is arraigned and tried in Criminal Court.  Judge Walker championed for the Youth Part so that defendants from 16 to 24 years of age are separated from the older defendants.  This is because research has shown that the human brain stops developing at the age of 24.  I sat on the bench many days with Judge Walker and observed numerous defendants who had dropped out of school, suffered rejection, isolation and ultimately committed crimes.  (Note, the law has recently changed; beginning in 2018 defendants ages 16-17 will go to Family Court).  In court, all the children charged with crimes are entitled to legal counsel and if a child is ordered not to return to his school, an alternative school is located.

Judge Walker has recently been recognized by acting Brooklyn District Attorney, Eric Gonzalez for his successful efforts to provide support, rehabilitation, social services, educational degrees etc. for these youth at risk.  Judge Walker sets the youth up for success and applauds everyone who receives a certificate of achievement in his courtroom.  Our educators can learn from Judge Walker’s success in turning around the lives of many young men and women in Brooklyn.

BOCES is a public school alternative for children unable to sit through traditional classrooms. The Boards of Cooperative Educational Services (BOCES) was formed by the NYS legislature in 1948 and has created an amazing network of schools which teach through hands-on learning.  For example, children who are interested in hair design, construction or automobiles, will sit in classrooms designed as salons, constructions sites or auto repair shops. I actually visited the BOCES in Orange County and was amazed at its success in transforming children who failed in class to excellent students.  Could we create such learning environments for our children who cannot sit in class for so many hours?

Another option seen in the public school system is advanced classes for the students who are capable of a more challenging curriculum.  Rather than taking weaker students out of class, labeling them “learning disabled” and creating a feeling of low self esteem by continuous tutoring and resource rooms, take out the advanced children and keep “average” a standard that most students can meet without pain.  This would seem to comport with Chanoch L’Naar Al Pi Darko (Mishlei 22:6).

Sinas Chinam vs. Ahavas Chinam

The Gemara (Yoma 9b) states that the Second Bais Hamikdash was destroyed because of Sinas Chinam, Baseless Hatred, despite the fact that the people at that time were Talmidei Chachomim, observed Mitzvos and performed Maasim Tovim.  Thus, their failure Beyn Adom L’Chaveiro wreaked havoc on the Jewish nation, facilitated the Churban Bais Hamikdash and the golus that ensued. 

In Orot HaKodesh vol. III, Rav Avraham Isaac HaKohen Kook, states “If we were destroyed and the world with us, due to baseless hatred, then we shall rebuild ourselves, and the world with us, with baseless love - Ahavas Chinam”.  In the weeks that followed Malky’s Petirah, her parents have exhibited incredible strength in forgiving the many people who have contributed to Malky’s tragic saga.  Rather than cast blame they are investing incredible efforts in sharing Malky’s story, creating awareness and mobilizing the community to understand how rejecting our youth is tantamount to a life sentence or more accurately, the death penalty.

Malky’s parents understand that we must bring about change in the way we treat our children.  And just as the Constitution guarantees every American Citizen due process in judgment, so too, must all people of our community, father, mothers, sisters, brothers, aunts, uncles, cousins come together in unity, so that our children are judged fairly in school.  We must learn to accept that a child may be different, because that is the way Hashem created him, we need to allow creativity and teach our children Al Pi Darko to give them what is their right, namely, a Torah education without fear of rejection or shame.

Mothers and fathers need to be involved in the transmission of Torah values to their children.  We cannot rely on the system and relinquish our role as parents.  If my child was hurt by a teacher or felt wronged by his teacher, I explained that teachers are human beings and just like Moshe Rabbeinu made a mistake when he hit the rock instead of speaking to it (Chukas 19:1-22:1), teachers can also make mistakes. 

Our children need to feel unconditionally loved by their parents and by Hashem; and they in turn should be raised with the concept of VeAhavta Es Hashem Elokecha.  Our children should retain what we as parents teach them by example—Shema Bni Mussar Avicha v’al Titosh Toras Emecha

Children should be encouraged to discuss Ikrei Emunah and Yesodos of Yiddishkeit with their parents and be able to freely ask questions without fear of criticism.  Parents should be prepared to answer questions and if they don’t know an answer, to praise the child for asking a question which requires some research. 

There are good sources for information for parents, as an example Beyond a Reasonable Doubt, Feldheim Publishers, by Rabbi Shmuel Waldman and GPS Navigation for Your Soul, Artscroll Shaar Press, by Yaakov Shain and Avi Fishoff, are excellent books on Hashkafa, Emunah and Bitachon.

It is inaccurate to cast the full blame on the schools and yeshivas as they are following the lead set by us…the parents. 

A couple of weeks ago, I was speaking to some women in my bungalow colony about Malky’s tragic story and explaining that mothers and fathers who call schools to complain about other children and demand that they be expelled, must realize that they are violating the rules of Shmiras HaLoshon

One of the women, a fine person with good middos, explained how she recently felt compelled to complain about a boy is her son’s class and felt justified in doing so as she was told Chayecha Kodmin.  I found so many Chazzal on caring and sharing another’s pain, such as being Noseya B’Ol Im Chaveiro, Al Tadin es Chavercha ad Shetagiya L’Mkomo, VeAhavta Lreyacha Kamocha.  Yet it seems that society has broadened the exception and narrowed the rule by being more and more exclusive and rejecting more children leading to an increase in the OTD population.

From the Sefer Baal Shem Tov, Parshas Kedoshim, we learn that “… that every bad decree that is decreed on a person, is decreed by himself.”  The Baal Shem Tov explains, of course no one decrees bad for himself.  What happens is that a person is shown someone else behaving in a certain way and that particular bad behavior can be found in him as well.  What he thinks and says to do with the other person, is what will be done to him.  How we treat other children, is how our children will be treated.

Call to Action

Hayom Katzer V’Hamlacha Meruba….Lo Alecha HaMlacha L’Gmor (Avos 2:20, 21) Each and every one of us needs to start taking small steps to work on changing our mindset and saving our children.  As the Mishnah states, we need not be concerned that the task is too great for us to finish, and at the same time, we are not absolved from trying….

R’ Moshe Feinstein writes in his Sefer Shaylos V’Teshuvos that one is obligated to give one-tenth of his fortune to tzeddakah so too, one must give from his spiritual wealth one-tenth to those in need of spirituality.  Each of us needs to reach out to help a child in need – a kid at risk.

Each and every one of us can make a difference.  It is not about the “system” the “school” or the “Hanhala” rather it is about each and every one of us in our own exclusive leadership position.  Whether we are at the helm of our household, the leader of a Tehilim group, the director in a corporate or business setting, etc. – Hashem gives each of us the opportunity to lead.  What does leadership entail?  When Hashem chose Moshe Rabbeinu as the leader of Klal Yisroel, he was chosen for his compassion – leadership is about compassion.

The Medrash (Shmos Rabbah 2:2) relates that once when Moshe was shepherding Yisro’s flock a little sheep ran away.  This little sheep did not conform and follow along with the rest of the flock – just like the student who does not keep up with the rest of the class.  Moshe ran after the sheep until it came to a small pool of water and stopped to drink. 

Instead of punishing the sheep, Moshe said “I did not know you were running because you were thirsty.  You must be tired.”  If we would understand that most likely the student who cannot keep up with the class is not being purposefully deviant, but may be thirsty, may be needy.  This student may be suffering from an ailment, from sickness, or from a broken home.

The Medrash concludes with Moshe’s statement “If only I had known that you thirsted for water.  You must be exhausted from running.” Moshe did not punish or isolate the sheep; rather he put the little sheep on his shoulders and brought him back to the flock.  Moshe did not see a “rebellious” soul, rather a frightened being in need of immediate care and attention. 

It was at that moment, that Hashem chose Moshe to be the leader of His people.  Each and every one of us needs to tap into our leadership roles and do what we can to fulfill the mandate Hashem has given us to lead His children with compassion and bring them all back to Him…V’Shuvu Bonim L’Gvulam.  May Malky be a Meylitza Yosher for us all so that we merit the Geulah—- B’Derech Hatorah Neylech.

I wish to thank my Choshuv son in law, Shia Fink, and my daughters, Shaindy Fink, Leah Freier and Faigy Freier for their time, input and insight which helped me in writing this article.  I am very proud of them.

Rachel E. Freier known as Ruchie Freier by her friends is a newly elected Civil Court Judge assigned to Brooklyn Criminal Court.  She is from Boro Park and the proud mother and grandmother of a Chassidic family.  She is the first Chassidic woman elected to public office.  Ruchie is the founder of B’Derech, an organization created to assist Kids at Risk in the Chassidic Community and Director of Ezras Nashim, the first all womens’ volunteer EMS agency. She graduated from Touro College with her BA and earned her JD from Brooklyn Law School.



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1

 Aug 01, 2017 at 05:17 AM Boreparker26 Says:

As much as I try to appreciate these long idealistic speeches full of good intent and special messages plus about the great organizations that there are out there, the facts remain facts. My daughter was rejected, thrown out, rejected again by too many of our top reputation schools. No one was there to help, I went from organization to organization, from Rav to Rav. Kept on getting the same answers - other parents complained, teachers can't handle her lack of zitzfleish, her marks are not so great... She was rejected by various heimishe camps. She feels and she knows the rejection. Why? She had some issues with sitting through long classes (ADHD). She's a good tzniusdike girl with amazing middos and tons of talent - she just doesn't have the best grades. We worked with therapists, mechanchim and tutors. We spent thousands on outside help to ensure that she's able to function as a regular student. Every single conversation with the school was an uphill battle - as if they are doing us a favor by listening to what we have to say. When things got really bad at high school, we begged them - please do not throw her out, we don't want her to feel the rejection, we'll find her a new school but don't throw her out. She was thrown out by the principal the next day. She'll remember that for life. I'm sorry, these articles are nice, but what's going on out there is a lot worse than it sounds. Please don't defend our mosdos or talk about great organizations. It's hurtful to families like mine.

2

 Aug 01, 2017 at 06:47 AM lazy-boy Says:

Although I am certainly not the expert that Ruchie Freier is, I thought I would add my few words from my experience in dealing with children.

I found that there are 3 important factors in any kids' life: Home, School, friends.

Home, is how the parents treat the kid, how (if they do) understand his/her individual needs and how do they help the child with them and this includes a show of love too!

School is how the teachers relate to the child. There are some teachers who are misfits, some who are good and few that are excellent.

Friends are the child's peer group.

When a kid has problems and the parents are pushing him/her in one direction, but in reality the kid needs more understanding and maybe a different direction and it is not given by the parents, the kid can go OTD. and this is especially when the teachers give the kid problems and are compounded by the parent pushing the poor kid.

Then he loses his friends and is open to the chevra that inhabits the streets. That is very dangerous; but it is frequent.

UNDERSTAND who is your kid, and what HE/SHE needs and don't push to be what everyone else says he/she should be.

HaShem Ya'azor!

3

 Aug 01, 2017 at 07:27 AM inNY Says:

Splendid article, Thank you..

You write that Moshe Rabbeinu made a mistake when he hit the rock instead of speaking to, therefore teachers can also make mistakes, your comparison is true, but keep in mind Moshe Rabbeinu paid a hefty price for his mistake by not being the one to go to Eretz Yisroel, so too should teachers who make mistakes be punished to the highest that is.

4

 Aug 01, 2017 at 07:34 AM SadyaG Says:

Reply to #1  
Boreparker26 Says:

As much as I try to appreciate these long idealistic speeches full of good intent and special messages plus about the great organizations that there are out there, the facts remain facts. My daughter was rejected, thrown out, rejected again by too many of our top reputation schools. No one was there to help, I went from organization to organization, from Rav to Rav. Kept on getting the same answers - other parents complained, teachers can't handle her lack of zitzfleish, her marks are not so great... She was rejected by various heimishe camps. She feels and she knows the rejection. Why? She had some issues with sitting through long classes (ADHD). She's a good tzniusdike girl with amazing middos and tons of talent - she just doesn't have the best grades. We worked with therapists, mechanchim and tutors. We spent thousands on outside help to ensure that she's able to function as a regular student. Every single conversation with the school was an uphill battle - as if they are doing us a favor by listening to what we have to say. When things got really bad at high school, we begged them - please do not throw her out, we don't want her to feel the rejection, we'll find her a new school but don't throw her out. She was thrown out by the principal the next day. She'll remember that for life. I'm sorry, these articles are nice, but what's going on out there is a lot worse than it sounds. Please don't defend our mosdos or talk about great organizations. It's hurtful to families like mine.

I agree with you (boreparker26), it got to a point where Middos and eidelkite have taken a back seat, now days it's all about marks, so there is really nothing parents can do to stand up, you get knocked down.

Ruchi I highly admire your strength, but there are only a handful of people in our community who can be as courageous as you are, the masses are left in the hands of organized school, or as I call it organized religion.

5

 Aug 01, 2017 at 09:26 AM Anonymous Says:

Unfortunately, there's a lot of talk but no action on this sore subject. The ones in charge of the schools have the last say. Even if you belong to a kehilla, the higher ups aren't allowed to get involved. From my experience it's either buckle under, at your child's expense, or leave. As much as is spoken about school and home should work as a team, reality has proven different. It's the school against the parents with the unfortunate child ping ponging in between. There's no one out there to help as a mediator. I'm talking from experience and am very hurt. We need action and not articles. Until they don't get hurt personally nothing will change. Sad truth!!

6

 Aug 01, 2017 at 09:47 AM Robert Says:

Reply to #1  
Boreparker26 Says:

As much as I try to appreciate these long idealistic speeches full of good intent and special messages plus about the great organizations that there are out there, the facts remain facts. My daughter was rejected, thrown out, rejected again by too many of our top reputation schools. No one was there to help, I went from organization to organization, from Rav to Rav. Kept on getting the same answers - other parents complained, teachers can't handle her lack of zitzfleish, her marks are not so great... She was rejected by various heimishe camps. She feels and she knows the rejection. Why? She had some issues with sitting through long classes (ADHD). She's a good tzniusdike girl with amazing middos and tons of talent - she just doesn't have the best grades. We worked with therapists, mechanchim and tutors. We spent thousands on outside help to ensure that she's able to function as a regular student. Every single conversation with the school was an uphill battle - as if they are doing us a favor by listening to what we have to say. When things got really bad at high school, we begged them - please do not throw her out, we don't want her to feel the rejection, we'll find her a new school but don't throw her out. She was thrown out by the principal the next day. She'll remember that for life. I'm sorry, these articles are nice, but what's going on out there is a lot worse than it sounds. Please don't defend our mosdos or talk about great organizations. It's hurtful to families like mine.

well said

we had a similar problem -
our daughter had mild ADD and none of the religious high schools in nj would take her for high school. we asked for a one class accomodation

bottom line she went to public school for high school ( out of district so we paid tuition anyway)
they gave her the extra help and accomodations she needed and by senior year was in no special classes-
she went to israel for a year to catch up and is now in college- still not easy

this was not our plan but we did what we felt was best for her
in my heart i know her elementary school - with their high school could have accomodated her but-
they had their reasons- i hope they sleep well

with God;s help my daughter will thrive despite them both religiously and secularly.

as i see it- she has more derech eretz and respect than most of the children and teachers- she has a true inner light and i suspect God wants that light to shine elsewhere

bottom line in my opinion we have to take care of our children as best we can and rely on no one but ourselves as parents together with God Almighty.

if the "system" is helpful thats wonderful and we need more
if they are arrogant then we will reap what we sow/

7

 Aug 01, 2017 at 09:49 AM SRRLD Says:

The schools put too much stress on grades . This is not part of our history except for recent history. All Children-both boys and girls- are expected to sit long hours and excel from early years. Is this fair to expect from every child. ? Soon enough the labels are attached and hard to shake off, inevitably causing the child who is having a hard time, to find his love and respect elsewhere. Time for introspection and overhaul.

8

 Aug 01, 2017 at 10:03 AM Goldie Avtzon Says:

I read your article with great interest. The timing of Tisha B’Av, when we mourn the destruction of the Bais Hamikdash is the perfect time to address the churban occurring in our own midst.

As someone who does not live within a “heimish” community, much of what you wrote was revealing and, indeed, an issue that must be addressed.

Which brings me to my next point. I don’t live in a remote community for financial nor social reasons. I live here because I was sent here by the Lubavitcher Rebbe, זי"ע . I was, therefore, quite surprised to see the omission of the Rebbe and the mammoth organization he built in your line up of Kiruv pioneers and organizations. Whether you’re a Chabad admirer or otherwise the Rebbes “kiruv” initiatives (way before it was popular) cannot he ignored. To do so is no different than rejecting a girl because of “what others” will say.

Would be happy to hear from the author, either privately (goldie@chabadhk.org) or publicly.

On our side of the world Tisha Bav is over. Wishing everyone who is still fasting an easy fast.

9

 Aug 01, 2017 at 10:24 AM Chabadnik in Teaneck Says:

She is so on point!
We all just want to be in, and protect our "clubs". Regardless of what we preach, religious level, or even religion, unfortunately. It has become a culture club, more than a religion, and it's high time for our leadership to actually "walk the walk" and not just preach the gospel, they do not model. There are those rare exceptions, who are the real heroes, but unfortunately, they're few and far between. Time to clean house, and save religious Judaism from itself. Actually, "Don't do unto others, what is yourself hated", and stop prioritizing all the other, bullsht commentary.
Have an easy fast, and may we finally merit the geulah hashleima, now!

11

 Aug 01, 2017 at 10:25 AM FBF37 Says:

"....she explained that we cannot encourage questions from students and that our Derech is too keep the students in a box without allowing for creativity of thought".

12

 Aug 01, 2017 at 10:34 AM Midwest Says:

Shame on our Jewish schools and educators. My heart is broken for this family and others in the same situation. Jews should take care of Jews. We should withdraw our support for schools that don't honor our children. Each child is to be valued and we must find the strengths that each child has. Teaching tolerance should come before teaching other subjects. I wonder how these "educators" sleep at night. If we can't raise our children to be menschen, nothing else matters!

13

 Aug 01, 2017 at 10:35 AM hernoor Says:

It is imperative that schools stop focusing so much on irrelevant educational material that is very hard for 50% of the student body to memorize and which serves no purpose in life other than to force students to memorize material for hours, and whether they got good test marks or not, sooner or later this irrelevant knowledge will be forgotten by students in any case. Some students will forget after they finish school and some will forget the material as soon as they finish the test. Educators keep in mind, ONLY education that kids use in real life, reading, writing , basic math, etc. will be remembered. Stop forcing nonsense down kids' throat. Stop trying to force them to remember hundreds of meforshim and force them to memorize a ridiculous amount of secular information . It serves no purpose besides for getting those students who have a hard time memorizing, all angry about school. Instead, build up the students characters, giving them the chance to excel in science clubs, drama, music. THIS is education. Not everyone is a square you can neatly put them into the box. Children come in all shapes and sizes. Same for bucharim, we need to remember the Yissaschar and Zevulun partnership. Hashem created everyone differently and we can't expect everyone to sit for hours and hours learning. And even those bucharim who have pushed themselves in their younger years in yeshiva sometimes push themselves to the max because of the pres sure to be the best boy. By the time they are 19,20, many feel burnt. Some even get depressed because the pressure was too much. The "system" of education needs to be relaxed to the standard that all students are comfortable reaching their level of success. And more more needs to be stressed on developing. mosdos and derech eretz and personal responsibility for the choices they make in life, as well as instilling students with an appreciation of Yiddishkeit. Parents, from their part, need to respect that the average mosod is not equipped, and it is not rational to expect them to be equipped, to service the needs of those students who need professional help or are not reasonably disciplined by parents. The school cannot give the chinuch and discipline that is required of parents , nor offer professional help should the child need it (which btw, is relied on too heavily today as many parents who should, but don't want to, deal with kids tantrums because it's easier to pop pills). And the average school usually working on a deficit, or at most on a shoestring budget, usually does not have the means to provide students with severe learning disabilities (which is actually the wrong terminology used to describe these children as in most cases they just process information differently than average students) the help they deserve.

14

 Aug 01, 2017 at 10:40 AM triumphinwhitehouse Says:

my experience with "organizations" without exception has been very negative, they either make you feel like an outcast or worse like they are doing you a favor by them doing their job and this is if you are lucky to have them get back to you after countless messages. the last thing we need is more organizations we have enough UJA, OU, AGUDA, Oorah and the lavish paying one Met Council on Jewish POVERTY (where the CEO makes more than Trump) and literally DOZENS of others but when has a problem they are all like the government, useless.

15

 Aug 01, 2017 at 11:01 AM Agreed! Says:

Reply to #8  
Goldie Avtzon Says:

I read your article with great interest. The timing of Tisha B’Av, when we mourn the destruction of the Bais Hamikdash is the perfect time to address the churban occurring in our own midst.

As someone who does not live within a “heimish” community, much of what you wrote was revealing and, indeed, an issue that must be addressed.

Which brings me to my next point. I don’t live in a remote community for financial nor social reasons. I live here because I was sent here by the Lubavitcher Rebbe, זי"ע . I was, therefore, quite surprised to see the omission of the Rebbe and the mammoth organization he built in your line up of Kiruv pioneers and organizations. Whether you’re a Chabad admirer or otherwise the Rebbes “kiruv” initiatives (way before it was popular) cannot he ignored. To do so is no different than rejecting a girl because of “what others” will say.

