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Israel - Dangerous Homegrown Punks Terrorize Bnei Brak Neighborhood

Published on: April 19, 2009 05:26 PM
By: IsraelNN
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Bnei Brak, Israel - Vandals slashed tires on nearly 30 cars, torched a synagogue and burned a woodwork shop between Friday and Saturday night.

‪“Some of the local kids who were probably kicked out of their homes gathered here and decided to spend the night in the synagogue,” one local resident said. “They tore down the Torah ark covering to sleep under it, and they took all the prayer shawls in the synagogue to use as sheets. A fire broke out when they burnt prayer books, and the whole wall was set aflame. This is pure vandalism.”

One yeshiva student spoke of his personal experience about how dangerous Bnei Brak can be late at night. “Two punks came over, and they were holding a glass bottle. They shattered it on my neck. With what was left after the bottle was broken, they tried to stab me. I was rushed bleeding to the hospital where pieces of glass were extracted and I was told that it almost reached my main artery. Two weeks later my uncle who is a great rabbi here walked through the streets, and two punks came over and started pulling his beard and hitting him.”

Jews sometimes suffer assaults and harassment by Arabs or groups of immigrants defining themselves as neo-Nazis in other Israeli cities, but Bnei Brak is dealing with a homegrown menace. “They come from good families who live here in the area, they leave the way of their families and they allow themselves anything,” one person said.

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“They have no day or night, they have no boundaries and we don’t see the police doing anything. When we call the police and complain about the harassment, we notice they don’t come at all or they come with the siren and blazing lights and that’s enough for them to run away and come back the next time.”



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Read Comments (43)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Apr 19, 2009 at 04:36 PM Anonymous Says:

It is really not the police job to stop these lost souls, the community as a whole must have alternative yeshivas \ vocations school, this is a problem in most Charedi communities, not everyone is geared towards an all Charedi style yeshiva

2

 Apr 19, 2009 at 05:47 PM Anonymous Says:

if you throw rocks at the cops and turn over thier vehicles during the hafganot and burn garbage bins in your town then why should they help u when you call them for this? either you let thim them in when they want or dont bother calling them.

3

 Apr 19, 2009 at 06:05 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

It is really not the police job to stop these lost souls, the community as a whole must have alternative yeshivas \ vocations school, this is a problem in most Charedi communities, not everyone is geared towards an all Charedi style yeshiva

You are a dangerous guy! Because they are lost souls they are allowed to do anything they want?!! What is the police made for?! Only for good nice kids?!!! Who then are the violence people if not theses "lost souls"?!! If course they are the ones! So, we have to take care of them, you dumbbell!!!!

4

 Apr 19, 2009 at 06:03 PM Chana Says:

Just like parents learn the Halachos they need to know before they get married they should also get professional training on how to raise their children as soon as the mother becomes pregnant

5

 Apr 19, 2009 at 06:58 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
Chana Says:

Just like parents learn the Halachos they need to know before they get married they should also get professional training on how to raise their children as soon as the mother becomes pregnant

can we please stop blaming all the lost souls on there parents

6

 Apr 19, 2009 at 05:17 PM OJoe Says:

Bingo. any society in which the system is "one size fits all" will create a serious problem for itself. No-one is immune, but the situation is made far worse this way.

7

 Apr 19, 2009 at 05:08 PM Anonymous Says:

Stop The Molesters And You Will See A End To This Crazy Mad Behavior

8

 Apr 19, 2009 at 05:07 PM Monsey Man Says:

Did his uncle the "great rabbi" ever do anything to help these kids?

9

 Apr 19, 2009 at 05:03 PM skvere Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

It is really not the police job to stop these lost souls, the community as a whole must have alternative yeshivas \ vocations school, this is a problem in most Charedi communities, not everyone is geared towards an all Charedi style yeshiva

very well said
they are 'our kids" we all need to help them Not wait for the tzionim cops to take care of them

10

 Apr 19, 2009 at 06:53 PM help the kids Says:

Do not call the police and arrest the kids, bring them to a rec center and let them have something to do with all the free time on their hands.

