New York – The Reform and Conservative Movements are disappearing, Yeshiva University Chancellor Rabbi Norman Lamm said over the weekend.
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“With a heavy heart we will soon say kaddish on the Reform and Conservative Movements,” said Lamm, head of the Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary, in an interview with The Jerusalem Post.
“The Conservatives are in a mood of despondency and pessimism. They are closing schools and in general shrinking,” he said.
“The Reform Movement may show a rise, because if you add goyim to Jews then you will do OK,” added Lamm, referring to the Reform Movement’s policy, starting in 1983, of recognizing patrilineal descent.
The National Jewish Population Survey of 2001 found that of the 46 percent of US Jewish households belonging to a synagogue, 33% were affiliated with a Conservative synagogue, a 10% fall from the 1990 survey. In contrast, the Reform Movement was up from 35% to 38% and Orthodox Jews rose from 16% to 22%. Two percent were affiliated with the Reconstructionist Movement and 5% with “other types” of synagogues.
Sociologists familiar with US Jewry believe that similar trends continue.
“Reform is out of the picture, because they never got into the picture, and the Conservatives are getting out of the picture,” Lamm said.
“The future of American Jewry is in the hands of haredim and the modern Orthodox. We have to find ways of working together.”
He supports outreach to Reform and Conservative Jews, “but not by watering down what we believe and not by demonizing them either.”
Lamm, born in Brooklyn in 1927, was appointed president of YU in 1976 and managed to save the flagship institute of American Modern Orthodoxy from financial demise.
A disciple of Rabbi Yosef B. Soloveitchik, Lamm is considered a representative of “centrist” Modern Orthodoxy, which positions itself between the more “left-wing” elements of Orthodoxy such as Yeshivat Chovevei Torah and the more “right-wing” haredim voices of American Orthodoxy.
He is in Israel to receive an honorary doctorate from Bar-Ilan University on Tuesday.
The same day, Lamm will take part in a panel at the university on “The Religious Experience of Social Action” with a Catholic priest and a Suffi religious leader.
Regarding Pope Benedict XVI’s visit in Israel, Lamm said he doubted much would come out of it.
“The pope is an intellectual and as such there is a subtext to his behavior,” he said. “His interests are primarily theological. Nothing of great consequence could come of the visit. He is not that kind of person.”
Lamm said the pope’s emphasis on intellectual matters and his lack of interest in political issues led to an imbroglio with Jewish leadership.
Last January the pope reinstated several rebel bishops who had been banned from the Church for their conservative opinions. One of the bishops was Richard Williamson, a known Holocaust denier.
“That [his emphasis on intellectuality] is how he got in trouble lifting the herem on that bishop,” Lamm said.
He also said he opposed transferring control over Church properties in Israel to the Vatican.
“Does a shul in Rome have extraterritorial rights? Why should a church in Israel?” Lamm asked.
Based on principles that he says he learned from Soleveitchik, interfaith dialogue aimed at improving life and advancing peace is important, “as long as there is not an exchange of dogmas.”
Lamm expressed dissatisfaction with the fact that historically, Orthodox Jews have refrained from interfaith dialogue with the Church.
“The people who have normally been speaking on behalf of Jewry have been secular and are not concerned with the Jewish religious point of view. It was a mistake for religious Jews to shy away. As a result, the ADL and the American Jewish Committee, who don’t always have believing Jews on their staff, have dominated.
“It is important not to paint the pope as a demon. He has a great deal of power and influence, and it is important to have a friend. But he should know that we are not for sale.”
Regarding the ordination of female rabbis, Lamm said his opposition was “social, not religious.”
“Change has to come to religion when feasible, but it should not be rushed. Women have just come into their own from an educational perspective. I would prefer not to have this innovation right now. It is simply too early. What will happen later… I am not a prophet.”
Regarding homosexuality among Orthodox Jewish men, Lamm said he drew a distinction between those who “kept it to themselves” and those who “proselytized.”
“Everyone should be made to feel comfortable,” he said. “I would never exclude a person because his wife does not cover hair or because he does not adhere to the laws of Shabbat or because he is a homosexual.
