“ I cry ! Have ordered lunch in the past from him, never liked the look from this new owner. Allways had this thinking in my head that who knows if he cares about kashrus. I guess I was rite. ”

“ Does anyone know who the rav hamachshir was? ”

“ keep on raising the price of kosher meat, and overcharging....what do you expect? ”

“ keep on raising the price of kosher meat, and overcharging....what do you expect? ”

“ I thought after the Monsey scandal that Mashgichim were supposed to be the only ones with keys to the stockrooms etc. What happened? ”

“ I cry ! Have ordered lunch in the past from him, never liked the look from this new owner. Allways had this thinking in my head that who knows if he cares about kashrus. I guess I was rite. ”

“ I think that we as Jews should get the message, and I think it’s time for some soul searching, and to rethink the way we look at eating out in restaurants in general, including the huge line of junk food sold in groceries regardless of it’s certification. ”

“ Is the problem only with franks or also with the shwarma? ”

“ Ohh, so you're defending selling non kosher meats?

#1) you're an idiot
#2) his markup was much more then any kosher restaurant, so there ya go... ”

“ Does this store have any connection to Schwarma King in Monticello? ”

“ keep on raising the price of kosher meat, and overcharging....what do you expect? ”

“ Is the problem only with franks or also with the shwarma? ”

“
Its not worth a reply to this non sence ”

“ That works only when you have unity in hashgachos. Every Tom, Dick and Harry gives a hashgacha, many having no clue as to how to run and or administer a kosher program.

Part of the problem lies with the consumers because they accept and tolerate this proliferation in hashgachos. "Out of town" where there is one Va'ad giving hashgachos you rarely hear of these scandals. ”

“ keep on raising the price of kosher meat, and overcharging....what do you expect? ”

“ The problem is the trust. lol ”

“ #1) really?
#2)so, I guess you ate there....so who's the idiot now? ”

“ When you only have one Hashgacha in town there are no checks and balances & they cover everything up. So of course there are no scandals. ”

“ Who gave the hechsher?? ”

“ Sorry, let me explain. In a community were everyone stands behind a Va'ad, they know the people giving the hashgacha. It is not just a certificate on the wall. The hashgacha is part of the fabric of the community. The Rabanim who oversee the Va'ad are the same people educating their children and are also paskining their shailos.

There is definitely checks and balances. Also, many of these Va'ads are part of the net work of the national hashgachos. In other words they supply or work with the mashgichim who go off to little towns across the US to supervise and certify plants who make the components of the food we eat. So in short you are eating food that has ingredients certified by some of these local Va'ads or certified by their masgichim.

The bottom line is the checks and balances on these Va'ads are their community's values and oversight. ”

“ My eating there doesn't make me and idiot, I didn't choose to eat non kosher food.

A idiot is someone who posts silly comments.

P.S. And that would be a good reason for people (like you who don't understand why kosher meat is more expensive) to buy treif, not a restaurant who is anywaya making the same much profit per item as non kosher restaurants. ”

“ That works only when you have unity in hashgachos. Every Tom, Dick and Harry gives a hashgacha, many having no clue as to how to run and or administer a kosher program.

Part of the problem lies with the consumers because they accept and tolerate this proliferation in hashgachos. "Out of town" where there is one Va'ad giving hashgachos you rarely hear of these scandals. ”

“ Who gave the hechsher?? ”

“ One more point. Way too many mashgichim are horribly underpaid. This is a major problem.
How does anyone expect quality, reliable employees for what so many pay a mashgiach today?
Remember, you want a mashgiach who is married with children, you need to pay him enough to support that family and pay schar limud to put his kids in yeshiva.

If we say, "OY! That much?" Then we may as well give up on American kashrus.

Personally, *** I *** would not trust the work of any mashgiach who is paid only $13 or $14 /hour.

If you want a mashgiach who is reliable, does his job, and is trustworthy, you must pay him a real salary and benefits. He must have medical coverage for his family, pay his mortgage, buy food and clothing, and tuition.

Would YOU trust someone who has to go into debt to pay for food/clothing, etc.,?
You can't!
I am not saying there are no reliable but underpaid mashgichim. That would be slapping some dedicated people in the face. I am saying that TODAY, we must pay better.

Yes, this will mean you pay more for your food! Suck it up.

Would you want to pay $1.00 less on your lunch, but know that a mashgiach had to go to a gemach to clothe his family? If you said, "Yes," you should be ashamed of yourself.

We need to update our thinking on compensating mashgichim. ”

“ keep on raising the price of kosher meat, and overcharging....what do you expect? ”

“ One more point. Way too many mashgichim are horribly underpaid. This is a major problem.
How does anyone expect quality, reliable employees for what so many pay a mashgiach today?
Remember, you want a mashgiach who is married with children, you need to pay him enough to support that family and pay schar limud to put his kids in yeshiva.

If we say, "OY! That much?" Then we may as well give up on American kashrus.

Personally, *** I *** would not trust the work of any mashgiach who is paid only $13 or $14 /hour.

If you want a mashgiach who is reliable, does his job, and is trustworthy, you must pay him a real salary and benefits. He must have medical coverage for his family, pay his mortgage, buy food and clothing, and tuition.

Would YOU trust someone who has to go into debt to pay for food/clothing, etc.,?
You can't!
I am not saying there are no reliable but underpaid mashgichim. That would be slapping some dedicated people in the face. I am saying that TODAY, we must pay better.

Yes, this will mean you pay more for your food! Suck it up.

Would you want to pay $1.00 less on your lunch, but know that a mashgiach had to go to a gemach to clothe his family? If you said, "Yes," you should be ashamed of yourself.

