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Brooklyn, NY - CEO Of Ohel: Compromise On Markey Bill Should Offer 1 Year Amnesty Plan For Perpetrators

Published on: April 30, 2009 02:22 PM
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 David Mandel, CEO of OHEL David Mandel, CEO of OHEL

Brooklyn, NY - There is legislation pending to extend the statute of limitations on reporting and prosecuting child molesters. There is general agreement this change in the law would be good. Victims of child molestation even older adolescents are often not ready to disclose or confront their offenders until years later. 

A second piece of legislation to open “a window” of one year permitting victims, even those molested decades ago, to file civil lawsuits against molesters has drawn strong support and equal strong opposition.

As is often the case with legislation drafted in local, state or Federal government victim advocates will favor while institutional systems may oppose.

Victim advocates are favoring the Markey Bill, which includes this window. The Catholic Church and some groups representing yeshiva institutions favor the Lopez Bill, which extends the Statute but has no window.

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It is noted that Assemblyman Dov Hikind supports both bills. How could that be as they are different? He explains he would like to work on a compromise position. 

Several victims who have spoken publicly of their ordeals along with a victim advocacy group have been prominent in pushing for the passage of the window. This advocacy is important and well intentioned. But to express it in a way that if you’re not in support of the window you’re not supporting victims of sexual abuse is misguided as it undermines our communities’ ability to have an open honest discussion about child abuse.

THE KEY POINTS

● OHEL see’s importance in both Lopez and Markey Bills and suggests a possible compromise.
●  OHEL is not in agreement with some of the positions taken by certain organizations who oppose “the window” provision.
● While OHEL suggests a one year amnesty, we believe a one year window should be instituted thereafter.
●  OHEL suggests a one year amnesty from civil claims with required risk assessment, treatment and some form of probation and monitoring. Certainly no amnesty from any criminal proceedings.

The passage of such a window provision in California is often cited as a case in point by both sides, those in favor and opposed. In that instance several years ago the legislation led to the disclosure and reporting of several hundred pedophiles in California. This was important and no doubt led to untold hundreds (and thousands) of potential victims not being molested. It also led to hundreds of lawsuits most notably against the Catholic Church which eventually cost them hundreds of millions in settlements.

It is this issue of potential of lawsuits that is pitting institutions against victim advocates. On all other issues there is general agreement.

In a now infamous phrase former President George Bush said to the world concerning Al Qaeda that “you’re either with us or against us”. He came to appreciate it was more complicated than drawing a line in the sand. People can at times be supporting of a position but when asked to give their “all or nothing” many defer. It is not a good way to negotiate.

For this reason Assemblyman Dov Hikind is correct in stating he is seeking a compromise.

The following suggestions are offered that may be incorporated and serve the best interests of all.

1. Victims of child molestation have consistently stated they want the perpetrator to be accountable, to take responsibility and acknowledge his actions. 
Victims wanted the world to know it was the perpetrators fault not theirs.

Victims have expressed this as an important aspect of enabling them to move on with their lives.  They generally don’t speak of revenge but of goodness and responsibility.

Open a one-year window for perpetrators to disclose their acts that were committed and that exceed the criminal statute of limitations. Provide them amnesty from future civil suits.  This is similar to amnesty offered with illegal guns and delinquent taxes.

The gain here is to identify as yet unknown perpetrators and place them under watchful eye with required risk assessment, treatment, some form of probation and monitoring. 

The penalty for those perpetrators who do not come forward may be subject to (potential) future civil claims, stated another way, a window.

2.Institutions (Church, Day schools, yeshivas) are understandably concerned they will be inundated with lawsuits. The Catholic Church’s exposure in California and Boston forced them to sell property and likely close some schools.

Schools may be sued for acts committed by their staff that they may have been completely unaware of. That of course is not a consolation to the victim who may understandably seek recourse. Nevertheless the schools financial liability may be great.

A school losing even one lawsuit requiring them to pay any sum in the millions that exceeds their liability insurance may bankrupt them. How can a school protect itself in an insurance claim from 25 years ago or more when insurance coverage may have been wholly different? How does that serve the best interests of their student body, parents and community? In the end who wins and loses?
How then to mitigate these lawsuits to be reasonable?
  A. Cap the lawsuits, for example, not to exceed a $500,000 payout
  B. Cap the percentage contingency by attorneys to 10pct.
 
There is a tendency by attorneys to throw out a huge number in a lawsuit in the tens or hundreds of millions. This is what is creating a backlash against the window provision.  This may be part of an overall strategy at Tort reform.

3. Insurance companies have generally stayed on the sidelines by not wanting to be involved in any aspect. They need to be brought in even as unwilling partners.

  A. Many victims avoid treatment fearing they will get a diagnosis on their insurance that will “label” them and further their stigmatization.

This is true of Offenders as well, hence they avoid seeking treatment.

  B. Insurance companies have in the main refused to provide coverage for treatment of sexual abuse. This is similar to the Insurance industry a decade ago choosing to significantly raise liability premiums for physicians thus effectively reducing the number of OB/GYN, Anesthesiologists and other specialties.

Victim advocates should lobby the Insurance industry to provide coverage thus broadening the entry of professionals into this complex field of work.

C. The lack of Insurance coverage prevents many victims from obtaining good treatment.

Aside from the forty million uninsured Americans, countless with insurance have only limited mental health coverage.

Treatment for a small number of victims of sexual abuse often requires the services of clinical professionals with specialized training and may last one or several years. 

Evaluation and treatment of pedophiles also requires highly specialized work and generally lasts two-three years.

Inadequate insurance coverage is a serious obstacle to adequately supervising child molesters who want help and thereby protect the public.

Advocates for Infertility treatment successfully lobbied two years ago to require the Insurance industry to include payment for fertility treatment. These often cost $10,000- $20,000 per course of treatment. It is common for many couples to go thru multiple treatment cycles over several years.

Victim advocates should place this in their sights. This is a critical issue.
4. Through our work at OHEL with victims over many decades and in consultations with community groups throughout the country the issue of a victims fund arises.

There does exist compensation funds in many local governments for crime victims.  This should be expanded to include victims of sexual abuse. Such compensation would further encourage victims who come forward and offer concrete validation for their pain and suffering.

Two victims now in their forties have repeatedly stated to me this is their primary interest. They as many others will not speak out because of their personal shame and privacy.

A victim Fund needs to be established especially for those lacking insurance as well as others who cannot or do not want these diagnostic categories listed in their insurance history.

With an air of compromise and deliberations it is possible some institutional groups would consider establishing such a fund and to initiate a process of reconciliation between victims and institutions.

Our work at OHEL has brought us into contact with significant numbers of victim survivors of sexual abuse as well as perpetrators. This is one of the most complex areas of work in the field of mental health.

In the last ten years, OHEL has conducted numerous seminars in communities throughout the country on prevention and response to sexual abuse. Invariably, at every such gathering at least one individual would privately disclose their experience as a victim some ten, twenty, even thirty years earlier or more. It is fair to say that sexual abuse ranks very high on the list of secrets and memories not forgotten.

Many victims have said that by listening to tapes by prominent Rabbonim and community leaders speaking out on this issue and by attending such seminars they have been empowered.

There are few issues in life that are black and white even though we would like them to be. Much more are shades of grey.

These suggestions could move our system another step to protect our children, provide victims with renewed strength and support and put perpetrators on notice that with every passing day we will shut them down.


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1

 Apr 30, 2009 at 02:07 PM Anonymous Says:

Well stated. However, this is another proposal of a compromise, such as you state is sought by Assemblyman Dov Hikind. This approach is reasonable, and logic would guide anyone in a similar direction. But from what I have been reading and hearing, such an approach is doomed.

There are way too many who are actively pursuing the vengeance against the perpetrators, and these people will settle for nothing beyond legislating the worst of shame, punishments, and other consequences on the molester and anyone who has connection to him. It is as if the employer, who could well have participated in the coverup, or failed to assist in the prosecution, bears full responsibility, to the tune of however many millions a lawyer fantasizes would settle the matter. The collateral damage of whatever occurs is completely ignored.

In contrast, there are those opposed to allowing the secular courts to have any connection with this matter. The message is that it needs to be contained within the community and batei din, never having police reports, child welfare reports, or criminal prosecution. This position is equally irresponsible in that we have had all these resources for all the past many years, and these have proven their ineffectiveness over and over again. Our major organizations, with some noble intentions, are in nearly total opposition, only reluctantly agreeing to some involvement of the secular system.

