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Greenville, NC - Appointment Of First Female Black Rabbi Reignites Stark Division Between Orthodox And Reform Movement

Published on: May 21, 2009 06:37 PM
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Alysa Stanton, 45, will become the first African-American woman to be ordained as a rabbi next monthAlysa Stanton, 45, will become the first African-American woman to be ordained as a rabbi next month

Greenville, NC - Growing up in a black, Pentecostal family in Cleveland, Alysa Stanton never imagined the day when she would be preparing to be ordained as a Jewish rabbi.

But that day will come June 6 for the single mother who will be ordained by the Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion in Cincinnati, becoming the first African-American female rabbi in the world.

“Ten years ago, if someone said I was going to be a rabbi, I would have laughed,” Stanton, 45, told ABCnews.com. “Me, a spiritual leader?”

Soon-to-be rabbi Stanton and her daughter Shana, 14, whom she adopted when she was 14 months old, will move to Greenville, N.C., in August, where Stanton will take her spot behind the pulpit at Congregation Bayt Shalom, which is both conservative and reform.

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First Female Black Rabbi
Stanton, a reform Jew, said that her mother encouraged her to explore different religions as a young child and that, at the age of 9, she was already asking her priest to teach her about Kaballah, which focuses on the mystical aspect of Judaism.
Then, at age 10, she received her first Hebrew grammar book from her devout Christian uncle who made it a habit to attend Jewish ceremonies, as well as his own. By her early 20s, Stanton said she’d decided to convert.

“Most people convert because they’re marrying or dating someone who is Jewish or for another reason other than just picking that spiritual path,” Stanton said.

“I did so because it was the path for me,” she said. “Not only from a religious standpoint but from an ethical and social and communal standpoint, it was important to me.”


Stanton Garners Mixed Reaction from Jewish Community
Twenty percent of the U.S. Jewish population, or about 1.2 million people, are diverse, meaning black, Asian, Latino or mixed race, according to the Institute for Jewish and Community Outreach in San Francisco.

“What’s important here is not that this is the first black woman rabbi but rather that it’s a symbol of a great change in the American Jewish community, which is becoming much more diverse because of things like conversions, intermarriage and adoption,” said Jonathan Sarna, an expert on U.S. Judaism at Brandeis University in Boston.

“That is a change that is really significant,” Sarna said. “That a community that even 50 years ago was rather monolithic, so much so that people thought they could look at someone and see if he ‘looked Jewish.’

“This is a reminder that the chosen people, so to speak, is not one race or another race but are in fact a range of races,” he said. “While Jews remain united by a bond of peoplehood as well as religion, that bond is not characterized in racial terms.”

But the Orthodox Jewish community, which has historically not permitted women to hold leadership roles in its congregations, is less accepting of Stanton’s upcoming ordination because of her sex.

“My general feeling, as a rabbi, is that there is a great deal of room for everyone to have spiritual fulfillment in Judaism but the public role of a rabbi is only for certain people and that excludes women,” Orthodox Rabbi Gil Student of New York City told ABCNews.com. “That’s based on tradition and enshrined in law.”

As for race, Student said that neither he nor the Orthodox Jewish community finds any problem with African-American Jews. “There is no such thing as skin color in Judaism, it doesn’t exist,” Student said.

Shlomah Shamos, the chief editor of the popular New York Orthodox Jewish news site Vosizneias.com, said that as the reform and conservative movements continue to ordain female rabbis, the Orthodox Jewish community is finding it increasingly difficult to associate with them.

Still, he added, “Orthodox Jews have the highest respect for women and they play the most important role to raise a true Torah Jewish family.”

Michael Barondes, the president of the congregation in North Carolina where Stanton will work, said that he was pleasantly surprised that her hiring did not spark any controversy among congregants.

“I’m very proud of my community,” Barondes said. “[Stanton’s being a woman or being black] never came up in conversation. Obviously, we all know that’s unusual but when she got on the pulpit during her visit, it was totally comfortable.”


Converting to Judaism
As for Stanton, she said that her family’s reaction to her conversion was ultimately positive, despite having a church pianist as a mother and a church choir director as a sister.

“I think at first they thought, ‘OK, she’s going through a phase of exploration,’” Stanton said.

When her family realized she was serious about Judaism, Stanton said they became “supportive” and “wonderful.”

Before studying to become a rabbi, Stanton had a career as a psychotherapist in Denver, Colo., specializing in grief and trauma. A first responder after the Columbine High School shooting in 1999, Stanton said that her experience counseling and communicating will benefit her as the leader of a congregation.

Asked whether she foresees any challenges in becoming the rabbi of a mostly-white congregation, Stanton said that she is not concerned about how her race may affect her career.

“There’s an adjustment period for any rabbi when they go to a new congregation,” Stanton said. “I am not anticipating that race will be a factor in their adjustment.

“My style and their style of worshipping will be the things we focus on, not the color of our skin.”

Stanton still anticipates some challenges in her new position.

“It’s difficult paving new ground,” she said. “It’s difficult being a first of anything, and although I’m honored and in awe that God has given me this responsibility, it’s one that I do not take lightly.”


First Female Rabbi Offers Advice to First Black Female Rabbi
Rabbi Sally Priesand knows all too well what it’s like to be a pioneer in the Jewish faith.

Priesand became the first ordained female rabbi in the United States in 1974, a time when many members of the Jewish community reserved the role of a congregation leader only for men.

“It is hard to be the first,” said Priesand, who retired in 2006 from the New Jersey congregation where she worked for 25 years. “I was well aware everyone would judge the concept of female rabbis by what I did.”

Priesand said that she spent much of her last year in rabbinical school traveling the country so that people would see that “she was a human like everyone else,” a decision she said was important to gaining the trust and respect of her congregants.

“Every time I preached a sermon or officiated a bar or bat mitvah for many people, it was the first time they had ever interacted with a female rabbi,” she said. “I knew that when they left that would be their opinion of a female rabbi.”

When she was faced with people who believed she was filling a role that would be better suited for a man, Priesand said she learned to listen.

“I had a rule that I would never argue with anyone who thought women shouldn’t be rabbis,” Priesand said. “I would listen and I would say, ‘Thank you so much for your opinion’ and I would walk away.”

“I don’t believe you can really accomplish your goal by arguing, you just have to do it,” she said, “and then people judge you for who you are as a person.”

Asked what advice she’d give Stanton, whom she plans to see ordained next month in Ohio, Priesand said, “Be yourself.”

“When you’re the first of something, there’s a lot of notoriety that goes a long with that and it’s easy to lose your focus along the way,” she said.

“When I was ordained, everyone thought that they knew what I should do and how I should dress and how I should be and I’m rather proud of the fact that I’ve always been able to be myself,” she said. “You cannot please everyone and so you have to be true to your own standards.”


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1

 May 21, 2009 at 05:48 PM Askupeh Says:

What did she study to become a Rabbi? She believes and is in awe of G-d so I suppose she is a Conservative Rabbi. At least she will be herself.

2

 May 21, 2009 at 05:54 PM yehudis Says:

this temple is both conservative and reform!?! what else?

3

 May 21, 2009 at 05:54 PM First non Jewish female black Rabbi Says:

Her Reform conversion is invalid. Even if it were valid, she would be disqualified as a Rabbi because she doesn't practice Judaism (Reform is not Judaism) and because Orthodox law does not sanction women rabbis.

The only thing she is missing is that she is not gay. If she were, she would be a perfect mismatch.

5

 May 21, 2009 at 05:54 PM Anonymous Says:

whould stantana rabbi come to brooklyn to feer a tish?

6

 May 21, 2009 at 05:58 PM Anonymous Says:

If we would accept more women like her in our religion then the rate of anti-semitisem would be much lower.

7

 May 21, 2009 at 06:17 PM Anonymous Says:

All the Orthodox Rabbis quoted talked about the woman part of it, but failed to mention the more pressing concern: she's not even Jewish! There is no way her conversion is valid. Yes, woman rabbis are a problem, but the reform and conservative have been ordaining women for years, so that's not big news; black rabbi is a bigger deal, but no reason for it to be controversial; but here, she's not even a Jew, plain and simple! That's the real issue here.

8

 May 21, 2009 at 06:15 PM Anonymous Says:

This is great.
an african-american who loves judaism. learns about it. goes to a reform place. they tell her we will make you jewish. what a lie. its nice she wants to be jewish. her conversion is not kosher. so now we have a goy who loves judaism preeching to the jewish and non jewish people in a house of worship in south carolina. you realy cant call a reform or conservative place a shul. its not torah observant. maybe a jewish center. but how many other people in the pews of that center in south carolina had illigitimate conversions. and then their children are not jewish. we live in a crazy wolrd. does the reform movement know that it is bastardizing judaism? we have to educate our fellow jews in a respectful way. education is the key, or atleast one of them on a big keychain.

and people think the medina is crazy. lets look in our own backyard.

9

 May 21, 2009 at 06:14 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

If we would accept more women like her in our religion then the rate of anti-semitisem would be much lower.

If pandering to populist demands is what it takes to decrease anti anything for any religious creed then the creed needs to be proud that some populists are against it. Setting aside the halachic issues around a female rabbi or for that matter whether this is Judaism or not. What is it about this story that makes it a story? Is it because she's black, a woman, and a self-described Jewess looking to make a contribution to the promotion of Judaism? Is it because she's a single mom who found a job in a very selective and demanding field? Is it because we take ourselves to seriously and this story is meant to loosen us up? I don't know why this is a story. But I do know, for myself, that pandering to populist demands is inherently fraught with being caught up in demands that are impossible to satisfy.

10

 May 21, 2009 at 06:08 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
First non Jewish female black Rabbi Says:

Her Reform conversion is invalid. Even if it were valid, she would be disqualified as a Rabbi because she doesn't practice Judaism (Reform is not Judaism) and because Orthodox law does not sanction women rabbis.

The only thing she is missing is that she is not gay. If she were, she would be a perfect mismatch.

We have in our history even a prophet as a women!!! The only different is, in our generation whoever Jumps out with a new extreme idea then everyone is afraid to disagree!!

11

 May 21, 2009 at 06:08 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

If we would accept more women like her in our religion then the rate of anti-semitisem would be much lower.

For the same reason that Xians stopped being a target of antisemitism! When the goyim become a majority and take over, the antisemites stop seeing you as Jewish, and instead of fighting you they join you, and you become an antisemitic religion yourself. We're already beginning to see that with reform.

12

 May 21, 2009 at 06:05 PM Milhouse Says:

The main reason she would not be welcome as an Orthodox rabbi isn't even that she's a woman but that she's not Jewish. If she converted properly, and learned halacha properly, then she could pasken shaylos. She could even have one of those new titles R Avi Weiss is handing out. I personally see no reason she couldn't be an assistant rabbi at an Orthodox shul. As for being the official shul-rov, being a woman is no more or less a barrier than being a ger; any shul that would hire her if she were male should have no extra problem just because she's female. But all this is irrelevant since she shows no sign of interest in real Judaism. So long as she's happy in her cult, and they're happy with her, I'm happy for them both.

As for her skin colour, that's only an issue among reform and conservatives, who make a big deal out of it. In any Orthodox shul a properly qualified rabbi who happened to be black would be no issue at all.

13

 May 21, 2009 at 06:01 PM cincy jew Says:

she was "ordained"reformat hebrew uniom college, she actually converted modern orthodox and then decided she wanted to be a "rabbi"

14

 May 21, 2009 at 06:26 PM PMO Says:

She says: "Ten years ago, if someone said I was going to be a rabbi, I would have laughed,"

The ironic part is that we all laughed for a moment when we heard this story.

However, it is really nothing to laugh at. This woman was taken from xianity under false pretense. I feel terrible for this poor woman. She has been lied to and tricked into something that she believes is actual Judaism. I don't doubt her sencerity, or her commitment at all. It seems that she is completely and honestly devoted to this... not realizing it is all a sham. We, as yidden, have an obligation to gently and politely try to undo this desecration of Torah and halacha. If this woman really wants to be a yid, we should certainly embrace her and help her find her way to a life of Torah, otherwise she should be shown how she fell for a scam and helped back to her xian life.

This is an outrageous embarrassment! I only hope that H" will guide this woman toward the truth and either help her find a real Torah life... or help her find her way out of this abomination.

15

 May 21, 2009 at 06:22 PM Babishka Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

If we would accept more women like her in our religion then the rate of anti-semitisem would be much lower.

She seems like a very nice, sincere person, unfortunately misled but that is not her fault. But I do not understand how having more people like her (nice, sincere, easily misled) would cause anti-Semitism to decline? Maybe you can explain.