We need to update our thinking on compensating mashgichim. ”

“ I thought after the Monsey scandal that Mashgichim were supposed to be the only ones with keys to the stockrooms etc. What happened? ”

“ you don't have to buy it-eat vegetables- how dare you offer this sick comment as an excuse. No Jew has any business eating so called Hot Dogs, anyway (kosher or Not) that is a seperate issue because they are junk that over time will kill you worse than cigarettes. ”

“ my klall was, is eat only where i know the proprietor personnally as a yirei shomaimthen hechser from rav or organization i trust..and if i am in horrai arrarot and dont know then dont eat...no, we are not in the jungle without food . there is plenty to eat ”

“ The local trusted vaads have problems too.

I was sitting in the office with the "Head" rov of a trusted local vaad. He is a very good, man, a talmid chuchom and yiras shomayim.

But, he also has a problem. He believes in giving tzedaka.

Men come to him, because he is also the rov in a local shul, new people in town, and say, "Rabbi, help me. I lost my job, and do not know where to get another one." , or "Rabbi, help me. I lost all my money in a divorce"... or "I lost my money in Vegas, I had a gambling problem. I cost me my self respect, but I went to GA and now I know better."

The stories are very varied, but always the same bottom line. They are looking for a handout. But, the rabbi knows, that once he hands out money, it will be a weekly hit. The man will come back every week on his "rounds" expecting that handout.

So, being a really good man, he wants to really "HELP" the man.
How do you help a broke, almost or really homeless man, you help him get a job.

We all agree that is the best way to help someone; right?
Nobody disagrees with that.

But, who can he call to give this guy work? He can't give him references, not honestly, so he can't call any companies he knows, or baal habatim, and recommend this poor man as an employee.

So, after seeing this man daven and put on tefillin for a few days, and he tells a good story about how he is a frum man, he thinks, "I will hire him myself!" I will have him be a mashgiach."

So he picks up the phone, and places the call to his "kashrus supervisor" and says, "Rabbi ________, I have a new mashgiach for you. He needs immediate work. Can you find a place for him where he can be trained on the job?"

So, here we have a good, local vaad, headed by a really good, honest Rov, with a good supervisor, everyone meaning well, but in a period of 3 years they have hired 5 or 6 total loosers who are about as trustworthy as a paper boot in the rain.
You wind up with a mashgiach who does not have any real training.
You wind up with a mashgiach who is easily intimidated by the restaurant owner.
You wind up with a mashgiach who will rush through a case of lettuce in 30 minutes, because the owner told him the last mashgiach did. He does not know better. (by the way, it takes about 90 minutes, under good conditions, to soak, wash and unspect one case of average lettuce.)

You wind up with a mashgiach who does not know what he is looking at when a shipment shows up. A man who does not have the confidence to say, "Mr, Owner, let me see that BEFORE you put it away. Let me see the packing slip. One, minutes, I need to phone the rabbi and verify that this is okay."
He sees the look of anger on the owner's face, and folds. It is a game I have seen played out.

So, don't assume the "Local Vaad" is any better than the national organization. ”

“ Doesn't matter who the rav hamachshir is (well, not that much), what matters is what we klal yisrael will do to the boss.... ”

“ Mr. Supervisor,

You should get out of the hashgachah business because you're kofer in Torah and Chazal. ”

“ How come you "never liked the look of him"? Because he wasn't from "unzere"?
I ate there a few times in the summer* and had some conversations with him. He came across as a decent yid.
*(If the allegations are true, I'm going to assume "kan nimtza, kan haya" - now it was found, now is when it occured. Maybe the current economic pressures caused him to do unfortunate drastic actions) ”

“ As the owner of a restaurant I cannot understand how he even thought of getting away with it.
Unless the Rav Hamachsir never steps in to the store, how does this happen. From the pictures I've seen, he had clearly labeled non-kosher franks in his fridge. He made no attempt to hide it or sneak it in. Its obvious that he was comfortable enough knowing that the rav hamachshir will not step in.
As for a mashgiach temidi, my rav hamachshir has demanded that cameras be installed in all areas of the store, with the rav having 24/7 remote access. In case of any questions, the video can be reviewed. This solution is a lot cheaper and reliable than a mashgiach temidi.
I also believe that the suppliers have an achraios/responsibility to be involved. If a customer stops buying franks, and you see he's still selling, the rav hamachshir should be notified to inspect the source.
Once again the solution does not lay ar the ruv's feet, it needs to be every consumer's responsibility.
If you see something, say something. I recall driving by a meat restaurant once and saw in the garbage boxes from a brand that was not accepted by the rav giving hashgocha on the store. I called the mashgiach and told him about it. End of the story was that the store bought from a butcher and not direct, and the butcher just used the boxes but put the "other" meat in it. The Rav was very thankful that I called.
I also recall a story where someone walked in to the store asking about the hashgocho. After showing him the letter from the Rav, he picked up the phone and called the Rav to inquire if he indeed gave hashgocho and when he last visited the store.
What is needed is log sheet similar to one found in elevators, requiring the rav to sign everytime he visits the store. This will put pressure on the lazy mashgichim to either be responsible or get out of the business. (GD) ”