11

 Apr 19, 2009 at 05:35 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

It is really not the police job to stop these lost souls, the community as a whole must have alternative yeshivas \ vocations school, this is a problem in most Charedi communities, not everyone is geared towards an all Charedi style yeshiva

I agree that the communities must have alternative programs and allow for some youthful outlets, like sports, music, and even work. However to say its not the job of the police to stop these persons is plain wrong. If someone is committing vandalism, harrasment or otherwise breaking the civil law, that's exactly what the policy are for.

12

 Apr 19, 2009 at 05:28 PM Anonymous Says:

what i dont understand is some kids want to leave yeshiva party get drunk and smoke

but what connection does stabbing and burning sefarim have to do with them there is a miscategorization here kids being rowdy always was but stabbing and burning down shuls is something else

this article is written in a confusing way

13

 Apr 19, 2009 at 05:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Makes me wonder what they experienced in the homes of the "good families who live here in the area" that they didn't just "leave the way of their families" but seem to want to spit on the way of life in which they were raised.

Most famalies in America during the first half of the 20th century lost children to the secular life style but very few of them left with such venom in them that they came back to destroy us. Plenty of them while not shomer shabbos themselves went out of their way to not rub it into the faces of their parents.

What happened to these kids?

14

 Apr 19, 2009 at 05:24 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

It is really not the police job to stop these lost souls, the community as a whole must have alternative yeshivas \ vocations school, this is a problem in most Charedi communities, not everyone is geared towards an all Charedi style yeshiva

Are you on the same planet as those communities? What do you mean the police dosent have to take care of vandalisim? If anyone does a crime he should been givin over to the local law enforcement

15

 Apr 19, 2009 at 05:23 PM physical activity Says:

Time to collect money to build a gym equipped with basketball hoops, ping pong tables, pool tables and exercise equipment. These boys need wholesome physical activities and if it ignored even worse will occur.

16

 Apr 19, 2009 at 07:41 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #13  
Anonymous Says:

Makes me wonder what they experienced in the homes of the "good families who live here in the area" that they didn't just "leave the way of their families" but seem to want to spit on the way of life in which they were raised.

Most famalies in America during the first half of the 20th century lost children to the secular life style but very few of them left with such venom in them that they came back to destroy us. Plenty of them while not shomer shabbos themselves went out of their way to not rub it into the faces of their parents.

What happened to these kids?

Excellent point. Not only did the children of that generation not rub anything in their parents' faces, they generally maintained close and loving relationships with their parents and families because that love was reciprocated.

17

 Apr 19, 2009 at 07:39 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #15  
physical activity Says:

Time to collect money to build a gym equipped with basketball hoops, ping pong tables, pool tables and exercise equipment. These boys need wholesome physical activities and if it ignored even worse will occur.

That's a start, but they need more than that. There needs to be alternatives to strict yeshiva life and total seclusion from the rest of the world. Not everyone is cut out for yeshiva learning and isolation from the rest of the world. When a community, in essence, tells its kids that you have to be exactly like us or you are nothing and labels as bad seeds and apikores those who don't tow the yeshiva line and all they have ever seen are the extremes - strict charedi life or excapism into drugs and unlawful behavior, then where will those kids who don't fit the mold end up?

18

 Apr 19, 2009 at 07:52 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
Chana Says:

Just like parents learn the Halachos they need to know before they get married they should also get professional training on how to raise their children as soon as the mother becomes pregnant

be careful what you say... alot of excellent parents have had children who go off the derech. chinuch classes arent always the answer...

19

 Apr 19, 2009 at 07:38 PM heilig Says:

Reply to #9  
skvere Says:

very well said
they are 'our kids" we all need to help them Not wait for the tzionim cops to take care of them

does that mean he deserves the beating and harrasment what shaichus

20

 Apr 19, 2009 at 07:34 PM Anonymous Says:

You have to wonder why these kids are living on the streets and nobody offered them shelter.

21

 Apr 19, 2009 at 08:12 PM eitza geber Says:

trying to outdo each other in todays system like geting the best chavrusa who is the biger lamdan etc. does not help these boys .

22

 Apr 19, 2009 at 07:15 PM Anonymous Says:

If it would be a girl dressed unmodest they would know how to deal with it.

All of a sudden when it comes to homegrown dropouts they don't know what to do.

In Brooklyn these Shomerim would take care of the kids.

True these kids need help and warmth, but if they vandalize and terrorize a neighborhood they should be dealt with an iron fist.

