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Israel - Environmentalists Against Hundreds of Thousands Lag b'Omer Bonfires |
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Israel - It begins right after Passover. Wooden pallets begin to disappear from loading docks and parks and forests are suddenly bereft of broken twigs and branches.
The "thieves" are Israeli schoolchildren, who count the days until the start of Lag b'Omer, which this year begins on Monday night.
While the holiday - a celebration of the day a raging plague stopped, saving the lives of Rabbi Akiva's students - is especially popular in haredi circles, secular and traditional Jews also light bonfires and get a day off from school, making Lag b'Omer a truly national holiday.
The problem with the holiday, say many environmentalists and ordinary citizens, is the amount of pollution generated by hundreds of thousands of bonfires that release soot into the air and make vulnerable people sick. The issue is so acute that emergency rooms around the country prepare not only for burn patients but also for those suffering from respiratory ailments.
Despite the spike in contaminants, neither the government nor environmental groups have done very much to combat the pollution.
"I'd like to pass a law to limit the amount of pollutants but I don't think it would pass the Knesset," Dr. Levana Kordova, scientific director of the Air Monitoring Network at the Ministry of Environmental Protection, said. "A lot of people, and not only the religious, like the holiday and don't want things to change."
Last year, after the environment ministry released hard evidence of the harmful effects of the fires, the Knesset Interior Ministry asked the public to create communal bonfires instead of individual ones, and to ban potentially toxic materials - from plastic bottles to treated wood - from the circle of flame.
The committee also suggested that the Ministry of Education educate students about ways to protect the environment during the holiday, but it seems that the majority of students either don't receive this information or simply ignore it.
So do many parents and teachers, who do not heed the environment ministry's ads, placed in religious and mainstream newspapers, about the dangers of burning plastics, tires, asbestos and other toxic flammables. The ministry does not run an education program.
Kordova said her ministry's air-quality monitoring stations annually detect a huge increase in pollution that lasts for about three hours.
"Much depends on the atmospheric conditions. If it's a hot sharav [heat wave] it's our biggest problem. When there are cooler winds the problem is reduced."
In 2007, a crowded haredi neighborhood in Jerusalem registered a whopping 691 micrograms per cubic meter of particulate matter on Lag b'Omer eve, compared to the usual 60 micrograms on ordinary (non-dust storm) days. That number was 126 micrograms in 2008 - still twice the normal average, but a lot less than the previous year.
Judy Siegel, the Jerusalem Post's longtime health reporter, said studies have shown that hospital visits related to breathing problems jump every Lag b'Omer.
"Particulate matter upsets the respiratory system, so anyone with respiratory conditions such as asthma, pregnant women, the elderly and young children suffer the most. They should stay indoors."
Siegel, who is Orthodox, recalled a Lag b'Omer night in the fervently Orthodox Jerusalem neighborhood of Har Nof, where she lived for almost two decades.
"Har Nof is next to the Jerusalem Forest and every year the fire service came to make sure the bonfires weren't too close to the trees or electric wires. It didn't help. As soon as the fire department left the kids moved closer to the forest. Some of the kids were wild and uneducated about the health dangers, and some of them burned spray containers, plastic bottles. This stuff can cause cancer when burned."
Siegel attributes some of this apparent ignorance to the fact that environmental science is rarely taught in fervently Orthodox schools.
"The rabbis don't know anything about air pollution. [Non-haredi] kids in the youth movements know more, but haredi kids very little."
Some members of the haredi world are working to change this.
Rabbi Yosef Juliard, co-principal of the Torat Habayit network of haredi boys' schools, integrates environmental awareness into his school's religious curriculum.
"On Lag B'Omer eve we have a learning session with fathers and sons, and afterwards we take them to a small bonfire in a controlled area. We use cotton wool and oil to light the fire. Kids aren't permitted to drag anything in. There is dancing and singing and a lot of fun. We've been doing this for 10 years now, first because it's environmentally friendly and second because it's safer for the kids."
Juliard said his environmental curriculum - very uncommon in fervently religious schools - involves every holiday.
"We teach that it is a Jewish imperative to care for our surroundings. This is the way I was raised, and I was shocked when I saw how others celebrate the holiday. We focus more on the spiritual aspects than the physical."
Although Daniel Pedersen, an environmental scientist and engineer, would like to see Lag b'Omer festivities scaled down, he urges Israelis to see the holiday in context.
"Yes, air pollution during Lag b'Omer is very severe. It comes directly from combustion from wood and there are a lot of small particles that go deep inside the lungs. Also, the fires may contain more hazardous materials than dust storms, which also cause pollution."
Still, Pedersen insisted that cars, buses, trucks and factories create far more air pollution than a couple million Israelis toasting marshmallows for a few hours.
"You have to balance your quality of life versus protecting the environment," Pedersen said. "In my opinion it's more dangerous to live next to a busy road than to sit by a bonfire."
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Read Comments (45) — Post Yours »
1
May 07, 2009 at 07:31 PM Anonymous Says:
Get a life. kidai Rab Shimon lismoch uluv bshas hadchak Rab Shimon zechus nothing will happen but since these people don't have emunas tzadikim they want to weaken our emunas tzadikim.
