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Perhaps most disheartening was hearing about the complete reversal in what once was the natural order of dating. It is no longer the men who pursue the women and ask them out. It is now the women who chase the men, making them appear desperate while the men get to appear dignified.
These conclusions may not surprise you. No doubt you are rolling your eyes even now and wondering why I even bothered to state the obvious. Until I disclose that the conversation was with ten very frum girls who were describing what the Chassidic dating scene has descended to.
We can no longer close our eyes to the serious dating crisis in the religious community wherein a man and woman’s most important decision may be based on values that are inimical to Judaism. King Solomon may have declared, ‘Beauty is misleading but a woman who fears G-d should be praised,’ but we clearly think that he was just kidding when he wrote it.
The purpose of a Torah education is the inner transformation of a human being away from the prevailing mores of the secular culture and toward the convictions of a G-d-centered life. And the only way to discern whether a Yeshiva education in general, and a Chassidic education in particular, is having any impact is whether its products make decisions that reflect the Torah values that are at the center of their education. But we now face a situation in which religious girls feel that putting more time into applying make-up and buying clothes than davening and learning will guarantee them a good shidduch. And that is a conclusion which can forever blight the integrity of Jewish orthodoxy.
Frum Jewish men, often spurred on by their imperial and see-no-imperfection mothers, are becoming increasingly shallow and vain. They may study Gemara and Chassidus for fifteen years but clearly the light of a G-dly life is not necessarily penetrating their souls or altering their world-views.
Every day I receive tens of emails from complete strangers in the religious community asking me if I can suggest a shidduch for them. But the increasing superficiality in the frum dating scene has me often feeling despair, like the story a year ago when I was going to introduce a young yeshiva scholar with a razor-sharp intellect to a brilliant frum intellectual woman who seemed perfect for him. The day before they were meant to go out he called me to tell me he was cancelling the date. He had seen her picture on FaceBook and decided he was not attracted to her. I was shocked. First, even by the most objective standards the girl is highly attractive. Second, the bochur did not even feel any shame in telling me that with the glance of a single picture he had dismissed the entire idea. The great intellectual who had written to me of how the most important thing to him was a girl who had scholarly Torah pursuits turned out to be an empty suit and yet another religious charlatan.
And where are the Yeshiva educators throughout this crisis? Can we really be proud of having raised a generation of future Rabbis who see skin and shape in a woman but seem oblivious to personality, mind, and spirit? Yes, I know physical attraction is extremely important in a relationship. But beauty dare never be defined in so corrupt and limiting a fashion as to preclude anything other than body parts. The Torah’s view of a woman’s beauty is glorious because it is holistic. It incorporates the softness of her voice (kol isha), the nurturing of her soul, and the wisdom of her uniquely feminine view of life. So how can a religious man whose years of education revolves around seeing the hidden within the obvious, the G-d who lurks beneath the veneer of nature, be so utterly blind to a woman’s soul? How can we in the Jewish community who love learning suddenly look at a woman and see all cover and no book?
About three years ago a young girl died in a Jerusalem seminary from anorexia. I penned an article that lamented the tragic consequences of poor body image on the part of even frum girls and how the frum community must educate boys and girls to have a much more holistic, and uniquely Jewish, view about beauty and how attraction is a composite between the body’s form and the soul’s light. The head of the seminary later got in touch through an intermediary and demanded an apology. I hade made a Chillul Hashem by writing the article, he contended.
No, I said. The only Chillul Hashem was a girl walking around stick-thin and nobody noticing because we have become so accustomed to a girl’s looks being her primary virtue, even in the Jewish religious world, that there was no other voice to tell her that her real radiance came from her inner beauty which was lost to the world when her luminous soul was tragically snuffed out.
We can and must do better. The Yarmulkes we wear, the tzitzis which swings from our sides, the beards that adorn our faces, are all statements of a belief in a higher truth and more lofty values, values whose highest manifestation lies in qualities possessed by the soulmate with whom we choose to share our lives.
Rabbi Shmuley Boteach is the international best-selling author of twenty books. www.shmuley.com 
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Read Comments (132) — Post Yours »
1
Mar 26, 2009 at 08:27 AM KING SOLOMON? Says:
Please look in Tenach, King David took Bat Sheva, why? because she was very beautiful (He did not see any middos while she was bathing). Our mother Leah had good Middos; but whom did Yaakov prefer? Would Eliezer dear bring home Rivka if she weren't very pretty? (yes it says very pretty).
2
Mar 26, 2009 at 08:25 AM esty Says:
Greatly written.
3
Mar 26, 2009 at 08:42 AM cool masmid Says:
“ Please look in Tenach, King David took Bat Sheva, why? because she was very beautiful (He did not see any middos while she was bathing). Our mother Leah had good Middos; but whom did Yaakov prefer? Would Eliezer dear bring home Rivka if she weren't very pretty? (yes it says very pretty). ”
You are looking in the Torah in a very dangerous way to support your corrupt outlook and perpective of life. And I say dangerous because that's what it is.......
4
Mar 26, 2009 at 08:41 AM cs Says:
What kind of talmid chachom and ben torah peruses facebook!?!
If these boys are surfing the internet and visiting sites like facebook etc. there are much bigger problems to deal with than the fact that they want skinny wives - a better approach might be banning the internet for yeshiva bochrim (which I think would be common sense) - see how effective that will be to keep the influences out.
I kind of get the feeling that the author of this article likes to write outrageous articles with catchy headlines and not much substance or accuracy.
5
Mar 26, 2009 at 08:40 AM shlomo zalman Says:
so, the frummeh are like the goyim. Good morning, America.
6
Mar 26, 2009 at 08:39 AM punch Says:
“ Please look in Tenach, King David took Bat Sheva, why? because she was very beautiful (He did not see any middos while she was bathing). Our mother Leah had good Middos; but whom did Yaakov prefer? Would Eliezer dear bring home Rivka if she weren't very pretty? (yes it says very pretty). ”
of course Leah had good midos. but why would you say that yakov only went for the looks? didn't Rochel have good midos as well. look in the gemara (i think it's in the 8th perek ov bava basra) says about what rochel did as to not embarace Leah.
7
Mar 26, 2009 at 08:39 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Please look in Tenach, King David took Bat Sheva, why? because she was very beautiful (He did not see any middos while she was bathing). Our mother Leah had good Middos; but whom did Yaakov prefer? Would Eliezer dear bring home Rivka if she weren't very pretty? (yes it says very pretty). ”
Well what should the girls who are not so pretty do, not get married??
8
Mar 26, 2009 at 08:37 AM Anonymous Says:
HOW RIGHT YOU ARE!!
9
Mar 26, 2009 at 08:34 AM Anonymous Says:
I don't typically comment on these types of articles but I must say (and the author said it very clearly)
Nobody says that beauty isn't an important factor but it should be the first question!
Too many people focus on the external and get lost with the internal.....is it any wonder that the divorce rate is where it is? As Rabbi Reisman once said "we live in a disposable society" if it doesn't cater to my needs get rid of it. People have to realize in marriage that it's not "fun and games" and alot of work needs to be implemented in order for one to have to have a happy marriage. AND IT'S ALL WORTH IT!
10
Mar 26, 2009 at 08:32 AM joe Says:
if physical attraction is important,which it is, why don't these kids meet at meetings, weddings,lectures etc. it worked in the good old days before the rabbis messed things up
11
Mar 26, 2009 at 08:31 AM Anonymous Says:
how about looking for girls and boys who haven't ever heard of facebook!
12
Mar 26, 2009 at 08:29 AM yakov Says:
This is a terrible tragedy.The secular street has penetrated deep in to our world.My rosh yeshiva once commented after listening to the conflicting torah appreceation and super not modest look,that a young scholar was seeking,"it sounds like your looking for a shiksa who is machshiv torah".At the time I thought it was a "good line",I have since realized that this is exactly what many are looking for.
13
Mar 26, 2009 at 08:28 AM Avrohom Abba Says:
When you go to buy a sheitel or you go to buy a baby carriage, do you look to see it's qualities, whether or not the sheitel will attract, repel, invite, send away, look short or long and other physical characteristics. The same is true when you buy a car and a desk. If you have two desks that both function as places to do paper and book work, you are going to then consider looks and price. People are not objects but similar rules apply. If you don't know anything about this girl or that girl, to you they are both girls and guys too. Then you go to the next steps not just to the next single step, but to stepS. You start to think about looks and personality traits and money and intelligence. These thoughts all rush in together. You don't act like a robot. First you think only of looks. Then you think of how nice. Next you think of money. No, that's not how it works. Many thoughts enter and they aren't on a magic list that is always followed. Your shiduchim also have no control over which attributes are considered first or fourth. They are all part of a package.
14
Mar 26, 2009 at 08:53 AM Anonymous Says:
i love Shmuley's articles, they are always very well written and thought provoking. However there are two (or more) sides to the coin. How many girls - or their mothers - wont go out with a guy because he is slightly chubby?! How many girls are only interested in a guys money??? many many girls will not go out with a guy if he is from a poor family.
Shmuley you have got to stop blaming the men, and start focusing on all aspects of this major problem.
15
Mar 26, 2009 at 08:53 AM Heshy Says:
King Solomon has a point. This is the way boys/men are wired. Instead of knocking this nature and insisting boys be more spirit oriented accept it and work with it. Otherwise you'll have sholom bayis issues of boys who dislike their wives' looks. Additionally the famous gemora in kiddushin says that it is assur for a man to be m'kadesh a lady untill he sees her. Do you think Chazal didn't know what they were talking about???
16
Mar 26, 2009 at 08:52 AM PMO Says:
I rarely find myself agreeing with this guy nowadays, but he is spot-on with this one. Its about time someone said it. I believe we can be even more blunt about it. Girls are also just as shallow, but both are intertwined.
Boys from the right pedigree, or who come from what I've heard is called "real money" are held up on a pedestal looking down over a sea of girls. These girls, in turn, feel the need to pretty themselves up on the outside because these boys will never even give them the time of day, let alone want to learn anything about them.
This has become a disgusting practice and it is COMPLETELY accepted in the community.
We had this discussion a while back in reference to the children of sex offenders in our community. People felt we should NOT turn offenders in because their children will never be wanted for shidduchim.
What ever happened to judging a boy or girl for who they are? Midos? Ahavas Torah?
Men approach dating as if they were at a brothel, and the girls are more than happy to market themselves as such.
There are stereotypes going way back about the Jewish mother who sees her son as perfect, and sees her daughter's goal in life to "marry a doctor" or "marry a lawyer". What's wrong with marrying a guy who has a successful plumbing business? One of my grandfathers was a butcher and the other worked on the docks for a fruit distributor. Neither one had much money, They were both far more "modern" than most of us here. But they had character. They had ahavas Yisroel. Neither one had much money to speak of. They never got to own a home. But if they saw a man in need, they dropped everything to help him. My papa knew who in the neighborhood didn't have enough money. In his butcher shop in the Bronx, my grandmother worked the cash register and knew she was to give them the "special price" on everything... quietly and modestly. That's who they were. They had no great pedigree to speak of. Their parents were poor as dirt and even homeless at one point. They still managed to learn and to be oseik b'mitzvah.