Can there be compromise? Are the two sides so far apart that they will never give an inch? That is how it appears. Good try, Mr. Mandel. Your angle is logical. But too many involved are not. They come from the position of strong emotion, one way or the other. Is there anybody out there listening? Or are we going to just use the comment field to launch passionate tirades for the two diametrically opposite positions?

2

 Apr 30, 2009 at 02:05 PM Anonymous Says:

Who Cares what one individual has to say ? This is up to our Rabunim & Mechanchim not to a plain person

3

 Apr 30, 2009 at 02:03 PM TruthinYiddish Says:

For the sake of kedushas klal yisroel, it is time for OHEL to replace its CEO.

4

 Apr 30, 2009 at 02:14 PM Victim Says:

Sounds more resonable than the Markey bill, but still has a way to go.

I dont see why the Molestor gets off the hook and the school needs to pay. I dont see why he gets off the hook at all. He ruined sombody's life, he should suffer.

On the other hand, I dont see why the statue of limitation exists in any crime and if there is a reason than it shoulde be no different with molestors, if they managed to hide their crime for long enough and behaved, than he not be held accountable. If Murderer's can go free so should Molesters.

I also believe that the standard the requird quality of proof to convict molestors should be raised. It's necessary to distinguish between real victims and consensual relationships, while they may both be a crime there is a difference, indeed. It will also bring more support for any future bill as the schools will feel that a sincere claim, only, will be valid in court.

Last but not least tort reform is very important so that money should not be an incenitve. Maybe any money being paid out should go into an escrow for the purpose of therepy as to avoid it being spend on other things and be a 100% gurantee to avoid fake claims.

5

 Apr 30, 2009 at 02:14 PM goldy rosenberg Says:

I don't like putting my neck out, but in light of what I just read I will. As there is FREE therapy at Mt. Sinai Hospital under the Savvy-Takkanot program for surivors of sexual abuse in the frum community specifically, why is Ohel pushing for us to raise money for therap? It is because they expect it to come to them those funds as they "counsel" the victims. Why are they asking for amnesty for perpetrators? Because one of the best kept secrets in our community is that Ohel has a program for perpetrators. They get paid to "monitor" the perpetrators (and haven't been that successful as some of their clients went on abusing even as they were under "Ohel" monitoring). Even worse has been cases where kids who were molested were sent to Ohel and met their molester in the corridors there.

6

 Apr 30, 2009 at 02:24 PM read the article Says:

The statute of limitations is for lawsuits not for the prosecution of crimes.

7

 Apr 30, 2009 at 02:19 PM Avrohom Abba Says:

Reply to #2  
Anonymous Says:

Who Cares what one individual has to say ? This is up to our Rabunim & Mechanchim not to a plain person

Sorry, I disagree because it is those "Rabunim & Mechanchim" who are somtimes the suspects. It's like asking the chef if the food in his restaurant is good.

8

 Apr 30, 2009 at 02:17 PM Anonymous Says:

Dear Mr. Mandel,

Wasn't there some sort of underling who could have edited this for spelling, grammar, syntax, and missing words?!

Sincerely,

Your concerned fifth-grade English teacher.

9

 Apr 30, 2009 at 02:14 PM Anonymous Says:

Dude, he needs some English lessons. Maybe with his big salary, he can afford a writing class or something...

10

 Apr 30, 2009 at 02:09 PM shmiel glassman Says:

some innovative improvements to the previous bill , but too slippery a slope /
the forensic interview especially of minors is so complex & so easy to mess up (see journal of phychiatry oct-nov )there is little to gain many of these old offenders from 20-30 yrs ago - although the damage done is very severe & the victims are hurting . many are not "a signifigant risk " at this point in their lives( even if the sick temptation does not leave totaly the key question is "signifigant ")
i question the validity of putting someone on trail ,as a way of healing the victim? when the current risk is minimal ( after being properly assesed)
ofcourse if it was my child i would think differently but that cant guide policy

11

 Apr 30, 2009 at 02:26 PM Anonymous Says:

They couldn't get someone to edit this for proper English?

12

 Apr 30, 2009 at 02:26 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
Victim Says:

Sounds more resonable than the Markey bill, but still has a way to go.

I dont see why the Molestor gets off the hook and the school needs to pay. I dont see why he gets off the hook at all. He ruined sombody's life, he should suffer.

On the other hand, I dont see why the statue of limitation exists in any crime and if there is a reason than it shoulde be no different with molestors, if they managed to hide their crime for long enough and behaved, than he not be held accountable. If Murderer's can go free so should Molesters.

I also believe that the standard the requird quality of proof to convict molestors should be raised. It's necessary to distinguish between real victims and consensual relationships, while they may both be a crime there is a difference, indeed. It will also bring more support for any future bill as the schools will feel that a sincere claim, only, will be valid in court.

Last but not least tort reform is very important so that money should not be an incenitve. Maybe any money being paid out should go into an escrow for the purpose of therepy as to avoid it being spend on other things and be a 100% gurantee to avoid fake claims.

murderers can't go free -- there is no statute of limitations on murder

13

 Apr 30, 2009 at 02:32 PM goldy rosenberg Says:

with all due respect, Mr. glasman, the track record in our community is that the same perpetrators keep on doing the harm YEARS later. It is not as if a perpetrator "ages out" of abusing folks. Some of the better known cases, including Mondrowitz, indicate that the perp is still at it even as he approaches senility.

14

 Apr 30, 2009 at 03:24 PM Anonymous Says:

It is not only the victims that have been abused here. The entire community has been abused. Many have lost faith in our leaders who knew and mishandled either deliberately or out of ignorance. The "ancient" cases need to be brought to court if for nothing else but to clean house and cleanse the atmosphere of coverup,denial, and corruption. The tzibbur has a right to know who knew what and when. The buck does not stop at the doorstep of the molesters. It goes right to desks of those Rabbonim Roshei Yeshiva, and Mental Health, CEOs who knew or should have known and did nothing or who actively participated in cover up. The fact that this scandal has gone on for so many years is indicative of a deeper problem of communal dysfunction and lack of accountability of the people who claim the mantle of leadership. The problem will not be fixed until the truth comes out in its unvarnished, and brutal, entirety, There should be no compromises on this matter and the guilty parties on all levels should be exposed to the bright light of day.

15

 Apr 30, 2009 at 03:18 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

Dude, he needs some English lessons. Maybe with his big salary, he can afford a writing class or something...

How much does this guy make.

16

 Apr 30, 2009 at 03:16 PM MARK MAYER Says:

DAVID, PERHAPS YOU KNOW BUT MANY OF THE OLD SEX MOLESTORS FROM MANY YEARS AGO ARE STILL MOLESTIN KID ON OUR STREETS.THIS PAST THURSDAY MOLESTORS FROM 20 YEARS AGO HAVE BEEN SEEN ON THE STREETS OF BORO PARK DRIVING WITH YOUNG INNOCENT YESHIVA BOYS IN THEIR CAR RACHMONA LETZLON
YOU ARE NOT A LAWMAKER ,AND AGUDA ,TORA UMESORA ,OHEL HAD A CHANCE TO BE IN TOUCH WITH ASSEMBLYWOMAN MARKEY ,YOU CHOSE TO IGNORE HER;
THE MARKEY BILL WILL PASS AS WRITTEN WITH THE HELP OF HASHEM.
you are invited to debate me and professor marci hamilton chair of public policy at yeshiva university this motzei shabbon on the zev brenner show wmca 570 am at midniteAND YOU CAN BRING SOME OF YOUR GEDOLIM WHO ARE HIDING BEHIND DAVID ZWEBEL FACE AS WELL

WE WILL TAKE BACK OUR STREETS AND MAKE OUR STREETS SAFE AGAIN

17

 Apr 30, 2009 at 03:12 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #10  
shmiel glassman Says:

some innovative improvements to the previous bill , but too slippery a slope /
the forensic interview especially of minors is so complex & so easy to mess up (see journal of phychiatry oct-nov )there is little to gain many of these old offenders from 20-30 yrs ago - although the damage done is very severe & the victims are hurting . many are not "a signifigant risk " at this point in their lives( even if the sick temptation does not leave totaly the key question is "signifigant ")
i question the validity of putting someone on trail ,as a way of healing the victim? when the current risk is minimal ( after being properly assesed)
ofcourse if it was my child i would think differently but that cant guide policy

"i question the validity of putting someone on trail"
Yes they should be put on trail - the Ho Chi Min Trail.

18

 Apr 30, 2009 at 03:00 PM ben Says:

all you "english teachers" out there are missing the forest for the trees...
Because he is making valid points and you dont want to debate him on these points, you must bash the whole thing... BTW not always does VIN reprint segments of news or articles in full,due to space restraints etc...