2
May 07, 2009 at 07:29 PM Anonymous Says:
There's No inyan To Light Fire's Its Just Another obscure chasidic minhag with no reliable Sorce But Its A Lot Of Fun For The Kid's (And Some Adults!) So It Spread. . IT SHOULD BE STOP'D Fire Is Dangerous
3
May 07, 2009 at 07:28 PM Anonymous Says:
IT SEEMS TO ME SOME PEOPLE ARE BORED AND THEY DON'T HAVE WHAT TO DO
4
May 07, 2009 at 08:28 PM Anonymous Says:
“ There's No inyan To Light Fire's Its Just Another obscure chasidic minhag with no reliable Sorce But Its A Lot Of Fun For The Kid's (And Some Adults!) So It Spread. . IT SHOULD BE STOP'D Fire Is Dangerous ”
You probably think eating kugel shabbos also has no inyan
5
May 07, 2009 at 08:15 PM Anonymous Says:
If the rabbonim would speak out and make clear that it is ossur to light a bonfire on tu b'shvat and than any such minhag is copying goiyeshe practices, the problem would go away. It would also help if the Hareidi schools and kolels added courses on environmental issues to their ciriculums
6
May 07, 2009 at 08:11 PM Anonymous Says:
if you light a fire using materials that are meant to be burned, like wood and cardboard, it should be fine. rubbers and plastics are the problem, and someone should spread the word that these are not to be used. if done properly, everyone can enjoy a nice and safe medura.
7
May 07, 2009 at 08:09 PM Anonymous Says:
Get a life. kidai Rab Shimon lismoch uluv bshas hadchak Rab Shimon zechus nothing will happen but since these people don't have emunas tzadikim they want to weaken our emunas tzadikim.
8
May 07, 2009 at 07:49 PM Anonymous Says:
There's no inyan of burning toxic items like spray cans and plastic. At the very least the rabbonim should try to put a stop to that. And perhaps the really big hadlokos should be outside of town if so many people are getting sick.
9
May 07, 2009 at 09:00 PM Just asking Says:
“ Get a life. kidai Rab Shimon lismoch uluv bshas hadchak Rab Shimon zechus nothing will happen but since these people don't have emunas tzadikim they want to weaken our emunas tzadikim. ”
Not only do enviornmentalist want to weaken Emunas Tzaddikim everything is against yiddishkeit period. The same goes for Peta. Minhag Kedin and burning chomets also causes fires. Channuka Menorah and Shabbos licht as well . There for should all of that be stopped
10
May 07, 2009 at 10:14 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Not only do enviornmentalist want to weaken Emunas Tzaddikim everything is against yiddishkeit period. The same goes for Peta. Minhag Kedin and burning chomets also causes fires. Channuka Menorah and Shabbos licht as well . There for should all of that be stopped ”
Both in New York and EY, the authorities have imposed restrictions on baking matzoh in improvised bakeries since there have been some terrible fires (e.g. the shul in Monsey that was burned down several years ago). The same should apply to bonfires on lag b'omer.
11
May 07, 2009 at 09:47 PM Anonymous Says:
“ You probably think eating kugel shabbos also has no inyan ”
Actualy kugel Is Brought Down In The RAM"O At The Begining Of hilchos shabos So Im Not As Ignorant As You Think Or As Ignorant As You , Again, Lighting Fire's Has No Reliable MAKOR Its A Wild And Scary Game
12
May 08, 2009 at 04:51 AM sensible yid Says:
How about all the chilonim not driving and not bbq-ing on shabbos that might be easier on the environment
13
May 08, 2009 at 02:46 AM Anonymous Says:
כדאי הוא ר שמעון לסמול עליו בשעת הדחק@
in our cheder there is one communal bonfire, run by the cheder. This is Jerusalem:)
14
May 08, 2009 at 06:33 AM Anonymous Says:
“ If the rabbonim would speak out and make clear that it is ossur to light a bonfire on tu b'shvat and than any such minhag is copying goiyeshe practices, the problem would go away. It would also help if the Hareidi schools and kolels added courses on environmental issues to their ciriculums ”
1) I do not know who lightd bonfires on tu beshvat. The common practice is lag b'omer.
2) You are probably one of those who constantly complain that the rabbonim just assur everything yet now you want them to say that bon fires are ossur. I guess they are only to assur according to your shitos. This means that only your beliefs are important and not halacha.
3) Why should they say that it is ossur when in fact is not.
15
May 08, 2009 at 06:33 AM duvi Says:
“ If the rabbonim would speak out and make clear that it is ossur to light a bonfire on tu b'shvat and than any such minhag is copying goiyeshe practices, the problem would go away. It would also help if the Hareidi schools and kolels added courses on environmental issues to their ciriculums ”
ha tu bshvat?! before you start bashing your fellow jew at least get your basic facts straight like what holiday we are talking about so you dont seem like a complete fool.
16
May 08, 2009 at 05:45 AM shlimiel Says:
“ If the rabbonim would speak out and make clear that it is ossur to light a bonfire on tu b'shvat and than any such minhag is copying goiyeshe practices, the problem would go away. It would also help if the Hareidi schools and kolels added courses on environmental issues to their ciriculums ”
no issur is needed, I think tu beshvat falls on a shabbos.