Organize a patrol and make an example of a few kids and it will stop

23

 Apr 19, 2009 at 08:56 PM PMO Says:

Reply to #17  
Anonymous Says:

That's a start, but they need more than that. There needs to be alternatives to strict yeshiva life and total seclusion from the rest of the world. Not everyone is cut out for yeshiva learning and isolation from the rest of the world. When a community, in essence, tells its kids that you have to be exactly like us or you are nothing and labels as bad seeds and apikores those who don't tow the yeshiva line and all they have ever seen are the extremes - strict charedi life or excapism into drugs and unlawful behavior, then where will those kids who don't fit the mold end up?

Well said. FAR too many kids are not cut out for a complete immersion in yeshiva life... cut off from the outside world. The problem is that they begin to feel caged in by their parents and rebbaim. They are threatened that if they leave they will ruin their chances for a good shidduch for themselves or their siblings. Only the dumbest, most ignorant, apikoreis would cage a child in that way... using Torah as a weapon against them. What is wrong with a child in a frum family who wants to be a plumber, a musician, a computer specialist, a seller of STAM? When did this become so terrible that you would force a child into a self-loathing life they do not want.

Someone also mentioned the word molestation earlier. This is very true. I know several abuse victims all of whom either were off the derech or are now off the derech as a result. Some became violent for a time. I really do believe that our lack of understanding of some of today's issues, and our ignorance regarding not only molestation, but drug abuse, alcoholism, domestic violence, and psychological abuse have led many of the children astray. We are ill-equipped to help these children properly and because of our failure to help them, they go elsewhere.

24

 Apr 19, 2009 at 08:44 PM yidel Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

You are a dangerous guy! Because they are lost souls they are allowed to do anything they want?!! What is the police made for?! Only for good nice kids?!!! Who then are the violence people if not theses "lost souls"?!! If course they are the ones! So, we have to take care of them, you dumbbell!!!!

He has a point...although I think u don't understand it.... We all agree that the police needs to be involved in this while the acts are being done....but the community needs to be involved so they don't happen in the first place

25

 Apr 19, 2009 at 08:18 PM Basically agree Says:

Reply to #17  
Anonymous Says:

That's a start, but they need more than that. There needs to be alternatives to strict yeshiva life and total seclusion from the rest of the world. Not everyone is cut out for yeshiva learning and isolation from the rest of the world. When a community, in essence, tells its kids that you have to be exactly like us or you are nothing and labels as bad seeds and apikores those who don't tow the yeshiva line and all they have ever seen are the extremes - strict charedi life or excapism into drugs and unlawful behavior, then where will those kids who don't fit the mold end up?

I basically agree that a respected job alternative has to be developed as well as harmless recreation alternatives.

However, you can't assume that all these kids were maltreated by their parents and society. I've heard that most problem kids come from dysfunctional families. Additionally, there is always free will and children can choose an evil path with all the best treatment in the world.

The overall solution is the work and recreation options but vigorous police protection is needed from those who commit crimes for any reason.

26

 Apr 19, 2009 at 09:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

can we please stop blaming all the lost souls on there parents

why? by them you have to do what they want or you trash. they have blocks in ther heads not everyone is the same.

27

 Apr 19, 2009 at 10:48 PM Anonymous Says:

Maybe if Shas would not let their members vote to agree to allow the PM to give away parts of Eretz Yisroel (including Kivrei Tzadikim like Kever Yosef in Shcem) to goyim who want to kill us Hashem wouldn't let these children go off the derech hatorah

28

 Apr 19, 2009 at 11:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #9  
skvere Says:

very well said
they are 'our kids" we all need to help them Not wait for the tzionim cops to take care of them

yes they need to be taken care of by our own patrols, and given makois when needed. the problem comes from all kinds of weird people who supposedly became baalei tshuva but really never internalized Torah and their kids grow up with mixed messages. time for vaadei shechuna to keep machanecho kodosh and stop dysfunctional families from using us instead of psychiatrists.

29

 Apr 19, 2009 at 11:47 PM Anonymous Says:

I think those putting the blame on the chareidi community are mistaken.I work with modern orthodox American kids, from observant families, who at times have shown similar behavior, or misbehavior.There is no segment of the religious community that is free of this problem. Much creativity and resources on the part of parents, communiyies and schools are needed to alleviate this growing challenge.

