Bnei Brak, Israel – The Transportation Ministry committee dealing with special bus lines for the ultra-Orthodox population, the so-called Kosher lines, has wrapped itself in total secrecy in advance of submiting its recommendations to the High Court of Justice in a few weeks.
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But with the public hearing phase ending, preliminary details of the materials presented to the committee in preparation of its policy recommendations are now becoming clear.
The committee, headed by Transportation Ministry deputy director general Alex Langer, received 6,300 written comments from the public asking for the operation of such special lines around the country. Such bus lines would have separate seating for men and women. Some 1,300 wrote in objecting to the lines, including about 100 from the ultra-Orthodox community.
Most of these comments against the Kosher lines were anonymous, but this week a relatively unknown yeshiva head from Bnei Brak, Rabbi Yosef Haim Nakash, raised a storm when he published a signed article on the well-known ultra-Orthodox Internet site Bechadrei Chadarim.
Nakash came out strongly against those not only demanding separation of the sexes on buses but even on the street.
“When did such a prohibition emerge that a married couple is not allowed to sit next to each other,” he asked. “The public is not willing! At least a large part [of the public] is interested in being with their family, as has been customary for generations… At this rate, in a few years, or even months, we will not be able to leave the house together,” wrote Nakash.
His words caused quite a stir as they are seen as contradicting the words of the more famous ultra-Orthodox rabbis who are leading the battle for expanding the separate bus lines.
In the meantime, the committee is finishing up its work. In addition to the written comments and testimony, the committee also heard dozens of representatives from a broad spectrum of groups ranging from a rabbinical commission on transportation, through legal experts and academics, and including women’s organizations objecting to the lines – or at least demanding strict limitations on such bus lines.
The High Court ordered the establishment of the committee as part of its hearing of a suit against the operation of such separate lines.
A group of women petitioned the court saying they were harmed by the treatment they received from passengers and drivers on these special lines. Author Naomi Ragen was one of the plaintiffs, along with the Israel Movement for Progressive Judaism, the Israeli branch of the Reform movement.
In January the High Court ordered the transportation minister to establish a professional forum to formulate policy for operating such lines, both within cities and between cities. The recommendations were to be based on the ten years of experience in operating such lines, and to do so in within the limits of “tolerance and common sense,” ordered the High Court.
The panel of judges, headed by Justice Elyakim Rubinstein, issued a temporary order at the time stating they were “starting from the assumption that there was no prohibition against separated buses in response to the needs of the ultra-Orthodox public.” The justices said this was also in line with the plaintiffs’ own views.
The Transportation Ministry said the committee is expected to present its recommendation within a month.
R’ Nakash makes an excellent point. No need to be more frum than the previous generations.
Without judging him, who is this Rabbi Nakash? I never heard of him…
as usual the trash newspaper am haaretz is trying to make it seem as though there is division amongst the charedi on this issue. They try to demonize the pious for wanting to keep holiness between the sexes. An interesting read supporting the separation would be the letter of aristeas which was written in 200-300 bce. It clearly shows that in the holy land men and women were separated when they walked on the streeets…
I have to give him credit that he is not hiding under an anonymous name and he signed his name. but I will have to say that based on what is written in this article the rabbi needs to recheck his priorities. he is worried that he will not be able to walk out with his wife on the street together. how can u compare that to men and women pushing into each other and sitting together on one bench on a bus? maybe he should fight againts a mechitzah in the shul? I find it to be a selfish decision not a torah decision, especially since such buses already exist why would an erliche yid go againts it? why would he put himself on one platform with the reforms and the anti religious? may hashem have pity on him and stir him in the right direction.
b’makon sheayn anoshim heshtadel lihiyos is. Hooray – finally
Why can’t they have 3 seperate sections. One for men and one for women and a third for mixed or family seating.
That rabbis should be ashamed of himself. Instead of being mechazek such an improtant project that brings the geulah closer, he gives statements that just reveal inner emptyness…
Everything would be a non-issue if Egged would act responsibly. There is clearly an overcrowding problem, which results in people coming in contact with others. I, as a finicky American, stopped traveling with Egged a while ago. I couldn’t handle being treated sub-human, and detested being touched by strangers. Especially members of the opposite gender.