Would be happy to hear from the author, either privately (goldie@chabadhk.org) or publicly.

On our side of the world Tisha Bav is over. Wishing everyone who is still fasting an easy fast.

It's blatantly absent

16

 Aug 01, 2017 at 11:10 AM Sourbal Says:

Very articulated article, but nothing will change, I predict 1000's of teens will leave the fold within the next 10 years, it has become pretty much disgusting to be called a hasidic Jew now days which is based how big your hat is, or what color shirt you wear, it's pretty interesting that in the time of the Baal Shem no one dressed like we dress today. I understand the concept why we need uniform, so we keep in the community, but the dress code and many other nonsense have taken front seat Vs. real emunah, ehrlichkeit, menchlichikte, and our teens sense the falsehood, and they despise it.

17

 Aug 01, 2017 at 11:11 AM Anonymous Says:

Too many sleepless nights, too much pain, and very damaging fallout. All coming from people who are supposed to be molding our generation. It's time to call all of them out for what they have and continue to do. Even on Tisha B'Av. Mesivta Ohr Yisrael in Marine Park known as Zuckers and run by Refoel Bernstein, an abusive man, is one such institution. They have lost their way and routinely kick our kids around on a daily basis. Too many have been thrown out -- even in the middle of the year! And those who stay are simply unhappy. No Jewish education here! Skip this school!

18

 Aug 01, 2017 at 11:16 AM Mother with a different experience Says:

Not 15 minutes ago I was talking to my son, a "reject" from a "better school."

I understood the problems "Avi" was causing in school but I was lucky that some other teachers told me the truth. Avi was bullied by other boys, left with the smoking gun in his hand when the others fled, & slapped by the teachers. Eventually, we pulled him out but he had nowhere to go. It was 3 weeks before my son's wedding & Avi was in 8th grade.

I spent the next years building my son's self esteem. At 13 we sent him out of town, but my husband visited even for Shabbosim, & we were on the Menhal's speed dial. Gradually, with therapy, lots of support & davenning every day, Avi got through the entire system.

He just told me he has been offered a tremendous promotion based on the incredible work this ADD/dyslexic son has done, making millions for his hi-tech firm. He is married to a wonderful girl from a "top" family, has beautiful kids and a 2 year old who is just like his Abba... in every way!

The system IS set up to fail the Malky's & Avi's, but parents can fight back. We did. Perhaps we were lucky, but Avi is our biggest nachas; he succeeded against all odds. I just told him so.

19

 Aug 01, 2017 at 11:20 AM brooklynjew Says:

As someone who studied the issue I will say this..
Special schools who except kids who need help or placing kids in different schools then their siblings does not work!
The issues that children have is mainly shame, embarrassment, being treated different, that is why it is IMPORTANT to keep them in regular schools despite of how they are doing in terms of marks and grades..
Besides, unlike the secular world, the first question by shidduchim is where did he or she learn, do I need to explain any further?

It is vitally important that a school which excepts a child must except all other siblings!
Shame is what ultimately destroyes these beautiful souls, first comes the low self esteem etc.. And then all which follows..

Expelling children because of cell phones is a different issue..

20

 Aug 01, 2017 at 11:35 AM hernoor Says:

Reply to #16  
Sourbal Says:

Very articulated article, but nothing will change, I predict 1000's of teens will leave the fold within the next 10 years, it has become pretty much disgusting to be called a hasidic Jew now days which is based how big your hat is, or what color shirt you wear, it's pretty interesting that in the time of the Baal Shem no one dressed like we dress today. I understand the concept why we need uniform, so we keep in the community, but the dress code and many other nonsense have taken front seat Vs. real emunah, ehrlichkeit, menchlichikte, and our teens sense the falsehood, and they despise it.

Unfortunately, many will indeed leave the fold but that is a personal choice, no one can blame anybody. That's what bechira means. No one is forced to leave. There are many frum brands of Yiddishkeit if one doesn't fit into one mold, they can choose another. If one doesn't like the Chassidish way, they can settle for a not Chassidish community, or a not so Chassidish, only a little Chassiddish, community. There's no excuse for going OTD . It's just the yetzer hora making excuses.

Having said that, I agree with you how ridiculous it is the extent of pressure that is being applied to how many layers and types of Chassidish clothing one is forced to wear to be accepted. My son's rebbe told him to wear a particular dress that my family AND my son are embarrassed about despite most of the boys of his Chassidas wear it as well ( many being forced to like my son was). That really lowered the Rabbi's esteem in my eyes. Whoever wants should dress that way. You can't force people to do that. I didn't want to forbid my son from dressing that way as I thought it is not a good idea to teach my son to go against authority for this. And I still think so. But it is unfair for leaders to abuse their authority.

21

 Aug 01, 2017 at 11:37 AM ShatzMatz Says:

Although the article is very well written and tugs at the heartstrings, it is of no practical value. I challenge Judge Freier to run a school and do a better job. It's tough enough as it is. It takes some nerve asking the school administrators (who owe us nothing, our tuition doesn't cover half their cost) to become the problem solvers of all our problems. I happen to see the facts from the other side. You tell me that a school principal has to keep a student in class who has a boyfriend on the side, or who refuses to adhere to the dress code. Which one of us would want our daughters exposed to that kind of stuff. I was involved in a case of a chassidishe 16 year old girl who confided to her best friend that she "went all the way" with her boyfriend the past shabbos. The "best friend" betrayed the trust and the whole class became aware of it. The entire conversation in the class became x-rated. Mothers were justifiably horrified, and that girl had to go immediately (she had been given several chances before). Ask any school administrator how many times they have given a troubled girl a break, based on assurances by the girl and her parents, and then have it backfire in th

22

 Aug 01, 2017 at 11:47 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #2  
lazy-boy Says:

Although I am certainly not the expert that Ruchie Freier is, I thought I would add my few words from my experience in dealing with children.

I found that there are 3 important factors in any kids' life: Home, School, friends.

Home, is how the parents treat the kid, how (if they do) understand his/her individual needs and how do they help the child with them and this includes a show of love too!

School is how the teachers relate to the child. There are some teachers who are misfits, some who are good and few that are excellent.

Friends are the child's peer group.

When a kid has problems and the parents are pushing him/her in one direction, but in reality the kid needs more understanding and maybe a different direction and it is not given by the parents, the kid can go OTD. and this is especially when the teachers give the kid problems and are compounded by the parent pushing the poor kid.

Then he loses his friends and is open to the chevra that inhabits the streets. That is very dangerous; but it is frequent.

UNDERSTAND who is your kid, and what HE/SHE needs and don't push to be what everyone else says he/she should be.

HaShem Ya'azor!

Where is she finding those friends? I'm sure they were rejected themselves and now they have their own "group" because we all want to belong.
Please don't judge the parents until you have walked in their own shoes. They are going through hell and sometimes they are blindsided by the enormity of the challenge because of the myrid of responsibilities placed on our families today that most families did not have to contend with 30 years ago (ie larger families, parnossah, housing..et)
As a psychologist from Lakewood so eloquently stated in an article I read many years ago children leave because they don't feel part of something. Sorry, but schools still bear that responsibility. I unfortunately am going through this right now with my academically challenged daughter and I hate hearing "but this is not the place for your daughter, it'll be worse if she stays"...gimme a break so out of school is better? and to hang out with all the other girls and boys thrown out is better? and the sad part is that the principals truly believe what they are saying!!!!!!!
Also, children see how the principals and teachers act, they are their model for frumkeit not only their parents.

23

 Aug 01, 2017 at 11:50 AM Ina Says:

Reply to #18  
Mother with a different experience Says:

Not 15 minutes ago I was talking to my son, a "reject" from a "better school."

I understood the problems "Avi" was causing in school but I was lucky that some other teachers told me the truth. Avi was bullied by other boys, left with the smoking gun in his hand when the others fled, & slapped by the teachers. Eventually, we pulled him out but he had nowhere to go. It was 3 weeks before my son's wedding & Avi was in 8th grade.

I spent the next years building my son's self esteem. At 13 we sent him out of town, but my husband visited even for Shabbosim, & we were on the Menhal's speed dial. Gradually, with therapy, lots of support & davenning every day, Avi got through the entire system.

He just told me he has been offered a tremendous promotion based on the incredible work this ADD/dyslexic son has done, making millions for his hi-tech firm. He is married to a wonderful girl from a "top" family, has beautiful kids and a 2 year old who is just like his Abba... in every way!

The system IS set up to fail the Malky's & Avi's, but parents can fight back. We did. Perhaps we were lucky, but Avi is our biggest nachas; he succeeded against all odds. I just told him so.

You are very lucky and deserve to be proud! But, I sense all this happened some years ago. Today, when you find yourself in this situation, all doors are closed. There is nowhere to go. And I agree with the previous post, thousands will be leaving the fold within the next 20 years. The fallout will be unbearable!

24

 Aug 01, 2017 at 11:51 AM SadyaG Says:

Reply to #21  
ShatzMatz Says:

Although the article is very well written and tugs at the heartstrings, it is of no practical value. I challenge Judge Freier to run a school and do a better job. It's tough enough as it is. It takes some nerve asking the school administrators (who owe us nothing, our tuition doesn't cover half their cost) to become the problem solvers of all our problems. I happen to see the facts from the other side. You tell me that a school principal has to keep a student in class who has a boyfriend on the side, or who refuses to adhere to the dress code. Which one of us would want our daughters exposed to that kind of stuff. I was involved in a case of a chassidishe 16 year old girl who confided to her best friend that she "went all the way" with her boyfriend the past shabbos. The "best friend" betrayed the trust and the whole class became aware of it. The entire conversation in the class became x-rated. Mothers were justifiably horrified, and that girl had to go immediately (she had been given several chances before). Ask any school administrator how many times they have given a troubled girl a break, based on assurances by the girl and her parents, and then have it backfire in th

You're talking completely utter nonsense, the argument over here, is not about girls who run off with BF's, or vise verse, we are talking about good girls who have zero issues, Call Rabbi Ginsburg from Gan Yisroel he will tell you how many girls from his school every semester are rejected into high schools by other schools in BP, you know why?? because of their marks nothing else.

25

 Aug 01, 2017 at 11:55 AM Ina Says:

Reply to #21  
ShatzMatz Says:

Although the article is very well written and tugs at the heartstrings, it is of no practical value. I challenge Judge Freier to run a school and do a better job. It's tough enough as it is. It takes some nerve asking the school administrators (who owe us nothing, our tuition doesn't cover half their cost) to become the problem solvers of all our problems. I happen to see the facts from the other side. You tell me that a school principal has to keep a student in class who has a boyfriend on the side, or who refuses to adhere to the dress code. Which one of us would want our daughters exposed to that kind of stuff. I was involved in a case of a chassidishe 16 year old girl who confided to her best friend that she "went all the way" with her boyfriend the past shabbos. The "best friend" betrayed the trust and the whole class became aware of it. The entire conversation in the class became x-rated. Mothers were justifiably horrified, and that girl had to go immediately (she had been given several chances before). Ask any school administrator how many times they have given a troubled girl a break, based on assurances by the girl and her parents, and then have it backfire in th

Shame on you! I am glad you don't run any school. We are focusing here on children who belong in mainstream classes with their friends but aren't being accepted or worse, being thrown out because of learning disabilities which bears on their scholastic ability. Let's stay on target!

26

 Aug 01, 2017 at 12:03 PM AbeG Says:

Someone once called me from the Org. Boneh Olam to solicit donations, I told the person on the phone if you assure me that your org. will follow through when the child needs to get into a school, and you make sure that he or she will be accepted then i'll donate, if you can't guarantee me that, then don't call me anymore.

IMHO if we start doing that, maybe someone will wake up and do something.

27

 Aug 01, 2017 at 12:05 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #21  
ShatzMatz Says:

Although the article is very well written and tugs at the heartstrings, it is of no practical value. I challenge Judge Freier to run a school and do a better job. It's tough enough as it is. It takes some nerve asking the school administrators (who owe us nothing, our tuition doesn't cover half their cost) to become the problem solvers of all our problems. I happen to see the facts from the other side. You tell me that a school principal has to keep a student in class who has a boyfriend on the side, or who refuses to adhere to the dress code. Which one of us would want our daughters exposed to that kind of stuff. I was involved in a case of a chassidishe 16 year old girl who confided to her best friend that she "went all the way" with her boyfriend the past shabbos. The "best friend" betrayed the trust and the whole class became aware of it. The entire conversation in the class became x-rated. Mothers were justifiably horrified, and that girl had to go immediately (she had been given several chances before). Ask any school administrator how many times they have given a troubled girl a break, based on assurances by the girl and her parents, and then have it backfire in th

So maybe parents or mechanchim should have a frank discussion about human relations that hashem created. It's not something dirty like the Catholics view. Let's talk about kedushah vs. taava vs. human needs vs self respect vs veneral diseases. Is is better to find out about these things after you get married and run off to strip clubs, hookers, partner swapping which is happening more than you care to admit even with the people who "look" frum and not only the "short skirt" crowd.
Please don't be so naive to think that our children don't know this stuff. What they don't know is how to handle real life challenges. And if you tell me this is the family's responsibilities then why is there sex ed in public school when these kids are exposed to such matters while watching regular TV.
Raboissay, we are facing 21st century challenges but still teaching like it's the 1950's.

28

 Aug 01, 2017 at 12:16 PM Pops Says:

There have been many good points made. I would add that we as a community also need to educate/raise our children to have ahavas yisroel. If they have a friend, neighbor or class mate that has been marginalized by the system, we need to reach out to them. Parents should invite such children over for a play dates, and kids should be encouraged to be friends with them. Kids must be taught to show love for every jew. Maybe then, these kids will feel more like an integral part of the community. I noticed when my kids were growing up that often the more "frum" kids or the kids from the "choshuveh" families were often very snobbish and cliquish. I think in a suttle way that kids see these kids as the "system", when they are marginalized by these kids, they feel themselves to be less of a part of the "system"

29

 Aug 01, 2017 at 12:20 PM brooklynjew Says:

Reply to #21  
ShatzMatz Says:

Although the article is very well written and tugs at the heartstrings, it is of no practical value. I challenge Judge Freier to run a school and do a better job. It's tough enough as it is. It takes some nerve asking the school administrators (who owe us nothing, our tuition doesn't cover half their cost) to become the problem solvers of all our problems. I happen to see the facts from the other side. You tell me that a school principal has to keep a student in class who has a boyfriend on the side, or who refuses to adhere to the dress code. Which one of us would want our daughters exposed to that kind of stuff. I was involved in a case of a chassidishe 16 year old girl who confided to her best friend that she "went all the way" with her boyfriend the past shabbos. The "best friend" betrayed the trust and the whole class became aware of it. The entire conversation in the class became x-rated. Mothers were justifiably horrified, and that girl had to go immediately (she had been given several chances before). Ask any school administrator how many times they have given a troubled girl a break, based on assurances by the girl and her parents, and then have it backfire in th

People are constantly confusing the two..

Marks, grades, marks, grades..
Children should never be thrown out for their marks or grades!
Cell phones and other negative influences is a different story.. Obviously it has to be dealt with the otmost sensitivity..

Every school must take in a certain percentage of children who are not up to par academicaly! It's a chiyuv! And they should be held responsible if they fail to do so..

Sending children to special schools with a special curriculum does not work, nobody wants to be seen as different or weak..

Teachers and principals should never trained to evaluate each students test differently and mark it differently so the student is never embarrassed..

Calling out a student to the resource room in front of the entire class is also one the things that breaks a child into pieces from which they can never recover (even if they put on a good show of it doesn't bother them) ..

I have friends who learned zero in all their school/yeshiva years but today they have kids and grandchildren beautiful families.. Why? Cuz the system didn't expell them no matter what..

The problem is that we adopted the policy of 'no child left behind' not through better education but through throwing a workload of homework at the students and then holding the student responsible...
This is criminal, and unfair!
I'm reading comment after comment, it's sad to see how people are barking up the wrong tree..

30

 Aug 01, 2017 at 12:31 PM Sammy Says:

What I find very troubling and hurtful, is that board members of many schools are the ones who make the decision who to accept and whom to reject, they are clueless people, they are absolutely not in chinch, all they do is sit on boards for Kavod, they have zero training in education, nor do they really care, schools nowadays have become a business like any other for profit business.

31

 Aug 01, 2017 at 12:39 PM hernoor Says:

Reply to #27  
Anonymous Says:

So maybe parents or mechanchim should have a frank discussion about human relations that hashem created. It's not something dirty like the Catholics view. Let's talk about kedushah vs. taava vs. human needs vs self respect vs veneral diseases. Is is better to find out about these things after you get married and run off to strip clubs, hookers, partner swapping which is happening more than you care to admit even with the people who "look" frum and not only the "short skirt" crowd.
Please don't be so naive to think that our children don't know this stuff. What they don't know is how to handle real life challenges. And if you tell me this is the family's responsibilities then why is there sex ed in public school when these kids are exposed to such matters while watching regular TV.
Raboissay, we are facing 21st century challenges but still teaching like it's the 1950's.

Are you nuts?! Don't you know that by exposing kids to this knowledge it becomes more accessible like by the goyim?! Hashem yerachem! Hashem please save us from fools in our community!

32

 Aug 01, 2017 at 12:39 PM Ina Says:

Reply to #30  
Sammy Says:

What I find very troubling and hurtful, is that board members of many schools are the ones who make the decision who to accept and whom to reject, they are clueless people, they are absolutely not in chinch, all they do is sit on boards for Kavod, they have zero training in education, nor do they really care, schools nowadays have become a business like any other for profit business.

"schools nowadays have become a business like any other for profit business."

Yes, they have. And, this is our fault. Schools need to be by communities for their children. And, where are AWOL rabbonim? Is it not their responsibility to sort all this out?! I know it is!

33

 Aug 01, 2017 at 12:43 PM Itchi Says:

We need to start contacting all our Gov politicians and local elected leaders (not self made askunin) who bring back funds to many of our schools, that they must contact all school leaders that the honeymoon is over, it's either all schools implement a system that every child will be in a school comes the day of opening, or there is no more Gov money coming to you.

I challenge Dov Hikind to take on this task, but of cource he won't do it cause he needs the votes from the powerful institutions, for the same reason he backed off from the child molestaion issue, cause of pressure, and he needs votes, but if enough parents will start to ring off the hook his office and many other local politicians change will come.

34

 Aug 01, 2017 at 12:56 PM triumphinwhitehouse Says:

I can tell you that yeshivas only concern is comformity, if you wear a feather in your hat you will be called to the menahel and told you are a soldier and soldiers follow orders, except sailors on leave as we know. too many restrictions, too long days, too many rabbis who got jobs for being a son-in-law or other mishpacha oh and of course the only people who get respect are the "askanim" millionaires many of whom did NOT earn money fairly (why else would you get sanctioned by Medicaid?) who are like the parnes of the shtetl, the shtetl aint coming back and the shtetl have more problems than not.

35

 Aug 01, 2017 at 01:27 PM Just sayin Says:

Reply to #8  
Goldie Avtzon Says:

I read your article with great interest. The timing of Tisha B’Av, when we mourn the destruction of the Bais Hamikdash is the perfect time to address the churban occurring in our own midst.

As someone who does not live within a “heimish” community, much of what you wrote was revealing and, indeed, an issue that must be addressed.

Which brings me to my next point. I don’t live in a remote community for financial nor social reasons. I live here because I was sent here by the Lubavitcher Rebbe, זי"ע . I was, therefore, quite surprised to see the omission of the Rebbe and the mammoth organization he built in your line up of Kiruv pioneers and organizations. Whether you’re a Chabad admirer or otherwise the Rebbes “kiruv” initiatives (way before it was popular) cannot he ignored. To do so is no different than rejecting a girl because of “what others” will say.

Would be happy to hear from the author, either privately (goldie@chabadhk.org) or publicly.

On our side of the world Tisha Bav is over. Wishing everyone who is still fasting an easy fast.

Your missing the entire point of the article. It's not about the Rabonim. It's about the children! Regardless of denomination! If the purpose of the article would be to highlight the achievements of outreach you'd be right.

36

 Aug 01, 2017 at 01:29 PM shaina22 Says:

As we approach the fast of Av known as Tisha Bav we mourn the loss of our holy temple. We must also feel sad for all our brothers and sisters who are lost in the secular world. We must daven for them and show Ahavas Chinam. Sinas Chinam destroyed our holy temple Ahavas Chinam will bring the Geula. Please take a moment during Shemonah Esrei to say this tefilla by Hashevenu for someone who left Judaism or is far away from it. In this zecus may we all be worthy of the Geulah.
יהי רצון מלפניך ה' אלקינו ואלקי אבותינו שתחתר חתירה מתחת כסא כבודך להחזיר בתשובה שלמה לכל פושעי ישראל ובכללם תחזיר
( insert name)
כי ימינך ה' פשוטה לקבל שבים
Please share to as many people as possible

37

 Aug 01, 2017 at 01:36 PM Chaim Says:

This topic is a real "Himel Geshrie". This requires a weekly Citifield gathering, until Klal Yisroel gets the message once and for all, that's "Lo Zee Haderech".