30

 Apr 20, 2009 at 06:35 AM Anonymous Says:

Most of the solutions you guys are coming up with seem to think that these are nice, normal, well adjusted, middle class families with kids just letting out their wild streak. I think we need to view this as quite the opposite. These kids come from a community where child abusers go unpunished, violence against the police and other people who aren't "frum enough" is considered "OK" and presumably numerous social problems (physical and emotional abuse at home etc.) abound and are not being dealt with because social workers aren't seen as acceptable. These kids live in squalor and poverty. These kids are growing up in a toxic environment and lashing out against it using the kochos that their parents have instilled in them and until the ghettoed off segment of charedi Judaism realizes that this isnt the 18th century and we have nice new ways of dealing with social problems where nobody has to go to the hospital and nobody has to suffer in silence, these types of problems will abound. Think about it this way - a lot of kids R"L go off the derech, but must of the time this just means that they get into other things and drift away. Shbavs are always in the news for this type of brazenly violent desecration of Judaism in a way which makes their equivalents in the less "sheltered" communities look like nothing.

31

 Apr 20, 2009 at 07:46 AM Anonymous 30 slander Says:

Reply to #30  
Anonymous Says:

Most of the solutions you guys are coming up with seem to think that these are nice, normal, well adjusted, middle class families with kids just letting out their wild streak. I think we need to view this as quite the opposite. These kids come from a community where child abusers go unpunished, violence against the police and other people who aren't "frum enough" is considered "OK" and presumably numerous social problems (physical and emotional abuse at home etc.) abound and are not being dealt with because social workers aren't seen as acceptable. These kids live in squalor and poverty. These kids are growing up in a toxic environment and lashing out against it using the kochos that their parents have instilled in them and until the ghettoed off segment of charedi Judaism realizes that this isnt the 18th century and we have nice new ways of dealing with social problems where nobody has to go to the hospital and nobody has to suffer in silence, these types of problems will abound. Think about it this way - a lot of kids R"L go off the derech, but must of the time this just means that they get into other things and drift away. Shbavs are always in the news for this type of brazenly violent desecration of Judaism in a way which makes their equivalents in the less "sheltered" communities look like nothing.

Anonymous 30's comments represent an anti Orthodox bias and distortion of the facts.

"Most of the solutions you guys are coming up with seem to think that these are nice, normal, well adjusted, middle class families with kids just letting out their wild streak."

This is actually the fact and anyone that has visited Bnei Brak can testify that this is the case. The implication that this is endemic to the Chareidi's and their particular problem is also total nonsense. Every sector of Jewish society has been affected by this problem and the Chareidim don't stand out in terms of the numbers or percentage of their community.

"These kids come from a community where child abusers go unpunished, violence against the police and other people who aren't "frum enough" is considered "OK" and presumably numerous social problems (physical and emotional abuse at home etc.) abound and are not being dealt with because social workers aren't seen as acceptable."

This is a gross distortion of reality. The number of child abusers in this community is much less than other communities and these people are dealt with off the books.

Anon 30's comments about acceptance of violence are straight off the anti Orthodox Leftist press. I would also like to know where anon 30 get's his statistics for Chareidi family problems so that he feels entitled to make such as sweeping condemnation of their family life.

"These kids live in squalor and poverty."

Maybe you visited some slum in Brazil or Sri Lanka. This certainly is not the reality in the average Bnei Brak neighborhood.

" These kids are growing up in a toxic environment and lashing out against it using the kochos that their parents have instilled in them and until the ghettoed off segment of charedi Judaism realizes that this isnt the 18th century and we have nice new ways of dealing with social problems where nobody has to go to the hospital and nobody has to suffer in silence, these types of problems will abound."

This is totally biased conjecture without any evidence or basis in fact.

" Think about it this way - a lot of kids R"L go off the derech, but must of the time this just means that they get into other things and drift away."

This is not true. It's not such as surprise when someone in the more modern or non Orthodox camps engages in anti social and anti religious behavior because they are closer to the corrupt mainstream. The secular press is full of reports about violence in well to do secular schools.

" Shbavs are always in the news for this type of brazenly violent desecration of Judaism in a way which makes their equivalents in the less "sheltered" communities look like nothing."