16

 May 21, 2009 at 06:34 PM chaim Says:

#6 and if we abandoned the whole torah then there really wouldnt be any anti- semetism. see ohr hacahaim hak.. parshes lec lecah posuk 'vegam es hagoy.....dan enoichy'

17

 May 21, 2009 at 06:34 PM Anonymous Says:

Women of any religion belong at home with the kids/

18

 May 21, 2009 at 06:33 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #10  
Anonymous Says:

We have in our history even a prophet as a women!!! The only different is, in our generation whoever Jumps out with a new extreme idea then everyone is afraid to disagree!!

We've had at least seven women whom we know to have been prophets, and probably many more whom we don't. How is that at all relevant? If she were Jewish, and we had evidence that prophecy had returned, and she claimed to be a prophet, nobody would have a problem with that. But to occupy a position of authority over Jews is another matter. (Then again, it's possible that the majority of her congregation aren't Jewish either, so that's not an issue!)

19

 May 21, 2009 at 06:47 PM Avrohom Abba Says:

First, I wish her happiness and satisfaction and love. Next, I strongly recommend to her that she go to an Orthodox rabbi and ask to be toiveled following the halachos for being a ger. When they notice her sincerity and conviction and her knowledge of the laws, she should be able to join our people easily.
Next is, I hope she is accepted and that she helps many people who are in need of spiritual and emotional help.
Because she comes from a background where discrimination probably clouded her entire life, and because she has chosen to join us, I want her to know that I feel she is very welcome, and that regardles of those labels of Reform or Conservative or Orthodox, she is still a fine and good person, and I wish her many good blessings and I support her efforts. In general, I support every Jew, and that means I don't care if they are Reform or Conservative or Orthodox or Chasidic or other denominations and gay or not. My brothers and sisters are my brothers and sisters, period, and I will support every one of them and I love each and every one of us. However, unfortunately, I have a big problem with loving the Neturei Karta members because they knowingly try to hurt the feelings of the Jewish people.

20

 May 21, 2009 at 07:30 PM Blakesmom Says:

No one has commented on the statistic quoted that 20% of US Jews are "diverse," meaning black, Asian, etc. Maybe that is the case in San Francisco - I find it hard to believe for the overall US. And how many of those are truly halachically Jewish? Anyone know if this statistic is accurate?

21

 May 21, 2009 at 07:23 PM Anonymous Says:

There are other black rabbis who were converts. Rabbi Capers Funnye is a relative of Michelle Obama. Rabbi Natan Gamedze is an African prince who converted to Judaism and became an orthodox rabbi.

www.aish.com/spirituality/odysseys/The_Royal_Jew_From_Swaziland.asp

22

 May 21, 2009 at 07:57 PM abi gezint Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

If we would accept more women like her in our religion then the rate of anti-semitisem would be much lower.

u can try untill tommorow to explain the reasons of antisemithism , i say give up it is a part of nature as is day and night , live ur life and follow the torah and tredition and leave the reasons to hasem who created them.

23

 May 21, 2009 at 07:54 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #20  
Blakesmom Says:

No one has commented on the statistic quoted that 20% of US Jews are "diverse," meaning black, Asian, etc. Maybe that is the case in San Francisco - I find it hard to believe for the overall US. And how many of those are truly halachically Jewish? Anyone know if this statistic is accurate?

If you count Edot Hamizrach, Indian Jews, etc., as "Asian", then I'm surprised it's that low. If you count only people of African, Oriental, and American Indian descent, then the figure for real Jews is probably lower than 20%, but 10% wouldn't surprise me.

24

 May 21, 2009 at 07:45 PM joseph Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

If we would accept more women like her in our religion then the rate of anti-semitisem would be much lower.

if you would study history just a drop yu would realize that anti semitism has nothing to do with us embracing the gentile quite the contrary
judaism does not encourage converts etc thats where we differ from the other religions
we are the smallest and are content to stay that way

25

 May 21, 2009 at 07:41 PM Anonymous Says:

Way to go, Reform!

Far down the wrong path, that is . . . far away from us.

26

 May 21, 2009 at 07:18 PM Anonymous Says:

"So long as she's happy in her cult, and they're happy with her, I'm happy for them both."

Reform is a cult but your fundamentalism isn't. Pretty funny.

27

 May 21, 2009 at 06:57 PM jw Says:

if shes a rabbi who exactly is her rebbetzin??

28

 May 21, 2009 at 06:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #19  
Avrohom Abba Says:

First, I wish her happiness and satisfaction and love. Next, I strongly recommend to her that she go to an Orthodox rabbi and ask to be toiveled following the halachos for being a ger. When they notice her sincerity and conviction and her knowledge of the laws, she should be able to join our people easily.
Next is, I hope she is accepted and that she helps many people who are in need of spiritual and emotional help.
Because she comes from a background where discrimination probably clouded her entire life, and because she has chosen to join us, I want her to know that I feel she is very welcome, and that regardles of those labels of Reform or Conservative or Orthodox, she is still a fine and good person, and I wish her many good blessings and I support her efforts. In general, I support every Jew, and that means I don't care if they are Reform or Conservative or Orthodox or Chasidic or other denominations and gay or not. My brothers and sisters are my brothers and sisters, period, and I will support every one of them and I love each and every one of us. However, unfortunately, I have a big problem with loving the Neturei Karta members because they knowingly try to hurt the feelings of the Jewish people.

Beautifully said. BTW, one of the commenters said her conversion was by an MO rabbi, so isn't that sufficient?

29

 May 21, 2009 at 06:54 PM ETHNOCENTRIC Says:

us jews are losing our identity in america..we are taking to many people as converts...because it is politicly correct...in a few years even the anti-semites will not know who to hate!!!

30

 May 21, 2009 at 06:50 PM Askupeh Says:

Reply to #14  
PMO Says:

She says: "Ten years ago, if someone said I was going to be a rabbi, I would have laughed,"

The ironic part is that we all laughed for a moment when we heard this story.

However, it is really nothing to laugh at. This woman was taken from xianity under false pretense. I feel terrible for this poor woman. She has been lied to and tricked into something that she believes is actual Judaism. I don't doubt her sencerity, or her commitment at all. It seems that she is completely and honestly devoted to this... not realizing it is all a sham. We, as yidden, have an obligation to gently and politely try to undo this desecration of Torah and halacha. If this woman really wants to be a yid, we should certainly embrace her and help her find her way to a life of Torah, otherwise she should be shown how she fell for a scam and helped back to her xian life.

This is an outrageous embarrassment! I only hope that H" will guide this woman toward the truth and either help her find a real Torah life... or help her find her way out of this abomination.

Look PMO. Here you don’t even know her but your Mah Yofis tendencies make you believe and declare that she has the BEST of intentions. How do you know? Didn’t she say that she found it a good career? You are willing to be Dan her Lekaf Zchus based on absolutely nothing, just so that you could pat yourself on the shoulder and say what a MENTCH you are, yet you will call another Jew a racist, for no good reason, just because he sees things different then you?

31

 May 21, 2009 at 08:05 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #19  
Avrohom Abba Says:

First, I wish her happiness and satisfaction and love. Next, I strongly recommend to her that she go to an Orthodox rabbi and ask to be toiveled following the halachos for being a ger. When they notice her sincerity and conviction and her knowledge of the laws, she should be able to join our people easily.
Next is, I hope she is accepted and that she helps many people who are in need of spiritual and emotional help.
Because she comes from a background where discrimination probably clouded her entire life, and because she has chosen to join us, I want her to know that I feel she is very welcome, and that regardles of those labels of Reform or Conservative or Orthodox, she is still a fine and good person, and I wish her many good blessings and I support her efforts. In general, I support every Jew, and that means I don't care if they are Reform or Conservative or Orthodox or Chasidic or other denominations and gay or not. My brothers and sisters are my brothers and sisters, period, and I will support every one of them and I love each and every one of us. However, unfortunately, I have a big problem with loving the Neturei Karta members because they knowingly try to hurt the feelings of the Jewish people.

Well said, I only hope that you understand that every Jew regardless of there denomination is a Jew, yes even reform I would reframe from doing Hashem’s work i.e. judging the Jewish credentials of millions reform Jews.

32

 May 21, 2009 at 06:44 PM favel Says:

#9 there is Alice Taylor who is a true ger tzadek( think her father is baptist priest?)she has a book out on her route to judaism..

33

 May 21, 2009 at 06:41 PM Mottel Says:

There's no reason for reform not to accept a female 'rabbi', or a gay/lesbian pulpiteer or even a fine healthy goat as a spiritual leader, since they believe in nothing. They have no rules besides the social mores of the times.
When the secular world will sanction bestial marriage so will their awful leaders, as a principle of human and animal rights.
They may eat what they desire, marry what (sic) they desire, believe what they desire...as long as it makes them 'feel comfortable' and 'in touch with their inner self' and 'feel empowered' and of course 'appreciate who they are as a person'. Faugh!
All my bitterness is not towards our lost Jewish brethren ensnared by the reform poison, but towards the sickeningly fraudulent 'leaders' who knowingly and cold-bloodedly lead countless numbers of pure Jews into a black emptiness and beyond

34

 May 21, 2009 at 06:38 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

If we would accept more women like her in our religion then the rate of anti-semitisem would be much lower.

Hogwash, it would not change anti semitisim downward one iota most likely it would increase.
As far as accepting more like her, what do you mean, non-white? There are many who are accepted by all as jews. It requires kabbolas hamitzvos among other requirements which seems to be lacking here.

The issue is that according to halacha a women nor a ger is supposed to be in a position of communal leadership. Yes they can be learned and know halachan that is not the issue. But Shrara is excluded.

A side point is that it seems the point is that it is a black woman being hired that is main point for this congregation and the publicity that comes with it. Not adherence to halacha or experience or any of the other requirements for a rov.

But they got their 10 minutes of fame, I am glad they are happy. I am sure that they will encourage the new rabbi to include services from her days before she "converted" to add flavor and to show acceptance. How much longer before they start bringing other religious services exclusively and there will be nothing jewish at all remaining.

35

 May 21, 2009 at 08:11 PM Anonymous Says:

The reform movement propogates the worst lies. Here we have an innocent woman who's searching for Judaism and the reform sell her the Brooklyn Bridge.
Who can imagine the agony that this woman will feel when she finds out that she's been utterly deceived. Shame on the Reform movement for selling her this big lie.

36

 May 21, 2009 at 08:21 PM bertzel Says:

#31 as pointed out in other VIN articles more that 50% reform are intermarried and as the mother is not jewish they're not jewish

37

 May 21, 2009 at 08:17 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #22  
abi gezint Says:

u can try untill tommorow to explain the reasons of antisemithism , i say give up it is a part of nature as is day and night , live ur life and follow the torah and tredition and leave the reasons to hasem who created them.

It does indeed has a simple reason: we are a minority!! If gentiles would convert more we are okay.

38

 May 21, 2009 at 09:09 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
Milhouse Says:

The main reason she would not be welcome as an Orthodox rabbi isn't even that she's a woman but that she's not Jewish. If she converted properly, and learned halacha properly, then she could pasken shaylos. She could even have one of those new titles R Avi Weiss is handing out. I personally see no reason she couldn't be an assistant rabbi at an Orthodox shul. As for being the official shul-rov, being a woman is no more or less a barrier than being a ger; any shul that would hire her if she were male should have no extra problem just because she's female. But all this is irrelevant since she shows no sign of interest in real Judaism. So long as she's happy in her cult, and they're happy with her, I'm happy for them both.

As for her skin colour, that's only an issue among reform and conservatives, who make a big deal out of it. In any Orthodox shul a properly qualified rabbi who happened to be black would be no issue at all.

Ha! Ha! Ha! An Ethiopian Rabbi (truly black hat Chareidi) was interviewed by Mishpacha magazine and revealed that (surprise!) gets jeered and insulted every time he dares to go to Bnei Brak......"Goy!"

Our lady Rabbi has to attend proper seminary and undergo a halachic conversion and then the Aibishter should show her her true tachlis in life.

39

 May 21, 2009 at 08:59 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #18  
Milhouse Says:

We've had at least seven women whom we know to have been prophets, and probably many more whom we don't. How is that at all relevant? If she were Jewish, and we had evidence that prophecy had returned, and she claimed to be a prophet, nobody would have a problem with that. But to occupy a position of authority over Jews is another matter. (Then again, it's possible that the majority of her congregation aren't Jewish either, so that's not an issue!)

You have no idea what her qualifications are and how much of a torah scholar she may be. Rather than judging her by this article vy not spend a shabbos in NC and you may find her to be at a level with other great rabbonim. Clearly the yiddeshe community in Greenville who spent the time interviewing her and presumably male rabbonim found her to be the most impressive of the group and hired her. I wish her much hatzlacha (and hopefully she will have a positive affect in motivating the shul to become more frumme). Whiel she is not yet at a level of a neviah (thats Hebrew for "prophet") she has potential to be a great leader.

