“ I'm so tired of people who keep commenting on stories like this and say it's not asur to go to a church. Here's the fact: all we have to rely on are the numerous tshuvos that have forbidden going into a church for any reason. When the gedolei yisroel say it's ok to go for a debate, then please let me know. Until then, no matter how good your argument is that you should be allowed, even if you are the great haskel lookstein, you do not have the right to do something clearly against ALL the poiskim - ESPECIALLY IN PUBLIC! ”

“ Your problem is that you view this as a chilul Hashem while I believe most of us would call that a Kidush hashem.....

Were you embarrassed by the Israeli offensive in Gaza, Too, what you don't want Jews to be seen in society, your philosophy is probably let us Jews lay low till Moshiach comes, right ??

The opposite is true, if we follow our religion to the end, we will looked up to rather than ridiculed (see Sen. Lieberman VS. Madoff). ”

“ its a Locale. a local community center. this is not new. such events, meetings and forums take place in houses of worship all the time in every neighborhood in every county in every state in the country. it is not sponsored or endorsed by the building or its owners. it is merely utilized as a convinience. a local location know to the people who live near it, that is suitable for the forum be it in its location, its size, its facilities.

By the way, why is the rabbi who made the spak such a big secret?

quite telling indeed is your poor writing, lack of common knowlege and obvious lack of second grade grammar skills . ”

“ Sorry but #6 is right. Do you even know what a chillul Hashem is? I don't care what YOU perceive it to be...if non-Jews are offended by something like this because they don't understand the halacha, it's a chillul Hashem. End of story. As pointed out, no one is mad that he is sticking to his beliefs; good for him. Rather, we don't want a representative having to check with his rav for everything, just like you wouldn't want a Christian politic checking with his reverend for every decision. If the two don't mesh than he simply shouldn't be in that field.

And Gaza is not comparable. It is not a chillul Hashem because they are right to defend themselves, and you don't have to base your actions on world opinion in such a matter where your civilians' lives are at risk. In this case, no one is forcing Abraham to be in politics. ”

“ Sorry but #6 is right. Do you even know what a chillul Hashem is? I don't care what YOU perceive it to be...if non-Jews are offended by something like this because they don't understand the halacha, it's a chillul Hashem. End of story. As pointed out, no one is mad that he is sticking to his beliefs; good for him. Rather, we don't want a representative having to check with his rav for everything, just like you wouldn't want a Christian politic checking with his reverend for every decision. If the two don't mesh than he simply shouldn't be in that field.

And Gaza is not comparable. It is not a chillul Hashem because they are right to defend themselves, and you don't have to base your actions on world opinion in such a matter where your civilians' lives are at risk. In this case, no one is forcing Abraham to be in politics. ”

“ Sorry but #6 is right. Do you even know what a chillul Hashem is? I don't care what YOU perceive it to be...if non-Jews are offended by something like this because they don't understand the halacha, it's a chillul Hashem. End of story. As pointed out, no one is mad that he is sticking to his beliefs; good for him. Rather, we don't want a representative having to check with his rav for everything, just like you wouldn't want a Christian politic checking with his reverend for every decision. If the two don't mesh than he simply shouldn't be in that field.

And Gaza is not comparable. It is not a chillul Hashem because they are right to defend themselves, and you don't have to base your actions on world opinion in such a matter where your civilians' lives are at risk. In this case, no one is forcing Abraham to be in politics. ”

“ if want to run for public office you need to be open to all inclding basements of chruches. dont make a needless chilul hashem. ”

“ Sorry, but I believe #10 is right.
If a goy is offended that you won't remove your yarmulka or you won't shake a womens hand cuz they don't understand the halacha, are you suggesting its a chillul hashem and you'd have to do those things?

Don't give up on G-D.
I know the winds are blowing hard right now, but hang in there a little longer. You don't want Moshiach reading your post out lout when he gets here.
Chazak. ”

“ Nor have people who insist on holding public meetings in houses of worship. ”

“ its a Locale. a local community center. this is not new. such events, meetings and forums take place in houses of worship all the time in every neighborhood in every county in every state in the country. it is not sponsored or endorsed by the building or its owners. it is merely utilized as a convinience. a local location know to the people who live near it, that is suitable for the forum be it in its location, its size, its facilities.

By the way, why is the rabbi who made the spak such a big secret?

quite telling indeed is your poor writing, lack of common knowlege and obvious lack of second grade grammar skills . ”

“ its a Locale. a local community center. this is not new. such events, meetings and forums take place in houses of worship all the time in every neighborhood in every county in every state in the country. it is not sponsored or endorsed by the building or its owners. it is merely utilized as a convinience. a local location know to the people who live near it, that is suitable for the forum be it in its location, its size, its facilities.