This is not because what they do is more extreme. It is just because it is so unexpected and the anti Orthodox press delights in reporting this. When the others do this, it's just another bunch of juvenile delinquents.

32

 Apr 20, 2009 at 09:30 AM PMO Says:

Reply to #31  
Anonymous 30 slander Says:

Anonymous 30's comments represent an anti Orthodox bias and distortion of the facts.

"Most of the solutions you guys are coming up with seem to think that these are nice, normal, well adjusted, middle class families with kids just letting out their wild streak."

This is actually the fact and anyone that has visited Bnei Brak can testify that this is the case. The implication that this is endemic to the Chareidi's and their particular problem is also total nonsense. Every sector of Jewish society has been affected by this problem and the Chareidim don't stand out in terms of the numbers or percentage of their community.

"These kids come from a community where child abusers go unpunished, violence against the police and other people who aren't "frum enough" is considered "OK" and presumably numerous social problems (physical and emotional abuse at home etc.) abound and are not being dealt with because social workers aren't seen as acceptable."

This is a gross distortion of reality. The number of child abusers in this community is much less than other communities and these people are dealt with off the books.

Anon 30's comments about acceptance of violence are straight off the anti Orthodox Leftist press. I would also like to know where anon 30 get's his statistics for Chareidi family problems so that he feels entitled to make such as sweeping condemnation of their family life.

"These kids live in squalor and poverty."

Maybe you visited some slum in Brazil or Sri Lanka. This certainly is not the reality in the average Bnei Brak neighborhood.

" These kids are growing up in a toxic environment and lashing out against it using the kochos that their parents have instilled in them and until the ghettoed off segment of charedi Judaism realizes that this isnt the 18th century and we have nice new ways of dealing with social problems where nobody has to go to the hospital and nobody has to suffer in silence, these types of problems will abound."

This is totally biased conjecture without any evidence or basis in fact.

" Think about it this way - a lot of kids R"L go off the derech, but must of the time this just means that they get into other things and drift away."

This is not true. It's not such as surprise when someone in the more modern or non Orthodox camps engages in anti social and anti religious behavior because they are closer to the corrupt mainstream. The secular press is full of reports about violence in well to do secular schools.

" Shbavs are always in the news for this type of brazenly violent desecration of Judaism in a way which makes their equivalents in the less "sheltered" communities look like nothing."

This is not because what they do is more extreme. It is just because it is so unexpected and the anti Orthodox press delights in reporting this. When the others do this, it's just another bunch of juvenile delinquents.

What a pipsqueak argument! Whine whine whine... the media hates us... whine whine whine.... people make us look bad... whine whine whine...

At least be willing to admit that there ARE areas where WE (I mean all yirei shomayim) have FAILED our children. Nobody is saying that it is all bad, but at least keep the conversation honest.

You are correct, that when it does happen it receives circus-like media attention. The reason why, is because people do expect more from us. Frankly, * I * expect more from us. What does it say about US when it is published that a rebbe has been accused by 20 students over the years of molestation because nobody ever dealt with it properly? How many children have to be pushed into drugs or suicide as a result, just to become a front page news story?

The reason so many of these things are never dealt with is because everyone thinks it magically happens behind closed doors. It doesn't. There have been many child molesters allowed to continue working in yeshivos over the years and enjoy a certain amount of protection from thug rabbis who threaten to destroy the lives of children who speak up. I understand your point that not everyone is molesting children in our community, but I would bet from reading your post that you really have no idea how often it really does happen.

The problem s that in the eyes of the world, the cover-up is worse than the crime! Anyone can accept that there are criminals in every community. Nobody will ever accept a community covering up the crimes of the individual and allowing them to continue.

33

 Apr 20, 2009 at 09:39 AM FVNMS Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

You are a dangerous guy! Because they are lost souls they are allowed to do anything they want?!! What is the police made for?! Only for good nice kids?!!! Who then are the violence people if not theses "lost souls"?!! If course they are the ones! So, we have to take care of them, you dumbbell!!!!

Not very bright, are we?