“But I am opposed to saying publicly that homosexuals are welcome or accepting people who are openly gay and who campaign for a gay lifestyle, just as I would oppose someone who openly campaigns to desecrate Shabbat or to speak slanderously.
Dr. Lamm…please look at the size of Lakewood and Kiryas Yoel and tell me where the Modern Orthodox world is. The men’s graduating class at Yeshiva University is around 300 students annually, and Dr. Joel is making it even worse. Lakewood alone has 13,000 children in its schools. Dr. Lamm, you are a lovely man (yes we have met) but you lost. Now please go give another award to Mrs. Sadat (as you did years ago), or perhaps this time to Mrs. Arafat.
Ok Mr. Lamm, As you stated judaism will survive because of the orthodox, correct.
There is One Minor point, you state RE: homosexual’s,”Everyone should be made to feel comfortable,” well, it seems that the torah strongly disagrees with you on 2 counts.
1. The torah abhors homosexuality
2. since when do we have to make a sinner feel comfortable, on the contrary, Read the parsha of a metzorah.
Orthodoxy will indeed keep Judaism alive but not through making concessions, for that reflects the attitude of the rapidly diminishing conservative. Rather by living in strict accordance with the torah.
The reform movement is dying, only because the “centrist moder orthodox” have begun to incorporate the reform values, allowing those that previously called themselves reform to now call themselves orthodox. Rabbi Lamm has greatly distorted the basic principals of Rabbi Soloveichik and Yeshiva University. Rabbi Soloveichik believed that you can incorporate modern knowledge and still remain frum. It appears that the Rabbonim opposed were correct when they said that doing so would harm the core values and beliefs of authentic yiddishkeit.
I believe that the Hasidim are what will save the Jewish population, as it is only they that are making the progress. Even the Yeshivish have slowly begun to become irrelevant. Their focus on hasmada and learning and disconnect from the real world, have left them unable to properly function in today’s society. Its just a matter of time before the OU and the Aguda fill their ranks with Chasidish Rabbanim. The OU and Aguda have both shifted to the right over the years and will continue to do so. I believe that the vision of R’ Yoel Teitelbaum is coming to fruition.
I do not understand why this is news. This has been going on for a long time.
Saying kaddish for the reform movement? The movement is strong. Whether they are jewish is an entirely different question.
“The people who have normally been speaking on behalf of Jewry have been secular and are not concerned with the Jewish religious point of view. It was a mistake for religious Jews to shy away. As a result, the ADL and the American Jewish Committee, who don’t always have believing Jews on their staff, have dominated.”
In other words, Lamm should be the one speaking.
If that is the case, then “Regarding the ordination of female rabbis, Lamm said his opposition was social, not religious.”
I will pass on Lamm as the spokesman. He has tried to be the one for years and has failed. Now go away.
So according to Rabbi Dr. Lamm if a woman keeps her hair uncovered in public or someone is mechalel shabbos in public it’s OK, but if you are a homosexual then you better stay in the closet. Sounds like blatant homophobia from the esteemed enlightened Dr. By the way, nice of the good Dr. to finally acknowledge the Haredim’s contribution to Jewish continuity as opposed to writing us off as “cavemen”!
What he doesn’t say is that modern yeshivish shuls and day schools are wiping the floor with these poorly organized and decrepit hareidi yeshivot and batai medrahsim that crank out dysfucntional boys and girls who cannot function in society. (for example, see Rav Tendlers characterization of those misguided bobover bochurim and the shechita incident which could force the Bobov to leave Monsey).
There is no need to compromise on torah values and conemporary knowledge and participation in the community with a good job and family life. The Dark Ages are over and the haredei don’t seem to have gotten the messae. The modern yeshivish movement is the future of yiddeshkeit and EY>
Nice to hear that 13,000 children are enrolled in Lakewood schools, but the issue of the thousands of Litvish girls in the New York area, who are shidduch-less and miserable, has never been properly addressed. At least, in the Modern Orthodox world, the singles can meet on their own and are not dependent on back room money-deals to get married.