If Egged would simply comply with Israeli safety regulations, which limit the number of passengers per bus, and start providing adequate bussing, tznius wouldn’t be such a problem.
Of course there will still be some people who will insist on separate seating, but I’m under the impression that most passengers will not feel that they are compromising in their yiddishkiet by being in the proximity of the opposite gender.
What amazes me most, is that charedim who object to mixed buses, still travel an buses that are overcrowded, and is impossible to be shomer negiah. If it were so important to them, they would either walk, or shell out money for a taxi. But, I guess, it doesn’t really bother their yiddishkeit that much. It’s sad.
I’m sure that I remember seeing in the sefer halichos bas yisroel, that R’ Moshe paskened that it isn’t a problem being next to a woman on a bus, because it is’t derech chibah.
kudos to this secheldik rav!!!
Kol HaKavod! It is interesting to me that the very people who are so opposed to any change (Education, dress, media etc.) are the very people who are innovating “change” here. This has never existed before except perhaps in some Chasidic circles.
R’ Nakash if a fictive name
Where can I sign up to denounce rabbi nakash and let my voice be heard loud and clear in favor of these seperate busses?
I don’t want my wife and daughters riding the same busses with men who can’t share a bus with a woman without getting hot and bothered.
Keep these guys on their own busses until they learn to keep their noses in the five books of moses (or mishnayos).
this year they want seperate buses next year seperate streets and year after seperate houes and resturants then women should cover their bodies more and then that’s when women will b wearing bed sheets over their heads like the arabs. why don’t u skip all those steps go straight 2 being a arab & move out of israel with the rest of the arabs. all u people want 2 fix wat u do on the outside wat other people see u do in public . fix your inside first then the outsides.. don’t make machmris for the public make them for yourself make yourself a better jew.. doing this won’t help noone only seperate jews more.
Let’s call a spade a spade. There are so many meshugoim who come to the gedolim and drei them a spodek. People who have ‘hirhurim’ on the bus should go and see a shrink. Once the buses have apartheid, then it’s on to the banks, the stores – Perhaps we shouldn’t even breathe the same air.
Grow up children, there are so many other real issues – and we have people bleating in the name of frumkeit. ANd while the chumra boys are getting so excited – oy an isha, oy an isha – let them make a move that the men sit at the back of the bus, and let them maneuver down the aisle with their ‘pek ‘n zek’.
the chasam sofer says that the custom for women not to light chanuka candles even though they are chayav to but rather rely on their husbands or fathers is because they used to light ouside and the women stayed inside while the men were outside to prevent mingling. im not saying women shouldnt go out but whats wrong with seperate buses.
newsflash: there is no issur against accidentally bumping into someone on a bus or train. but we are aiming to be frummer than Gd here so lets asser using mixed public transport.
what happened to not adding to the Torah?? the gedarim were already set in place for us! shomer negia, yichud, etc. we should be sane enough and strong enough not to need seperate seating on a BUS!
Amazing!
A rav in EY expresses his opinion on an issue that has to do only with yiddin in EY and within minutes every yokel in America is out here either farshmutzing him, proclaiming which deceased gedolim would agree with him or spinning history to make it appear that the action to which he objects is as old as the torah itself and those opposing taking this action as being the ones trying to change things!
Amazing!
A rav in EY expresses his opinion on an issue that has to do only with yiddin in EY and within minutes every yokel in America is out here either farshmutzing him, proclaiming which deceased gedolim would agree with him or spinning history to make it appear that the action to which he objects is as old as the torah itself and those opposing taking this action as being the ones trying to change things!
There is no halacha requiring a mechitza on a public vehicle, public market or any place where divrei kedusha are not going on.
Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach z”l used to travel on the regular bus lines with no problem.
For those who want to be machmir according to the minhag of their kehilla, it’s up to them but they can’t impose it on any other frum person that doesn’t agree with this chumra.
Rav Moshe paskened that one could travel on a bus or train even if he might be forced to bump into others as long as there is no intent for this since his mind is not on this and he barely notices it. If someone is too aware of this, then they shouldn’t travel on a crowded vehicle where bumping is a problem. However, no mechitza is required in the general case.