38

 Aug 01, 2017 at 01:36 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #31  
hernoor Says:

Are you nuts?! Don't you know that by exposing kids to this knowledge it becomes more accessible like by the goyim?! Hashem yerachem! Hashem please save us from fools in our community!

Educate them for life not for conformity. Don't be so naive. Heronoor, there are many frum (will not enumerate) who are doing disgusting acts because of a lack of education. It's there wether you like it or not! Your the fool because the torah talks about it!

39

 Aug 01, 2017 at 01:41 PM Beautiful Says:

Reply to #18  
Mother with a different experience Says:

Not 15 minutes ago I was talking to my son, a "reject" from a "better school."

I understood the problems "Avi" was causing in school but I was lucky that some other teachers told me the truth. Avi was bullied by other boys, left with the smoking gun in his hand when the others fled, & slapped by the teachers. Eventually, we pulled him out but he had nowhere to go. It was 3 weeks before my son's wedding & Avi was in 8th grade.

I spent the next years building my son's self esteem. At 13 we sent him out of town, but my husband visited even for Shabbosim, & we were on the Menhal's speed dial. Gradually, with therapy, lots of support & davenning every day, Avi got through the entire system.

He just told me he has been offered a tremendous promotion based on the incredible work this ADD/dyslexic son has done, making millions for his hi-tech firm. He is married to a wonderful girl from a "top" family, has beautiful kids and a 2 year old who is just like his Abba... in every way!

The system IS set up to fail the Malky's & Avi's, but parents can fight back. We did. Perhaps we were lucky, but Avi is our biggest nachas; he succeeded against all odds. I just told him so.

I cry, hearing the uphill battle, honorable and decent parents and families face, fighting the supposedly, but not really, system. I so hope, that the day of reckoning will come to our so-called leadership, sooner than later.

40

 Aug 01, 2017 at 01:45 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

Unfortunately, there's a lot of talk but no action on this sore subject. The ones in charge of the schools have the last say. Even if you belong to a kehilla, the higher ups aren't allowed to get involved. From my experience it's either buckle under, at your child's expense, or leave. As much as is spoken about school and home should work as a team, reality has proven different. It's the school against the parents with the unfortunate child ping ponging in between. There's no one out there to help as a mediator. I'm talking from experience and am very hurt. We need action and not articles. Until they don't get hurt personally nothing will change. Sad truth!!

The sad truth of the matter is that our chaider and for that matter schools have become a business of a private person/people or to a big mosod where the Rebbe is boss. Parents have platform. They dont need to report to anyone, theyre their own bosses. Parents have very little or nothing to say as per chinuch of their child, quality of teachers&&.
The principals& Hanhala comprises of egoistic people, unwilling to even hear u out. As someone mentioned on this forum, gone r the days when middos& erlichkyt was a must. If u hide under ur cloak of falsity yet get gr8 grades and have zitzfleish, a teacher is not intrsted or rather incapable, lemmme be don lchaf zchus, in seeing the true colors of the girl.
Girl are being bullied by teachers thst shldnt have been there kn the first place. Uneducated, boaring teachers sitting on the bench over 25 yrs when they still bored the students away ages ago. But everything is fine and dandy cuz parents are tuned into themselves & nobody complains cuz nobody listens. The people that need to read these forums dont so nothing will change. So were all stuck in all ways imaginable.

41

 Aug 01, 2017 at 02:07 PM SRRLD Says:

Many good comments but No one has magic answers .....but one thing all will agree , it cannot be expected of a teacher to reach out and even function in overcrowded classes. First priority to finance: Smaller classes and more teachers.

42

 Aug 01, 2017 at 02:09 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #21  
ShatzMatz Says:

Although the article is very well written and tugs at the heartstrings, it is of no practical value. I challenge Judge Freier to run a school and do a better job. It's tough enough as it is. It takes some nerve asking the school administrators (who owe us nothing, our tuition doesn't cover half their cost) to become the problem solvers of all our problems. I happen to see the facts from the other side. You tell me that a school principal has to keep a student in class who has a boyfriend on the side, or who refuses to adhere to the dress code. Which one of us would want our daughters exposed to that kind of stuff. I was involved in a case of a chassidishe 16 year old girl who confided to her best friend that she "went all the way" with her boyfriend the past shabbos. The "best friend" betrayed the trust and the whole class became aware of it. The entire conversation in the class became x-rated. Mothers were justifiably horrified, and that girl had to go immediately (she had been given several chances before). Ask any school administrator how many times they have given a troubled girl a break, based on assurances by the girl and her parents, and then have it backfire in th

Ur taking it to the other extreme. Of course they shldnt keep sucha girl and she shldnt of been able to hide her sad behavior to begin with. But to say that our tuition doesnt even cover the costs thats y we shld shut our mouths? No! We entrusted our precious kids to the school and NEED to open our mouths when seeing actions that destroy our kids. They may not rule over our souls because theyre the authority. They "may" make mistakes & made many. They have to be held accountable for harrassing kids that are not up to par w academics or even conduct. Some are smarter and some can sit thru and some cant. We need to judge our kids as a single unit. U cant start a witch hunt and ultimately try to kill a girl that fails her grades or is not sampling behavior. (By mo means anything spiritually).
If ur the bright chosen principal, look away. Dont c everything. Of course there has to b law and order but not all kids r created equal. I too cldnt sit still some 30 yrs ago and wasnt ostracized. Today we need perfect sitting pupils w perfect marks or else they degrade punish them terribly. I saw too much in my lifetime w many kids around. We need principals w compassion. Principals that the kids shldnt despise. It doesnt help them grow just throws them back and brings on real chutzpah.

43

 Aug 01, 2017 at 02:14 PM Anonymous Says:

Been there. I had a son who did not learn well at all. He is a learning disability and I could not afford to pay for the school. Only by the open Hand of Hashem; he is a fine Jew, father, husband, and worker. Even though he was rejected I worked with him and he work hard on himself. I got somebody who taught him how to read, he write but his hand writing is horrible, he speaks fluently in 4 languages and works very hard 14 hours a day 6 days a week. How he is frum is only because constant davening and Hashem guiding him day by day. No school has the right to shun our children. We can't afford the lost

44

 Aug 01, 2017 at 02:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #27  
Anonymous Says:

So maybe parents or mechanchim should have a frank discussion about human relations that hashem created. It's not something dirty like the Catholics view. Let's talk about kedushah vs. taava vs. human needs vs self respect vs veneral diseases. Is is better to find out about these things after you get married and run off to strip clubs, hookers, partner swapping which is happening more than you care to admit even with the people who "look" frum and not only the "short skirt" crowd.
Please don't be so naive to think that our children don't know this stuff. What they don't know is how to handle real life challenges. And if you tell me this is the family's responsibilities then why is there sex ed in public school when these kids are exposed to such matters while watching regular TV.
Raboissay, we are facing 21st century challenges but still teaching like it's the 1950's.

You are totally off the loop. I hope ur kids dont enter any of our schools or they b sent off with music. I defntly hold authority responsible for demanding from kids that is impossible for them and then being kicked out. The shame will stay forever. But u r way over ur head and pls find ur place not within our erlicha communities. Thank you.

45

 Aug 01, 2017 at 02:21 PM hernoor Says:

Reply to #38  
Anonymous Says:

Educate them for life not for conformity. Don't be so naive. Heronoor, there are many frum (will not enumerate) who are doing disgusting acts because of a lack of education. It's there wether you like it or not! Your the fool because the torah talks about it!

People have always done and do disgusting things even with "sex education". There's no reason to "educate" our children in these matters. The only education they should be getting UN these matters is from learning the Torah which causes no harm.

46

 Aug 01, 2017 at 02:22 PM Esther Says:

Reply to #18  
Mother with a different experience Says:

Not 15 minutes ago I was talking to my son, a "reject" from a "better school."

I understood the problems "Avi" was causing in school but I was lucky that some other teachers told me the truth. Avi was bullied by other boys, left with the smoking gun in his hand when the others fled, & slapped by the teachers. Eventually, we pulled him out but he had nowhere to go. It was 3 weeks before my son's wedding & Avi was in 8th grade.

I spent the next years building my son's self esteem. At 13 we sent him out of town, but my husband visited even for Shabbosim, & we were on the Menhal's speed dial. Gradually, with therapy, lots of support & davenning every day, Avi got through the entire system.

He just told me he has been offered a tremendous promotion based on the incredible work this ADD/dyslexic son has done, making millions for his hi-tech firm. He is married to a wonderful girl from a "top" family, has beautiful kids and a 2 year old who is just like his Abba... in every way!

The system IS set up to fail the Malky's & Avi's, but parents can fight back. We did. Perhaps we were lucky, but Avi is our biggest nachas; he succeeded against all odds. I just told him so.

I'm sorry but this idea of "top families" and everything associated with this phrase and others like it are a major part of the problem.

47

 Aug 01, 2017 at 02:24 PM Chani Says:

I just came across the following news story from today, I suggest the Kleins or anyone that feels that their child had a bad reverse effect because of some bad school action to sue, these schools won't understand any other language.

ROSELAND, N.J. (AP) — The family of a 12-year-old New Jersey girl who killed herself says it will sue her school district for not stepping in to address the problem of cyberbullying.

48

 Aug 01, 2017 at 02:33 PM BurichBoy Says:

I have printed Ruchi's article, and I'm making 100's of copies on a CD from the interview Mr Klein gave, I'm going to mail it along to all schools in Brooklyn, I suggest everyone who reads this to do the same, we need to flood all schools with the message that we are not happy and we protest, this is a civil way to do it.

49

 Aug 01, 2017 at 02:44 PM StamHuman Says:

I'm tired of seeing all these Rabbis and Rebbitzens bemoaning the existence of OTD kids as 'the loss of so many children'. I just want to grab them by the shoulders, look them in the eye, and say:

We are not lost.
We are still here.
We lost you.

Before we ever had you, we lost you.

We lost you to a book, you lost us to every other book.
We lost you to war for one country, you lost us to every other island and continent.
We lost you to ignorance, you lost us to the sum total of the remainder of human knowledge.

Why?

You mourn yourselves as victims of genocide when your own holy book gloats over your own genocide of the seven nations of Canaan, and pray for a day when you will do the same to Amalek.
You mourn the loss of connection to your Father in heaven when fathers among you have abandoned your own children.
You pray for the return of a temple where the blind, ugly, and disabled cannot enter.
We left, but we are not lost.

50

 Aug 01, 2017 at 02:45 PM A Bais Yaakov Mother Says:

As a mother whose six out of seven kids did not fit into that Box! I have a lot of experience and a lot to say.

We as mothers know, there are academically inclined children, and creatively inclined children.

The problem is the people who open and run schools are surely Well Meaning but they are the ones who were the academically inclined children. Therefore they don't have any understanding of the needs of the Creative Active children.

Parents have forgotten that Yes school is a Business. And We the parents are the customers. The business is supposed to satisfy the customers. Customers don't conform to the business.

I have personally witnessed over the years how parents are completely intimidated to speak up and advocate for their children. Some are paranoid that if they speak up too much the school will kick out their children.

And not only that! It suddenly became the Norm for schools to control the parents! They have to Grant Permission to keep your child home from school!
HOW DID THAT HAPPEN!!!!

Parents inadvertently have given up the rights! Parents are contorting and completely submitting themselves to the control of the principals.
That is NOT true Yiddishkeit.

Just like a bully will continue bullying if the victim shows fear and intimidation. Once the victim stands up for himself the bully will back off.

I am deeply grateful to Hashem for giving me the insight and courage to advocate for my children and Never giving up my rights as a parent. Not that it was always easy, but there are effective ways to handle things.

Always give respect to principals and teachers yet firmly demanded for your respect as well. And you know what? That works.
This is what I would claim to principles:
We all acknowledge that Hashem has created different types of children. The subdued, the academic, the creative, the active. To Deny the needs and existence of the creative active ones is equivalent to Denying Hashems work.....!
There was never a disagreement to this!

Until someone actually opens up a school geared to the creative active child, a parent has to be creative to figure out what the child needs in order to survive the system. Whether it's letting the kids have breaks and go out of class for a few minutes to let off some energy. Giving the child errands to make them feel good and alleviating the restlessness. To quietly doodle, or having a squish ball to squeeze to expend energy...
Sometimes vitamins or medicine is necessary to calm a childs system in order to function in school and at home as well.

A child Must know that Marks is not everything!
The only thing in a person's hand is their effort.
Success is completely in Hashems hands! And this applies to learning Torah as well! Parents must pump this into their children.

Children must know that Hashem knows what's in their hearts, and values them and appreciates their efforts!

This is what the schools must Acknowledge Accept and Understand!!!

And it's up to Us parents to Promote Establish and Demand this!

51

 Aug 01, 2017 at 02:49 PM I'm #18 Says:

Reply to #23  
Ina Says:

You are very lucky and deserve to be proud! But, I sense all this happened some years ago. Today, when you find yourself in this situation, all doors are closed. There is nowhere to go. And I agree with the previous post, thousands will be leaving the fold within the next 20 years. The fallout will be unbearable!

You are right... it was about 15 years ago, probably when things were coming to a public head. But I maintain that things can be reversed and although it's far from an easy road, if we could do it, anyone can. We aren't special, believe me, & Avi isn't either.

I would add one thing...the most crucial aspect of all these issues is the kids' friends. I suppose looking back it was a good thing that he didn't have any, so he was a home body. BH today he is full of self-confidence, he is popular and respected in his shul, very close with all his siblings & his inlaws family, and is a truly happy & positive person.

Not surprisingly, he is the only boy from that 8th grade class who is frum today.

52

 Aug 01, 2017 at 03:00 PM Anonymous Says:

As a parent of teenagers with spiritual challenges I too can blame the system and the "system" does favor the mitzuyanim. But I'm a rebbi so I get to see the other side of the story. I personally can feel the Klien's pain. However, as I read Malky's story, one would think her problems began as a teenager or when .the high school didn't accept her. This may be true, however in many cases the problem begins in nursery with the parents. I have seen countless times parents push their child into school and they aren't ready. They fight tooth and nail not to leave their child back. Child psychologists cost a fortune. so they don't take them until its almost to late. Many parents are just overwhelmed with parnasa, their families etc, to focus on this child. In addition, in a class of 25 different personalities and family dynamics its very easy for an average child to fall through the cracks until they have to take a test or farher for high school. Second, it's easy to say " fix the system" and I agree there needs much upgrading to our system, but with no system you have hefker and then you have kul alam giver - the strongest wins. May we merit to see Moshiach bmihara biyamanu.

53

 Aug 01, 2017 at 03:03 PM Ina Says:

The Agudah runs under the Moetzes. Perhaps every school needs to be under the auspices of a Moetzes. No school can be run as an individual or family's personal fiefdom. They all need to have oversight in everything they do. And, when anything comes up between the school and it's parent body, the Moetzes must be the final arbiter. The Agudah functions in this manner and our schools, all of them, should to. It wasn't too long ago, that the Satmar Rav made all decisions in his school. I believe this is what needs to happen, the sooner the better for us all.

54

 Aug 01, 2017 at 03:08 PM jewishobserver Says:

Judge Freier and prominent educated people like her might be able to have a positive impact, however, I am skeptical. Those who run Yeshivas and Bais Yaakovs cannot function on ideology alone. They need to deal with competition. They need to deal with all kinds of parents, students, teachers, and the ever changing society (both frum and general) we function in. Is it realistic to think that everyone's needs can be met? The public school system has a legal mandate to deal with every child, they have resources.Our educational (?) institutions do not.
My experience with dealing with bais yaakovs is that those who run them do not personify the heights of professionalism, intelligence or compassion (although a few do).The 'soup du jour' hashkafa is more in line with what that principal told Judge Freier "we cannot encourage questions from students and that our Derech is too keep the students in a box without allowing for creativity of thought". If that reflects current policy with schools and the parent body, it is bound to exclude many children who are (b'h) not in the box.
Finally, Judge Freier quotes Oros HaKodesh. Can you tell me which BP school or teacher has one

55

 Aug 01, 2017 at 03:21 PM triumphinwhitehouse Says:

Reply to #33  
Itchi Says:

We need to start contacting all our Gov politicians and local elected leaders (not self made askunin) who bring back funds to many of our schools, that they must contact all school leaders that the honeymoon is over, it's either all schools implement a system that every child will be in a school comes the day of opening, or there is no more Gov money coming to you.

I challenge Dov Hikind to take on this task, but of cource he won't do it cause he needs the votes from the powerful institutions, for the same reason he backed off from the child molestaion issue, cause of pressure, and he needs votes, but if enough parents will start to ring off the hook his office and many other local politicians change will come.

do you have his number in Israel or in the Catskills?

57

 Aug 01, 2017 at 03:37 PM jkayaker Says:

Reply to #29  
brooklynjew Says:

People are constantly confusing the two..

Marks, grades, marks, grades..
Children should never be thrown out for their marks or grades!
Cell phones and other negative influences is a different story.. Obviously it has to be dealt with the otmost sensitivity..

Every school must take in a certain percentage of children who are not up to par academicaly! It's a chiyuv! And they should be held responsible if they fail to do so..

Sending children to special schools with a special curriculum does not work, nobody wants to be seen as different or weak..

Teachers and principals should never trained to evaluate each students test differently and mark it differently so the student is never embarrassed..

Calling out a student to the resource room in front of the entire class is also one the things that breaks a child into pieces from which they can never recover (even if they put on a good show of it doesn't bother them) ..

I have friends who learned zero in all their school/yeshiva years but today they have kids and grandchildren beautiful families.. Why? Cuz the system didn't expell them no matter what..

The problem is that we adopted the policy of 'no child left behind' not through better education but through throwing a workload of homework at the students and then holding the student responsible...
This is criminal, and unfair!
I'm reading comment after comment, it's sad to see how people are barking up the wrong tree..

To 29# Very well said I agree a 100%

58

 Aug 01, 2017 at 03:38 PM answers Says:

I have the answer!
How in the world do we as parents expect a rebbe, morah, or English teacher to have 25 children in one class for 2-5 hours a day and meet the needs of all them?!
Most parents cannot spend a whole shabbos meal once a week with all their kids. Dismiss them from the shabbos table or the kids just go to play.
I want to see ONE asken, ONE parents try and teach a class of 25 year olds for one week. But Don't just teach. Teach, inspire, look each kid in the eye, show compassion, never get upset etc. That is the easy part. The challenge for a teacher? Incompetent administrators for the most part, and parents that are nebach under pressure to have kids that fit in. They can't and don't want to hear that their yankele or chanele have an issue and the teacher is told by the incompetent administrator - you can do it.
Solution?
I challenge Mrs. Fier and all concerned parents and askanim to nip the problem in it's heel. Every single classroom MUST have two aides that can tend to the needs of each child. Teachers MUST communicate with every single parent once a month. Principals are a major problem and I don't have a solution.
Thats right. Teachers are vastly underpaid

59

 Aug 01, 2017 at 03:39 PM answers Says:

are highly qualified and underappreciated

60

 Aug 01, 2017 at 03:46 PM answers Says:

Continued.
The answer is Money! Thats right.......money!!!!
How can a teacher, even the best of them focus on so many kids all day?!
Therapists work one on one.
Yet, the rebbe or morah is expected to be a teacher, mom or dad, therapist, mediator at recess, and fifty other things all day long.
You want to make a difference?
DEMAND higher teacher to student ratio!
I challenge one parent or askan to try the impossible job of teaching so many for so long all alone.
We have a solution but it won't happen. You know why?
Bc ed. consultants give fancy data and theories and don't give practical solutions, and ppl don't get kavod for giving gelt to teachers.
Some might say what does this have to do w Malky a"h?
I am positive that Malkies moros and teachers were stressed and maybe bittter. i am in no way excusing their behavior at all. However, the teachers need support and chizuk as well.

61

 Aug 01, 2017 at 03:51 PM Sorry that I voted for her Says:

Classic example of Bait and Switch!
In her lead caption, the Honorable Judge represents that she is presenting this (multi paragraph) piece based on her experience on the bench. Yet upon review of her written opinion, only ONE paragraph makes mention of her experience on the Bench . And even this one paragraph does not refer to her experience as a Judge; but rather as a trainee.
Ms. Freier makes reference to, draws on, and relys on Judaic sources.Thus, in this realm, she is less of an authority that a 9th grade mesivta Bachur.

When it comes to espousing an opinion on a hashkafic issue, that is the domain of our Torah leaders.

In short, Ms. Frier, leave the Torah to the Rabanim, and stick to the law which is your forte. There are enough problems that frum yidden have with the criminal and civil courts. I don't need a mussar shiur by a vaibel on inyanai chinuch.

A Frum Lawer on Court Street.

62

 Aug 01, 2017 at 03:54 PM Systemic Issue Says:

Amen, amen and amen to the article.

Then I read the bottom of it, and this sentence:
I wish to thank my Choshuv son in law....

and I groaned.

Choshuv!

Herein lies the crux of the problem! The systemic issue that is plaguing the community is...elitism, or as I would put it, Choshuv'ism.

It would suffice to write devoted son in law, dear son in law or any term of endearment, but why the classism?

Its ironic that this important essay was ended this way. The crux of this problem in Chinuch is that everyone wants to be Choshuv, hence the overprotective mothers and schools.