The Jewish world is always in a state of flux. What is common today in style will not be so tomorrow. The Torah is eternal, but Jewish “lifestyles” change. The Chareidi lifestyle is not going to last. It is simply impossible to sustain a subculture on welfare handouts.
it seems as though r. lamm expends a lot of time and effort to be thoroughly politically correct.
“At least, in the Modern Orthodox world, the singles can meet on their own and are not dependent on back room money-deals to get married”
Huh? There are so many modern orthodox who are still single over the age of 35. Arranged marriages do seem to make plenty of sense, as the alternative is that many singles stay single for too long, and those who are still single at 40 are unlikely to ever get married.
The problem with modernishe yiddin in America is according to their hashkafa, they don’t belong here, but only in Eretz Yisroel. So their whole life in America is a contradiction. They teach the kids the holiness of Eretz Yisroel and the Tzioni belief that they must live there, yet they stay here living in comfort in the rich suburbs. They are living a lie.
Why can’t the all join the chariedim and feel better that they are part of the group that grows, instead of complaining that the group they are in is falling apart?
I have a theory and mr lamm proves it.
Any one who’s title is Rabbi Dr, is usually a rabbi who needs a doctor.
#5 You write “n the Modern Orthodox world, the singles can meet on their own” Right just look at the west side for the fruits of that system!
Nothing like good old Norman Lamm to rile the troops. He just helped the Conservative and Deformed with fundraising efforts. All the need to do is run this add and bam they will raised money for themseves.
Also how does he equate a woman not wearing a sheitel (I believe his beloved Rav’s wife did not wear one) and homosexuality? No way will I send my kids to YU with a guys like these.
Dr. Lamm is a good man who can read the writing on the wall. His advice to all Torah Jews to WORK TOGETHER is repeating the renowned words of pirkei avos.
Rabbi Lamm is 100% correct in his assessment of the Reform and Conservative movements. Having been involved with the Conservative education system for a generation, I can see the writing on the wall. In 25 years, you will have a small core of virtuallly Orthodox “conservatives”, who represent the few Schecter studenta and JTS alumni, where religion caught on. The rest will ultimately vanish. The Reform movement will temporarily witness a rise in membership, as dropouts from the other groups drift to the left.
There is a problem with the term “modern Orthodoxy”. If by Modern Orthodox, you mean someone who eats fish in a tref restaurant, rides the elevator (not the Shabbos variety), carries his keys in NYC, but attends an Orthodox synagogue when he does go to shul, my friend, that “modern Orthodoxy” is neither Modern, nor Orthodox. If we are referring to the guys (and girls) who grow up carrying a dual program through college (and beyond) who become our prefessionals and white collar workers who attend (or give) a daf yomi, before they go to work (or after). Or, the medical resident, junior accountant, apprentice engineer, etc., who is not ashamed to wear a yarmulka on the job (and YU is producing many of them); then Rabbi Lamm is again, correct.
The posters who rederred to Rabbi Lamm as Mr., are beneath contempt. While I may not agree with everything the typical Charedi Rov stands for, and I don’t always agree with Rabbi Lamm, either, they both deserve a measure of respect.
very logical, if someone chooses to disregard any of the 613 as long as he doesnt flaunt it its ok. nu, thats the peiros of ‘torah umadah’
#6 ..please, what you are saying is also not original. this has been said by all ani torah movements thruout the ages. ‘the torah is for the dark ages.. we are enlightened etc’ so was reform started , conseveative, christianity and so will be the MO..and quite a few are on their way.so please dont repeat whats not your owmn
#5 the keudushas am yiroel will hold only our way…and lets not get into specifics…the holy tzaddikkim have gone our way with reason vhamskilyovin..so mr MO..lets not get into specific of hoe many mitzvahs are being mezalzel in your crowd..mixed swimm for starters…
Why all the hate? The MO have been far more successful at things like kiruv than any of us have (one could argue that lubavitch has done equally well). The MO have built themselves by lifting yidden out of the phony conservative and reform groups. Why do we not celebrate that? A boy who comes from a non-frum home who decides to enter a kollel of ANY “brand” of orthodoxy is a good thing… and it *IS* a big part of our future. How many kids jumped on the derech through MO groups like NCSY? The numbers don’t lie.
