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Elyachin, Israel - Rabbi Agrees to Drop Ban on 'Hespedim' Delivered by Women At Funerals

Published on: April 1, 2009 04:26 PM
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Elyachin, Israel - A rabbi in northern Israel who came under attack for what some called blatant male chauvinism agreed this week to stop reproaching women for eulogizing their deceased loved ones.

Haim Adani, Rabbi of Elyachin, a town of about 3,000 residents located near Hadera, agreed to stop preaching against women who asked to eulogize their loved ones and to join in the funeral procession.

Adani changed his funeral policy after receiving a threatening letter from Attorney Aviad Hacohen, himself an Orthodox Jew. In the letter Hacohen, who represented Mordechai Avdiel, a member of Elyachin’s burial society, and others, warned Adani that he would take legal action unless the rabbi agreed to stop his gender-based discrimination.

In response to Hacohen’s letter, Adani wrote that he would stop reproaching women. “Just as it is a mitzva to warn people who are willing to listen, so too it is a mitzva not to warn people who refuse to listen,” he said. In a telephone interview with The Jerusalem Post, Adani said that it caused a desecration of God’s name when women disregarded his calls not to eulogize or to join men in the funeral process.

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“Over the years the residents of Elyachin have become less religious,” said Adani. “Women are less willing to listen to me. So I plan to stop warning them.” Adani said that he took special heed after Hacohen brought it to his attention that restricting women from eulogizing was illegal and constituted discrimination.

In his letter, a copy of which was sent to outgoing Religious Affairs Minister Yitzhak Cohen (Shas), Hacohen said that Adani’s custom was extreme in its stringency.”

“Women are not being allowed to stand inside the room where the eulogizing takes place,” wrote Hacohen. “This leaves them exposed to the cold in the winter and the heat in the summer. This is a custom that is not accepted in most cemeteries run in accordance with Halacha. These stringencies are shared by a minority.”

Adani said that the prohibition against allowing women to eulogize was done out of respect for the men. Women were not allowed to accompany the coffin along with men out of a desire to maintain modesty and separation between men and women.


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1

 Apr 01, 2009 at 04:08 PM samthenylic Says:

At the Satmar Rebbe's levaya, the Rebbitzin Faiga spoke IN THE BIG BEIS HAMEDRASH- lifnei kol am v'eidah- for quite

2

 Apr 01, 2009 at 04:42 PM PMO Says:

Who says this is assur? Can anyone show me where this is assur? Of course not! This is why we get mocked... when we just go and make up a phony halocho just to have something to do.

I never figured out how people like Adani just decide one day that women are of no importance in anything outside the kitchen. It is phony halocho like this that gives the rest of us a bad name.

3

 Apr 01, 2009 at 04:36 PM Anonymous Says:

A wonderful example of why we should thank Hashem that Israel is a secular democracy and not in the control of these self-styled gedolim.

4

 Apr 01, 2009 at 05:34 PM Mashe Says:

Also the minhug of separating men and women at the funeral home is not universally accepted. There is no halacha to do so.

5

 Apr 01, 2009 at 05:25 PM PMO Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

A wonderful example of why we should thank Hashem that Israel is a secular democracy and not in the control of these self-styled gedolim.

While I appreciate the symbol of freedom that EY is in this world... it is not good that EY is a secular society. It can be a Torah driven society and still maintain those freedoms.

6

 Apr 01, 2009 at 05:49 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
Mashe Says:

Also the minhug of separating men and women at the funeral home is not universally accepted. There is no halacha to do so.

The last funeral I went to, a rabbi asked the people to file out separately - men first. Women to follow. This is apparently a Lubavitch custom, men and women must remain separate even when walking out from the hall.

7

 Apr 01, 2009 at 05:47 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
Mashe Says:

Also the minhug of separating men and women at the funeral home is not universally accepted. There is no halacha to do so.

Thats not true. There is agemarah in sucah and the yersushalmi speak of the seperations at a funeral

8

 Apr 01, 2009 at 07:08 PM esther Says:

i cv's would not chastise a mourner and as for the satmar rebitzen,she's obviously in a league of her own.however for most frum women speaking in public in a religous setting ie shul,funeral, simcha etc is not done.this is a sensitivity ,not necessarily a din ,as with much of sneeus.it's a feeling az see past nisht.one can see sneeus as a burden or as our crown.

9

 Apr 01, 2009 at 06:54 PM Anonymous Says:

FEMINISM at its best. oyyy the goyish culture has such a hold on us that we can differentiate between right and wrong.

10

 Apr 01, 2009 at 07:44 PM Anonymous Says:

some people take this to an exaggerated degree. a woman should take a step back, fade into the background, don't speak out, don't push forward. leave all the important stuff to the men. what an insult!!!!

11

 Apr 01, 2009 at 07:42 PM Dov Says:

Reply to #8  
esther Says:

i cv's would not chastise a mourner and as for the satmar rebitzen,she's obviously in a league of her own.however for most frum women speaking in public in a religous setting ie shul,funeral, simcha etc is not done.this is a sensitivity ,not necessarily a din ,as with much of sneeus.it's a feeling az see past nisht.one can see sneeus as a burden or as our crown.

Halacha changes for well connected women?