40

 May 21, 2009 at 09:27 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #24  
joseph Says:

if you would study history just a drop yu would realize that anti semitism has nothing to do with us embracing the gentile quite the contrary
judaism does not encourage converts etc thats where we differ from the other religions
we are the smallest and are content to stay that way

Actually Judaism does encourage converts, so long as they are sincere and committed for the long haul. What we are not interested in are converts who will stay for a few minutes or a few years, and then drop out; that's why we make sure a candidate knows what he's getting into, and has every opportunity to change his mind before he goes through with it. But those who convert and stay are what Hashem wants; they are the reason He sent us into golus in the first place.

41

 May 21, 2009 at 09:35 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #40  
Milhouse Says:

Actually Judaism does encourage converts, so long as they are sincere and committed for the long haul. What we are not interested in are converts who will stay for a few minutes or a few years, and then drop out; that's why we make sure a candidate knows what he's getting into, and has every opportunity to change his mind before he goes through with it. But those who convert and stay are what Hashem wants; they are the reason He sent us into golus in the first place.

Ve are in galus because of sinas chinam and our failure to love all yidden without regard to the derech they pursue. Rav Stanton shows every intention of being the kind of keruv that will be a role model for other rabbonim in terms of her love of torah, yirash shamayim and personal midos.

42

 May 21, 2009 at 09:32 PM 5 Towns Resident Says:

I have absolutely no problem with this lady becoming a Rabbi. Who knows, her devotion to Hashem may very well be a lot more genuine than those crooked, corrupt phonies in Boro Park and Williamsburg.

And there is such a thing as "a pintele Yid." Maybe one day her child will visit Israel or spend a year there and become frum.

I would rather have a hundred of these Reform Rabbis than an "ousvorf" or those jerks in the Neturei Karta.

43

 May 21, 2009 at 09:29 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #26  
Anonymous Says:

"So long as she's happy in her cult, and they're happy with her, I'm happy for them both."

Reform is a cult but your fundamentalism isn't. Pretty funny.

That's right. Though if you knew what the term "fundamentalism" means, you'd realise how inappropriate it was. We got rid of our fundamentalists 1200 years ago. But for those ignoramuses to whom "fundamentalist" means anyone who believes in an objective truth, I'm proud to be a "fundamentalist".

44

 May 21, 2009 at 10:17 PM PMO Says:

Reply to #42  
5 Towns Resident Says:

I have absolutely no problem with this lady becoming a Rabbi. Who knows, her devotion to Hashem may very well be a lot more genuine than those crooked, corrupt phonies in Boro Park and Williamsburg.

And there is such a thing as "a pintele Yid." Maybe one day her child will visit Israel or spend a year there and become frum.

I would rather have a hundred of these Reform Rabbis than an "ousvorf" or those jerks in the Neturei Karta.

Unfortunately, one of her children could go to E"Y and claim to be a yid... then C"V marry an actual yid and have more goyishe children who would claim to be yidden. Why would you wish this to happen? Are you a goy who likes seeing goyim work to destroy yiddishkeit?

45

 May 21, 2009 at 10:13 PM PMO Says:

Reply to #30  
Askupeh Says:

Look PMO. Here you don’t even know her but your Mah Yofis tendencies make you believe and declare that she has the BEST of intentions. How do you know? Didn’t she say that she found it a good career? You are willing to be Dan her Lekaf Zchus based on absolutely nothing, just so that you could pat yourself on the shoulder and say what a MENTCH you are, yet you will call another Jew a racist, for no good reason, just because he sees things different then you?

I have read more about her. Her sincerity does appear to be genuine and I can't find any FACTS about her to say otherwise.

I was quick to call "someone" a racist, because it was quickly clear from their unsubstantiated stereotyping of Muslims that he is, in fact, somewhat of a racist.... as shown by the facts laid out.

46

 May 21, 2009 at 10:17 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #42  
5 Towns Resident Says:

I have absolutely no problem with this lady becoming a Rabbi. Who knows, her devotion to Hashem may very well be a lot more genuine than those crooked, corrupt phonies in Boro Park and Williamsburg.

And there is such a thing as "a pintele Yid." Maybe one day her child will visit Israel or spend a year there and become frum.

I would rather have a hundred of these Reform Rabbis than an "ousvorf" or those jerks in the Neturei Karta.

There is only a pintele yid in an actual yid.

47

 May 21, 2009 at 10:16 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #39  
Anonymous Says:

You have no idea what her qualifications are and how much of a torah scholar she may be. Rather than judging her by this article vy not spend a shabbos in NC and you may find her to be at a level with other great rabbonim. Clearly the yiddeshe community in Greenville who spent the time interviewing her and presumably male rabbonim found her to be the most impressive of the group and hired her. I wish her much hatzlacha (and hopefully she will have a positive affect in motivating the shul to become more frumme). Whiel she is not yet at a level of a neviah (thats Hebrew for "prophet") she has potential to be a great leader.

Sheigetz arois. You are not wanted on VIN. She is not a rov, and therefore by definition not on a level with even the tiniest rabbonim. If there is a yiddishe community in Greenville they have nothing to do with her; the church that hired her is less Jewish than the one she grew up in.

48

 May 21, 2009 at 10:14 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #41  
Anonymous Says:

Ve are in galus because of sinas chinam and our failure to love all yidden without regard to the derech they pursue. Rav Stanton shows every intention of being the kind of keruv that will be a role model for other rabbonim in terms of her love of torah, yirash shamayim and personal midos.

Sheigetz arois. You are not wanted on VIN. Reform is not a "derech", it has less in common with Judaism than does Xianity, and anyone who claims it's a "derech" in Judaism is by definition a sheigetz.

49

 May 21, 2009 at 10:02 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #31  
Anonymous Says:

Well said, I only hope that you understand that every Jew regardless of there denomination is a Jew, yes even reform I would reframe from doing Hashem’s work i.e. judging the Jewish credentials of millions reform Jews.

Every Jew regardless of their denomination is a Jew, yes even Catholic or Buddhist. But a NON-Jew who joins those religions doesn't become Jewish, and neither does a non-Jew who joins reform or conservative. And from recent reports that now adds up to about half of all "reform Jews".

50

 May 21, 2009 at 09:59 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #29  
ETHNOCENTRIC Says:

us jews are losing our identity in america..we are taking to many people as converts...because it is politicly correct...in a few years even the anti-semites will not know who to hate!!!

How does taking converts -- real converts -- dilute our identity? They become just as Jewish as we are, so it strengthens our identity. How many converts are too many, in your opinion? Hashem wants us to take as many sincere committed converts as come to us; the gemara says we were sent into galus in order to gather converts, and the Shulchan Aruch warns us not to scare a candidate away by being too harsh with him.

51

 May 21, 2009 at 10:13 PM No pintele yid Says:

Reply to #42  
5 Towns Resident Says:

I have absolutely no problem with this lady becoming a Rabbi. Who knows, her devotion to Hashem may very well be a lot more genuine than those crooked, corrupt phonies in Boro Park and Williamsburg.

And there is such a thing as "a pintele Yid." Maybe one day her child will visit Israel or spend a year there and become frum.

I would rather have a hundred of these Reform Rabbis than an "ousvorf" or those jerks in the Neturei Karta.

Jewish translation - yid means Jew therefore she doesn't have a pintele yid and therefore her descendents won't since her conversion was invalid and she is not Jewish.

If she was truly sincere about yiddishkeit, Hashem would have led her on a path to Orthodox Judaism. So far, it appears that it is not genuine.

Your acceptance of Reform Rabbis who corrupt and befoul Judaism with their perversion of Judaism as opposed to your disdain of misguided but true Jews indicates your lack of understanding of the beauty and truth of real Judaism, Orthodox Judaism, and your distance from Jewish ideals.

May Hashem lead you to the correct path.



52

 May 21, 2009 at 09:45 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #36  
bertzel Says:

#31 as pointed out in other VIN articles more that 50% reform are intermarried and as the mother is not jewish they're not jewish

My point was that do not make a flat statement that reform is not Jewish, even if I take your position what about the other 49% therefore my position still is that let Hashem do the judging.

54

 May 21, 2009 at 11:32 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #52  
Anonymous Says:

My point was that do not make a flat statement that reform is not Jewish, even if I take your position what about the other 49% therefore my position still is that let Hashem do the judging.

Reform is not Jewish. That is a flat statement, and a true one. It is a foreign religion, about half of whose members are Jewish. That's a much bigger percentage than in most foreign religions, though at least at one point most Harry Kishmirs in America were Jewish.

55

 May 22, 2009 at 05:52 AM Anonymous Says:

I'm really surprised...so many of you are missing the point. She can't be an orthodox Rabbi. I can't be a Rabbi. We're women! Al pi Halacha (do I really have to remind you men?) women cannot be Rabbis.

Mind you, it is a shame. At least we'd have some "I know what you mean" & RESPECT, often sadly lacking, if women could pasken shailohs!

this has nothing to do with Gerus. It has everything to do with Halacha. Othodox gerus or not, she will never be a Rabbi!

56

 May 22, 2009 at 06:41 AM r u totaly outta ur mind Says:

Reply to #19  
Avrohom Abba Says:

First, I wish her happiness and satisfaction and love. Next, I strongly recommend to her that she go to an Orthodox rabbi and ask to be toiveled following the halachos for being a ger. When they notice her sincerity and conviction and her knowledge of the laws, she should be able to join our people easily.
Next is, I hope she is accepted and that she helps many people who are in need of spiritual and emotional help.
Because she comes from a background where discrimination probably clouded her entire life, and because she has chosen to join us, I want her to know that I feel she is very welcome, and that regardles of those labels of Reform or Conservative or Orthodox, she is still a fine and good person, and I wish her many good blessings and I support her efforts. In general, I support every Jew, and that means I don't care if they are Reform or Conservative or Orthodox or Chasidic or other denominations and gay or not. My brothers and sisters are my brothers and sisters, period, and I will support every one of them and I love each and every one of us. However, unfortunately, I have a big problem with loving the Neturei Karta members because they knowingly try to hurt the feelings of the Jewish people.

u really r crazy u think neturei kartah r worse then all the reformadox conservative and modern (that is also reformadox) they r STAM NOT RELIGIOUS PERIOD BECAUSE NON OF DEM R DOING WHAT THE CREATOR WANTS THEM TO DO PERIOD

57

 May 22, 2009 at 05:29 AM Daniel Says:

It seems that most of the commentors on this forum don't know what is a Jew.

I recommend they learn the first chapters of Tanya.

58

 May 22, 2009 at 03:08 AM Anonymous Says:

tzi lange schvartz'e yorn!

59

 May 22, 2009 at 02:53 AM Moshiach's Chosid Says:

We need to kindly explain to her that her conversion was invalid - since it is not Judaism itself it is "Reformed" and if she truly seeks Judaism she should go to orthodox Rabbi - he will handle her case properly since she does have some link and direction to/with Judaism. Meanwhile for her, she should be informed of the 7 Noahide laws for all gentiles. Moshiach NOW!

60

 May 22, 2009 at 02:44 AM African Americans aren't the only Africans Says:

There are many black rabbis. There are plenty of Yemenite and Sefardic Rabbis who are darker. Yet somehow they don't matter because they weren't brought to America on slave ships? Let's give respect where it is deserved. Ashkenazim are white because that's the area they lived, not because there is anything against black people.

It's only unfortunate that she got caught up in the trap of reform before she found real Judaism. Perhaps because Reform is so similar to the branch of protestant Christianity that she comes from, it was easy. With any luck, she will move up the ranks, convert conservative, orthodox, and one day look back and laugh at the emptiness of the reform movement.

61

 May 22, 2009 at 02:33 AM berel Says:

#41 where did you pick up this garbage? and what do you mean by 'the drech they pursue', is it the disregard of torah umitzvos, what derech is it ? the gemmorah , arvai psochim, even one is oiver one mitxvah is .mitzvah lisnoso because he brings choron af on yisroel.

62

 May 22, 2009 at 01:51 AM Aliza Hausman Says:

Where to begin? As a convert (an Orthodox convert since we know someone of you stopped reading as soon as you read 'convert' and some of you stopped reading even when I included Orthodox), I am disgusted with some of the things I read that supposed 'good frum yidden' have written about converts. Is it any wonder that people aren't running towards Orthodox Judaism in droves?

As for the ugly things being said about other Jews...yes, because even if you don't know how they practice Judaism, they are still Jewish, well...we're certainly not going to interest them in our way of life by treating them like the gum that sticks to the sidewalk and gets stuck to our shoes. In fact, most of the disgusting posts here only prove the worst that is being said about Orthodox Jews in other circles.

