Montreal, Canada – Chassidic Schools Giving Up Fight Against Secular Curriculum

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    Montrreal chasidic communityMontreal, Canada – Quebec’s chassidic communities are denying that negotiations with the provincial education department aimed at making all their schools conform to the law have broken down, and that at least one school is facing legal action.

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    Citing documents obtained under the Access to Information Act, La Presse published articles this month suggesting Education Minister Michelle Courchesne is reaching the end of her patience with the schools.

    She is recommending that the case of the Satmar community’s Yeshiva Toras Moshe be referred to the attorney general because it continues to operate without a permit. Its permit was removed because it teaches mostly religious studies, with insufficient time spent on the secular curriculum prescribed by law.

    The chassidic schools have been under extra scrutiny by the education department for the past 2-1/2 years, ever since La Presse and other Quebec media began reporting that some of these schools are not complying with the Education Act. They found that few secular studies are taught, particularly in the boys’ schools and especially at the high school level.

    The articles in La Presse describe little progress in talks between the ministry and, not only Satmar, but also the Belz and Skver communities, whose high schools are also said to not be adequately teaching the provincial curriculum, at least, in the boys’ schools. All Quebec children must remain in school until they are at least 16.

    The schools under review have a total of 700 students, according to the ministry.

    In a rare public statement, the Jewish Orthodox Community Council (JOCC), which represents the chassidic communities in the Outremont area, admits that the Satmar school, which is an elementary school, hasn’t been operating legally, but that it is in “intense negotiations” with the ministry to obtain its permit and has, in fact, just completed renovations on a new 45,000-square-foot facility.

    The JOCC also acknowledges that the three high schools have “not been operating in full conformity” with the education department’s requirements, and “as such, their legality was in question.”

    “After discussions between the [ministry] and those three secondary schools, an agreement was signed that will lead them to become legal schools, and from what we know they have been following their commitments in that agreement.”

    But the statement also goes on to say that these schools have been operating with the government’s knowledge for a long time, some for more than 50 years, and “never had any problems.” Yeshiva Torahs Moshe opened in 1952.

    The JOCC also notes that the Satmar schools have never received government funding.

    All schools in the province, however, whether they receive government funding or not, are required to abide by the Education Act.

    JOCC spokesperson Max Lieberman had little to add. “We stand by the facts [in the press release]. Nothing has happened. The documents [cited by La Presse] are old documents,” he said.


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    40 Comments
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    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Teach Jewish history, math with measurements, etc from the Torah, biology by teaching what the Torah says about the body or about animals, Rashi’s French, writing skills by teaching students to write essays on Torah topics, etc.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    While I’m not a big fan of government interference in private schools, when these yeshivot ingore the law and don’t provide the minimal secular instruction necessary for these yinglach to function in Quebec society, there needs to be change. The menahels and rebbes responsible for this should be fired and competent educators brought in. There is no reason why balance cannot be achieved and these schools become legal

    Abe
    Abe
    14 years ago

    Mr. #2 , we’re talking about high school here. How much of what’s taught in high school is necessary to function in the Quebec society?

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Imo having specific time requirements for secular studies is not the right approach, and instead the government should administer more standardized tests to make sure secular studies are of sufficient quality for both religious schools and for those who home school their children. It is not about the quantity of time for secular education but the quality of it that is important.

    Been there before
    Been there before
    14 years ago

    The Greeks tried to force their curriculum, the communist theirs, and the Quebec government will go the same way. Torah lasts.

    ShatzMatz
    ShatzMatz
    14 years ago

    don’t be fooled into thinking that the quebec govt has the interest of the children at heart. they are simply trying to force their bloved ‘french’ language down the throat of unwilling citizens. Do they commend the jewish girl schools for doing an excellent job in educating their students at a fraction of the cost of public schools? How about revoking the permits of all schools that has a large portion of students who test positive for drugs or which half the girls are pregnant. that would put more of the goyish schools in the same position as the jewish ones. why should the criteria for being a legal school be based strictly on the curriculum? how about looking at the moral decedance of the students also? more french ‘pepsis’ end up on welfare that satmars.

    MtlJEW
    MtlJEW
    14 years ago

    to #1 and 2, Don’t tell us how to be mechanech our children. Now go back to watching porn.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Socialism at work. Consider yourself warned America; this is what’s waiting for us here with the BHO administration.