12

 Apr 01, 2009 at 06:36 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
PMO Says:

While I appreciate the symbol of freedom that EY is in this world... it is not good that EY is a secular society. It can be a Torah driven society and still maintain those freedoms.

Freedoms for whom? If you're an ashkenazi man, there's a lot of freedom. If you're a woman, tough luck on you.
And Torah driven might not be the appropriate category in this case. The issur against women speaking at funerals is ridiculous, and is a chumrah.

13

 Apr 01, 2009 at 06:12 PM Sherree Says:

Why would honoring men at a levaya be more important than honoring the wife or daughters or even mother of a niftar or nifteres. Who can say who is more chashuv at a person's levaya, a Rav who chooses to judge this, or the aveilim who are obligated to be there? Who's words are more important at a levaya, a stranger who is removed from the family even though they know the family well, or the mother, wife, sister or daughter of the niftar?

I am not judging, it is not up to me to judge. I am just putting the question out there. If my daughter chose to speak at my levaya nuch 120, I would hope that she would be given the respect to do so, and that no one would have the chutzpah to judge her negatively but understand the pain of a daughter, and the need she would have to give respect to her mother at that final time. If I have the strength and presence of mind to do that for my mother nuch 120, I would hope that any Rav in my daled amos would allow me to give my mother the respect she deserves from me, since I know her and love her better than anyone else in the world. Of course I would never do anything that was not tznuah especially because I would be honoring my mother. And I highly doubt that any one of these women who were hesped their family members were anything but tzenuah either.

It is so easy to judge others, it is much harder to be dan l'kaf zchus.

14

 Apr 01, 2009 at 06:07 PM MS Says:

Perhaps the Rabbi should consider as well why the people of his town have become less religious and less likely to listen to him.

15

 Apr 01, 2009 at 06:06 PM mrs. minhag Says:

Reply to #4  
Mashe Says:

Also the minhug of separating men and women at the funeral home is not universally accepted. There is no halacha to do so.

Halacha is to seperate men and woman evvery time there is a big crows especially since th yetzer Hora is very active at that time. It is an extra precaution. Besides chassidim are always medakdak for issues such as these. Also The Satmar Rebbetzen I think someone said spoke from the woman side. I would ask a family member of my own especially since he them really well. Minhagim are importan, it is just the opposite fact the secular state is what killed the situation and undermined so many wonderfull minhagim of Kllal Yisroel/ Have KOSHER PESSACH AND CHAG SOMMAECH.

16

 Apr 01, 2009 at 09:21 PM Anonymous Says:

I once went to a levayah in a Young Israel out of town, a few hundred people and the wife was maspid. At first I felt this is just not done in Boro Park, so it is not right...

But after a few minutes, she cried and eulogized her husband so well, there was a hushed silence and even the "ultra" in the crowd felt this was a most respectful gesture.

Hard to say though if it could work in the community here on an ongoing basis.

17

 Apr 01, 2009 at 09:25 PM bigwheeel Says:

Reply to #2  
PMO Says:

Who says this is assur? Can anyone show me where this is assur? Of course not! This is why we get mocked... when we just go and make up a phony halocho just to have something to do.

I never figured out how people like Adani just decide one day that women are of no importance in anything outside the kitchen. It is phony halocho like this that gives the rest of us a bad name.

...I'm no expert on Halacha (in the debate whether women should speak to the public in a Religious setting or not) whether it is a Halacha or a Chumrah. But if we begin to rationalize Religion, (which is essentially based on faith) we will --at some point-- end up practicing Reform Judaism. They (Reform and Conservative) started out by rationalizing (not the exact term) the Laws of the Torah. For example, they claimed that the prohibition against eating pork was because the [ancient] Israelites did not have proper cooking and storage facilities in the desert. And it is a well known fact that if pork is undercooked one can be afflicted with Trichinosis. Therefore, the Biblical prohibition of pork does not apply today. Same is with the prohibition against starting a fire on the Sabbath. In ancient times one had to work hard to get a fire going but today it's done with the push of a button. Furthermore, the reluctance to permit women to conduct Religious ceremonies is not done out of disrespect!!!

18

 Apr 01, 2009 at 09:37 PM lamdes Says:

so the satmar rebbetzin zt'l came into shul when the rbbe had his stroke in '67 (?) and oped the aron kodesh in front of the whole cong. (was sahbbos morning..so youre going to have`every yiddene come in too when husband, child etc is sick. anyway, i see thjose who are yirei shomayim and follow the shulchun urech always are on one side of the issue regarding whats right or not and those who are influenced by secular dass ball habais are always on the other side and i leave it up to your imagination which is which

19

 Apr 01, 2009 at 09:30 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
PMO Says:

While I appreciate the symbol of freedom that EY is in this world... it is not good that EY is a secular society. It can be a Torah driven society and still maintain those freedoms.

I can't agree. Torah values and freedom are incompatible. There's no putting the Haskalah back in the bottle. Whether we like it or not, however strongly we feel, we must recognize that the the citizens of EY will defend their right to personal freedom and liberty and any attempt to impose Torah values would lead to civil war. We use that freedom to enable us to choose our own lives, who we follow, what din and minhag our our traditions. Maybe, if we set a good example, others will follow -- to impose our lifestyle -- a Jewish theocracy -- that would betray everything we represent.