I was lucky enough to find someone who reminds of them. We don't have much money. We've been through good and bad. We both come from somewhat "less than frum" homes and went to modern yeshivos (which made both of us pretty undesirable, I'm sure). But my wife never had to flaunt anything to get noticed. She was the one organizing food drives for the homeless. She was the one delivering food to the convalescent home. She was the first one to volunteer to raise money when a local yeshiva didn't have the money to cover some scholarships. She was the one *I* noticed.
My take on all this is that any bochur who judges the possibility of a shidduch on looks is a fool with a grotesque sense of entitlement (either for his money or pedigree, etc). At the same time, any woman who spends time primping up like a high-priced call girl just to marry into that "rich" or "prominent" family, is also a fool.
Girls... spend as much time learning and doing acts of chesed and you will attract the RIGHT guy.
Boys... I hate to burst your bubble, but you're not quite as good a catch as your mother has always told you that you are. Spend the time to learn about someone. Don't even ask for a picture. Talk to her on the phone a few times. Ask others about her (but not her appearance). Then choose to meet her. Any other way of choosing just makes you a clown.
One day (not too far in the future) both of you will be older, fatter, wrinkled and gray... and nobody will remember, or care about how good you looked in your expensive suits... or hats... or Gucci bags... Find that one who will help you create a story that your grandchildren will proudly write about one day.
17
Mar 26, 2009 at 08:52 AM Anonymous Says:
The fact is a woman will marry an ugly man if he has money. Let's hear the other side of the coin please
18
Mar 26, 2009 at 08:52 AM Anonymous Says:
“ What kind of talmid chachom and ben torah peruses facebook!?!
If these boys are surfing the internet and visiting sites like facebook etc. there are much bigger problems to deal with than the fact that they want skinny wives - a better approach might be banning the internet for yeshiva bochrim (which I think would be common sense) - see how effective that will be to keep the influences out.
I kind of get the feeling that the author of this article likes to write outrageous articles with catchy headlines and not much substance or accuracy. ”
Face it, it just won't happen. Try banning movies or internet and no one will listen. Nowadays even young kids can get access to whatever they please. Trust me- they can always find a way.
19
Mar 26, 2009 at 08:50 AM goincrazy123 Says:
I'm a single girl in shidduchim and the way people deal with it makes me sick!
Girls become obsessed with their looks and think that if they have one pimple, no one's going to want to marry them.
It's so true what he said: that nowadays the girls are running after the boys. Many boys have lists of girls while the girls are waiting by the phone for someone to redd a shidduch. Since the boy has a list of a lot of wonderful girls with great middos, how should he choose between one or the other? Well, it's obvious- let's see who's prettier!....
In some ways this is worse than the secular or more modern way of dating. The frum boys won't even agree to go out with a girl if she's not pretty or skinny. If he would actually meet her and see her great personality- he might overlook her appearance. (as long as she looks good, just not drop dead-gorgeous) They don't even give them a chance!
I am not saying this from personal bitterness. I haven't had anyone tell me that I'm not pretty or skinny enough. However, I know all too well what goes on out there and it's horrible! And I pray that I don't marry a guy who'll just like me because of my looks. I hope he'll think I'm pretty, but that should not be his priority at all.
20
Mar 26, 2009 at 08:50 AM Huh ? ? ? ? Says:
“ What kind of talmid chachom and ben torah peruses facebook!?!
If these boys are surfing the internet and visiting sites like facebook etc. there are much bigger problems to deal with than the fact that they want skinny wives - a better approach might be banning the internet for yeshiva bochrim (which I think would be common sense) - see how effective that will be to keep the influences out.
I kind of get the feeling that the author of this article likes to write outrageous articles with catchy headlines and not much substance or accuracy. ”
Where are the inacurracies or lack of substance in the article ? The truth hurts.
21
Mar 26, 2009 at 08:47 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Please look in Tenach, King David took Bat Sheva, why? because she was very beautiful (He did not see any middos while she was bathing). Our mother Leah had good Middos; but whom did Yaakov prefer? Would Eliezer dear bring home Rivka if she weren't very pretty? (yes it says very pretty). ”
you forgot to mention Sarah and Ester
22
Mar 26, 2009 at 08:45 AM Just don't get it... Says:
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder..."
Would you rather have a gorgeous wife that treats you and the kids like yesterday's trash? Middos should be considered as well. don't get me wrong, we definately want to marry some one who is pretty, but don't let that be the first and foremost factor that you take into consideration.
A problem that the younger generations have, is theat they are watching more and more 'shtussim.' Whether it's in the home, on the internet, by a friend, grandparent, relative, or even(yes, it's true ) on a return flight from eretz yisroel after a year or two of shteiging. What is being portrayed and projected in all the films nowadays, even in the children's movies, good looking women that are scantily dressed! Let's not even talk about the films that show other situations...
If this is what our children / young adults are subject to, what can you expect of them? To go out and get married to some one that is heavy set and less attractive, but she has good middos? I don't think so!
Now imagine how a girl must feel. She is a girl with good middos, good looking features, but a little heavy, and she is being told that there are no boys available; yet all her friends are being swept up, one after the next! None available? Maybe they mean to say, no g-d fearing boys available who have true torah values!
23
Mar 26, 2009 at 08:45 AM Anonymous Says:
My comments will probably be viewed as heretical, but here goes anyhow. Rabbi Boteach attributes the over-emphasis on a girl's size to "secular values." It is possible it may be the opposite and a problem of the frum dating system. Outside of the frum world, girls size 10 or 12 get as many dates and opportunities for marriage as the size 2 and 4. Why? Because young men and women get to meet in more natural settings that aren't focused on pairing people for marriange, such as college classes, parties, jobs, etc. where they get to know each other and see their personalities before deciding who to date. The complete separation of the sexes and the position that talking to a girl, seeing a collarbone, etc. will drive a young man to uncontrollable urges may help make women appear to be sex objects and make it harder for young men to feel comfortable with women and see beyond their physiques.
24
Mar 26, 2009 at 08:44 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Please look in Tenach, King David took Bat Sheva, why? because she was very beautiful (He did not see any middos while she was bathing). Our mother Leah had good Middos; but whom did Yaakov prefer? Would Eliezer dear bring home Rivka if she weren't very pretty? (yes it says very pretty). ”
You stupid idiot. Are you comparing the holy avos to the narcissistic youth of today?
25
Mar 26, 2009 at 09:02 AM Emes iz Emes Says:
“ King Solomon has a point. This is the way boys/men are wired. Instead of knocking this nature and insisting boys be more spirit oriented accept it and work with it. Otherwise you'll have sholom bayis issues of boys who dislike their wives' looks. Additionally the famous gemora in kiddushin says that it is assur for a man to be m'kadesh a lady untill he sees her. Do you think Chazal didn't know what they were talking about??? ”
Gotta say ya have a point!!
26
Mar 26, 2009 at 09:01 AM Anonymous Says:
Dovid Hamelech took Basheva because he knew she will be the mother of Shlome.
27
Mar 26, 2009 at 08:56 AM Anonymous Says:
Good article
28
Mar 26, 2009 at 08:56 AM goincrazy123 Says:
“ if physical attraction is important,which it is, why don't these kids meet at meetings, weddings,lectures etc. it worked in the good old days before the rabbis messed things up ”
I think that's a good idea.
However, you need to realize that teenagers nowadays are not half as innocent as they used to be. Their minds work differently. When a boy and girl meet up, they usually (not always though) end up flirting away and throwing themselves at eachother. And it can get out of hand.
But if it's around other people, (I guess sort of supervised) like by shabbos meals and things like that- I think people should be more accepting of it.
29
Mar 26, 2009 at 08:55 AM KACH 613 Says:
“ What kind of talmid chachom and ben torah peruses facebook!?!
If these boys are surfing the internet and visiting sites like facebook etc. there are much bigger problems to deal with than the fact that they want skinny wives - a better approach might be banning the internet for yeshiva bochrim (which I think would be common sense) - see how effective that will be to keep the influences out.
I kind of get the feeling that the author of this article likes to write outrageous articles with catchy headlines and not much substance or accuracy. ”
Why not ban it from yourselff are you better??? If you have a problom with the Internet why are you on it??
30
Mar 26, 2009 at 09:11 AM DonielS Says:
Great article but incomplete:
- In the Hareidi crowd the first question is about money, not looks. That's the second question.
- No mention of the [resulting] increasing divorce rate between drop-dead-gorgeous couples.
[Disclosure: I met the first person I dated. Never discussed money matters before/after getting married. Happily married for 23 years.]
31
Mar 26, 2009 at 09:09 AM Chuchim from the Hagadah Says:
Today at 08:44 AM
Anonymous Says: Reply to #1 Show Quote
KING SOLOMON? Says:
“ Please look in Tenach, King David took Bat Sheva, why? because she was very beautiful (He did not see any middos while she was bathing). Our mother Leah had good Middos; but whom did Yaakov prefer? Would Eliezer dear bring home Rivka if she weren't very pretty? (yes it says very pretty). ”
You stupid idiot. Are you comparing the holy avos to the narcissistic youth of today?
..... How about you being stupid ... the torah is nitzchias and the torah wouldnt say it if it doesnt apply today... GOTCHA!!!
32
Mar 26, 2009 at 09:15 AM been around the block Says:
Let's meet halfway. A girl (or boy for that matter) doesn't need to be anorexic but doesn't need to be overweight either. Is it so much to ask a young man or woman to eat responsibly? Girls are also into looks, probably as much as boys. They refuse short boys, chubby boys, red haired boys, and boys whose beards are already very long or bushy.
I have also seen plenty of people who were not attractive or skinny get married so obviously not everyone views looks as important.
Mothers want what will make their children happy. If a mother of a boy wants a girl who will take care of herself, what is wrong with that? No one is advocating plastic surgery but proper nutrition, hair styling and a bit of make-up never hurt any girl.
33
Mar 26, 2009 at 09:20 AM Anonymous Says:
This article might have a valid point but.... first of all you speak about facebook as if that were normal, accepting the fact that a regular frum buchor would go look at facebook for a picture dwarfs the issue of wanting a beautifull girl. Secondly you speak about beauty and thin as if it were one. It is very important for a girl (and boy) to be wieght concious. It is completely legitemate not to want a fat or even slightly over wieght girl. Most frum bochurim arent looking for size 0's they just want a decent weight.
34
Mar 26, 2009 at 09:22 AM Anonymous Says:
if there is no torah there is nothing . we are infested with TV, Facebook, My Space and what not . What do you expect prom a Bocher thats on Facebook
35
Mar 26, 2009 at 09:31 AM Anonymous Says:
great article. I suggest all men read the chapter 5 of the book "garden of peace" by rav shalom arush for further enlightment.
36
Mar 26, 2009 at 09:22 AM member of the real world Says:
As a mother of two wonderful, kind-hearted, educated, and pretty girls - they are sitting while others get engaged. They are not a size 2 or 4 - but I am sure when the "bas kol" went up to the shamayim - it did not say "ploni ben ploni" is for her, but only if she is a size 2!! We all have our zivugim - and we have to do our hishtadlus and IY"H when it is the right time, the right zivug will come.