“ As the owner of a restaurant I cannot understand how he even thought of getting away with it.
Unless the Rav Hamachsir never steps in to the store, how does this happen. From the pictures I've seen, he had clearly labeled non-kosher franks in his fridge. He made no attempt to hide it or sneak it in. Its obvious that he was comfortable enough knowing that the rav hamachshir will not step in.
As for a mashgiach temidi, my rav hamachshir has demanded that cameras be installed in all areas of the store, with the rav having 24/7 remote access. In case of any questions, the video can be reviewed. This solution is a lot cheaper and reliable than a mashgiach temidi.
I also believe that the suppliers have an achraios/responsibility to be involved. If a customer stops buying franks, and you see he's still selling, the rav hamachshir should be notified to inspect the source.
Once again the solution does not lay ar the ruv's feet, it needs to be every consumer's responsibility.
If you see something, say something. I recall driving by a meat restaurant once and saw in the garbage boxes from a brand that was not accepted by the rav giving hashgocha on the store. I called the mashgiach and told him about it. End of the story was that the store bought from a butcher and not direct, and the butcher just used the boxes but put the "other" meat in it. The Rav was very thankful that I called.
I also recall a story where someone walked in to the store asking about the hashgocho. After showing him the letter from the Rav, he picked up the phone and called the Rav to inquire if he indeed gave hashgocho and when he last visited the store.
What is needed is log sheet similar to one found in elevators, requiring the rav to sign everytime he visits the store. This will put pressure on the lazy mashgichim to either be responsible or get out of the business. (GD) ”

“ How come you "never liked the look of him"? Because he wasn't from "unzere"?
I ate there a few times in the summer* and had some conversations with him. He came across as a decent yid.
*(If the allegations are true, I'm going to assume "kan nimtza, kan haya" - now it was found, now is when it occured. Maybe the current economic pressures caused him to do unfortunate drastic actions) ”

“ As the owner of a restaurant I cannot understand how he even thought of getting away with it.
Unless the Rav Hamachsir never steps in to the store, how does this happen. From the pictures I've seen, he had clearly labeled non-kosher franks in his fridge. He made no attempt to hide it or sneak it in. Its obvious that he was comfortable enough knowing that the rav hamachshir will not step in.
As for a mashgiach temidi, my rav hamachshir has demanded that cameras be installed in all areas of the store, with the rav having 24/7 remote access. In case of any questions, the video can be reviewed. This solution is a lot cheaper and reliable than a mashgiach temidi.
I also believe that the suppliers have an achraios/responsibility to be involved. If a customer stops buying franks, and you see he's still selling, the rav hamachshir should be notified to inspect the source.
Once again the solution does not lay ar the ruv's feet, it needs to be every consumer's responsibility.
If you see something, say something. I recall driving by a meat restaurant once and saw in the garbage boxes from a brand that was not accepted by the rav giving hashgocha on the store. I called the mashgiach and told him about it. End of the story was that the store bought from a butcher and not direct, and the butcher just used the boxes but put the "other" meat in it. The Rav was very thankful that I called.
I also recall a story where someone walked in to the store asking about the hashgocho. After showing him the letter from the Rav, he picked up the phone and called the Rav to inquire if he indeed gave hashgocho and when he last visited the store.
What is needed is log sheet similar to one found in elevators, requiring the rav to sign everytime he visits the store. This will put pressure on the lazy mashgichim to either be responsible or get out of the business. (GD) ”

“ So please explain why on these message boards the people from the smaller communities write that the Rabbonim seem to be able to cover up for the sexual predators within their midsts ? There is no proper oversight when there is only one game in town. ”

“ I once spoke to an old well-respected Baal Machshir and he told me that "a hechsher helps only if the owner really wants it to be kosher, otherwise even the best hechsher is meaningless."
In essence what he said is that a good hechsher starts with an honest owner who is committed to Kashrus. Even then you need all the possible safeguards to avoid potential pitfalls but it is clearly impossible to safeguard against willful premeditated deceit.
So before you eat anywhere first KNOW the owner then look at the Hashguche. ”

“ You are correct about many things. But... the cameras can be gotten around. The camera is only good with a reliable, honest owner. But, anyone who is creative and wants to beat the system, can, and this leads to temptation.

I know of a case (told to me by a supervisor from another hashgach which is stopping the reliance on cameras) where the owner had a variety of techniques to smuggle treif meat into the place right under the cameras.

I will not explain here, as there is no reason to teach how to do this to newbies who may read this, but trust me, there are ways to both do some stuff off the camera, and also even right on camera have all appear to be kosher, while actual treif meat is brought in from the outside right past the cameras.

These are the simplest, and now that I write this everyone should know to correct for this:
One place was caught, after he cheated for almost a year. The rav hamachshir noticed that one employee appeared slimmer, like a skinny man wearing clothing that is large on him when he left at the end of his shift, but did not look that skinny when he came in. It seemed that every day, he would stop at a treif market, and pick up a treif brisket, or other slab-type, meat, like a giant steak, which could be cut into 20 steak portions, etc.,, and carry it into the place wrapped in plastic, under his white chef's jacket! He used one of those wide back-brace type of belts, that you see many people wear at work to help support the steak.

He also would have this same employee, who was obviously in it, carry in some cases of products at the same time as the delivery from a certain, very well known kosher meat perveyor. The cases he was brining in looked just like those the kosher guy was carrying in, on the same type of hand truck. On the video, it looked like he was just helping the driver bring the meat in to stop him from getting a ticket. Meanwhile, those cases where coming from the owner's van 2 spaces away. All looked kosher on video. He only caught that, when he decided to check on why the guy looked too skinny at the end of the day, and had someone sit outside the place in his car, reading a book and talking on his cell phone. He saw the guy come in fat in the AM. He saw him come back when the dilivery arrived and go to the van and bring in those 5 cases on the hand truck, at the same time as the delivery from the real kosher truck. He filmed it all from his cell phone.

There are ways to beat the cameras.

I know a Mashgiach Temidi is very expensive. You know it is. I know it is.
Yes, I know with a mashgiach temidi you have no choice. You MUST raise prices.
But, it is the ONLY way to really trust the food.