19

 Apr 30, 2009 at 03:00 PM Askupeh Says:

Reply to #5  
goldy rosenberg Says:

I don't like putting my neck out, but in light of what I just read I will. As there is FREE therapy at Mt. Sinai Hospital under the Savvy-Takkanot program for surivors of sexual abuse in the frum community specifically, why is Ohel pushing for us to raise money for therap? It is because they expect it to come to them those funds as they "counsel" the victims. Why are they asking for amnesty for perpetrators? Because one of the best kept secrets in our community is that Ohel has a program for perpetrators. They get paid to "monitor" the perpetrators (and haven't been that successful as some of their clients went on abusing even as they were under "Ohel" monitoring). Even worse has been cases where kids who were molested were sent to Ohel and met their molester in the corridors there.

So what are you suggesting that we don’t try to heal these sick people? These sick people could be just about anybody, our father, brother, son or a grandson. If not any of the above it can be our friend’s father, brother or son. Someone has to do it; someone has to take care of OUR problems, will it be you or me? No, therefore Ohel should be applauded for at least trying. If they aren’t doing the best job then let’s encourage them to do better, or let’s establish a better family services center. We should do everything in our ability to heal the victims, but we should also not abandon our sick in their head people.

20

 Apr 30, 2009 at 02:59 PM Anonymous Says:

The track record for legislative compromise over the past 233 years is at best the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. These current salaried thieves in the best little brothel in Albany have no business looking for a compromise, unless they are looking to kill the whole idea. What a concept politicians acting on their own behalf and the behalf of well funded constituents.

21

 Apr 30, 2009 at 03:39 PM shmiel glassman Says:

TO MRS. ROSENBERG # 13 -"TRACK RECORD" I DOUBT ANYONE HAS ANY RELIABLE STATS ON OUR COMMUNITY.
the fact that some notorious pedophiles continued for many years even as they aged is not enough of a proof to support such a broad statement with enormous ramifications - my limited experience has me leaning toward "NOT THROWING EVERYBODY IN ONE BASKET" there are degrees of sickness (its all sick)
however i will ask an expert in pedophilia & pharaphilic behaviors in columbia physch

22

 Apr 30, 2009 at 03:38 PM Anonymous Says:

How does he have so little busha?

23

 Apr 30, 2009 at 04:13 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #2  
Anonymous Says:

Who Cares what one individual has to say ? This is up to our Rabunim & Mechanchim not to a plain person

next time you need a babysitter why don't call your local sex offender to watch your kids

24

 Apr 30, 2009 at 04:09 PM esther Says:

Reply to #19  
Askupeh Says:

So what are you suggesting that we don’t try to heal these sick people? These sick people could be just about anybody, our father, brother, son or a grandson. If not any of the above it can be our friend’s father, brother or son. Someone has to do it; someone has to take care of OUR problems, will it be you or me? No, therefore Ohel should be applauded for at least trying. If they aren’t doing the best job then let’s encourage them to do better, or let’s establish a better family services center. We should do everything in our ability to heal the victims, but we should also not abandon our sick in their head people.

whether someone is related to you or not is not how justice is applied.on the contrary that is why a judge must recuse himself from a case involving his relatives.also as we all know the chances of a molester's resitivisum are almost 100%.that is not worth the risk to any youth RL.either give these sick and evil,yes evil indivisuals the death penalty or life inprisonment.

25

 Apr 30, 2009 at 04:48 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #14  
Anonymous Says:

It is not only the victims that have been abused here. The entire community has been abused. Many have lost faith in our leaders who knew and mishandled either deliberately or out of ignorance. The "ancient" cases need to be brought to court if for nothing else but to clean house and cleanse the atmosphere of coverup,denial, and corruption. The tzibbur has a right to know who knew what and when. The buck does not stop at the doorstep of the molesters. It goes right to desks of those Rabbonim Roshei Yeshiva, and Mental Health, CEOs who knew or should have known and did nothing or who actively participated in cover up. The fact that this scandal has gone on for so many years is indicative of a deeper problem of communal dysfunction and lack of accountability of the people who claim the mantle of leadership. The problem will not be fixed until the truth comes out in its unvarnished, and brutal, entirety, There should be no compromises on this matter and the guilty parties on all levels should be exposed to the bright light of day.

Beautiful!

26

 Apr 30, 2009 at 04:45 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #6  
read the article Says:

The statute of limitations is for lawsuits not for the prosecution of crimes.

You have no idea of what you're talking about! Most crimes, with very limited exceptions - murder being one of them - can only be prosecuted within a set period of time. There is a statute of limitations on just about ALL crimes!

27

 Apr 30, 2009 at 04:43 PM You just don't get It Says:

Reply to #2  
Anonymous Says:

Who Cares what one individual has to say ? This is up to our Rabunim & Mechanchim not to a plain person

Your 'rabbis' are way too busy with Lipa & kosher cell phones, Indian Wigs, kickbacks with Rubashkin.. They don't have time for this nonsense.

28

 Apr 30, 2009 at 04:43 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
TruthinYiddish Says:

For the sake of kedushas klal yisroel, it is time for OHEL to replace its CEO.

why, because he speaks the truth?

29

 Apr 30, 2009 at 04:06 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
MARK MAYER Says:

DAVID, PERHAPS YOU KNOW BUT MANY OF THE OLD SEX MOLESTORS FROM MANY YEARS AGO ARE STILL MOLESTIN KID ON OUR STREETS.THIS PAST THURSDAY MOLESTORS FROM 20 YEARS AGO HAVE BEEN SEEN ON THE STREETS OF BORO PARK DRIVING WITH YOUNG INNOCENT YESHIVA BOYS IN THEIR CAR RACHMONA LETZLON
YOU ARE NOT A LAWMAKER ,AND AGUDA ,TORA UMESORA ,OHEL HAD A CHANCE TO BE IN TOUCH WITH ASSEMBLYWOMAN MARKEY ,YOU CHOSE TO IGNORE HER;
THE MARKEY BILL WILL PASS AS WRITTEN WITH THE HELP OF HASHEM.
you are invited to debate me and professor marci hamilton chair of public policy at yeshiva university this motzei shabbon on the zev brenner show wmca 570 am at midniteAND YOU CAN BRING SOME OF YOUR GEDOLIM WHO ARE HIDING BEHIND DAVID ZWEBEL FACE AS WELL

WE WILL TAKE BACK OUR STREETS AND MAKE OUR STREETS SAFE AGAIN

you're angry and rightfully so. I won't debate you, but ill state that there are (few and far in between, but there are) perpetrators from twenty years ago that have long since cleaned up their act.
What about them. What approach should they take? What can they do to get rid of their guilt and make it up to their victims? Without messing up everything they have built since those days.?
They would love to have closure too, but they don't know where to turn.
would you or anybody else address this issue honestly without anger and yet real ideas.

30

 Apr 30, 2009 at 05:17 PM Medical professional Says:

The mandate of an organization like Ohel should be to help and advocate for patients, ie victims of sexual abuse, not help the perpetrators / predators, the great majority of which continue to molest until caught and taken away from potential victims or until they die.

Many of these molesters simply are incorrigible / incurable. They simply must be kept away from victims.

It's time to focus on protecting our children and other victims.

31

 Apr 30, 2009 at 05:14 PM Askupeh Says:

Reply to #24  
esther Says:

whether someone is related to you or not is not how justice is applied.on the contrary that is why a judge must recuse himself from a case involving his relatives.also as we all know the chances of a molester's resitivisum are almost 100%.that is not worth the risk to any youth RL.either give these sick and evil,yes evil indivisuals the death penalty or life inprisonment.

So if your son was found to have molested someone 35 years ago you would want him to get the death penalty or life imprisonment? Recidivism would be true if all else being equal, that means that the personality of the person hasn’t changed, therefore if he molested 35 years ago he will continue doing so until the grave. But, what if the person has gone for therapy? I don’t really know that therapy works and that it will stop recidivism, but what I have seen work is a person who has done Teshuva and doesn’t do anymore what he used to do. Teshuva does change a person, ask any Baal Teshuva. My using a family member as an example is only meant to drive the point home, because wouldn’t a mother do anything to save and also change her sick-in-the-head son? My opinion has always been not to involve the authorities unless it is deemed un-solvable by a prominent Rov. I disagree with those who only talk about the victims and dribble everyday about this, and I also disagree with those who try to protect the abusers at all cost. The right approach should be, for lay leaders like Dov Hikind to work together with the prominent Rabonim, as they have done in the past year; all private crusades (pun intended) I abhor.