34

 Apr 20, 2009 at 10:55 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #28  
Anonymous Says:

yes they need to be taken care of by our own patrols, and given makois when needed. the problem comes from all kinds of weird people who supposedly became baalei tshuva but really never internalized Torah and their kids grow up with mixed messages. time for vaadei shechuna to keep machanecho kodosh and stop dysfunctional families from using us instead of psychiatrists.

You have no idea how trithful your words are but the worls at large is not aware of this yet. In addition this is mostly an israeli phenomenon., In the US it is totally unpredictable. Everyone is laying blame with brush strokes but the answer is really very individual for each kid. And by the way Ein Chodosh Tachas Hashemesh

35

 Apr 20, 2009 at 12:22 PM right approach Says:

Reply to #32  
PMO Says:

What a pipsqueak argument! Whine whine whine... the media hates us... whine whine whine.... people make us look bad... whine whine whine...

At least be willing to admit that there ARE areas where WE (I mean all yirei shomayim) have FAILED our children. Nobody is saying that it is all bad, but at least keep the conversation honest.

You are correct, that when it does happen it receives circus-like media attention. The reason why, is because people do expect more from us. Frankly, * I * expect more from us. What does it say about US when it is published that a rebbe has been accused by 20 students over the years of molestation because nobody ever dealt with it properly? How many children have to be pushed into drugs or suicide as a result, just to become a front page news story?

The reason so many of these things are never dealt with is because everyone thinks it magically happens behind closed doors. It doesn't. There have been many child molesters allowed to continue working in yeshivos over the years and enjoy a certain amount of protection from thug rabbis who threaten to destroy the lives of children who speak up. I understand your point that not everyone is molesting children in our community, but I would bet from reading your post that you really have no idea how often it really does happen.

The problem s that in the eyes of the world, the cover-up is worse than the crime! Anyone can accept that there are criminals in every community. Nobody will ever accept a community covering up the crimes of the individual and allowing them to continue.

“ What a pipsqueak argument! Whine whine whine... the media hates us... whine whine whine.... people make us look bad... whine whine whine... "

You've created a straw man that you could knock down but you have not dealt with my points. You and anon 30 have not brought a scintilla of evidence for the sweeping condemnation of Orthodox Jews that you engage in.

This interpretation is the product of a personal bias and an emotional response to the tragic situation.

However, rational people realize that the best and proper way to deal with problems is honest, logical analysis.

Rabbi Yaakov Horowitz admitted to me personally that most off the derech problems come from dysfunctional family issues which affect a very small but significant segment of our population.

The lack of employment outlets is mostly an Israeli problem due to the fact that those who choose employment will have to go the Army and be exposed to the debauchery and immoral behavior rampant there. Rabbi Steinman and others are advocates for Nachal Chareidi which provides a solution for this issue.

No one is saying these problems don't exist and that they shouldn't be dealt with. However, hysterical, emotional blanket condemnation of the Chareidi way of life is wrong and can't lead to a reasonable solution to these problems.

The vast majority of Orthodox families have happy and normal family lives. All of us have problems of one sort or another and yes, there are a number of instances of Shababniks, molesters, and impoverishment within our society and these should be addressed and are being addressed more and more by the appropriate personnel.

We should not be so concerned by the opinions of the corrupt outside world that we blame ourselves needlessly and unfairly. We should just deal with the issues in the best way possible.

36

 Apr 20, 2009 at 01:35 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #34  
Anonymous Says:

You have no idea how trithful your words are but the worls at large is not aware of this yet. In addition this is mostly an israeli phenomenon., In the US it is totally unpredictable. Everyone is laying blame with brush strokes but the answer is really very individual for each kid. And by the way Ein Chodosh Tachas Hashemesh

yes because in ey you have from hashish to (lehavdil) Hashem in 90 days "BT's" who did "tshuva" in prison or to avoid prison. they still do what they used to do behind closed doors and their kids are messed up big time. in fact every ey organized crime gang like the aboutbouls has an in house "rav" usually a relative.

in the us there is the same problem with some of the children of 70's freaks who became halfhearted carlebach type bt's as well and just see Torah as lehavdil one more counterculture lifestyle. but their otd kids are freaks and hippy types, not violent usually.

37

 Apr 20, 2009 at 02:24 PM PMO Says:

Reply to #35  
right approach Says:

“ What a pipsqueak argument! Whine whine whine... the media hates us... whine whine whine.... people make us look bad... whine whine whine... "

You've created a straw man that you could knock down but you have not dealt with my points. You and anon 30 have not brought a scintilla of evidence for the sweeping condemnation of Orthodox Jews that you engage in.