    Dag
    Dag
    14 years ago

    We are in Golus. Let’s not forget that. If they don’t meet the standards, the schools will be shut and the children forced to attend Public Schools. Which is the lesser of 2 evils?

    DEEPTHINKER
    DEEPTHINKER
    14 years ago

    I don’t get it? Are the Satmar Hasidic children growing up to be criminals, druggies, homeless people? Why is the Government coming down on them?

    Thank G-D for the Amish, here in America, who fought a similar case before the Supreme Court in the 1950’s (Yoder vs. Wisconsin) and won the right to skip high school, based on their religious freedom.

    Hasidic schools in America are protected by the Amish precedent.

    Montreal Man
    Montreal Man
    14 years ago

    Knowing the insides here. There is and was a verbal understanding with government Representatives (even ministers) all these years, Those govn’t reps understood that they have to respect our culture, what happened was, that there was an election a couple of years ago, and it was the first time in a long period that there was minority government here, so the opposition was trying to get as much critic on the government as possible. Than the orthodox schools here came to spotlight because of a fire that was set by a terrorist on one of the orthodox schools here, The opposition together with the media started to scrutinize all the orthodox schools here, and would not let this issue slip away.
    Now to all negative orthodox commenters here. The goyim in the government all these years, until it became a media issue, had more sympathy to our religion than you guys. not very impressive.

    A Montrealer
    A Montrealer
    14 years ago

    Those reading this article should be aware that all children in the province are treated by the law as native French speakers — unless one of the parents went to an English school in Quebec. Therefore, here “secular studies” means learning math, geography, Quebec history (mostly the church), etc. — all in the French language and taking exams as if they are native French speakers.

    My daughters learn the complete secular curriculum as mandated by the government, and graduate high school unable to communicate in French. The program does not prepare them to function in society, not in Quebec nor anywhere else.

    The French press (especially the radio) has been inciting against the Jewish community for some time now; searching for cases and blowing them out of proportion. The situation is not good.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Raboisai don’t you see this is the yetzer horas tactics hayoim uimer asei cach machor uimer asei cach. The netziv closed down the yeshiva in volozin because the govt. Wanted to impose similiar secular studies we have to listen to true daas torah the torah didn’t change since the netziv did it?

    Gevald!!!!!
    Gevald!!!!!
    14 years ago

    We should all go out and protest. The Canadian gov’t should step out of the way and let us raise our children the way we want. Satmar never took money from them for that reason. This is a serious form of religious repression. By the way, this will happen is the US too if we let the socialist take over.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    The next thing they’ll want is for our kids to learn about their religions.

    real montrealer
    real montrealer
    14 years ago

    To # 16 you are full of hot air. R’ Hirshprungs bais Yaakov and the other girl schools except Satmar teaches a lot more secular studies than what the Gov wants for the boys. The chasidish boys grow up knowing almost nothing at all & when they want to take a course to advance in life with 3 children they are up the creek without a paddle. The boys should be given a chance to get a High school leaving. I am one of the screwed kids. I wish I would have had the chance to get a degree and speak fluent french. Most comment are nonsense.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    I’ve gone to Satmar in Montreal some years ago, and they “do” teach some basic French, which is enough to get by in Montreal. What the Government wants them to teach is not in accordance to what anyone would teach in a chasidishe school. Satmar has never taken a penny from the government, and they should mix out. Like somebody mentioned above, they simply want to push their “beloved” French language down their throats..

    PMO
    PMO
    14 years ago

    The real problem is that far too many yeshivos are pumping out bochurim without enough of an education to make a living. FAR too many end up on all kinds of social assistance. Setting a minimum standard in order to keep these kids from living off the backs of everyone else is not an unreasonable request.

    When I read some of the posts around here it is abundantly clear from the spelling alone that many never got more than a 3rd grade education. It is embarassing, and oddly tends to be the people who defend welfare and food stamps.

    Just wait until the people of the US and Canada decide they’ve had enough of paying a lifetime of welfare and foodstamps to people who CHOOSE to be ignorant and uneducated. One day the socialist programs will just run out of money. Then what will you do? Beg in the street because you were too stupid to get an education while you had the chance?

    If you can find a way to make a living with little to no education, good for you. However, most men will find themselves very lost without it – forced to work low-paying jobs and then live off the rest of us like parasites.