17
May 08, 2009 at 05:30 AM Jen Says:
Hey everyone,
I saw the article about going green and being more eco friendly which is great. Lots more people are seeing that Mother Nature is in trouble and that we need to change our ways to help out. I think with global warming creeping up on us, I think it is very important that we become more aware of trying to lower our carbon emissions, and try and do right by the planet. I think we can all do our little bit extra to try and help! At home I always shut the computer down rather than putting it to sleep, and always turn off electrics rather than leave them on stand by. These tips may seem small, but if everyone pulled together then I think we could really make a difference to the world. Another hint I have is that I now use e-Cards rather than buying paper cards. Not only are you saving money if you choose a free site, but more importantly, you are helping the environment by saving paper, and therefore less trees need to be chopped down! I have done my research and finally found the best free Environmentally Friendly e-Card site. It is really easy to use, which is great if like me you are not very good with computers! I really like this particular site as there is just so much choice. I know e-Cards are not for everyone but think of the environment it really is a great way to help out and do your bit!
18
May 08, 2009 at 01:39 AM Stop the chillul Hashem now Says:
What is the source for this supposed 'minhag'? It is not brought down in the Gemara or Shulchan Oruch to do so. Since it causes damage to the public as well as individuals, and some kids may be taking fuel that does not belong to them, it should be stopped.
The Chasam Sofer (Teshuvos, Yoreh Deah 233, dibbur hamaschil omnom) questioned the lag baomer celebrations of going to Meron, making it a day of simcha and hadlokoh, and said that he would not take part in such.
19
May 08, 2009 at 06:59 AM Yehuda Says:
I don't really think that R' Shimoen gains anything from these fires. Is there anyone here who thinks he does?
20
May 08, 2009 at 06:45 AM Anonymous Says:
To all fools who quote kdai hu R' Shimoen etc. This is a statement in Gemora which really was never meant that any naarishkeit done in the name of Rabbi Shimoen is safe. Today people freely use this statment including the idea that during the Lebanon war it was safe to go to Meron. When R. Shimoen was in danger he ran away, and didn't say to himself kdai hu R. Shimoen.
21
May 08, 2009 at 12:06 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Actualy kugel Is Brought Down In The RAM"O At The Begining Of hilchos shabos So Im Not As Ignorant As You Think Or As Ignorant As You , Again, Lighting Fire's Has No Reliable MAKOR Its A Wild And Scary Game ”
But the Ramu does not mention overnight kugel that is a chasidishe inyan
22
May 08, 2009 at 07:08 AM Anonymous Says:
“ There's No inyan To Light Fire's Its Just Another obscure chasidic minhag with no reliable Sorce But Its A Lot Of Fun For The Kid's (And Some Adults!) So It Spread. . IT SHOULD BE STOP'D Fire Is Dangerous ”
Fire is dangerous, so it should be BANNED.
Guns are dangerous, so they should be BANNED.
Knives are dangerous, so they should be BANNED.
Eating meat is dangerous (cholesteral & lipids), so it should be banned.
Fish is dangerous (mercury), so it should be BANNED.
Smoking is dangerous, so it should be BANNED.
Walking out at night alone is dangerous, so it should be BANNED.
Drinking on Purim is dangerous, so it should be BANNED.
Fasting is dangerous, so it should be BANNED.
Circumcision is dangerous, so it should be BANNED.
Trees can burn, thus are Dangerous, so they should be BANNED.
Buildings can fall during an eathquake. That is dangerous. Buildings should be BANNED.
Lakes, rivers and seas are Dangerous (drowning), so they should be BANNED.
Pencils can poke eyes out, so they should be BANNED.
Surgery is Dangerous, so it should be BANNED.
Medicines are Dangerous, so they should be BANNED.
Tefillin are Dangerous, (loss of circulation to arm), so they should be BANNED.
============================
Liberals are a Danger to society, so they should be BANNED.
Enviromentalists are Dangerous, so they should be BANNED.
23
May 08, 2009 at 07:23 AM Anonymous Says:
“ To all fools who quote kdai hu R' Shimoen etc. This is a statement in Gemora which really was never meant that any naarishkeit done in the name of Rabbi Shimoen is safe. Today people freely use this statment including the idea that during the Lebanon war it was safe to go to Meron. When R. Shimoen was in danger he ran away, and didn't say to himself kdai hu R. Shimoen. ”
You big lamdan the gemara says ein chovesh matir es atzmo that means he can't get himself out of trouble but others can. Your comment goes to show that its a lack of emunas tzadikim that is driving this
24
May 08, 2009 at 07:29 AM Anonymous Says:
“ What is the source for this supposed 'minhag'? It is not brought down in the Gemara or Shulchan Oruch to do so. Since it causes damage to the public as well as individuals, and some kids may be taking fuel that does not belong to them, it should be stopped.
The Chasam Sofer (Teshuvos, Yoreh Deah 233, dibbur hamaschil omnom) questioned the lag baomer celebrations of going to Meron, making it a day of simcha and hadlokoh, and said that he would not take part in such. ”
I have no problem with the fires. They are once a year, and the environmental issues are quite temporary.
But, I agree with the problem of going to Meron, and other such trips.
To me, they seem to create an aura of going to the holy place for the holiday.
Sort of like Oleh LoRegel.
I "smecks" like it is replacing going to Yerushalayim for the sholos regalim.
a little like a new "relgion" has formed to replace the stuff we can't do.
We can't go to Yerushalayim to bring a korban, so we go to Meron and make a fire.
Or we go to other "newly holy" trips which have become popular.
Whether it is going to your favorite Rebbe's ohel, matzaiva, or whatever you call it, at a set time every year, or at fixed times a few times a year.