Not that this article/essay is not brilliant, true, honest and courageous. However, its post script reminds me that Systemic Classism, to honour, to be a 'top' person is pervasive, even with the very people working hard to changing the status quo.

I hope this article is reprinted and distributed to every person in Chinuch; it is well written and encompassing, and should be mandatory reading....but for goodness sake, omit the elitist shtick. It enables this destructive caste style-system to flourish. Let's cut it out.

63

 Aug 01, 2017 at 04:15 PM Anonymous Says:

The only answer is Home Schooling and Public Schools. Many Rebetezen's went to public Schoo'ls and turned out much better than today's Beth Yakov girls. Most of our Grandmothers did not go to any School and there was no suicide, no Off The Derech or the so called "Shiduch Crisis"

64

 Aug 01, 2017 at 04:42 PM FBF37 Says:

Reply to #30  
Sammy Says:

What I find very troubling and hurtful, is that board members of many schools are the ones who make the decision who to accept and whom to reject, they are clueless people, they are absolutely not in chinch, all they do is sit on boards for Kavod, they have zero training in education, nor do they really care, schools nowadays have become a business like any other for profit business.

"schools nowadays have become a business like any other for profit business." That's it. This is the main problem/root of the issue. It's a business. When it's a business your decision making will be different...

I have no problem of someone opening up a private school for profit. As long there are frum "community" schools that are open to all!! Since that does not exist we have the issues we are seeing today.

65

 Aug 01, 2017 at 04:45 PM Anonymous Says:

Very interesting how everyone is against the system and they all trying to get in the system. If i believe it's rotten (it Is) I would stay a mile away. There is alternate Education than Beith Yakov.

66

 Aug 01, 2017 at 04:46 PM Anonymous Says:

Something that has not been mention here; First we have to lower our standard of living and support school and have departments to help all kids not just the stars.
People want the money and their children to go to star schools but if you hav ADD or AHD kids nobody want to help. We don't need new cars every 2 years but we need that not one kid feels rejected or ends up on drugs. We are too much in the secular word of things including dress style and gashmius. I don't know why anybody who is not working needs a smart phone. Why do women walk the street push a pram while her ear is attach to a phone. She is out with her kids pay attention. When the cross the street the main thing is the phone not the kids. I watch the men walking the streets and almost all are attach to a phone why. I am a businessman but never walk on the street with my phone to my ear. We need to spend less on things and more to give to schools to make all kids fit in. If you think I am wrong think again. We need to give all to help the community.
I have a new car because my last one was 12 years old. I don't have it for the next 3 weeks because I gave it to a Rosh Yeshiva so he could have a good car to go on vac

67

 Aug 01, 2017 at 04:54 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #60  
answers Says:

Continued.
The answer is Money! Thats right.......money!!!!
How can a teacher, even the best of them focus on so many kids all day?!
Therapists work one on one.
Yet, the rebbe or morah is expected to be a teacher, mom or dad, therapist, mediator at recess, and fifty other things all day long.
You want to make a difference?
DEMAND higher teacher to student ratio!
I challenge one parent or askan to try the impossible job of teaching so many for so long all alone.
We have a solution but it won't happen. You know why?
Bc ed. consultants give fancy data and theories and don't give practical solutions, and ppl don't get kavod for giving gelt to teachers.
Some might say what does this have to do w Malky a"h?
I am positive that Malkies moros and teachers were stressed and maybe bittter. i am in no way excusing their behavior at all. However, the teachers need support and chizuk as well.

You are right. The big problem is MONEY. Teachers are earning way too much money. In Eretz Yisroel they earn 50% less than in the USA. A Kolel Guy earns 60-80% less than a Woman Teacher in Brooklyn an they not asking for "Support and Chizuk" and they are not "stressed and Bitter" Maybe its time to stop hiring teachers who look at their job for "MONEY' and start hiring the ones who look at this an opportunity to serve Hashem. There are thousand of Kolel Yunge Leit who earns a fraction of a Teacher and they are not bitter, stressed and begging for chizuk. They Doing this Loshem Shomayim.

68

 Aug 01, 2017 at 05:02 PM FBF37 Says:

Reply to #61  
Sorry that I voted for her Says:

Classic example of Bait and Switch!
In her lead caption, the Honorable Judge represents that she is presenting this (multi paragraph) piece based on her experience on the bench. Yet upon review of her written opinion, only ONE paragraph makes mention of her experience on the Bench . And even this one paragraph does not refer to her experience as a Judge; but rather as a trainee.
Ms. Freier makes reference to, draws on, and relys on Judaic sources.Thus, in this realm, she is less of an authority that a 9th grade mesivta Bachur.

When it comes to espousing an opinion on a hashkafic issue, that is the domain of our Torah leaders.

In short, Ms. Frier, leave the Torah to the Rabanim, and stick to the law which is your forte. There are enough problems that frum yidden have with the criminal and civil courts. I don't need a mussar shiur by a vaibel on inyanai chinuch.

A Frum Lawer on Court Street.

You are not a lawyer. Nice try. If you have not noticed that are leadership are utter failures. So no I do not need to hear from them. Lets hear another perspective.

69

 Aug 01, 2017 at 05:04 PM Real Answer Says:

Reply to #60  
answers Says:

Continued.
The answer is Money! Thats right.......money!!!!
How can a teacher, even the best of them focus on so many kids all day?!
Therapists work one on one.
Yet, the rebbe or morah is expected to be a teacher, mom or dad, therapist, mediator at recess, and fifty other things all day long.
You want to make a difference?
DEMAND higher teacher to student ratio!
I challenge one parent or askan to try the impossible job of teaching so many for so long all alone.
We have a solution but it won't happen. You know why?
Bc ed. consultants give fancy data and theories and don't give practical solutions, and ppl don't get kavod for giving gelt to teachers.
Some might say what does this have to do w Malky a"h?
I am positive that Malkies moros and teachers were stressed and maybe bittter. i am in no way excusing their behavior at all. However, the teachers need support and chizuk as well.

"MONEY" , teachers are stressed, bitter, need support and chizuk" Wow. Maybe you just pointed out the Real Problem. I was in a Hospital where Nuns (Lohavdil) were helping the Nurses and they looked Happy, Relaxed, Sweet and supportive not "Bitter, Stressed and need in Chizuk. Just maybe the Real Problem is not the Principals etc.

70

 Aug 01, 2017 at 05:17 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #60  
answers Says:

Continued.
The answer is Money! Thats right.......money!!!!
How can a teacher, even the best of them focus on so many kids all day?!
Therapists work one on one.
Yet, the rebbe or morah is expected to be a teacher, mom or dad, therapist, mediator at recess, and fifty other things all day long.
You want to make a difference?
DEMAND higher teacher to student ratio!
I challenge one parent or askan to try the impossible job of teaching so many for so long all alone.
We have a solution but it won't happen. You know why?
Bc ed. consultants give fancy data and theories and don't give practical solutions, and ppl don't get kavod for giving gelt to teachers.
Some might say what does this have to do w Malky a"h?
I am positive that Malkies moros and teachers were stressed and maybe bittter. i am in no way excusing their behavior at all. However, the teachers need support and chizuk as well.

"I am positive that Malkies moros and teachers were stressed and maybe bitter" Aha. Lets blame the Principles, Rabbonim the Board of Directors and the whole world instead of figuring out what is happening in the Classrooms all day every day with "Stressed and Bitter Moros. For a start Single girls who are over 20 are almost always are Stressed and Bitter for a reason we all know has nothing to do with the kids or money. NO MORE SINGLE TEACHERS. Married Woman in their 20's with Keyne Hore many kids and Husband in Kolel are almost always Bitter and Angry for luck of sleep and money etc . So who should teach our girls? There are b"h many ladies in their 50's and 60's with nice parnoseh, stable husband and lots of life experience.

71

 Aug 01, 2017 at 05:18 PM Anonymous Says:

#49 please take your atheist agenda of blaspheming the Torah elsewhere. Go to an atheist site where it will be appreciated. We believe in the Torah not in the garbage you are spouting as being superior to the Torah Chas veshalom....

72

 Aug 01, 2017 at 05:36 PM answers Says:

To all those nitpicking my comments:
It is impossible for even the best teacher to meet the needs of 25 kids with different personalities, needs, IQ's, family situations, emotions, all by themselves. Not having a higher teacher to student ratio is akin to producing faulty tires and then opening organizations and askanim to deal with the crashes and injured people. Let's open hospitals, guard rails etc.! come the screams from the askanim.
No. Go to the tire plant and spend the money on fixing the fault. That is not so shtary (askanim also like kavod and power, ask a rebbe or two) so it does not get the true attention it needs. So to, we don't go to schools to work on the issue. Get your tuches in schools and demand better teachers and more importantly, better administrators. It takes money! It takes time! But it's more geshmak to blasta system with no viable solution. Yes even teachers can be stressed and we the parents MUST support the underpaid teacher (unlike the untrue and obnoxious comment #67 and 69).
You have a choice. Come up w a solution and work hard or become angry and disenfranchised and lose out.
As the great Bob Grant would say, your influence counts - uuuuuse it!

73

 Aug 01, 2017 at 06:03 PM Esther Says:

Reply to #62  
Systemic Issue Says:

Amen, amen and amen to the article.

Then I read the bottom of it, and this sentence:
I wish to thank my Choshuv son in law....

and I groaned.

Choshuv!

Herein lies the crux of the problem! The systemic issue that is plaguing the community is...elitism, or as I would put it, Choshuv'ism.

It would suffice to write devoted son in law, dear son in law or any term of endearment, but why the classism?

Its ironic that this important essay was ended this way. The crux of this problem in Chinuch is that everyone wants to be Choshuv, hence the overprotective mothers and schools.

Not that this article/essay is not brilliant, true, honest and courageous. However, its post script reminds me that Systemic Classism, to honour, to be a 'top' person is pervasive, even with the very people working hard to changing the status quo.

I hope this article is reprinted and distributed to every person in Chinuch; it is well written and encompassing, and should be mandatory reading....but for goodness sake, omit the elitist shtick. It enables this destructive caste style-system to flourish. Let's cut it out.

I was thinking the exact same thing. When our society truly understands that EVERY JEW is choishev,every Yid is Hashem's child, a lot of thee problems will be minimized.

74

 Aug 01, 2017 at 06:05 PM georgeg Says:

Reply to #67  
Anonymous Says:

You are right. The big problem is MONEY. Teachers are earning way too much money. In Eretz Yisroel they earn 50% less than in the USA. A Kolel Guy earns 60-80% less than a Woman Teacher in Brooklyn an they not asking for "Support and Chizuk" and they are not "stressed and Bitter" Maybe its time to stop hiring teachers who look at their job for "MONEY' and start hiring the ones who look at this an opportunity to serve Hashem. There are thousand of Kolel Yunge Leit who earns a fraction of a Teacher and they are not bitter, stressed and begging for chizuk. They Doing this Loshem Shomayim.

I don`t see any sources for your numbers. But in general terms, one cannot compare incomes from different countries, because (among other things) one needs to compare expenses. My cousin`s widow in the U.S. taught (what may be called) full time in a Jewish school, and her entire salary went to pay for the tuition for her two children in the same school. I hear in Israel the State pays for the school. In fact, my other cousin in Israel lives in a Hareidi community where the state paid for building the synagogue, school etc.

``Kolel Guys``and ``Woman Teacher in Brooklyn`. Maybe the `Woman Teacher`is married to (and supports) the ``Kolel Guy

75

 Aug 01, 2017 at 06:10 PM real answer Says:

Reply to #72  
answers Says:

To all those nitpicking my comments:
It is impossible for even the best teacher to meet the needs of 25 kids with different personalities, needs, IQ's, family situations, emotions, all by themselves. Not having a higher teacher to student ratio is akin to producing faulty tires and then opening organizations and askanim to deal with the crashes and injured people. Let's open hospitals, guard rails etc.! come the screams from the askanim.
No. Go to the tire plant and spend the money on fixing the fault. That is not so shtary (askanim also like kavod and power, ask a rebbe or two) so it does not get the true attention it needs. So to, we don't go to schools to work on the issue. Get your tuches in schools and demand better teachers and more importantly, better administrators. It takes money! It takes time! But it's more geshmak to blasta system with no viable solution. Yes even teachers can be stressed and we the parents MUST support the underpaid teacher (unlike the untrue and obnoxious comment #67 and 69).
You have a choice. Come up w a solution and work hard or become angry and disenfranchised and lose out.
As the great Bob Grant would say, your influence counts - uuuuuse it!

"We the parents MUST support the underpaid teachers"
1/ We the parents in Kolel or working hard at 40-50.000/year with B"H 8-10 kids
should pay More Tuition? Its Not funny at all.
2/ Teachers are overpaid not underpaid. Ask any Kolel Yungeleit how much he
earns? If you do it Leshem Shomayim (Tens of thousands do it in Kolel) Money is
not the main reason.
3/ Who is "Bob Grant" Is he the one where you are getting your Hashkofeh?
4/ I sure hope your "stressed and bitter " teachers are not "Bob Grant
readers/followers.

76

 Aug 01, 2017 at 06:12 PM Esther Says:

Reply to #67  
Anonymous Says:

You are right. The big problem is MONEY. Teachers are earning way too much money. In Eretz Yisroel they earn 50% less than in the USA. A Kolel Guy earns 60-80% less than a Woman Teacher in Brooklyn an they not asking for "Support and Chizuk" and they are not "stressed and Bitter" Maybe its time to stop hiring teachers who look at their job for "MONEY' and start hiring the ones who look at this an opportunity to serve Hashem. There are thousand of Kolel Yunge Leit who earns a fraction of a Teacher and they are not bitter, stressed and begging for chizuk. They Doing this Loshem Shomayim.

As much as I love teaching and as much as I cherish the kedusha of it,I can't work for free. There have been times when I needed to go on Tomhcei Shabbos after our salaries were cut and for years I got my clothes from a gemach. Hashem made me a human being,just like you, and these things tend to wear a person down.

77

 Aug 01, 2017 at 06:15 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #70  
Anonymous Says:

"I am positive that Malkies moros and teachers were stressed and maybe bitter" Aha. Lets blame the Principles, Rabbonim the Board of Directors and the whole world instead of figuring out what is happening in the Classrooms all day every day with "Stressed and Bitter Moros. For a start Single girls who are over 20 are almost always are Stressed and Bitter for a reason we all know has nothing to do with the kids or money. NO MORE SINGLE TEACHERS. Married Woman in their 20's with Keyne Hore many kids and Husband in Kolel are almost always Bitter and Angry for luck of sleep and money etc . So who should teach our girls? There are b"h many ladies in their 50's and 60's with nice parnoseh, stable husband and lots of life experience.

Dont be so dissmissive of single girls. The last few decent gr8 teachers my girls had happnd to be single and in their 20s. Makes no diffrence. U can b the smily 22 yr old and the bitterr 52 yr old w no talent. Nothing is a given. Talent and middos is a must and can rest at any age. Very poor judgement

78

 Aug 01, 2017 at 06:15 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #26  
AbeG Says:

Someone once called me from the Org. Boneh Olam to solicit donations, I told the person on the phone if you assure me that your org. will follow through when the child needs to get into a school, and you make sure that he or she will be accepted then i'll donate, if you can't guarantee me that, then don't call me anymore.

IMHO if we start doing that, maybe someone will wake up and do something.

Sorry, but your comment is extremely foolish. Boneh Olam has absolutely nothing to do with schools or yeshivos. There is no one there who has any special connections, nor would Boneh Olam have a drop of clout to advocate for a child to gain admission. If you are a miser, you will keep your money for yourself. If you are generous, you will give.

79

 Aug 01, 2017 at 06:19 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #33  
Itchi Says:

We need to start contacting all our Gov politicians and local elected leaders (not self made askunin) who bring back funds to many of our schools, that they must contact all school leaders that the honeymoon is over, it's either all schools implement a system that every child will be in a school comes the day of opening, or there is no more Gov money coming to you.

I challenge Dov Hikind to take on this task, but of cource he won't do it cause he needs the votes from the powerful institutions, for the same reason he backed off from the child molestaion issue, cause of pressure, and he needs votes, but if enough parents will start to ring off the hook his office and many other local politicians change will come.

Your fund of knowledge is severely limited. You know nothing about government funding. And you know even less about Dov Hikind. It's not about votes at all.

80

 Aug 01, 2017 at 06:22 PM JewishMom Says:

Y is comment #49 still on? Y do u give a disgruntled OTD person the bully pulpit to vent on our people? VIN shld know better and not allow it. Pls remove #49 as it is despicable!

81

 Aug 01, 2017 at 06:36 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #13  
hernoor Says:

It is imperative that schools stop focusing so much on irrelevant educational material that is very hard for 50% of the student body to memorize and which serves no purpose in life other than to force students to memorize material for hours, and whether they got good test marks or not, sooner or later this irrelevant knowledge will be forgotten by students in any case. Some students will forget after they finish school and some will forget the material as soon as they finish the test. Educators keep in mind, ONLY education that kids use in real life, reading, writing , basic math, etc. will be remembered. Stop forcing nonsense down kids' throat. Stop trying to force them to remember hundreds of meforshim and force them to memorize a ridiculous amount of secular information . It serves no purpose besides for getting those students who have a hard time memorizing, all angry about school. Instead, build up the students characters, giving them the chance to excel in science clubs, drama, music. THIS is education. Not everyone is a square you can neatly put them into the box. Children come in all shapes and sizes. Same for bucharim, we need to remember the Yissaschar and Zevulun partnership. Hashem created everyone differently and we can't expect everyone to sit for hours and hours learning. And even those bucharim who have pushed themselves in their younger years in yeshiva sometimes push themselves to the max because of the pres sure to be the best boy. By the time they are 19,20, many feel burnt. Some even get depressed because the pressure was too much. The "system" of education needs to be relaxed to the standard that all students are comfortable reaching their level of success. And more more needs to be stressed on developing. mosdos and derech eretz and personal responsibility for the choices they make in life, as well as instilling students with an appreciation of Yiddishkeit. Parents, from their part, need to respect that the average mosod is not equipped, and it is not rational to expect them to be equipped, to service the needs of those students who need professional help or are not reasonably disciplined by parents. The school cannot give the chinuch and discipline that is required of parents , nor offer professional help should the child need it (which btw, is relied on too heavily today as many parents who should, but don't want to, deal with kids tantrums because it's easier to pop pills). And the average school usually working on a deficit, or at most on a shoestring budget, usually does not have the means to provide students with severe learning disabilities (which is actually the wrong terminology used to describe these children as in most cases they just process information differently than average students) the help they deserve.

What a mixture of some really valid points with some that are borderline crazy.

Your idea of being a "bad influence" is not Torah consistent. Someone with issues, whether a smartphone, short dress, etc. are all matters of chinuch, and should be addressed. The dismissive pattern of throwing these kids out is not acceptable. Most often, this label is misapplied, and, oops, the child is dead.

Exposure to negative stimuli happens everywhere. It is not more toxic if it is a fellow student. Pushing that kid to the street is not the answer. Better or more chinuch is.

You blame Malky for choosing drugs. That is imbecilic, and I don't see how you can articulate everything so well, but issue such a statement. She was not thrown into the street because she was connected to that life. She found drugs after the school placed her on the street. Your attitude is plain chutzpah. What do you know about drugs? About adolescents?

82

 Aug 01, 2017 at 06:40 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #52  
Anonymous Says:

As a parent of teenagers with spiritual challenges I too can blame the system and the "system" does favor the mitzuyanim. But I'm a rebbi so I get to see the other side of the story. I personally can feel the Klien's pain. However, as I read Malky's story, one would think her problems began as a teenager or when .the high school didn't accept her. This may be true, however in many cases the problem begins in nursery with the parents. I have seen countless times parents push their child into school and they aren't ready. They fight tooth and nail not to leave their child back. Child psychologists cost a fortune. so they don't take them until its almost to late. Many parents are just overwhelmed with parnasa, their families etc, to focus on this child. In addition, in a class of 25 different personalities and family dynamics its very easy for an average child to fall through the cracks until they have to take a test or farher for high school. Second, it's easy to say " fix the system" and I agree there needs much upgrading to our system, but with no system you have hefker and then you have kul alam giver - the strongest wins. May we merit to see Moshiach bmihara biyamanu.

Rebbi Anonymous:

You missed the point completely. If you value midas ho'emes, then you must acknowledge that the yeshivos and schools have a huge problem that is built into the model of chinuch. What has been happening for years is that these discussions become a volleyball game, with parents blaming yeshivos, and yeshivos blaming parents. In this instance, while both sides have merit, you nailed the true problem in quoting "kol de'olim gvar". The yeshivos will always win. The system is badly broken, and needs to be restructured completely. Many of the comments here point directly to severe deficiencies. The mechanchim that read this will continue their status quo. That's the problem.