20

 Apr 01, 2009 at 08:28 PM PMO Says:

Reply to #12  
Anonymous Says:

Freedoms for whom? If you're an ashkenazi man, there's a lot of freedom. If you're a woman, tough luck on you.
And Torah driven might not be the appropriate category in this case. The issur against women speaking at funerals is ridiculous, and is a chumrah.

Living a Torah life does not mean that you accept every chumrah from every rav. There is no issur realting to women giving a hespid. Even if we are machmir to say it is not tsnius for a woman to stand in front of the men to give the hesipd, that is fine... she can do it from the women's side, out of view. Anyone giving a chumra that is more restrictive than that is probably just a control freak who wants to hear themselves talk.

It is not ashkenazim... different groups or sects do different things... so long as it is built on a Torah foundation, that is fine. It has always been that way. A Satmar is not going to lead exactly the same life as a modern orthodox person. So long as they are both living a life devoted to Torah and learning to better themselves, that is fine. When we start passing out ridiculous judgments about "all ashekenazim", we lose sight of what it is all about.

Every yid should pick the derech and hashkafa that works for them. So long as it is grounded in Torah and mitzvos, it can't be wrong.

21

 Apr 01, 2009 at 08:27 PM Anonymous Says:

It is a chillul hashem for this rebbe to tell the wife of the niftar that she cannot give a hesped speaking to her love for her husband and what a wonderful neshama he was...Even in death, these fanatics invoke such hurtful issurim that only increase the pain for the family.

22

 Apr 01, 2009 at 10:59 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #4  
Mashe Says:

Also the minhug of separating men and women at the funeral home is not universally accepted. There is no halacha to do so.

Really? Where did you get that idea? The gemoro learns it from an open posuk.

23

 Apr 01, 2009 at 10:45 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #11  
Dov Says:

Halacha changes for well connected women?

I was at the levaye in Kiryas Yoel and the Satmar Rebetzin absolutely DID NOT eulogize her husband in the bhm"d.
She could be heard crying hysterically, as could be heard at any levaye when the women ask for mechile and say their final words.

24

 Apr 01, 2009 at 11:04 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #18  
lamdes Says:

so the satmar rebbetzin zt'l came into shul when the rbbe had his stroke in '67 (?) and oped the aron kodesh in front of the whole cong. (was sahbbos morning..so youre going to have`every yiddene come in too when husband, child etc is sick. anyway, i see thjose who are yirei shomayim and follow the shulchun urech always are on one side of the issue regarding whats right or not and those who are influenced by secular dass ball habais are always on the other side and i leave it up to your imagination which is which

Actually in principle every yiddene is entitled to do that; the problem is that if it happens too often it becomes a tircha detzibura. In this case it was the rebbe of everyone in the beis medrash, so everyone was obligated to daven for him and nobody was inconvenienced.

25

 Apr 01, 2009 at 11:11 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #21  
Anonymous Says:

It is a chillul hashem for this rebbe to tell the wife of the niftar that she cannot give a hesped speaking to her love for her husband and what a wonderful neshama he was...Even in death, these fanatics invoke such hurtful issurim that only increase the pain for the family.

So paskening as he sees the halacha is a chilul hashem? Just because there is some heter that he could avail himself of? Tell me honestly, do you have the same criticism when a rov finds some farvorfene kula and adopts it for his kehilla? Or is it only a chilul Hashem to be machmir, not to be mekil?

26

 Apr 01, 2009 at 11:09 PM Anonymous Says:

To clarify something that bothered me from #12 and #17. I believe we are working with poor definitions, and the misuse of words clouds issues such as these. Halakha is not a monolithic body - it contains room for both stringency and leniency. Humrot do fall within the category of Halakha. However, the issue here is that we are not even dealing with a Humra but rather with some kind of invented psak with no basis. This "rabbi" should back away and let his people grieve.

27

 Apr 01, 2009 at 11:09 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #20  
PMO Says:

Living a Torah life does not mean that you accept every chumrah from every rav. There is no issur realting to women giving a hespid. Even if we are machmir to say it is not tsnius for a woman to stand in front of the men to give the hesipd, that is fine... she can do it from the women's side, out of view. Anyone giving a chumra that is more restrictive than that is probably just a control freak who wants to hear themselves talk.

It is not ashkenazim... different groups or sects do different things... so long as it is built on a Torah foundation, that is fine. It has always been that way. A Satmar is not going to lead exactly the same life as a modern orthodox person. So long as they are both living a life devoted to Torah and learning to better themselves, that is fine. When we start passing out ridiculous judgments about "all ashekenazim", we lose sight of what it is all about.

Every yid should pick the derech and hashkafa that works for them. So long as it is grounded in Torah and mitzvos, it can't be wrong.

"Living a Torah life does not mean that you accept every chumrah from every rav."

You do, however, accept every chumrah from the MORO D'ASRO. This is not any rov; when there's a machlokes haposkim, and there's on whom to rely for either side, it's up to the rov to decide. It's his town, his chevra kadisha, his funeral, and his decision. Why must the most lenient opinion always prevail?

In your own home you can pick the derech and hashkofoh that works for you. But you can't impose that on the community.

28

 Apr 02, 2009 at 01:58 AM Anonymous Says:

In hilchos krias megila we see that woman are kosher to read the megila BUT THEY SHOULDN'T READ FOR MEN CUZ IT'S NOT A KOVED THAT MEN LISTEN TO WOMAN.