37
Mar 26, 2009 at 10:00 AM Anonymous Says:
“ As a mother of two wonderful, kind-hearted, educated, and pretty girls - they are sitting while others get engaged. They are not a size 2 or 4 - but I am sure when the "bas kol" went up to the shamayim - it did not say "ploni ben ploni" is for her, but only if she is a size 2!! We all have our zivugim - and we have to do our hishtadlus and IY"H when it is the right time, the right zivug will come. ”
we all complain about the shiduch crisis however when we are the one with the son , we act no different!! ...we are all hypocrites!! we all want our sons to marry rich beautiful girls and are picky but the second any of our daughters have shiduch issues we start kvetching about the "shiduch crisis"! .... we are all to blame as parents.
38
Mar 26, 2009 at 09:59 AM Anonymous Says:
i am a single male who finds articles such as this to be out tune with reality. Many women seem to be obsessed with how tall a man is, how thin he is, if he has a full head of hair, and how much he earns. For those women who ask isn't it good enough if a woman has good midos, ask yourself if a guy is good enough if he has good midos(but is deficient in the other things I just mentioned). It seems to me that the single women are much more fussy than the men, and that it is more often that the woman has no interest in a man she went on a date with, rather than the reverse.I have basically given up on dating, as I have not had any success at it for the longest time. I am only 5'7" and many women won't even give me a chance due to my height. Some of these women are only around 5'. Why would a 5' woman consider a 5'7" man to be too short? Why must a woman wear 4" heels and insist on dating only men over 5'10"? Why can't she wear flat shoes and date men 5'6" and over instead?
39
Mar 26, 2009 at 09:56 AM shmiel glassman Says:
comment #1- "i assume you wrote that comment for attention" - you wouldnt say a comment like that about reb moshe zatzl - do you have any clue who the avos were actually the "sefas emes " says that one of the reasons yakov avinu cried after he kissed rochel imeinu was because future genrations may interpet it incorrectly
as afras dovid hamelech see the first few pesukim in melachim aleph "vehamelech loh yedaah"
rav pam zatzl said many time s that the mitzva where the torah streses beuty is an "ESROG" WITH THE WORD HADAR rav pam further said that when the shulchan aruch enumerates the maalos of an esrog ;the "GIDUL"-physical shape is not the firsat maaloh what is "NOKI" - clean of blemishes (after murkav) rav pam said yofi is a maaloh but not the first maalos zechuso yagen aleinu
lastly ; good nights can only follow GOOD DAYS -
those in shiduchim you cant force attraction but you can be mispallel for "CHEIN"
40
Mar 26, 2009 at 09:56 AM Anonymous Says:
“ i love Shmuley's articles, they are always very well written and thought provoking. However there are two (or more) sides to the coin. How many girls - or their mothers - wont go out with a guy because he is slightly chubby?! How many girls are only interested in a guys money??? many many girls will not go out with a guy if he is from a poor family.
Shmuley you have got to stop blaming the men, and start focusing on all aspects of this major problem. ”
Sorry, no credence to your comment. As a female, I speak not only for myself, but other girls, acquaintances, etc. The girls almost NEVER ask about a boy's looks. The question often asked, quite legitimately, "Is he decent-looking?" Quite different than, "What size is she? Is her nose crooked?
As for money, seems to me and the general impression in the frum world of dating that yeshiva boys are told to pursue money. Their parents want to know how much and for how long the girl's family will support them before the first date.
Yes, a girl may very well and intelligently ask, "Does he have a parnassah?"
Wake up, don't be so defensive - it's not a contest, just trying to deal with and hopefully improve a messed up situation. I wish you mazel.
41
Mar 26, 2009 at 09:48 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Let's meet halfway. A girl (or boy for that matter) doesn't need to be anorexic but doesn't need to be overweight either. Is it so much to ask a young man or woman to eat responsibly? Girls are also into looks, probably as much as boys. They refuse short boys, chubby boys, red haired boys, and boys whose beards are already very long or bushy.
I have also seen plenty of people who were not attractive or skinny get married so obviously not everyone views looks as important.
Mothers want what will make their children happy. If a mother of a boy wants a girl who will take care of herself, what is wrong with that? No one is advocating plastic surgery but proper nutrition, hair styling and a bit of make-up never hurt any girl. ”
Little do these young men know that how a woman looks at 18 or 222 may have little relation to how they look at 30 or 40. Same goes for the girls. There's no way of knowing which guy is going to get a big belly and go prematurely bald.
42
Mar 26, 2009 at 09:48 AM Anonymous Says:
“ My comments will probably be viewed as heretical, but here goes anyhow. Rabbi Boteach attributes the over-emphasis on a girl's size to "secular values." It is possible it may be the opposite and a problem of the frum dating system. Outside of the frum world, girls size 10 or 12 get as many dates and opportunities for marriage as the size 2 and 4. Why? Because young men and women get to meet in more natural settings that aren't focused on pairing people for marriange, such as college classes, parties, jobs, etc. where they get to know each other and see their personalities before deciding who to date. The complete separation of the sexes and the position that talking to a girl, seeing a collarbone, etc. will drive a young man to uncontrollable urges may help make women appear to be sex objects and make it harder for young men to feel comfortable with women and see beyond their physiques. ”
How sadly true
43
Mar 26, 2009 at 09:45 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Let's meet halfway. A girl (or boy for that matter) doesn't need to be anorexic but doesn't need to be overweight either. Is it so much to ask a young man or woman to eat responsibly? Girls are also into looks, probably as much as boys. They refuse short boys, chubby boys, red haired boys, and boys whose beards are already very long or bushy.
I have also seen plenty of people who were not attractive or skinny get married so obviously not everyone views looks as important.
Mothers want what will make their children happy. If a mother of a boy wants a girl who will take care of herself, what is wrong with that? No one is advocating plastic surgery but proper nutrition, hair styling and a bit of make-up never hurt any girl. ”
Not all people who are overweight don't eat responsibly. Sometimes its just genetics. They also grow up in a culture that discourages sports and outdoor exercise.
44
Mar 26, 2009 at 09:44 AM Realist Says:
All true. However, you cannot fight this with logical arguments. Attraction is emotional and cannot be won over by a logical argument. It comes from the outside world, true. but it is here, and you will not get it to leave with logic. As someone who recently got married after many years of being single, I can tell you, this is not the answer. You cannot win someone over. He will have to come to this realization by himself. The arguments are counter-productive, they generally make someone in this position just write off the person arguing with them.
45
Mar 26, 2009 at 09:42 AM I have the answer Says:
It's the seminaries! they put these dumb ideologies into girls and put pressure on them to marry a certain kind of guy, get married two days after seminary, and if not they will get old gray and dye alone - AS FOR BOYS ASKING ABOUT SHAPE AND SIZE FIRST - DUH! men are going to be men and Torah knows that more the anyone else. That is why we have all these rules and regulations. as for the shiduch crises STOP BEING SO DARN CHOOSY!!!
46
Mar 26, 2009 at 09:39 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Today at 08:44 AM
Anonymous Says: Reply to #1 Show Quote
KING SOLOMON? Says:
“ Please look in Tenach, King David took Bat Sheva, why? because she was very beautiful (He did not see any middos while she was bathing). Our mother Leah had good Middos; but whom did Yaakov prefer? Would Eliezer dear bring home Rivka if she weren't very pretty? (yes it says very pretty). ”
You stupid idiot. Are you comparing the holy avos to the narcissistic youth of today?
..... How about you being stupid ... the torah is nitzchias and the torah wouldnt say it if it doesnt apply today... GOTCHA!!! ”
true, but somehow, i doubt rivka immenu insisted on photos of rochel and leah before allowing yaakov to date them and see. nor can i imagine eliezer sending avrohom a picture before bringing rivka. sure the torah tells us we should marry people who we are physically attracted to, but to not even give someone a chance because of a picture (and by the way, the camera always makes people look heavier than they are)? this is certainly not the intention! and our avos would have never married our imahos if they hadn't been at least (if not much much more) beautiful on the inside as they were on the outside. if you give the person a chance, you may even find that they become prettier and prettier the more you get to know them.
47
Mar 26, 2009 at 09:37 AM stop complaining and act Says:
to the writer of this article: i would like to know how your dating experience was if you are married and if you are not well thab how about you be the first to marry a girl that is not your size and is unattractive. how is a marriage supposed to last if every morning you wake up and look the the person lying next to you and you have absolutely zero attraction to. if you suggest we do all this than the man will be walking down the street looking at all the other women and thinkong about them and that can destroy the marriage.
"looks are not everyting, but without them its nothing"
48
Mar 26, 2009 at 09:35 AM BP Mom Says:
“ My comments will probably be viewed as heretical, but here goes anyhow. Rabbi Boteach attributes the over-emphasis on a girl's size to "secular values." It is possible it may be the opposite and a problem of the frum dating system. Outside of the frum world, girls size 10 or 12 get as many dates and opportunities for marriage as the size 2 and 4. Why? Because young men and women get to meet in more natural settings that aren't focused on pairing people for marriange, such as college classes, parties, jobs, etc. where they get to know each other and see their personalities before deciding who to date. The complete separation of the sexes and the position that talking to a girl, seeing a collarbone, etc. will drive a young man to uncontrollable urges may help make women appear to be sex objects and make it harder for young men to feel comfortable with women and see beyond their physiques. ”
You couldn't have said it better.....
49
Mar 26, 2009 at 10:05 AM Anonymous Says:
This is not a new phenomenon, or a secular thing. This is the way G-D created (men and women). Now it may be something that people should work on, and strive for (to see past the outer appearence), but it's deffinately not a new thing, and I don't know why anyone is suprised at this.
50
Mar 26, 2009 at 10:25 AM Anonymous Says:
I am a mom of 2 eligible children, one of each sex, with the others already married. I was a size 6 when I got married at 20. I havent been a size 6 in at least 20 years. I am being open minded about suitable shidduchim for my available son. I will look at a girl that is 'rubenesque', because these things do change. But, I still do want someone that will appeal to my son...
51
Mar 26, 2009 at 10:21 AM The Truth Says:
What is the point of blaming & giving more reasons how messed up our society is and write more articles on this?!
The real need is for real solutions.
Get wit it.
We can no longer assume people are altruistic and only living spiritual idealistic lives, we are human afterall. Lets call a spade a spade - Boys and girls look for looks and girls and boys look for money. What it means is that we need to educate people to look a little below the surface and into the future - what will be when the money runs out and the looks fade - are you still interested or will you get a divorce. Not everyone has money (very few today left) and not everyone has the looks - yourself included! We need to instill into our children from an early age - even preschool, that life is not just about ourself and our immediate gratification; life is to improve on our middos which should lessen our gashmiusdika look on the world. Hopefully after 18 years of education, people will realize there is a book beyond the cover. There is no quick fix to anything, but a little more maturity into getting married will go far.
52
Mar 26, 2009 at 10:20 AM Moishe Groinem Says:
Looks like this epidemic can also be credited to the filth of the internet... A YESHIVAH BUCHER spending bein hasdurim on facebook I would say his entire loimdus is just inferier. & he's looking for an equal match....