And for the stupid, closeminded, narrowminded things being said about people of other races, yes, including Jews of other races...I don't even know what to say. Can I say that I am disgusted too many times? There are many Jews of color that are not converts. On a regular basis, we are treated like crap in the Jewish community (Reform, Conservative AND Orthodox). Excuse me, to sum this all up, is the point that Judaism is about learning how to hate people? I must have missed that in the conversion process.

Perhaps, some of you should read MY blog and learn something. Not that I want you posting your disgusting little comments there, your disgusting little ANONYMOUS comments that you can't even add your name to...because you know they are disgusting!

63

 May 22, 2009 at 01:07 AM Anonymous Says:

haha i love # 27 comment hilarious stuff!!!!!

64

 May 22, 2009 at 12:46 AM Charlie Hall Says:

Reply to #18  
Milhouse Says:

We've had at least seven women whom we know to have been prophets, and probably many more whom we don't. How is that at all relevant? If she were Jewish, and we had evidence that prophecy had returned, and she claimed to be a prophet, nobody would have a problem with that. But to occupy a position of authority over Jews is another matter. (Then again, it's possible that the majority of her congregation aren't Jewish either, so that's not an issue!)

It is a machloket poskim as to whether a ger or a woman may serve in a leadership position, and as to what even constitutes a leadership position that might be a problem. There are male converts who have become Orthodox rabbis, and female converts who work as teachers.

65

 May 22, 2009 at 12:43 AM Charlie Hall Says:

Reply to #29  
ETHNOCENTRIC Says:

us jews are losing our identity in america..we are taking to many people as converts...because it is politicly correct...in a few years even the anti-semites will not know who to hate!!!

In my community you can't tell the converts from the born Jews. What is the problem?

66

 May 22, 2009 at 12:41 AM Charlie Hall Says:

Reply to #49  
Milhouse Says:

Every Jew regardless of their denomination is a Jew, yes even Catholic or Buddhist. But a NON-Jew who joins those religions doesn't become Jewish, and neither does a non-Jew who joins reform or conservative. And from recent reports that now adds up to about half of all "reform Jews".

The Reform movement has over a million dues paying members in the US; the overwhelming majority of whom are halachically Jewish.

(This may not be true a generation from now, but those are the facts on the ground today.)

67

 May 22, 2009 at 12:39 AM Charlie Hall Says:

Reply to #54  
Milhouse Says:

Reform is not Jewish. That is a flat statement, and a true one. It is a foreign religion, about half of whose members are Jewish. That's a much bigger percentage than in most foreign religions, though at least at one point most Harry Kishmirs in America were Jewish.

Your statement is not exactly correct from either the halachic or the historical perspective. Rabbi Barry Freundel addressed this a number of years ago and his essay is still on the Kesher Israel web site. Basically, separtist movements don't cease to be Jewish until the majority of members are no longer halachic Jews and they stop considering themselves to be a Jewish movement. Neither of those conditions apply to today's Reform movement. For example, that happened with Christianity, but did not happen with the Karaites, and hasn't happened to Reform. That doesn't mean we agree with that they say or do, but if a Reform Rabbi puts on tefillin or keeps Shabat, it matters!

68

 May 22, 2009 at 07:10 AM Berl Says:

Now what that Temple needs is some gospel music and dancing in the aisles, . Perhaps the Ministers of the reform(deformed) religion can persuade Whoopi Goldberg (she has a good start she has a Jewish name so the conversion requirements will be a minimal) to become Chazzan, she sang well and organized teh choir in the movie where she played a witness hiding as a Nun.
Black real Jews are not a chiddush, Crown Heights and Eretz Yisroel are full of them, in fact a Black African Prince Rav Natan Gamedze became a Ger Tzedek , learned in yeshiva is a musmach and very successful in Kiruv work.http://www.aish.com/spirituality/odysseys/The_Royal_Jew_From_Swaziland.asp
Sadly this lady is no more novel or Jewish than Michelle Obama's "rabbi" cousin Mr.Capers Funnye!
OTOH she is no less of a "rabbi" than her reform and conservative male counterparts!

69

 May 22, 2009 at 12:07 AM anon Says:

This beats Comedy Central!

70

 May 21, 2009 at 11:45 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #48  
Milhouse Says:

Sheigetz arois. You are not wanted on VIN. Reform is not a "derech", it has less in common with Judaism than does Xianity, and anyone who claims it's a "derech" in Judaism is by definition a sheigetz.

Why are you so terrified of an orthodox yid who has the guts to take a different perspective from the herd? What a revealing statement that actually exposes your insecurities and demons.

71

 May 22, 2009 at 08:18 AM Tzoorba Says:

Reply to #62  
Aliza Hausman Says:

Where to begin? As a convert (an Orthodox convert since we know someone of you stopped reading as soon as you read 'convert' and some of you stopped reading even when I included Orthodox), I am disgusted with some of the things I read that supposed 'good frum yidden' have written about converts. Is it any wonder that people aren't running towards Orthodox Judaism in droves?

As for the ugly things being said about other Jews...yes, because even if you don't know how they practice Judaism, they are still Jewish, well...we're certainly not going to interest them in our way of life by treating them like the gum that sticks to the sidewalk and gets stuck to our shoes. In fact, most of the disgusting posts here only prove the worst that is being said about Orthodox Jews in other circles.

And for the stupid, closeminded, narrowminded things being said about people of other races, yes, including Jews of other races...I don't even know what to say. Can I say that I am disgusted too many times? There are many Jews of color that are not converts. On a regular basis, we are treated like crap in the Jewish community (Reform, Conservative AND Orthodox). Excuse me, to sum this all up, is the point that Judaism is about learning how to hate people? I must have missed that in the conversion process.

Perhaps, some of you should read MY blog and learn something. Not that I want you posting your disgusting little comments there, your disgusting little ANONYMOUS comments that you can't even add your name to...because you know they are disgusting!

You seem to have a big chip on your shoulder.

People aren't all running from Orthodox Judaism. The sincere people who seek the truth are running to Orthodox Judaism.

Of course there are some misguided individuals who have a problem with any convert but the vast majority of even the commenters here did not express such attitudes.

Orthodox Jews have every right and duty to stand up against those falsifiers and counterfeiters of our holy way of life. We are obligated to say the truth despite the lack of political correctness involved. This in no way is a reflection of disdain for the poor, misguided adherents of Reform that are Jewish souls that have lost their way. No one here arguing against Reform does not consider a Reform Jew their brother/sister.

If we alienate some people because we paint the true picture of Reform, that's too bad because maintaining the truth of Judaism is more important than attracting disaffected Jews by false doctrines.

Being mikarev Jews is NOT the biggest mitzva in the Torah. Not falsifying Yiddishkeit comes ahead of it.

I don't know what your beef is about Orthodox Jews because some nice Orthodox boy apparently was open minded enough to marry you. You should work on your Hakoras Hatov rather than focus on the negatives.

72

 May 22, 2009 at 08:01 AM tzoorba Says:

Reply to #67  
Charlie Hall Says:

Your statement is not exactly correct from either the halachic or the historical perspective. Rabbi Barry Freundel addressed this a number of years ago and his essay is still on the Kesher Israel web site. Basically, separtist movements don't cease to be Jewish until the majority of members are no longer halachic Jews and they stop considering themselves to be a Jewish movement. Neither of those conditions apply to today's Reform movement. For example, that happened with Christianity, but did not happen with the Karaites, and hasn't happened to Reform. That doesn't mean we agree with that they say or do, but if a Reform Rabbi puts on tefillin or keeps Shabat, it matters!

There is no question that Reform Judaism is not Judaism in any sense of the word. It is actually an insult to true Judaism to claim that it needs to conform to some post modern fad or popular ideology.

This does not mean that the adherents who were born as Jews are not Jewish and nobody is claiming this. However, their conversions which are not done according to halacha are totally invalid.

73

 May 22, 2009 at 07:52 AM Yoselle Says:

I would enjoy her Tish on shaboss. The music I guess would be soul, the beat would be jazz. It should be a pleasure listening to her vorts and mayses from zadikim. So does anybody know where she holds her Tishen?

74

 May 22, 2009 at 08:31 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #62  
Aliza Hausman Says:

Where to begin? As a convert (an Orthodox convert since we know someone of you stopped reading as soon as you read 'convert' and some of you stopped reading even when I included Orthodox), I am disgusted with some of the things I read that supposed 'good frum yidden' have written about converts. Is it any wonder that people aren't running towards Orthodox Judaism in droves?

As for the ugly things being said about other Jews...yes, because even if you don't know how they practice Judaism, they are still Jewish, well...we're certainly not going to interest them in our way of life by treating them like the gum that sticks to the sidewalk and gets stuck to our shoes. In fact, most of the disgusting posts here only prove the worst that is being said about Orthodox Jews in other circles.

And for the stupid, closeminded, narrowminded things being said about people of other races, yes, including Jews of other races...I don't even know what to say. Can I say that I am disgusted too many times? There are many Jews of color that are not converts. On a regular basis, we are treated like crap in the Jewish community (Reform, Conservative AND Orthodox). Excuse me, to sum this all up, is the point that Judaism is about learning how to hate people? I must have missed that in the conversion process.

Perhaps, some of you should read MY blog and learn something. Not that I want you posting your disgusting little comments there, your disgusting little ANONYMOUS comments that you can't even add your name to...because you know they are disgusting!

Aliza, just a small word of advice. One should never reveal one is a convert in the Orthodox Jewish Community, you open yourself up to being labeled and ostracized. Even if one is plainly so. It is just not prudent. I hear your frustration and disgust with people's behavior on these blogs (the only forum where they are free to vent their true feelings anonymously) so isn't that proof enough that a convert should practice a "don't ask, don't tell policy"? Similar to what Clinton did for the homosexuals in the military. I mean absolutely no offense to you, but if you admit to converting, then you open the door for more prying questions, asked in the name of "friendship". In a perfect world this should not have to happen, but, do we live in a perfect world?

75

 May 22, 2009 at 09:11 AM Authentic Jew Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

If we would accept more women like her in our religion then the rate of anti-semitisem would be much lower.

Sorry but history proves you wrong. The Nazis became popular in "enlightened" Germany not in the backwards shtetl, Arabs throughout the Far East (Azerbaijan, Yemen, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Morocco, Iran, Iraq etc.) lived well with Yidden until there was a modern "Medina", the Catholic Church didnt mess with the Yidden in Spain, Portugal and England until those communities became modern (frei).

It may not make sense to your pea brain that Hashem protects us as long as we fanatically stick to the Torah and ALL it's principals, so the Jewish nation will keep suffering.

One day we will figure it out.

76

 May 22, 2009 at 09:01 AM KRG Says:

Also, Yoselle, I hope you realize how racist your comment is, even if you don't intend for it to be. I wish Vos Iz Neias would screen this comments a little better and not allow such intolerance.

77

 May 22, 2009 at 10:16 AM jimmy37 Says:

If you read the article carefully, you see the built-in bias that the media has for blacks and Jews. If this woman truly considers herself Jewish, she should no longer allow anyone to call her African-American. This is a code words used to describe past discrimination and provide an excuse for failure. Disregarding the validity of her conversion, she is either an American Jewish or Jewish American.

78

 May 22, 2009 at 09:55 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #62  
Aliza Hausman Says:

Where to begin? As a convert (an Orthodox convert since we know someone of you stopped reading as soon as you read 'convert' and some of you stopped reading even when I included Orthodox), I am disgusted with some of the things I read that supposed 'good frum yidden' have written about converts. Is it any wonder that people aren't running towards Orthodox Judaism in droves?

As for the ugly things being said about other Jews...yes, because even if you don't know how they practice Judaism, they are still Jewish, well...we're certainly not going to interest them in our way of life by treating them like the gum that sticks to the sidewalk and gets stuck to our shoes. In fact, most of the disgusting posts here only prove the worst that is being said about Orthodox Jews in other circles.

And for the stupid, closeminded, narrowminded things being said about people of other races, yes, including Jews of other races...I don't even know what to say. Can I say that I am disgusted too many times? There are many Jews of color that are not converts. On a regular basis, we are treated like crap in the Jewish community (Reform, Conservative AND Orthodox). Excuse me, to sum this all up, is the point that Judaism is about learning how to hate people? I must have missed that in the conversion process.

Perhaps, some of you should read MY blog and learn something. Not that I want you posting your disgusting little comments there, your disgusting little ANONYMOUS comments that you can't even add your name to...because you know they are disgusting!