29

 Apr 02, 2009 at 01:42 AM Kidney Donor from Boro Park Says:

Mazel Tov. Women should definately be allowed to give a hesped. I am sure many, many frum women are very frustrated they can't talk about their parent or sister or brother at a levayah. I can't see anything wrong as long as men and women are seperated and the women speak in the women's section - there should be no objection. A man is not allowed to hear a woman sing, but there is not halacha against hearing a woman talk!!!

May we only discuss simchas in the future.

Chaya Lipschutz

30

 Apr 02, 2009 at 01:17 AM norman Says:

Reply to #12  
Anonymous Says:

Freedoms for whom? If you're an ashkenazi man, there's a lot of freedom. If you're a woman, tough luck on you.
And Torah driven might not be the appropriate category in this case. The issur against women speaking at funerals is ridiculous, and is a chumrah.

and wats wrong with arav being machmiar?????

31

 Apr 02, 2009 at 06:43 AM Satmar Man Says:

Reply to #27  
Milhouse Says:

"Living a Torah life does not mean that you accept every chumrah from every rav."

You do, however, accept every chumrah from the MORO D'ASRO. This is not any rov; when there's a machlokes haposkim, and there's on whom to rely for either side, it's up to the rov to decide. It's his town, his chevra kadisha, his funeral, and his decision. Why must the most lenient opinion always prevail?

In your own home you can pick the derech and hashkofoh that works for you. But you can't impose that on the community.

I will agree with you here.


Though Halacha is halacha, Hiddur is hiddur, and Chumras are chumras, and NORMALLY we are not forced to accept other people's hiddurim and chumras, when we lived in town-kehillas, WE ACTUALLY PASKINNED HALACHA that we needed to follow the minhagim/hiddurim and chumros of the Torah/Halachic leader of that town/kehilla.

This worked fine throughout the world, and many chumros spread throughout the Jewish world. Others were accepted only by Ashkenazim, and still others by Sepharadim only.

But, there remained chumros and minhagim which were just that town's or hekilla's minhag or chumra.
Nobody put anyone down for not following it, unless they lived in that town.
But, if you lived in that town, you were expected to follow, keeping with the concept of Loi Tisgoididi, etc.

Today, we have much, much larger communities with multiple kehillos inside the one community.
This complicates things, as our instincts are that we should all keep the same newly accepted chumros and minhagim.
But, obviously, if you are a Yekki, you do not need to follow the Satmar Chumros and minhagim.
If you are Satmar, you do not need to follow Chabad's chumros and minhagim.
If you are Mod Orth, you do not need to follow the Viznitzer chumros and minhagim, etc.

That being said, we have fallen into the trap of a person choosing what HE or SHE LIKES, and not taking direction.

We ARE obligated to accept the minhagim and CHUMROS of the leader of our kehilla.
This means that if I, a Satmar chossid, were to disagree, or not like, a new takana, or chumra given by the head of my kehilla,'s Let's say R. Aharon or Zalman Leib (as I am not telling you which) I MUST FOLLOW IT ANYWAY.
This means if I am part of R Aharon's kehilla and am rich, and want to make a fancy, chasina, with a 10-pc band, and have them play for 6 hours, etc., IT IS OSSUR FOR ME TO DO SO, because my kehilla's leader put a limit on wedding expenses and set specific guidelines.

I may not be forced to follow YOUR rov's takanos and chumros, but I must follow mine.

If your religious leader tells you not to do something, and you do it anyway, it is WRONG, and JUST AS OSSUR AS A TORAH VIOLATION.

And, though one would think that this would yield a great variety of chumros as one compares across communities, it is funny, but one does not find that. The similarities are amazing. Yes, there are a few which are unique. But, the vast majority of what we feel are chumros, we will discover either rather quickly become almost universally accepted, or tend to go by the wayside. This is because the gedolim, the leaders of Torah Yiddishkeit communicate with each other. And, if one comes our with something, the other phones or writes to him, learns about it, and either agrees, or disagrees. Sometimes the one who disagrees has a good reason, and shares it with the original, and they decide together, etc., Sometimes it ends up with a dually accepted minhag, way, or chumra, other times it results in a revocaation of a chumra.

In Torah Observant Yiddishkeit, the differences are miniscule across cultures and geographically enormous territory.

But, Bottom Line, if you are a Torah Observant Jew, you follow your Rabbi, Rebbe or Rosh Yeshiva
You never just ignore what he says because you "disagree" or "don't like this one"

One of the foundations of Ahavas Yisroel is respect for other people's minhagim. This begins, though, with following your own, as taught to you by your rov.

Now, as a Satmar Chossid, I can tell you that we watch, listen, and read the takonos and notices given out by ALL the poskim of the generation.

32

 Apr 02, 2009 at 06:58 AM chief doofis Says:

A young lady, related to me. lost her father a few years ago. She was prohibited from entering the cemetery. After much crying, cajoling, etc., the compromise was that she could view the Kvura from a distance, sort of like Moshe's view from Mt. Nevo! What a great way to turn of kids from Yiddishkeit!


When people adopt chumras, that's fine. But they have no right to judge others who won't accept them, nor to impose them upon the unwilling.