53
Mar 26, 2009 at 10:31 AM Shmuli Says:
I heard a nice Moshel:
One had to travel from place A to B and had two cars in front of him, One beautiful Bentley with all the luxuries One would love to have, the other was a Bashed up Toyota Corrola 98 with broken air conditioning and heating. The choice would have been obvious, but the problem was the Bentley was traveling from A to D (not B).
With shidduchim its the same, we should look for a person with the same goals and values, The Bentley won't help you if its not getting you where you want to go!
55
Mar 26, 2009 at 10:35 AM Anonymous Says:
{They may study Gemara and Chassidus for fifteen years but clearly the light of a G-dly life is not necessarily penetrating their souls or altering their world-views}
This is what happens when we stop learning FROM the Torah. We just use it to promote ourselves and use it only when it's convenient.
{How can we in the Jewish community who love learning suddenly look at a woman and see all cover and no book?}
All these issues with women are due to our so called educators. All they teach us all day about women is "tznius, tznius & tznius" and how she is supposed to look and how men are NOT supposed to look at her. Do they EVER teach you how men should (LOOK) at women, why Hashem created (such a "unholy" wasteful human being, good for nothing except for having baby's) women , what qualities, midos and character a yiddishe woman should possess? How a man & woman are both partners in creating a beautiful Yiddishe home?
Having said what i said, after 120 G-d will hold you responsible. It's your duty in this world to educate yourself. We have the biggest collection of seforim in history translated in all necessary languages. Go out and educate yourself, cause ultimately you're the one responsible for your self.
56
Mar 26, 2009 at 10:27 AM do not comprimise Says:
“ i am a single male who finds articles such as this to be out tune with reality. Many women seem to be obsessed with how tall a man is, how thin he is, if he has a full head of hair, and how much he earns. For those women who ask isn't it good enough if a woman has good midos, ask yourself if a guy is good enough if he has good midos(but is deficient in the other things I just mentioned). It seems to me that the single women are much more fussy than the men, and that it is more often that the woman has no interest in a man she went on a date with, rather than the reverse.I have basically given up on dating, as I have not had any success at it for the longest time. I am only 5'7" and many women won't even give me a chance due to my height. Some of these women are only around 5'. Why would a 5' woman consider a 5'7" man to be too short? Why must a woman wear 4" heels and insist on dating only men over 5'10"? Why can't she wear flat shoes and date men 5'6" and over instead?
”
because maybe she likes wearing heels why should she have to comprimise if you have to comprimise in order to get a date your already starting off on a bad note and your gonna have bad expectations before even seeing you i understand its difficult i myself am single and refuse to get into the "shidduch" seen because we as a "society" made it a "crisis" because everyone is looked down on if they try and meet a girl on their own or because they have to watch every little thing that they do because g-d forbid you do something that will cause them to talk and ruin your shidduch. people we did this to ourselves and thats the bottom line. and to all the guys and girls out there please do not lower your expectations before even meeting someone there is no need to comprimise
57
Mar 26, 2009 at 10:13 AM Tanna Kamma Says:
“ What kind of talmid chachom and ben torah peruses facebook!?!
If these boys are surfing the internet and visiting sites like facebook etc. there are much bigger problems to deal with than the fact that they want skinny wives - a better approach might be banning the internet for yeshiva bochrim (which I think would be common sense) - see how effective that will be to keep the influences out.
I kind of get the feeling that the author of this article likes to write outrageous articles with catchy headlines and not much substance or accuracy. ”
If you think this writer is writing without substance or accuracy, take a look at comment # 1 ("king solomon?"), it is for the likes of him that Chazal caution against learning Tanach with Am Haaratzim...
58
Mar 26, 2009 at 10:38 AM izzy Says:
I like how guys like # 52 criticize buchrim for going on the the internet while these phony's are on the internet them self's no wonder we have such problem with our children.
59
Mar 26, 2009 at 10:49 AM Anonymous Says:
“ because maybe she likes wearing heels why should she have to comprimise if you have to comprimise in order to get a date your already starting off on a bad note and your gonna have bad expectations before even seeing you i understand its difficult i myself am single and refuse to get into the "shidduch" seen because we as a "society" made it a "crisis" because everyone is looked down on if they try and meet a girl on their own or because they have to watch every little thing that they do because g-d forbid you do something that will cause them to talk and ruin your shidduch. people we did this to ourselves and thats the bottom line. and to all the guys and girls out there please do not lower your expectations before even meeting someone there is no need to comprimise ”
No need to compromise????? Those who don't compromise are likely to stay single forever.
60
Mar 26, 2009 at 11:29 AM Passaic Yid Says:
“ Please look in Tenach, King David took Bat Sheva, why? because she was very beautiful (He did not see any middos while she was bathing). Our mother Leah had good Middos; but whom did Yaakov prefer? Would Eliezer dear bring home Rivka if she weren't very pretty? (yes it says very pretty). ”
You dont know what you are talking about. He saw b'ruach ha'kodesh that he was supposed to marry her and "couldnt understand" why she wasnt. This was all a punishment for asking HKBH to test him. Go onto Kol Haloshon and listen to the last 4 or five novi shiurim given by HaRav Yosef Viener. Maybe you will learn something???
61
Mar 26, 2009 at 11:27 AM Anonymous Says:
“ You are looking in the Torah in a very dangerous way to support your corrupt outlook and perpective of life. And I say dangerous because that's what it is....... ”
id rather walk through life in a dagerous way then simply walk around blind . u are blinded by your chenyokishkiet . good luck buddy
62
Mar 26, 2009 at 11:24 AM PMO Says:
Someone just reminded of a story a friend once told. His rebbe was talking about the concept of gluttony - in all aspects of life. At one point (and I don't know the question that prompted it) he told an overweight boy in the class "you better do some exercising or nobody good will ever want you for a shidduch and you'll end up married to some fat girl named Shprintza" (which I take offense to because my favorite Aunt growing up was named Shprintza). To me, that sums this all up. I remember when I heard the story the first time I didn't believe it, until others in the shiur were telling the same story and the rebbe had to make a public apology to everyone for it.
63
Mar 26, 2009 at 11:23 AM Anonymous Says:
Preferring women that are pretty is not a goyish thing. It is a human thing. You have to be stupid to blame this phenomenon on "secular dating values Invading the frum community". It's more about hormones invading the minds of young men, and God in his wisdom made the human body like that for a reason. It's because prettyer, healthier looking women are more likely to be fertile.
64
Mar 26, 2009 at 11:21 AM AuthenticSatmar Says:
This is just another stupid article by a "Rabbi" who thinks he's going to fix all the worlds problems. His assumption is that a man wants a women of beauty because of the goyishe influences, when in fact that's not the case. In halacha it clearly states the need for a man to be attracted to a women, and that's why he must see her once at least for a second.
If personality is more important than looks, what can be accomplished with a look of one second? Nothing. In fact - human nature is that if one is physically attracted to his wife, he will then find love in her, and the personality issues are themselves resolved, and he will treat her with respect.
"Rabbi" Shmuelly has no right to make away what is human nature and clear halacha.
He has once again declared himself king, and made a lousy argument.
As for the girls, there is no excuse for a single girl to be 40 lbs overweight. When a bochur sees a girl, he is not looking at facial features, he is judging her body. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. As for weight, there is no way overweight is attractive. The same way a girl in shiduchim won't go out without makeup and hair she needs to pay attention to her weight.
65
Mar 26, 2009 at 11:38 AM Anonymous Says:
As a woman, I take offense to women being compared to a car as some of the knuckle-dragging idiots have done in previous posts.
There is a problem in that there is a mechitzah around every facet of life in the frum world. Single men do not get to interact with single women, except for the purpose of getting married, and so neither group gets to see the other as they really are. Given this segregation, all people can use as initial criteria for choosing a partner are looks and money.
One other point that people seem to be reluctant to talk about is the immaturity of both the men and the women, or as many others have said in their posts, the "boys" and the "girls". If you see yourself or a potential partner as a child, then how can you be ready for marriage? Just because you've attained X number of years doesn't mean that you're emotionally mature enough to make that kind of commitment. I know too many people who married young and are either miserable or divorced.
66
Mar 26, 2009 at 11:33 AM goincrazy123 Says:
“ Let's meet halfway. A girl (or boy for that matter) doesn't need to be anorexic but doesn't need to be overweight either. Is it so much to ask a young man or woman to eat responsibly? Girls are also into looks, probably as much as boys. They refuse short boys, chubby boys, red haired boys, and boys whose beards are already very long or bushy.
I have also seen plenty of people who were not attractive or skinny get married so obviously not everyone views looks as important.
Mothers want what will make their children happy. If a mother of a boy wants a girl who will take care of herself, what is wrong with that? No one is advocating plastic surgery but proper nutrition, hair styling and a bit of make-up never hurt any girl. ”
The thing is that 99% of the girls in shidduchim already do the basic things. They will wear makeup, dress up, diet, go for facials and waxings, blow their hair...... But they are still being rejected for not being pretty enough. These things just enhance your look, they can't change it.
67
Mar 26, 2009 at 11:19 AM Anonymous Says:
While the focus on appearance is a non-Jewish value that penetrated our community. We have had vulnerability to such outside influences, and many efforts to insulate our lives, families, and children have not been completely successful.
There is a greater issue here, and the article seems to mention it, though perhaps giving it less than the appropriate concern. The issues we discuss when involved in shidduchim, whether for ourselves or our children are frankly weird. The jokes about the plastic tablecloths on Shabbos are not even funny. I have observed the topics that are bantered about in proposals for shidduchim that omit any reference to one’s middos and personality, and are sickly preoccupied with levush. Having fielded questions about such trivia, I found the lack of attention to the real features offensive. Anyone can purchase any type of bekeshe, shtreimel, hat, socks, and trimmings. A girl should not be looking to marry a uniform. It is equally ridiculous in the other direction. But since we have confused our priorities, placing appearance as high as we do should not be a big surprise.
68
Mar 26, 2009 at 11:17 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Not all people who are overweight don't eat responsibly. Sometimes its just genetics. They also grow up in a culture that discourages sports and outdoor exercise. ”
Genetics may give a person a predisposition to be overweight, however it doesn't make them overweight. It means that they might need to put more effort into controlling their weight. Certain illnesses will cause people to be overweight. Often there is treatment for many of these diseases. I was overweight for many many years due to thyroid problems I had from having mercury toxicity due to having many mercury dental fillings. After the fillings were replaced, my weight went to normal.
69
Mar 26, 2009 at 11:17 AM Yossi Says:
Halevai someone should chase my son.
70
Mar 26, 2009 at 11:16 AM Anonymous Says:
Why do people have to be so negative and argumentive? whether its criticizing an article or a comment that was written, why can't we just be more civil and disagree respectively. I see people who curse out others or make fun of others on this site and I pray that this is not an example of real life. Why can't I see more ahavas yisroel and less sinas chinam when having a discussion in an open forum such as this one? Try to be gentler more understanding even if u strongly disagree with someone else's comment or point of view. There are almost alsways two sides to every issue or story. Don't generalize and lump together all people whether its in regards to regular memebers of Klal Yisroel or Rabbanim. Let's try to give people the benefit of the doubt and not assume people knowingly or purposely did wrong. Let's share our ideas,views and opinions with others in a way that will not violate any of the ideals or mitzvos of the Torah. Let's try to be more forgiving and understanding of our fellow Jew. Let's agree to disagree on subjects and views and opinions and ideas. Let's try to work together and encourage each other(I find that when a person comments and writes about personal problems/troubles etc. So few people comment back to try to encourage or help that person..). I b"h will try to do these things and hope many if not all the people reading this will try too.