If contact (not just being on the same side of a bus or using intermixed seats) is likely, even though it is not an issue, a baal nefesh should be machmir to avoid it. However, there is no requirement to have a mechitza on a bus where contact is not an issue. In fact, having a mechitza sometimes creates a greater problem.
#23 can you explain ‘torah based democracy’? also the gemmorah says a eisha should not stand in front of beis medresh when the mensfolk come out as not to cause hirhirum
#29 those who compare to taliban are usually not shomrei torah umitzvos, as to them the whole torah is talibanization, afre lepuma, including . by piously prefacing your statement with ‘ ia m staunch defender of..’ your trying to fool us well you didnt
so called Chareidim push in front of people 3 times their age and steal their place and then they throw hats on seats to save places for friends who are not yet on the bus and all this iswhat they call “Mehadrin Buses”what about Lo Signov and Derech Eretz
in the end of the 50’s a petition signed by many gedoilim of america was sent to then govenor Nelson Rockefeller that the nyc subway should be segregated (just the thought of it shows how much the land has changed in 50 years now we have to petition against same gender marriage !)
Once I wrote a letter to HaModia about this: they changed it around and printed it according to what they wanted to say, so I will post my feelings here.
The way these buses are segregated now is nothing short of hypocritical and ridiculous. My cousin was on the bus the other day, had to buy a chofshi chodshi, and she had to go between the men to get it, who yelled at her for breaking the tznius. Embarrassing people is OK, but buying a chofshi chofshi is not.
The men always sit in the back anyway, particularly husbands and yeshiva bachurim, and often, women are left standing because men took the seats in back.
I am often asked to move so a woman can sit with her husband in the back, and one time, I was actually tricked into it because a man asked if I could move back so he can sit, and then, he brought his wife to sit there.
It’s not fair. Women are not black people in the South in the 50’s. Either make it like a Monsey bus with the mechitza down the middle, or have separate buses. I at least have yiras Hashem, but I can see why people wouldn’t want to be religious because of the ridiculous garbage you people are foisting about as being Torah true values when it just doesn’t work (and then screaming and even hitting the women that don’t act accordingly – a situation that has happened so many times) Make it work, and then people will respect it.
Maybe if the charedim would just make their own ALTOGETHER SEPARATE moniyot it would be better and give competition, and bust the horribly overpriced Egged monopoly, like in Tel Aviv where the bus now has a chofshi yomi (daily pass) so people won’t take the moniyot.
Anyway, next thing you know, all of the women are going to have to stop wearing burkas!!!!
Because of things like this, anywhere I go that’s not charedi, I am forced to do public relations to minimize the chilul Hashem effect of charedi actions.
The most burgeoning example: Why do I personally know four chozrim l’sheilah who were molested by rabbanim that no one in the community ever did anything about? I can’t even try to explain what moiser is, and is it really an excuse, anyway? I tried to explain that in NYC they are finally doing something about it, but my friend yelled, “I don’t live in NYC, I live here!” Dare I say that maybe all of this separation is unhealthy?
Why doesn’t the community in Israel deal with more important things? For example, sinas chinam kicked us out of the land once and with all due respect (none) charedim are the kings of it. This one hates that one because he davens like this, this one wears the wrong size black velvet yarmulke, this one is chassidish, and chilonim?? FUGGETABOUTIT! They’re not even Jews!!!!
A retarded son of a very notable rav once accosted me, picked up my denim skirt from my leg, and called me a goya because it was a jean skirt. Yeh, he’s retarded, but where does he get such sentiments from?
I constantly have to reassure chilonim, tinokei shenishba, who tell me they love Hashem and are proud to be Jewish, that they are not considered goyim, just that they do things that Jews are not supposed to do. Chilonim hate you people because you think they are goyim. That is exactly what they tell me, anyway. Maybe it’s time to work on that?!
Another one: People don’t clean up after themselves in places like Lifta and the parks (you should see the park where I live in Arzei Habira, it looks like a garbage dump because no one ever taught the sweet little kinderlach not to be pigs). Chilonim see it, and kvetch to me about how I shouldn’t be religious because you people are disgusting.