32

 Apr 30, 2009 at 05:13 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #2  
Anonymous Says:

Who Cares what one individual has to say ? This is up to our Rabunim & Mechanchim not to a plain person

problem is its them that are the problem

33

 Apr 30, 2009 at 03:58 PM esther Says:

Reply to #10  
shmiel glassman Says:

some innovative improvements to the previous bill , but too slippery a slope /
the forensic interview especially of minors is so complex & so easy to mess up (see journal of phychiatry oct-nov )there is little to gain many of these old offenders from 20-30 yrs ago - although the damage done is very severe & the victims are hurting . many are not "a signifigant risk " at this point in their lives( even if the sick temptation does not leave totaly the key question is "signifigant ")
i question the validity of putting someone on trail ,as a way of healing the victim? when the current risk is minimal ( after being properly assesed)
ofcourse if it was my child i would think differently but that cant guide policy

#1 how do you know who does or does not pose a threat 20-30 years later. #2 how do you know what will help in healing the victim. i'm sorry shmiel aber du bist nish kain an expert in child molestation.

34

 Apr 30, 2009 at 05:42 PM Sherree Says:

Reply to #2  
Anonymous Says:

Who Cares what one individual has to say ? This is up to our Rabunim & Mechanchim not to a plain person

Again, so sorry to disagree WE CARE, it really is not up to the Rabbonim and Mechanchim, THEY are nogeah b'davar. It is up to the victims of abuse. IT IS HIGH TIME THEY HAD A SAY IN ALL OF THIS. After all we are talking about their ruined and destroyed lives. WE are talking about their loss and their pain!

35

 Apr 30, 2009 at 05:40 PM Sherree Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

Well stated. However, this is another proposal of a compromise, such as you state is sought by Assemblyman Dov Hikind. This approach is reasonable, and logic would guide anyone in a similar direction. But from what I have been reading and hearing, such an approach is doomed.

There are way too many who are actively pursuing the vengeance against the perpetrators, and these people will settle for nothing beyond legislating the worst of shame, punishments, and other consequences on the molester and anyone who has connection to him. It is as if the employer, who could well have participated in the coverup, or failed to assist in the prosecution, bears full responsibility, to the tune of however many millions a lawyer fantasizes would settle the matter. The collateral damage of whatever occurs is completely ignored.

In contrast, there are those opposed to allowing the secular courts to have any connection with this matter. The message is that it needs to be contained within the community and batei din, never having police reports, child welfare reports, or criminal prosecution. This position is equally irresponsible in that we have had all these resources for all the past many years, and these have proven their ineffectiveness over and over again. Our major organizations, with some noble intentions, are in nearly total opposition, only reluctantly agreeing to some involvement of the secular system.

Can there be compromise? Are the two sides so far apart that they will never give an inch? That is how it appears. Good try, Mr. Mandel. Your angle is logical. But too many involved are not. They come from the position of strong emotion, one way or the other. Is there anybody out there listening? Or are we going to just use the comment field to launch passionate tirades for the two diametrically opposite positions?

Sorry to disagree but the arguments although not irrational are not logical. They are geared to protect the institutions still and does not address the victims constitutional rights. I do however, wish to thank David Mandel for continuing to keep this issue in the forefront and to allow this dialogue to keep going. I will answer David's statements in a different post. A more logical conclusion to this issue would be to equate child molestation and abuse with what it actually is "rape" whether there was penetration or not as there is no statute of limitations on rape and therefore it can be criminally and civilly prosecuted. It is ludicrous to define statutory rape as "only if there is penetration". Sodomy is then rape no matter what, and one can determine that the rapist (pedophile) penetrated the abused's mind, heart and soul if not necessarily his/her body and caused even more damage than a physical penetration.

36

 Apr 30, 2009 at 05:44 PM Sherree Says:

Reply to #3  
TruthinYiddish Says:

For the sake of kedushas klal yisroel, it is time for OHEL to replace its CEO.

With whom? He is only doing his job, what they tell him to do, what they pay him the big bucks for, what the Board of Directors expect from him; what the attorneys allow him to say. What do you think his replacement will do anything different?

37

 Apr 30, 2009 at 05:49 PM Sherree Says:

Reply to #4  
Victim Says:

Sounds more resonable than the Markey bill, but still has a way to go.

I dont see why the Molestor gets off the hook and the school needs to pay. I dont see why he gets off the hook at all. He ruined sombody's life, he should suffer.

On the other hand, I dont see why the statue of limitation exists in any crime and if there is a reason than it shoulde be no different with molestors, if they managed to hide their crime for long enough and behaved, than he not be held accountable. If Murderer's can go free so should Molesters.

I also believe that the standard the requird quality of proof to convict molestors should be raised. It's necessary to distinguish between real victims and consensual relationships, while they may both be a crime there is a difference, indeed. It will also bring more support for any future bill as the schools will feel that a sincere claim, only, will be valid in court.

Last but not least tort reform is very important so that money should not be an incenitve. Maybe any money being paid out should go into an escrow for the purpose of therepy as to avoid it being spend on other things and be a 100% gurantee to avoid fake claims.

Fake claims will not get past the scrutiny of the courts, not after all the many years that have passed.

Secondly, please don't make it sound like "ALL" institutions and yeshivas will be blamed and sued. ONLY those that were notified and did not to help the victim or remove the perp from the yeshiva and the vicinity of possible future victims. Not every Yeshiva principal or administrator is an accomplice to the crime, nor was every Yeshiva administrator notified.

There is a chassidishe man who has just released his story. He named his Yeshiva in Boro Park. The Yeshiva still denies that they knew about the incident and still claims the teacher was a fine upstanding individual even though his resume reads like a revolving door. Those are the types of Yeshivas that are at risk for law suits.

38

 Apr 30, 2009 at 05:24 PM Anonymous Says:

Mr Mandel should be applauded for his continued effort and hard work. His tireless job saves lives everyday=those of the mentally and physically challenged. You can see that he is trying to work to do what is right.

39

 Apr 30, 2009 at 05:54 PM ohel needs a new vision and CEO Says:

mandel is nothing short of a disgrace the only reason that aguda torah umesorah and ohel are even discussing this is because of a few brave individuals who have stood up to the rabbanim

i have a simple solution

let all rabbanim from ohel and any ceo or executive found to have knowledge of molestation and did nothing to prevent it resign immedietly
that should be reason enough to replace the board of rabvbis as there will not be one rabbi left that has clean hands


so look at the next ohel fundraising letter and then turf it in the garbage till they get a new ceo and new rabbinical board that cares for our children

40

 Apr 30, 2009 at 06:39 PM read the article Says:

Reply to #26  
Anonymous Says:

You have no idea of what you're talking about! Most crimes, with very limited exceptions - murder being one of them - can only be prosecuted within a set period of time. There is a statute of limitations on just about ALL crimes!

In this case, it is about lawsuits. It looks like the molesting priests of the Catholic church were prosecuted years after the event.

41

 Apr 30, 2009 at 06:03 PM Sherree Says:

Reply to #5  
goldy rosenberg Says:

I don't like putting my neck out, but in light of what I just read I will. As there is FREE therapy at Mt. Sinai Hospital under the Savvy-Takkanot program for surivors of sexual abuse in the frum community specifically, why is Ohel pushing for us to raise money for therap? It is because they expect it to come to them those funds as they "counsel" the victims. Why are they asking for amnesty for perpetrators? Because one of the best kept secrets in our community is that Ohel has a program for perpetrators. They get paid to "monitor" the perpetrators (and haven't been that successful as some of their clients went on abusing even as they were under "Ohel" monitoring). Even worse has been cases where kids who were molested were sent to Ohel and met their molester in the corridors there.

Thank you Goldy for coming forward and being honest. At least I have company in the noose. Seriously though, Ohel also knows, as they are the largest clinical agency, that there is little to no success rate in rehabilitating pedophiles. You can ask NEFESH organization and they will back this up. Studies have been done on this subject. You can google this subject and you will have an answer in less than ten seconds. THIS is not a hidden secret.

The best I can offer on what to do with these known and unknown pedophiles if their victims agree that they should not be jailed, would be to register them at least with the Jewish Board of Advocates for Children and have a 24/7 escort assigned to them to escort and monitor them at all times. This escort should be hired by the JBAC, should answer to the JBAC and should be paid for by their families and/or the Agudah through the JBAC. This again would be in lieu of jail time. And they should never, ever be allowed to go to a public or yeshiva mikveh. Of course if a Rav has a mikveh in his own home and invites/allows one of them to use it at a specific time on specific days when no children would be allowed to be at his home, then that should be permitted.