Mashgiach temidi is a real need, together with his having the keys to the place and to the refrigerator/freezer locks. ”

“ How can you cover up for such a story I spoke to a witness who saw him opening up a pack of non kosher franks ”

“ If the mashgichim would be instructed to waste less time on lettuce (which we have been eating for centuries without being insanely crazy about bugs we can not see) maybe the mashgichim would have the time do their jobs properly.

How about a continuing education program for mashgichim? Wait, that won't work because we can't agree what is glatt let alone what is kosher.

Oy! ”

“ I live in an out-of-town community where there is no "restaurant culture." So, I got used to eating everything at home. Even my husband worked as a volunteer mashgiach for one of the local caterers and afterward refused to attend any event where he was serving.

It does not matter how "frum" the community is. Years ago there was a caterer in Jerusalem who provided "kishka" to all the haredim, then it was discovered that he was buying camel kishka from Arabs. ”

“ WHo are you kidding? WHo is going to be a yotzie v'nichnas at 2:30AM!! Normal people are sleeping. You can bring in boar heads and eel skins at 2 in the morning and no one is there to check. THe whole hashgacha business in the USA is phoney. If you think I am cyncial, jsut stop what you are doing and start counting up all the stories over the past 5 years. You have a slimball magid shiur peddeling treif meat, etc. etc. THis religion is fast falling apart as people are placing more emphasis on gashmius, rather than belief in the Rebbono SHel Olom. If one belived that the Rebbono shel olom will provide his needs, he would not have to resort to selling treife meat. It is these so called shomrei shabos people you have to watch out for. THe monsey scandal proves it. ”

“ WHo are you kidding? WHo is going to be a yotzie v'nichnas at 2:30AM!! Normal people are sleeping. You can bring in boar heads and eel skins at 2 in the morning and no one is there to check. THe whole hashgacha business in the USA is phoney. If you think I am cyncial, jsut stop what you are doing and start counting up all the stories over the past 5 years. You have a slimball magid shiur peddeling treif meat, etc. etc. THis religion is fast falling apart as people are placing more emphasis on gashmius, rather than belief in the Rebbono SHel Olom. If one belived that the Rebbono shel olom will provide his needs, he would not have to resort to selling treife meat. It is these so called shomrei shabos people you have to watch out for. THe monsey scandal proves it. ”

“ oh no not again! ”

“ WHo are you kidding? WHo is going to be a yotzie v'nichnas at 2:30AM!! Normal people are sleeping. You can bring in boar heads and eel skins at 2 in the morning and no one is there to check. THe whole hashgacha business in the USA is phoney. If you think I am cyncial, jsut stop what you are doing and start counting up all the stories over the past 5 years. You have a slimball magid shiur peddeling treif meat, etc. etc. THis religion is fast falling apart as people are placing more emphasis on gashmius, rather than belief in the Rebbono SHel Olom. If one belived that the Rebbono shel olom will provide his needs, he would not have to resort to selling treife meat. It is these so called shomrei shabos people you have to watch out for. THe monsey scandal proves it. ”

“ Gee VIN! Thanks for the update. We should all feel better now because this store sent a brand new shaigetz to buy franks. There is NO chance that a store who does something so irresponsible upkeeps kosher standards at all times.

Tartikov Ruv has a lot to answer for. ”

“ If its not true as they say how come I have tumtum halev? ”

“ excuse me rabbi babad?
since when is it allowed for an establishment to go next door and buy food supplies?

this is the first defense rule? the stores should only be able to pruchase form a wholesaler and this way everything can be verfiied via invoices.

if you allow any purchase to happen at any store via any employee shlichos you are asking for trouble and lowering the standard of your hecsher?

oNCE again RABBI BABAD - what are your mashgichim doing??? what are your rules????? ”

“ That works only when you have unity in hashgachos. Every Tom, Dick and Harry gives a hashgacha, many having no clue as to how to run and or administer a kosher program.

Part of the problem lies with the consumers because they accept and tolerate this proliferation in hashgachos. "Out of town" where there is one Va'ad giving hashgachos you rarely hear of these scandals. ”

“ I cry ! Have ordered lunch in the past from him, never liked the look from this new owner. Allways had this thinking in my head that who knows if he cares about kashrus. I guess I was rite. ”

“ started from a humen error and is an isolated incident, no trief meat was ever sold at chesky's it is 100 ”

“ started from a humen error and is an isolated incident, no trief meat was ever sold at chesky's it is 100 ”

“ I guess we could see from here that YOU, the public, needs to be alert. WE can only do so much but we need YOU as well. ”

“ Since when is the KRM open at 3:00am???????
something doesn't smell Kosher. ”

“ This is what happend when Hasgacha is a business first, and other things second... or last. It's all about the benjamins. ”

“ Does this store have any connection to Schwarma King in Monticello? ”

“ This would not happen if the Rav Hamachshir would match the invoices to the sales.
It is a basic part of kashrus supervision. ”

“ these franks are only sold at big chain supermarkets according to their website. ”

“ Instead of spouting your stupidity and hatred of kashrus, why not think the facts are as we may be seeing them?

If they wanted to serve treif CVH, they could have gotten DOZENS of dogs.

They send a gruba sheygits out to get dogs. They should perhaps not have done that bind hindsite is 20/20.