I am blessed to have good rabbanim and know good people. Most of the rest of the Jews in this country do not. Instead of making just another reason to fight, maybe it’s time, especially in this day and age, to try to kill the charedi yetzer hara of sinas chinam, instead of fighting so hard to relegate women to the back of the bus where the men sit anyway (and make fun of me when I fight with them to get out of there).
BTW: According to the few drops of Torah that I know, as a mere little woman, Hashem is really mad at you people because of the way you write on this site. You are breaking His will and keeping Moshiach from coming much much more that mixed seating on a bus. Thanks for nothing.
Kosher bus, must conform to the Torah!
I would think that the front rows of bus should be reserved for the elderly, handicapped or those with special needs – M’bnai Zeva Takum.
For those who argue for separate seating sections, then the front of the bus should be one side for women and the other side for men, with the back of the bus mixed.
This solution has been rejected by extremist Haredi elements whose real goal is a public bus for Haredim only like 400 and 402 between Bnei Brak and Jerusalem.
Where does one aquire the chutzpah to not only offer an opinion about what reb moshe a”h would have said and done but to express such opinions as “fact”???
Would even reb moshe’s closest talmidim be willing to speculate on such a thing even in private?
“In a landmark moment for Jewish unity, the Rabbinic Committee for the Sanctity of Public Transit has welcomed the Meretz-sponsored initiative legalizing same sex (“Mehadrin”) marriage in Israel.
“Male-female marriage remains the greatest threat to tzniut on public
buses,” explained a Committee spokesman. “Married couples sitting together violate the strict gender separation on the mehadrin buses.
Furthermore, conventional marriage tends to produce children, creating difficult dilemmas. Is it appropriate for a young boy to sit with his mother in the women’s section of the bus, or for a young girl to ch”v sit with her father in the front? Once we have abolished the stumbling block of mixed gender families, entire buses can now be designated male-only or female-only.”
In fact, Mehadrin Marriage has the potential to completely revolutionize tzniut in Eretz Yisrael. Community leaders are now working to establish entire Mehadrin neighbourhoods and even towns, where young Mehadrin couples can purchase apartments in exclusively male or female jurisdictions.
Opposite gender weddings, as well, have always presented an especially
thorny problem in the Torah world, as men and women tend to interact under the chuppah. With Mehadrin Marriage, the strict separation practiced at the se’udah can be extended to the marriage ceremony itself.
Politics makes strange bedfellows. The Rabbinic Committee is now seeking to extend its cooperation with Meretz to adapt the “Two States for Two Peoples” doctrine to create one state for female people and another for male people.
Poskim are currently debating whether the existing concrete separation barrier can serve as a halachically valid mechitza between the two states, or whether it will need to be made higher and thicker.
A compromise has also been reached on the formerly explosive topic of the Pride Parade. This year, two separate Mehadrin Marches will be held: a women’s parade through a female neighbourhood, and a men’s parade through a male neighbourhood.”
by some people whatever r’ moshe (or other rabunim) said bideved sh’bideved is by them a great “hiddur” r’ moshe touches this subject in a few places (by covering the hair etc.) were he writes that he is scared to write too much because its a puritzdige dor…
since when do we only do what is halichakly aloud ??? no body said that whoever ever goes on a mixed bus is a shigetz etc. but to set it up lechtchila??? specially when there is pushing involved?
our life would look completely different if we only did what halachah requires.
what does segregation have to do with degrading or holding for second class citizens?? (maybe its the men who are the second class?) btw how do u explain the brucha u say every morning???
As a woman who lives near geulah in yerushalayim ; I HATE the mehadrin buses. Maybe if the men would not be so chavinistic it would help. We may need more buses so they would not be so crowded. And by the way 98% of men get on the first bus that comes and do not wait for the mehadrin bus. Many men also sit down in the women;s section on the mehadrin bus if there is not enough place by the men and when I was 9 months pregnant I was standing while they were sitting. They should get up for me even if they were only in the mens section. There are many times that I see elderly women standing and no men get up for them. In addition, the way the doors on the bus are situated the women get 1/3 of the place on the bus and the men get 2/3. Why are pregnant and elderly women sitting in the back which make you feel sick and the men in the front. The whole system may be nice in theory but the problems with it must be dealt with first.
