Monsey, NY – In a surprising development Rabbi Yakov Horowitz, dean of Yeshiva Darchei Noam of Monsey, who was one of the first in our community and deserves a tremendous amount of credit for publicly speaking out about the issue of child abuse, and has done so consistently for the past 5 years or so, came out squarely in support of the gedolim of Agudah and Torah Umesorah last night.
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In a short interview at the end of the Zev Brenner show, Rabbi Horowitz informed the audience of an upcoming op-ed column he will be running in this week’s Jewish Press (we will, of course, post his column on VIN as soon as it becomes available) which will articulate his views in support of the gedolim opposing the Markey Bill, which would allow a one-year “window” for people to sue mosdos for abuse that occurred even decades ago.
The interview started late, a few minutes before the end of the program, and time did not permit Rabbi Horowitz to discuss the matter in detail, but he did say that he will return to the Zev Brenner show later in the week after the op-ed column is released to discuss it with Zev and take calls from the public.
Here are some tidbits from his brief interview:
1. It is his experience, that the vast majority of abuse victims – especially the current ones – were abused not by school personnel, but rather by family members, kids on the block; a point he has been making in his columns and lectures for many years now.
2. The Markey Bill does nothing to help children who are in danger from non-school-personnel
3. Schools certainly need to take concrete measures to help protect children
4. It is unfair to claim that the gedolim have done nothing about abuse. He said that as the head of Project YES, which is a division of Agudah, he has been speaking out about abuse for years now, with the full support and blessing of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah.
5. The only thing that will protect children is education and awareness and all the bickering about the Markey Bill is distracting us from doing what we need to do to keep today’s kids safe.
6. Finally; he said that those who are supporting passage of the Markey Bill are presenting it in stark terms – if you support the bill you are for children and if you don’t you are a horrible person who is against children – and that is simply untrue and unfair.
Rabbi Horowitz noted that as he has been saying for years, the only thing that will keep our current children safe – and felt that this should be our highest priority – is a broad-based awareness campaign that will be fully supported and promoted by our rabbinic leadership. The Markey Bill will not accomplish that. Additionally, he emphasized that time has clearly proven that we are not capable of protecting our children from predators and he would much rather see a campaign to inform people to go directly to the authorities when they have information about an active predator than try to deal with it internally.
in closing Rabbi Horowitz said that we should, “Agree to disagree over the Markey Bill and keep our focus on protecting our children,” and hope that a respectful discussion of these issues will truly help do just that.
You can listen to last nights 2 hour entire debate which was featured on the Zev Brenner radio interview where Mark Appel, professor Marci Hamilton, Dr. Lippner, and Chaim Dovid Zwiebel, followed by Yakov Horowitz by clicking below
What are we supposed to do !! Help
Rabbi Horowitz as usual you are the Greatest
what is wrong with the bill?
what a shock, a rav who heads a school protecting schools,all under the claim of “caring for kids”
when are we going to wake up and say to these alleged “gedolim” enough is enough.
perhaps the very reason why horowits is saying this is because his project YES is officially a division of the agudah. rabbi horowitz your org. is a conflict of intrest. remove yoir project from the agudah and do right thing and vote YEs for the markey bill
the aguda oposition to the markey bill will never be forgotten in jewish history.they have and continue to protect the molestors vs the children.the community is smart enough to know their real motive .the fact is 19 arrests this past month proves that we are winning the battle to get rid of this plague without their help.the groups organized supporting this markey bill like justice for kis,survivors for justice will continue their sruggle and bring evrey molestor and institution to justice.yasher koach to dr asherlippner.elliot passick,markmayer appel for leading this fight.
shame shame shame zweibel horowitz ohel
we know that ‘yesh koneh olamo b’sha’ah achas, v’yesh m’abed olamo b’sha’ah achas’: with one action, a person can do a world of good, or R”L a world of bad. sadly, i think we are witnessing R’ Horowitz lose an entire world of good he has done until now with one disastrous decision.
Once again fear is the motivating factor for his failure to act in accordance with what he knows deep down is correct. The fear that the so called gedolim have managed to instill in the masses is nothing less that the Taliban. Bavonoseinu harrabim I wonder what sins we must have done to allow us to be manipulated by fear and trepidation instead of by honesty and integrity.
The torah hakedoshah tell us that “Lo Saguru Mipnei Ish” yet our children have been afraid of their rabbanim and menahelim for decades. They are afraid to speak out against molestation and abuse lest they suffer humiliation and embarrassment. They are afraid to speak out because their parents are afraid lest they lose their jobs and status in the community and the community leaders are afraid because their positions would be jeapardized.
We should all be afraid of not stopping this chillul hashem from continuing and allowing our children to be continuously hurt and abused. Shame on us and shame on our rabonnim.
It’s not enough for these ‘gedolim’ to simply oppose the Bill, if they wanted to take responsibility for the actions of those they protect they would draft a version of a Bill they thought was more aligned with their interests.