33

 Apr 02, 2009 at 06:57 AM Satmar Man Says:

Reply to #31  
Satmar Man Says:

I will agree with you here.


Though Halacha is halacha, Hiddur is hiddur, and Chumras are chumras, and NORMALLY we are not forced to accept other people's hiddurim and chumras, when we lived in town-kehillas, WE ACTUALLY PASKINNED HALACHA that we needed to follow the minhagim/hiddurim and chumros of the Torah/Halachic leader of that town/kehilla.

This worked fine throughout the world, and many chumros spread throughout the Jewish world. Others were accepted only by Ashkenazim, and still others by Sepharadim only.

But, there remained chumros and minhagim which were just that town's or hekilla's minhag or chumra.
Nobody put anyone down for not following it, unless they lived in that town.
But, if you lived in that town, you were expected to follow, keeping with the concept of Loi Tisgoididi, etc.

Today, we have much, much larger communities with multiple kehillos inside the one community.
This complicates things, as our instincts are that we should all keep the same newly accepted chumros and minhagim.
But, obviously, if you are a Yekki, you do not need to follow the Satmar Chumros and minhagim.
If you are Satmar, you do not need to follow Chabad's chumros and minhagim.
If you are Mod Orth, you do not need to follow the Viznitzer chumros and minhagim, etc.

That being said, we have fallen into the trap of a person choosing what HE or SHE LIKES, and not taking direction.

We ARE obligated to accept the minhagim and CHUMROS of the leader of our kehilla.
This means that if I, a Satmar chossid, were to disagree, or not like, a new takana, or chumra given by the head of my kehilla,'s Let's say R. Aharon or Zalman Leib (as I am not telling you which) I MUST FOLLOW IT ANYWAY.
This means if I am part of R Aharon's kehilla and am rich, and want to make a fancy, chasina, with a 10-pc band, and have them play for 6 hours, etc., IT IS OSSUR FOR ME TO DO SO, because my kehilla's leader put a limit on wedding expenses and set specific guidelines.

I may not be forced to follow YOUR rov's takanos and chumros, but I must follow mine.

If your religious leader tells you not to do something, and you do it anyway, it is WRONG, and JUST AS OSSUR AS A TORAH VIOLATION.

And, though one would think that this would yield a great variety of chumros as one compares across communities, it is funny, but one does not find that. The similarities are amazing. Yes, there are a few which are unique. But, the vast majority of what we feel are chumros, we will discover either rather quickly become almost universally accepted, or tend to go by the wayside. This is because the gedolim, the leaders of Torah Yiddishkeit communicate with each other. And, if one comes our with something, the other phones or writes to him, learns about it, and either agrees, or disagrees. Sometimes the one who disagrees has a good reason, and shares it with the original, and they decide together, etc., Sometimes it ends up with a dually accepted minhag, way, or chumra, other times it results in a revocaation of a chumra.

In Torah Observant Yiddishkeit, the differences are miniscule across cultures and geographically enormous territory.

But, Bottom Line, if you are a Torah Observant Jew, you follow your Rabbi, Rebbe or Rosh Yeshiva
You never just ignore what he says because you "disagree" or "don't like this one"

One of the foundations of Ahavas Yisroel is respect for other people's minhagim. This begins, though, with following your own, as taught to you by your rov.

Now, as a Satmar Chossid, I can tell you that we watch, listen, and read the takonos and notices given out by ALL the poskim of the generation.

I accidentally hit "Enter" too soon.
My last sentence does not mean we accept each one. I mean we hear about it, read about it, and find out more about it. We often DO accept it. But, even if we don't, we RESPECT it.

34

 Apr 02, 2009 at 07:20 AM Satmar Man Says:

Reply to #31  
Satmar Man Says:

I will agree with you here.


Though Halacha is halacha, Hiddur is hiddur, and Chumras are chumras, and NORMALLY we are not forced to accept other people's hiddurim and chumras, when we lived in town-kehillas, WE ACTUALLY PASKINNED HALACHA that we needed to follow the minhagim/hiddurim and chumros of the Torah/Halachic leader of that town/kehilla.

This worked fine throughout the world, and many chumros spread throughout the Jewish world. Others were accepted only by Ashkenazim, and still others by Sepharadim only.

But, there remained chumros and minhagim which were just that town's or hekilla's minhag or chumra.
Nobody put anyone down for not following it, unless they lived in that town.
But, if you lived in that town, you were expected to follow, keeping with the concept of Loi Tisgoididi, etc.

Today, we have much, much larger communities with multiple kehillos inside the one community.
This complicates things, as our instincts are that we should all keep the same newly accepted chumros and minhagim.
But, obviously, if you are a Yekki, you do not need to follow the Satmar Chumros and minhagim.
If you are Satmar, you do not need to follow Chabad's chumros and minhagim.
If you are Mod Orth, you do not need to follow the Viznitzer chumros and minhagim, etc.

That being said, we have fallen into the trap of a person choosing what HE or SHE LIKES, and not taking direction.

We ARE obligated to accept the minhagim and CHUMROS of the leader of our kehilla.
This means that if I, a Satmar chossid, were to disagree, or not like, a new takana, or chumra given by the head of my kehilla,'s Let's say R. Aharon or Zalman Leib (as I am not telling you which) I MUST FOLLOW IT ANYWAY.
This means if I am part of R Aharon's kehilla and am rich, and want to make a fancy, chasina, with a 10-pc band, and have them play for 6 hours, etc., IT IS OSSUR FOR ME TO DO SO, because my kehilla's leader put a limit on wedding expenses and set specific guidelines.