Again, I am saying this only after the abuser were to offer an apology and ask mechilah from his victims so that they can begin a process of healing. At that time if the victims choose to generously allow this type of arrangement, such a legally binding agreement can be reached with the cooperation of JBAC and an attorney representing both the victims and the abuser. However, I don't think this should take place instead of the Markey bill. This can take place within the parameters of the Markey bill with arbitration. If the parties break this legally binding agreement, then the victim has a right to fall back on the open window legislation even if the one year has passed, so they can't be tricked like Joel Engelman was when Reichman and the UTA agreed to keep Reichman retired from children up until Joel turned 23 and then let him back into the classroom knowing that Joel could no longer sue any of them and they were all safe from prosecution.

Actually, what is stopping any number of pedophiles from stepping up to the plate right now and trying to arbitrate an agreement before the Markey bill takes effect? Just because the Agudah doesn't want it to go through doesn't mean that it wont.

42

 Apr 30, 2009 at 06:48 PM Victim Says:

Reply to #37  
Sherree Says:

Fake claims will not get past the scrutiny of the courts, not after all the many years that have passed.

Secondly, please don't make it sound like "ALL" institutions and yeshivas will be blamed and sued. ONLY those that were notified and did not to help the victim or remove the perp from the yeshiva and the vicinity of possible future victims. Not every Yeshiva principal or administrator is an accomplice to the crime, nor was every Yeshiva administrator notified.

There is a chassidishe man who has just released his story. He named his Yeshiva in Boro Park. The Yeshiva still denies that they knew about the incident and still claims the teacher was a fine upstanding individual even though his resume reads like a revolving door. Those are the types of Yeshivas that are at risk for law suits.

That's my point, how do you prove if the school knew about it or not? How can the school know if the child is saying the truth? Do they have to become judges? Their needs to be guidence for schools and the ONLY way this will happen is if goverment run schools (public schools) will be included in the bill.

I know it's beyond you how someone can make up such a claim, your to honest for it. Unfortunately we are living in a different day and age and many time children will use this as a last resort to change their status from suspect to victim.

Every school will during their lifetime have more than one issue which such a claim and therefor it needs to be dealt with causion and that Goverment run schools are included.

43

 Apr 30, 2009 at 06:46 PM PMO Says:

Reply to #29  
Anonymous Says:

you're angry and rightfully so. I won't debate you, but ill state that there are (few and far in between, but there are) perpetrators from twenty years ago that have long since cleaned up their act.
What about them. What approach should they take? What can they do to get rid of their guilt and make it up to their victims? Without messing up everything they have built since those days.?
They would love to have closure too, but they don't know where to turn.
would you or anybody else address this issue honestly without anger and yet real ideas.

Unfortunately, this is one of those things... the things you would put on the "most heinus" list... they do not get to have closure, nor do they deserve anything more than a lifetime of guilt. I don't wish physical harm to them, but why should anyone get away with damaging someone (or multiple people) for life and then get to have closure when none of the victims do?

If those who perpetrated these crimes had any sense, they would turn themselves in and volunteer to be locked in a mental hospital for life... no getting out. I'm sure something can be worked out where groups of them can be locked up together so they can spend time learning. I'm even willing to donate money to pay for a good rebbe to be there with them. Maybe they can learn a skill like writing mezuzos for poor people...or stuffing envelopes for fundraisers. I'm all for it... so long as they are LOCKED behind walls forever.

... I tried to keep the anger out of it. :-)

44

 Apr 30, 2009 at 05:56 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #31  
Askupeh Says:

So if your son was found to have molested someone 35 years ago you would want him to get the death penalty or life imprisonment? Recidivism would be true if all else being equal, that means that the personality of the person hasn’t changed, therefore if he molested 35 years ago he will continue doing so until the grave. But, what if the person has gone for therapy? I don’t really know that therapy works and that it will stop recidivism, but what I have seen work is a person who has done Teshuva and doesn’t do anymore what he used to do. Teshuva does change a person, ask any Baal Teshuva. My using a family member as an example is only meant to drive the point home, because wouldn’t a mother do anything to save and also change her sick-in-the-head son? My opinion has always been not to involve the authorities unless it is deemed un-solvable by a prominent Rov. I disagree with those who only talk about the victims and dribble everyday about this, and I also disagree with those who try to protect the abusers at all cost. The right approach should be, for lay leaders like Dov Hikind to work together with the prominent Rabonim, as they have done in the past year; all private crusades (pun intended) I abhor.

I can promise you that if I found out chas veshalom that any relative of mine did this thirty five minutes ago or thirty five years ago, he would not have to wait for a judge and jury to impose the death penalty.

(By the way, I must thank you. I was really having a tough day and needed a good laugh. Your line about rabbonim working on the problem for the last year gave me enough of a laugh for a few tough days at work and a visit from my mother in law too.)

45

 Apr 30, 2009 at 07:29 PM Andrew Says:

Teshuva?? Perhaps you mean just having changed one's ways. As you cannot do teshuva until you have confessed your sins and asked forgiveness from the person you have injured.

So having changed one's ways is not complete teshuva.

True that with such a person you don't have the risk of his doing harm in the present tense. But that does NOT absolve him from being punished for the crime done years and years ago.

If someone murdered, but only once, many years ago -- we wouldn't be satisfied in merely knowing that he is no longer a threat to society. He would still have to stand trial and face punishment for the one heinous crime committed a long time ago.

46

 Apr 30, 2009 at 07:17 PM Sherree Says:

Reply to #21  
shmiel glassman Says:

TO MRS. ROSENBERG # 13 -"TRACK RECORD" I DOUBT ANYONE HAS ANY RELIABLE STATS ON OUR COMMUNITY.
the fact that some notorious pedophiles continued for many years even as they aged is not enough of a proof to support such a broad statement with enormous ramifications - my limited experience has me leaning toward "NOT THROWING EVERYBODY IN ONE BASKET" there are degrees of sickness (its all sick)
however i will ask an expert in pedophilia & pharaphilic behaviors in columbia physch

That's a good idea and please report back with the answer. According to Rav Elyashuv repeat offenders should be turned over to the authorities. So for those who said it is up to the Rabbonim, why don't we start with him first and then throw Rav Sternbach in for good measure.

47

 Apr 30, 2009 at 07:02 PM PMO Says:

Reply to #31  
Askupeh Says:

So if your son was found to have molested someone 35 years ago you would want him to get the death penalty or life imprisonment? Recidivism would be true if all else being equal, that means that the personality of the person hasn’t changed, therefore if he molested 35 years ago he will continue doing so until the grave. But, what if the person has gone for therapy? I don’t really know that therapy works and that it will stop recidivism, but what I have seen work is a person who has done Teshuva and doesn’t do anymore what he used to do. Teshuva does change a person, ask any Baal Teshuva. My using a family member as an example is only meant to drive the point home, because wouldn’t a mother do anything to save and also change her sick-in-the-head son? My opinion has always been not to involve the authorities unless it is deemed un-solvable by a prominent Rov. I disagree with those who only talk about the victims and dribble everyday about this, and I also disagree with those who try to protect the abusers at all cost. The right approach should be, for lay leaders like Dov Hikind to work together with the prominent Rabonim, as they have done in the past year; all private crusades (pun intended) I abhor.

I have a feeling you are much older than me. Many years ago I would have agreed, but not today. Someone who molested 35 years ago has more than likely molested MANY times since then. While some may have done teshuva, we know it is unlikely. We are sadly not equipped to handle this problem.

Prominent rebbaim have been ineffective at dealing with this problem to the point that it is now blowing up our community. Unfortunately, now many spend their time covering up for the molesters rather than admitting the wrongdoing. Many rebbaim have worked with Hikind on this and I credit them for their courage to stand up to their peers, many of whom are more concerned with protecting the molesters than the molested.

We find ourselves in a sad and humiliating position as a community. We have failed. Our rebbaim have failed. This is one of those issues where failure is not and never will be an acceptable. This is one of those issues where we need the world to stand with us and fight even if it means fighting this evil in our own community.
.

48

 Apr 30, 2009 at 08:51 PM esther Says:

Reply to #31  
Askupeh Says:

So if your son was found to have molested someone 35 years ago you would want him to get the death penalty or life imprisonment? Recidivism would be true if all else being equal, that means that the personality of the person hasn’t changed, therefore if he molested 35 years ago he will continue doing so until the grave. But, what if the person has gone for therapy? I don’t really know that therapy works and that it will stop recidivism, but what I have seen work is a person who has done Teshuva and doesn’t do anymore what he used to do. Teshuva does change a person, ask any Baal Teshuva. My using a family member as an example is only meant to drive the point home, because wouldn’t a mother do anything to save and also change her sick-in-the-head son? My opinion has always been not to involve the authorities unless it is deemed un-solvable by a prominent Rov. I disagree with those who only talk about the victims and dribble everyday about this, and I also disagree with those who try to protect the abusers at all cost. The right approach should be, for lay leaders like Dov Hikind to work together with the prominent Rabonim, as they have done in the past year; all private crusades (pun intended) I abhor.

for you to think that a child molester doing tshuvah will solve the problem to any extent at all is mind blowingly stupid.fyi child molestation is way different then say not keeping shabbos.