71
Mar 26, 2009 at 11:15 AM The Truth Says:
“ because maybe she likes wearing heels why should she have to comprimise if you have to comprimise in order to get a date your already starting off on a bad note and your gonna have bad expectations before even seeing you i understand its difficult i myself am single and refuse to get into the "shidduch" seen because we as a "society" made it a "crisis" because everyone is looked down on if they try and meet a girl on their own or because they have to watch every little thing that they do because g-d forbid you do something that will cause them to talk and ruin your shidduch. people we did this to ourselves and thats the bottom line. and to all the guys and girls out there please do not lower your expectations before even meeting someone there is no need to comprimise ”
I guess you are a bochur in or recently out of yeshiva. With a bit of experience, you will see that you will get no where without compromise. No one is saying to compromise on things like tznius or if he davens at all but having expectations about looks (including wearing heels) is exactly what this article is talking about - basing dating on nairishkeit.
72
Mar 26, 2009 at 11:11 AM been around the block Says:
“ Little do these young men know that how a woman looks at 18 or 222 may have little relation to how they look at 30 or 40. Same goes for the girls. There's no way of knowing which guy is going to get a big belly and go prematurely bald. ”
It is the initial attraction that will keep a young man interested. I don't think that very many young men who will marry an overweight girl (unless they find her attractive) just because most women gain weight eventually. The newest trend in anorexia is probably in postpartum women.
By the time she is 30 and has gained weight having children, her husband already loves her. He cannot possibly have that foresight when he is young, though. Most frum men marry at an age where looking 10years down the road is not something that they can do. Also to #43, when there is something "genetic" that is an even greater obstacle to a shidduch than when it is simply bad eating habits. The person with bad habits can change the habits. Those with a genetic weight problem might be overweight no matter what they do. If someone considers overweight to be unattractive, it will be hard to convince them otherwise.
Look, it is what it is. Years ago in Russia, thin women were not considered for shidduchim. Thinness was a sign of poverty. Most Americans today do not consider extra weight to be attractive.
73
Mar 26, 2009 at 11:11 AM Anonymous Says:
Lets be fair and honest, a rich pretty girl is on a pedastal picking and choosing as much as the boys
74
Mar 26, 2009 at 11:09 AM Anonymous Says:
I try hard to give back and set up the boys and girls that I know. However, after speaking with mothers of many boys, unfortunately unsually the ones known as the really "good" and "desirable" boys (the ones with the lists) or even more often the most "yeshivish," I get really turned off. I agree that attraction is VITAL to a relationship, but how in the world can you judge someone else's potential attraction? I can tell you that a girl is pretty, gorgeous, attractive... but that does not mean your son will think so. I can think a girl is plain, and your son will think she is as beautiful as a model. A lot more than just physicality goes into attraction. We all know of couples where the mother of the boy if she was honest with herself would say that I really didn't think that was the kind of looks he went for. Maybe they weren't, but the full package made her seem like a princess. I guess I am most frustrated by these innane questions that the mother needs to know her son will be attracted to the girl before they even go out. How can she possibly know that or even for that matter, how can he know that before he ever meets or speaks to the lovely young lady?
75
Mar 26, 2009 at 11:06 AM Anonymous Says:
i never agree with this guy but for once i agree. however the lack of tznius in society is a big reason men want a very good looking wife and act so superficially. even for a married man it is hard to have shmeiras einayam even amongst frum women. anyone who goes to a chassunah even a "very yeshivishe chassunah" will see that the young women today dont dress nearly as tzniusly as the previous generation. Why should i be stuck with the ugly fat wife when everyone else has a beautiful put together wife?
76
Mar 26, 2009 at 10:59 AM Anonymous Says:
Wow so much to write about I don't know where to start. First of all about the guy looking on facebook let's all do the mitzvah of being dan lekaf zechus and assume someone else showed him the picture(his sister,shadchan etc. Use ur own imagination remember its a mitzvah!). Second of all for all of those upset that there seem to be people both guys and girls who are too into looks, I say then be thankful ur not marrying them because they don't sound like people u want to marry anyway. Parents unfortunately will always be choosy if they have the option and I sometimes think that because there are so many good-great girls out there and not as many good-great guys(I think girls are generally better than girls when it comes to things like midos,hashkafa I.e.the important things in life.. feel free to differ btw)that allows some mothers to be more picky if they really do have a fine son while others may just hype up their son by being very selective(yes I have seen cases where I was told that guy is top stuff and I knew him personally and was shocked and then people were surprised by who he married while I was not..). Looks are certainly important as many have previously mentioned but I'm sure everyone will agree it should not be the key factor unless they have dated and just couldn't see each other living together. Also maybe the guys have other options and may decide that if all else is equal why not go with the prettier girl. As for money I'm sure there are girls who will marry ugly guys and sometimes vice versa where maybe the money is more important to that person than their partners looks. We all want to look good for our spouses and hope they will do the same. As one mother commented she has emunah that the right boy is out there for her girls(I'm sure he is and they will be good ones since u seem to have the right mindframe and I'm sure ur davening..)And I think we all have to daven to make the right decisions whether as parents or singles when we say yes or no and just try to give things a chance to develope and not be so closeminded and critical and choosy regarding things that don't really matter both in the long run and short run. Btw just as a matter of fact I think guys are more into the physical attributes of a prospective partner while the girls are more into the emotional and mental attributes but that does not mean that there are no guys who want a good warm caring smart funny etc. girleven if she's not pretty and there are girls who do care more about looks than other things when it comes to looking for a husband. DONT GENERALIZE EVER! Of course we all do but let's try not to too much and remeber there are all types and we are not in control Hashem is! we have to do our hishtadlus and work on ourselves and try to educate our children to know what's important in life but if we really do that we can only daven and remember that whatever Hashem does is for the best. I wish everyone hatzlacha and mazal and nachas (sorry for the long post..I could have gone on but I figured this was enough for now)
77
Mar 26, 2009 at 11:49 AM Anonymous Says:
We can sit and discuss the problems of the world, but we're not going to change it. Boys will be attracted to pretty girls and it is important to marry someone who you are attracted to.
What troubles me is that the mothers are obsessed with how the girls look. THAT is a major problem.
Also, I think that boys should agree to go out with a girl even if she's not so pretty because sometimes a boy can be extremely attracted to a not-so-attracted girl. It can take them by surprise. I've seen it happen. But if he dates her and he's not attracted to her, then he has every right to say no.
78
Mar 26, 2009 at 11:40 AM Anonymous Says:
“ You stupid idiot. Are you comparing the holy avos to the narcissistic youth of today? ”
u are the idiot . we learn chumash so we can learn from it not choose what we want to learn from . yes we should always look at the avos as role models . You dont like that the torah calls the imaos by thier first names like other crazy people who refuse to write the kallahs name on the wedding invatation? grow up . no wonder we have shidduch issues .
79
Mar 26, 2009 at 11:51 AM Anonymous Says:
“ This is just another stupid article by a "Rabbi" who thinks he's going to fix all the worlds problems. His assumption is that a man wants a women of beauty because of the goyishe influences, when in fact that's not the case. In halacha it clearly states the need for a man to be attracted to a women, and that's why he must see her once at least for a second.
If personality is more important than looks, what can be accomplished with a look of one second? Nothing. In fact - human nature is that if one is physically attracted to his wife, he will then find love in her, and the personality issues are themselves resolved, and he will treat her with respect.
"Rabbi" Shmuelly has no right to make away what is human nature and clear halacha.
He has once again declared himself king, and made a lousy argument.
As for the girls, there is no excuse for a single girl to be 40 lbs overweight. When a bochur sees a girl, he is not looking at facial features, he is judging her body. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. As for weight, there is no way overweight is attractive. The same way a girl in shiduchim won't go out without makeup and hair she needs to pay attention to her weight. ”
there is no reason why a boy can dress like a shlub and expect to marry a pretty girl either . Plenty overweight boys with beer bellies and no one says boo about them because hes the best boy in BMG and gives a chabura to 20 guys while his naval is sticking out because he is so fat
80
Mar 26, 2009 at 11:50 AM Anonymous Says:
"As a woman, I take offense to women being compared to a car as some of the knuckle-dragging idiots have done in previous posts. "
Many men do want children though. The age and health status of a woman are very important when it comes to having children.
"I know too many people who married young and are either miserable or divorced."
Perhaps many people have unrealistically high expectations for marriage. Things will not be perfect, and there will be problems. The key is compromise, and being happy when things are far from perfect.
81
Mar 26, 2009 at 11:55 AM Rippin Pinchas Says:
Well written article and many strong points. Shlomo Hamelech said sheker hachen vehevel hayofi. However, the first 5000 or 6000 times I heard about this subject I was interested. Now, as unfortunate as it is, I have become numb. Kudos to the shtadlanim that are trying to change the mentality, but I have lost interest. This is probably the first article I have read on the subject in 4 years. It will probably be a while for the next one.
82
Mar 26, 2009 at 11:54 AM Anonymous Says:
Don't we all know that beauty is in the eye of beholder. What seems beautiful does not mean attraction. Sometimes the way a person smiles or glances at you or walks can change the whole prospective. A girl can be beautiful but will leave you cold as fish because she does not have charms or simply not for you. So when you ask a third person whether the girl is beautiful does not do any justice because it is a very individual thing.
83
Mar 26, 2009 at 11:58 AM do not comprimise Says:
“ I guess you are a bochur in or recently out of yeshiva. With a bit of experience, you will see that you will get no where without compromise. No one is saying to compromise on things like tznius or if he davens at all but having expectations about looks (including wearing heels) is exactly what this article is talking about - basing dating on nairishkeit. ”
first of all im 25 years old and am a doctor believe it or not i couldnt careless and no i dont sit and learn. if a girl wants to wear heels who are you to tell her not to and its ok to comprimise on things once youve gone out a couple of times but why lower your standards before you even meet someone is what im trying to say. girls please comment who makes more comprimses the girl or the boy??
84
Mar 26, 2009 at 12:23 PM Anonymous Says:
“ first of all im 25 years old and am a doctor believe it or not i couldnt careless and no i dont sit and learn. if a girl wants to wear heels who are you to tell her not to and its ok to comprimise on things once youve gone out a couple of times but why lower your standards before you even meet someone is what im trying to say. girls please comment who makes more comprimses the girl or the boy?? ”
I can tell you don't have a doctorate in English. I'm just wondering what type of doctor you are.
85
Mar 26, 2009 at 12:21 PM koolchossid Says:
chassidim in face booK?
would a chassidishe girl put her pic in facebook?
btw
the Gemara says that the person who you are going to marry is decreed before you are born
anyways, boys are getting marry and cannot marry more than 1 girl
i see this as an opportunity for many boys not so good looking to be able to marry a chassidishe girl
86
Mar 26, 2009 at 12:15 PM Grammarian Says:
In reply to #83:
Doctor, my eye. You can't even write English properly.