83

 Aug 01, 2017 at 06:45 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #58  
answers Says:

I have the answer!
How in the world do we as parents expect a rebbe, morah, or English teacher to have 25 children in one class for 2-5 hours a day and meet the needs of all them?!
Most parents cannot spend a whole shabbos meal once a week with all their kids. Dismiss them from the shabbos table or the kids just go to play.
I want to see ONE asken, ONE parents try and teach a class of 25 year olds for one week. But Don't just teach. Teach, inspire, look each kid in the eye, show compassion, never get upset etc. That is the easy part. The challenge for a teacher? Incompetent administrators for the most part, and parents that are nebach under pressure to have kids that fit in. They can't and don't want to hear that their yankele or chanele have an issue and the teacher is told by the incompetent administrator - you can do it.
Solution?
I challenge Mrs. Fier and all concerned parents and askanim to nip the problem in it's heel. Every single classroom MUST have two aides that can tend to the needs of each child. Teachers MUST communicate with every single parent once a month. Principals are a major problem and I don't have a solution.
Thats right. Teachers are vastly underpaid

You used up several comments on this thread to post a lot of nonsense.

Schools are not funded to place assistants in every classroom. Teachers are underpaid. But are they entering the employment of the yeshiva with training and qualification? If not, teaching is an entry level job, and minimum wage is appropriate. No, I do not believe that. But there should be lots and lots of training in developing curriculum, classroom management, appropriate forms of discipline, and a hefty amount of individual connection with each student. It is not an extra task to insist that there be frequent and regular communication with every parent.

You posit that the administrators are incompetent but the teachers not. Wrong! There is enough incompetence to go around a few times and then some.

Money cannot be the answer if the priorities of what to spend it on are screwy.

84

 Aug 01, 2017 at 06:48 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #61  
Sorry that I voted for her Says:

Classic example of Bait and Switch!
In her lead caption, the Honorable Judge represents that she is presenting this (multi paragraph) piece based on her experience on the bench. Yet upon review of her written opinion, only ONE paragraph makes mention of her experience on the Bench . And even this one paragraph does not refer to her experience as a Judge; but rather as a trainee.
Ms. Freier makes reference to, draws on, and relys on Judaic sources.Thus, in this realm, she is less of an authority that a 9th grade mesivta Bachur.

When it comes to espousing an opinion on a hashkafic issue, that is the domain of our Torah leaders.

In short, Ms. Frier, leave the Torah to the Rabanim, and stick to the law which is your forte. There are enough problems that frum yidden have with the criminal and civil courts. I don't need a mussar shiur by a vaibel on inyanai chinuch.

A Frum Lawer on Court Street.

I won't ask how you graduated law school. How did you get in?

You are upset by the message, so you attack the messenger. She happens to speak "dem rainem emes". And she is correct. I am not a vaibel, and rather accomplished in my career, Torah based. Yes, her message is correct. Wise up.

85

 Aug 01, 2017 at 06:51 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #67  
Anonymous Says:

You are right. The big problem is MONEY. Teachers are earning way too much money. In Eretz Yisroel they earn 50% less than in the USA. A Kolel Guy earns 60-80% less than a Woman Teacher in Brooklyn an they not asking for "Support and Chizuk" and they are not "stressed and Bitter" Maybe its time to stop hiring teachers who look at their job for "MONEY' and start hiring the ones who look at this an opportunity to serve Hashem. There are thousand of Kolel Yunge Leit who earns a fraction of a Teacher and they are not bitter, stressed and begging for chizuk. They Doing this Loshem Shomayim.

I am no great fan of teachers. But your comment is misguided and plainly incorrect. You will not find teachers who are uninterested in salary. Kollel yungerleit are also interested in the money, but they have entered the kollel with some pledge of support. Would you forgo your wage and do your work Leshaim Shomayim? Get real.

86

 Aug 01, 2017 at 06:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #76  
Esther Says:

As much as I love teaching and as much as I cherish the kedusha of it,I can't work for free. There have been times when I needed to go on Tomhcei Shabbos after our salaries were cut and for years I got my clothes from a gemach. Hashem made me a human being,just like you, and these things tend to wear a person down.

"Love teaching and cherish the kedusha of it" In an ideal worlds you should be paid 100.000+for your work In today's reality when most student are from K'H large families and very small income and Hashem made you human just like me the reality is the most of us human parents cant afford to pay more tuition. At the same time thousands of us are learning in the Kolel without much salary if at all. They "Love Learning" and they "Cherish the Kedusha" Why is it so hard to understand the concept. YES You can be Human, Love teaching, Love learning,cherish the Kedusha and Get paid a small miniature fraction we deserve.If we can find tens of thousand of Fine yunge leit to learn all day for near nothing I am quit sure we should be able to find many ,many fine Women who "Love teaching and they cherish the Kedusha" for much less money we are paying today. Kolel is Not for everyone. Teaching our children is NOT for everyone either, and for sure not for some teachers who are "Stressed,angry and bitter" as someone here quoted as Malkies teachers.

87

 Aug 01, 2017 at 06:58 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #82  
Anonymous Says:

Rebbi Anonymous:

You missed the point completely. If you value midas ho'emes, then you must acknowledge that the yeshivos and schools have a huge problem that is built into the model of chinuch. What has been happening for years is that these discussions become a volleyball game, with parents blaming yeshivos, and yeshivos blaming parents. In this instance, while both sides have merit, you nailed the true problem in quoting "kol de'olim gvar". The yeshivos will always win. The system is badly broken, and needs to be restructured completely. Many of the comments here point directly to severe deficiencies. The mechanchim that read this will continue their status quo. That's the problem.

The bigger problem is that they'll bever read it. Its a on sided story. Only the people suffering from the system are infuriated and want change. Theyre on a great salary and comfy couch and waving their finger left or right for whos accepted. They have no soul to even understand what we the people are enduring.

88

 Aug 01, 2017 at 07:04 PM hernoor Says:

Reply to #81  
Anonymous Says:

What a mixture of some really valid points with some that are borderline crazy.

Your idea of being a "bad influence" is not Torah consistent. Someone with issues, whether a smartphone, short dress, etc. are all matters of chinuch, and should be addressed. The dismissive pattern of throwing these kids out is not acceptable. Most often, this label is misapplied, and, oops, the child is dead.

Exposure to negative stimuli happens everywhere. It is not more toxic if it is a fellow student. Pushing that kid to the street is not the answer. Better or more chinuch is.

You blame Malky for choosing drugs. That is imbecilic, and I don't see how you can articulate everything so well, but issue such a statement. She was not thrown into the street because she was connected to that life. She found drugs after the school placed her on the street. Your attitude is plain chutzpah. What do you know about drugs? About adolescents?

First of all, if a teenager has issues with dress or behavior then no one needs to suffer for it. Neither the principal, nor teachers, not fellow impressionable students. If a teanager cannot behave then they need to take responsibility, as does every human being on planet Earth need to take responsibility for their actions. It's the immoral liberals who claim we need to accept bad behavior and unfortunately this has seeped into the thought process of many in our community and we accept any and every type of behavior regardless of the negative impact it has on others.

As for in Malky's case, I have listened to the audio recording of Malky's father after I made all the my comments. I still stand behind my opinion that we cannot judge the principals and teachers until we hear their side of the story. However, after hearing how hard Malky had it academically, I understand that she felt she couldn't do it anymore . I believe that the school abuses their power by forcing all students to memorize a ridiculous amount of work and so one can understand her pain. I have emailed vosiznaeis a few times to take out my references in my comments about Malky's turn to drugs and another sentence referring to Malky's behavior, but as of now, they still haven't deleted my sentence.

But what do I know of drugs and mind- numbing behavior and adolescents? Nothing accept that I still think that everyone bears responsibility for their behavior. Turning to drugs initially is a choice and instead of screaming about this and that, let those who consider turning towards these substances know that they are committing suicide.

89

 Aug 01, 2017 at 07:06 PM Real answer Says:

Reply to #76  
Esther Says:

As much as I love teaching and as much as I cherish the kedusha of it,I can't work for free. There have been times when I needed to go on Tomhcei Shabbos after our salaries were cut and for years I got my clothes from a gemach. Hashem made me a human being,just like you, and these things tend to wear a person down.

"Can't work for free,Tomchei Shabos,Gemachs...tend to wear a person down" Yes we are all Humans, and yes this does wear many of us down. The answer to that is not LETTING IT OUT ON OUR CHILDREN. The answer to that is to take well paying jobs. Public school teachers (Many Yiden) ear 3-4 times more than Morahs. Leave the teaching of our children to Rebbes/Morahs who don't get worn down easily, who are either strong like many Underpaid Kolel Jungeleit ar wealthy enough not to effect them at all.

90

 Aug 01, 2017 at 07:12 PM gittyaa Says:

Simple solution:
Set up an AFFORDABLE online school, OR a limudei kodesh version of (l'havdil) the Khan academy. Think of all the problems this will solve, bruchnius and bgashmius.
No bullying, abuse, snobbery, incompetent staff...families could relocate to affordable neighborhoods...children could learn together in small groups..

91

 Aug 01, 2017 at 07:22 PM Real answer Says:

Reply to #74  
georgeg Says:

I don`t see any sources for your numbers. But in general terms, one cannot compare incomes from different countries, because (among other things) one needs to compare expenses. My cousin`s widow in the U.S. taught (what may be called) full time in a Jewish school, and her entire salary went to pay for the tuition for her two children in the same school. I hear in Israel the State pays for the school. In fact, my other cousin in Israel lives in a Hareidi community where the state paid for building the synagogue, school etc.

``Kolel Guys``and ``Woman Teacher in Brooklyn`. Maybe the `Woman Teacher`is married to (and supports) the ``Kolel Guy

"Maybe the woman teacher is married to the Kolel guy" Maybe that is the Problem. The Kole Guy is learning, not earning much but mostly happy and cherish the Kedushe, the wife is bitter,angry waiting for chizuk and letting it out on the Children? Maybe she should be getting a well paying job at a Public School etc earn good money to support the family.

92

 Aug 01, 2017 at 07:26 PM realanswer Says:

Reply to #77  
Anonymous Says:

Dont be so dissmissive of single girls. The last few decent gr8 teachers my girls had happnd to be single and in their 20s. Makes no diffrence. U can b the smily 22 yr old and the bitterr 52 yr old w no talent. Nothing is a given. Talent and middos is a must and can rest at any age. Very poor judgement

You are correct. Many maybe most single girls in their 20's are Happy and good teachesr. Unfortunately they have a PACKLE on their hand and we are HUMANS.

93

 Aug 01, 2017 at 07:28 PM Anonymous Says:

The yeshivos can do better. For all the people that say that a yeshiva can not service all the various different academic levels of children, I point to Yeshiva Darchei Torah in Far Rockaway, headed by Rav Yaakov Bender. This incredible yeshiva services all. There is an aleph class for superb students. There are 8 parallel classes for each and every level. There are resource rooms. There are accommodations for the physically handicapped and those with social issues. Why does this Yeshiva exist and thrive? Because the YeShiva cares. It is an indictment on the others that do not care, but only want to have a top class f
or their own reputation.
As the people were exiting the funeral of malki Klein, others were trying to enter the building for the funeral of Reb Mayor Zlottowitz. Funny how Artscroll disseminated Torah to those that previously Had no or limited access. We all came to pay our respects as we should have. Ironically that inability to bring the Torah to people like malki, Was the cause of her spiritual and physical death. We can and we must do better.

94

 Aug 01, 2017 at 07:29 PM Anonymous Says:

Your Honor Judge Frier:
Did you reach out to the Hanhala of that Mosad and explain to them that their principal is a danger to their children. She's afraid of questions because she doesn't know the answers. She needs training quick. Tell her to get the series on Emunah from the Ani Ma'amin Foundation.

95

 Aug 01, 2017 at 07:38 PM realanswer Says:

Reply to #85  
Anonymous Says:

I am no great fan of teachers. But your comment is misguided and plainly incorrect. You will not find teachers who are uninterested in salary. Kollel yungerleit are also interested in the money, but they have entered the kollel with some pledge of support. Would you forgo your wage and do your work Leshaim Shomayim? Get real.

"Entered the Kolel with some Pledge"

1/ Many of the Pledges were not real and never materialized.
2/It's a style. I am quite sure that the same parents would be willing to "Pledge"
equal or more money for their daughters to become MORAHS After all they will
be teaching their Grandchildren.
3/"KolelYungeleit are also interested in money" and? They not getting it. The happy
ones who do it Leshem Shomayim are staying and survive. The others get real
jobs. No one gets hurt in the process unlike when " :Stressed and bitter" teachers
are educating our children as # 60 explained it so eloquently.

96

 Aug 01, 2017 at 07:49 PM hernoor Says:

I don't understand why everyone is making it so complicated. You cannot cut teachers salaries and you are a very ungreatful person if you say so.

To make schools better, simply cut uninspiring teachers and principals even "chusheva" ones from "chusheva families". Cut ridiculous, irrelevent subjects, meaning subjects that have no impact in real life, and fill that gap with clubs for academically inclined children, i.e. science and technology clubs and creative classes for creative children, i.e. music , drama, baking, etc. so that these children have a chance to shine. School should not be the pressure cooker it is with so much homework on top of it. Don't worry about what girls will do in their spare time, if you need to worry about that then you have not taught them well.

And parents need to be responsible and not throw kids with issues into school and expect the teachers to take care of it. If a child has discipline problems, it is the parents fault, they cannot blame the school for not being able to deal with it. Parents and kids who flaunt the rules cannot expect to be understood for all the issues they have in their lives- it's not an excuse to behave untzniusdig, have boyfriends, etc.

And for boys , it's important to understand that not everyone can learn for so many hours straight. Hashem CREATED people differently. So I suggest some sort of music or sports program in every yeshiva.

97

 Aug 01, 2017 at 08:22 PM ayinglefunadorf Says:

Reply to #90  
gittyaa Says:

Simple solution:
Set up an AFFORDABLE online school, OR a limudei kodesh version of (l'havdil) the Khan academy. Think of all the problems this will solve, bruchnius and bgashmius.
No bullying, abuse, snobbery, incompetent staff...families could relocate to affordable neighborhoods...children could learn together in small groups..

Best Post today. Sharp and Kurz. Thank you

98

 Aug 01, 2017 at 08:23 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #90  
gittyaa Says:

Simple solution:
Set up an AFFORDABLE online school, OR a limudei kodesh version of (l'havdil) the Khan academy. Think of all the problems this will solve, bruchnius and bgashmius.
No bullying, abuse, snobbery, incompetent staff...families could relocate to affordable neighborhoods...children could learn together in small groups..

Great Post. Great Solution. Chabad with thousand of frumme everywere has it already. Very few turn of the Derech.

99

 Aug 01, 2017 at 09:57 PM Esther Says:

Reply to #89  
Real answer Says:

"Can't work for free,Tomchei Shabos,Gemachs...tend to wear a person down" Yes we are all Humans, and yes this does wear many of us down. The answer to that is not LETTING IT OUT ON OUR CHILDREN. The answer to that is to take well paying jobs. Public school teachers (Many Yiden) ear 3-4 times more than Morahs. Leave the teaching of our children to Rebbes/Morahs who don't get worn down easily, who are either strong like many Underpaid Kolel Jungeleit ar wealthy enough not to effect them at all.

You and #76 are missing the point. We spend several hours a day with your children. Most of us love these kids and are dedicated to our jobs but more of an investment needs to be made in remunerating teachers. A little hakaras hatov,sheesh.

100

 Aug 01, 2017 at 11:08 PM speech48 Says:

Well i am number 100
Could not read all comments, however so much pain and shame AND great drashas by so many people..
Rabosei..we are suffering from a terrible machla.. the many parents of these beautiful neshamas are hurting, sleepless nights and the whole educational system that is taking the oxygen of growing up. All the eitzah givers out there sicken me. Eitzah givers about parenting...spend a year in the churban of a child who does not know who he or she can trust.The need of two breadwinners to survive and still cannot afford the expenses of holding on to a jewish life.
My answer ..Book Citifield and Madison Square Garden, and say tehillim for at least two hours and let all the great smart gedolim and educational leaders say vidui and beg hashem to find away out of this churban..
Malky Klein obm, beg hashem for us.. we do not know what we are doing ..
The Writer of this article..left yeshiva because i was not a gemara kup..
However came back becse, i realized that ain oid milvado. and built my own community, mikvas.. kollels and and a great yeshiva..and m
ore important a place for all the malkies, joes ,yussies .michaels, avrahams...
chazak

101

 Aug 01, 2017 at 11:17 PM to #82 Says:

Reply to #82  
Anonymous Says:

Rebbi Anonymous:

You missed the point completely. If you value midas ho'emes, then you must acknowledge that the yeshivos and schools have a huge problem that is built into the model of chinuch. What has been happening for years is that these discussions become a volleyball game, with parents blaming yeshivos, and yeshivos blaming parents. In this instance, while both sides have merit, you nailed the true problem in quoting "kol de'olim gvar". The yeshivos will always win. The system is badly broken, and needs to be restructured completely. Many of the comments here point directly to severe deficiencies. The mechanchim that read this will continue their status quo. That's the problem.

"unfortunately I know the point all to well. Do you have a child get suspended from school at 15 and never went back. Do you have a child who was the only child from his class not to be accepted to the schools high school only because he didn't pass the entrance exam. Do you have a child who went to four high schools in two years and not because of behavior issues, but because level two schools have their own issues.. I suffered from the current system, Yes, I can talk and I reiterate what I said before. Sometimes the problem begins at the high school as it did with two of my children. Most often there were problems already in the elementary school.. I see the problems I mentioned year after year in my class More money for resource rooms and guidance counselors would help, but then the child misses out on class work or recess. I agree the current system needs upgrading but to put the entire blame on the school; system is wrong. We also cannot forget that a child has friends from the neighborhood or shul which influence. Family dynamics is a major factor. Is the child the oldest or is number 10 with a nephew 5 years older then him Many parents need parenting classes..

102

 Aug 02, 2017 at 12:42 AM Anonymous Says:

If a child doesn't get into a high school,parents need to assess,what is best for their child--begging the school,getting your rav etc. to try to get in,is not the answer.Even if all the siblings went to that school ,each child is different and THIS child may need a DIFFERENT school.We need to get rid of the stigma of "special " schools, and people need to get over themselves, and realize that.Obviously people are not thinking of their child's best interest, which is understandable-because our children are an extension of ourselves, and it's hard to accept that OUR child has such and such issues.
Why would anybody want their academically challenged/learning disabled child,to be in a "regular" school where their self esteem can be crushed ,as they watch their peers breeze through the classes while they are struggling and FAILING??
Also some students are accepted to "regular" schools,on condition that they go to the easier tracks that the school provides, and even THEN you have parents,who put up a fuss that THEIR child doesn't NEED that..and that they will feel "dumb"...parents wake up!!your child will feel a lot "dumber",in a "regular" class--kids receive all sorts of therapies from a young age and are always going out of class,by the time high school comes around,it's pretty much socially acceptable..
The reason I am preaching this,is because this tragedy really hit home for me,and if I can open up the mind of even one parent out there,it will be will be worth it!
My 10 year old daughter is learning disabled,and it took years before we were able to come to terms with that.
Like Malky we were told at the early age of 4,to have our daughter evaluated,we didn't see anything out of the ordinary,and the bd. of ed. found nothing wrong.(quite frankly we thought her teacher was "nuts")
The next year,we were badgered constantly by the new teacher,but we felt that we did our part,by having her evaluated and that the bd. of ed. found nothing to be amiss.
We had a meeting with the school at the end of the year, and they said she can't proceed to first grade-we took her to a neuropsychologist who was going to write her a script on the spot for inattentive ADHD (she was having trouble focusing)-he promised it will be like "magic" and the school will see the bright girl,that we see-we were not ready to put her on meds. so we asked the school if we could repeat her.
She improved slightly, but, it wasn't enough.
When she finally started first grade,(even though it was very painful for us)we started her on meds. to help her focus.She did o.k. but, there was def. no "magic"-she still struggled academically,but,she was promoted to 2nd grade.
She had an INCREDIBLE teacher,who encouraged her but,she was starting to feel really badly,because she TRIED so HARD but, she was still behind the others.
We switched her medication,and I was called to the school that she was like a zombie-- I ran to pick her up (I couldn't stop crying)as it finally dawned on me that all that time when I felt that the teachers didn't see what I see, I didn't see what THEY saw a few years earlier,or I wouldn't have put us all through so much heartache,trying to keep my daughter in a "regular" school.
I had my daughter reevaluated, and she was diagnosed with a learning disability.,and was recommended to be in a "contained" classroom-which sounded like she was going to be put in a fish bowl!
We went to look at a program, and found other girls, who looked "normal" too, and our fears were totally squashed.We enrolled her there for 3rd grade ,this past year,and she totally thrived with 8 girls in her class, -she learned to read fluently, to play guitar and to knit!!They also do certain activities/things with the mainstream part of the school ,and those girls are totally accepting of them!
Looking back, I am thoroughly horrified at the lengths I went to,to keep my child in a "regular" school-
--Being left back,had an effect on my daughter..she always says,I'm supposed to be in x.. grade....
--The fact that she was put on mind altering drugs,just so she shouldn't go to a "special" school, is mind boggling (we also told her not to discuss it with anyone..and she took it so personally --and the the end of the day she would do h.w. and say "you see it doesn't make me smart it already wore off,it's ME who knew the answer..")
--Listen to what teachers have to say,keep an open mind.
--TEACHER'S--you need to be so careful,how you approach parents,if you see there's an issue,start off with SOMETHING positive about the child, I'm sure you can find ONE thing..so parents can be receptive to what you have to say..