At least that way we would know where they really stand.
if the gedolim dont protect our children theyre not gedolim. horowitz is just worried he’ll get his pants sued off since he’s worried about his job with aguda (project yes). this bill will punish the schools that knowingly for years had teachers that abused. torah temima knew for years about kolko yemach shimam but when parents protested they were told to shutup. WHERE WERE YOU THEN HOROWITZ AND AGUDA!!! Now your going to see the repercussions that you deserve!! we should wipe torah temima off the map with all the lawsuits and we will when the markey bill passes!! its all about money to you and aguda. you dont give a flying hoot about our children. i hope we sue you so bad youl have to even sell your old yeshivish jalopey station wagon where you probably abused kids in the back and thats why you oppose this bill. my heart goes out to you because i could almost feel the the heat of Gehinnoms flames under your sick non caring rear end.
THE ABUSE FIGHTER
project YES is a division of agudas yisroel. does it surprise you why r horowits is caving in?
#6 . Good point. However, you are missing another point.
There has always been fear of the leadership if one takes action against a predator. This fear is unfair. One should always have the support of the leaders of the community to challenge and eliminate evil. But the resistance to “mesira”, the circus of publicity, the conduct of proceedings that fall outside the control of the community, and the embarrassment of innocent victims (family, etc.) will always exist – unless we establish a system that allows us to take the necessary steps to prevent and intervene. These must have widespread support from the community leadership. The Markey bill, or any other for that matter, does not address this at all. The bill also singles out parochial schools, while public schools are excluded.
I believe that there is much support, in principle, for much of what appears in Markey. But there are enough other aspects that make it useless, with more likelihood of damaging without benefit to the precious children we seek to protect.
Rabbi Horowitz is also perfectly on target when he notes the prevailing attitude that supporters of Markey are pro-children while those opposed to it are anti-children – an attitude that is completely inaccurate. This message is the proclamation of zealots and fanatics, not those with level heads. I appreciate the passion to have a bill passed that takes positive steps, but one should be more certain that the most important issues are central to a piece of legislation before rushing to pass it. All the Markey bill would do is send a message. I believe the media do that better than legislators. Nice try, Albany. Now let’s write a bill that truly does the job.
I too am very much in favor of doing ALL we can, and more, to protect our children.
But the Markey Bill is wrong.
I can get into hot debates here, but choose not to. I will say though, that the Markey Bill will not help children from abuse, is illegal, unconstitutional, and morally wrong.
Let’s see, we have Marci Hamilton who literally wrote the book on the subject “Justice Denied: What America Must Do to Keep its Children Safe”, all the victims advocates groups in the country, the RCA, Rab Hershel Shacter, Rabbi Blau and Rabbi Weinreb, who are not nogeah b’davar because they do not own yeshivas, the Jewish Board of Advocates for Children (a group of mental health professionals, lawyers rabbis and adult survivors of abuse) all saying that the Markey bill is crucial to protecting our children from being sexually abused.
We have proof of California and Deleware, where the same legislation helped catch hundreds of molesters.
We have Dov Hikind and Shelly Silver (who voted for it 3 times so far) backing the legislation because they feel it will protect kids.
But Rabbi Horowitz wants us to kill the bill because it causes “bickering” with the Gedolim?
Huh?
In the article it says: ” Rabbi Horowitz noted that as he has been saying for years, the only thing that will keep our current children safe – and felt that this should be our highest priority – is a broad-based awareness campaign that will be fully supported and promoted by our rabbinic leadership”
I think that is where the problem lies. We have been too trusting and reliant on Rabbinic Leadership, Aguda, etc for dealing with this problem. It’s time to take on the problem using appropriately trained people, Psychologists, Children Mental Health Experts, and others as opposed to thinking that people who are walled off in the bais medrish will know how to handle these matters.
R. Horowitz has done wonderful work, some with, some without Rabbinic involvement. This is one of the times Rabbinic involvement does more harm than good, and he should acknowledge that and move on without their involvement or blessing. The lay people will be more than willing to support and help him.
In simple terms, any of these so called “Gadolim” who oppose the Markey bill will show themeselves to be part of the problem and effectively will be supporting child molestation. They will define themselves as more concerned with protecting the guilty than protecting the victims. By doing so, they will have abdicated any moral authorithy within the yiddeshe community and thier words on this and any other moral issues should be ignored.
Far too much has been swept under the rug. It’s nice that the Agudah and this rabbi want to do something. I hope it will not be looked at, as “too little, too late.” Oy, where was the community for more than fifty years??! How many of the abused children are now adults with twisted lives and pent up anger?
Still, it is better than nothing. But the thing that bothers me is that if recent events hadn’t brought pressure on the “Gedolim” I feel they would still be busy lifting the rug for the new horrors to be swept quietly in. Rachmanah yatzeelaynoo.