By the way, why is the rabbi who made the spak such a big secret?

quite telling indeed is your poor writing, lack of common knowlege and obvious lack of second grade grammar skills . ”

“ As long as you are not entering the inner sanctuary,the religious part of the building,it is permitted to go.The building is not considered the avodoh zorro.The religious hall is,the basement,or non-religious conferece room is neutral and is muttar. Shuls,churches and schools are used as polling places for voting and frum Jews go in and vote as well as every other citizen. Stop being 'eztra'frum. Ask the rov of your shul. ”

“ if want to run for public office you need to be open to all inclding basements of chruches. dont make a needless chilul hashem. ”

“ Yes Mr Abraham has SERIOUS grammer problems and slight spelling probelms and VIN would be well advised to run his future writings through MS Word for spell check etc.....

BUT

His heart and mind are in the right place and he makes more sense than tons of more educated people. And, last time I checked, most New Yorkers talk and write at his level - so its good that he is not completely out of touch! ”

“ That's how you pasken. Mr Abraham asked a shayla and got a different psak. What makes your psak better than the one he got? What right have you got to demand that he follow your psak? What are you, the Sanhedrin in the Lishkas Hagozis? Maybe you should bow to his psak? In any case, once you ask a shayla you have a psak, and it doesn't matter what other people pasken. Or are you one of those people who go psak-shopping from rabbi to rabbi until you get the answer you wanted? ”

“ As long as you are not entering the inner sanctuary,the religious part of the building,it is permitted to go.The building is not considered the avodoh zorro.The religious hall is,the basement,or non-religious conferece room is neutral and is muttar. Shuls,churches and schools are used as polling places for voting and frum Jews go in and vote as well as every other citizen. Stop being 'eztra'frum. Ask the rov of your shul. ”

“ As long as you are not entering the inner sanctuary,the religious part of the building,it is permitted to go.The building is not considered the avodoh zorro.The religious hall is,the basement,or non-religious conferece room is neutral and is muttar. Shuls,churches and schools are used as polling places for voting and frum Jews go in and vote as well as every other citizen. Stop being 'eztra'frum. Ask the rov of your shul. ”

“ That's how you pasken. Mr Abraham asked a shayla and got a different psak. What makes your psak better than the one he got? What right have you got to demand that he follow your psak? What are you, the Sanhedrin in the Lishkas Hagozis? Maybe you should bow to his psak? In any case, once you ask a shayla you have a psak, and it doesn't matter what other people pasken. Or are you one of those people who go psak-shopping from rabbi to rabbi until you get the answer you wanted? ”

“ its a Locale. a local community center. this is not new. such events, meetings and forums take place in houses of worship all the time in every neighborhood in every county in every state in the country. it is not sponsored or endorsed by the building or its owners. it is merely utilized as a convinience. a local location know to the people who live near it, that is suitable for the forum be it in its location, its size, its facilities.

By the way, why is the rabbi who made the spak such a big secret?

quite telling indeed is your poor writing, lack of common knowlege and obvious lack of second grade grammar skills . ”

“ The whole idea of the separation of church and state is a ludicrous idea, which will inevitably lead to the destruction of all morals in this society, especially since if something does contradict halacha it is quite obvious what needs to be followed. Furthermore it has been proven time and time again that only someone that stands up for his beliefs will be respected. ”

“ a Chilel Hashem is not something that offended non jews, its something that offended Hashem, that's why its called Chilal Hashem not Chilal Akoim, for a yid to enter a church is definitely offensive to Hasaem, that's why its clearly a Chilel Hashem ”

“ Where in the Torah does it say a Jew can't go into a church basement? ”

“ The fact that you would not go into a church does not, in my opinion, affect your ability to to be an effective councilmen. I would however be concerned about the fact that you are apparently unable to construct a proper English sentence (never mind a paragraph or article) -- this is by far and away the most poorly written post I've seen on VIN (and let me tell you, that's a mouthful). ”

“ It's pretty obvious they were trying to trap him to go into a church, he should have invited them to his local shul in return. If he would have gone he would have sold his soule and his community would have not voted for him. How can you compare a church with your private house? The Church was built as is with all its rooms to serve it's interest, giving it out for the night does not make it a nuteral gathering hall, would you get married there?

Just food for thought, the Chasam Sofar would not allow me to go into many of these posters synagogues. He held that a reform or conservative temple is even worse than a church. Someone who believes that there is anything independent from Torah is definitly reform. How can you just close your eyes and do something questionable without asking the proper authorities. Would you risk breaking secular law without asking a lawyer?