My daughter is beautiful, popular,creative,hilarious, totally "socially normal",and grounded,she just happens to learn a different way than most people and if you don't want to consider her for your your precious son one day..because she went to a "special" school, then YOU are losing out on a really "special" girl!

103

 Aug 02, 2017 at 12:53 AM a-believer Says:

I am amazed by all the comments/ suggestions! One thing everyone agrees upon is that we need to change ! That goes for all of us, the parents and the Mosdos!
Each and everyone of us has the power to make a difference. If we just turn the page and ignore the cries it's as if we're hiding in the sand. Please let's wake up ..........

104

 Aug 02, 2017 at 01:12 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #48  
BurichBoy Says:

I have printed Ruchi's article, and I'm making 100's of copies on a CD from the interview Mr Klein gave, I'm going to mail it along to all schools in Brooklyn, I suggest everyone who reads this to do the same, we need to flood all schools with the message that we are not happy and we protest, this is a civil way to do it.

your doing to the sach! please make sure that every principal gets one, thanks.

105

 Aug 02, 2017 at 01:25 AM Yossie Says:

I work with special ed kids in schools. While some of the stories especially malkys is truly heartbreaking. The issue is far from simple. Many many times the parents are to blame. And the negative effect one kid can have on others is very powerful. 2/3 kids in my sons elementary class brought down the majority. These are dini nafoshis as the author pointed out.
Which brings me to my other point. If I knew a smattering of law would mrs frier deem it proper for me to sit on the supreme court. And decide fundamental constitutional law ? Although mrs frier concern is admirable. It is not her place to decide on correct courses of action. For klal yisroel. It's the gedolay Yisroel. Especially by just employing a gemorah and a nice vort. That is not serious Torah research. Before Sara schnierer started the bais yaakov movement she consulted almost all the gedolim.

106

 Aug 02, 2017 at 01:32 AM fEsther Says:

Reply to #102  
Anonymous Says:

If a child doesn't get into a high school,parents need to assess,what is best for their child--begging the school,getting your rav etc. to try to get in,is not the answer.Even if all the siblings went to that school ,each child is different and THIS child may need a DIFFERENT school.We need to get rid of the stigma of "special " schools, and people need to get over themselves, and realize that.Obviously people are not thinking of their child's best interest, which is understandable-because our children are an extension of ourselves, and it's hard to accept that OUR child has such and such issues.
Why would anybody want their academically challenged/learning disabled child,to be in a "regular" school where their self esteem can be crushed ,as they watch their peers breeze through the classes while they are struggling and FAILING??
Also some students are accepted to "regular" schools,on condition that they go to the easier tracks that the school provides, and even THEN you have parents,who put up a fuss that THEIR child doesn't NEED that..and that they will feel "dumb"...parents wake up!!your child will feel a lot "dumber",in a "regular" class--kids receive all sorts of therapies from a young age and are always going out of class,by the time high school comes around,it's pretty much socially acceptable..
The reason I am preaching this,is because this tragedy really hit home for me,and if I can open up the mind of even one parent out there,it will be will be worth it!
My 10 year old daughter is learning disabled,and it took years before we were able to come to terms with that.
Like Malky we were told at the early age of 4,to have our daughter evaluated,we didn't see anything out of the ordinary,and the bd. of ed. found nothing wrong.(quite frankly we thought her teacher was "nuts")
The next year,we were badgered constantly by the new teacher,but we felt that we did our part,by having her evaluated and that the bd. of ed. found nothing to be amiss.
We had a meeting with the school at the end of the year, and they said she can't proceed to first grade-we took her to a neuropsychologist who was going to write her a script on the spot for inattentive ADHD (she was having trouble focusing)-he promised it will be like "magic" and the school will see the bright girl,that we see-we were not ready to put her on meds. so we asked the school if we could repeat her.
She improved slightly, but, it wasn't enough.
When she finally started first grade,(even though it was very painful for us)we started her on meds. to help her focus.She did o.k. but, there was def. no "magic"-she still struggled academically,but,she was promoted to 2nd grade.
She had an INCREDIBLE teacher,who encouraged her but,she was starting to feel really badly,because she TRIED so HARD but, she was still behind the others.
We switched her medication,and I was called to the school that she was like a zombie-- I ran to pick her up (I couldn't stop crying)as it finally dawned on me that all that time when I felt that the teachers didn't see what I see, I didn't see what THEY saw a few years earlier,or I wouldn't have put us all through so much heartache,trying to keep my daughter in a "regular" school.
I had my daughter reevaluated, and she was diagnosed with a learning disability.,and was recommended to be in a "contained" classroom-which sounded like she was going to be put in a fish bowl!
We went to look at a program, and found other girls, who looked "normal" too, and our fears were totally squashed.We enrolled her there for 3rd grade ,this past year,and she totally thrived with 8 girls in her class, -she learned to read fluently, to play guitar and to knit!!They also do certain activities/things with the mainstream part of the school ,and those girls are totally accepting of them!
Looking back, I am thoroughly horrified at the lengths I went to,to keep my child in a "regular" school-
--Being left back,had an effect on my daughter..she always says,I'm supposed to be in x.. grade....
--The fact that she was put on mind altering drugs,just so she shouldn't go to a "special" school, is mind boggling (we also told her not to discuss it with anyone..and she took it so personally --and the the end of the day she would do h.w. and say "you see it doesn't make me smart it already wore off,it's ME who knew the answer..")
--Listen to what teachers have to say,keep an open mind.
--TEACHER'S--you need to be so careful,how you approach parents,if you see there's an issue,start off with SOMETHING positive about the child, I'm sure you can find ONE thing..so parents can be receptive to what you have to say..

My daughter is beautiful, popular,creative,hilarious, totally "socially normal",and grounded,she just happens to learn a different way than most people and if you don't want to consider her for your your precious son one day..because she went to a "special" school, then YOU are losing out on a really "special" girl!

One of the important lessons here is always do testing for learning issues etc. before meds. That's the LAST resort.

107

 Aug 02, 2017 at 01:38 AM fEsther Says:

Reply to #102  
Anonymous Says:

If a child doesn't get into a high school,parents need to assess,what is best for their child--begging the school,getting your rav etc. to try to get in,is not the answer.Even if all the siblings went to that school ,each child is different and THIS child may need a DIFFERENT school.We need to get rid of the stigma of "special " schools, and people need to get over themselves, and realize that.Obviously people are not thinking of their child's best interest, which is understandable-because our children are an extension of ourselves, and it's hard to accept that OUR child has such and such issues.
Why would anybody want their academically challenged/learning disabled child,to be in a "regular" school where their self esteem can be crushed ,as they watch their peers breeze through the classes while they are struggling and FAILING??
Also some students are accepted to "regular" schools,on condition that they go to the easier tracks that the school provides, and even THEN you have parents,who put up a fuss that THEIR child doesn't NEED that..and that they will feel "dumb"...parents wake up!!your child will feel a lot "dumber",in a "regular" class--kids receive all sorts of therapies from a young age and are always going out of class,by the time high school comes around,it's pretty much socially acceptable..
The reason I am preaching this,is because this tragedy really hit home for me,and if I can open up the mind of even one parent out there,it will be will be worth it!
My 10 year old daughter is learning disabled,and it took years before we were able to come to terms with that.
Like Malky we were told at the early age of 4,to have our daughter evaluated,we didn't see anything out of the ordinary,and the bd. of ed. found nothing wrong.(quite frankly we thought her teacher was "nuts")
The next year,we were badgered constantly by the new teacher,but we felt that we did our part,by having her evaluated and that the bd. of ed. found nothing to be amiss.
We had a meeting with the school at the end of the year, and they said she can't proceed to first grade-we took her to a neuropsychologist who was going to write her a script on the spot for inattentive ADHD (she was having trouble focusing)-he promised it will be like "magic" and the school will see the bright girl,that we see-we were not ready to put her on meds. so we asked the school if we could repeat her.
She improved slightly, but, it wasn't enough.
When she finally started first grade,(even though it was very painful for us)we started her on meds. to help her focus.She did o.k. but, there was def. no "magic"-she still struggled academically,but,she was promoted to 2nd grade.
She had an INCREDIBLE teacher,who encouraged her but,she was starting to feel really badly,because she TRIED so HARD but, she was still behind the others.
We switched her medication,and I was called to the school that she was like a zombie-- I ran to pick her up (I couldn't stop crying)as it finally dawned on me that all that time when I felt that the teachers didn't see what I see, I didn't see what THEY saw a few years earlier,or I wouldn't have put us all through so much heartache,trying to keep my daughter in a "regular" school.
I had my daughter reevaluated, and she was diagnosed with a learning disability.,and was recommended to be in a "contained" classroom-which sounded like she was going to be put in a fish bowl!
We went to look at a program, and found other girls, who looked "normal" too, and our fears were totally squashed.We enrolled her there for 3rd grade ,this past year,and she totally thrived with 8 girls in her class, -she learned to read fluently, to play guitar and to knit!!They also do certain activities/things with the mainstream part of the school ,and those girls are totally accepting of them!
Looking back, I am thoroughly horrified at the lengths I went to,to keep my child in a "regular" school-
--Being left back,had an effect on my daughter..she always says,I'm supposed to be in x.. grade....
--The fact that she was put on mind altering drugs,just so she shouldn't go to a "special" school, is mind boggling (we also told her not to discuss it with anyone..and she took it so personally --and the the end of the day she would do h.w. and say "you see it doesn't make me smart it already wore off,it's ME who knew the answer..")
--Listen to what teachers have to say,keep an open mind.
--TEACHER'S--you need to be so careful,how you approach parents,if you see there's an issue,start off with SOMETHING positive about the child, I'm sure you can find ONE thing..so parents can be receptive to what you have to say..

My daughter is beautiful, popular,creative,hilarious, totally "socially normal",and grounded,she just happens to learn a different way than most people and if you don't want to consider her for your your precious son one day..because she went to a "special" school, then YOU are losing out on a really "special" girl!

One more thing. Public schools often don't want to find a problem because they often have an agenda to try and not give expensive services. Parents can contest the results. Talking to other parents who've been through the system can be very informative and helpful.

108

 Aug 02, 2017 at 01:53 AM DOVE1 Says:

How can you ruin such a beautiful piece with bringing a vort from Kook which all Gedoilim said he is טמא?

109

 Aug 02, 2017 at 02:07 AM retired teacher - with degree Says:

Reply to #98  
Anonymous Says:

Great Post. Great Solution. Chabad with thousand of frumme everywere has it already. Very few turn of the Derech.

I just want to point out that yes, Chabad has an online school - for Shluchim's kids only. My grandchildren are students there & they get a fantastic education, no question. But.... it is ridiculously expensive, really unaffordable for most Shluchim, so they cut out other things like camp.

There isn't an easy fix here, but teachers MUST be trained, if not through a reputable college, then through Torah U'Mesorah or something. No teacher should be allowed in a school/Yeshiva without certification in pedagogy & subject matter. EVERY PRINCIPAL must have a BA (minimum) + 20 years teaching experience and should be approved by an independent Board (frum expert educators like Rabbi Nochum Kaplan, Mr. Shimon Warenker, Rabbi Kellman, Dr. Katz etc) before being confirmed by a school or Yeshiva. Too many people in education do not belong there and our children suffer.

110

 Aug 02, 2017 at 03:10 AM Sars Says:

To impact any unregulated organization one must follow the money.
There's only one person I can think of that can really change the system: Rechnitz.
The folks that keep the lights on have the power to keep your kids in.

111

 Aug 02, 2017 at 04:34 AM Judge Says:

Amazing written op-end, she is a role model for the hasidic community, what a kiddush hashem she inspired in world as being the first hasidic woman elected.

112

 Aug 02, 2017 at 06:08 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #28  
Pops Says:

There have been many good points made. I would add that we as a community also need to educate/raise our children to have ahavas yisroel. If they have a friend, neighbor or class mate that has been marginalized by the system, we need to reach out to them. Parents should invite such children over for a play dates, and kids should be encouraged to be friends with them. Kids must be taught to show love for every jew. Maybe then, these kids will feel more like an integral part of the community. I noticed when my kids were growing up that often the more "frum" kids or the kids from the "choshuveh" families were often very snobbish and cliquish. I think in a suttle way that kids see these kids as the "system", when they are marginalized by these kids, they feel themselves to be less of a part of the "system"

You are 100% right!!! In my family we have all types & where there are some that aren't accepting of all the different types in our family, we have one that does whether they are OTD, gay, apikores, MO, reform...& she married a satmar dayan who also accepts all & i personally think thats what is wanted by hashem. In fact, if you ask her, shed say thats the only way to bring them around & I've seen her do so at her young age. Therefore, I think the schools need to keep every child in their school so that we can educate them & bring them closer to yidishkiet

113

 Aug 02, 2017 at 06:20 AM Me Says:

Reply to #31  
hernoor Says:

Are you nuts?! Don't you know that by exposing kids to this knowledge it becomes more accessible like by the goyim?! Hashem yerachem! Hashem please save us from fools in our community!

You mean such as yourself? If so, you're right we do need saving from people like you who have yet to have their perfect world come crashing down at their knees. This world is made up of many types & unless you're willing to accept them you're part of the problem. However, when your child or grandchild will become part of what you consider the problem then you'll make all the excuses & cry out for help, but no one will listen bec of the hatred you spew will come right back at you from others. What happened when Miriam thought Moshe married beneath him? Who was punished? Should schools keep children that don't measure up to your standards or should you accept all yidisheh kindalach? Learn from the story of Miriam.

114

 Aug 02, 2017 at 06:33 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #48  
BurichBoy Says:

I have printed Ruchi's article, and I'm making 100's of copies on a CD from the interview Mr Klein gave, I'm going to mail it along to all schools in Brooklyn, I suggest everyone who reads this to do the same, we need to flood all schools with the message that we are not happy and we protest, this is a civil way to do it.

I stand up for you burichboy, you are a man to look up to with admiration & with respect. Many sit & yenteh about what is right & what is wrong (most accepting & be living that sinas chinam is the way to go) but you are above all that & have come up with a possible solution, I just hope the schools listen.

115

 Aug 02, 2017 at 06:48 AM Me Says:

Reply to #58  
answers Says:

I have the answer!
How in the world do we as parents expect a rebbe, morah, or English teacher to have 25 children in one class for 2-5 hours a day and meet the needs of all them?!
Most parents cannot spend a whole shabbos meal once a week with all their kids. Dismiss them from the shabbos table or the kids just go to play.
I want to see ONE asken, ONE parents try and teach a class of 25 year olds for one week. But Don't just teach. Teach, inspire, look each kid in the eye, show compassion, never get upset etc. That is the easy part. The challenge for a teacher? Incompetent administrators for the most part, and parents that are nebach under pressure to have kids that fit in. They can't and don't want to hear that their yankele or chanele have an issue and the teacher is told by the incompetent administrator - you can do it.
Solution?
I challenge Mrs. Fier and all concerned parents and askanim to nip the problem in it's heel. Every single classroom MUST have two aides that can tend to the needs of each child. Teachers MUST communicate with every single parent once a month. Principals are a major problem and I don't have a solution.
Thats right. Teachers are vastly underpaid

When I was in school there were 30 kids & even 31 kids in our class. We had gerim, bal thuvas, kids from whole families, kids from divorced families, kids who were OTD & kids who were chasidim, but we had excellent teachers & even better principals that made the teaching come alive for us & each student was handled with kid gloves & to their needs. Therefore, it's not the amount of kids in each class. It's the teachers & principals. Oh & if any kid wants to go to college, the classrooms are larger than 25 people as well

116

 Aug 02, 2017 at 06:53 AM Me Says:

Reply to #60  
answers Says:

Continued.
The answer is Money! Thats right.......money!!!!
How can a teacher, even the best of them focus on so many kids all day?!
Therapists work one on one.
Yet, the rebbe or morah is expected to be a teacher, mom or dad, therapist, mediator at recess, and fifty other things all day long.
You want to make a difference?
DEMAND higher teacher to student ratio!
I challenge one parent or askan to try the impossible job of teaching so many for so long all alone.
We have a solution but it won't happen. You know why?
Bc ed. consultants give fancy data and theories and don't give practical solutions, and ppl don't get kavod for giving gelt to teachers.
Some might say what does this have to do w Malky a"h?
I am positive that Malkies moros and teachers were stressed and maybe bittter. i am in no way excusing their behavior at all. However, the teachers need support and chizuk as well.

Oh & I forgot to add there were no teachers aides, so yes our kids can learn of teachers knew how to teach. I will say you're right we pay doctors a lot by the hour, but teachers are left penniless especially in israel, but that's a whole other story

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 Aug 02, 2017 at 06:58 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #61  
Sorry that I voted for her Says:

Classic example of Bait and Switch!
In her lead caption, the Honorable Judge represents that she is presenting this (multi paragraph) piece based on her experience on the bench. Yet upon review of her written opinion, only ONE paragraph makes mention of her experience on the Bench . And even this one paragraph does not refer to her experience as a Judge; but rather as a trainee.
Ms. Freier makes reference to, draws on, and relys on Judaic sources.Thus, in this realm, she is less of an authority that a 9th grade mesivta Bachur.

When it comes to espousing an opinion on a hashkafic issue, that is the domain of our Torah leaders.

In short, Ms. Frier, leave the Torah to the Rabanim, and stick to the law which is your forte. There are enough problems that frum yidden have with the criminal and civil courts. I don't need a mussar shiur by a vaibel on inyanai chinuch.

A Frum Lawer on Court Street.

Shame on You! What's your problem that a woman is higher than you in her career & has more knowledge of Torah in her little pinky than you have in your whole brain?! She is a Jewish woman not a judge woman & therefore she speaks of Torah with every breath like we all should, constantly making her point & giving proof from the Torah rather than the bench.

118

 Aug 02, 2017 at 07:07 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #66  
Anonymous Says:

Something that has not been mention here; First we have to lower our standard of living and support school and have departments to help all kids not just the stars.
People want the money and their children to go to star schools but if you hav ADD or AHD kids nobody want to help. We don't need new cars every 2 years but we need that not one kid feels rejected or ends up on drugs. We are too much in the secular word of things including dress style and gashmius. I don't know why anybody who is not working needs a smart phone. Why do women walk the street push a pram while her ear is attach to a phone. She is out with her kids pay attention. When the cross the street the main thing is the phone not the kids. I watch the men walking the streets and almost all are attach to a phone why. I am a businessman but never walk on the street with my phone to my ear. We need to spend less on things and more to give to schools to make all kids fit in. If you think I am wrong think again. We need to give all to help the community.
I have a new car because my last one was 12 years old. I don't have it for the next 3 weeks because I gave it to a Rosh Yeshiva so he could have a good car to go on vac

Kol hakavod, youre 100% right & a tzadik to boot. A tzadik is someone eho thinks of the other & giving aeay your car to someone ekse is righteous. As for women walking while pushing their babies into traffic, they need to stop that or cv there are going to be more tragedies than what already have occurred. I remember seeing a 5 year old crossing on 13th ave the mother was window shopping & never realized the kid had walked away, but of course the minute she did it was the older kids fault who was across the street & the reason the 5 year old had crossed the street!

119

 Aug 02, 2017 at 07:23 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #76  
Esther Says:

As much as I love teaching and as much as I cherish the kedusha of it,I can't work for free. There have been times when I needed to go on Tomhcei Shabbos after our salaries were cut and for years I got my clothes from a gemach. Hashem made me a human being,just like you, and these things tend to wear a person down.

Yes, you have every right to not have to get your clothing from a teach & be on tomchei Shabbat (not that there is anything wrong with that). As a teacher you should be paid as much as a doctor since you are saving our children & guiding our children just like a doctor saves children. I'm sorry you had to do that & while my respect & admiration isn't money I thank you for being a good teacher & not being a part of the problem. Unfortunately, I see a lot of people don't realize that the money they pay for tuition isn't getting to the teachers, but I understand that all to well with many teachers in my family who weren't part of the issue & were just the opposite. In fact my mom (may she have a leylu nishmas) saw a girl who was to shy to talk in class talking out on the street from then on she rewarded her for every time she spoke up in class.

120

 Aug 02, 2017 at 07:15 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #75  
real answer Says:

"We the parents MUST support the underpaid teachers"
1/ We the parents in Kolel or working hard at 40-50.000/year with B"H 8-10 kids
should pay More Tuition? Its Not funny at all.
2/ Teachers are overpaid not underpaid. Ask any Kolel Yungeleit how much he
earns? If you do it Leshem Shomayim (Tens of thousands do it in Kolel) Money is
not the main reason.
3/ Who is "Bob Grant" Is he the one where you are getting your Hashkofeh?
4/ I sure hope your "stressed and bitter " teachers are not "Bob Grant
readers/followers.

You have it a little mixed up, you're right tuition is crazy high, but it's not going to the teachers. Unfortunately, by the time the cash flow gets to the teachers it's a fraction of what they should be getting.

121

 Aug 02, 2017 at 07:33 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #88  
hernoor Says:

First of all, if a teenager has issues with dress or behavior then no one needs to suffer for it. Neither the principal, nor teachers, not fellow impressionable students. If a teanager cannot behave then they need to take responsibility, as does every human being on planet Earth need to take responsibility for their actions. It's the immoral liberals who claim we need to accept bad behavior and unfortunately this has seeped into the thought process of many in our community and we accept any and every type of behavior regardless of the negative impact it has on others.