I may not be forced to follow YOUR rov's takanos and chumros, but I must follow mine.

If your religious leader tells you not to do something, and you do it anyway, it is WRONG, and JUST AS OSSUR AS A TORAH VIOLATION.

And, though one would think that this would yield a great variety of chumros as one compares across communities, it is funny, but one does not find that. The similarities are amazing. Yes, there are a few which are unique. But, the vast majority of what we feel are chumros, we will discover either rather quickly become almost universally accepted, or tend to go by the wayside. This is because the gedolim, the leaders of Torah Yiddishkeit communicate with each other. And, if one comes our with something, the other phones or writes to him, learns about it, and either agrees, or disagrees. Sometimes the one who disagrees has a good reason, and shares it with the original, and they decide together, etc., Sometimes it ends up with a dually accepted minhag, way, or chumra, other times it results in a revocaation of a chumra.

In Torah Observant Yiddishkeit, the differences are miniscule across cultures and geographically enormous territory.

But, Bottom Line, if you are a Torah Observant Jew, you follow your Rabbi, Rebbe or Rosh Yeshiva
You never just ignore what he says because you "disagree" or "don't like this one"

One of the foundations of Ahavas Yisroel is respect for other people's minhagim. This begins, though, with following your own, as taught to you by your rov.

Now, as a Satmar Chossid, I can tell you that we watch, listen, and read the takonos and notices given out by ALL the poskim of the generation.

I will add one thing. If every kehilla accepts a certain rule, minhag, or chumra except one, that one needs to examine why it is standing out, away from klall Yisroel.
That seldom happens because the other leaders would talk to that Rosh Yeshiva, Rov, Rebbe, etc, and he would realize he is the oddball out, and adopt the same way, if for no other reason than unity.
The problem is that there are a small few "leaderless" kehillos today. These tend to be kehillos who were previously lead by a very big godol, and/or a very strong, dynamic leader. No one took their place upon the histalkus of this leader. This can be a problem, as the people in this group, small or large, often are very reluctant to change anything their rebbe, rosh yeshiva or leader did, or add anything their leader, rebbe, rosh yeshiva did not do.
This can result in a certain group's pulling further and further away from klall yisroel. This has happened in the past.
But normally, when the dor which had personal contact with the previous leader is gone, the later generation chooses and accepts a new leader. This new leader, rov, rebbe, or rosh yeshiva then guides them, usually right back into that day's "norm" of Yiddishkeit.

But, if the leader was one of really exceptional stature and dynamism, they feel he can not be replaced. This can result in one group's departure from the "norm" of Yiddishkeit. This CAN have tragic results, as a leader that great, often has an extrememly large number of followers, and such a group tends to be a giant group within klall Yisroel, which pulls itself, inadvertantly, out of the klall.

35

 Apr 02, 2009 at 07:33 AM Anonymous Says:

While we are not forced to accept a minhag or chumra of someone else's leaders, we are expected to honor them, and to follow them when visiting them.
I may allow my wife to wear 70 denier stocking at times, but if we visit Kiryas Joel, I will ask her to wear 100's with seams, or Danskin black tights, as those are the accepted norm in that community.
This is called respect.
It does not mean we are phonies. It means we have respect for others.
Now shaitel/hat/teechel wise, we are the same. She wears a short teechel with a hat at all times outdoors.
But, if our minhag was to allow only a shaitel, we would certainly choose only a short shaitel and cover with a hat or teechel for KJ. Again RESPECT.

Those who cry, "Why should we HAVE to ...........?" are showing their lack of respect, as well as their overall lack of class. A classy person is not afraid to sublimate his/her one needs and desires out of respect for others.

This applies also to when going into a facility whose leaders have rules YOU do not like or consider too machmir. You can go elsewhere. But, while you are there, respect their rules.

NEWS FLASH: Remaining "Aam Kishai Orev" is not a mitzvah or chiyuv.

36

 Apr 02, 2009 at 08:00 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #35  
Anonymous Says:

While we are not forced to accept a minhag or chumra of someone else's leaders, we are expected to honor them, and to follow them when visiting them.
I may allow my wife to wear 70 denier stocking at times, but if we visit Kiryas Joel, I will ask her to wear 100's with seams, or Danskin black tights, as those are the accepted norm in that community.
This is called respect.
It does not mean we are phonies. It means we have respect for others.
Now shaitel/hat/teechel wise, we are the same. She wears a short teechel with a hat at all times outdoors.
But, if our minhag was to allow only a shaitel, we would certainly choose only a short shaitel and cover with a hat or teechel for KJ. Again RESPECT.

Those who cry, "Why should we HAVE to ...........?" are showing their lack of respect, as well as their overall lack of class. A classy person is not afraid to sublimate his/her one needs and desires out of respect for others.

This applies also to when going into a facility whose leaders have rules YOU do not like or consider too machmir. You can go elsewhere. But, while you are there, respect their rules.

NEWS FLASH: Remaining "Aam Kishai Orev" is not a mitzvah or chiyuv.

" She wears a short teechel with a hat at all times outdoors." typo. I meant teechel or short sheitel with hat.