Aliza, I am surprised that you are treated this way. Jews by choice are more Jewish, not less Jewish than those who are just born into Judaism. Perhaps you might get some inspiration from reading the stories of Christian clergy who converted to orthodox Judaism. Do a Google search on Asher Wade, Gavriel Sanders, John Hove, Shlomo Ben Avraham Brunell, John David Scalamonti, and Moshe Hattori.
Jews are instructed to love those who converted to Judaism.

I can understand the bad feelings here for those who had a reform conversion, as many here view reform Judaism as a threat to the survival of traditional orthodox Judaism. Reform Judaism is too easy, and too tempting for many. I have no idea why reform Judaism embraces intermarriage, and why they consider children of a Jewish father but not a Jewish mother as being Jewish.

79

 May 22, 2009 at 09:52 AM berel Says:

#62 you have to realize there are all kind s of people posting, smart not smart unlearned, intelligent in between as a whole collection of human beings are so if you are going to take all posting to heart you shouldnt read them you'll have c'v heart failure. Remember, you probably have your circle of close good freinds rebbes ,rebbetzins to help guide you and those should be your examples, not what every tom dick or harry kook posts here

80

 May 22, 2009 at 10:23 AM PMO Says:

Reply to #74  
Anonymous Says:

Aliza, just a small word of advice. One should never reveal one is a convert in the Orthodox Jewish Community, you open yourself up to being labeled and ostracized. Even if one is plainly so. It is just not prudent. I hear your frustration and disgust with people's behavior on these blogs (the only forum where they are free to vent their true feelings anonymously) so isn't that proof enough that a convert should practice a "don't ask, don't tell policy"? Similar to what Clinton did for the homosexuals in the military. I mean absolutely no offense to you, but if you admit to converting, then you open the door for more prying questions, asked in the name of "friendship". In a perfect world this should not have to happen, but, do we live in a perfect world?

As I've written about before, I am also a geir (the result of adoption as an infant). Maybe it is different for those of us who grew up in a frum home, as opposed to those who came along later in life, but I have always been open about it and I have never seen anything negative from anyone. Maybe they talk behind my back... maybe not. A person should never be afraid of who they are, or to be honest about who they are. Being an adoptee and a geir IS part of who I am. It is not something I'm ashamed of, or have any negative emotions about. My parents adopted me and brought me close to H", as all of our parents did. I consider myself fortunate that I ended up on this path as opposed to C"V a goyishe life.

I also consider myself fortunate to have parents who saw children in need and decided to adopt. The chessed of my parents, and my gratitude toward them are not something I would hide... I want everyone to know what kind of people my parents are.

As for those who would look down on me for it, or would speak loshon hora about me for it.... that is something they will have to reconcile with H" when the time comes.

As a side note, your "don't ask, don't tell" comparison is extremely insulting. To say that a geir should hide their "status" from everyone else in the same way that homosexuals do in the military is a disgusting comparison, and just for even bringing the two ideas to the same level, you owe Aliza an apology.

81

 May 22, 2009 at 08:52 AM Anonymous Says:

I feel so sorry for this woman. She has a deeply felt interest in Hashem and his Torah and she has followed a lie laid down by the Con/Reformers. The actual reality is that she is halachically non-Jewish leading a group of Jews and Gentiles.

The fact that a big deal is made over her skin pigmentation by the people in the temple raises a question... did the temple hire her as clergy for her leadership or the fact that that they wanted to proove a point because she is the first black woman clergyperson in the Con/Reform movement. In other words to proove they are not racist against black women they davka hired a black woman as clergy. What about her leadership skills? learning? They just reduced this poor woman to the amount of pigmentation in her skin and her genitalia as a hiring prerequisite.

Does anyone see the irony in this?





82

 May 22, 2009 at 08:48 AM Anonymous Says:

I wish everyone would quit it with these "She's not even Jewish" comments. She's not ORTHODOX, is what you're saying - and that's fine. She clearly doesn't WANT to be. Just because Orthodox Judaism refuses to accept Reform conversion doesn't mean that her Reform conversion is not valid for her to be REFORM JEWISH. Who are the Orthodox to tell us what is and is not acceptable for our denomination? I'm sorry, did someone tell you you were the be-all and end-all of Judaism? Get over yourselves.

83

 May 22, 2009 at 10:43 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #78  
Anonymous Says:

Aliza, I am surprised that you are treated this way. Jews by choice are more Jewish, not less Jewish than those who are just born into Judaism. Perhaps you might get some inspiration from reading the stories of Christian clergy who converted to orthodox Judaism. Do a Google search on Asher Wade, Gavriel Sanders, John Hove, Shlomo Ben Avraham Brunell, John David Scalamonti, and Moshe Hattori.
Jews are instructed to love those who converted to Judaism.

I can understand the bad feelings here for those who had a reform conversion, as many here view reform Judaism as a threat to the survival of traditional orthodox Judaism. Reform Judaism is too easy, and too tempting for many. I have no idea why reform Judaism embraces intermarriage, and why they consider children of a Jewish father but not a Jewish mother as being Jewish.

You have your facts wrong. They do consider a child of a Jewish mother as being Jewish. Some also consider the child of a jewish father as jewish - just like patrileneal descent for Kohanim. The vast majority of reform rabbis will not perform intermarriage wedding ceremonies.

84

 May 22, 2009 at 08:41 AM Rebbitzin Says:

Moshe married a black women, but she wasn't called Rebbitzin. But then again, until Vashti, all the kings' wives were not either called Malka.

85

 May 22, 2009 at 08:39 AM KRG Says:

A lot of disgusting, prejudicial & offensive comments about Reform Judaism from readers. You should be ashamed of yourselves. Practice your religion and leave us alone, if you don't like us. We don't talk badly about you for the ways you choose to worship - why do you need to constantly talk down on ours? Comments like these only tear the Jews as a whole apart, never bring them together. But I guess we're not even Jewish, right? Go find some Christians to pick on, or some atheists. Leave Reform Jews alone -w e think you're wacky, too. "Orthodox Jews have the highest respect for women and they play the most important role to raise a true Torah Jewish family."??? Sounds exactly like the kind of chauvinistic, anti-feminism denomination I want to be associated with. Yuck.


86

 May 22, 2009 at 11:16 AM tzoorba Says:

Reply to #85  
KRG Says:

A lot of disgusting, prejudicial & offensive comments about Reform Judaism from readers. You should be ashamed of yourselves. Practice your religion and leave us alone, if you don't like us. We don't talk badly about you for the ways you choose to worship - why do you need to constantly talk down on ours? Comments like these only tear the Jews as a whole apart, never bring them together. But I guess we're not even Jewish, right? Go find some Christians to pick on, or some atheists. Leave Reform Jews alone -w e think you're wacky, too. "Orthodox Jews have the highest respect for women and they play the most important role to raise a true Torah Jewish family."??? Sounds exactly like the kind of chauvinistic, anti-feminism denomination I want to be associated with. Yuck.


We are not talking down to you. We believe in true Judaism and as such want to make sure that sincere Jews are not misled to follow false doctrines such as the corruption of Judaism known as Reform Judaism.

There is no dislike of Jews mistakenly practicing Reform implies. We just feel that they have made a mistake in choosig this path. No one said you are not Jewish unless you weren't and were converted in a Reform ceremony.

I am sorry if we can't conform to your pro feminist, multi culti and PC point of view but aren't you supposed to be tolerant of our views just as you want us to be?

87

 May 22, 2009 at 11:13 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #83  
Anonymous Says:

You have your facts wrong. They do consider a child of a Jewish mother as being Jewish. Some also consider the child of a jewish father as jewish - just like patrileneal descent for Kohanim. The vast majority of reform rabbis will not perform intermarriage wedding ceremonies.

I guess I wrote the sentence in an ambiguous manner. It should have read that the reform consider a child Jewish when just his father is Jewish and his mother isn't Jewish.

88

 May 22, 2009 at 11:13 AM Bulldog Says:

If you think orthodox Jews are not prejudiced against African Americans and Latinos, you are kidding yourselves. Tell that to the editor of this website because I have experienced this personally time and time again. It is about fear and class combined in realty. To the new rabbi, best wishes! Judaism can use more qualified people like her!

89

 May 22, 2009 at 11:10 AM tzoorba Says:

Reply to #82  
Anonymous Says:

I wish everyone would quit it with these "She's not even Jewish" comments. She's not ORTHODOX, is what you're saying - and that's fine. She clearly doesn't WANT to be. Just because Orthodox Judaism refuses to accept Reform conversion doesn't mean that her Reform conversion is not valid for her to be REFORM JEWISH. Who are the Orthodox to tell us what is and is not acceptable for our denomination? I'm sorry, did someone tell you you were the be-all and end-all of Judaism? Get over yourselves.

I am sorry but there is only one Judaism and that is the one that G-d gave the Jewish people with the written and oral Torah which follows all the commandments and Rabbinic laws.

Anything else is a cheap, counterfeit knock off pandering to the latent true Jewish feelings burning in the souls of the misguided Jews following that false path.

G-d has defined what valid conversion is and central to it is acceptance of the written and oral law as interpreted by true Torah sages. Conversion performed any other way is a sham and the person remains a non Jew.

You can delude yourself any way you like but the theory of relativity doesn't apply to Judaism. It's not whatever you fell like you want it to be.

This is the be all and end all of Judaism and it has nothing to do with elitism.

90

 May 22, 2009 at 11:07 AM Shulamit Says:

Reply to #78  
Anonymous Says:

Aliza, I am surprised that you are treated this way. Jews by choice are more Jewish, not less Jewish than those who are just born into Judaism. Perhaps you might get some inspiration from reading the stories of Christian clergy who converted to orthodox Judaism. Do a Google search on Asher Wade, Gavriel Sanders, John Hove, Shlomo Ben Avraham Brunell, John David Scalamonti, and Moshe Hattori.
Jews are instructed to love those who converted to Judaism.

I can understand the bad feelings here for those who had a reform conversion, as many here view reform Judaism as a threat to the survival of traditional orthodox Judaism. Reform Judaism is too easy, and too tempting for many. I have no idea why reform Judaism embraces intermarriage, and why they consider children of a Jewish father but not a Jewish mother as being Jewish.

The sad truth is that even though we are instructed to love the converts, many people don't. I don't know how many times I've heard snide comments about this ger or that giores from "frum" Jews. One person told me outright that she just doesn't trust converts because she doesn't know if they're sincere in their Judaism.

At the same time, it's amazing how many gerei tzedek I know! And all of them converted because they were interested in Torah and a Torah way of life, not because of dating/marriage.

One correction to your comment on lineage: Reform says if either parent is Jewish, the child is Jewish, not just a Jewish father. That allows them to say if the couple is an intermarried one, any child of that marriage is Jewish, regardless of which parent is Jewish.

91

 May 22, 2009 at 12:05 PM berel Says:

#82 we dont tell you how to conduct your 'religion'' just like we dont tell a christian...if you have your own way of observing something its your own thing. the fundemantals of judaism is: belief of relavation on har sini, giving the torah written and oral which is expounded in shas S'U.` Now, if youre jewish im sure somewhere down your lineage you had grand,or greatgrand parents who abided by this fundemental ...so who changed it for you ,was there a new relevation? no, it started with the the 'enlighten' movement who rejected this priciple..actually it started with minior things but thats how things snowball, you mock a little hanhaga, mitzvah there is no boundaries..so please read the other posters here and other article ('reform clergy rebukes rabbi lamm ') ...reform movements dont belive in the existance of diety were not talking of an individual who might. So one day you'll decide baseball can be played with 4 innings, 5 players, 2 bases and its THE baseball game , my way of playing baseball.i dont know maybe you can do it but judaism is not like that .the gemmorah sanhedrin says even one says 'i believe in the whole torah is from sinai except for 1 letter' he is considered a heretic so what should we consider the movements , Reform and down, who dont belive in this whole concept.

92

 May 22, 2009 at 12:10 PM berel Says:

#90 please dont be silly , reform rabbis say the wohle torah is not binding , dietary laws a mockery, tahares hamishpachs,shabbos etc, etc.so thats what the issue is , not just parentel lineage

93

 May 22, 2009 at 12:11 PM PMO Says:

Reply to #82  
Anonymous Says:

I wish everyone would quit it with these "She's not even Jewish" comments. She's not ORTHODOX, is what you're saying - and that's fine. She clearly doesn't WANT to be. Just because Orthodox Judaism refuses to accept Reform conversion doesn't mean that her Reform conversion is not valid for her to be REFORM JEWISH. Who are the Orthodox to tell us what is and is not acceptable for our denomination? I'm sorry, did someone tell you you were the be-all and end-all of Judaism? Get over yourselves.

It is not meant to be insulting to Reform. It is pointing out that Torah is very clear about converts. For some reason, the reform movement has chose to completely ignore the laws of H" in order to make up their own rules.