I know, from experience, that it is very difficult to see the forest through the trees when you are living in Brooklyn. Take a step out and realize that the rest of the frum world in America does not look like Boro Park (for better or worse).
Since moving to FL, I have seen things that I never realized possible. I always believed that to some degree “secular” yidden were no better than goyim and, in general, should be avoided. I know that was the general feeling of nearly every person I knew.
Shortly before moving to FL I met a group of Lubavitchers and a couple of other Rebbaim from Chofetz Chaim out in Suffolk County who were devoting themselves to bringing yidden back. I could not believe the level of success. People who knew almost nothing of yiddishkeit beyond “we fast on yom kippur” were showing up to these tiny shuls in droves. I heard countless stories where little by little, step by step people started leaving their cars at home on shabbos and walking (sometimes miles) to daven on shabbos morning… they began putting on tefillin every morning… they started to kasher kitchens… they began enrolling their children in MO yeshivos.
I remember spending a shabbos in East Northport and hearing that while the men were headed to the shul for mincha on Shabbos, Rebbitzen Bausk would host a houseful of women who again would walk from near and far. While they were all at different levels in their journey back to a Torah life, they all showed up. I remember walking with Rav Bausk back to his home to make havdolloh and there was a buzz in the house that is rarely seen anymore. People were excited about even the mitzvos that we regard as “routine”. Bit by bit they were walking down the path of a Torah life. I actually know a few of the children who came from these homes and they are all ehrliche yidden.
I moved to FL partly in search of a more “mixed” community… and I found it. In my neighborhood we have all sorts… from “modern” to “ultra”, and while I guess I fall into the second category, I am amazed by and respectful of the first as most of us are. I have since been actively involved behind the scenes in all sorts of kiruv projects and have watched yidden grab hold with ahavas H” and ahavas Torah that is 100% genuine. While some will say that modern orthodoxy makes “compromises”, I don’t see it. The general philosophy is to accept every yid who wants to start on the path to a Torah life…. to give them a comfortable starting point and help them… to be there when they stumble… and to challenge them along the way. In my experience, it has never been about compromising on halochos.
So before anyone starts knocking the MO movement, realize that outside of NY, they make up most of the orthodox community. Many of these people have come from lives that were void of Torah and now embrace it 100%. Their children now go on to yeshivos all over the country and start a new line of frum yidden. This is something to celebrate…. not critcize.
#6 …nebech your sinas for ehrliche yidden, dysfunctional in society, this is mamesh what the talmud states ‘gedoleh sinahs am huaretz .. yoser misinas akum es yisroel’. yes, es stecht you your eyes that there are b’h 100’s of 1000’s yidden who observe the torah bekedushe like our holy forbeares , the bais haleivi, chsam sofer, reb akivah eiger not ,lehavdil ,moshe mendelshon, dessauer s’rey and the likes who share your view of torah with mishmash of kedusha and tumeh
the whole pshetel and comments are kefirah ..judaism (the real one ,which observes written and oral), not the ‘torah umaddah brand will survive because of the havtacha ‘ki lo sishukach mepi zaro’ not because of what satistics, lamm, anti chreidy comentators think or say
folks this isnt a fight about shidduchim or neighborhoods, its a issue of derech.
he has his and not all yu attendees from staff to talmidim are with him some are better and some are worse.
the same can be said for lakewood its not automatic that you are a kotler. even a kotler is not a kotler there are so many of them.
however there is a drech and folks in areas are generaly aligned and in sync with that Mehalech or Dreech.
lets just understand the Derech. and continue to be Mechabed each other.
Maybe the Reform and conservative are dying out but let me add this note:
With the problem today with the litvishe world where Girls only want learning RICH boys and those girls are getting older and older and by not getting married and having children i believe this generation will NOT grow as fast they used too. 99.9% of chsidishe girls get married by the age of 21-23 and by 25 most of them are mothers and starting to grow the next generation. Its time where all the Gedole Hador should address this problem and change the way those girls are thought….