87
Mar 26, 2009 at 12:15 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I try hard to give back and set up the boys and girls that I know. However, after speaking with mothers of many boys, unfortunately unsually the ones known as the really "good" and "desirable" boys (the ones with the lists) or even more often the most "yeshivish," I get really turned off. I agree that attraction is VITAL to a relationship, but how in the world can you judge someone else's potential attraction? I can tell you that a girl is pretty, gorgeous, attractive... but that does not mean your son will think so. I can think a girl is plain, and your son will think she is as beautiful as a model. A lot more than just physicality goes into attraction. We all know of couples where the mother of the boy if she was honest with herself would say that I really didn't think that was the kind of looks he went for. Maybe they weren't, but the full package made her seem like a princess. I guess I am most frustrated by these innane questions that the mother needs to know her son will be attracted to the girl before they even go out. How can she possibly know that or even for that matter, how can he know that before he ever meets or speaks to the lovely young lady? ”
"Also, I think that boys should agree to go out with a girl even if she's not so pretty"
Only if women agree to date men who are not so tall, not so successful, and not so thin. It works both ways.
88
Mar 26, 2009 at 12:13 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I try hard to give back and set up the boys and girls that I know. However, after speaking with mothers of many boys, unfortunately unsually the ones known as the really "good" and "desirable" boys (the ones with the lists) or even more often the most "yeshivish," I get really turned off. I agree that attraction is VITAL to a relationship, but how in the world can you judge someone else's potential attraction? I can tell you that a girl is pretty, gorgeous, attractive... but that does not mean your son will think so. I can think a girl is plain, and your son will think she is as beautiful as a model. A lot more than just physicality goes into attraction. We all know of couples where the mother of the boy if she was honest with herself would say that I really didn't think that was the kind of looks he went for. Maybe they weren't, but the full package made her seem like a princess. I guess I am most frustrated by these innane questions that the mother needs to know her son will be attracted to the girl before they even go out. How can she possibly know that or even for that matter, how can he know that before he ever meets or speaks to the lovely young lady? ”
"I can tell you that a girl is pretty, gorgeous, attractive... but that does not mean your son will think so. I can think a girl is plain, and your son will think she is as beautiful as a model. A lot more than just physicality goes into attraction."
That is why some men might ask about her dress size or weight and height. They want some sort of objective measurement of whether or not she is so overweight that it might impact her health or her ability to have children. Many women might see this as being too superficial, however I think it is a legitimate concern, as long as a man doesn't automatically reject a woman for being 20 pounds or less overweight. If she is more than 40 pounds overseight, that is a different matter. While excess weight can be lost, a woman needs to want to do so badly enough to make permanent changes in her lifestyle. A weight problem can also get worse. There are some overweight women who would not consider dating an overweight man. I have been overweight in the past, but am not overweight now. I would be willing to date women who are up to around 30 or 40 pounds overweight. Above that, the excess weight does typically have a significant impact on health and lifestyle. There are many men who won't even consider dating a woman who is 20 pounds overweight.
89
Mar 26, 2009 at 12:09 PM Anonymous Says:
“ first of all im 25 years old and am a doctor believe it or not i couldnt careless and no i dont sit and learn. if a girl wants to wear heels who are you to tell her not to and its ok to comprimise on things once youve gone out a couple of times but why lower your standards before you even meet someone is what im trying to say. girls please comment who makes more comprimses the girl or the boy?? ”
If you are a doctor it must not be a phd in English Grammar you probably don't even know what MD stands for you liar.
90
Mar 26, 2009 at 12:02 PM Wrong!! Says:
“ Preferring women that are pretty is not a goyish thing. It is a human thing. You have to be stupid to blame this phenomenon on "secular dating values Invading the frum community". It's more about hormones invading the minds of young men, and God in his wisdom made the human body like that for a reason. It's because prettyer, healthier looking women are more likely to be fertile. ”
About One Hundred years ago to be on the heavy side was attractive, better in the gemara's times we see that there was a tachshit that woman used to wear to emphasize a double chin............... So it it is perhaps the American "IDOL" that is implanted in us unfortanitly MOSHIACH NOW!!
91
Mar 26, 2009 at 12:32 PM Anonymous Says:
to solve this ,all mothers should do what mine does, she says that any girl that agrees to marry me is prob to good for me. my mother keeps me grounded and she doesn't treat me like a pampered prince.then again she prob treats me like this bec im in college. lol
92
Mar 26, 2009 at 12:32 PM Raphael Kaufman Says:
“ Dovid Hamelech took Basheva because he knew she will be the mother of Shlome. ”
The fact that she was beautiful also didn't hurt.
93
Mar 26, 2009 at 12:32 PM anonymos Says:
“ Please look in Tenach, King David took Bat Sheva, why? because she was very beautiful (He did not see any middos while she was bathing). Our mother Leah had good Middos; but whom did Yaakov prefer? Would Eliezer dear bring home Rivka if she weren't very pretty? (yes it says very pretty). ”
"sheker hachen vehevel hayofi"
how could a yid give such a pshat on the torah i feel that after such a sentence its irelevant to explain the concept of yofy in the torah
"youre talking about the avos hakedoshem "dont try to put the torah in our material and megushimdig life"watch out its a sin"im sure you didnt mean that i want to be dan lekaf zechus
94
Mar 26, 2009 at 12:31 PM Anonymous Says:
"There is a problem in that there is a mechitzah around every facet of life in the frum world. Single men do not get to interact with single women, except for the purpose of getting married, "
The men are easy enough to find. Where can the women be found? If a woman want to meet men, she could join a synagogue chess club. There will be many men there, and very few or no women. Since women tend to be so selective and many men are tired of so much rejection, it makes sense for women to take a much more assertive role in dating, and approach the men they are interested in and show interest, rather than just waiting for men to approach them. Often a man might not approach a woman he is interested in since he feels it is unlikely that she will be interested in him.
95
Mar 26, 2009 at 12:44 PM Anonymous Says:
Or maybe on the whole, things always happened this way, we just went around it by forcing people to get married whether they liked it or not because the parents said so. Guys want pretty girls, and girls want capable husbands, and when those run out or in small commodity, you scrape the bottom of the barrel or you try to appeal more.
In the shtetles the guys would just grow up, get married at 14-17 with no idea what to expect and not caring who they married and that was it. Of course they weren't fussing about who, because at 14-17 anything that lives and breathes is enough for the hormones to be happy. They had no chance to think on their own and question that anyone could be better for them than the person in front of them.
Today, people are getting married 24-28 or later for many reasons. They've grown up and are more independent, but spent the last 10 years dealing with hormones with no outlet. In their mind, they develop the perfect woman over and over in their heads in anticipation. Until suddenly they're 25 and not only have no idea what a normal girl looks like or has personality-wise (they never talk to them), but their families push the EXACT SAME THING! "You deserve the perfect girl" blah blah blah. It's better than the "Just get married attitude, who cares as long as you can have a baby it doesn't matter", but you have to deal with the growing pains appropriately by realizing the truth:
THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS THE PERFECT MAN OR WOMAN!
96
Mar 26, 2009 at 12:44 PM Anonymous Says:
“ "I can tell you that a girl is pretty, gorgeous, attractive... but that does not mean your son will think so. I can think a girl is plain, and your son will think she is as beautiful as a model. A lot more than just physicality goes into attraction."
That is why some men might ask about her dress size or weight and height. They want some sort of objective measurement of whether or not she is so overweight that it might impact her health or her ability to have children. Many women might see this as being too superficial, however I think it is a legitimate concern, as long as a man doesn't automatically reject a woman for being 20 pounds or less overweight. If she is more than 40 pounds overseight, that is a different matter. While excess weight can be lost, a woman needs to want to do so badly enough to make permanent changes in her lifestyle. A weight problem can also get worse. There are some overweight women who would not consider dating an overweight man. I have been overweight in the past, but am not overweight now. I would be willing to date women who are up to around 30 or 40 pounds overweight. Above that, the excess weight does typically have a significant impact on health and lifestyle. There are many men who won't even consider dating a woman who is 20 pounds overweight. ”
"That is why some men might ask about her dress size or weight and height. "
I actually tend to agree that people have "types." Asking a specific dress size is wrong, since clearly every person's build will make the number on a tag look different. But in general sense, is she of normal build - okay, I could hear that without necessarily agreeing with it. But asking me if she is drop dead gorgeous or will my son find her attractive - how should I know? Further how will you know? In fact, I have had mothers tell me, my sons only want brunettes or only like blonds, when they never bothered to find out that their sons thought redheads to be attractive. What I was trying to express is that these mother's are asking for assurances of attraction which is ridiculous and that they are imposing their ideas of what is beautiful without even consulting their children.
97
Mar 26, 2009 at 01:01 PM PMO Says:
“ "There is a problem in that there is a mechitzah around every facet of life in the frum world. Single men do not get to interact with single women, except for the purpose of getting married, "
The men are easy enough to find. Where can the women be found? If a woman want to meet men, she could join a synagogue chess club. There will be many men there, and very few or no women. Since women tend to be so selective and many men are tired of so much rejection, it makes sense for women to take a much more assertive role in dating, and approach the men they are interested in and show interest, rather than just waiting for men to approach them. Often a man might not approach a woman he is interested in since he feels it is unlikely that she will be interested in him. ”
#94 - Our communities do not have these concepts of dating. There are prohibitions regarding fraternization. A man does not just approach a woman or vice versa. We are talking about traditional frum dating. To put it simply - it is matchmaking.
98
Mar 26, 2009 at 01:00 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Please look in Tenach, King David took Bat Sheva, why? because she was very beautiful (He did not see any middos while she was bathing). Our mother Leah had good Middos; but whom did Yaakov prefer? Would Eliezer dear bring home Rivka if she weren't very pretty? (yes it says very pretty). ”
wow i cant believe you still learn this on a second grade level . learn the gemara in kesubos and the other mifarsim, they say that it was more than looks that caused dovid hamelach to "stray" . and please try not to compare us to the avot they were like malachim and if you think that they were only interested in looks then you should find a good chavrusa and learn the chumash in depth.
99
Mar 26, 2009 at 12:35 PM Anonymous Says:
“ We can sit and discuss the problems of the world, but we're not going to change it. Boys will be attracted to pretty girls and it is important to marry someone who you are attracted to.
What troubles me is that the mothers are obsessed with how the girls look. THAT is a major problem.
Also, I think that boys should agree to go out with a girl even if she's not so pretty because sometimes a boy can be extremely attracted to a not-so-attracted girl. It can take them by surprise. I've seen it happen. But if he dates her and he's not attracted to her, then he has every right to say no. ”
For boys, and dating is expensive both financially and emotionally. Mothers of boys have an incentive to want to try to maximize the chances that a date will work. If a bocher has already expressed negativity toward overweight girls or states that looks are of importance to him, it would probably not pay to set him up with the type of girl that he has already stated that he would not be attracted to. Most mothers would prefer midos over looks but when the son comes home from an expensive date and says "nice girl but I'm not attracted" the mother learns not to discount appearance. Lots of mothers when hearing of a nice but plain girl say " I wish that my son would be interested but he just isn't". Unfortunately, the bochrim hear little or nothing in yeshiva about marriage and dating. Maybe if it was addressed in yeshiva, bochrim would take a different approach.