We live in a troubled society where we are expected to deal with the most intricate and delicate issues in the simplest terms of black and white, and we are supposed to have definite opinions about them instantly.
We have no patience (or wisdom) for the deliberate and painstaking process to evaluate all the grey areas – facts, factors, motives, consequences, etc.
As the famous mindless saying goes: “Don’t bother me with the facts, I already made up my mind!”
Well, as those who think more than they type know, life is not nearly so simple, and we “know” much less than we think we know.
Fortunately for all of us, some qualified people still remain in leadership positions in our society, and they b”h have the patience, brains, and most importantly the Siyate DiShamye to address vital issues with the seriousness it deserves, reaching conclusions in accordance with Torah and Mesora. We should pray hard that they continue serving the klal without being intimidated by careless, vicious, and vengeful bloggers.
P.S. Have we sunk so low to accept Mr.and Mrs. “anonymous” as the equivalent or substitutes for Gedolei HaTorah?
who is horowitz to agree or disagree with our graet gedolim?
First of all a big Yasher Koyach for Rabbi Horowitz for all the awareness he has brought to this life and death issue over the past several years. Scharcha Harbey Me’od.
While it is most definitely true, as Reb Yankie says, that most molestation does NOT take place in school, the little that does is much more of a stain on our community’s record. Firstly, the schools are set up to be a place where a child gets indoctrinated into our religion hence the term “chinuch”. While an individual parent or relative hurting a child in the privacy of their own home is a crime, an institution that is supported by the money of our community allowing this to go on is far more eggregious. The thought that people are actually paying exorbitant tuitions to entrust their children with a school that not only does not protect them but harbors and protects child molesters, (as many of our moysdos have done) is horrifying. Secondly, the relative ease with which society can wipe out the scourge from schools by holding them responsible for coverups, makes our lack of action tragic and criminal. The Jewish Board of Advocates for Children has been lobbying our position paper in Albany in which we call for Jewish schools and all non-public schools to have the same safety precautions mandated by law that public schools have. This includes mandated fingerprinting and background checks, mandated safety plans plainly explained to all parents (along the lines of what the camps are now doing but more detailed) mandated reporting of suspicion of abuse to authorities and mandated firing of staff that has abused even once.
Agudas Yisrael is trying to make this argument about money. In fact it would not cost them anything to back our position paper. As of yet they have not agreed to any of these ideas except to the idea of mandated fingerprinting and background checks. However almost no Yeshivah in New York has been carrying this out voluntarily, or else we would not need the mandate. Their position on Rabbis being mandated reporters has been that this violates the Constitutional separation of Church and State. This implies that reporting on a molester is against our religion, chas v’shalom, as opposed to being actually mandated by the Torah when it says “Lo Saamod Al Dam Reyecha”. They have also said that it is unfair to only mandate rabbis as everyone should have to do this, as if the Rabbis do not want the “zchus” and honor that comes with their position of leadership to carry out this mitzvah for the community.
Another “excuse” Agudah has used over and over to explain to survivors of abuse why nothing was being done, is that the rabbis did not realize the severity of and the prevalence of the problem until recently. Apparently they thought that the rabbis that they knew molested kids were the only ones doing it. They must have reasoned that while there have been Roshey Yeshivah and Mashgichim and Rabbanim that have been caught molesting, no poshette yid would ever do such a thing? This simply defies logic. The truth is, of course, that they did know that there was a big problem. The Yated Neeman’s recent editorial says that for the past 5 years the problem has been discussed at virtually every single meeting of the Gedolim. But until now….silence.
It seems that just the possibilty that Markey might pass (as Rabbi Zweibel said last night that until now they felt safe that it would fail in the republican senate) has already gotten our Rabbinic Leadership to start to address the problem, only about 30 years too late for many people. Survivors of abuse and parents who are concerned for their children’s safety can only imagine what its’ actual passing would do.
Last night on Zev Brenner’s show, he offered Rabbi Zweibel a way of closing the gap in communication between the survivors and the Gedolim. Either a “Town hall meeting” with the survivors, rabbis, professionals and advocates in which everyone would get a chance to respectfully voice their opininons and to inform the community of their stories. It is obvious that such a historic event where the gedolim actually communicate with survivors publicly would go a long way to healing the rift that has been caused by so many years of survivors’ voices being silenced.
Anyone interested in joining a support group being put together by adult victims of abuse can contact me at lipnera
gmail.com. To learn more about the JBAC position paper please go to our website at http://www.jewishadvocates.org.