Sure, no problem visiting the kever/matzaiva, etc., of your parents or rebbe, noone is denying that is a mitzvah. But making it into a "commandment" level activity, makes it smell like new Torah.
I have seen families go into heavy debt to go to Russia for Rosh Hashana.
I have seen families go into heavy debt to go to the Lubavitcher Rebbe's Ohel on those dates they feel they "MUST" go. ... I mean going to a loan company and getting a loan which puts a lien on their HOME!
Both of those things are fine even wonderful, if one goes when one is in the area, or with "extra" money when one can afford it.
Who takes out loans to visit their mother's or father's kever EVERY YEAR???
But, when these things trips, which "shmeck" of the Islamic trip to Mecca, become a mandatory part of your life, have they not formed a sort of "new religion"?
And, by the way, the most religious Muslims only consider it a "chiyuv" to make the trip once in their life. "Extra" times are only when they can afford it. They would not act financially irresponsible to do it more than that once.
If you are near Meron, fine go to the bonfire there.
But, to travel across the world to do so........
Or... if you make a bonfire in your community for Lag B'Omer, and can do so legally, wonderful. I do it too.
But, if you break the law, and make a chillul Hashem to do it...
or, if you make the fire close to a building with old people or people who told you they have emphysema or some other respiratory problem... and you fell "compelled" to put this fire first.......
Do YOU believe that is what R. Shimon would have wanted?
If you mortgage your home to visit the Rebbe's ohel on your annual trek, do YOU believe that is what the Rebbe would have wanted?
All these things are wonderful and great, and I really do encourage them all.
But, when they have grown into a "chiyuv" in people's eyes, to the point that they go broke to do it, or they put people's safety at risk to do it, that is wrong on multiple fronts.
25
May 08, 2009 at 07:50 AM Anonymous Says:
Reply to #23
It just goes to show you that a statement was once taken out of context and from then on anyone who questions it lacks emunas Tzaddikim.
26
May 08, 2009 at 07:39 AM Anonymous Says:
“ What is the source for this supposed 'minhag'? It is not brought down in the Gemara or Shulchan Oruch to do so. Since it causes damage to the public as well as individuals, and some kids may be taking fuel that does not belong to them, it should be stopped.
The Chasam Sofer (Teshuvos, Yoreh Deah 233, dibbur hamaschil omnom) questioned the lag baomer celebrations of going to Meron, making it a day of simcha and hadlokoh, and said that he would not take part in such. ”
Don't take the heilege Chsam sofer who led the fight against those with lack of emunas tzadikim (reform) & twist his words to match your twisted 2009 logic. He's talking of going to meron because of tzniyus & hullalus issues but in other places of course you make bonfires
27
May 08, 2009 at 07:33 AM Anonymous Says:
“ I don't really think that R' Shimoen gains anything from these fires. Is there anyone here who thinks he does? ”
You probably think lighting a yurtzeit is also a waste you think a neshamah gains cause I lit a candle & beside with your theroy you think hashem NEEDS you to put tefilin no but you want to make a nachas ruach Rab Shimon has a nachas ruach when he looks down & sees yiddshe kinder having kosher fun in his name
28
May 08, 2009 at 08:07 AM Anonymous Says:
“ I have no problem with the fires. They are once a year, and the environmental issues are quite temporary.
But, I agree with the problem of going to Meron, and other such trips.
To me, they seem to create an aura of going to the holy place for the holiday.
Sort of like Oleh LoRegel.
I "smecks" like it is replacing going to Yerushalayim for the sholos regalim.
a little like a new "relgion" has formed to replace the stuff we can't do.
We can't go to Yerushalayim to bring a korban, so we go to Meron and make a fire.
Or we go to other "newly holy" trips which have become popular.
Whether it is going to your favorite Rebbe's ohel, matzaiva, or whatever you call it, at a set time every year, or at fixed times a few times a year.
Sure, no problem visiting the kever/matzaiva, etc., of your parents or rebbe, noone is denying that is a mitzvah. But making it into a "commandment" level activity, makes it smell like new Torah.
I have seen families go into heavy debt to go to Russia for Rosh Hashana.
I have seen families go into heavy debt to go to the Lubavitcher Rebbe's Ohel on those dates they feel they "MUST" go. ... I mean going to a loan company and getting a loan which puts a lien on their HOME!
Both of those things are fine even wonderful, if one goes when one is in the area, or with "extra" money when one can afford it.
Who takes out loans to visit their mother's or father's kever EVERY YEAR???
But, when these things trips, which "shmeck" of the Islamic trip to Mecca, become a mandatory part of your life, have they not formed a sort of "new religion"?
And, by the way, the most religious Muslims only consider it a "chiyuv" to make the trip once in their life. "Extra" times are only when they can afford it. They would not act financially irresponsible to do it more than that once.
If you are near Meron, fine go to the bonfire there.
But, to travel across the world to do so........
Or... if you make a bonfire in your community for Lag B'Omer, and can do so legally, wonderful. I do it too.
But, if you break the law, and make a chillul Hashem to do it...
or, if you make the fire close to a building with old people or people who told you they have emphysema or some other respiratory problem... and you fell "compelled" to put this fire first.......
Do YOU believe that is what R. Shimon would have wanted?
If you mortgage your home to visit the Rebbe's ohel on your annual trek, do YOU believe that is what the Rebbe would have wanted?
All these things are wonderful and great, and I really do encourage them all.