100
Mar 26, 2009 at 01:13 PM The Truth Says:
“ first of all im 25 years old and am a doctor believe it or not i couldnt careless and no i dont sit and learn. if a girl wants to wear heels who are you to tell her not to and its ok to comprimise on things once youve gone out a couple of times but why lower your standards before you even meet someone is what im trying to say. girls please comment who makes more comprimses the girl or the boy?? ”
If you are a doctor at 25 - you obviously did not go to post high school yeshiva and are not ever going to be in "the shidduch scene" so this whole article does not apply to you! While I think it is important that everyone express their own individuality, if wearing heels (or any such superficial example) is such a priority that it comes beyond anything else, there is obviously something wrong with the persons priorities. No one is saying lower your standards & go out with someone who you consider to be below par; what you need to do is reconsider your standards and realize they are ideals of your fantasy and out of touch with reality.
As for who should/does make more compromises - that depends on the standards you set yourself.
101
Mar 26, 2009 at 01:30 PM Anonymous Says:
“ #94 - Our communities do not have these concepts of dating. There are prohibitions regarding fraternization. A man does not just approach a woman or vice versa. We are talking about traditional frum dating. To put it simply - it is matchmaking. ”
"For boys, and dating is expensive both financially and emotionally"
Perhaps women should take an equal role in dating? It would be interesting if part of the time women invited men on dates, and if they treated the men.
102
Mar 26, 2009 at 01:30 PM Rochel Says:
“ I rarely find myself agreeing with this guy nowadays, but he is spot-on with this one. Its about time someone said it. I believe we can be even more blunt about it. Girls are also just as shallow, but both are intertwined.
Boys from the right pedigree, or who come from what I've heard is called "real money" are held up on a pedestal looking down over a sea of girls. These girls, in turn, feel the need to pretty themselves up on the outside because these boys will never even give them the time of day, let alone want to learn anything about them.
This has become a disgusting practice and it is COMPLETELY accepted in the community.
We had this discussion a while back in reference to the children of sex offenders in our community. People felt we should NOT turn offenders in because their children will never be wanted for shidduchim.
What ever happened to judging a boy or girl for who they are? Midos? Ahavas Torah?
Men approach dating as if they were at a brothel, and the girls are more than happy to market themselves as such.
There are stereotypes going way back about the Jewish mother who sees her son as perfect, and sees her daughter's goal in life to "marry a doctor" or "marry a lawyer". What's wrong with marrying a guy who has a successful plumbing business? One of my grandfathers was a butcher and the other worked on the docks for a fruit distributor. Neither one had much money, They were both far more "modern" than most of us here. But they had character. They had ahavas Yisroel. Neither one had much money to speak of. They never got to own a home. But if they saw a man in need, they dropped everything to help him. My papa knew who in the neighborhood didn't have enough money. In his butcher shop in the Bronx, my grandmother worked the cash register and knew she was to give them the "special price" on everything... quietly and modestly. That's who they were. They had no great pedigree to speak of. Their parents were poor as dirt and even homeless at one point. They still managed to learn and to be oseik b'mitzvah.
I was lucky enough to find someone who reminds of them. We don't have much money. We've been through good and bad. We both come from somewhat "less than frum" homes and went to modern yeshivos (which made both of us pretty undesirable, I'm sure). But my wife never had to flaunt anything to get noticed. She was the one organizing food drives for the homeless. She was the one delivering food to the convalescent home. She was the first one to volunteer to raise money when a local yeshiva didn't have the money to cover some scholarships. She was the one *I* noticed.
My take on all this is that any bochur who judges the possibility of a shidduch on looks is a fool with a grotesque sense of entitlement (either for his money or pedigree, etc). At the same time, any woman who spends time primping up like a high-priced call girl just to marry into that "rich" or "prominent" family, is also a fool.
Girls... spend as much time learning and doing acts of chesed and you will attract the RIGHT guy.
Boys... I hate to burst your bubble, but you're not quite as good a catch as your mother has always told you that you are. Spend the time to learn about someone. Don't even ask for a picture. Talk to her on the phone a few times. Ask others about her (but not her appearance). Then choose to meet her. Any other way of choosing just makes you a clown.
One day (not too far in the future) both of you will be older, fatter, wrinkled and gray... and nobody will remember, or care about how good you looked in your expensive suits... or hats... or Gucci bags... Find that one who will help you create a story that your grandchildren will proudly write about one day. ”
so true- As a girl in the shidduch parsha i a gree with you one billion percent- and I am considered a very attractive girl-However it is so dialusioning when mothers of boys only want to know
-what I look like
-If my parents are willing to support-if i have a trust fund
Boys today from the most modern to yeshivish especially the yeshivish ones "Wants a barbie doll with Donald trumps money that will allow him to learn!
Maybe the mothers of boys should wake up and realise that hey your son may not be Moshe Rabeinu after all-Maybe your son was one of the so called "Top bochurim" thatt was busted for skiping yeshiva to go on vacation without your knolledege- or the one that went to Atlantic city to gamble, or the one that hangs out all day and night in a bar!
I agree with this article one billion percent-As I am living this shidduch nightmare!
103
Mar 26, 2009 at 01:29 PM who Says:
“ Please look in Tenach, King David took Bat Sheva, why? because she was very beautiful (He did not see any middos while she was bathing). Our mother Leah had good Middos; but whom did Yaakov prefer? Would Eliezer dear bring home Rivka if she weren't very pretty? (yes it says very pretty). ”
sound like your much better off not sharing your great torah knoledge with us...if you would have kept quite we would have thought you know how to learn a little...you blew it!
104
Mar 26, 2009 at 01:29 PM The Truth Says:
“ For boys, and dating is expensive both financially and emotionally. Mothers of boys have an incentive to want to try to maximize the chances that a date will work. If a bocher has already expressed negativity toward overweight girls or states that looks are of importance to him, it would probably not pay to set him up with the type of girl that he has already stated that he would not be attracted to. Most mothers would prefer midos over looks but when the son comes home from an expensive date and says "nice girl but I'm not attracted" the mother learns not to discount appearance. Lots of mothers when hearing of a nice but plain girl say " I wish that my son would be interested but he just isn't". Unfortunately, the bochrim hear little or nothing in yeshiva about marriage and dating. Maybe if it was addressed in yeshiva, bochrim would take a different approach. ”
Very few mothers who organize their sons shidduchim (as that is how it works), ask their sons what they are looking for.
Women want to look thin, so they ask what size the girl is when she is checking her out. Only once the mother has found a beautiful girl will it be told to the son who will then go out & meet her. Once he has done this numerous times (as obviously it rarely works the first time) he will have ingrained into him that all girls he will go out with are to be beautiful.
{ok, very slight exaggeration but you get the point!}
Also, NO mother would EVER say, " I wish that my son would be interested in a plain girl"!
105
Mar 26, 2009 at 01:25 PM PMO Says:
“ "There is a problem in that there is a mechitzah around every facet of life in the frum world. Single men do not get to interact with single women, except for the purpose of getting married, "
The men are easy enough to find. Where can the women be found? If a woman want to meet men, she could join a synagogue chess club. There will be many men there, and very few or no women. Since women tend to be so selective and many men are tired of so much rejection, it makes sense for women to take a much more assertive role in dating, and approach the men they are interested in and show interest, rather than just waiting for men to approach them. Often a man might not approach a woman he is interested in since he feels it is unlikely that she will be interested in him. ”
This also goes back how screwy our priorities have gotten in general. Everything has to be one better than the next guy. Every wedding has to be just that much better than the one before... "Mendy had a 7 piece band? I'll have 8"... "Motti's marrying a size 8? My son better marry a size 6!".
Competition is huge for us. If I make an enormous wedding for my first daughter, everyone will think we really have money and it will make my other girls more attractive. Nobody has to know I hocked everything to do it.
Somehow we got to this shallow level. Instead of just accepting it, why not find a way out of it? Who cares how much money someone's family has... or if they own a vacation home in Costa Rica? This is some indication of how good YOUR life and marriage will be? Maybe... we just stop disclosing so much. Maybe who the girl's father is, or how much money the boy's parents have just shouldn't be disclosed until nearing the decision point.
Who am I kidding.... this ship sailed a long time ago. The damage is already done.
106
Mar 26, 2009 at 01:24 PM Anonymous Says:
“ #94 - Our communities do not have these concepts of dating. There are prohibitions regarding fraternization. A man does not just approach a woman or vice versa. We are talking about traditional frum dating. To put it simply - it is matchmaking. ”
"Our communities do not have these concepts of dating. There are prohibitions regarding fraternization. A man does not just approach a woman or vice versa"
That is the problem. Fraternization is necessary for people to meet.
107
Mar 26, 2009 at 02:07 PM PMO Says:
“ "Our communities do not have these concepts of dating. There are prohibitions regarding fraternization. A man does not just approach a woman or vice versa"
That is the problem. Fraternization is necessary for people to meet. ”
Meeting is necessary. And we do have a concept of meeting and dating. Our system is a bit old and dusty, but in general it still works and I wouldn't want to see it changed too much. Maybe ideas on how to improve upon it (ie. the availability of telephones allowed for some conversation to take place prior to a "date").
I'm not knocking the other ways people meet. I know people who met other ways - One couple both volunteered to work for the same charity... he asked someone about her because he saw how much she loved children and doing chesed. However, I can count these instances on one hand and still have enough fingers to stir my coffee. :-)
108
Mar 26, 2009 at 02:04 PM Anonymous Says:
"This also goes back how screwy our priorities have gotten in general. Everything has to be one better than the next guy. Every wedding has to be just that much better than the one before... "
Many years ago the rabbi decreed that funerals be basic and low cost, so that the poor wouldn't be embarrased. Why haven't the rabbis ever decreed this for weddings? It would be much better if weddings are inexpensive, and some of the money saved donated to tzedakah.
109
Mar 26, 2009 at 02:26 PM Anonymous Says:
“ #94 - Our communities do not have these concepts of dating. There are prohibitions regarding fraternization. A man does not just approach a woman or vice versa. We are talking about traditional frum dating. To put it simply - it is matchmaking. ”
I wonder what Tu' bav was all about in the time of the Navi. Women dancing and young bochurim picking out their wives. Why can't this concept work at a wedding where Men AND Women have access to look at the other side (not fraternization C'V) and try to get people to be the shaddchin with someone they are interested in.
110
Mar 26, 2009 at 02:35 PM gailmag Says:
“ how about looking for girls and boys who haven't ever heard of facebook! ”
Oy, vey iz mir - good luck with that! Even my grandchildren are on the Facebook.
111
Mar 26, 2009 at 02:43 PM single girl Says:
Exactly. Where are the common sensical educators that know that the world and people's natural instinct hasn't changed. Who are these silly educators that are propagandizing to these poor girls that all that yeshiva guys will care about is their personality.