Asher
Let me understand this – most of the abuse in our communities, according to Horowitz, comes from family and kids on the block. That means that a minority of abuse comes from or in yeshivas. If that is so, the yeshivas, according to Horowitz, are not really vulnerable to ancient lawsuits. Thus, according to Horowitz’s logic, the yeshivas and the gedolim should NOT be against the one year window in the Markey bill. Plainly, Horowitz is not being truthfull. All the fuss about the Markey bill, contrary to Horowitz’s outrageous disclaimer, is precisely aimed at helping abused children and helping prevent further abuse. The one year window would help identify predator molestors, as it plainly did in California where the equivalent of the Markey bill was wisely passed and some 300 molesters were publicly identified. Horowitz is being is being disingenuous and revealing himself as being a barefaced shameless shill for the Agudah, which is cowering because its Camp Agudah is named in the Kolko and other cases. Shame on you Yakov Horowitz !!
Are any of the “gedolim” going to get arrested because of this bill?
A WHOLE LOT OF NOTHING…..
1. It is his experience, that the vast majority of abuse victims – especially the current ones – were abused not by school personnel, but rather by family members, kids on the block; a point he has been making in his columns and lectures for many years now……SO BECAUSE WE CAN’T GET ALL OF THEM, (I.E THE NON-SCHOOL ABUSERS) WE SHOULD GET NONE OF THEM? HOW DOES THAT MAKE ANY SORT OF SENSE?
2. The Markey Bill does nothing to help children who are in danger from non-school-personnel…AGAIN, MAKE ANOTHER BILL FOR NON-SCHOOL PERSONNEL, THIS ONE IS FOCUSING ON SCHOOL PERSONNEL
3. Schools certainly need to take concrete measures to help protect children…BY DOING WHAT? AND WHY DOES THAT MAKE THE MARKEY BILL BAD?
4. It is unfair to claim that the gedolim have done nothing about abuse. He said that as the head of Project YES, which is a division of Agudah, he has been speaking out about abuse for years now, with the full support and blessing of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah….OFF TOPIC, WE’RE TALKING ABOUT THE MARKEY BILL HERE – WHY WON’T THEY SUPPORT THAT?
5. The only thing that will protect children is education and awareness and all the bickering about the Markey Bill is distracting us from doing what we need to do to keep today’s kids safe….NOT TRUE. SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WILL PROTECT CHILDREN IS EDUCATION AND AWARENESS, OTHER, MORE EFFECTIVE THINGS THAT WILL PROTECT CHILDREN IS LOCKING UP THE ABUSERS. STOP WITH THE WORD MANIPULATION, THAT IS WHAT IS DISTRACTING US FROM PASSING THE BILL AND DOING WHAT WILL ACTUALLY KEEP TODAY’S KIDS SAFE
6. Finally; he said that those who are supporting passage of the Markey Bill are presenting it in stark terms – if you support the bill you are for children and if you don’t you are a horrible person who is against children – and that is simply untrue and unfair….WHY????AGAIN A BUNCH OF WORDS, A WHOLE LOT OF GARBAGE
It is readily apparent that there are two basic schools of thought regarding Rabbi Horowitz. The first is that RH has been one of the people responsible (at great personal cost) of making the general public aware of the general problem and creating a call to action before this cause became popular – and for the people who see it that way – the logical conclusion is that his opinions deserve a lot of deference; and the other group of responders who fell that although he has always supported the plight of the abused – they state as fact but at best are speculating that he has has been influenced by the undue influence of the Agudah, moetses etc .
While I will not go into if the Moezes has certain facts or are deservant of some deference – I think it is important to note a few things:
1. It is infantile to say that we recognize the efforts of someone who has taken on the plight of the abused before it became popular until there is one area of disagreement — especially where it is clear in the article that RH did not have enough time to articulate his postion, was writing an article and would return to radi to discuss his position. From my perspective the nay sayers are ready to condemn before they lisyten — that is not a responsible position
2. The issue of opening the floodgates for litigation going back many many years will not help us on a forward going basis. If you dont believe me take a moment and think about how many reforms were caused by all the publicity and outrage the TT and Kolko story brought — virtually none.
3. RH on whose doorstep many of these cases land (as he is on the front lines) and deals with mental health professionals has ststed the the majority of these cases are not school based and that the bill as presented does not and in his experience will not provide the sought after improvement.
4. Assuming there was a chance to go after a mossad for events that took place 25 or 30 years ago, for the acts of teachers/rebbes who are no longer there and for the inaction of principals who are also no longer there — and the lawsuits were successful — meaning that the current administration was distracted from the work they so desperately have to do, and ultimately if they were able to win the cases and prevail the attorneys would get a third, the expenses would eat up a sustantial chunk the remainder to the victim — and then the yeshivas would be evicted from their buildings to pay for all of this — is this what YOU want — remember nobody has any idea what will come out of the woodwork or how many false claims will be asserted if the windoew is opened — it may be your childern or granchildren who will not have where to learn tomorrow because of acts that may or may not have happened before many readers of this column were even born
5. Are you still SURE you want to villify RH
Kudos Asher, you are nailing the points right on the target in a straight forward and intellectually honest manner. The opposition to the Markey bill just does not pass the smell test. There already was a town hall meeting years ago with Rav Pam and Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky. Obviously it did not help much. Strict legislation is required in order to clean up the past mess,prevent this from happening in the future, and to restore confidence in our schools.