#39 ..another proof you MO are on the way of reform..your mocking the first mitzvah ‘pru urvu’. by the way you have no inkling of the meaning of chassidus if you can say ‘ahem’ is a chasid
So Lamm believes in “don’t ask, don’t tell”! Would he throw a practicing homosexual out of the smicha program? After all, he kept it to himself.
Homosexuality is an abnormal mental deviation and is not the same as not covering one’s hair. The Torah is quite clear about homosexuality. One of our and society’s basic laws is “Pru U Revu.”
folks it makes no difference if the person is modern orthodontist or whatever, the bottom line is they need to be shomray shabbos & shomray torah u’mitzvos.
sorry to interupt the long line of polemics, but I feel that R’ Lamm’s point was completely missed. His speech stressed unity amongst MO and charedim. Last time I checked no one, on any side of the road, can argue with more achdus amongst observant Jews. Whatever you think of R’ Lamm or MO, certainly anyone will be hard pressed to critisize this message. Thus, lets congratulate R’ Lamm for supporting something which is needs much support: achdus.
The chradim here don’t know what is happening outside Brooklyn most Jewish community’s are modern Orth . and they are just as religious or more as the charadim.
folks it makes no difference if the person is modern orthodontist or whatever, the bottom line is they need to be shomray shabbos & shomray torah u’mitzvos.
i actualy went through the majority of comments written prior to this writing 49 to be exact.
fascinating # when sefira is considered and its message digested.
Rabbi Lamm has reached his position of prominence in yu with his credentials. these same qualifications are not going to earn him a position in Lakewood or ponevez.
at least not as Head master or Rosh yeshiva.
nontheless he must be respected for who he is and what he represents as a spokesperson for his his organization.
to his credit he simply made some observations most of which the torah world agrees with.
its his shitah and interpretation of halacha or loose definition of such that would be cause for a stir.
he isnt moderate or modern he is simply wrong on interpretation. kind of like wrong pshat.
for example his policy on homosexuality is politicaly correct but there is no precedent in halacha anywhere that says our approach should be as his is.
there really is no reason to fly off on tangents and bring every issue into the conversation.
best of luck and happy lag baomer.
to # 49 many colors and types exist some are well informed some misinformed ands some uninformed.
just listen to hannity on the street segment thursdays 5 to 6 you will realize how clueless people are.
among yidden we are considered pretty in the know.
we may agree to disagree, however no personal attacks or stereoyyping are needed.
to go the other way i will comment about an observation tried and tested regarding the japaneese boys in prison, in the chareidi world that you refer to it, everyone knows about the case and has actively davened and pleaded maybe donated as well. whereas the modern are much less in the loop about it> would you write abiut the modern that “they dont know whats happening outside their neighborhoods”
its funny how some people here who would go bezerk if someone talked disrespectfully about one of their own gedolim have no problem being chutzpadik or tlaking down or much leses \being mevazeh rabbi lamm. HE IS A GADOL BATORAH he is a buki in halacha, in shas and poskim. He is a rosh hayeshiva who gives shiurei klali biyun, he is a baal mussar who gives musar shmueesen , he is a darshan par excellence, and a jewish historian and philosopher. he has a phd and has authored dozens of books and sefoim on everything from shema to chassidus.
He also happens to be a expert in chemistry, and is an incredible businessman.
all this aside from the fact that he is on the side of torah and mitzvos and has devoted his entire life to avodas hakodesh and being mekayeim kidush sheim shamayim.
There is only one Judaism, Torah true Judaism. Moshiach will be the one to abolish dilutions of our holy Torah and bring us “all” back to Torah and Mitzvos! May Hashem bless us with the Geulah soon!
Some people here don’t know what they are talking about. Rabbi Dr. Lamm shlite is a Chassidishe Yid, a heiseh Chusid. His father a’H shtammed from belzer Chassidim and his mother o”h was from a choshuver Rabbonishe mishpocho with connections to Sanz. Rabbi Lamm was the first Chassidishe President of YU and has written books promoting Chassides. He lived in Williamsburg in his youth, where his zeide z”l was a Rav. He also learned in Torah Vodaas and was a talmid of Rav Pam zt”l.