But, when they have grown into a "chiyuv" in people's eyes, to the point that they go broke to do it, or they put people's safety at risk to do it, that is wrong on multiple fronts. ”
I agree.
And also, if going to Meron, or to any of those "Treks" you mention, means having to be subjected to people dressed in appropriately, or behaving inappropriately, then it is better to stay home completely.
29
May 08, 2009 at 08:05 AM yossi Says:
Give in to the enviromental scientists then next will be NOT to burn the Chometz Erev Pesach because its polluting our country......
30
May 08, 2009 at 08:01 AM Anonymous Says:
“ I have no problem with the fires. They are once a year, and the environmental issues are quite temporary.
But, I agree with the problem of going to Meron, and other such trips.
To me, they seem to create an aura of going to the holy place for the holiday.
Sort of like Oleh LoRegel.
I "smecks" like it is replacing going to Yerushalayim for the sholos regalim.
a little like a new "relgion" has formed to replace the stuff we can't do.
We can't go to Yerushalayim to bring a korban, so we go to Meron and make a fire.
Or we go to other "newly holy" trips which have become popular.
Whether it is going to your favorite Rebbe's ohel, matzaiva, or whatever you call it, at a set time every year, or at fixed times a few times a year.
Sure, no problem visiting the kever/matzaiva, etc., of your parents or rebbe, noone is denying that is a mitzvah. But making it into a "commandment" level activity, makes it smell like new Torah.
I have seen families go into heavy debt to go to Russia for Rosh Hashana.
I have seen families go into heavy debt to go to the Lubavitcher Rebbe's Ohel on those dates they feel they "MUST" go. ... I mean going to a loan company and getting a loan which puts a lien on their HOME!
Both of those things are fine even wonderful, if one goes when one is in the area, or with "extra" money when one can afford it.
Who takes out loans to visit their mother's or father's kever EVERY YEAR???
But, when these things trips, which "shmeck" of the Islamic trip to Mecca, become a mandatory part of your life, have they not formed a sort of "new religion"?
And, by the way, the most religious Muslims only consider it a "chiyuv" to make the trip once in their life. "Extra" times are only when they can afford it. They would not act financially irresponsible to do it more than that once.
If you are near Meron, fine go to the bonfire there.
But, to travel across the world to do so........
Or... if you make a bonfire in your community for Lag B'Omer, and can do so legally, wonderful. I do it too.
But, if you break the law, and make a chillul Hashem to do it...
or, if you make the fire close to a building with old people or people who told you they have emphysema or some other respiratory problem... and you fell "compelled" to put this fire first.......
Do YOU believe that is what R. Shimon would have wanted?
If you mortgage your home to visit the Rebbe's ohel on your annual trek, do YOU believe that is what the Rebbe would have wanted?
All these things are wonderful and great, and I really do encourage them all.
But, when they have grown into a "chiyuv" in people's eyes, to the point that they go broke to do it, or they put people's safety at risk to do it, that is wrong on multiple fronts. ”
You are soooo right.
My father, A"H used to say to my mother:
We must keep in mind the Torah's Yomim Tovim, and keep them on a higher madraiga than Chanukah. We can't have a beautiful menorah for Chanuka, and a sukkah which is barely standing, and has no room to sit and eat in comfort.
We can't spend a ton of money for Chanuka, and be cheap on Sukkos, Pesach and Shavuos. He made sure my mother, who always tried to save money on herself, bought at least one brand new "better" dress/suit, shoes, teechel, etc., for every Yom Tov.
Though we kids got gifts on Chanika, we got just as many on every Yom Tov, as well as brand new outfits every year for Pesach and Rosh Hashana
My father used to make sure we knew that the Yomin Noraim, and the Shalosh ReGulim were primary. Then comes Pirim and Chanika.
Tu b'Shevat, Lag B'Omer, Rebb'e Yahrtzeit and similar, were celebrated/observed, but on a much "lighter" level.
He used to say, "Be careful to not elevate Lag B'Omer to the level of a Yom Tov, or the Rebbe's Seidas Hoidua to the level of a Pesach Seder."
Also, he had a minhag, that for every dollar he spent specially for Yom Tov, he gave matching tzedaka money to aniyim. In fact, he did this before spending the money on the family. It was sort of the other way. We matched what he spent on aniyim.
If I had suggested getting on a plane and flying to Meron, he would have said, "R. Shimon would much rather you gave the money to a poor person here, and built a bonfire in the neighborhood. "
31
May 08, 2009 at 08:00 AM Anonymous Says:
reply to 27
You're right. From now on we're going to do this for every tzaddik's yahrzeit.
32
May 08, 2009 at 09:07 AM Anonymous Says:
For all of you saying there are no environmental problems with the bon fires, a few weeks ago I went for a walk to get some exercize. Some people had their wood burning stoves going and the fumes/smoke were a huge irritant to my lungs and I ended my walk early. Bon fires make a lot more smoke. Imagine how bad it might be for people with asthma or respiratory or cardiac problems.
Everyone who says "I want my bonfire and no one is going to tell me what to do" seems rather selfish. If there was a way you could just pollute your own quota of air, fine, but we all have to share the same air -- it's not yours to pollute.
33
May 08, 2009 at 09:23 AM Anonymous Says:
“ For all of you saying there are no environmental problems with the bon fires, a few weeks ago I went for a walk to get some exercize. Some people had their wood burning stoves going and the fumes/smoke were a huge irritant to my lungs and I ended my walk early. Bon fires make a lot more smoke. Imagine how bad it might be for people with asthma or respiratory or cardiac problems.