It is not like arguments regarding customs or whether one should only eat cholov yisroel. It is not about whether one is being more stringent than another. The laws of conversion and who is or is not considered a yid was CLEARLY spelled out at Sinai. This is not an issue of interpretation. It is an issue of whether you believe that the laws of the Torah are from H" or you don't. If you do, you are obligated to follow them. If you don't, you are not practicing Judiaism... you are just going through the motions.

I'm sorry if you are a member of this group, but realize that it is not Judaisim as outlined in Torah shebichsav or shebaal peh. H" specifically instructs us to never accept this kind of teaching as valid.

94

 May 22, 2009 at 12:26 PM berel Says:

#82 ..remember g-d didnt mention on har sinai a choice menu 'i have an orthodox band, reform brand, conservetive brand, christian brand, reconstructionist brand. just choose what ever you like and feel comfortable with and everything will be fine and dandy.

95

 May 22, 2009 at 12:20 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #55  
Anonymous Says:

I'm really surprised...so many of you are missing the point. She can't be an orthodox Rabbi. I can't be a Rabbi. We're women! Al pi Halacha (do I really have to remind you men?) women cannot be Rabbis.

Mind you, it is a shame. At least we'd have some "I know what you mean" & RESPECT, often sadly lacking, if women could pasken shailohs!

this has nothing to do with Gerus. It has everything to do with Halacha. Othodox gerus or not, she will never be a Rabbi!

Women can certainly pasken shaylos, if they know the halacha.

96

 May 22, 2009 at 12:32 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #62  
Aliza Hausman Says:

Where to begin? As a convert (an Orthodox convert since we know someone of you stopped reading as soon as you read 'convert' and some of you stopped reading even when I included Orthodox), I am disgusted with some of the things I read that supposed 'good frum yidden' have written about converts. Is it any wonder that people aren't running towards Orthodox Judaism in droves?

As for the ugly things being said about other Jews...yes, because even if you don't know how they practice Judaism, they are still Jewish, well...we're certainly not going to interest them in our way of life by treating them like the gum that sticks to the sidewalk and gets stuck to our shoes. In fact, most of the disgusting posts here only prove the worst that is being said about Orthodox Jews in other circles.

And for the stupid, closeminded, narrowminded things being said about people of other races, yes, including Jews of other races...I don't even know what to say. Can I say that I am disgusted too many times? There are many Jews of color that are not converts. On a regular basis, we are treated like crap in the Jewish community (Reform, Conservative AND Orthodox). Excuse me, to sum this all up, is the point that Judaism is about learning how to hate people? I must have missed that in the conversion process.

Perhaps, some of you should read MY blog and learn something. Not that I want you posting your disgusting little comments there, your disgusting little ANONYMOUS comments that you can't even add your name to...because you know they are disgusting!

I don't believe a word you have written, for this reason. Right off the bat, you lash out at the "stupid, closeminded, narrowminded things being said about people of other races". What exactly are you referring to? There has not been a single negative comment on this thread about "people of other races". By complaining about that you have exposed your own paranoia, and the fact that you are determined to see offense even where none exists, because you carry it around in your own mind.

Nor has anything ugly been said about "other Jews". Plenty of ugly things have been said about the ugly practises some Jews have, but that is exactly as it should be. It's OK to say ugly things about ponzi schemers and child molesters and those nutcases who collaborate with the Arabs and Iranians, but not about the heretical movements that pretend to be legitimate forms of Judaism?

Based on your performance here I have no interest in reading your blog, where I'm sure I'll be subjected to your victim mentality and sense of grievance at the world for not being exactly as you wish it to be.

97

 May 22, 2009 at 01:00 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #84  
Rebbitzin Says:

Moshe married a black women, but she wasn't called Rebbitzin. But then again, until Vashti, all the kings' wives were not either called Malka.

Moshe did not marry a black woman. Rashi is written for even a five-year-old to understand.

98

 May 22, 2009 at 12:59 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #83  
Anonymous Says:

You have your facts wrong. They do consider a child of a Jewish mother as being Jewish. Some also consider the child of a jewish father as jewish - just like patrileneal descent for Kohanim. The vast majority of reform rabbis will not perform intermarriage wedding ceremonies.

How are his facts wrong? He wrote "they consider children of a Jewish father but not a Jewish mother as being Jewish", and you just confirmed that it is so! So what is your complaint? As for how many reform rabbis will perform intermarriages, so what? They still accept the marriages as valid, and as a valid choice for the couple to make.

99

 May 22, 2009 at 12:55 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #82  
Anonymous Says:

I wish everyone would quit it with these "She's not even Jewish" comments. She's not ORTHODOX, is what you're saying - and that's fine. She clearly doesn't WANT to be. Just because Orthodox Judaism refuses to accept Reform conversion doesn't mean that her Reform conversion is not valid for her to be REFORM JEWISH. Who are the Orthodox to tell us what is and is not acceptable for our denomination? I'm sorry, did someone tell you you were the be-all and end-all of Judaism? Get over yourselves.

Jewish is not a matter of opinion, it is an objective fact. There are no "denominations" in Judaism. A person is either Jewish or not, just as a person is either a USA citizen or not. Jews are a nation, not a religious community; citizens of our nation are either born or naturalised, and naturalisation has rules which must be followed exactly. If I were to go to China and set up shop performing USA naturalisations, it wouldn't matter how American my clients would feel, or how well they did on my tests, they would still remain Chinese and not Americans. And if I were to claim that they may not be "orthodox Americans" but they are valid "reform Americans", you'd be the first to laugh at the absurdity. So how is that different from your phony conversion mills?

100

 May 22, 2009 at 12:47 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #73  
Yoselle Says:

I would enjoy her Tish on shaboss. The music I guess would be soul, the beat would be jazz. It should be a pleasure listening to her vorts and mayses from zadikim. So does anybody know where she holds her Tishen?

Her cooking is bishul akum, and there's no reason to suppose she keeps kosher either. Her religion doesn't require it, after all.

101

 May 22, 2009 at 12:45 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #70  
Anonymous Says:

Why are you so terrified of an orthodox yid who has the guts to take a different perspective from the herd? What a revealing statement that actually exposes your insecurities and demons.

He is not an orthodox yid, and I doubt that he's a yid at all.

102

 May 22, 2009 at 12:44 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #67  
Charlie Hall Says:

Your statement is not exactly correct from either the halachic or the historical perspective. Rabbi Barry Freundel addressed this a number of years ago and his essay is still on the Kesher Israel web site. Basically, separtist movements don't cease to be Jewish until the majority of members are no longer halachic Jews and they stop considering themselves to be a Jewish movement. Neither of those conditions apply to today's Reform movement. For example, that happened with Christianity, but did not happen with the Karaites, and hasn't happened to Reform. That doesn't mean we agree with that they say or do, but if a Reform Rabbi puts on tefillin or keeps Shabat, it matters!

Rabbi Freundel is entitled to his opinion. I have no obligation to agree with it. If a Reform rabbi who happens to be Jewish puts on tefillin or keeps Shabbat of course it matters, just as if a Catholic archbishop who happens to be Jewish does the same. But that doesn't make the Reform movement any more Jewish than the Catholic "movement".

103

 May 22, 2009 at 12:40 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #66  
Charlie Hall Says:

The Reform movement has over a million dues paying members in the US; the overwhelming majority of whom are halachically Jewish.

(This may not be true a generation from now, but those are the facts on the ground today.)

I see no reason to believe that.

104

 May 22, 2009 at 12:39 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #64  
Charlie Hall Says:

It is a machloket poskim as to whether a ger or a woman may serve in a leadership position, and as to what even constitutes a leadership position that might be a problem. There are male converts who have become Orthodox rabbis, and female converts who work as teachers.

I wrote "position of authority over Jews"; why did you change that to "leadership position"? Did I ever say mention that or bring it up? What positions are included is a matter for debate, as is the possibility of exceptions in times of need, such as when Shmaya and Avtalyon became heads of the Sanhedrin. There is certainly nothing wrong with a ger or a woman receiving "yoreh yoreh", or being a teacher; neither of those is a position of authority over Jews. But one thing is certain: whatever position a ger can take, a woman can also take; the issue is the same, so whatever works to justify one will equally justify the other. And conversely, whatever position you hold a woman can NOT take, a ger is equally disqualified for.

105

 May 22, 2009 at 12:52 PM dont apologize for truth Says:

Reply to #89  
tzoorba Says:

I am sorry but there is only one Judaism and that is the one that G-d gave the Jewish people with the written and oral Torah which follows all the commandments and Rabbinic laws.

Anything else is a cheap, counterfeit knock off pandering to the latent true Jewish feelings burning in the souls of the misguided Jews following that false path.

G-d has defined what valid conversion is and central to it is acceptance of the written and oral law as interpreted by true Torah sages. Conversion performed any other way is a sham and the person remains a non Jew.

You can delude yourself any way you like but the theory of relativity doesn't apply to Judaism. It's not whatever you fell like you want it to be.

This is the be all and end all of Judaism and it has nothing to do with elitism.

“ I am sorry but there is only one Judaism and that is the one that G-d gave the Jewish people with the written and oral Torah which follows all the commandments and Rabbinic laws."

no need to apologize for the truth of yiddishkeit. if reform folks dont want to be 'insulted' by the comments, they can stop calling it 'reform judaism', and just make a clean break, and call it a new religion ('reformism' or something else)

106

 May 22, 2009 at 02:17 PM berel Says:

to all gerim, you have a special neshame...the gemorah ketubes (?) 'ger shnisgayer kekuten shenolad' a convert is like a newborn. the alshech hakodosh (parshes kedoshim 19 posuk 33 {page 141 row 1,in the 5 chlakim print} ) explains why ,ill go directly to english translation 'when he converts he gets from heaven a new soul from under the 'wings of the shechina'!! his loshon '....mitachas kanfei hashechina, nimtza shehu noled mamesh' pile piloim!, like the magid of yerushualayim, ztvk'l,would say.

107

 May 22, 2009 at 01:51 PM shmuel Says:

#97 milhouse , 'sefosayim yishak mayshiv devorim nechoinim' you really say it the way it is..so even we fought regarding ball, shabbos food.. 'es vohav beseseefo' regarding moshe rabbainu's tziporah being black, see even ezra there 'kushish usually refers to ethiopia whaerehe was 40 years (mayum loaz) i mean where was between 18(?) to 80 years

108

 May 22, 2009 at 02:43 PM berel Says:

#90.."the sad truth..' well its the 'truth' about other mitzvos , dont alot of people talk lashan horah, say a little lie here and there, dont bench sometime with kavanah etc..so thats the constant battle with the yetzer horah, so what are you trying to say, nobody should convert?

109

 May 22, 2009 at 02:29 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #71  
Tzoorba Says:

You seem to have a big chip on your shoulder.

People aren't all running from Orthodox Judaism. The sincere people who seek the truth are running to Orthodox Judaism.

Of course there are some misguided individuals who have a problem with any convert but the vast majority of even the commenters here did not express such attitudes.

Orthodox Jews have every right and duty to stand up against those falsifiers and counterfeiters of our holy way of life. We are obligated to say the truth despite the lack of political correctness involved. This in no way is a reflection of disdain for the poor, misguided adherents of Reform that are Jewish souls that have lost their way. No one here arguing against Reform does not consider a Reform Jew their brother/sister.

If we alienate some people because we paint the true picture of Reform, that's too bad because maintaining the truth of Judaism is more important than attracting disaffected Jews by false doctrines.

Being mikarev Jews is NOT the biggest mitzva in the Torah. Not falsifying Yiddishkeit comes ahead of it.

I don't know what your beef is about Orthodox Jews because some nice Orthodox boy apparently was open minded enough to marry you. You should work on your Hakoras Hatov rather than focus on the negatives.

It is obvious that you believe that your interpretation of orthodoxy is the right way and the only way, but let me remind you that even in the orthodox community, you have certain segments that would judge you and say you are not frum enough and you will go straight to hell. Them you have Chasidic Jews, who would say modern orthodox and even orthodox is not sufficient, then you have Satmer who would go a step further and say if you support Israel or take money from the madina or vote even in municipal election you will go to hell. Then you have the Neturei Karta who will claim that Satmer is not sufficiently anti Zionist, therefore, only a few hundred Jews will eventually go to heaven. Therefore, I do leave the judgment who is a good Jew, to God not an other human being.