    Wow… that is something for a community to be really proud of.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Ask any yeshivah (de vimy) graduate who made the choice, in spite of discouragement from rebbeim, to enroll in cegep just how far behind they were 1st semester. This is a very serious problem in all frum schools in montreal.

    i heard
    i heard
    14 years ago

    i heard that the Lubavitch Cheder in Montreal was trying to add french to the curriculum, but from what i understood it never happened due to “lack of interest” (the parents threatened not to send their kids to school), but they do have a optional secular studies program.

    Student
    Student
    14 years ago

    What’s wrong with a simple secular education??????????
    i grew up in Williamsburg and the thing taught was Yiddish. These days I am a college student and still have problems with basic English.
    My opinion is that every Chasidisha mosad should teach at least some secular studies. I mean for the sake of Gd we live in America or in that case Canada some basic American history 101 won’t kill you or make u a goy.
    The Chasidisha yeshivas should look in places such as Flatbush Queens or even Lakewood where the day for kids is divided, a few ours Torah and then some secular studies. Places like Williamsburg the whole English Dept is made into a joke they just have to offer it in order to get the Gov. Programs. The teachers don’t even know proper English in some cases. How great is that??????
    My point is not that we should cut down on Torah studies, only we should teach our children a basic education which includes some secular studies.
    My grandparents grew up on Poland and as far as i know they speak polish fluently. They all do.
    It’s a shame to walk in Williamsburg or Boro park and see people that were born in this country and don’t know simple English.
    Don’t we owe our kids an opportunity to be able to go out, do business and be able to read, write, and talk basic English????? I know people in Williamsburg that wouldn’t be able to read this article. It’s just simply sad.
    Than you
    P.s. sorry if the grammar is not right. Like I said I grew up in Williamsburg so just bare with me

    Rochel
    Rochel
    14 years ago

    I think it’s a good thing to teach both koydesh and chol, it’s important to give a proper education, and since the law requires a minimum of studies in every school like religious ones here, until the age of 16, I think the kids still have plenty of time to study koydesh full time from the age of 16 until they get married… I don’t like the comparison of the greek and communists, because this is totally different, the government doesn’t try to make jews give up the torah and the teachings, just to coincide with both, legally, then they are free to do whatever they wish… Satmar doesn’t run everything they still need to respect the rules and laws otherwise they should send their kids study somewhere else, and I disagree with their school system

    Research
    Research
    14 years ago

    A study was carried out in Monsey NY 2 years ago. The results were astounding. Those 19 year old Talmidim that finished high school could learn better nearly 2 to 1, than those that went to Yeshiva Katana rather than secular classes.

    Miss Williamsburg
    Miss Williamsburg
    14 years ago

    I agree with what you say. By a solid secular ducation I meant English and I meant for all Chassidishe Chederim, whether in Canada, New York, England etc. Bringing out that the girl’s speak French fluently in Canada was just a side note, to point out that the girls do get a good education.

    PMO
    PMO
    14 years ago

    Clearly your understanding of the word “socialism” is right up there with your understanding of the English language.

    Things like welfare, food stamps, medicaid, etc. are all socialist programs. Taking money from people who actually earn a living (taxation) and distributing it to others in order to create a more “equal” society is by definition “socialism”.

    The fact is that freeloaders use these ‘social’ programs (where do you think the word ‘socialist’ comes from) to take my hard earned money for themselves. They CHOOSE not to work, or CHOOSE not to educate themselves in order to make a living. Why is that my problem? Why do I have to work harder to pay for you? The government has made these low-lifes MY problem. The government has FORCED me to pay for your uneducated, ignorant, freeloading, ridiculous lifestyle.

    It is a disgusting and humiliating practice that people should be ashamed of. Instead, they sit around and laugh while they come up with more dishonest schemes to get more money out of ME. I work VERY hard for what I’ve got, and you have no right to live off of my hard work. GO GET A JOB!

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    I once heard that the primary reason that chassidishe mosdos do not give a proper secular education is to retain the flock as shoimre hadas. The lack of education ensures that rov hatzibur remains unable to support themselves , and thereby promotes anius. It is commonly accepted that , just like there are no atheists in foxholes, poverty and desperation lead to a greater dvaikus to frumkeit. Whether we agree or not , it seems that the utmost importance is given to maintaining a frum and observant community filled with yiras shomaim.

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