He asked his Rabbi and that is the main stream Ultra Orthodox acctepted view. He is no different than a Jewish politician getting sworn into office on the Torah and a Muslim on a Quran, you dont leave everything behind when you become a politician and there is nothing in the law that obligates him to enter a building he cant enter under Jewish law.
”

“ its a Locale. a local community center. this is not new. such events, meetings and forums take place in houses of worship all the time in every neighborhood in every county in every state in the country. it is not sponsored or endorsed by the building or its owners. it is merely utilized as a convinience. a local location know to the people who live near it, that is suitable for the forum be it in its location, its size, its facilities.

By the way, why is the rabbi who made the spak such a big secret?

quite telling indeed is your poor writing, lack of common knowlege and obvious lack of second grade grammar skills . ”

“ I'm so tired of people who keep commenting on stories like this and say it's not asur to go to a church. Here's the fact: all we have to rely on are the numerous tshuvos that have forbidden going into a church for any reason. When the gedolei yisroel say it's ok to go for a debate, then please let me know. Until then, no matter how good your argument is that you should be allowed, even if you are the great haskel lookstein, you do not have the right to do something clearly against ALL the poiskim - ESPECIALLY IN PUBLIC! ”

“ g-d also says to be a mentsch
g-d also says "v'chai bahem"
g-d also says that everyone including goyim are created btzelem elokim. ”

“ g-d also says to be a mentsch
g-d also says "v'chai bahem"
g-d also says that everyone including goyim are created btzelem elokim. ”

“ There are may things in shas permitted mishum eivah and many others permitted for darchei shalom. Rabban Gamliel went to a bathhouse with an idol inside.

There are voting places in shuls and churches and nobody has ever complained. Why make fights in a medinah shel chesed?

This is a chillul hashem of the highest order.

Thankfully, Rabbi Lookstein didn't insult Obama and the entire USA, and had the seichel to pasken leniently. ”

“ Why couldn't they make it in a public school or a 'Y' building?? I think there used to be one in Wmbg??? ”

“ #3 and #17 are totaly wrong. Nowadays most public officials are street boys,immigrants that are iggnorant in anything the USA stands for,yet they are our elected reps. MR.Abraham you are sharp,strong,and professional. As usual you are the natural choice for representing the Jewish People. Being that I'm also an elected official,to a city wide spot I feel that you will a future city Rep. Good Look from a secret non- jewish admirer ”

“ I read the article posted by Mr. Abraham in the comments and his comments are frankly absurd. Church's in many cases are public places which open their doors to various community groups. In fact even synagogues do this. I have attended numerous community meetings at Churches and Synagogues. In many cases they are they only public spaces that will allow you to do this with a minimal or no charge. St Francis college is a religious institution. I can't tell you how many secular meetings I have attended there. The concept of kosher non kosher meeting places is also patently absurd. The subway and the buses are non kosher as is Brooklyn Boro hall. since the almighty is everywhere he is in the basement of a church just as much. There isn't devil worship or idolatry taking place there. In fact we pray to the same G-d. Some synagogues need extra space and in fact one of them uses the sanctuary of a church for the Jewish High Holiday services. The fact that someone won't go to a service where a body is should not be used as an excuse for not attending a meeting when no such body was present. Bodies are everywhere sometime. This whole thing is just an excuse and so far the explanation and the article he posted makes me more angry at him for hypocrisy and narrow mindedness than anything else. The Church's in our neighborhoods serve important public issues. To refuse to attend a secular event there on the excuse that it is in a Church highlights what separate us and should cause great concern. I have been inside many Mosques...and I am still Jewish. The refusal to enter in my opinion states much more about the solidness of your own beliefs that entering into one and maintaining them. Does this mean you can't sail on a ship that has a Christian chapel on it? ”

“ I read the article posted by Mr. Abraham in the comments and his comments are frankly absurd. Church's in many cases are public places which open their doors to various community groups. In fact even synagogues do this. I have attended numerous community meetings at Churches and Synagogues. In many cases they are they only public spaces that will allow you to do this with a minimal or no charge. St Francis college is a religious institution. I can't tell you how many secular meetings I have attended there. The concept of kosher non kosher meeting places is also patently absurd. The subway and the buses are non kosher as is Brooklyn Boro hall. since the almighty is everywhere he is in the basement of a church just as much. There isn't devil worship or idolatry taking place there. In fact we pray to the same G-d. Some synagogues need extra space and in fact one of them uses the sanctuary of a church for the Jewish High Holiday services. The fact that someone won't go to a service where a body is should not be used as an excuse for not attending a meeting when no such body was present. Bodies are everywhere sometime. This whole thing is just an excuse and so far the explanation and the article he posted makes me more angry at him for hypocrisy and narrow mindedness than anything else. The Church's in our neighborhoods serve important public issues. To refuse to attend a secular event there on the excuse that it is in a Church highlights what separate us and should cause great concern. I have been inside many Mosques...and I am still Jewish. The refusal to enter in my opinion states much more about the solidness of your own beliefs that entering into one and maintaining them. Does this mean you can't sail on a ship that has a Christian chapel on it? ”