Everyone who says "I want my bonfire and no one is going to tell me what to do" seems rather selfish. If there was a way you could just pollute your own quota of air, fine, but we all have to share the same air -- it's not yours to pollute. ”
AH... I have a great idea.
Instead of burning trees and pallets and old woood,
We could take all the Liberals and Environmentalists and ........
Oy! That's gross.... never mind. I have one sick mind; don't I?
34
May 08, 2009 at 10:22 AM Anonymous Says:
“ What is the source for this supposed 'minhag'? It is not brought down in the Gemara or Shulchan Oruch to do so. Since it causes damage to the public as well as individuals, and some kids may be taking fuel that does not belong to them, it should be stopped.
The Chasam Sofer (Teshuvos, Yoreh Deah 233, dibbur hamaschil omnom) questioned the lag baomer celebrations of going to Meron, making it a day of simcha and hadlokoh, and said that he would not take part in such. ”
One of the earliest sources for the minhag to go to Meron (the burial place of R' Shimon bar Yochai) on Lag Ba'omer and light a fire in the zchus of R' Shimon bar Yochai is from R' Chaim Vittal in the name of the Ari Hakodosh and Rabbeinu Ovadiah M'Bartenurah. Many have the minhag to bring their sons who are three years old to have the first haircut at Meron and thereby perform the mitzvah of leaving the Peios of the head uncut. This minhag is mentioned by R' Chaim Vittal as "an age old minhag" at the time of the Arizal. Sefer Gal Peninim
35
May 08, 2009 at 10:19 AM Chasam Sofer's teshuvoh re Meron, bonfires............. Says:
“ Don't take the heilege Chsam sofer who led the fight against those with lack of emunas tzadikim (reform) & twist his words to match your twisted 2009 logic. He's talking of going to meron because of tzniyus & hullalus issues but in other places of course you make bonfires ”
Obviously you didn't learn the teshuvoh of the heilige Chasam Soifer ztvk"l zy"a on the inyan. Please don't put your words in his holy mouth. He explains in the teshuvoh why he questions it and would not participate. It is not for the reasons you mention, due to tzniyus and hollelus issues, but for other reasons. If he was here today, maybe he would add those reasons as well, but that is not the basis of what he writes in the teshuvoh (mareh mokom in comment chai (#18).
36
May 08, 2009 at 09:41 AM Anonymous Says:
“ I have no problem with the fires. They are once a year, and the environmental issues are quite temporary.
But, I agree with the problem of going to Meron, and other such trips.
To me, they seem to create an aura of going to the holy place for the holiday.
Sort of like Oleh LoRegel.
I "smecks" like it is replacing going to Yerushalayim for the sholos regalim.
a little like a new "relgion" has formed to replace the stuff we can't do.
We can't go to Yerushalayim to bring a korban, so we go to Meron and make a fire.
Or we go to other "newly holy" trips which have become popular.
Whether it is going to your favorite Rebbe's ohel, matzaiva, or whatever you call it, at a set time every year, or at fixed times a few times a year.
Sure, no problem visiting the kever/matzaiva, etc., of your parents or rebbe, noone is denying that is a mitzvah. But making it into a "commandment" level activity, makes it smell like new Torah.
I have seen families go into heavy debt to go to Russia for Rosh Hashana.
I have seen families go into heavy debt to go to the Lubavitcher Rebbe's Ohel on those dates they feel they "MUST" go. ... I mean going to a loan company and getting a loan which puts a lien on their HOME!
Both of those things are fine even wonderful, if one goes when one is in the area, or with "extra" money when one can afford it.
Who takes out loans to visit their mother's or father's kever EVERY YEAR???
But, when these things trips, which "shmeck" of the Islamic trip to Mecca, become a mandatory part of your life, have they not formed a sort of "new religion"?
And, by the way, the most religious Muslims only consider it a "chiyuv" to make the trip once in their life. "Extra" times are only when they can afford it. They would not act financially irresponsible to do it more than that once.
If you are near Meron, fine go to the bonfire there.
But, to travel across the world to do so........
Or... if you make a bonfire in your community for Lag B'Omer, and can do so legally, wonderful. I do it too.
But, if you break the law, and make a chillul Hashem to do it...
or, if you make the fire close to a building with old people or people who told you they have emphysema or some other respiratory problem... and you fell "compelled" to put this fire first.......
Do YOU believe that is what R. Shimon would have wanted?
If you mortgage your home to visit the Rebbe's ohel on your annual trek, do YOU believe that is what the Rebbe would have wanted?
All these things are wonderful and great, and I really do encourage them all.
But, when they have grown into a "chiyuv" in people's eyes, to the point that they go broke to do it, or they put people's safety at risk to do it, that is wrong on multiple fronts. ”
YES! I have a good friend, a young married man with a wonderful wife and 3 kids. They are barely paying their mortgage, and are really messed up financially, in real danger of losing their home.
In fact, they are trying to manipulate a "short sale" and sell the house for half price to a relative to reduce their monthly payment. They know this is illlegal and wrong, but they are scared of losing thier home.
But, he still went to Uman this past Rosh HaShanah!!!!
Not only did he go with money he did not have, puting it all on credit, but he left his wife and kids behind to suffer through the Holy Days of Rosh Hashana without their Tatty and husband.