110

 May 22, 2009 at 03:00 PM tzoorba Says:

Reply to #109  
Anonymous Says:

It is obvious that you believe that your interpretation of orthodoxy is the right way and the only way, but let me remind you that even in the orthodox community, you have certain segments that would judge you and say you are not frum enough and you will go straight to hell. Them you have Chasidic Jews, who would say modern orthodox and even orthodox is not sufficient, then you have Satmer who would go a step further and say if you support Israel or take money from the madina or vote even in municipal election you will go to hell. Then you have the Neturei Karta who will claim that Satmer is not sufficiently anti Zionist, therefore, only a few hundred Jews will eventually go to heaven. Therefore, I do leave the judgment who is a good Jew, to God not an other human being.

This is not at all an issue of judging Jews but rather determining what is a valid expression of Judaism and what is not. It also is an issue of what is a valid conversion and what is not.

All the different Orthodox groups have varying opinions about the optimum way to observe Orthodox Judaism. In general, however, any right thinking members of each group will admit that members of the other Orthodox groups are righteous people and will merit the world to come.

111

 May 22, 2009 at 04:26 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #110  
tzoorba Says:

This is not at all an issue of judging Jews but rather determining what is a valid expression of Judaism and what is not. It also is an issue of what is a valid conversion and what is not.

All the different Orthodox groups have varying opinions about the optimum way to observe Orthodox Judaism. In general, however, any right thinking members of each group will admit that members of the other Orthodox groups are righteous people and will merit the world to come.

“This is not at all an issue of judging Jews but rather determining what is a valid expression of Judaism and what is not.”

No matter how you shape your argument, if you try to determine the validly of a point whatever the point is, at the end of the day your examining will lead you to make a judgment one way or another.

“It also is an issue of what is a valid conversion and what is not.”

Again how do you ascertain what method was used and who actually officiated at the conversion maybe indeed she went to the Mikva as matter of fact a segment of the rabies in the reform movement who graduated in the modern orthodox schools.

“All the different Orthodox groups have varying opinions about the optimum way to observe Orthodox Judaism. In general, however, any right thinking members of each group will admit that members of the other Orthodox groups are righteous people and will merit the world to come.”

I remember in the last forty years numerous pronouncements that if you do this or that you will go to hell, are you telling us that all theses declarations were just for show, you tell us.


112

 May 22, 2009 at 03:57 PM berel Says:

#85 see #91. now if your mother isnt jewish your not either so what do want, we're not tearing jews apart . if your mother is jewish we're pointing out the fallcay of your ways.it just beats me how childish you are .did we say dont dont practice what you practice, although one of the 613 is rebuking sinners? so you want to take away my free speech ?

113

 May 22, 2009 at 03:43 PM itzik Says:

# 109 are you for real? where did you take that from..does a chasid consider a litvishe or a litvishe consider a chassids shita that it will take him to hell, or the teyere yidden of rav breyeurs kehilla consider litveishe or chssidishe yidden potential hell members??you know what , i'd rather not say it

114

 May 22, 2009 at 03:34 PM chaim Says:

#109 what your saying is ridiculous..its one the the retorts thats abi gret...mihagim , different levish, eating or not eating kneidel on pesach, in not the same as rejecting the principle stated in #91 ..some will be meikel what other are machmir (if he has a ehrliche yirai shomayim rov to rely on). satmar doesnt say if your with zionist youll go to hell this yelling back and forth is abi geret, out of heated debate .MO is a shtikel problem they have what we undersatand is assur deoirisae..mixed swimming, besides gilu aroious, what about histaklus and other issurim it causes, there are a few other things, ladies wearing pants,yes youll find a heter ..its special for ladies ...wonder why the holy tzaddinim of all chlakim in all generations didt use this heter...and psaht is they wear pants, not beause they learned 'even ezer' and found a heter, no, the pants is worn becuse of al 'little' assimilation ..and when it was pointed out ,oh, someone managed to find a 'bach' Chassidim go in this levish because of 'lo shinu malbushom'..whats your excuse? ok, you say your going among goyim, your afraid, but who is observing 'toras imaycha' more ? . of course there are different madreigos in avoda hashem and a holy tzaddik is 'more holier than thou' then a marginal orthodox and so is everything in between. but the yesod ,the fundemetal of judaism they believe and if some have sefeikos on that its called 'hirrur minos'

115

 May 22, 2009 at 05:40 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #109  
Anonymous Says:

It is obvious that you believe that your interpretation of orthodoxy is the right way and the only way, but let me remind you that even in the orthodox community, you have certain segments that would judge you and say you are not frum enough and you will go straight to hell. Them you have Chasidic Jews, who would say modern orthodox and even orthodox is not sufficient, then you have Satmer who would go a step further and say if you support Israel or take money from the madina or vote even in municipal election you will go to hell. Then you have the Neturei Karta who will claim that Satmer is not sufficiently anti Zionist, therefore, only a few hundred Jews will eventually go to heaven. Therefore, I do leave the judgment who is a good Jew, to God not an other human being.

It's not a question of my interpretation of orthodoxy or yours. There are many interpretations of orthodoxy, and nobody's questioning any of them. All orthodox will accept the validity of legal acts done by those who follow different streams within orthodoxy. It's got nothing to do with going to heaven, either. Satmar may not like certain aspects of the way Lubavitch think or behave, but they will not hesitate to count them in a minyan, to give them tzedokoh, or to recognise their gittin and giyurim, and vice versa. That's because they're all engaged in the same enterprise, trying to follow the Torah as best they can.

But the non-orthodox "movements" aren't offering interpretations of orthodoxy; they're clearly NOT orthodox, and thus not valid at all. They are not even trying to follow the Torah; on the contrary, they reject its divine authorship and thus its authority. They don't believe the Torah is binding on anybody, they don't believe in the fundamental doctrines that define Judaism, and in fact their religion has less in common with Judaism than does Xianity. These aren't nuances of interpretation.

Once we both accept that God Himself commanded us not to eat anything that isn't kosher, and that we have no right to disobey Him, we can argue over whether a particular fish is kosher or treif, and provided we each believe in good faith that our interpretation is what God meant, and we each have valid proof for our positions, we're each entitled to follow our own view of the matter. But Reform comes along and say it doesn't matter whether it's kosher or treif, we have the right to eat whatever we like. And Conservative comes along and says the Torah is up to us to interpret however we like, God didn't write it anyway, so if we like we can call the fish kosher and then eat it. That's why they're outside the range of acceptable viewpoints within Judaism.

116

 May 22, 2009 at 05:43 PM tzoorba Says:

Reply to #111  
Anonymous Says:

“This is not at all an issue of judging Jews but rather determining what is a valid expression of Judaism and what is not.”

No matter how you shape your argument, if you try to determine the validly of a point whatever the point is, at the end of the day your examining will lead you to make a judgment one way or another.

“It also is an issue of what is a valid conversion and what is not.”

Again how do you ascertain what method was used and who actually officiated at the conversion maybe indeed she went to the Mikva as matter of fact a segment of the rabies in the reform movement who graduated in the modern orthodox schools.

“All the different Orthodox groups have varying opinions about the optimum way to observe Orthodox Judaism. In general, however, any right thinking members of each group will admit that members of the other Orthodox groups are righteous people and will merit the world to come.”

I remember in the last forty years numerous pronouncements that if you do this or that you will go to hell, are you telling us that all theses declarations were just for show, you tell us.


We do not subscribe to the point of view that every type of viewpoint is valid and no one can determine the truth. First we determine what the truth is. If a fallout of this is that certain people are wrong and you consider this judging, that's just too bad.

Even if we consider them wrong, that doesn't mean that we don't care about them and we hope that they find the truth and happiness in life.

Reform conversions even with going to the mikva are invalid because they don't accept the mitzvos since reform doesn't. The Reform Rabbis are also disqualified from forming the bais din necessary for kosher conversion.

Some members of the groups hold that the others are all wrong. I don't care about that. I do what I know is right by my study of the Torah and by following Torah authorities.

In my opinion, they all have valid points but my way is best, ;-).


117

 May 23, 2009 at 08:11 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #113  
itzik Says:

# 109 are you for real? where did you take that from..does a chasid consider a litvishe or a litvishe consider a chassids shita that it will take him to hell, or the teyere yidden of rav breyeurs kehilla consider litveishe or chssidishe yidden potential hell members??you know what , i'd rather not say it

To #113
It is apparent that you either did not study or purposely decided not to broach 18th century Jewish history, when the Chasidim and Misnagdem excommunicated each other on numerous occasions all the way up to Chorbon Europe, are we to believe that all that was only for show, when over a hundred rabbis sit-down to excommunicate a whole group of Jews and proclaim that you should not marry their children, or use them for minyen, and yes their wine is nasach. I know we learn in Talmud that twenty four thousand talumudam from R Akiba died in the Omer because of sinas chnon that is a direct result that they judged each other but guess what they were wrong R Akiba’s talumudam? Wow, that is a shocker and just maybe Chorbon Europe was as a direct result of the machlokes between the Chasidim and Misnagdem, let God do the Judging.

118

 May 23, 2009 at 03:36 PM Berl Says:

It all boils down to 2 main questions
#1 was she mekabel to be mekayem all the mitzvos of the Torah? (not pick and chose, and that includes all of the 13 principles of faith as set down by the Ramba"m)
#2 was this done before a legitimate bais din of shomrei torah umitzvos who are mumchim in hilchos geirus?
if one of the 2 answers is NO then she is still a bona fide certified shiksa!
If she does not fulfil these requirements that her conversion is as valid as dunking a chicken into a pot of soup and saying that it is now fish!

119

 May 23, 2009 at 08:30 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #114  
chaim Says:

#109 what your saying is ridiculous..its one the the retorts thats abi gret...mihagim , different levish, eating or not eating kneidel on pesach, in not the same as rejecting the principle stated in #91 ..some will be meikel what other are machmir (if he has a ehrliche yirai shomayim rov to rely on). satmar doesnt say if your with zionist youll go to hell this yelling back and forth is abi geret, out of heated debate .MO is a shtikel problem they have what we undersatand is assur deoirisae..mixed swimming, besides gilu aroious, what about histaklus and other issurim it causes, there are a few other things, ladies wearing pants,yes youll find a heter ..its special for ladies ...wonder why the holy tzaddinim of all chlakim in all generations didt use this heter...and psaht is they wear pants, not beause they learned 'even ezer' and found a heter, no, the pants is worn becuse of al 'little' assimilation ..and when it was pointed out ,oh, someone managed to find a 'bach' Chassidim go in this levish because of 'lo shinu malbushom'..whats your excuse? ok, you say your going among goyim, your afraid, but who is observing 'toras imaycha' more ? . of course there are different madreigos in avoda hashem and a holy tzaddik is 'more holier than thou' then a marginal orthodox and so is everything in between. but the yesod ,the fundemetal of judaism they believe and if some have sefeikos on that its called 'hirrur minos'

To #114
“satmar doesnt say if your with zionist youll go to hell this yelling back and forth is abi geret, out of heated debate…”

Please understand I am not talking down to you I don’t know what your background is and what studies you mastered, however it is clear to me that you never actually opened the Vayoel Moshe published in 1958 by Rebbe Yoel Teitelbaum Z’LT were he espouses his views, here is a direct quote
".it has been these Zionist groups that have attracted the Jewish people and have violated the Oath against establishing a Jewish entity before the arrival of the Messiah. It is because of the Zionists that six million Jews were killed”

and furthermore, look into Al Hageulah V'al Hatamurah published in 1968 only two weeks after the six day war, were Rebbe Yoel Teitelbaum Z’LT Writes that it is forbidden to show any support for the State of Israel even by just visiting the “Western Wall” and what about all the machlokes before Chorbon Europe, on one side the Agudath Yisroel and on the other side the Satmer, Grand Rabbi Chaim Elazar Spira, Munkacser Rebbe, author of Minchas Elozor, Isaac Breuer, Hillel Zeitlin, Aaron Shmuel Tamares Hayyim, where they actually excommunicated each other. It is not "abi geret" when kids yell at each other, them it would be abi geret. Therefore, I personally avoid taking any sides in any disagreements.

120

 May 23, 2009 at 08:55 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #80  
PMO Says:

As I've written about before, I am also a geir (the result of adoption as an infant). Maybe it is different for those of us who grew up in a frum home, as opposed to those who came along later in life, but I have always been open about it and I have never seen anything negative from anyone. Maybe they talk behind my back... maybe not. A person should never be afraid of who they are, or to be honest about who they are. Being an adoptee and a geir IS part of who I am. It is not something I'm ashamed of, or have any negative emotions about. My parents adopted me and brought me close to H", as all of our parents did. I consider myself fortunate that I ended up on this path as opposed to C"V a goyishe life.

I also consider myself fortunate to have parents who saw children in need and decided to adopt. The chessed of my parents, and my gratitude toward them are not something I would hide... I want everyone to know what kind of people my parents are.

As for those who would look down on me for it, or would speak loshon hora about me for it.... that is something they will have to reconcile with H" when the time comes.