49

 Apr 30, 2009 at 08:16 PM goldy rosenberg Says:

askupeh-
While "sick in the head" is a good excuse, we Jews don't have that clause in our justice system. There is no "reason of insanity" when it comes to murder. When the Torah forbids guys from raping guys, it says nothing of the sort that we are to "heal" the abuser. In fact, many of the perpetrators in our midst are clearly Chayav Karays.

As for all those who are worrying about "forgiveness" that should be our hallmark, I have been asked to be a go-between in cases where folks didn't want to forgive and rabbonim backed them up. Murdering someone and then asking forgiveness doesn't help. Nor does raping someone and asking forgiveness. "oops I'm sorry" doesn't cut it.

I am very glad this topic is being discussed a zillion times over because it is time that we realized that "V'haya Machanech Kadosh" means we stop tolerating sleazeballs who violate every tenet of Kedusha.

50

 Apr 30, 2009 at 08:13 PM Anonymous Says:

Mandel, the director of ohel has publically stated if yoususpect your child has been abused go to a rav.The video is on youtube.

As reported in this article Mandle stated the following.
"Our work at OHEL has brought us into contact with significant numbers of victim survivors of sexual abuse as well as perpetrators. This is one of the most complex areas of work in the field of mental health. "

Mental healht professionals in New York state are required by law to report perpetrators.If a perpetrator goes to a therapist and tells the therapist they abuse children, the therapist must file a report.

If a child who is abused come to Ohel for therapy or support, their case must be reported.

To date Ohel has not reported one perpetrator to the authorities .
THe director of Ohel on Long Island is a licensed social worker. who in private practice treats abusers.He by law is required to report every child who is abused and every abuser.

Ohel should stay out fo law making and start following the law.

51

 Apr 30, 2009 at 09:04 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #43  
PMO Says:

Unfortunately, this is one of those things... the things you would put on the "most heinus" list... they do not get to have closure, nor do they deserve anything more than a lifetime of guilt. I don't wish physical harm to them, but why should anyone get away with damaging someone (or multiple people) for life and then get to have closure when none of the victims do?

If those who perpetrated these crimes had any sense, they would turn themselves in and volunteer to be locked in a mental hospital for life... no getting out. I'm sure something can be worked out where groups of them can be locked up together so they can spend time learning. I'm even willing to donate money to pay for a good rebbe to be there with them. Maybe they can learn a skill like writing mezuzos for poor people...or stuffing envelopes for fundraisers. I'm all for it... so long as they are LOCKED behind walls forever.

... I tried to keep the anger out of it. :-)

nice speech. you didn't answer the question nor did you address the issue I was reffering to.
I actually appreciate most of your comments not this one

52

 Apr 30, 2009 at 10:41 PM Sherree Says:

Reply to #31  
Askupeh Says:

So if your son was found to have molested someone 35 years ago you would want him to get the death penalty or life imprisonment? Recidivism would be true if all else being equal, that means that the personality of the person hasn’t changed, therefore if he molested 35 years ago he will continue doing so until the grave. But, what if the person has gone for therapy? I don’t really know that therapy works and that it will stop recidivism, but what I have seen work is a person who has done Teshuva and doesn’t do anymore what he used to do. Teshuva does change a person, ask any Baal Teshuva. My using a family member as an example is only meant to drive the point home, because wouldn’t a mother do anything to save and also change her sick-in-the-head son? My opinion has always been not to involve the authorities unless it is deemed un-solvable by a prominent Rov. I disagree with those who only talk about the victims and dribble everyday about this, and I also disagree with those who try to protect the abusers at all cost. The right approach should be, for lay leaders like Dov Hikind to work together with the prominent Rabonim, as they have done in the past year; all private crusades (pun intended) I abhor.

Dear Askupeh,
I can't help that you "abhor" me. I abhor abusers and their protectors. Here is my reply to you. I am a mother and a grandmother. If chas v'shalom my child was the abuser, I would not sleep a wink at night. I would be following him 24/7 to make sure he would not hurt anyone. That would be my job of the mother of a sick child. If I grew too old and tired to save others from my son's illness I would have no other choice but to get the authorities involved because I would be risking my own "grandchildren" to his illness and evilness I say evilness because no matter that he is sick with this machlah he is still healthy enough to choose whether or not to get help for his illness Just because he has this inclination and taavah to do this, does not mean that he should not seek help to control it and not give into it.

You also speak about Teshuva and again I will ask you as I have asked others who choose to wave this banner. Can there be Teshuva if you don't ask mechila for your negative and hurtful actions? If you don't proclaim "S'lach li ki chatati"? I rest my case.

53

 Apr 30, 2009 at 10:26 PM Sherree Says:

Reply to #26  
Anonymous Says:

You have no idea of what you're talking about! Most crimes, with very limited exceptions - murder being one of them - can only be prosecuted within a set period of time. There is a statute of limitations on just about ALL crimes!

I just googled "crimes with no statute of limitations" and this is what I came up with:

Well, it would be an extremely long list considering most states differ on many of the laws. Best bets for no statute of limitations are any crimes punishable by death or life imprisonment (obviously). Crimes such as 1st degree sexual misconduct (rape or similar), other sexual crimes like misconduct with a minor, then there is a long list of things relating to things like embezzlement, any kind of treason (which is always federal), kidnapping, falsification of public records, forgery etc. or anything falsified in the past that you are making monetary gains from now, don't know the exact name of that. Hope that helps you out
Source(s):
"choose law", law articles, and personal knowledge as a paralegal.

54

 Apr 30, 2009 at 10:34 PM Sherree Says:

Reply to #29  
Anonymous Says:

you're angry and rightfully so. I won't debate you, but ill state that there are (few and far in between, but there are) perpetrators from twenty years ago that have long since cleaned up their act.
What about them. What approach should they take? What can they do to get rid of their guilt and make it up to their victims? Without messing up everything they have built since those days.?
They would love to have closure too, but they don't know where to turn.
would you or anybody else address this issue honestly without anger and yet real ideas.

OK, let's look to the Torah. What does the Torah say about retribution, asking mechilah, making up for wrongs we commit against others? What does the Torah say about protecting our own "lives" and not messing things up in our own world when we have messed things up in our victim's world whether it is on purpose or b'shgagah? We really don't have to make up new rules, everything we need to know is in the Torah.

Does the Torah say that "OUR" needs come before the needs of "OUR VICTIMS"?
Are we responsible to ourselves first before, above and beyond the responsibility we have to our victims and the people we have hurt?

"lets go to the video-tape...excuse me the Torah and research the answer....anyone....Rabbi Zweibel.....David....Anonymous #29? Maybe ask Yudi, Lipa or Monsterowitz for the answer.

55

 Apr 30, 2009 at 09:35 PM MD Says:

Mental health providers, social workers, MDs, etc are all required by law to report any reasonable possibility of child abuse having occurred. If it is true, as suggested in #50, that Ohel staff have not appropriately reported suspected abuse, that alone is a crime which should be investigated. The conspiracy of silence serves evil.

56

 Apr 30, 2009 at 11:27 PM PMO Says:

Reply to #51  
Anonymous Says:

nice speech. you didn't answer the question nor did you address the issue I was reffering to.
I actually appreciate most of your comments not this one

I am sorry... I thought I was clear. I have yet to hear of a molester who did teshuva (actually confront the victim and beg forgiveness). Molesters deserve to live their lives behind locked gates like warehoused animals. They never deserve closure. Is that more clear?

57

 May 01, 2009 at 06:19 AM Anonymous Says:

The man's disdain for the rest of us oozes out of this press release.

His entire tone is so demeaning that I don't think I have heard someone lecture-down to people so badly since Shafran released his Let-Me-Tell-You-Who-Are-The-True-Good-Guys nonesense a few weeks ago.

Wait, I take that back. There was Zweibel's load of bovine feces after that.

OK, I admit it. Stupidity and public displays of disrespect for the average person's ability to see thru to the truth coming from AI and its cohorts are not that unusual after all.

58

 May 01, 2009 at 05:04 AM Sherree Says:

Reply to #42  
Victim Says:

That's my point, how do you prove if the school knew about it or not? How can the school know if the child is saying the truth? Do they have to become judges? Their needs to be guidence for schools and the ONLY way this will happen is if goverment run schools (public schools) will be included in the bill.