There is no way, to my belief, that Rav Nachman would have approved of that.
The same goes for my Chabad friends. Some are also strapped really bad, and still put trips to the Rebbe's Ohel on credit cards. They go twice a year or more. And, they can't afford it.
There is no way, to my belief, that the Lubavitcher Rebbe would have approved of that.
All the while, these friends of mine spend "MAYBE" $200 per year on tzedaka, and ask for discounts/scholarships on schar limud.
You are right. Maybe these trips ARE some new thing which needs to be stopped.
37
May 08, 2009 at 10:54 AM PMO Says:
All the tree-hugging liberals need to get a life.
However, for the sane among us, there is some truth in this. If people were going around EY collecting fallen branches and even fallen trees there would not be such a problem. I have been to these kinds of bonfires in the past and people with no common sense do all kinds of stupid things. Burning tires and aerosols is dangerous and in no way "enhances" the experience for anyone but the drunk idiot doing it.
Build your bonfires as big and as high as you want...they sure are beautiful.... but why throw plastics and dangerous chemicals into it? That seems to me where the common sense breaks down. Those who just object to anything "burning" are just being stupid. There is nothing wrong with maintaining a level of safety and good healthy common sense in doing these things.
As for the tree huggers... nature burns hundreds of thousands of trees here in FL every couple of years.... a thousand more across the globe is not the big problem you communist liberals would like us to believe it is.
38
May 08, 2009 at 03:01 PM Milhouse Says:
“ One of the earliest sources for the minhag to go to Meron (the burial place of R' Shimon bar Yochai) on Lag Ba'omer and light a fire in the zchus of R' Shimon bar Yochai is from R' Chaim Vittal in the name of the Ari Hakodosh and Rabbeinu Ovadiah M'Bartenurah. Many have the minhag to bring their sons who are three years old to have the first haircut at Meron and thereby perform the mitzvah of leaving the Peios of the head uncut. This minhag is mentioned by R' Chaim Vittal as "an age old minhag" at the time of the Arizal. Sefer Gal Peninim ”
The Bartinura does not mention RASHBI or Lag B'omer. Kever RASHBI in Meron was not known in his days; it was revealed by the AriZal. The Bartinura's letter that has been printed in various places has been altered, either by ignorant editors or by deliberate charlatans. He writes about going to kever SHMUEL HANAVI, on the 28th of Iyar, not to Rashbi on the 18th.
39
May 08, 2009 at 02:57 PM Milhouse Says:
“ I have no problem with the fires. They are once a year, and the environmental issues are quite temporary.
But, I agree with the problem of going to Meron, and other such trips.
To me, they seem to create an aura of going to the holy place for the holiday.
Sort of like Oleh LoRegel.
I "smecks" like it is replacing going to Yerushalayim for the sholos regalim.
a little like a new "relgion" has formed to replace the stuff we can't do.
We can't go to Yerushalayim to bring a korban, so we go to Meron and make a fire.
Or we go to other "newly holy" trips which have become popular.
Whether it is going to your favorite Rebbe's ohel, matzaiva, or whatever you call it, at a set time every year, or at fixed times a few times a year.
Sure, no problem visiting the kever/matzaiva, etc., of your parents or rebbe, noone is denying that is a mitzvah. But making it into a "commandment" level activity, makes it smell like new Torah.
I have seen families go into heavy debt to go to Russia for Rosh Hashana.
I have seen families go into heavy debt to go to the Lubavitcher Rebbe's Ohel on those dates they feel they "MUST" go. ... I mean going to a loan company and getting a loan which puts a lien on their HOME!
Both of those things are fine even wonderful, if one goes when one is in the area, or with "extra" money when one can afford it.
Who takes out loans to visit their mother's or father's kever EVERY YEAR???
But, when these things trips, which "shmeck" of the Islamic trip to Mecca, become a mandatory part of your life, have they not formed a sort of "new religion"?
And, by the way, the most religious Muslims only consider it a "chiyuv" to make the trip once in their life. "Extra" times are only when they can afford it. They would not act financially irresponsible to do it more than that once.
If you are near Meron, fine go to the bonfire there.
But, to travel across the world to do so........
Or... if you make a bonfire in your community for Lag B'Omer, and can do so legally, wonderful. I do it too.
But, if you break the law, and make a chillul Hashem to do it...
or, if you make the fire close to a building with old people or people who told you they have emphysema or some other respiratory problem... and you fell "compelled" to put this fire first.......
Do YOU believe that is what R. Shimon would have wanted?
If you mortgage your home to visit the Rebbe's ohel on your annual trek, do YOU believe that is what the Rebbe would have wanted?
All these things are wonderful and great, and I really do encourage them all.
But, when they have grown into a "chiyuv" in people's eyes, to the point that they go broke to do it, or they put people's safety at risk to do it, that is wrong on multiple fronts. ”
If you would rant less and learn more you'd be surprised to learn that as a matter of fact, visiting R Shim'on IS a replacement for aliyah leregel. שלש פעמים יראה כל זכורך את פני האדון ה׳. מאן פני האדון? דא רשב״י. That is why a person should visit his rebbe on yomtov.
40
May 08, 2009 at 03:03 PM Milhouse Says:
“ YES! I have a good friend, a young married man with a wonderful wife and 3 kids. They are barely paying their mortgage, and are really messed up financially, in real danger of losing their home.