Rabbi zweibel and rabbi horowitz were both beating around the bush last night. They kept on saying they are for the children and feel very bad for the victims, but they didn’t offer any solutions. All they said is the markey bill won’t solve the problem. It might not solve the problem in full but it sure will make schoold more responsible.
Why dosent Horowitsz just say that the gedoilim don’t suppport the bill and that’s it.
do we need his own reasons why not to support it? The very fact that he’s against itnot for the reason that the gedolim are against it but for his own reason that abuse happens out of school too, comes to show that he dosent agree with the rabbanim
he’s trying to be politiclly correct by satisfying both the right and the left
We on the right go by daas torah and what yanky horowitz says or dosent say dosent factor at all.
It is simply assinine to suggest that the Markey bill will be used to shut down yeshivas. Please, save the moronic posts for other sites.
Sadly, Yanky has thrown in the towel in support of a disgraceful cadre of beards who live in la la land. And as a dean of yeshiva, are we REALLY surprised.
The data from other state’s on what the Markey bill will accomplish is astounding. Yanky is merely throwing a red herring at us with his shmeydrei about family members. Of course, and obviously, the Markey bill won’t address family members who molest – not every bill can accomplish every goal. But that is simply no reason not to support this bill.
Yanky has been a supporter of our youth that has been raped by his fellow beards. But when it comes to tachlis the almighty sheqel is really what we wish we did hagbah on. And clearly Yanky is beholden to the elders of Zion as much as any other beard.
The Markey bill deserves the full support of anyone hoping to stop rabbeim from raping our children. Sorry Yanky, this reader sees right through your ridiculous logic. We have to start somewhere. Sure, we can agree to disagree. But I certainly respect the likes of you, who are meakeiv the geulah, regardless of whether or not you think what you are doing is right.
Of course one hand washes the other!!! He gets the support from the school and vise verse!!!!
Shame on u reb yankel. I liked u as head counselor and as mechonech, and now u got it all wrong!!!
Horowitz with all the hoopla is not the sharpest knife in the block. Good PR though. Even in his own Yeshiva was ‘promoted’ upstairs to dean….Ask any Aguda insider who doesn’t drink their kool aid….
The Forward has a strong article. They are anit das etc. and so is the main media which considers us ultra orthodox & homophobic. They will find more and more “Pinnys” and this issue will not go away.
Another point: large pecentage of the moloesters are ‘connected’; either from rabbinical families; chinuch people; wealthy etc. so they can put pressure for protection.. that is another reason why they want to ‘keep it inhouse’ because by the NYPD they have no protection & they will have to go through the legal process.
The only way this will be solved: if 50 of the molesters do time from 5 to 10 years in Attica.
Im not to familiar with this marky bill, but one thing I do know, I see on one side people like mark appel a dr of YU and other modren orthdox people, who don’t have any connection with the Torah, or with the people who learn Torah, they just know a few aron kodesh words like: “lo samod al dam reicho etc” and on the other side I see people like rabbi zwibel, who for years is an askan and b”h is in the top of the agudah today, we can say that in our ays he is the reb moshe sherer, a smart person, knows what he is doing, and he is not doing any thing on his own, the same thing with rabbi horowitz, then we know who to foolow and who to listen. And we should all call our state officals they should vote agains the marky biil
Blogger Malach HaMovies said…
Last night i heard Mark Appel. Boy oh Boy was he on fire !! He blasted the Agudah and Ohel with relish. He also brought up the fact that Aron Schechter from Chaim Berlin ignored a hazmana (many hazmanas) from R’ Moshe Feinstein to resolve a din torah !!
David Zweibel came out later to talk about the “gedolim’s opposition to the Markey bill. He whined that our “HEILIGE” mosdos, shuls and camps will become bankrupt. Halavai !!
Rabbi Zweibel,
Let me ask you something. Would you be defending the Yeshivas as “Heilig” if every few weeks the menahael would bring down strippers from manhattan and they would put on a lesbian sex act show for the bachurim ? Obviously not. You wouldn’t even call it a yeshiva no matter how black their borsalino is and no matter how many dafim of gemorah they mastered,
The Mosdos that allowed Rebbis to rape our boys are no better then the scenario that i outline above,
They are not yeshivas. They are not Heilig. And they must be financially destroyed.
Listen folks, there should be no shock and awe that Yanky has thrown in the towel. His bread and butter comes from the beards he’s protecting. This canard about uncle’s and cousins being the real problem is his way of trying to save face when he knows full well that the Kolkos of the world ARE the real problem.