WIth Si'yata Dishmaya it was BH caught and nothing happened. ”

“ How can we rely on anonymous "witnesses" on the internet who say that an establishment is treif? Is it kosher to bring down someone's business based on hearsay? ”

“ say good bye to this store...no yiras shomayim will ever eat here again...say goodbye to tartikov hechsher...hechsheiris became too much of a commercial business...giving hechsherim to just anyone who is willing to pay...we should organize an independent organization as volunteers (like may organizations we ka"h have)with yugeleit yirei shomayim should post their ratings on stores ,mashgichim and hechsheirim...enough with the michsholos...yidishe nefoshos should not be sacrificed by people who have in mind money. ”

“ here is some questions
1.what was the name of the store that the empployee purchased the treife franks?
2.If KRM is right around the corner how far did the employee go to purchase one package of franks?
3.how new is this employee is it the first time hewas sent out to purchase meat?
4. where was the mashgiach ???
dosent he have to account for all food coming in?
5.at wut point did they notice the mistake?it seems that a customer is the one who caught it not the mashiach not the store owner not the chef how do we know it wasn't served
6.if it wasn't served did it end up on the grill and treif up the establishment??
we need answers not excuses!!! ”

“ This new version of last night's story is FABRICATED to cover up what really happened. There was AT LEAST one opened, empty pack of hot dogs that had clearly been served to customers. Enough said.

I can't believe VIN is putting this cover-up out there.
”

“ Where there's smoke there's fire. If it stinks, something is rotten. Non-kosher franks in a "glatt" kosher establishment is an outrage under any circumstance, much more so in the middle of the night. An allegedly new non-Jewish employee is given the otherwise trustworthy mission of independently purchasing meat from the street is a story that is not acceptable. The white-wash story stinks. The kashrus status of the store stinks. The reputation right now of the up-to-now respectable kashrus certification entity stinks. Fat chance you'll ever catch me or any other discerning kosher consumer in that establishment. ”

“ Why do they need technitions to examine the video? Isn't the video there for the Mashgiachs to watch it instead of a mashgiach temidi as a form of spot checking? ”

“ oh no not again! ”

“ Rabbi Babad statement is 100% fasle!! I have spoken to eywithness that saw with their eyes a few empty packs of "treif" franks in the store!!! I know who has it, the avidance speaks much more then rabbi babad!!!
Enough of tartikov! Enough of treif! ”

“ Does this store have any connection to Schwarma King in Monticello? ”

“ Is R. Babbad Makpid on bishul akum? Or does he have a heter that franks were precooked? ”

“ I had several conversations with the brother-in-law several times when I would go there. He is from Yemen, and wears a kippa seruga. He does not speak English or Yiddish, only Hebrew. He came across as a pious yid on his standard. He is a controlling person, and runs the place as a trooper. Its seems to me that he was there to bring order to the place, probably before the pesach rush.

The owner is a fine yid, more heimish, and his son a young kud in his early 20’s has always his tsitis out, and an erlicher and betamter bocher. They are honest and very hard working people. I had numerous conversations with them on many occasions.

I think I got a scope of their thinking, and the owner and his young son are definitely very erleche yidden. Since the Monsey story, I don’t eat meat only in my home, But I ate there falafels, many times. I am very confident that I was not nichshol. Not even with a bleeaa, noten taam.
”

“ 76,

Mr. Supervisor and many others, however, seem to have serious fundamental issues with what Chazal tell us the Torah tells us we may rely on. We do at times find "barishanh amru," mirsas has to be judiciously applied in a situational basis.

But what many seem to forget is that this is Hashem's Torah and he told us what to do and how to live. There are rules for that. and no amount of emotion changes those.

Chazal, the Shulchan Aruch and Nosei Keilim give us guidleines of how and when we can trust a goy, an kusi, and an am haaretz. They tell us what chazakah is. When to make assumptions.

Chazal, the Rishonim, and the Gedolei Achronim were also "groise erliche Yidden." And we find that they confronted devious people as well... Ein kol chodosh tachas Hashemesh. Yet they paskened what they did.

What's dead is not mirsas. Or Eid Echad neeman b'issurin.

What's dead the beilef in Torah and Chazal, taken over by misguided passion based on emotion -- not Halachah -- and a refusal to recognize Emes. ”

“ Is R. Babbad Makpid on bishul akum? Or does he have a heter that franks were precooked? ”

“ Is R. Babbad Makpid on bishul akum? Or does he have a heter that franks were precooked? ”

“ “ Rabbi Babad statement is 100% fasle!! I have spoken to eywithness that saw with their eyes a few empty packs of "treif" franks in the store!!! I know who has it, the avidance speaks much more then rabbi babad!!!
Enough of tartikov! Enough of treif! ”

You clearly have personal issues with Tartikov and that is fine. Who cares how many got in. I have not heard about multiple OPEN packs and will wait to see if someone testifies to the beis din that they saw that. The fact is that it was caught and it can be dealt with. Is it possible that someone ate treif? Yes it is POSSIBLE. I'm sure it happens more than any of us will ever know about. Does this make the owner a rasha? NO WAY. ”

“ “ Rabbi Babad statement is 100% fasle!! I have spoken to eywithness that saw with their eyes a few empty packs of "treif" franks in the store!!! I know who has it, the avidance speaks much more then rabbi babad!!!
Enough of tartikov! Enough of treif! ”

You clearly have personal issues with Tartikov and that is fine. Who cares how many got in. I have not heard about multiple OPEN packs and will wait to see if someone testifies to the beis din that they saw that. The fact is that it was caught and it can be dealt with. Is it possible that someone ate treif? Yes it is POSSIBLE. I'm sure it happens more than any of us will ever know about. Does this make the owner a rasha? NO WAY. ”

“ Does this store have any connection to Schwarma King in Monticello? ”

“ Is R. Babbad Makpid on bishul akum? Or does he have a heter that franks were precooked? ”

“ We should learn from this story that Kosher Restaurants should not higher non jews to work in the kitchen. Im sure a yid would take this job especially in these hard economic times . ”

“ Again my disclaimer that I know nothing at all about this case. I have nothing to do with this hechsher, or store, and have no information regarding this case.