As for in Malky's case, I have listened to the audio recording of Malky's father after I made all the my comments. I still stand behind my opinion that we cannot judge the principals and teachers until we hear their side of the story. However, after hearing how hard Malky had it academically, I understand that she felt she couldn't do it anymore . I believe that the school abuses their power by forcing all students to memorize a ridiculous amount of work and so one can understand her pain. I have emailed vosiznaeis a few times to take out my references in my comments about Malky's turn to drugs and another sentence referring to Malky's behavior, but as of now, they still haven't deleted my sentence.

But what do I know of drugs and mind- numbing behavior and adolescents? Nothing accept that I still think that everyone bears responsibility for their behavior. Turning to drugs initially is a choice and instead of screaming about this and that, let those who consider turning towards these substances know that they are committing suicide.

Interesting how you consider the Torah immoral since it speaks many times against sinas chinam which you are pushing. Oh & I'm FAR from a liberal.

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 Aug 02, 2017 at 07:48 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #100  
speech48 Says:

Well i am number 100
Could not read all comments, however so much pain and shame AND great drashas by so many people..
Rabosei..we are suffering from a terrible machla.. the many parents of these beautiful neshamas are hurting, sleepless nights and the whole educational system that is taking the oxygen of growing up. All the eitzah givers out there sicken me. Eitzah givers about parenting...spend a year in the churban of a child who does not know who he or she can trust.The need of two breadwinners to survive and still cannot afford the expenses of holding on to a jewish life.
My answer ..Book Citifield and Madison Square Garden, and say tehillim for at least two hours and let all the great smart gedolim and educational leaders say vidui and beg hashem to find away out of this churban..
Malky Klein obm, beg hashem for us.. we do not know what we are doing ..
The Writer of this article..left yeshiva because i was not a gemara kup..
However came back becse, i realized that ain oid milvado. and built my own community, mikvas.. kollels and and a great yeshiva..and m
ore important a place for all the malkies, joes ,yussies .michaels, avrahams...
chazak

Thank you for standing outside the box with ahavas chinam like the Woodburne rebbe & others who came before him like rabbi Shlomo Carlbach who showed love to every new simply bec they were Jewish & the same with my treat grandfather (a few great grandfathers back) the bardicheve rebbe who knew we had to love every yid for being a gif before knowing what he was... who was more important.

123

 Aug 02, 2017 at 07:59 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #108  
DOVE1 Says:

How can you ruin such a beautiful piece with bringing a vort from Kook which all Gedoilim said he is טמא?

I don't know who you're gedolim are but rav kook was a great tzadik & u have no right to say otherwise.first of all, I doubt highly you are better than him & second that is pure sinas chinam

124

 Aug 02, 2017 at 09:23 AM georgeg Says:

Reply to #108  
DOVE1 Says:

How can you ruin such a beautiful piece with bringing a vort from Kook which all Gedoilim said he is טמא?

So now you have given yourself the task of begging forgiveness not only from R. Kook (which I guess means visiting his grave with a minyan) but also from "all Gedolim" as well.

125

 Aug 02, 2017 at 09:31 AM Elird Says:

Reply to #49  
StamHuman Says:

I'm tired of seeing all these Rabbis and Rebbitzens bemoaning the existence of OTD kids as 'the loss of so many children'. I just want to grab them by the shoulders, look them in the eye, and say:

We are not lost.
We are still here.
We lost you.

Before we ever had you, we lost you.

We lost you to a book, you lost us to every other book.
We lost you to war for one country, you lost us to every other island and continent.
We lost you to ignorance, you lost us to the sum total of the remainder of human knowledge.

Why?

You mourn yourselves as victims of genocide when your own holy book gloats over your own genocide of the seven nations of Canaan, and pray for a day when you will do the same to Amalek.
You mourn the loss of connection to your Father in heaven when fathers among you have abandoned your own children.
You pray for the return of a temple where the blind, ugly, and disabled cannot enter.
We left, but we are not lost.

I Hear your pain.
To clarify one small detail "You pray for the return of a temple where the blind, ugly, and disabled cannot enter." - This law only applies to Kohanim doing the Priestly service in the Bais Hamikdosh. Anyone with any disability can enter the Bais Hamikdash.
Also "gloats over your own genocide of the seven nations of Canaan" I am not familiar with such a attitude in the Torah?
Try to keep in mind a teaching of the Baal Shem Tov and the Vilna Gaon that the Erev Rav will be the Rabbis and Leaders of the Jewish nation in the generation before Mashiach.

126

 Aug 02, 2017 at 09:44 AM georgeg Says:

Reply to #105  
Yossie Says:

I work with special ed kids in schools. While some of the stories especially malkys is truly heartbreaking. The issue is far from simple. Many many times the parents are to blame. And the negative effect one kid can have on others is very powerful. 2/3 kids in my sons elementary class brought down the majority. These are dini nafoshis as the author pointed out.
Which brings me to my other point. If I knew a smattering of law would mrs frier deem it proper for me to sit on the supreme court. And decide fundamental constitutional law ? Although mrs frier concern is admirable. It is not her place to decide on correct courses of action. For klal yisroel. It's the gedolay Yisroel. Especially by just employing a gemorah and a nice vort. That is not serious Torah research. Before Sara schnierer started the bais yaakov movement she consulted almost all the gedolim.

> Before Sara schnierer started the bais yaakov movement she consulted almost all the gedolim.

Aside from showing that she was wise enough to know she needed the support in order to succeed, I don't see your point. Are you saying that the gedolim made the school and she was a figurehead (which is what you imply by your context). Our tradition teaches us that the woman has the better insight, starting from Sarah who had better insight than Avraham as to the education of their children.

127

 Aug 02, 2017 at 10:24 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #105  
Yossie Says:

I work with special ed kids in schools. While some of the stories especially malkys is truly heartbreaking. The issue is far from simple. Many many times the parents are to blame. And the negative effect one kid can have on others is very powerful. 2/3 kids in my sons elementary class brought down the majority. These are dini nafoshis as the author pointed out.
Which brings me to my other point. If I knew a smattering of law would mrs frier deem it proper for me to sit on the supreme court. And decide fundamental constitutional law ? Although mrs frier concern is admirable. It is not her place to decide on correct courses of action. For klal yisroel. It's the gedolay Yisroel. Especially by just employing a gemorah and a nice vort. That is not serious Torah research. Before Sara schnierer started the bais yaakov movement she consulted almost all the gedolim.

Yossie:

I wish to challenge your statements. You make a claim that 2-3 kids on your son's elementary class brought down the majority. That is most likely false. Here's why. Firstly, the 2-3 kids present the rebbe and menahel with a challenge. They obviously failed to handle the situation. I bet they deteriorated to the level of discipline, and lost the battle. Secondly, if the school would have managed the rest of the class appropriately, they would not have fallen into the place of influence by the 2-3 troublemakers.

As for your career in special ed, I wish to make a broad and bold statement. There certainly are differences in learning patterns between kids, with a full spectrum of levels on every facet. But we are facing a greater problem with teaching disabilities than with learning disabilities. I know you field of work focuses elsewhere. But maybe the system should broaden its perspective a bit. We will see less stigmatization, and our yeshivos will be inclusive, not exclusive. Klal Yisroel only wins that way.

Lastly, Judge Freier speaks the truth. Shut up and listen. You might learn something.

128

 Aug 02, 2017 at 10:27 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #108  
DOVE1 Says:

How can you ruin such a beautiful piece with bringing a vort from Kook which all Gedoilim said he is טמא?

How can you speak with such filth? No one questioned that Rav Kook was a Gadol. Many adopted opinions different from his, and sometimes different was very, very different. "All gedolim said he is טמא"? Where did you create that from?

129

 Aug 02, 2017 at 03:40 PM Derech Eretz Says:

We have a lot of issues with the schools. We have one example in lakewood. certain schools will not accept kids from homes that the father works. Now did u ever think who pays the expenses and upkeep of these schools. I will tell u who. the big philanthropist who want to see their names on the wall and in the newspaper. what a shame.

130

 Aug 02, 2017 at 03:41 PM VoiceOfSanity Says:

Reply to #31  
hernoor Says:

Are you nuts?! Don't you know that by exposing kids to this knowledge it becomes more accessible like by the goyim?! Hashem yerachem! Hashem please save us from fools in our community!

You're absolutely clueless and G-d help your children. YOU are the problem here. You have NO idea what your kids face every day and you have the NERVE to preach about "children not fitting in a box"? You are contradicting your own NARISHKEIT. What is infuriating and VERY telling is the fact that you can assume that Malky Klein Z"L was not "following the rules". Malky's fall came about AFTER BASELESS REJECTION BECAUSE OF EGO AND ELITISM AND ABSOLUTE STUPIDITY. ALL SHE WANTED TO DO WAS SUCCEED AND BE A GOOD BAS YISROEL AND MAKE HASHEM AND HER PARENTS PROUD AND WE FAILED HER MISERABLY!!! And you have the chutzpah to repeat the same party line about protecting our children from the bad influences. How about PROTECTING THEM BEFORE THEY BECOME THE BAD INFLUENCES. Before they sink into so much pain and despair that their lives become worthless in their own eyes!!! How about listen carefully to the Mr. Klein's interview. Try and feel his incredible pain and THEN preach.

131

 Aug 02, 2017 at 03:51 PM Derech eretz Says:

without mentioning names a certain camp has always put down every godol if he did not agree with their philosophy. so why are u surprised when someone says that rav kook was no good.

132

 Aug 02, 2017 at 04:00 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #62  
Systemic Issue Says:

Amen, amen and amen to the article.

Then I read the bottom of it, and this sentence:
I wish to thank my Choshuv son in law....

and I groaned.

Choshuv!

Herein lies the crux of the problem! The systemic issue that is plaguing the community is...elitism, or as I would put it, Choshuv'ism.

It would suffice to write devoted son in law, dear son in law or any term of endearment, but why the classism?

Its ironic that this important essay was ended this way. The crux of this problem in Chinuch is that everyone wants to be Choshuv, hence the overprotective mothers and schools.

Not that this article/essay is not brilliant, true, honest and courageous. However, its post script reminds me that Systemic Classism, to honour, to be a 'top' person is pervasive, even with the very people working hard to changing the status quo.

I hope this article is reprinted and distributed to every person in Chinuch; it is well written and encompassing, and should be mandatory reading....but for goodness sake, omit the elitist shtick. It enables this destructive caste style-system to flourish. Let's cut it out.

Agreed 100%. There was a meshulach in my shul the other day who was going around the shul asking "Who wants to help a Chashuv family" as if only they are entitled to be helped. I told him I want to help a "not chasuv family". He just laughed. This has become a cancer in Klal Yisroel. I am SURE that this is not what Hashem wants.

133

 Aug 02, 2017 at 04:13 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #93  
Anonymous Says:

The yeshivos can do better. For all the people that say that a yeshiva can not service all the various different academic levels of children, I point to Yeshiva Darchei Torah in Far Rockaway, headed by Rav Yaakov Bender. This incredible yeshiva services all. There is an aleph class for superb students. There are 8 parallel classes for each and every level. There are resource rooms. There are accommodations for the physically handicapped and those with social issues. Why does this Yeshiva exist and thrive? Because the YeShiva cares. It is an indictment on the others that do not care, but only want to have a top class f
or their own reputation.
As the people were exiting the funeral of malki Klein, others were trying to enter the building for the funeral of Reb Mayor Zlottowitz. Funny how Artscroll disseminated Torah to those that previously Had no or limited access. We all came to pay our respects as we should have. Ironically that inability to bring the Torah to people like malki, Was the cause of her spiritual and physical death. We can and we must do better.

There are MANY, MANY, MANY problems in that Yeshiva - speaking from experience. Yes, Rabbi Bender does care and does love the talmidim. But if you think you can maintain a successful Yeshiva with 250 boys in every grade, I have a bridge to sell you. That Yeshiva needs to be cut in half.

134

 Aug 02, 2017 at 04:29 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #13  
hernoor Says:

It is imperative that schools stop focusing so much on irrelevant educational material that is very hard for 50% of the student body to memorize and which serves no purpose in life other than to force students to memorize material for hours, and whether they got good test marks or not, sooner or later this irrelevant knowledge will be forgotten by students in any case. Some students will forget after they finish school and some will forget the material as soon as they finish the test. Educators keep in mind, ONLY education that kids use in real life, reading, writing , basic math, etc. will be remembered. Stop forcing nonsense down kids' throat. Stop trying to force them to remember hundreds of meforshim and force them to memorize a ridiculous amount of secular information . It serves no purpose besides for getting those students who have a hard time memorizing, all angry about school. Instead, build up the students characters, giving them the chance to excel in science clubs, drama, music. THIS is education. Not everyone is a square you can neatly put them into the box. Children come in all shapes and sizes. Same for bucharim, we need to remember the Yissaschar and Zevulun partnership. Hashem created everyone differently and we can't expect everyone to sit for hours and hours learning. And even those bucharim who have pushed themselves in their younger years in yeshiva sometimes push themselves to the max because of the pres sure to be the best boy. By the time they are 19,20, many feel burnt. Some even get depressed because the pressure was too much. The "system" of education needs to be relaxed to the standard that all students are comfortable reaching their level of success. And more more needs to be stressed on developing. mosdos and derech eretz and personal responsibility for the choices they make in life, as well as instilling students with an appreciation of Yiddishkeit. Parents, from their part, need to respect that the average mosod is not equipped, and it is not rational to expect them to be equipped, to service the needs of those students who need professional help or are not reasonably disciplined by parents. The school cannot give the chinuch and discipline that is required of parents , nor offer professional help should the child need it (which btw, is relied on too heavily today as many parents who should, but don't want to, deal with kids tantrums because it's easier to pop pills). And the average school usually working on a deficit, or at most on a shoestring budget, usually does not have the means to provide students with severe learning disabilities (which is actually the wrong terminology used to describe these children as in most cases they just process information differently than average students) the help they deserve.

so well written! im dreaming about a school thats pressure free and yet the girls will learn and be like evrybody else w/o pressure for exp.yes the girls will take tests but who sais it has to be made up of 10 parts isnt 3 parts enough ?who decided that the girls have to study their heads off, being up half a night with things they learnt 4 months befor ?and when they did study for 6 hr they get back a bad mark bec ,the system sais to ask twisted and beat around the bush ques.why cant you ask spit back ques if they know it, they know it..everything is peer pressure its time to give more extra curriculum. who sais you must learn chumash5 times a week ?isnt 3x enough?how important is it to learn 3 rashes with every pussak? would you let the girls and thier mothers live a little if anyone ever opens a pressure free school they will turn out to be amazing ! you can show the world how great school could be without being tortured and enjoy every minute of shcool.with a new system so many kids would be helped ,it will solve so many prob ! we need the nachshon to open the school(i even thought of perfect name for school) and many great ideas,lets go sombody please.

135

 Aug 02, 2017 at 04:51 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #126  
georgeg Says:

> Before Sara schnierer started the bais yaakov movement she consulted almost all the gedolim.

Aside from showing that she was wise enough to know she needed the support in order to succeed, I don't see your point. Are you saying that the gedolim made the school and she was a figurehead (which is what you imply by your context). Our tradition teaches us that the woman has the better insight, starting from Sarah who had better insight than Avraham as to the education of their children.

If sara schnierer would see whats happening today with all the crazy studying and tests ,and how much prob it causes and how the girls are going crazy from peer pressure bec of so much learning ,you can be sure she would say,this is not what i meant!, yiddisha kids need a warm place filled with middos toves and yiri shumiam,we need to learn derech eretz...yes we need to learn the basics but its going way to far!if my daughter gets an 80 ,she has to be called in to the princapals office ?let the kids go easy and pressure free, and for the mothers who have a prob having no pressure let them figure it out , maybe send her kids to college, the parants became so pressured from other schools that they ask for a higher level,it became a whole movement, the more learning ,the more tests the healthier its for the girl, parants come to your sensces,who are you trying to fool?think hard what happens to everything when the girls leave school? what good does it do for them?

136

 Aug 02, 2017 at 06:16 PM hernoor Says:

If Mr. and Mrs. Klein are reading the comments, I wish to ask mechila for comments about Malky. I always try not to hurt people, but this time I made a huge mistake. There was no purpose in my comments regarding Malky.
I have contacted VIN numerous times , through two different email addresses ( in case they missed one) quite a number of times, yesterday and today, and yet they have still (at the time of this writing) failed to delete those comments as I requested. I understand Malky was in a sad place because of her failures in school and I should not have made those comments about her. I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me.

I also wish to thank you Mr. and Mrs. Klein for bringing attention to the fact that so many children in our community are suffering and the system is only geared for those who can memorize tons of ( mostly irrelevant) information easily and is incredibly disadvantaged towards those who have learning disabilities and even those who don't but are simply not cut out for memorizing ridiculous amounts data. Malky has not died in vain because you have bought up this painful issue that is causing tremendous pain and lasting emotional issues to so many, perhaps I can even say as much as 40% of our youth. So many students hide their pain and frustration under a mask as they feel helpless under a system that is ignoring their strengths and talents that Hashem endowed them with. May Malky's death be the catalyst for a revolution in our schools so that every student will get a chance to develop themselves to be able to lead emotionally healthy and happy lives.

137

 Aug 04, 2017 at 10:32 AM AWoman_outside_bklyn Says:

Reply to #1  
Boreparker26 Says:

As much as I try to appreciate these long idealistic speeches full of good intent and special messages plus about the great organizations that there are out there, the facts remain facts. My daughter was rejected, thrown out, rejected again by too many of our top reputation schools. No one was there to help, I went from organization to organization, from Rav to Rav. Kept on getting the same answers - other parents complained, teachers can't handle her lack of zitzfleish, her marks are not so great... She was rejected by various heimishe camps. She feels and she knows the rejection. Why? She had some issues with sitting through long classes (ADHD). She's a good tzniusdike girl with amazing middos and tons of talent - she just doesn't have the best grades. We worked with therapists, mechanchim and tutors. We spent thousands on outside help to ensure that she's able to function as a regular student. Every single conversation with the school was an uphill battle - as if they are doing us a favor by listening to what we have to say. When things got really bad at high school, we begged them - please do not throw her out, we don't want her to feel the rejection, we'll find her a new school but don't throw her out. She was thrown out by the principal the next day. She'll remember that for life. I'm sorry, these articles are nice, but what's going on out there is a lot worse than it sounds. Please don't defend our mosdos or talk about great organizations. It's hurtful to families like mine.

You said it first here, and I couldn't agree more. While we remain a community fixated on "perfection", we are automatically excluding so many. In the Yeshivishe community there is tremendous academic stress on the girls because they are all expected to have good paying careers to support their husbands in kollel. In the case of my daughter, problems began for her in her BY. Although it was run by a wonderful principal, he made one enormous mistake in setting up one class that was tracked as "the slow class". The girls were earmarked as losers by the others in their grade. It hurt my daughter tremendously, and from then on, she saw herself as "dumb". She was thisfar from dumping it all in HS, and thankfully, her seminary (a BY type that emphasized discussion instead of textual learning and which sadly no longer exists) was open minded and answered many of her questions. Attempts to create "B' level yeshivas have largely failed because of the stigma our kehillahs have created by openly admitting that not all boys are potential Rosh HaYeshivas.

138

 Aug 04, 2017 at 05:22 PM Ina Says:

Reply to #137  
AWoman_outside_bklyn Says:

You said it first here, and I couldn't agree more. While we remain a community fixated on "perfection", we are automatically excluding so many. In the Yeshivishe community there is tremendous academic stress on the girls because they are all expected to have good paying careers to support their husbands in kollel. In the case of my daughter, problems began for her in her BY. Although it was run by a wonderful principal, he made one enormous mistake in setting up one class that was tracked as "the slow class". The girls were earmarked as losers by the others in their grade. It hurt my daughter tremendously, and from then on, she saw herself as "dumb". She was thisfar from dumping it all in HS, and thankfully, her seminary (a BY type that emphasized discussion instead of textual learning and which sadly no longer exists) was open minded and answered many of her questions. Attempts to create "B' level yeshivas have largely failed because of the stigma our kehillahs have created by openly admitting that not all boys are potential Rosh HaYeshivas.

You say it so well. May I ask what you think is the answer to this insanity? What is the best way to resolve a situation that is clearly out of hand?

139

 Aug 06, 2017 at 08:35 AM edward1 Says:

With all due respect to all those that feel that students would "fit in" even with poor grades. It is simply not true in most instances. I work in a school that has the policy that " if we accepted him/her, he/she is now our problem". I see all the time that students who don't do well academically have social/ behavioral issues also. Obviously this is not true 100% of the time, but probably 90%. The answer to say that we should just leave them be, keep them in mainstreamed classes, is not the solution.

140

 Aug 06, 2017 at 11:47 AM Ina Says:

Reply to #139  
edward1 Says:

With all due respect to all those that feel that students would "fit in" even with poor grades. It is simply not true in most instances. I work in a school that has the policy that " if we accepted him/her, he/she is now our problem". I see all the time that students who don't do well academically have social/ behavioral issues also. Obviously this is not true 100% of the time, but probably 90%. The answer to say that we should just leave them be, keep them in mainstreamed classes, is not the solution.

edward1, why do I not believe you work in a school?.... Yes, it is the school's problem to figure out how to actually educate all of the children! Anything less, is not a Yiddishe chinuch, and this of course, is what people are paying for!