37

 Apr 02, 2009 at 08:56 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
samthenylic Says:

At the Satmar Rebbe's levaya, the Rebbitzin Faiga spoke IN THE BIG BEIS HAMEDRASH- lifnei kol am v'eidah- for quite

She use to collect money in shul - slichus in the morning, so is that permitted for a regally women to?

38

 Apr 02, 2009 at 08:31 AM chief doofis Says:

Certain things are beyond the domain of Rabbis. While I agree with the idea that weddings ought not be extravagant, it's not the concern of a Rabbi to tell me what sort of wedding to make. Nor can he decide what color I should paint my kitchen, etc. He can recommend that I make a small wedding, and I can agree or disagree.

The Torah leaves us a lot of room in certain situations. There are farmers, sailors, blacksmiths, etc., all mentioned as professions in the torah and Talmud. If my Rav feel sthat my son will make a good plumber, a good accountant, or a good Rosh Yeshiva, I respect his opinion, but I am not obligated to follow it. On the other hand, if my Rav paskens that it is prohibitted to shave with a certain shaver, or to trust the kashrut of an establishment (ie. an halachik decision) I must follow his ruling.

Rabbis are not our dictators. Thay exist to clarify and to teach Torah and Halacha. Where they have jurisdiction, we can either follow them, or relocate either physically or doctrinally, to another Rav's jurisdiction.

I would be crazy to wear a brightly colored suit in a Chassidisher shul, but I don't have to listen to someone who tells me not to. What doesn't violste halacha, is my own concern!

39

 Apr 02, 2009 at 09:46 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #31  
Satmar Man Says:

I will agree with you here.


Though Halacha is halacha, Hiddur is hiddur, and Chumras are chumras, and NORMALLY we are not forced to accept other people's hiddurim and chumras, when we lived in town-kehillas, WE ACTUALLY PASKINNED HALACHA that we needed to follow the minhagim/hiddurim and chumros of the Torah/Halachic leader of that town/kehilla.

This worked fine throughout the world, and many chumros spread throughout the Jewish world. Others were accepted only by Ashkenazim, and still others by Sepharadim only.

But, there remained chumros and minhagim which were just that town's or hekilla's minhag or chumra.
Nobody put anyone down for not following it, unless they lived in that town.
But, if you lived in that town, you were expected to follow, keeping with the concept of Loi Tisgoididi, etc.

Today, we have much, much larger communities with multiple kehillos inside the one community.
This complicates things, as our instincts are that we should all keep the same newly accepted chumros and minhagim.
But, obviously, if you are a Yekki, you do not need to follow the Satmar Chumros and minhagim.
If you are Satmar, you do not need to follow Chabad's chumros and minhagim.
If you are Mod Orth, you do not need to follow the Viznitzer chumros and minhagim, etc.

That being said, we have fallen into the trap of a person choosing what HE or SHE LIKES, and not taking direction.

We ARE obligated to accept the minhagim and CHUMROS of the leader of our kehilla.
This means that if I, a Satmar chossid, were to disagree, or not like, a new takana, or chumra given by the head of my kehilla,'s Let's say R. Aharon or Zalman Leib (as I am not telling you which) I MUST FOLLOW IT ANYWAY.
This means if I am part of R Aharon's kehilla and am rich, and want to make a fancy, chasina, with a 10-pc band, and have them play for 6 hours, etc., IT IS OSSUR FOR ME TO DO SO, because my kehilla's leader put a limit on wedding expenses and set specific guidelines.

I may not be forced to follow YOUR rov's takanos and chumros, but I must follow mine.

If your religious leader tells you not to do something, and you do it anyway, it is WRONG, and JUST AS OSSUR AS A TORAH VIOLATION.

And, though one would think that this would yield a great variety of chumros as one compares across communities, it is funny, but one does not find that. The similarities are amazing. Yes, there are a few which are unique. But, the vast majority of what we feel are chumros, we will discover either rather quickly become almost universally accepted, or tend to go by the wayside. This is because the gedolim, the leaders of Torah Yiddishkeit communicate with each other. And, if one comes our with something, the other phones or writes to him, learns about it, and either agrees, or disagrees. Sometimes the one who disagrees has a good reason, and shares it with the original, and they decide together, etc., Sometimes it ends up with a dually accepted minhag, way, or chumra, other times it results in a revocaation of a chumra.

In Torah Observant Yiddishkeit, the differences are miniscule across cultures and geographically enormous territory.

But, Bottom Line, if you are a Torah Observant Jew, you follow your Rabbi, Rebbe or Rosh Yeshiva
You never just ignore what he says because you "disagree" or "don't like this one"

One of the foundations of Ahavas Yisroel is respect for other people's minhagim. This begins, though, with following your own, as taught to you by your rov.

Now, as a Satmar Chossid, I can tell you that we watch, listen, and read the takonos and notices given out by ALL the poskim of the generation.

"Today, we have much, much larger communities with multiple kehillos inside the one community."

Elyachin is not a large community.

40

 Apr 02, 2009 at 09:47 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #32  
chief doofis Says:

A young lady, related to me. lost her father a few years ago. She was prohibited from entering the cemetery. After much crying, cajoling, etc., the compromise was that she could view the Kvura from a distance, sort of like Moshe's view from Mt. Nevo! What a great way to turn of kids from Yiddishkeit!