“ To Schlomo (#73) - There is halacha that specifically deals with this. It is always prohibited to take part in any activity in a church's sanctuary (unless it is to save a life - ie. the building is in fire and you are saving people). Reform (and Ive heard some Conservative as well) synagogues will do this at times and it is 100% prohibited. There is no G-d fearing Rav who would tell you otherwise. While I have never understood the way these movements pick and choose which of G-d's laws to follow and not follow, this one is clear and it baffles me! This is not political thinking, or a philosophical issue or an issue of narrow mindedness. It is not like arguments of defining tsnius (modesty), where the argument may be about how much of the forearm a woman may reveal. This is no less important a law than not committing adultery and it is clear.

Your point about idolatry, is incorrect. People of these faiths do worship false idols and images (the man they believe is the messiah for one).

The part about a body having been there is misplaced as well. While there are issues there, the prohibitions on going into a church have nothing to do with it.

The not so clear parts revolve around other rooms within the same building and buildings attached to it. A reliable Rav should be consulted on this as the reason for being there may influence the answer.

Your emotions regarding this issue are obviously genuine, but based on an incorrect perception of the reasons, or based on the guidance of someone who is not knowledgeable enough in halacha. There is no hypocrisy here, and one should always be careful to show appropriate respect for the good works that many of those institutions do (AA/NA meetings and feeding the homeless for example). Nothing stops you from standing out on the street with them to feed the hungry and show your appreciation for them in that way (and make a Kiddush H' at the same time).

To answer your last question, ships usually do not have churches. Then usually have non-sectarian chapels. That being said, the chapel on a ship would be like a church as a "tenant" in an office building. The building is not there for the purpose of being a church. Likewise, the ship is was not built for the purpose of being a church either.

You are clearly passionate about these things. You should seek out your local Orthodox Rabbi and talk to him for clarification.

”

“ I read the article posted by Mr. Abraham in the comments and his comments are frankly absurd. Church's in many cases are public places which open their doors to various community groups. In fact even synagogues do this. I have attended numerous community meetings at Churches and Synagogues. In many cases they are they only public spaces that will allow you to do this with a minimal or no charge. St Francis college is a religious institution. I can't tell you how many secular meetings I have attended there. The concept of kosher non kosher meeting places is also patently absurd. The subway and the buses are non kosher as is Brooklyn Boro hall. since the almighty is everywhere he is in the basement of a church just as much. There isn't devil worship or idolatry taking place there. In fact we pray to the same G-d. Some synagogues need extra space and in fact one of them uses the sanctuary of a church for the Jewish High Holiday services. The fact that someone won't go to a service where a body is should not be used as an excuse for not attending a meeting when no such body was present. Bodies are everywhere sometime. This whole thing is just an excuse and so far the explanation and the article he posted makes me more angry at him for hypocrisy and narrow mindedness than anything else. The Church's in our neighborhoods serve important public issues. To refuse to attend a secular event there on the excuse that it is in a Church highlights what separate us and should cause great concern. I have been inside many Mosques...and I am still Jewish. The refusal to enter in my opinion states much more about the solidness of your own beliefs that entering into one and maintaining them. Does this mean you can't sail on a ship that has a Christian chapel on it? ”

“ Who is the Dobrinner Rov? I have never heard of such a Rov. ”

“ Like every other sensitive situation in life, we need to be careful and evaluate these situations individually. If a church owns the office building next door to it, am I allowed to go there? Am I allowed into the social hall that sits behind the church but is not attached? What if a building has a small church as a tenant? Am I allowed to go into that building?

What I'm saying is that as a general rule, we should not be going into churches as the gedolim have instructed. However, cases like this need to be looked at individually. If the meeting is not in the actual worshiping room, and the event is so public that nobody would assume an endorsement of the church or that Abraham was in some way involved with the chruch itself, maybe (Im not a posek... just giving a logical train of thought) it could be permissible in order to avoid a chilul H'.