However, we can see from this case, that Videos can not replace a Mashgiach on the premises.
A Mashgiach must be Temidi
A Mashgiach must be there at all times.
A Mashgiach must have the keys, lock up and open in the AM.
A Mashgiach MUST check EVERY ITEM THAT COMES INTO THE STORE by himself, physically.

Sure, someone who wants to cheat can cheat even with a Mashgiach there. But is is much more likely the store will be kosher, and the food what it is supposed to be with a real, live, mashgiach there.

And, yes, he needs to be a Real Mashgiach, not some Yid sitting in the corner reading something.

And, also, yes, we DO appreciate input from customers.

Any time you see something, mashgiach or not, that does not look right to you, phone the Rav HaMachshir. The phone number should be on the Teudas Kashrus.

Everyone can help prevent these things from happening.

But, it is not a good thing to put these things in public until after the Rav HaMachshir is called. This is for 2 reasons. One, maybe there IS a reason, or it is a small mistake, and you don't want to kill a business.
But, the second reason, is that if you quietly phone the Rav HaMachshir, he has the opportunity to put things in play to catch the owner red-handed BEFORE the owner can begin any cover up, throw away the evidence, or prepare a "story."

But, though I have heard good things about this hechsher, I don't care. I would not eat any place without a mashgiach temidi.

When I go out to eat, I ask first if they have a mashgiach present. If yes, then I will take a seat and order. Then, I always ask to meet the mashgiach. If he is not present, I leave the food on the table uneaten, and walk out.

If it a place under my own hashgacha, and the mashgiach is ever missing, he is automatically fired, and never rehired. My rules are: If you must leave for any reason, including going to the doctor, picking something up next door, ANYTHING, you must phone me first, and I will have someone cover for you.
If I park down the block from a restaurant which I am covering, I will watch a while without going in. If ANYTHING is brought into the store, I wait a few min, then go in and ask the mashgiach to show me what was just delivered. If he does not know something was delivered, I will pull my hechsher with no deliberation or discussion.

That to me, bringing in any food or keilim without notifying the mashgiach is an INTENTIONAL KASHRUS VIOLATION. ”

“ this store did not have temidis as they rely on cameras for the most part .. i think im gonna go to only OU certified restaurants as they have a rule of always having a mashgiach temidi in all meat restaurants ”

“ VIN why do you have this disgusting video full of shmutziga loshon? ”

“ Once again... I don't get it... When it comes to some of the other hot topics here like abuse, molestation, etc. some jump up and scream that we can't publicly point fingers, and have to be careful not to destroy the reputations of prominent Rebbonim.

So why here are we ready to destroy a man's business and tear Tartikov to pieces over a mistake. Was sending this man to buy hot dogs a foolish decision? Of course it was. Was reporting it immediately to the rav hamachshir the appropriate action to take? Of course it was. Is destroying this poor business owner's livelihood and reputation over an honest mistake (no obvious intention to deceive) the right action to take? Of course NOT! Is slandering the rav hamachshir the right action to take? Of course NOT!

Mistakes happen. They can happen anywhere at any time. Sometimes it is complacency. Sometimes (like in this case) this mistake is asking the wrong person to complete a task who may not fully understand what is being asked or the consequences of a mistake.

You never made a bad decision that had negative consequences? Do you want it held over your head for the rest of your life? Has anyone even spoken to the owner of the store? He may be devastated... ashamed to show his face in public... loshon hora swirling around him! Instead of shaming him, HELP HIM. Clearly we have may experts commenting on this article, so go see him... educate him on ways he can improve his procedures to minimize his risk. Tell him what you would like to see him do to strengthen your trust in him. Give the man a chance to redeem himself.
”

“ How come you "never liked the look of him"? Because he wasn't from "unzere"?
I ate there a few times in the summer* and had some conversations with him. He came across as a decent yid.
*(If the allegations are true, I'm going to assume "kan nimtza, kan haya" - now it was found, now is when it occured. Maybe the current economic pressures caused him to do unfortunate drastic actions) ”

“ Great video. nice to hear such fine looking yeshivishe bochrum cursing nival peh like a bunch of drunk street trash beheimas ”

“ i shop there all the time and i can testify that the owner is a reliable person and his sons are great too. ”

“ Is R. Babbad Makpid on bishul akum? Or does he have a heter that franks were precooked? ”

“ Once again... I don't get it... When it comes to some of the other hot topics here like abuse, molestation, etc. some jump up and scream that we can't publicly point fingers, and have to be careful not to destroy the reputations of prominent Rebbonim.

So why here are we ready to destroy a man's business and tear Tartikov to pieces over a mistake. Was sending this man to buy hot dogs a foolish decision? Of course it was. Was reporting it immediately to the rav hamachshir the appropriate action to take? Of course it was. Is destroying this poor business owner's livelihood and reputation over an honest mistake (no obvious intention to deceive) the right action to take? Of course NOT! Is slandering the rav hamachshir the right action to take? Of course NOT!

Mistakes happen. They can happen anywhere at any time. Sometimes it is complacency. Sometimes (like in this case) this mistake is asking the wrong person to complete a task who may not fully understand what is being asked or the consequences of a mistake.