Nice try, Dr.Lamm.
The “Modern Orthodox” movement is also dying, albeit at a slower pace than Conservative and Reform, because any compromise with secular values sabotages Yiddishkeit and drains it of it authenticity. Young people seek “the Real Thing.”
Dr.Lamm is an arrogant fellow, a brilliant intellectual–like the Pope–who has no reverence for our Gedolim, and who has openly dismissed the Torah decisions of our great Poskim, like Horav Moshe Feinstein, ZT”L.
First, without any reservation, I can state that the orthodox community has and remains the wellspring from which Judaism continues. Of course I mean that religiously and socially, but also from a purely numbers standpoint too. “All” of the non-orthodox can trace themselves or their parents, grandparents.. etc to orthodoxy. The big shift after the holocaust was the number who left the fold. As happened throughout history these numbers and it may take (hopefully Moshiach will come first) a hundred years or so will again be normalized where the strictly orthodox will be the largest population and fringe groups which in some ways I include modern orthodoxy as well as gay orthodox, reconstrucionist, whatever you want to call them, will always draw from the rich minds and personalities that are constantly being created from the true orthodox community. Once this occurs the true gedolim and poskim will be heard, respected and their words will compel people to action. The first time we will see this will be in Israel for perhaps in just the next 30 or so years the charedim will vote on block and be able to become a controlling minority.
Dr. Lamm clearly, like most groups wants to affiliate with the true orthodox to have the legitimacy to say the things he is proposing. However, he only speaks for a small fraction of orthodox jews and thus an even smaller group of jews in general. The bottom line is his words are subtly inflammatory but does make good news and inspires now 66 people to blog about it. At least this blog is on a known-to-orthodox-only-website and not on Times-on-line.
deepthinker:
What was Horav Moshe Feinstein, ZT”L.’s position on all the programs and connivery that an embarassing percentage of those to the right of the Mod Orth movement are resorting to? Think deeply, if you have to.
con·nive (k-nv)
intr.v. con·nived, con·niv·ing, con·nives
1. To cooperate secretly in an illegal or wrongful action; collude: The dealers connived with customs officials to bring in narcotics.
2. To scheme; plot.
3. To feign ignorance of or fail to take measures against a wrong, thus implying tacit encouragement or consent: The guards were suspected of conniving at the prisoner’s escape.
“who is to say what “the real thing” is? Lakewood?”–(no.73)
YES, LAKEWOOD!
Rav Aaron Kotler, ZT”L, in his published HesPed on the Brisker Rav condemned the “Modern” Orthodox movement, led by the Lamm broters–Maurice and Norman–as another form of Jewish heresy, like Reform and Conservative, a movement to change Judaism, to change the Torah, to conform more to the politically-correct fashions of the “Times.”
Once you cast aside the anchor of authentic HalaChic tradition, it becomes a matter of degree, how far and how quickly you drift out to sea. The only difference between the cntinuum of Reconstructionist, Reform, Conservative, and Modern-Orthodox is the speed of the drift.
The destination is the same–total assimilation.
#70 whats the kashia on what torah true jusdaism is.. its the written torah an the oral torah which is codified in the arba chelkai shulchen urech .all orthodox yidden adhere to it .Mo find heterim even fo issurei deoireise EG: mixed swimming, dancing…and now , Dr. Rabbiner
has no problem with this toaiveh …
In theory you make sense, in practice- that’s something else.
What was Horav Aaron Kotler, ZT”L.’s position on all the programs and connivery that an embarassing percentage of those to the right of the Mod Orth movement are resorting to?
Please resond. Think deeply, if you have to.
#76 that’s excellent..git arubgleigt…and one poster had nerve to call ….holy tzaddik….how is he compared to , im refraining to say lehavdel , rav kaneivsky, rav wosner, rav shechter and l’h bein hachaim igros moshe , vayoel moshe, munchas yitzchok munczhd elozor etc,
how bout reb norman bieng guest speaker at lakewood, next fundraiser or torah vdaas satmar etc… so he can proclaim to the world how emes prevails
I don’t get it either. If I am shomer mitzvos… but choose to wear a polo shirt and khakis once in a while instead of my usual shirt/tie/slacks/hat combination… am I considered modern orthodox? If I wear the wrong KIND of hat what am I? If I go to school to learn a trade, am I completely ‘off the derech’?