Yanky knows, for example, that when cousin Yankel rapes little Shmuley, there’s very little the Agudah can do. This is a crime, and the proper venue for fighting the cousins, uncles and relatives who are pedophiles is the legal system. Whether it’s the police, 9-1-1, the DA, CPS, if a family member is a ,olestor, the way to go, the ONLY way to go, is get duly constitiuted authority involved. IN OTHER WORDS, we DON’T NEED legislation for the family member perv, all we need to do is call the cops. Yanky knows this.
Yet he throws this up as the big problem with the Markey bill. Why? Because as a beard, he can’t bite the hand that feeds him. Period. OF COURSE he knows that this bill won’t bankrupt any yeshivas. That’s just another canard. The bill is about justice, not business. Yanky knows that in Delaware and Cali, not a single private school was bankrupted BUT almost 400 – yes folks FOUR HUNDRED pervs, molestors and rapists, just like the ones we have as rabbeim in our classrooms – were caught and removed from a position where they had access to defenseless youth.
Yanky, sorry we put so much pressure on you, we thought you had the cojones. Not your fault really. Let’s hope when you called Zev’s show you were winking and had your fingers crossed.
The Agudah, as I have written before in these pages, is a useless band of old fools, driven by antiquated notions of the inherent good people. The reality is the Kolkos of this world don’t play by the rules, and it will take a lot of tough love to get to a point where our children are really safe. One way to help is to send a strong message to the Agudah beards and the Yanky Horowitz’s that cowtow to them, that their day is done, they are more than welcome to sit in their chairs and upshlug all the toisfis they want at their shtenders. But when it comes to protecting our kids, let the Law handle it. The beards have proven they are incapable. If Markey is the shaliach, and she’s the path to safety for our youth, than I’ll take her over some bearded rekkel any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.
IshChayil Says:
Reply to #36 Show Quote
Oracle Says:
“ Regardless of all the fancy platitudes that you employ, the bottom line remains unchanged. The Agudah, Gedolim (?!!!), Ohel, Horowitz, et. al., are not addressing the damage wrought upon abused children, whether it happened 5 days ago or 50 years ago. Nor are efforts to identifying presently unknown molesters being advanced. No proposed legistlation is ever perfect. Nevertheless, the Markey bill does target the main issues.
This that the Orthodox Jewish community has qualms about reputations, shidduchim, etc., etc., are no diffirent if the perpetrator was committing a mugging, which we plainluy understand requires an immediate call to the police.
You are quite right that whatever the Agudah and lackeys say against the Markey bill are automatically discounted because everything is being judged, and must be judged, from the perspective of an abused child. Period. ”
You are dead wrong! This issue can not be fixed “from the perspective of the abused child” it must be dealt with from the perspective of Daas Torah and the greater interest of Klal Yisroel.
No one doubts the seriousness of the issue. The question is how to deal with it, without destroying the institutions that are responsible for the future of Klal Yisroel.
You seem to have no qualms about undermining the entire foundation of our chinuch, for the sake of avenging the misdeeds of a few rochtzim.
The Rabonim are struggling to find a solution while at the same time preserving the future of our generations, beDerech haTorah veHayire.
It is very easy to incite mass hysteria about emotionally explosive issues, and to seek quick fixes to appease the resulting media-induced outcry.
On the other hand, fundamentally fixing the problem needs tremendous Torah-based wisdom, careful deliberation, and above all Siyate Dishmaye.
Sadly I find little of the above in most comments here.
What are you talking about ???? The Rabonim had no problem closing the Volozhin Yeshiva because the russian government wanted to include secular studies. What happened ? Volozohn closed and Slabodika and other yeshivas replaced Volozhin. That what needs to be done now.
To “The abuse fighter” and all others –
As a survivor myself, I really appreciate your feelings on our behalf. It is nice to know that people are waking up, and that they really care.
That being said, I really think that the bill can do more harm than good. I know that you are going to slam me for this, but what’s going to happen is that every yokel who wants to find excuses for how he has messed up in his life is going to start claiming that the rebbe who was a bit wierd must for sure have been a child molestor, and OF COURSE it happened to him. Not only that, but it can get to the point where the person honestly believes that it happened. (This is true, and it does happen…I have seen it, and experienced it in my work with survivors and pseudo-survivors.) Hashem has ways of getting the true molestors out of the woodwork (or the wood closet), and we have to believe that they will get busted (all it takes is one kid). But to ruin the life of someone completely innocent – not to mention the lives of all of his children and other family members – is completely irresponsible, and goes completely kneged halacha.
Again, I truly appreciate your dedication – I am sure that you are getting schar upstairs beyond your wildest dreams. But please understand that people have been ruined for no good reason, and it’s just not worth it.
The extent of the sinah to anything remotely representing Torah is so evident in these comments. As long as u thought R Horrowitz was a sonei Torah u sang his praises. Now that he is not fitting into ur agenda u can write him off.