As a side note, your "don't ask, don't tell" comparison is extremely insulting. To say that a geir should hide their "status" from everyone else in the same way that homosexuals do in the military is a disgusting comparison, and just for even bringing the two ideas to the same level, you owe Aliza an apology.

Darling, my piece of advice is the best she ever could have received and was not meant to insult. It is advice that I live in my own life. Aliza's problem is that she blogs about herself "Jewminicana" on a web site. Her life is no one's business and won't help her make shidduchim. You know I am right about the way Gerim are treated and it is not me who needs to make an apology.

121

 May 23, 2009 at 09:57 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #117  
Anonymous Says:

To #113
It is apparent that you either did not study or purposely decided not to broach 18th century Jewish history, when the Chasidim and Misnagdem excommunicated each other on numerous occasions all the way up to Chorbon Europe, are we to believe that all that was only for show, when over a hundred rabbis sit-down to excommunicate a whole group of Jews and proclaim that you should not marry their children, or use them for minyen, and yes their wine is nasach. I know we learn in Talmud that twenty four thousand talumudam from R Akiba died in the Omer because of sinas chnon that is a direct result that they judged each other but guess what they were wrong R Akiba’s talumudam? Wow, that is a shocker and just maybe Chorbon Europe was as a direct result of the machlokes between the Chasidim and Misnagdem, let God do the Judging.

Chasidim and Misnagdim did not excommunicate each other. Early in the history of chasidus, when its nature was not yet clear, some great chachomim were afraid they were another sect like the Sabbateans and the Frankists who ended up abandoning observance of mitzvos and engaging in ritual orgies and other blatant breaches of the Torah. Relying on false testimony, they made a terrible mistake and issued a cherem on the chasidim. The chasidim did not retaliate with a cherem of their own, even though they were halachically entitled to do so.

After a few generations had passed, and it was clear to everybody that chasidim had not abandoned orthodoxy, but were in fact more careful in mitzvos than anybody else, every person who had been a misnaged leshem shomayim realised that the opposition had been a mistake, and ceased to be misnagdim. R Chaim Brisker said that by his day there was no longer such a thing as a misnaged leshem shomayim, and those who remained opposed to chasidim were acting only for the sake of machlokes.

There can be no comparison of this to the movements that openly defy the Torah! Had chasidim really been like them, the cherem would have been justified.

122

 May 23, 2009 at 09:36 PM shaya Says:

#117 listen here mr isgnoramas .first how many times do the posters have to point out to you that pointing out how your desecrating the torah is not sinah. if a police will give you a ticket or arrest you for breaking a law youll yell at him 'hate 'hate 'you hate me'. dont be such a klotz.. next why do you lable it 'chinom' do you know the gemmorah states in psochim if someone is oiver a mitzvah, its a 'mitzvah lisnso" kol shken the wole torah, so its not chinom .when we have movements like yours who desecate the whole torah and bring a chorbon on klall yisroel you call it chinom'?but lemase we dont hate ,were just pointing out the error of your ways.and then we have posters who have the nerve to say we dont know which is the truth . what nerve, the truth is in the torah and 4 parts coded law .and if you dont believe it your not practicing judaism..and for pointing that out ,its hate??

123

 May 23, 2009 at 10:06 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #119  
Anonymous Says:

To #114
“satmar doesnt say if your with zionist youll go to hell this yelling back and forth is abi geret, out of heated debate…”

Please understand I am not talking down to you I don’t know what your background is and what studies you mastered, however it is clear to me that you never actually opened the Vayoel Moshe published in 1958 by Rebbe Yoel Teitelbaum Z’LT were he espouses his views, here is a direct quote
".it has been these Zionist groups that have attracted the Jewish people and have violated the Oath against establishing a Jewish entity before the arrival of the Messiah. It is because of the Zionists that six million Jews were killed”

and furthermore, look into Al Hageulah V'al Hatamurah published in 1968 only two weeks after the six day war, were Rebbe Yoel Teitelbaum Z’LT Writes that it is forbidden to show any support for the State of Israel even by just visiting the “Western Wall” and what about all the machlokes before Chorbon Europe, on one side the Agudath Yisroel and on the other side the Satmer, Grand Rabbi Chaim Elazar Spira, Munkacser Rebbe, author of Minchas Elozor, Isaac Breuer, Hillel Zeitlin, Aaron Shmuel Tamares Hayyim, where they actually excommunicated each other. It is not "abi geret" when kids yell at each other, them it would be abi geret. Therefore, I personally avoid taking any sides in any disagreements.

You're missing the point. No matter how strong his condemnation of Zionism, the Satmar Rebbe would not have rejected a ger who was converted by a Zionist beis din. He still accepted datiim-leumiim as kosher Jews, albeit greatly mistaken. He tried to give them mussar and to point out to them how they were violating the sholosh shevu'os, and the consequences the GEMORO says result from that; but he would still count them in a minyan, drink their wine, and accept their judicial acts. Because both Satmar and the datiim-leumiim are within the range of Orthodox Judaism. They all accept the same premises, and only differ in the conclusions they draw from them. But those who reject the premises are michutz lamachaneh.

124

 May 23, 2009 at 09:21 PM chaim Says:

#117 it shouldnt be a schocker to you that the chorben Europe came because of haskalah turned the middas hadin on klal yiroel and this was repeared by mantyholy tzddikim of thet generation and before. the holy chfet chaim among them,i heard myself from one of them. the holy sulener rebbe ztvk'l in 1972...and i cant forget how he stressed with his fingers 'the haskalah started form the heart of germany and thats where the gezeros chorbon come out of' so actually yidden like you bring the choron af on the klaall and the torah is full of these warnings,bechkosai, ki tavoh

125

 May 23, 2009 at 09:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #116  
tzoorba Says:

We do not subscribe to the point of view that every type of viewpoint is valid and no one can determine the truth. First we determine what the truth is. If a fallout of this is that certain people are wrong and you consider this judging, that's just too bad.

Even if we consider them wrong, that doesn't mean that we don't care about them and we hope that they find the truth and happiness in life.

Reform conversions even with going to the mikva are invalid because they don't accept the mitzvos since reform doesn't. The Reform Rabbis are also disqualified from forming the bais din necessary for kosher conversion.

Some members of the groups hold that the others are all wrong. I don't care about that. I do what I know is right by my study of the Torah and by following Torah authorities.

In my opinion, they all have valid points but my way is best, ;-).


To #116

We do not subscribe to the point of view that every type of viewpoint is valid and no one can determine the truth. First we determine what the truth is. If a fallout of this is that certain people are wrong and you consider this judging, that's just too bad.

Exactly my point “we” determine, the we is only a certain segment of the orthodox community however there is a certain segment not small at all, who believes that you are not in the “WE” that is why I reframe from judging.

“Some members of the groups hold that the others are all wrong. I don't care about that. I do what I know is right by my study of the Torah and by following Torah authorities”

That is precisely my point that if you would study “Jewish History” from the time of the diaspora up till this century there were numerous Torah authorities who took opposing positions to the extreme even excommunication each other, and believed that their Torah authority is the Halacha L’ Moshe Me-Sinai and the Oral law, your argument is noting new it has been use again and again. My point is I do not know who this woman is, what type of a conversion was performed, who performed the conversion, and what is her level of observance, therefore I will leave the judging to Hashem.

126

 May 23, 2009 at 11:09 PM tzoorba Says:

Reply to #125  
Anonymous Says:

To #116

We do not subscribe to the point of view that every type of viewpoint is valid and no one can determine the truth. First we determine what the truth is. If a fallout of this is that certain people are wrong and you consider this judging, that's just too bad.

Exactly my point “we” determine, the we is only a certain segment of the orthodox community however there is a certain segment not small at all, who believes that you are not in the “WE” that is why I reframe from judging.

“Some members of the groups hold that the others are all wrong. I don't care about that. I do what I know is right by my study of the Torah and by following Torah authorities”

That is precisely my point that if you would study “Jewish History” from the time of the diaspora up till this century there were numerous Torah authorities who took opposing positions to the extreme even excommunication each other, and believed that their Torah authority is the Halacha L’ Moshe Me-Sinai and the Oral law, your argument is noting new it has been use again and again. My point is I do not know who this woman is, what type of a conversion was performed, who performed the conversion, and what is her level of observance, therefore I will leave the judging to Hashem.

You seem obsessed with judging and are confused by the various arguments that have taken place historically.

All misnagdim today respect and follow many of the halachic rulings of the gr"z, the Baal Hatanya even though there were very virulent disagreements between the chassidim and misnagdim.

However, most of these disagreements resolved themselves or were details in the overall Orthodox framework.

This woman belongs to a known sect that violates all the major tenets of Judaism that no Orthodox group would subscribe to. This is not a parochial disagreement. There is no question that her conversion is invalid and a travesty.

G-d may or may not judge her favorably. I myself would like to see her succeed in true Judaism if her aim is to achieve true closeness to Hashem. Currently, she is on the wrong path and needs to take the next detour.

The Jewish world and even some Orthodox, however, need to recognize that there is nothing good or happy in this story. Regardless of whether she is guilty or blameless, Reform association is bad and it is wrong to give her any credit based on that.

127

 May 23, 2009 at 11:19 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #122  
shaya Says:

#117 listen here mr isgnoramas .first how many times do the posters have to point out to you that pointing out how your desecrating the torah is not sinah. if a police will give you a ticket or arrest you for breaking a law youll yell at him 'hate 'hate 'you hate me'. dont be such a klotz.. next why do you lable it 'chinom' do you know the gemmorah states in psochim if someone is oiver a mitzvah, its a 'mitzvah lisnso" kol shken the wole torah, so its not chinom .when we have movements like yours who desecate the whole torah and bring a chorbon on klall yisroel you call it chinom'?but lemase we dont hate ,were just pointing out the error of your ways.and then we have posters who have the nerve to say we dont know which is the truth . what nerve, the truth is in the torah and 4 parts coded law .and if you dont believe it your not practicing judaism..and for pointing that out ,its hate??

Claim down, don’t call any names it is counter productive, 1st you don’t know anything about me I purposely did not mention what my beliefs are and to which group or shiva I subscribe, 2nd the purpose of my post was to alert people that I subscribe to a simple philosophy that if I don’t know particulars I don’t judge, as a matter of fact I don’t know who she is, who converted her, what method was used, and what level of observance she will follow and neither anyone on this blog have first hand information. As to the Reform movement, I believe the vast majority of them are tinek shnisba’s they just do not know the truth, therefore I will let Hashem judge each individual, for the time being I love each one.
P.S. I still love you regardless of the name calling.

128

 May 24, 2009 at 08:12 AM chaim Says:

#127 you still dont get it. we're not talking of what we think of a reform whatever is .we're talkin of the 'shita'. also tinuk shenihsba is lets say someone who grew up in communist country and didn know any thing when he came to a community of shomrei torah umitzvos hes not in category of tinuk shnisba for the rest of his life.. reform what ever is not tinok shnisba may 7, 8 ..20 years dont know the sheiur .

129

 May 24, 2009 at 08:18 AM shaye Says:

#127 i judqe by the staments you use ' mibirchosov shel adanm nikker im..' can say the same thing from ones writing one can derieve his hahkafos

130

 Jun 07, 2009 at 08:53 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #7  
Anonymous Says:

All the Orthodox Rabbis quoted talked about the woman part of it, but failed to mention the more pressing concern: she's not even Jewish! There is no way her conversion is valid. Yes, woman rabbis are a problem, but the reform and conservative have been ordaining women for years, so that's not big news; black rabbi is a bigger deal, but no reason for it to be controversial; but here, she's not even a Jew, plain and simple! That's the real issue here.

The Three Conserevative Rabbis on her Beit Din were all shomer mitzvot.
She went to Mikveh.
Her conversion is valid in the eyes of man and the Almighty.

131

 Jun 09, 2009 at 08:18 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #77  
jimmy37 Says:

If you read the article carefully, you see the built-in bias that the media has for blacks and Jews. If this woman truly considers herself Jewish, she should no longer allow anyone to call her African-American. This is a code words used to describe past discrimination and provide an excuse for failure. Disregarding the validity of her conversion, she is either an American Jewish or Jewish American.

If being African-American is an excuse for failure, what's your excuse?
The racism on this board is just horrific.

132

 Sep 21, 2009 at 11:13 PM dov Says:

you know, i respect her as a person. but i would repect her more if she was a real ger, not a reform one, and even more if she was the first african american rebbetzin. this is a shandeh.

133

 Aug 26, 2011 at 12:42 PM tryecrot Says:

Yes there should realize the opportunity to RSS commentary, quite simply, CMS is another on the blog.

134

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