Williamsburg, NY – For those of you who comment if I’m right or wrong, win or lose, stable or mental, the first question that should be asked is “why would they hold a debate in a tax exempt place and in a religious institution” why not hold it in a public place.
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if you create a Jewish political club and hold a debate in a shul or synagogue, you would have many of the outside world yelling “that’s its not right to mix politics and religion” my obligation is to stand by my believes and if a question arises to ask my Rabbi, and when I did, I was told to “stay away” and that’s what I’m doing.
Few Rabbunim from Williamsburg, Boro Park and Flatbush who were debating this question since I raised it, could not find a single halacha for me to go in.
as for, if this will hurt my campaign because I’m restricted, in my 35 years I was an “unelected” city councilman, have worked on every issue with all City, State and Federal agencies, with all elected officials from Democrat to Republican, from Conservative to Independent, with issues as, affordable housing to better health care, from fighting crime to congestion pricing, from better environmental to fighting rent increases, all these and many more, have benefited not only the Jewish Community, but also Latino’s, African American and Asians, and never was my religion in jeopardy or an obstacle, you can bend some rules, but you can’t bend religion, it was engraved in stone, if I start to bend them now, by election night I will be bent over the edge.
I also represent over 5,000 families in Mitch-Llama housing multi ethnic (you didn’t know), they never had a problem with my religion
For CBID President Lucy Koteen to state “how can someone who has so many restrictions on his life represent us” and she continues” “you have to go to funerals when someone gets shot, you are not going because it’s a Catholic Church?” shame on her, is this is her only problem “getting shot” maybe she did not see what I saw when I served a Volunteer ambulance EMT for over 25 years and have seen many, but in the church?, I saw them in the hospital, from Sea View Hospital in Staten Island to Columbia Presbyterian in the upper part of Manhattan, and all Hospitals in between as well as serving the board of Cumberland and then Woodhull for over 20 years. and if that wasn’t enough, being at the Medical Examiner’s office gave you a first hand view, Mrs. Koteen should google my name and she might be shocked with my accomplishments for over 35 years, and google doesn’t know I’m Jewish with restrictions.
Mrs. Koteen is desperately trying to find blame and fault on me “represent us” who is the us, I was just invited by another party for a debate and its being held on a neutral (not religious) ground and I accepted the invitation, are they us? or other political parties such as Democrat, Republican, Workman’s Family and Independence part of “us”? is there a “you” “me” and “us”? and “how many” so far you only have one that you made a questionable choice of location not taking into consideration that it might create a problem.
it’s your action that asked for my reaction.
maybe she believes that everyone shot, dies on the spot and goes straight to a church, she fails to mention all the issues that are presently concerning the cost of living, health care and child care, more affordable housing and better quality of life issues, increase in taxes and transportation, etc;
as for the other City, State and federal elected officials who are observant Jews, never go into a church, Sen. Lieberman never went with car or voted on Sabbath, Assemblyman Sheldon Silver, Councilman Shimcha Felder, etc; and they represent the people very well.
Mrs. Koteen needs to apologize to the entire Jewish Community for her comments, and at the same time have the CBID search what the needs and the problems of the people in the city are, and when she does, she will learn that I’m the best candidate for the council seat that is being vacated by Yassky without being at the debate.
I will do my best to let the people in my district know where I stand on issues, what my agenda and plans are when I win and to back it up-inform them of my 35 years of accomplishment and achievements not only for the Jewish Community, but for all residents of Williamsburg, Greenpoint, Cobble hill, Park Slope etc;
and will do it respectfully, not attacking anyone’s religious believes or violating his or her civil rights.
I hope that you will come to the conclusion that I can be your best messenger and loud speaker representing your needs and concerns to the City Council
A bit long but point received.
its a Locale. a local community center. this is not new. such events, meetings and forums take place in houses of worship all the time in every neighborhood in every county in every state in the country. it is not sponsored or endorsed by the building or its owners. it is merely utilized as a convinience. a local location know to the people who live near it, that is suitable for the forum be it in its location, its size, its facilities.
By the way, why is the rabbi who made the spak such a big secret?
quite telling indeed is your poor writing, lack of common knowlege and obvious lack of second grade grammar skills .
You’ve got my vote and definitely Hashem’s vote on this one.
You are 100% correct, Reb Yitzchok Avraham, and don’t let the politically crazy world tell you differently.
I also would NEVER attend any function in a church, social or professional, because I am a Jew who fears G-d and respects Jewish Law.
If I lived in your jurisdiction, I would vote for you in a moment. You’re the kind of public servant I’d like in office.
Be strong and of good courage.
if want to run for public office you need to be open to all inclding basements of chruches. dont make a needless chilul hashem.
Yasher Koach!!!
Finally, a man who puts Hashem first and not “politics”
Kol Hakoved to R’ Yitzchak a man who stands by his beleifs is indeed an honorbale man and one who I would like to represent me
Why not just say that you want a neutral site so members of all communities will feel at home at the debate. Offer them a shul or public school auditorium.
this is a true Kidush Hashem by a great Yid and a Great American
I’m so tired of people who keep commenting on stories like this and say it’s not asur to go to a church. Here’s the fact: all we have to rely on are the numerous tshuvos that have forbidden going into a church for any reason. When the gedolei yisroel say it’s ok to go for a debate, then please let me know. Until then, no matter how good your argument is that you should be allowed, even if you are the great haskel lookstein, you do not have the right to do something clearly against ALL the poiskim – ESPECIALLY IN PUBLIC!