I know it's beyond you how someone can make up such a claim, your to honest for it. Unfortunately we are living in a different day and age and many time children will use this as a last resort to change their status from suspect to victim.

Every school will during their lifetime have more than one issue which such a claim and therefor it needs to be dealt with causion and that Goverment run schools are included.

You certainly don't sound like a victim! There are protocols that must be followed if a child makes an accusation and that is why there is a system called "mandatory reporting" where experts, should I say this again so there are no misunderstandings "EXPERTS" are sent in to investigate the claim. There is such a small margin of false claims in the entire statistics of child sexual abuse including by the goyim that it is ridiculous how that banner flies so high. Why do we promote that more so than protecting the kids? Look where it has gotten us. That theory has produced thousands of kids that continued to be abused on the very small chance that a false accusation would be levied against an innocent teacher.

The statistics provided claim that a pedophile will strike 400 times in their career. When you use your logic each time you use your theory, that pedophile that is not being reported on the chance that he didn't strike even once will strike 400 times. Think about it, isn't it worth checking out?

And EVERY school that has the appropriate procedures and protocols in place will not have even ONE such claim to deal with. IF EVERY YESHIVA had a sign clearly posted in the office as they are required to have (just as an example) a Worker's Comp sign or an Unemployment sign hanging, which would state: WE ARE MANDATORY REPORTERS FOR THE STATE OF NY. I guarantee you that if there were any pedophiles in the building they would quit and run to another place of employment. This of course in conjunction with fingerprinting and background checks for all employees and volunteers.

As far as going back in time, the reporting of a crime is different than the crime itself which only had 3 witnesses, the child, the abuser and Hashem. The reporting would have parents, the principle, maybe the secretary, the Rosh, the Board, a letter, the child's own Rav from shul, etc. There is more proof than just one person's word.

59

 May 01, 2009 at 05:08 AM Sherree Says:

Reply to #43  
PMO Says:

Unfortunately, this is one of those things... the things you would put on the "most heinus" list... they do not get to have closure, nor do they deserve anything more than a lifetime of guilt. I don't wish physical harm to them, but why should anyone get away with damaging someone (or multiple people) for life and then get to have closure when none of the victims do?

If those who perpetrated these crimes had any sense, they would turn themselves in and volunteer to be locked in a mental hospital for life... no getting out. I'm sure something can be worked out where groups of them can be locked up together so they can spend time learning. I'm even willing to donate money to pay for a good rebbe to be there with them. Maybe they can learn a skill like writing mezuzos for poor people...or stuffing envelopes for fundraisers. I'm all for it... so long as they are LOCKED behind walls forever.

... I tried to keep the anger out of it. :-)

Or maybe they should devote their time at this camp for saying Tehillim for all the victims of this crime and beg Hashem to heal these victims; to forgive "them" for their sins and to heal anyone that has the same machla that they do. They should direct all their prayers to keep "satan" away from everyone and stop tempting people with this horrible yetzer horah!

60

 May 01, 2009 at 05:11 AM Sherree Says:

Reply to #50  
Anonymous Says:

Mandel, the director of ohel has publically stated if yoususpect your child has been abused go to a rav.The video is on youtube.

As reported in this article Mandle stated the following.
"Our work at OHEL has brought us into contact with significant numbers of victim survivors of sexual abuse as well as perpetrators. This is one of the most complex areas of work in the field of mental health. "

Mental healht professionals in New York state are required by law to report perpetrators.If a perpetrator goes to a therapist and tells the therapist they abuse children, the therapist must file a report.

If a child who is abused come to Ohel for therapy or support, their case must be reported.

To date Ohel has not reported one perpetrator to the authorities .
THe director of Ohel on Long Island is a licensed social worker. who in private practice treats abusers.He by law is required to report every child who is abused and every abuser.

Ohel should stay out fo law making and start following the law.

Interesting if true, then how in the world could Charles Hynes partner with Ohel in Kol Tzedek?

61

 May 01, 2009 at 12:28 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #56  
PMO Says:

I am sorry... I thought I was clear. I have yet to hear of a molester who did teshuva (actually confront the victim and beg forgiveness). Molesters deserve to live their lives behind locked gates like warehoused animals. They never deserve closure. Is that more clear?

my question is in a case where they actually and factually apologized. They NEVER molested again, but still feel bad.
now read my initial comment and first two questions.

62

 May 01, 2009 at 07:37 AM Anonymous Says:

Why is there anyone out there making any discussion about teshuvah with regards to this topic? There is no posek or beis din that has any right to consider teshuvah as a variable in paskening about such matters. Teshuvah is relevant to dinei shomayim only. As far as asking mechilah from a victim, that, too, is quite a complex issue. If this mechilah is based on the inability of the perpetrator to live with his guilt or with the negative consequences of his actions, then it is just another perpetration of abuse. The victim is again being asked to serve the needs of the abuser. A million times NO!

If a victim is ready to receive a bakoshas mechilah, and the abuser has undergone enough therapy to be able to "unselfishly" ask for it, then it can be done with appropriate guidance. However, as it usually occurs, this level of maturity is rarely achieved. So the discussion about teshuvah is moot. Focus on the issues that are more relevant.

63

 May 01, 2009 at 08:36 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #2  
Anonymous Says:

Who Cares what one individual has to say ? This is up to our Rabunim & Mechanchim not to a plain person

Why do you say its up to the Rabunim - it should be up to the people or to the victims who were molested - those who say its up to the Rabunim would change there minds if they would have been a victim or if they knew someone close to them that was molested. Bottom line is those people must pay for there actions, I'm living as a victim for over 15 years and the truth must come out to prevent future victims.
I'm speaking for myself and for all the victims out there be strong the time will come for everyone.

64

 May 01, 2009 at 12:04 PM Anonymous Says:

The problem with this debate is it's driven by revenge not by what's right and how do we protect the inocent and by the way the only adiction that can be totely 100% cured is sexual adiction ask any expert as well let's recall how it workt not all cases are victims and molestor there are cases where 2 young boucherim might have foold around in yeshiva or somthing and they grew up build lives and yes got help and truly changed and than 30 years later one claims abuse by other is it right to destroy evrything that he build his fameliy I'm not sure yes he should take responsebilety and make amends but should we destroy him i'm not sure what he can do but I think we must give ppl a chance some how to come forward and yes get closure and not destroy there lives in the process other wise why should anyone make amends I don't get yes we need a discreet way couse some times both are victims who need help and closure so let's think it thru with out anger and give decrention a chance and if that don't work than I agree burn the guy and this only if we can somehow be sure the person has truly changed and not had any issues since than and by the way I know cases where this has workt I would love hear any ideas that might have a way of dealing with this couse yes it's a complicated issue thanks

65

 May 01, 2009 at 05:32 PM Susan Says:

Reply to #60  
Sherree Says:

Interesting if true, then how in the world could Charles Hynes partner with Ohel in Kol Tzedek?

It is very very true what #50 is saying. ohel has never and unless caught will never report a molester if he's jewish. Not only that they don't report on parents who are molesting their own children, or physically.

66

 May 01, 2009 at 05:27 PM Susan Says:

Reply to #63  
Anonymous Says:

Why do you say its up to the Rabunim - it should be up to the people or to the victims who were molested - those who say its up to the Rabunim would change there minds if they would have been a victim or if they knew someone close to them that was molested. Bottom line is those people must pay for there actions, I'm living as a victim for over 15 years and the truth must come out to prevent future victims.
I'm speaking for myself and for all the victims out there be strong the time will come for everyone.

You are so right, all the rabbanim say is you cant report because it is Dinai Nifashos, when I asked for whom the answer was for the perps family, they are finding great way to shut up people by twisting facts

67

 May 01, 2009 at 05:24 PM Susan Says:

Reply to #19  
Askupeh Says:

So what are you suggesting that we don’t try to heal these sick people? These sick people could be just about anybody, our father, brother, son or a grandson. If not any of the above it can be our friend’s father, brother or son. Someone has to do it; someone has to take care of OUR problems, will it be you or me? No, therefore Ohel should be applauded for at least trying. If they aren’t doing the best job then let’s encourage them to do better, or let’s establish a better family services center. We should do everything in our ability to heal the victims, but we should also not abandon our sick in their head people.

ohel has not tried, please don't say lies. I am personally aware of their trying and this is how it goe;ohel- who has the real info ; ohel to their CSW- don't go to the person who knows the truth, if he/she wants to talk to you say you are not able to talk now(you have to observe the child...)
Also, I want the world to know that from a reliable source this is another story that happened and it shows how the "rabbanim" or Hatzalah is denying this problem their was a video show on child abuse for teachers in schools and the Hatzaloh volunteer showing it turned off the volume when they spoke about signs and symptoms of sexual abuse, claiming the rabbanim said so.
Any hatzaloh member that cares enough for the safety and well being of our chidren should make a Vayitzaki to the williamsburg branch for allowing and sending out someone to hide the truth and not allow teachers to know what to look out for.