This interpretation is the product of a personal bias and an emotional response to the tragic situation.

However, rational people realize that the best and proper way to deal with problems is honest, logical analysis.

Rabbi Yaakov Horowitz admitted to me personally that most off the derech problems come from dysfunctional family issues which affect a very small but significant segment of our population.

The lack of employment outlets is mostly an Israeli problem due to the fact that those who choose employment will have to go the Army and be exposed to the debauchery and immoral behavior rampant there. Rabbi Steinman and others are advocates for Nachal Chareidi which provides a solution for this issue.

No one is saying these problems don't exist and that they shouldn't be dealt with. However, hysterical, emotional blanket condemnation of the Chareidi way of life is wrong and can't lead to a reasonable solution to these problems.

The vast majority of Orthodox families have happy and normal family lives. All of us have problems of one sort or another and yes, there are a number of instances of Shababniks, molesters, and impoverishment within our society and these should be addressed and are being addressed more and more by the appropriate personnel.

We should not be so concerned by the opinions of the corrupt outside world that we blame ourselves needlessly and unfairly. We should just deal with the issues in the best way possible.

Where did I attack chareidim? What personal bias did I show? It was very clear in my post I was talking about the situation with Kolko. There are a whole slew of reasons why this happens. Whether in the chareidi communities in E"Y or in BP or Miami!

You say that my analysis was hysterical. It is absolutely not. It was perfectly fair.

We do not address issues in the frum community and they keep coming back to bite us harder and harder, and we wonder why we get criticized. The only reason why the community gets criticized is because we stand up and defend everything! Some apikoreis beats up a woman on the bus, and his friends jump up and down defending him for it. I'd put that on the front page of my newspaper too! People should know that community has such nut-cases living there and avoid it.

As I said, when an individual breaks the law and creates a chillul H", it usually comes and goes from the news with little notice (unless it is on the grand scale of a Madoff). When the individual does so and his whole community stands up to rally in support of him with protests in the streets, that is newsworthy. It is even more newsworthy when it is a serious crime like murder, rape or child molestation.

Get it through your thick skull. A news story about a frum child molester is not an attack on all Yidden of the world. A news story about a community that shielded a child molester from prosecution and threatened the families of his victims IS an attack on the community... and rightfully so!

38

 Apr 20, 2009 at 03:49 PM PMO Says:

Reply to #36  
Anonymous Says:

yes because in ey you have from hashish to (lehavdil) Hashem in 90 days "BT's" who did "tshuva" in prison or to avoid prison. they still do what they used to do behind closed doors and their kids are messed up big time. in fact every ey organized crime gang like the aboutbouls has an in house "rav" usually a relative.

in the us there is the same problem with some of the children of 70's freaks who became halfhearted carlebach type bt's as well and just see Torah as lehavdil one more counterculture lifestyle. but their otd kids are freaks and hippy types, not violent usually.

Please don't put BT's down like that. It really is quite disgusting to generalize in that way. My wife's family are BT's and they are erliche yidden.

39

 Apr 20, 2009 at 03:31 PM Anonymous Says:

Maybe because Agudat Israel supported Ariel Sharon's Gush Katif (Gaza) disengagement plan of 2005 in order to get Money for their Yeshivahs knowing that Gush Katif was going to be given to terrorists who will kill jews. Hashem allowed these frum children to go off the Derech Hatorah to show you can't build Torah by accepting money (as a bribe) to allow someone to put Jewish lives in danger.
It says :עבודה זרה, גילוי עריות ושפיכות דמים יהרג ולא יעבוד

40

 Apr 20, 2009 at 04:37 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #38  
PMO Says:

Please don't put BT's down like that. It really is quite disgusting to generalize in that way. My wife's family are BT's and they are erliche yidden.

this is not a condemnation of bt's i am one myself. it is a very true observation of a subset of some marginal individuals who pose as bt's but are either faking or have not been able to absorb and pass on Torah values.

41

 Apr 20, 2009 at 06:13 PM Anonymous Says:

The idea of any community handling matters like these "off the books" has not and will never work. It can only get worse. And, unless the entire kollel becomes involved and puts these things out in the open, it is my belief that it will continue.