You are all despicable bitter self hating jews.
Its pathetic we must fight between ourselves to protect our innocent children. aguda and now horowitz are putting money before our children. they would rather PROTECT THE SICK DISGUSTING DEMENTED PREDATORS LIKE KOLKO AND OTHERS (WHO SOME OF THEM ARE STILL IN OUR YESHIVAS) THAN OUR INNOCENT CHILDREN. I CANNOT FATHOM HOW SOME PEOPLE HERE STAND BEHIND AGUDA AND THEIR ANONYMOUS ‘GEDOLIM’. YOU PEOPLE SHOULD SPEAK TO VICTIMS. HOW WOULD YOU LIKE IT IF RABBI KOLKO GAVE YOUR CHILD ‘PRIVATE TUTORING’ ALONE IN HIS OFFICE? THESE PEOPLE HAVE GONE THROUGH THINGS YOU CANNOT IMAGINE AND NOW YOU AND AGUDA WANT TO DENY THEM BASIC RIGHTS AS A HUMAN BEING BY NOT ALLOWING THEM TO SUE AND REVEAL THESE MOLESTERS TO PREVENT FURTHER DAMAGE. AGUDA AND ITS SUPPORTERS SHOULD HIRE KOLKO AND HIS FRIENDS AS ROSHEI YESHIVA AND WE’LL SEE HOW MANY OF YOU SEND YOUR KIDS THEIR. THEIR VIEWS ARE BLATANTLY AGAINST THE TORAH AND YOU PEOPLE JUST CLOSE YOUR EYES TO THAT AND STILL WORSHIP THE GROUND THESE ‘RABBONIM’ WALK ON. ONE DAY, MAY HASHEM PUT BRAINS IN YOUR HOLLOW HEADS AND WE CAN UNITE IN THE FIGHT AGAINST CHILD SEX ABUSE
THE ABUSE FIGHTER
to the abuse fighter and shaul in monsey, you are very passionate about this issue,and to attribute it to the fact that you are doing it b/c you care about the children so much is clearly not the real issue over here, do you honestly think that publicly ripping anyone who disagrees w u in vin the right way to go? why not call one of the gedolim or meet w one they r very accesible and voice ur concern over there? its obvioulsy a very important issue? and maybe, i know it might be a very small chance in your mind but if they r right and u are wrong , what is g-d going to think about the lashon hara you are speaking? is it really worth risking that much olam haba ?
#64 & #65 are indisputably accurate in their judgment of what is deficient on behalf of abuse victims.
Dov Hikind must be commended for his dauntless campaign in opening the door to this horor show. Mark Meir Appel, Asher Lipner, Zev Brenner and all who are up-front in the battle against continued child abuse are true heros.
Sadly, the Agudah, Torah Umesorah, Zweibel (and the ghost of Sherer), Moetzes, Horowitz will be remembered for their disgracefull malfeasance in helping abuse victims and shamefull failure in protecting our children from continued future abuse.
Regardless of how frum one is, regardless of how much one relies on his rabbi, rebbe, or rosh yeshiva, if he were being physically attacked by a mugger, there would be no thought of first contacting the rabbi, rebbe, or rosh yeshiva before calling the police. If his house was being broken into, would a call be made to a rabbi, rebbe, or rosh yeshiva to discuss the need for teshuva ? – Or would one immediately pick up the phone and call the police.
Dina Demalchusa dina requires us to immediately report child abusers. Any hesitation, any qualms of loshon hora or don lekaf zechus, are against daas Torah and against halacha. For the Moetzes to fail to respond forthrightly to this issue is a major embarrassment to the Orthodox Jewish community.
torah says: al pi ‘shni edim’ yokim dovor– not a acouser! not ‘all’ abouse has clear ponishments! that our torah . from the “ONE that created the world not deomorcy of over100 ‘people’ in albany. SO YES we DO need our gedolim to tell us what to do YOU can’t pasken your self becouse each case is diffrent! think!!! how many people were wrongly accoused??? maybe?? when you don’t go w/derech ha’torah U NEVER KNOW!?!?!?!
Is the RCA the only ones with the guts to say the right thing???
torah says: al pi ‘shni edim’ yokim dovor– not a acouser! not ‘all’ abouse has clear ponishments! that our torah . from the “ONE that created the world not deomorcy of over100 ‘people’ in albany. SO YES we DO need our gedolim to tell us what to do YOU can’t pasken your self becouse each case is diffrent! think!!! how many people were wrongly accoused??? maybe?? when you don’t go w/derech ha’torah U NEVER KNOW!?!?!?!
I’ll say it again, Rabbi Horowitz is ONLY on the side of Agudah!
To Shaul from Monsey,
I fully agree that whatever bill, as little it might help, should be supported by all. Those who do not support with excuses should be exposed.
HOWEVER, the style of your comments and selection of words would make Shtriecer from the Shturmer very proud, my friend. “Elders of Zion” “fellow beards” etc.