You never made a bad decision that had negative consequences? Do you want it held over your head for the rest of your life? Has anyone even spoken to the owner of the store? He may be devastated... ashamed to show his face in public... loshon hora swirling around him! Instead of shaming him, HELP HIM. Clearly we have may experts commenting on this article, so go see him... educate him on ways he can improve his procedures to minimize his risk. Tell him what you would like to see him do to strengthen your trust in him. Give the man a chance to redeem himself.
”

“ this guy (frenk) rom isreal is there more from 2 weeks, i see him here more from 2 months ”

“ Here is where you can purchase those hot dogs

http://www.bar-s.com/storeloc/frm_cont.aspx ”

“ VIN why do you have this disgusting video full of shmutziga loshon? ”

“ The bottom line is...all these frum CHONYUKUS are so right for not eating any thing out side of there house....we see again and again that you can't trust anyone


”

“ what's your point of telling us we can purchase these traif hotdogs??? ”

“ Here is the root of the problem, Hatred for Sephardic Jews.If the owner is Sephardic,then we must have his head, because he is no different that the Spanish worker.If it was Chusid owner then everything would have been swept under the rug. ”

“ This Rabbi (Moshe Babad, of the "Beis Din") is reverting to the same old tricks of equivocating and hedging his bets, hemming and hawing! Not only is it wrong that this breach in Kashrus happened, but he doesn't even think of taking responsibility. Rabbi Yechiel Babad, on the other hand would have taken full responsibility. But it wouldn't happen in the first place. I happened to be inside a food establishment in BP when Rabbi Y. Babad arrived. All the staff was "panic stricken", including the owner. After the Rabbi left and the owner breathed a sigh of relief, I learned something. If the supervised establishment shakes in their boots, such mishaps don't happen. The main fault lies with the person who put a "manager" in charge who's not familiar with all the facets of the [local] industry!!! ”

“ Listen up people: Ask yourself what does "Rabbi Naftali Meir Babad Tartikover Beis Din" have to gain from taking off the HASHGACHA or by leaving the HASHGACHA on ? Isn't it all about the bottom line, his bottom line so read between the lines its 12 hours later and the story (cover up) should of been HASHGACHA on or HASHGACHA off. Nah he is consulting with his advisers what would be the best course of action for his bottom line ”

“ What utter nonsense!!!! Was Finkel swept under the rug? Enough with the BS! ”

“ There could be no such "heter" so whether he is makpid or not is irrelevant...the issue of bishul akum doesn't apply to treifus which are clearly labled as such ”

“ To show you that none of theses stores are in the vicinity of Shwarma King ”

“ So please explain why on these message boards the people from the smaller communities write that the Rabbonim seem to be able to cover up for the sexual predators within their midsts ? There is no proper oversight when there is only one game in town. ”

“ All the mashgichim are busy with LIPA no time for Kosher meat. ”

“ The poster (#188) was talking about the fact that he allowed the goy to put the franks on the grill by himself. He didn't know these ones were treif, but even if they were kosher the poster wants to know how they were not bishul akum. The answers are two: First, as the poster himself suggests, franks are precooked, and that is indeed a heter, lechol hade'os. It's not some farvorfene kulah, it's exactly right and there's no reason to be machmir. Second, this is an Ashkenazi hechsher, catering to an Ashkenazi clientele, and as #198 says, the grill is lit by a Jew. Even if the owner is Sefardi and can't eat such food himself, he's allowed to sell it to Ashkenazim. ”

“ One more point. Way too many mashgichim are horribly underpaid. This is a major problem.
How does anyone expect quality, reliable employees for what so many pay a mashgiach today?
Remember, you want a mashgiach who is married with children, you need to pay him enough to support that family and pay schar limud to put his kids in yeshiva.

If we say, "OY! That much?" Then we may as well give up on American kashrus.

Personally, *** I *** would not trust the work of any mashgiach who is paid only $13 or $14 /hour.

If you want a mashgiach who is reliable, does his job, and is trustworthy, you must pay him a real salary and benefits. He must have medical coverage for his family, pay his mortgage, buy food and clothing, and tuition.

Would YOU trust someone who has to go into debt to pay for food/clothing, etc.,?
You can't!
I am not saying there are no reliable but underpaid mashgichim. That would be slapping some dedicated people in the face. I am saying that TODAY, we must pay better.

Yes, this will mean you pay more for your food! Suck it up.

Would you want to pay $1.00 less on your lunch, but know that a mashgiach had to go to a gemach to clothe his family? If you said, "Yes," you should be ashamed of yourself.

We need to update our thinking on compensating mashgichim. ”

“ Mr. Milhouse, would you be so kind as to post your credentials so that we can understand how you came to be an expert on everything. ”

“ I WILL EAT THER AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU CAN"T KILL SOMEONES BUSINESS CUZ OF ONE MISTAKE ”

“ Mr. Milhouse, would you be so kind as to post your credentials so that we can understand how you came to be an expert on everything. ”

“ Not just meat places, ALL places under the OU (minus a few that got grandfathered in) are under CONSTANT supervision. Personally, I'd trust the OU/OK/*K over some Chassidische rebbe. ”

“ I was an investor in an upscale kosher restaurant. I have to say the following. The very idea of a hashgocho company is one of insult. What they are essentially saying is that you are not a trustworthy individual which is insulting to most people. But for $400 per month we will loan you our reputation, providing of course that you pay a mashgiach tmidi $18-22 an hour which by the way part of which gets kicked back to the certifying agency. And that you buy products with their hechesher almost exclusively unless of course they don't have that product under their thumb. So just for example, if a fleishig restaurant with the OK hechsher (they are very honest by the way) needs to buy meat or chicken they will let you buy hisachdus or whatever because they don't certify quality meat or chicken. However you you couldn't bring in Minute Maid OJ because they give the hechsher to Tropicana. And this gives them credibility with the manufacturer and so the more products you certify the stronger you get.
Now in some cases you will have a working mashgiach, this is a guy that is trully ehrlich and wants to earn his keep, this fellow is very commendable. I will give you one example, there is a daytime Mashgiach at Le Marais with initials AK. I have been eating there for years because my office is just around the corner he is a real asset to the restaurant and I am sure the owners are happy with him. Yet the same restaurant has an evening mashgiach a young man from Europe that enjoys sitting at the bar chatting with the pretty ladies that come in. He is a "behaima" I do my best not to eat there if I walk in and see him there.
The bottom line is this. The owner needs to be a mench too you need to be able to trust him to certain degree. As to my restaurant? I had so much aggravation mostly from the certifying agency that we closed up and re-opend without a hechsher and are BH doing great business. ”