I know poskim have said that even for a funeral (this is a problem with converts especially), one should not even linger outside of a church, and I have also heard others say the opposite. ”

“ Why don't you move to Iran, where they don't separate Church and State. Our forefathers here in the USA had the foresight as to how to build a big, happy and thriving society.

You are now going to change the constitution? ”

“ English is not the 1st language for most NYers as a matter of fact if you go down the list of almost all City Councilman-woman most of them are Emigrants who barely speak English at a proper level.

I don't expect a doer to be fluent when it comes to grammar or speech esp. when we see 60% of our professional elected officials don't to half of what they were elected to do for us ”

“ Well said, Millhouse.

In fact, I learned it is absolutely Ossur to ask for a second psak from another once your rov tells you no.

In fact, my rov, who was niftar about 2 years ago, used to purposely avoid using the word "Ossur" or "Possul" just to make sure you are not oiver on that if you ask someone else.

He used to say, "We don't do that." or "We would not use that."
To me that was his "Psak" as it should be. But it shows how careful he was to protect you from being nichshal in the trap of asking another rov. Many just can't help it. If they are unhappy with what their rov says, they just have to ask another.

Sometimes it is not to get an opposing view, but to get a better-understood answer. But if the other one says "do it" he still should follow the first one.

There are times I woke up the next day, and wondered about my Rov's reasonig, and asked a second Rov, but I preceded it with, Rav A. L. told me XXXXXX. He is my Rov, and I will follow his advice. But, Can you explain better to me what you believe his reasoning was? ”

“ A y? Really?
um, hello. that has got to be the STUPIDEST comment on this thread. Do you know who runs Ys? Do you know what it stands for?
Young Men's Christian Association
YMCA or Young Mens Catholic Association (just liek in the song that every yeshiva boy knows!)
YMCA MISSION: "To put Christian principles into practice through programs that build healthy spirit for mind and body for all."
Or perhaps you meant maybe the jewish Y which is sort of like a JCC (jewish community center which the yeshivishers wouldnt go to either) which is YWHA which stands for Young Women's Hebrew Association
which would obviously be as similarly unjustified or problematic as the Young mens christian association.



”

“ So, genius, where in the constitution is this separation of church and state mentioned?

The term was unknown in American jurisprudence until it was introduced by Klansman Hugo Black. ”

“ There is no such person. There's an anonymous commenter who's been quoting non-existent "gadolim" (I think that's how he usually spells it) with made-up names like this. I think he recently quoted a "Rabbi Getzelvasser" or something like that. I think he's also the same person who recently referred to R Avi Weiss and lehavdil Zalman Shachter as "gadolim". ”

“ Why couldn't they make it in a public school or a 'Y' building?? I think there used to be one in Wmbg??? ”

“ You can't trust anything Milhouse says, because he is just plain wrong.
The phrase Seperation of Church and State actually occurred in american jurispudence in a supreme court proceeding in 1878:

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions -- I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore man to all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties."

The Hugo Black reference he makes did not occur until 1948! Thats a 70 year difference. ”

“ That's Jefferson's letter, you moron. Jefferson had no role in drafting the constitution or the Bill of Rights, and his own opinions and prejudices have no legal significance. The Supreme Court did not adopt the phrase and treat it as if it were a legal standard until Black's era. And he got it from his days in the Ku Klux Klan. ”

“ That's Jefferson's letter, you moron. Jefferson had no role in drafting the constitution or the Bill of Rights, and his own opinions and prejudices have no legal significance. The Supreme Court did not adopt the phrase and treat it as if it were a legal standard until Black's era. And he got it from his days in the Ku Klux Klan. ”

“ That's Jefferson's letter, you moron. Jefferson had no role in drafting the constitution or the Bill of Rights, and his own opinions and prejudices have no legal significance. The Supreme Court did not adopt the phrase and treat it as if it were a legal standard until Black's era. And he got it from his days in the Ku Klux Klan. ”

“ That's Jefferson's letter, you moron. Jefferson had no role in drafting the constitution or the Bill of Rights, and his own opinions and prejudices have no legal significance. The Supreme Court did not adopt the phrase and treat it as if it were a legal standard until Black's era. And he got it from his days in the Ku Klux Klan. ”

“ Kuncklehead, who do you think Black cited in those supreme court decisions?
John C. Lester or Thomas Jefferson?
”

“ Black dragged out a letter from Jefferson, expressing his private view, and pretended that it was an authoritative source on the meaning of the constitution. He got this from his time in the Klan. "Separation of church and state" was never part of American jurisprudence before; and we've certainly never had anything of the kind in Judaism. ”

“ nah, we only had melochim and kohanim.... ”