I mean really…. I have known plenty of people on Boro Park who cheated on their wives… wives who cheated on husbands…. are they above me or below me on the “orthodox” scale because of who they associate with or how much welfare they get? If I only have time to learn 1-2 hours a day at this point am I suddenly considered Reform?
If I don’t hate every muslim I see and think that every single xian is an antisemite, am I still “frum”? If I accept the non-frum yidden around me and work hard to bring them back to the derech by example, what group do I belong to?
All of the sudden, I can’t figure out where I fit in… I always considered myself part of the “ultra orthodox” group… but I may be wrong. I believe that Torah and society exist together just fine. Freedom of choice and association allow me to live a Torah life and still relate to others. I can respect my neighbors and my community and the social norms of a civilized society without giving ONE INCH on halocho… so where do I fit in?
It’s L”G B’Omer and we didn’t learn ANYTHING from the talmidim of R’ Akiva? The amount of bickering, disparaging remarks, insults, slander, and raw hatred for one another here is astounding and sickening.
Alright, so some don’t agree with Rabbi Lamm. And some don’t agree with Lakewood, or Boro Park, or Monsey, or whatever type/kind/flavor of Jew/Branch/Sect/Approach. But just because we disagree doesn’t mean we can vilify like this.
There were 12 shvatim. There are 70 “faces” to Torah. But nowadays, if you don’t agree with everything I say then you are an apikorus and a kofer b’ikur!
News Flash: not one single Rabbi or Rebbe nor one single Yeshiva is beyond reproach. No one is perfect. And no derech is perfect for everyone.
YU has had people go off the derech. And so have plenty of Yeshivot.
We can survive all types of outside attacks. But when Jews hate each other, we lose the protection of Shamayim. How will we survive with this type of hatred for one another?
#85 cant take the heat get out of the kitchen. ‘there are 70 faces of the torah’ and there are many more who ‘deface’ the torah. please ,you have nerve to say regarding those who are mechallel the torah by saying its ok to disregard cerain mitzvos, as part of the ’70 faces of the torah’. if you dont know hilcho lashon hora please dont show it. see mes. psochim lashon, horah does not apply to those who profain the torah espcially a public figure…the chafetz chaim spoke out very strongly against the profaners of torah ..chovevei tzion and the likes
#86 a maskil came to slonim to darshen. the sonomer rebb sent one of his chassidim ,a torah sage, to refute him. so this maskil also mentioned what you maskil are saying about the rambam. so this chasid asked to speak. he said a prable. : a magid came to town and darshened the gemmorah in shabbos ‘ who is rich one who has bais hakisey near his ‘table’ ” nu, the simplitons went ahead and heeded this mamar chazal..after a while he checked how they were doing and most of them complained they cant take the smell except for 2-3 persons. upon fuhrther investiatigtion he figured it out. the complainers were paupers who live in 2 rooms and put thel avatory near their rooms so avade it smelled up thier bais, the other few were rich who had a dozen or so rooms so the smell didnt affect him. o this chasid finnishes by saying the the rambam was rich bechol hatorah so the smell of kefira your torah umada entailed did not affect , not so with ones who are still far in keddusha they are far from being immune to sifrei minos..and that was the shito of holy tzaddikim of all generations , not the DR Rabinner kind
#88 there is a big difference between one who is oiver a mitzvah because who couldnt overcome his desires and one who disregards a mitzvah and says its not for me , outdated etc. the firat is still beklall yisroerl the second is a mummur.
Some of you are very quick to lambaste Dr. Lamm. All he was suggesting is that there be more unity. I know, that’s a terrible thing to suggest. I, for one, have a huge problem with the modern orthodox: they need to be more like us Chareidim. They need more infighting, such as there is in Satmar, Bobov, etc. Only then can they truly make Kiddush Hashem like we do.