When people adopt chumras, that's fine. But they have no right to judge others who won't accept them, nor to impose them upon the unwilling.

So now a rov isn't even allowed to pasken like the Shulchon Oruch, IN HIS OWN JURISDICTION, because you don't like it?

41

 Apr 02, 2009 at 09:49 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #37  
Anonymous Says:

She use to collect money in shul - slichus in the morning, so is that permitted for a regally women to?

It's permitted for any woman.

42

 Apr 02, 2009 at 01:17 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #38  
chief doofis Says:

Certain things are beyond the domain of Rabbis. While I agree with the idea that weddings ought not be extravagant, it's not the concern of a Rabbi to tell me what sort of wedding to make. Nor can he decide what color I should paint my kitchen, etc. He can recommend that I make a small wedding, and I can agree or disagree.

The Torah leaves us a lot of room in certain situations. There are farmers, sailors, blacksmiths, etc., all mentioned as professions in the torah and Talmud. If my Rav feel sthat my son will make a good plumber, a good accountant, or a good Rosh Yeshiva, I respect his opinion, but I am not obligated to follow it. On the other hand, if my Rav paskens that it is prohibitted to shave with a certain shaver, or to trust the kashrut of an establishment (ie. an halachik decision) I must follow his ruling.

Rabbis are not our dictators. Thay exist to clarify and to teach Torah and Halacha. Where they have jurisdiction, we can either follow them, or relocate either physically or doctrinally, to another Rav's jurisdiction.

I would be crazy to wear a brightly colored suit in a Chassidisher shul, but I don't have to listen to someone who tells me not to. What doesn't violste halacha, is my own concern!

The wedding limit rules that the Satmar rebbe of KJ made had a very good reason.

What bride should have a wedding missing what all her friends have?
There started by be a list of things to do with getting married:
Gifts from the Kallah to the Chosson
Expensive Chosson Shas
Expensive Chosson Tur
Expensive Chosson Shulchan Aruch
Regular Shtreimel
Rain Shreimel
Pocket Watch
Gifts from the Chosson to the Kallah
Expensive Diamond Watch
Diamond Stud Earrings
Diamond Engagement Ring
another two or three gifts if there were Yomim Tovim

Chasuna halls became very expensive.
Bands were getting crazy in price.
Furniture for the new couple's home
Linnens, dishes, etc.,

And that is before you even count clothing. The girl will need a couple of sheitless and/or teechels. A few suits, shoes, clothing every married woman wears.
The boy will need bekeshes, suits, reshvulkes, shabbos hoisen, fertel sheech, etc.
There alone is a few thousand for the kallah, and at least about a $1,500 for the chosson, if you buy the package at G&G,

What was happening is that by the time a father was making the wedding for his 5th child, he was still paying off the debts from the first 4!!!!

They could not afford it. They are hard-working men, often working 2 jobs, and all the money from one full-time job was going to pay off the wedding debts of 4 or 5 previous weddings. How frightening it became to think about their next 3 or 4

It was out of control. The people were needing to spend more than they could afford, as which boy or girl wants less than his older sibs had? or less than his/friends are getting?

So, Rav Aharon made takanos, with rules and limits.

The goal was to restore sanity to the costs of wedding. He even cut the number of hours of the music. He made arrangements with wedding halls.
Overall, it was a good and very necessary thing.
And, yes, if you are in his kehilla, it is binding on you.
But this is something good. Remember, it was the "rights of the individual to show off their money" which drove everything out of range, into insanity.
Parents could not say "No" to their child, and he/she would say, "But all my friends are getting that...."
Now, they can say, "We are following the kehilla guidelines." and all is fine.

The rebbe's recommendations included furniture, jewelry, shtreimel, etc.,
a big money savings. A good thing.

They say, "A king rules with the permission of his subjects."
The rebbe is like a king in his kehilla. His "subjects" agree to his rule.
Like a good king, a rebbe tries to do things which are beneficial and just.
Here the King, the rebbe, ruled a ruling that the people neeeded and wanted.

Why would anyone complain, especially someone not from his dominion????

43

 Apr 02, 2009 at 05:21 PM chaim Says:

#13 yor easoning is so full of am haratzes its a waste of time to comment in full

44

 Apr 02, 2009 at 05:35 PM berish Says:

#1i was there and dont remeber that can anyone verify?

45

 Apr 02, 2009 at 05:33 PM meilech Says:


321 oh, a new interpetayion of chillel hashem when a rav paskens something not to the liking of a yid he is making a chillel hashem. i mean this beats them all! and when someone will decide to dance the hora male and female at a funeral because the deceased did it and like it your going to come with 'mitzvah lekaim divrei hames' eh? and then another poster says no rabbi is going to keep me from kibbud av vieim ad not let me eulogize my foaher, mother etc.yes, all of sudden he's worried about kibbud etc . what about mitzvah haboh b'avairah (hug , you dont even know what it means?) what about kol kevidah, goirem histacklus etc. you say its only fam. if its more than sister ,brother (not in law) its already not 'fam' legabay this inyon. yes, i know, my rabbi, the rabbonim ,where i come from blah blah.

46

 Apr 02, 2009 at 08:26 PM meilech Says:

#45 is directed to #21

47

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