Shame on you…
To cloak the mantle of fighting for abused children while donning a swastika is grotesque and hideous.
To Shaul from Monsey,
I fully agree that whatever bill, as little it might help, should be supported by all. Those who do not support with excuses should be exposed.
HOWEVER, the style of your comments and selection of words would make Shtriecer from the Shturmer very proud, my friend. “Elders of Zion” “fellow beards” etc.
Shame on you…
To cloak the mantle of fighting for abused children while donning a swastika is grotesque and hideous.
although at times ive been a bit critical of some of his views (although his intentions are always good ) rabbi horowitz , THIS TIME HE IS RIGHT ON TARGET!!!
this bill is a kneejerk reaction to a very painful & emotionaly charged issue. this bill is a step in the wrong direction
DR. LIPNER – YOU MENTIONED ZEV BRENNERS REQUEST FOR A TOWN HALL MEETING. its innocent yet niave
I AM IN THE PARTY BUSINESS & SPEND NUMEROUS NIGHTS WORKING DINNERS… i am zoche to closely observe the roshei yeshiva & rebbes ..during these dinners i can attest as can so many others ” that the gedolim have no need for town hall meetings “THEIR DAYS & NIGHTS ARE FILLED WITH THE NEEDS OF THE INDIVIDUAL & KLAL..” they know better than all of us “tzorchei amcha
“yehi ratzon leayem banu chachmei yisroel ..
To Shaul from Monsey,
I fully agree that whatever bill, as little it might help, should be supported by all. Those who do not support with excuses should be exposed.
HOWEVER, the style of your comments and selection of words would make Shtriecer from the Shturmer very proud, my friend. “Elders of Zion” “fellow beards” etc.
Shame on you…
To cloak the mantle of fighting for abused children while donning a swastika is grotesque and hideous.
To Shaul from Monsey,
I fully agree that whatever bill, as little it might help, should be supported by all. Those who do not support with excuses should be exposed.
HOWEVER, the style of your comments and selection of words would make Shtriecer from the Shturmer very proud, my friend. “Elders of Zion” “fellow beards” etc.
Shame on you…
To cloak the mantle of fighting for abused children while donning a swastika is grotesque and hideous.
reply to #101 & 105:
all I said (c 4 your self) is that becouse (if u are an erlica yid)we are bound to listen to the ‘ribono sel oloms torah’ in these cases WE can not pasekin alone (its not like you found trefa hotdogs in a kosher resterate) there-for only way to deal with this is with our rabonim! sorry you feel diffetly! we are elichah yidden he gave us the torah ! don’t be smarter the the one who made it & yyou&the whole wide world !? yes we do need daas torah in this case!!!!!
It is so sad that we are volleying the ball back and forth and missing the whole point. Yes WE are all going to follow the Torah, but the Torah can not be bent to suit our own purposes. The Gedolim that we turn to for advice can not be nogeah b’davar, they cannot have a vested interest in the outcome of the decision or you can be sure that their decision is not based on the facts but on the results they wish the outcome to be.
That said, we are B”H blessed with many different Rabbonim who are just as qualified as the 20 give or take that were asked to weigh in on this decision and who many have already did. What makes you say that these Rabbonim or more knowledgeable or more reliable than those of the RCA or the Igud Harabonim and therefore those are the 20 Rabbonim that we have to listen to? The RCA represents 1000 rabbonim, and the OU had Rabbonim that support the bill as does Yeshiva University Rabbonim. Who are you to say which rabbonim are more chashuv or more learned than the others. And by the way, there are many Rabbonim who are members of both the Moetzes Hagadoles / Torah Umesorah and the RCA.
And for those who have said otherwise let me make this perfectly clear WE ALL FOLLOW THE TORAH whether we are chareidei, yeshivish, litvish, or modern orthodox. Shame on you for saying otherwise.
So lets not fight amongst ourselves and lets review the facts:
While the Agudah’s most reliable and Chashuv Rabbonim were sympathizing and reviewing the facts, and discussing, discussing and discussing some more, they did nothing to remove the perpetrators and save the children. Not because they didn’t have the opportunity but because they didn’t choose to do so. Shall we give them more time to talk this over? Why didn’t Rabbi Feldman, one of the 20, remove the pedophile from his yeshiva when he knew full well what he was doing? He was informed. Why did he not excuse himself from this discussion knowing full well he was a nogeah b’davar.
For that matter, Rabbi Reuven Feinstein whose cousins the Tendlers are involved in the parsha should have excused himself from this discussions as well, as his family is nogeah b’davar. Although they themselves are Ehrliche yiddin, they are just too close to the parsha to be objective and not try to protect the people they care about.
Does this make sense to the rest of you. I am sorry that I am naming the names of the gedolim, but you just refuse to understand unless I make it dummy proof.