In fact, they are trying to manipulate a "short sale" and sell the house for half price to a relative to reduce their monthly payment. They know this is illlegal and wrong, but they are scared of losing thier home.
But, he still went to Uman this past Rosh HaShanah!!!!
Not only did he go with money he did not have, puting it all on credit, but he left his wife and kids behind to suffer through the Holy Days of Rosh Hashana without their Tatty and husband.
There is no way, to my belief, that Rav Nachman would have approved of that.
The same goes for my Chabad friends. Some are also strapped really bad, and still put trips to the Rebbe's Ohel on credit cards. They go twice a year or more. And, they can't afford it.
There is no way, to my belief, that the Lubavitcher Rebbe would have approved of that.
All the while, these friends of mine spend "MAYBE" $200 per year on tzedaka, and ask for discounts/scholarships on schar limud.
You are right. Maybe these trips ARE some new thing which needs to be stopped. ”
You sound like someone who says he can't afford to go on job interviews, or to collect a welfare check, or to collect tzedokoh! If you're in financial trouble, going to a rebbe for help, to ask him to daven for you, is how you get OUT of the hole!
41
May 08, 2009 at 04:37 PM Satmar Man Says:
“ If you would rant less and learn more you'd be surprised to learn that as a matter of fact, visiting R Shim'on IS a replacement for aliyah leregel. שלש פעמים יראה כל זכורך את פני האדון ה׳. מאן פני האדון? דא רשב״י. That is why a person should visit his rebbe on yomtov. ”
He did not say not to go.
He said not to go on borrowed money!
He is right.
Aliyah Leregel is a chiyuv. This is not.
It is a great inyan to cut your son's hair that first time in Meron. But... not to fly there from Brooklyn!
42
May 08, 2009 at 04:32 PM Satmar Man Says:
“ You sound like someone who says he can't afford to go on job interviews, or to collect a welfare check, or to collect tzedokoh! If you're in financial trouble, going to a rebbe for help, to ask him to daven for you, is how you get OUT of the hole! ”
“ You sound like someone who says he can't afford to go on job interviews, or to collect a welfare check, or to collect tzedokoh! If you're in financial trouble, going to a rebbe for help, to ask him to daven for you, is how you get OUT of the hole!”
If you're in financial trouble..... GET A JOB.
If that is not enough..... GET ANOTHER JOB.
Work two jobs. Cut your spending. Give more tzedaka.
Those are the keys to financial stability.
The money you have is Hashem's if you got it through honest work. He is entrusting it in your hands.
Don't waste His money on foolish things.
Don't believe con men. (anyone offering you something too good to be true)
DO NOT take charity or public money. Be self supporting, even if it means living a lower living style.
Eat rice and beans with money Hashem Yisburach entrusted to you, rather than buy steak with Food Stamps.
If you are capable of working, but are taking Welfare and/or Food Stamps by lying, that money is NOT money Hashem entrusted to you; it is money YOU STOLE.
Live honestly, work hard, give tzedaka even when you think you can't afford it, then Hashem will entrust you with more.
also.... go to your rebbe for a bracha.... but NOT as a replacement for the above.
43
May 09, 2009 at 07:46 PM Anonymous Says:
gevald I think chulent is worse off to the enviroment!! I hope the enviromentolists don't GET WIND OF THE CHULENT issues.
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May 09, 2009 at 07:26 AM ZR Says:
“ YES! I have a good friend, a young married man with a wonderful wife and 3 kids. They are barely paying their mortgage, and are really messed up financially, in real danger of losing their home.
In fact, they are trying to manipulate a "short sale" and sell the house for half price to a relative to reduce their monthly payment. They know this is illlegal and wrong, but they are scared of losing thier home.
But, he still went to Uman this past Rosh HaShanah!!!!
Not only did he go with money he did not have, puting it all on credit, but he left his wife and kids behind to suffer through the Holy Days of Rosh Hashana without their Tatty and husband.
There is no way, to my belief, that Rav Nachman would have approved of that.
The same goes for my Chabad friends. Some are also strapped really bad, and still put trips to the Rebbe's Ohel on credit cards. They go twice a year or more. And, they can't afford it.
There is no way, to my belief, that the Lubavitcher Rebbe would have approved of that.
All the while, these friends of mine spend "MAYBE" $200 per year on tzedaka, and ask for discounts/scholarships on schar limud.
You are right. Maybe these trips ARE some new thing which needs to be stopped. ”
Why is it so important for you to analyse what other Yidden do with their money? If people want to go visit their Rebbe what do you have against that. This is nothing new. Chasidim have been going to their Rebbe, sometimes at great cost, since the times of the Baal Shem Tov and throughout the history of Chasisim
IOW you want to oppose what Chassidim have done for the last 250 years? Don’t you guys have better things to worry about?
Let everyone have their own derech in peace.
You are not G-d's policemen.
45
May 10, 2009 at 12:51 AM Milhouse Says:
“ He did not say not to go.
He said not to go on borrowed money!
He is right.
Aliyah Leregel is a chiyuv. This is not.
It is a great inyan to cut your son's hair that first time in Meron. But... not to fly there from Brooklyn! ”
What are you on about? Did you even read the comment? Or did you just guess what it said? He complained that going to a rebbe has become a ritual to replace aliyah leregel, and he thinks that's a "new religion". And that is pure amhoratzus, as I pointed out.