112
Mar 26, 2009 at 03:08 PM gone4good Says:
OMG good morning! its taking a while, but slowwwly people are starting to come to the relization that our system is messed up!
113
Mar 26, 2009 at 03:55 PM Getzel the Pretzel Says:
I get the feeling from reading some of these blogs that this is the first time this issue has been brought up and now people want to change it. The issue has surfaced numerous times and many have tried to change it without success. You can try to change it but that would probably be futile. As the balie mussar have stated: "you can only change yourself, not someone else."
When someone figures out how to change the system let me know. My daughter and I will be thankful.
114
Mar 26, 2009 at 03:50 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Very few mothers who organize their sons shidduchim (as that is how it works), ask their sons what they are looking for.
Women want to look thin, so they ask what size the girl is when she is checking her out. Only once the mother has found a beautiful girl will it be told to the son who will then go out & meet her. Once he has done this numerous times (as obviously it rarely works the first time) he will have ingrained into him that all girls he will go out with are to be beautiful.
{ok, very slight exaggeration but you get the point!}
Also, NO mother would EVER say, " I wish that my son would be interested in a plain girl"! ”
I know of mothers of boys who are sometimes presented with girls who have everything going for them except looks. These mothers would accept the girls but the sons will not. The mothers may want to avoid girls who will want to spend lots of money on her looks after the wedding. Not all mothers are thin and gorgeous and into their own looks.
Also, if mothers of sons do not ask what they are looking for, they have themselves to blame if their sons repeatedly date the wrong types of girls.
115
Mar 26, 2009 at 05:21 PM Anonymous Says:
“ About One Hundred years ago to be on the heavy side was attractive, better in the gemara's times we see that there was a tachshit that woman used to wear to emphasize a double chin............... So it it is perhaps the American "IDOL" that is implanted in us unfortanitly MOSHIACH NOW!! ”
Actually, fat people were revered because you had to be rich to be fat, people were still trying to marry up. This was just another materialistic standard. In our times, you don't have to be wealthy to eat every day, so we can look to better standards (we also know that fat people are unhealthy now, that is nothing to desire and it's shameful that a terrible lifestyle like that is supposed to be accepted, while a bochur with OCD is shunned).
116
Mar 26, 2009 at 05:30 PM Anonymous Says:
" know of mothers of boys who are sometimes presented with girls who have everything going for them except looks. These mothers would accept the girls but the sons will not. "
There will be some men who are interested in these women. Perhaps these men might be short, overweight, or in other ways not attractive to most women. If these physically unattractive women are only interested in the most desirable men, then they might not have any success.
One subject that hasn't yet been discussed here is age. There are many men in their 30s and beyond who are looking for a woman 10 or so years younger than they are.
How willing are women in their 20s and 30s to date older(10+ years older) men?
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Mar 26, 2009 at 07:09 PM Anonymous Says:
If these bucherim and girls would know how life changes after marriage this wouldnt have happened. For example the sweetest couples get divorced cuz they dont even know how to communicate. These girls and boys only think of FUN! Life is a ball of fun. There shouldve been a book before you get engaged for dummies.......
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Mar 26, 2009 at 09:20 PM Anonymous Says:
To all you singles out there:
REMEMBER - It's better to want what you can't have than have what you don't want. Never ever settle! Better single than sorry.
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Mar 26, 2009 at 10:02 PM chasidishe Says:
I never knew that chasidim go on dates.
I never heard of a chasidishe girl on facebook.
I think that Rabbi Boteach is mixing up chasidish with plain frum.I believe that he's not talking about any satmarer, bobover, viznitzer, spinker, gerer, pupa, boyaner, kloizenberger, belzer, nadvurner, rachmistrivker, sadigerer, or skulener chusid. He is rather refering to people that want to be named chasidish, with no chasidish background. They just put on a shtreimel because it's the style. (I agree that many chasidishe also put it on for style, but at least most of them don't, and even those who do, at least pick up on most of the chasidishe lifestyle and the chumras that their own respective rabbis command.
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Mar 26, 2009 at 10:00 PM Anonymous Says:
remember rochel gave the secret to leah what great character rochel possesed
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Mar 26, 2009 at 09:51 PM Dag Says:
This sounds like a slave auction
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Mar 26, 2009 at 09:46 PM Anonymous Says:
"REMEMBER - It's better to want what you can't have than have what you don't want. Never ever settle! Better single than sorry."
Is it better to spend the rest of your life alone?
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Mar 27, 2009 at 04:21 AM Lumberman Not Dressmaker Says:
BS"D
A mensch needs to know what a 2 by 4 is, not a size 2. And some bochurim need a klop in kop with a 2 by 4 to drive the point home!
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Mar 26, 2009 at 11:47 PM yeshiva guy Says:
It could be that guys who are putting too much emphasis on dress size will eventually learn the hard way that there is more to a wife and mother than this. Just like all those girls out there who only care about brand name yeshivos and anything "less" is unnegotiable and intolerable, will also eventually learn the hard way that there's more to a husband and a father than his brand name yeshiva. The truth is, the guy who's sifting through his lists and holding out for a girl with a broomstick body, and the girl who won't even consider a boy who's not currently enrolled in a hot shot yeshiva DESERVE EACH OTHER. I wish them all much needed hatzlacha in enjoying wholesome and fulfilling marriages together.
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Mar 27, 2009 at 09:31 AM Jimmy37 Says:
I spoke to my wife for a week before we ever met and got to see her mind before I ever got to see her face. Had I seen her on the street, I probably wouldn't have paid attention to her because she was a pale readhead and I prefer swarthy brunettes.
I recommend that shachanim insist that both parties talk to each other on the phone, so they can get to understand each other. This is not to say the being pleasing to the eye shouldn't be a factor, too, as we see with Yaakov and Leah. But it shouldn't be the deciding factor. A person needs to ask themselves why they care how handsome or pretty a person is. Is it because they want a trophy spouse to show off? Is it because other people are doing it, too? Are they insecure with themselves?
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Mar 27, 2009 at 11:02 AM Rabbi is the Man!! Says:
i fully agree that those sheltered from the (photo-shoped) Models on TV, Internet, Movies, destroys the Possibilty for attraction to REAL WORLD humans,
that is Hollywood's greatest assult on Men's attraction to average women and a crime against sooo many nice GIRLS who would have been OTHERWISE considered attractive to their soulmates!!!
HOLLYWOOD CURRUPS THE MIND,
LUCKY ARE THOSE WHO ARE FREE OF SUCH EXPOSURE!!
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Mar 27, 2009 at 10:48 AM Anonymous Says:
“ I wonder what Tu' bav was all about in the time of the Navi. Women dancing and young bochurim picking out their wives. Why can't this concept work at a wedding where Men AND Women have access to look at the other side (not fraternization C'V) and try to get people to be the shaddchin with someone they are interested in. ”
You just proved the author's point! Then they will definitely choose based on looks and the girl who may be more apropos due to personality will never get a chance!
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Mar 27, 2009 at 12:04 PM Anonymous Says:
"You just proved the author's point! Then they will definitely choose based on looks and the girl who may be more apropos due to personality will never get a chance!"
She won't get a chance with the most desirable men, but will probably have a good chance with the less desirable men if she is assertive.Why don't the women who aren't so physically attractive choose to date men with good midos who also aren't so physically attractive? Men who are short, overweight, losing their hair, or for some other reason deemed physically unattractive have trouble finding women to date. If these physically unattractive women approached the physically unattractive men and showed interest, then perhaps some shiddachs could result? The problem is that many physically unattractive women won't give the unattractive men a chance. I guess there are also physically unattractive men who are only willing to consider the most physically attractive women. I guess more people need to be more realistic about what they desire in a mate.
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Mar 27, 2009 at 12:51 PM Anonymous Says:
When a man looks across a room at a singles event, he doesn't see a woman's personality, just her appearance. If she walks over to him and starts talking to him, then he might begin to get some idea about her personality. If a woman wants her personality to be considered by men, then she needs to approach men and start talking to them. If she waits for men to approach her, then their decisions to approach her or not will be based on her appearance. That is why it makes no sense at all for single women to be so passive at social events. A man might not approach a woman if he thinks she is too attractive and will automatically reject him, or if she is unattractive or perhaps just very plain looking and doesn't catch his attention. If the plain looking woman approached him and started talking to him, then perhaps something might result from that.
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Mar 27, 2009 at 12:54 PM Anonymous Says:
"that is Hollywood's greatest assult on Men's attraction to average women "
The media does the same thing with men. Notice all the ads with tall, thin and muscular men? Women get an image in their minds that they should be with a man who looks like that, and that an ordinary looking 5'7" man is not satisfactory.
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Mar 27, 2009 at 04:28 PM Yosef Says:
Oh how wrong you are! People love to look at the "new young, hip generation" and describe how shallow we are. However if you would take the time to really sit down and get to know us you would be impressed at how deep and meaningful most of us are. Although attraction plays a very important role in any marriage, more times then not guys will "get in to a girls looks" because of her personality, despite the fact that initially he was not greatly attracted to her. There are many guys getting engaged every day, how many of those girls are truly gorgeous?
Instead of focusing on the small portion of guys who are shallow and living through life without really living. Take the time to appreciate the great majority of us who are deep and living life the appropriate way.
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Mar 28, 2009 at 11:38 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I never knew that chasidim go on dates.
I never heard of a chasidishe girl on facebook.
I think that Rabbi Boteach is mixing up chasidish with plain frum.I believe that he's not talking about any satmarer, bobover, viznitzer, spinker, gerer, pupa, boyaner, kloizenberger, belzer, nadvurner, rachmistrivker, sadigerer, or skulener chusid. He is rather refering to people that want to be named chasidish, with no chasidish background. They just put on a shtreimel because it's the style. (I agree that many chasidishe also put it on for style, but at least most of them don't, and even those who do, at least pick up on most of the chasidishe lifestyle and the chumras that their own respective rabbis command. ”
Sweet dreams there are many chasidishe girls on facebook!!
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Mar 29, 2009 at 07:11 PM Ari Says:
There certainly is a problem and too much shallowness. HOWEVER, as numerous posters have pointed out, there is a need for reasonable attraction.
Think about it this way. We know from experience and our Torah that men have a tremendous tayva for women. This is fact. We also know that today's men - even the most sheltered - are exposed to an unbelievable amount of pritzus just from existing in the world. I once heard a rav state that we see more pritzus walking to a corner store than Reb Akiva Eiger saw in his lifetime!
These hormonal young men harboring years of indecent exposures with no (kosher) outlet for their urges recognize that they ideally will have only ONE partner in life with whom to healthily and permissibly express these desires. We are not talking about a secular man who has many "experiences" before he meets "the one" and can allow for the "freedom" of relaxing his standards through this process. Can you blame the frum bucher, after years of feeling guilty for looking at any woman, or c"v being nichshol in some tangible way, for wanting to marry someone who will finally quiet these needs in a respectable manner?
Again, at times it borders on and becomes shallowness, but let's not be ignorant of the clientele under discussion, nor the realities of a Torah-centric life that so pervasively impact their behavior.
That said, it is difficult to blame this young