The fact that you would not go into a church does not, in my opinion, affect your ability to to be an effective councilmen. I would however be concerned about the fact that you are apparently unable to construct a proper English sentence (never mind a paragraph or article) — this is by far and away the most poorly written post I’ve seen on VIN (and let me tell you, that’s a mouthful).
Theres no such thing as separation of shul and church.
It’s church and state how dare you compare or C”v equate?
“The Dobrinner Rav and other true gadolim who are the authorities on this issue have held that as long as one does not directly participate in avodah zaroh, it is mutar to enter a church.”
Do you know what they pasken in this case? I have asked and been told its assur under any circumstance to go into the sanctuary and a shailoh for each case separately in the bldng.
Be proud with your belive, as a willy resident i did not had in mind to vote for you. but today i changed my mind. dont forget from where you come, after election.
issac I agree totally with your decision. stay strong
#17 you are full of it you don’t have a clue what you are talking .according to you if the goy does not understand why we don’t eat ham its a chilul hashem ? Are you stupid or its just an act because you did not get to the position that mr abraham is in ?
6# You morons don’t know what ur talking about!!!! Read carefully!! Its “freedom of religion, not freedom “from” religion”!!!! Meaning, any us citizen, including politicians can live by and practice any religion they please!! As its the government or politicians with their legislative capacity that could not “restrict any religion or root for any specifc religion” that’s separation of church and state!!! Again, its “freedom of religion, not freedom “from” religion”!!!!
As long as you are not entering the inner sanctuary,the religious part of the building,it is permitted to go.The building is not considered the avodoh zorro.The religious hall is,the basement,or non-religious conferece room is neutral and is muttar. Shuls,churches and schools are used as polling places for voting and frum Jews go in and vote as well as every other citizen. Stop being ‘eztra’frum. Ask the rov of your shul.
Yes Mr Abraham has SERIOUS grammer problems and slight spelling probelms and VIN would be well advised to run his future writings through MS Word for spell check etc…..
BUT
His heart and mind are in the right place and he makes more sense than tons of more educated people. And, last time I checked, most New Yorkers talk and write at his level – so its good that he is not completely out of touch!
The problem with the liberal (jews) democratic wing is, one on side they fight church and state in the same time they want state should be only debated in a Church, if someone refuses he is condemed.
The realy Q is why are they hosting it in a church?
English is not the 1st language for most NYers as a matter of fact if you go down the list of almost all City Councilman-woman most of them are Emigrants who barely speak English at a proper level.
I don’t expect a doer to be fluent when it comes to grammar or speech esp. when we see 60% of our professional elected officials don’t to half of what they were elected to do for us
Where in the Torah does it say a Jew can’t go into a church basement?
There are may things in shas permitted mishum eivah and many others permitted for darchei shalom. Rabban Gamliel went to a bathhouse with an idol inside.
There are voting places in shuls and churches and nobody has ever complained. Why make fights in a medinah shel chesed?
This is a chillul hashem of the highest order.
Thankfully, Rabbi Lookstein didn’t insult Obama and the entire USA, and had the seichel to pasken leniently.
I never liked isaac, and usually don’t agree with his positions. This is the 1st time I raise my hat for him. For a change Isaac is doing the right thing.
On the otherhand if because of this he’ll lose, I’ll be a winner.
Why couldn’t they make it in a public school or a ‘Y’ building?? I think there used to be one in Wmbg???
Who is the Dobrinner Rov? I have never heard of such a Rov.
I read the article posted by Mr. Abraham in the comments and his comments are frankly absurd. Church’s in many cases are public places which open their doors to various community groups. In fact even synagogues do this. I have attended numerous community meetings at Churches and Synagogues. In many cases they are they only public spaces that will allow you to do this with a minimal or no charge. St Francis college is a religious institution. I can’t tell you how many secular meetings I have attended there. The concept of kosher non kosher meeting places is also patently absurd. The subway and the buses are non kosher as is Brooklyn Boro hall. since the almighty is everywhere he is in the basement of a church just as much. There isn’t devil worship or idolatry taking place there. In fact we pray to the same G-d. Some synagogues need extra space and in fact one of them uses the sanctuary of a church for the Jewish High Holiday services. The fact that someone won’t go to a service where a body is should not be used as an excuse for not attending a meeting when no such body was present. Bodies are everywhere sometime. This whole thing is just an excuse and so far the explanation and the article he posted makes me more angry at him for hypocrisy and narrow mindedness than anything else. The Church’s in our neighborhoods serve important public issues. To refuse to attend a secular event there on the excuse that it is in a Church highlights what separate us and should cause great concern. I have been inside many Mosques…and I am still Jewish. The refusal to enter in my opinion states much more about the solidness of your own beliefs that entering into one and maintaining them. Does this mean you can’t sail on a ship that has a Christian chapel on it?
You can’t trust anything Milhouse says, because he is just plain wrong.
The phrase Seperation of Church and State actually occurred in american jurispudence in a supreme court proceeding in 1878:
“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions — I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore man to all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.”
The Hugo Black reference he makes did not occur until 1948! Thats a 70 year difference.
jefferson’s letter was quoted in the supreme court decision in 1878.
jefferson was also quoted by black in 1947.
1. I thought it was uniform, that any Jew could not enter any other house of worship (be it mosque, or church), so what’s the problem? Are they against principled men?
2. There are christians that will not even enter any other church other then their own denominations. Muslims also have similar prohibitions on them although I am not clear what they are.