“ He is an ehrleche yid who has studied all the halachos of everything and thus is an expert on both religious and secular matters. Anyone in BP knows him and has great respect for him. While he is wrong on the Rubashkin matter, he is right on virtually all other Torah matters. ”

“ can anyone explain why don't the chasidishe kashrosh organezations requesting a masgeach temidi?
the OU and the OK reqire. ”

“ Mashgichim should not be paid. They should do it for the mitzva of letting the community have a place to eat. If not paid, there is no reason to be dishonest. ”

“ can anyone justify the knife incident? ”

“ This would never happen in Monsey. ”

“ Does this store have any connection to Schwarma King in Monticello? ”

“ This would never happen in Monsey. ”

“ can anyone justify the knife incident? ”

“ What about R Yitzchak Bitton's allegations? I used to eat at Le Marais when I could afford to, but since Rav Bitton's story came out I haven't set foot there, because I trust his word about what he saw and heard. The way the OU smeared him was shameful. As for RAK, ask him privately about RYB's allegations and you will not hear him say that he was wrong. But RAK has a parnossoh to worry about, and he is operating as an agent of the OU, on whose achrayus the kashrus rests, so he's not required to sacrifice himself and his family as RYB did. (By the way, I can see the OU's side also, and RYB could have expected to be fired, but they should not have spread those malicious claims about him.) ”

“ This would never happen in Monsey. ”

“ And what should they and their families eat? ”

“ Is R. Babbad Makpid on bishul akum? Or does he have a heter that franks were precooked? ”

“ No, I have nothing to do with this establishment.

But, this helps to prove my point that EVERY kosher food establishment with a hechsher MUST have a mashgiach temidi. ... and it is best to rotate the mashgichim.

This means, even the owners can't come into the place before the mashgiach arrives with the key, and can't stay after the mashgiach leaves. The mashgiach opens with an employee or owner in the AM, and closes with an employee or owner in the PM. The mashgiach takes the keys home with him.
(the kashrus supervisor has a spare)

OY! What if the mashgiach gets sick? or his car gets stuck, or all the rest of those questions, (fire in the middle of the night, etc.,)

This is solved by taking a spare key, and double sealing it inside one envelope, which is inside another envelope, with the seal of the RAV HAMACHSHIR on it.
In a real emergency, or if the mashgiach is significantly delayed, the Rav HaMachshir is called on the phone and only with his permission (if he or one of his staff can't come immediately) the envelopes are opened and the owner can go in.

The Rav HaMachshir then gets there as quickly as possible, and changes all the locks, giving the owner a newly sealed key.

This is not over doing it. This is what is, unfortunately, needed today...
EVEN IF THE OWNER IS VERY RELIGIOUS.

Not only do I insist on this, with EVERY owner, no matter how frum he is, but every time I visit, I check the sealed emergency key. If the seal is broken, I will pull the hechsher then and there.

The Yetzer Hora does not descriminate. He attacks those with long payus and langer recklech just as quickly as those who put their kippot in their pockets when they leave.

SO, MACHGIACH TEMIDI FOR ALL.

And, why do I say ROTATE the mashgichim? Because they also can be tempted, and they can be intimidated by a pushy owner. Or, sometimes they "buy into" the owners "goodness" and beging "trusting" him. This means they feel funny checking what he brings in. A good Rav HaMachshir keeps his mashgichim changing places. ... and he, personally, himself, or his kashrus supervisor, visits FREQUENTLY,

The mashgiach MUST check every single item entering the establishment!
ALWAYS
NO MATTER HOW BUSY HE IS
NO MATTER HOW MUCH OF A RUSH THE OWNER IS TO GET IT OUT OF HIS DOUBLE-PARKED CAR AND INTO THE FRIDGE FREEZER, ETC.,

Now, that being said, I have no clue as to what the story is/was here. I do not know if they had a mashgiach temidi who was careless or not. I do not know anything, nor am I saying anything about this establishment in question.
I do not claim any knowledge of it, and do not have any knowledge. I do not live in, nor do I work in Brooklyn.

I am writing this only to explain why you always see me screaming for mashgichim who are present from opening to closing at ANY and ALL kosher establishments.

====

The other big problem we have, is one hechsher pulls a hechsher, and one of the many others jumps in and gives the guy a new certification.
We need to all stick together.
If someone calls me and tells me he wants my hechsher, I find out who he had before, and I phone the previous rav hamachshir, and speak to his kashrus supervisor.
If certification was pulled for intentional kashrus violations, I WILL NOT EVEN RETURN THE MAN'S CALL. I WILL NEVER TAKE ON A PLACE THAT HAD ITS CERTIFICATION REVOKED FOR INTENTIONAL KASHRUS VIOLATIONS.

The only time I will "adjust" that stand, is if the place is sold, really sold, and the original owner has no interest in it, and is banned from entering onto the premises.
Also, I will find out from the old mashgichim who were the employees who were the most problematic, and they must go.
The place will then be kashered completely, just like a company buying a treif restaurant, and will be closed at least one week, to let all know that there is a clear change in ownership, management, and certification.
(I will also keep a sharp eye on that place the first year or more, to make sure the sale was "real" ....)
”