68

 May 02, 2009 at 09:26 PM PMO Says:

Reply to #64  
Anonymous Says:

The problem with this debate is it's driven by revenge not by what's right and how do we protect the inocent and by the way the only adiction that can be totely 100% cured is sexual adiction ask any expert as well let's recall how it workt not all cases are victims and molestor there are cases where 2 young boucherim might have foold around in yeshiva or somthing and they grew up build lives and yes got help and truly changed and than 30 years later one claims abuse by other is it right to destroy evrything that he build his fameliy I'm not sure yes he should take responsebilety and make amends but should we destroy him i'm not sure what he can do but I think we must give ppl a chance some how to come forward and yes get closure and not destroy there lives in the process other wise why should anyone make amends I don't get yes we need a discreet way couse some times both are victims who need help and closure so let's think it thru with out anger and give decrention a chance and if that don't work than I agree burn the guy and this only if we can somehow be sure the person has truly changed and not had any issues since than and by the way I know cases where this has workt I would love hear any ideas that might have a way of dealing with this couse yes it's a complicated issue thanks

"the only adiction that can be totely 100% cured is sexual adiction"

Where do you get your info from? It is actually the exact opposite. The most widely held opinions are that the sex addiction never goes away. It is whether they choose to act on it. That is why many states are considering chemical castration for sex offenders to limit the hormonal urges.

"if we can somehow be sure the person has truly changed and not had any issues since than and by the way I know cases where this has workt"

How do you know if this worked? Would the rapist have told you if he raped again? Give me a break!

"there are cases where 2 young boucherim might have foold around in yeshiva"

That is NOT what we are talking about here. If two 16 year old yeshiva kids decided to engage in disgusting, abhorrent activities of their own free will, that is not a crime under US law.

I am really starting to believe that many people around here are trying to come up with justifications for their own sick, abhorrent actions.... I can't think of another reason why people would take this defensive stance here... I find this incredibly disturbing.

69

 May 03, 2009 at 12:11 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #68  
PMO Says:

"the only adiction that can be totely 100% cured is sexual adiction"

Where do you get your info from? It is actually the exact opposite. The most widely held opinions are that the sex addiction never goes away. It is whether they choose to act on it. That is why many states are considering chemical castration for sex offenders to limit the hormonal urges.

"if we can somehow be sure the person has truly changed and not had any issues since than and by the way I know cases where this has workt"

How do you know if this worked? Would the rapist have told you if he raped again? Give me a break!

"there are cases where 2 young boucherim might have foold around in yeshiva"

That is NOT what we are talking about here. If two 16 year old yeshiva kids decided to engage in disgusting, abhorrent activities of their own free will, that is not a crime under US law.

I am really starting to believe that many people around here are trying to come up with justifications for their own sick, abhorrent actions.... I can't think of another reason why people would take this defensive stance here... I find this incredibly disturbing.

It can be cured 100%.

All you need is a a pine box and a few chevrah with shovels.....

70

 May 03, 2009 at 12:07 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #64  
Anonymous Says:

The problem with this debate is it's driven by revenge not by what's right and how do we protect the inocent and by the way the only adiction that can be totely 100% cured is sexual adiction ask any expert as well let's recall how it workt not all cases are victims and molestor there are cases where 2 young boucherim might have foold around in yeshiva or somthing and they grew up build lives and yes got help and truly changed and than 30 years later one claims abuse by other is it right to destroy evrything that he build his fameliy I'm not sure yes he should take responsebilety and make amends but should we destroy him i'm not sure what he can do but I think we must give ppl a chance some how to come forward and yes get closure and not destroy there lives in the process other wise why should anyone make amends I don't get yes we need a discreet way couse some times both are victims who need help and closure so let's think it thru with out anger and give decrention a chance and if that don't work than I agree burn the guy and this only if we can somehow be sure the person has truly changed and not had any issues since than and by the way I know cases where this has workt I would love hear any ideas that might have a way of dealing with this couse yes it's a complicated issue thanks

Noch ah tzaddik oif yenems cheshbin.

71

 May 03, 2009 at 01:51 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
Victim Says:

Sounds more resonable than the Markey bill, but still has a way to go.

I dont see why the Molestor gets off the hook and the school needs to pay. I dont see why he gets off the hook at all. He ruined sombody's life, he should suffer.

On the other hand, I dont see why the statue of limitation exists in any crime and if there is a reason than it shoulde be no different with molestors, if they managed to hide their crime for long enough and behaved, than he not be held accountable. If Murderer's can go free so should Molesters.

I also believe that the standard the requird quality of proof to convict molestors should be raised. It's necessary to distinguish between real victims and consensual relationships, while they may both be a crime there is a difference, indeed. It will also bring more support for any future bill as the schools will feel that a sincere claim, only, will be valid in court.

Last but not least tort reform is very important so that money should not be an incenitve. Maybe any money being paid out should go into an escrow for the purpose of therepy as to avoid it being spend on other things and be a 100% gurantee to avoid fake claims.

If the school didn't cooperate when they were asked to throw out the molester, they need to pay. This is an inyan of "dinei nefashos", and allowing the crime is just as bad as committing the crime. The schools don't have to worry about money if they finally think they're ready to do the right thing. It's that simple.

72

 May 03, 2009 at 06:01 AM Sherree Says:

Reply to #71  
Anonymous Says:

If the school didn't cooperate when they were asked to throw out the molester, they need to pay. This is an inyan of "dinei nefashos", and allowing the crime is just as bad as committing the crime. The schools don't have to worry about money if they finally think they're ready to do the right thing. It's that simple.

Its really embarrassing how Dovid Zweibel kept side stepping that question last night on the Zev Brenner show. Even though he said the predators themselves should pay he kept steering away from the conspirators and the protectors Kudos to Zev Brenner for keep on bringing it right back to it.

73

 May 03, 2009 at 02:11 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #29  
Anonymous Says:

you're angry and rightfully so. I won't debate you, but ill state that there are (few and far in between, but there are) perpetrators from twenty years ago that have long since cleaned up their act.
What about them. What approach should they take? What can they do to get rid of their guilt and make it up to their victims? Without messing up everything they have built since those days.?
They would love to have closure too, but they don't know where to turn.
would you or anybody else address this issue honestly without anger and yet real ideas.

Nobody wants to put people in jail for nothing. In the Torah Yidden are always given a chance to do teshuva. But they still need to do teshuva to be forgiven. They have only cleaned up their act if they went for proffesional help to get healed. This is alot of work on their part. We're talking about molesters who are still at the crime and far from stopping. These need to be removed by whichever measure works.

74

 May 03, 2009 at 08:14 AM Sherree Says:

I was very disheartened last night listening to Dovid Zweibel on Zev Brenner's show as he kept saying that the Motzos Gedolos along with the Rabbonim from the Torah Umesorah, who by the way when Zev Brenner asked how many are there, was there a vote taken, turned out to be just 20 people, decided on this response; said that they had been discussing this very sad and horrific issue for years now.

Are you all realizing what I am saying, are you all hearing what I heard? They are talking about this for years now and did nothing so far except for talk? They removed no one from the immediate vicinity of children? They could have advised Shua's (a"h) mother to go straight to the police with her information so no else gets hurt, go straight to the abuser's parents with the information and they told her to do nothing and Shua is dead and his abuser is a free man today. As a matter of fact the soul's of all victims are dead and all the abusers are free men today and "THEY" have been discussing it for years now?

I am sorry Dovid, I know you went on the show to make the Motzes sound good and to protect their reputation. You did not do a good job, I could have done a better job because I know that they are basically good men at heart. But as an attorney you are not representing their interests appropriately. They should have and still can retire these pedophiles and they should not waste one more minute. You know who they are and they do as well. If you don't or wish to pretend that you don't then you should do what Dov Hikind did and invite victims to come to the offices of the Agudah and tell their stories. Assure them that their identities will remain confidential and that all you wish to do is to remove their abusers from the Yeshivas they work in and make sure they never work in another Yeshiva, camp or other religious institution again!.

If the victims don't trust you, I am sure we can get hundreds of pro-bono attorneys to accompany them to protect their interests.

75

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