141

 Aug 06, 2017 at 09:43 PM edward1 Says:

Reply to #140  
Ina Says:

edward1, why do I not believe you work in a school?.... Yes, it is the school's problem to figure out how to actually educate all of the children! Anything less, is not a Yiddishe chinuch, and this of course, is what people are paying for!

First of all, I do work in a school, in an educational capacity. Secondly, I never said that the school does not have a responsibility to those children. What I said was that the school is not the cause for the problem. In reality, our society is the problem. We can all be very righteous on Vos Iz Neias, but what would YOU do when the "problem child" is sitting next to your Tachshit? would you be so understanding when your precious little genius is getting 75s on tests because this child is disturbing the class? How about your child getting what you consider a substandard education so this child can feel good about himself? I do not know the answers to this problem, but it is unfair to place the blame solely on the schools. The few schools that I know that were very accomodating to such children were marginalized by most mainstream parents.

142

 Aug 06, 2017 at 10:47 PM edward1 Says:

Reply to #141  
edward1 Says:

First of all, I do work in a school, in an educational capacity. Secondly, I never said that the school does not have a responsibility to those children. What I said was that the school is not the cause for the problem. In reality, our society is the problem. We can all be very righteous on Vos Iz Neias, but what would YOU do when the "problem child" is sitting next to your Tachshit? would you be so understanding when your precious little genius is getting 75s on tests because this child is disturbing the class? How about your child getting what you consider a substandard education so this child can feel good about himself? I do not know the answers to this problem, but it is unfair to place the blame solely on the schools. The few schools that I know that were very accomodating to such children were marginalized by most mainstream parents.

Please remember, we can blame the schools, but the bottom line is that schools are a business. I don't mean that they have to pander to the highest bidder (which unfortunately many do), but rather they need to keep their parent body. I challenge any of you with truly mainstream children to honestly say that you would keep your child in a school which has a large population of "problem students". Remember, until the situation rights itself, that is what would happen, a few brave schools will accomidate such students, so the ratio would be very high. So, would you sacrifice what could possibly be your child's reputation to do what is right?

143

 Aug 07, 2017 at 07:08 AM Ina Says:

Reply to #142  
edward1 Says:

Please remember, we can blame the schools, but the bottom line is that schools are a business. I don't mean that they have to pander to the highest bidder (which unfortunately many do), but rather they need to keep their parent body. I challenge any of you with truly mainstream children to honestly say that you would keep your child in a school which has a large population of "problem students". Remember, until the situation rights itself, that is what would happen, a few brave schools will accomidate such students, so the ratio would be very high. So, would you sacrifice what could possibly be your child's reputation to do what is right?

edward I, I don't know whether to laugh or cry! You, and your ilk are what killed Malky and caused so much heartache for her parents. You, and your ilk continue doing so each and every day to children and parents like hers. You see, you are not an educator even if you are one of the many undeserved workers in our school system. Public school educates all the children. Certainly, we, the chosen people can find a way to do the same for our children deserve nothing less. Certainly, parents need to know they are leaving a generation who will follow in the footsteps of our ancestors. Don't we pride ourselves on every other worthwhile endeavor we are involved in?! You, edward I, need to become the solution or, step aside and let others who are true educators do the job!

144

 Aug 07, 2017 at 12:27 PM edward1 Says:

Please explain exactly what I said wrong. Will you allow Your child in a class that you consider to be substandard in any way? to create separate classes for such students wont work, as has been proven many times, due to the stigma of attending such classes. Again, I am talking as a generalization, not any specific child. Public school families, as a rule, are not as self concious about such issues. Solutions that work in public schools wont work in our school systems. It is true that there are things that can be implemented to help the situation, but all of them require cooperation between the school, student, and parent. Also as shallow as it sounds, they all require a tremendous amount of money. Who is paying for it. To say it is the schools responsibility is very nice, but then we will see all the articles about how high tuition is. The bottom line is it is unfair to compare the yeshiva system to the public school system. The schools are different, the studies are different, the parent bodies are different, and the students are different. The problems are truly there, and must be solved. But it is very much oversimplification to just blame the schools, and ignore society as a w

145

 Aug 07, 2017 at 05:21 PM Ina Says:

Reply to #144  
edward1 Says:

Please explain exactly what I said wrong. Will you allow Your child in a class that you consider to be substandard in any way? to create separate classes for such students wont work, as has been proven many times, due to the stigma of attending such classes. Again, I am talking as a generalization, not any specific child. Public school families, as a rule, are not as self concious about such issues. Solutions that work in public schools wont work in our school systems. It is true that there are things that can be implemented to help the situation, but all of them require cooperation between the school, student, and parent. Also as shallow as it sounds, they all require a tremendous amount of money. Who is paying for it. To say it is the schools responsibility is very nice, but then we will see all the articles about how high tuition is. The bottom line is it is unfair to compare the yeshiva system to the public school system. The schools are different, the studies are different, the parent bodies are different, and the students are different. The problems are truly there, and must be solved. But it is very much oversimplification to just blame the schools, and ignore society as a w

edward I, I think what you said wrong is that the schools are a business! And, here is the root of the problem. No school can be a business. It is like Judge Freier said, when we went to school, we sat in classrooms with failing students. It did not matter, and each of these students went on the marry and establish wonderful homes of their own. In fact, it is well known that many of these students have done better in life than the above average students. Every school needs to accept these students, and then each "business" will look alike. Let us also remember that most students are just average. Time to revamp the curriculum to cater to the average student. Judge Freier does indeed have a good suggestion. Let the above average students go out for extra classes and homework! edward I, ask yourself if you and your ilk will have a place in the World to Come. After what you have done and continue to do to His children. Here we have nothing less than the senseless murder of a young girl. Do you think the Ribbono Shel Olam will make room for you and your colleagues in the Olam H'Emes? I wonder....

146

 Aug 07, 2017 at 05:36 PM Ina Says:

Reply to #144  
edward1 Says:

Please explain exactly what I said wrong. Will you allow Your child in a class that you consider to be substandard in any way? to create separate classes for such students wont work, as has been proven many times, due to the stigma of attending such classes. Again, I am talking as a generalization, not any specific child. Public school families, as a rule, are not as self concious about such issues. Solutions that work in public schools wont work in our school systems. It is true that there are things that can be implemented to help the situation, but all of them require cooperation between the school, student, and parent. Also as shallow as it sounds, they all require a tremendous amount of money. Who is paying for it. To say it is the schools responsibility is very nice, but then we will see all the articles about how high tuition is. The bottom line is it is unfair to compare the yeshiva system to the public school system. The schools are different, the studies are different, the parent bodies are different, and the students are different. The problems are truly there, and must be solved. But it is very much oversimplification to just blame the schools, and ignore society as a w

edward I, I forgot. If this was your child, what would you have wanted done for her. I promise you, edward I, one day, it will be your child or your grandchild. You see, we all have these children. What will you say then?

147

 Aug 09, 2017 at 02:14 PM edward1 Says:

Reply to #145  
Ina Says:

edward I, I think what you said wrong is that the schools are a business! And, here is the root of the problem. No school can be a business. It is like Judge Freier said, when we went to school, we sat in classrooms with failing students. It did not matter, and each of these students went on the marry and establish wonderful homes of their own. In fact, it is well known that many of these students have done better in life than the above average students. Every school needs to accept these students, and then each "business" will look alike. Let us also remember that most students are just average. Time to revamp the curriculum to cater to the average student. Judge Freier does indeed have a good suggestion. Let the above average students go out for extra classes and homework! edward I, ask yourself if you and your ilk will have a place in the World to Come. After what you have done and continue to do to His children. Here we have nothing less than the senseless murder of a young girl. Do you think the Ribbono Shel Olam will make room for you and your colleagues in the Olam H'Emes? I wonder....

I agree with just about everything that you said. The only disagreement that I see between what you said and what I am saying is that the change has to start from our society being more inclusive. You can take a terrible story like just happened and use that to raise awareness, but until parents are willing to act also, well actions speak louder than words. As I have said, I know of 2 schools off the top of my head that by all standards are fine mainstream schools, frum and all the rest. They both have an open door policy, all jewish children deserve a jewish education, and they both are schools that no mainstream parents send to (unless their child is a "problem"). Right now, this is what will happen to probably any school that adopts such a policy.Schools educate students, they cannot educate the parents, especially if the children never enroll in the school! I apologise for using the term "business". I didn't mean it in the way that you obviously took it. And by the way, The "higher level" the school is, the harder it is to get in. Everybody wants to go there. That tells you something. People vote with their feet.

148

 Aug 09, 2017 at 02:21 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #145  
Ina Says:

edward I, I think what you said wrong is that the schools are a business! And, here is the root of the problem. No school can be a business. It is like Judge Freier said, when we went to school, we sat in classrooms with failing students. It did not matter, and each of these students went on the marry and establish wonderful homes of their own. In fact, it is well known that many of these students have done better in life than the above average students. Every school needs to accept these students, and then each "business" will look alike. Let us also remember that most students are just average. Time to revamp the curriculum to cater to the average student. Judge Freier does indeed have a good suggestion. Let the above average students go out for extra classes and homework! edward I, ask yourself if you and your ilk will have a place in the World to Come. After what you have done and continue to do to His children. Here we have nothing less than the senseless murder of a young girl. Do you think the Ribbono Shel Olam will make room for you and your colleagues in the Olam H'Emes? I wonder....

You are right that when we were younger we sat in classes with all types. It is not the schools that are more exclusive, it is the society. Please remember, when we were younger, there were very few labels. Now everyone has a label, ADD, ADHD, OCD, Aspergers, OTD (almost),etc. A lively child isn't a problem, but when we label him ADHD, suddenly he can't be with our children. In reality there is only one label that a child should have, and that is JEWISH! Until we can get over our addiction to labels, we can, and do, sort our children....and we start the cycle of blame!

149

 Aug 09, 2017 at 02:46 PM edward1 Says:

Reply to #146  
Ina Says:

edward I, I forgot. If this was your child, what would you have wanted done for her. I promise you, edward I, one day, it will be your child or your grandchild. You see, we all have these children. What will you say then?

First of all, I don't appreciate the "promise", It sounds like you are giving me a kllalah. I realize that it is just bitterness on your part, but please don't stoop to such levels. Also, you are part of the problem, they all ARE our children, not theirs. When everyone understands that, then we may be on the way to solving the problem.

150

 Aug 09, 2017 at 04:21 PM Ina Says:

Reply to #149  
edward1 Says:

First of all, I don't appreciate the "promise", It sounds like you are giving me a kllalah. I realize that it is just bitterness on your part, but please don't stoop to such levels. Also, you are part of the problem, they all ARE our children, not theirs. When everyone understands that, then we may be on the way to solving the problem.

edward I, I am a realist and am certainly not trying to place a curse on you. But, you didn't answer the question. What will you do when it is in your own backyard? We all have these children. The labels have infiltrated into just about every family. Perhaps, the elitist society has not yet discovered it. However, I do expect more from those who are supposed to be educators. All schools need to be inclusive not exclusive and then they will all look the same. Exclusive parents will find it does not pay to move a child to another school because they are all the same. No child or parent should ever find themselves in Malky's predicament! I wish you much nachas from all your children.

151

 Aug 10, 2017 at 03:32 PM edward1 Says:

Reply to #150  
Ina Says:

edward I, I am a realist and am certainly not trying to place a curse on you. But, you didn't answer the question. What will you do when it is in your own backyard? We all have these children. The labels have infiltrated into just about every family. Perhaps, the elitist society has not yet discovered it. However, I do expect more from those who are supposed to be educators. All schools need to be inclusive not exclusive and then they will all look the same. Exclusive parents will find it does not pay to move a child to another school because they are all the same. No child or parent should ever find themselves in Malky's predicament! I wish you much nachas from all your children.

Unfortunately we do not have a central school system. If the current schools all band together to be all inclusive, then someone will open another. We do not have a central governing body controlling such things. Also, remember, the outside influences are not the same as they were years ago. What do you do when someone brings drugs to school? What do you do when someone repeatedly make passes at other students? Now, I understand that these are extreme examples, but once the door is open to removing some kids for negative influences it is just a matter of where you draw the line. Again, this goes back to no central governing body. It is the reality, not a good one, but reality nonetheless. Until society as a whole can agree to universal leadership, this wont happen. Please don't blame this only on the most right wing schools. The left wing and centerist communities are just as inflexable with what they consider guidelines. To give an examle that I heard from the pricipal of a promanent left wing MO school. She was decrying the number of abortions in her high school the prior year. When I asked what the school did about it, the answer was nothing. It was on the students own time so

152

 Aug 10, 2017 at 03:49 PM Continued Says:

Reply to #150  
Ina Says:

edward I, I am a realist and am certainly not trying to place a curse on you. But, you didn't answer the question. What will you do when it is in your own backyard? We all have these children. The labels have infiltrated into just about every family. Perhaps, the elitist society has not yet discovered it. However, I do expect more from those who are supposed to be educators. All schools need to be inclusive not exclusive and then they will all look the same. Exclusive parents will find it does not pay to move a child to another school because they are all the same. No child or parent should ever find themselves in Malky's predicament! I wish you much nachas from all your children.

can do what they want. Most right wing schools and parents would be appalled by such behavior and attitude. I can understand if you want to say to educate the students about such behavior, but I still wouldn't want my children to be exposed to such behavior without marginalizing such students. But then we would be defeating the purpose of universal school acceptance policies. Please don't point to a single story and say " but that was not the case by so and so" . Remember, you are trying to solve a more global issue by making sweeping changes. This would solve the issue with a "Malky Klein" , but perhaps create a different "Malky Klein" by not having a school that has a policy that allows for such behavior without consequence. I, for one, can not agree to the lowest standard acceptance policy. 50 years ago secular society frowned on open examples of low moral behavior. Today, everyone is free to do what they want, and I have to accept it. For that it would be cheaper to send our children to public school and hire a religious studies teacher after school. Again, once you accept the need for a line, the argument just becomes where to draw it. If so, what makes your criteria correct?

153

 Aug 10, 2017 at 09:19 PM Ina Says:

Reply to #152  
Continued Says:

can do what they want. Most right wing schools and parents would be appalled by such behavior and attitude. I can understand if you want to say to educate the students about such behavior, but I still wouldn't want my children to be exposed to such behavior without marginalizing such students. But then we would be defeating the purpose of universal school acceptance policies. Please don't point to a single story and say " but that was not the case by so and so" . Remember, you are trying to solve a more global issue by making sweeping changes. This would solve the issue with a "Malky Klein" , but perhaps create a different "Malky Klein" by not having a school that has a policy that allows for such behavior without consequence. I, for one, can not agree to the lowest standard acceptance policy. 50 years ago secular society frowned on open examples of low moral behavior. Today, everyone is free to do what they want, and I have to accept it. For that it would be cheaper to send our children to public school and hire a religious studies teacher after school. Again, once you accept the need for a line, the argument just becomes where to draw it. If so, what makes your criteria correct?

edward I, we were just starting to understand each other and get along, and there you go and ruin it all! You are mixing apples and oranges. I am not talking about children who have given notice that they are not capable of living our lifestyle. This issue is about school inclusiveness as it concerns learning disabled children. Children who will shine once school is done with. It is common knowledge, edward I, that so many of the very smart children are not the ones who succeed the most. In fact, many learning disabled children have succeeded in building lives that surprises the best of us. This is what is at the heart of the Malky Klein tragedy. Now, edward I, for your heartfelt answer: What would you have wanted for a child in your own family who is learning disabled, who could succeed with extra help? Why is it so difficult for "educators" such as yourself, and your ilk, to respond honestly to the issues?

154

 Aug 11, 2017 at 07:43 AM edward1 Says:

Reply to #153  
Ina Says:

edward I, we were just starting to understand each other and get along, and there you go and ruin it all! You are mixing apples and oranges. I am not talking about children who have given notice that they are not capable of living our lifestyle. This issue is about school inclusiveness as it concerns learning disabled children. Children who will shine once school is done with. It is common knowledge, edward I, that so many of the very smart children are not the ones who succeed the most. In fact, many learning disabled children have succeeded in building lives that surprises the best of us. This is what is at the heart of the Malky Klein tragedy. Now, edward I, for your heartfelt answer: What would you have wanted for a child in your own family who is learning disabled, who could succeed with extra help? Why is it so difficult for "educators" such as yourself, and your ilk, to respond honestly to the issues?

You are correct. If a child could succeed in a mainstream class with additional help, and he/she is a nice acceptably behaved child, there should be no justification not to accept him/her. The only thing that has to be understood is that many times the parents and child are not on the same page as far as putting in the extra time and effort. The parents want what they deem the best for the child, and try to bend their child to fit the mold of the type of school they want. The child, on the other hand, doesnt want to spend his after hours at tutors etc, and be pulled out of class forr remedial work.It is important that everyone be on the same page going in IE the parents, child, and school. On a personal note I have a child with aspergers and am going through the school acceptance horrors right now. So yes, I do understand!

155

 Aug 11, 2017 at 10:46 AM Ina Says:

Reply to #154  
edward1 Says:

You are correct. If a child could succeed in a mainstream class with additional help, and he/she is a nice acceptably behaved child, there should be no justification not to accept him/her. The only thing that has to be understood is that many times the parents and child are not on the same page as far as putting in the extra time and effort. The parents want what they deem the best for the child, and try to bend their child to fit the mold of the type of school they want. The child, on the other hand, doesnt want to spend his after hours at tutors etc, and be pulled out of class forr remedial work.It is important that everyone be on the same page going in IE the parents, child, and school. On a personal note I have a child with aspergers and am going through the school acceptance horrors right now. So yes, I do understand!

edward I, I am sorry your too are struggling with this system of exclusion. You see, this either does or will touch everyone at some point. Every one of us seems to have a child who needs some sort of help. Malky was such a child. She was willing to put in the work, with the full support of her parents. And, yet she was excluded! There is no justification for this. I do have to wonder if those who run our schools like a "business" will have a place in the Olam Ha'emes. After all, the Ribbono Shel Olam does not deal with His children the way these "educators" are dealing with them and it cannot go down well for them. Edward I, I hope you will find a good placement for your child, and I wish you much nachas from all your children.

156

 Aug 11, 2017 at 11:06 AM edward1 Says:

Reply to #155  
Ina Says:

edward I, I am sorry your too are struggling with this system of exclusion. You see, this either does or will touch everyone at some point. Every one of us seems to have a child who needs some sort of help. Malky was such a child. She was willing to put in the work, with the full support of her parents. And, yet she was excluded! There is no justification for this. I do have to wonder if those who run our schools like a "business" will have a place in the Olam Ha'emes. After all, the Ribbono Shel Olam does not deal with His children the way these "educators" are dealing with them and it cannot go down well for them. Edward I, I hope you will find a good placement for your child, and I wish you much nachas from all your children.

Thank you for your wishes. The bottom line is all that I am saying is that there is no easy solution. Obviously a solution must be found, and it will mean compromises on all sides.

157

 Aug 17, 2017 at 11:47 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #108  
DOVE1 Says:

How can you ruin such a beautiful piece with bringing a vort from Kook which all Gedoilim said he is טמא?

R Reuvain Bengis the head of the eida said, when I was in Voloshin, R Kook was known as the tzadik and I was known as the Goan, when I came to Yerushalaim I was known as the tzadik and R Kook was known as the goan, they could take his tzidkus away from him, but not his goanis.

158

 Aug 17, 2017 at 11:49 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #112  
Anonymous Says:

You are 100% right!!! In my family we have all types & where there are some that aren't accepting of all the different types in our family, we have one that does whether they are OTD, gay, apikores, MO, reform...& she married a satmar dayan who also accepts all & i personally think thats what is wanted by hashem. In fact, if you ask her, shed say thats the only way to bring them around & I've seen her do so at her young age. Therefore, I think the schools need to keep every child in their school so that we can educate them & bring them closer to yidishkiet

one of these is not like the other, how can you link Modern Orthodox, some of who are yeraim and shelamim to reshayim or tinokai shenishba at best?

159

 Aug 17, 2017 at 12:12 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #151  
edward1 Says:

Unfortunately we do not have a central school system. If the current schools all band together to be all inclusive, then someone will open another. We do not have a central governing body controlling such things. Also, remember, the outside influences are not the same as they were years ago. What do you do when someone brings drugs to school? What do you do when someone repeatedly make passes at other students? Now, I understand that these are extreme examples, but once the door is open to removing some kids for negative influences it is just a matter of where you draw the line. Again, this goes back to no central governing body. It is the reality, not a good one, but reality nonetheless. Until society as a whole can agree to universal leadership, this wont happen. Please don't blame this only on the most right wing schools. The left wing and centerist communities are just as inflexable with what they consider guidelines. To give an examle that I heard from the pricipal of a promanent left wing MO school. She was decrying the number of abortions in her high school the prior year. When I asked what the school did about it, the answer was nothing. It was on the students own time so

naming the school in this case would be much more productive both on a stoping abortion level, and on lessining sinas chinam. if your statement is true!

160

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