42

 Apr 20, 2009 at 07:27 PM reply to PMO Says:

Reply to #37  
PMO Says:

Where did I attack chareidim? What personal bias did I show? It was very clear in my post I was talking about the situation with Kolko. There are a whole slew of reasons why this happens. Whether in the chareidi communities in E"Y or in BP or Miami!

You say that my analysis was hysterical. It is absolutely not. It was perfectly fair.

We do not address issues in the frum community and they keep coming back to bite us harder and harder, and we wonder why we get criticized. The only reason why the community gets criticized is because we stand up and defend everything! Some apikoreis beats up a woman on the bus, and his friends jump up and down defending him for it. I'd put that on the front page of my newspaper too! People should know that community has such nut-cases living there and avoid it.

As I said, when an individual breaks the law and creates a chillul H", it usually comes and goes from the news with little notice (unless it is on the grand scale of a Madoff). When the individual does so and his whole community stands up to rally in support of him with protests in the streets, that is newsworthy. It is even more newsworthy when it is a serious crime like murder, rape or child molestation.

Get it through your thick skull. A news story about a frum child molester is not an attack on all Yidden of the world. A news story about a community that shielded a child molester from prosecution and threatened the families of his victims IS an attack on the community... and rightfully so!

You attacked Chareidim by coming to the vigorous defense of anon 30 that totally condemned them.

My comments about hysterical positions was based on the fact that you agreed with him by coming to his defense. The total trashing of the Orthodox community that he expressed and you defended is a hysterical and unreasonable response.

From the many articles and opinions on this site, it is clear that most issues are not simply swept under the rug even though there are some who do this. However, these items should be publicized internally within organizations such as Aguda and not trumpeted to the anti religious secular world so that they would have more fodder to fuel their contempt.



43

 Apr 21, 2009 at 11:07 AM PMO Says:

Reply to #42  
reply to PMO Says:

You attacked Chareidim by coming to the vigorous defense of anon 30 that totally condemned them.

My comments about hysterical positions was based on the fact that you agreed with him by coming to his defense. The total trashing of the Orthodox community that he expressed and you defended is a hysterical and unreasonable response.

From the many articles and opinions on this site, it is clear that most issues are not simply swept under the rug even though there are some who do this. However, these items should be publicized internally within organizations such as Aguda and not trumpeted to the anti religious secular world so that they would have more fodder to fuel their contempt.



He did not totally condemn them and neither did I. He did not "totally trash" the Orthodox community and neither did I. I'm sitting in the same boat with you. We do not say it is the entire community, but it is ENOUGH of the community that we NEED to do something about it.

Those of us who are willing to say that the emperor has no clothes will not apologize for honesty. It is those who have lied, covered up, threatened, and committed crimes that led to many of these boys going off the derech who should be begging all of us for forgiveness.

Pointing out problems in the community is not condemnation. It is called HONESTY. Something that we (and yes, I mean every yieroh shomayim) seem to have real problems with these days. I am never, EVER afraid of the truth, even when it hurts. For some of the things we have done, we deserve to be publicly criticized for it. Cases like Kolko and Mondrowitz are a disgusting and embarrassing part of our recent history. WE deserve to be criticized for these things.

The truly sad part is that people like you will keep pushing it behind closed doors and sweeping it under the rug. It is people like YOU that allow perverts and rapists to thrive in our communities... destroying our youth one by one.

What do you say to the boy who has had his dignity and self respect stripped from him by a rebbe who molested him? What do you say to the boy who was threatened by the rebbe's friends with not getting a shidduch, or his siblings not getting a shidduch if he spoke out? All the while this boy has to suffer in silence knowing that while he protected himself and his brothers, other boys were being raped... and he is allowing it to happen through his silence. You don't see how that could push someone off the derech... or to drugs... or to C"V suicide?

Don't you dare try to claim that we have not let many of these boys down through our own actions. Not everyone who goes off the derech went off because of the community's failures, but enough that we should try to fix the problems that we can!

Wake up and be HONEST and stop making foolish excuses... it is not the media's fault that we fail sometimes. It is OUR fault and I thank them for pulling the problems out of the closets and pulling back the rugs!

44

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