Many of you will find this very hard to believe!
Here it is….I personally, saw men and women walking and moving past each other on many of the streets in Meah Shearim!!!!
OMG!
Oy we have sinned!
24000 of rabbi akivas students died because they didnt treat eachother properly. there is a valid minhag that some people have for sitting together and a valid minhag for sitting seperately. eilu vaeilu divrei elokim chayim. it is ok to express your opinions on this issue, but please try not to insult your fellow yidden. shivim panim latorah, it is possible for both of you to be right. regardless of whether or not reb moshe was for or against segregated busses im sure he would have been against yidden insulting eachother over a halachic argument. please
#49 the divrei yoel , tzelemer rav, mattisdorfer rav ztvk’l etc. , etc paskened that if you have a choice if going on transportation al tahras hakodesh (shmiras huanaiem) is begader ‘e ike darkai achrina ras…..hu’
#61 it is obvious that you havent any inklink of the issur of ‘lo sosuru achrei eineichem’ plus a whole lot of mussar seforim. and your going to tell me your so holy and oisgearbet that your thoughts are under your total control when the holiest tzaddikum of OUR generation did all they could not to be mistakel. bottom line your so down in ‘macshovs’ you probably dont even feel (margush) what goes on in your mind …from a yid of the stone age
#61 can you explain what is ‘modern jewish thinking’? on the other hand from your comments, one can see you are MO and down ,because a ben torah there is no such thing as ‘modern jewish thinking’, and if so why are you giving your ‘modern jewish thinking’ on a frum torah site
#61 by the way one of the holy tzddikum (mentioned in #v 64) ask one ben torah what transportation he uses to commute to work so he told him the subways, so the rov asked what about histaklus the yid answered it doesnt affect him ..he rav told ‘how many avairos were you oiver to say it doesnt affect you..?’
#66 if you cant take the heat get out of the kitchen and dont worry so much about reb akivas talmuddim..’bemokom shyesh chillil hasam ein cholkin kovod..’ you have here posters who are so arein in the shmutz from the gass so they comment accordingly and ill point it out …
#70 and since when did your mother have dass torah?
#61 … 99% ads all over involves male -female why ?..because this attracts. everything on the materialstic gentile gass involves male -female why ..(this is not a question this is an answer)..so dont make your self so ‘tamah vater’..so dont come with your ‘purity’
#78 thats what they all say when they cant come up with intelligent retort AL PI TORAH and thanks for prooving my point on that for the upteenth time. now if you can get hold of a talmud chochem a YIRAS SHOMAYIM maybe he can help you draft a scholarly retort al pi torah not ‘modern day jewish thinking’..adios
#61 this is a fact of life, its not derived from some medival…thinking
#55 ….you dont seem to understand what.bal toiseph means,aderabe the halacha is ‘asi siyak letorah’ you shoud make a ‘fence’ to the mitzvos as in this discussion.
# 89 three cheers, you said it explicitly. i braught halacha..but looks like thats not enough. you cant beat around the bush with ‘modern day jewish thinking’ you have to go direcly..
#57 and remember, its not chazal, its one of the 613 mitzvos ‘velo sasuru achrei eineicham’ …’zah hirhur aveiroh’, but, of course, ‘modern day jewish thinking’ disregard it like most of the other 613
#61 ..do you observe ‘family purity’ ? is it in line with ‘modern day jewish thinking’? dont be embarrassed to respond ,nobody knows who you are…the reason i ask is since you have no problem to control the ‘beastly base nature..’ so you dont have the nisoiyen we all have…
why cant they do it like the monsey bus one side men other ladies and curtain between
#63 do you take a test on each bus your wife and daughter ride to make sure…..all the commuters?
I guess we should have a few buses here in the USA for whites who object to sitting next to blacks and vice versa. It’s amazing how abject racist idiocy can be tolerated by Jews as long as it’s in the name of religion.
#96 you are a total ignoramus and dont underatand the issiue`involved which has nothing t do with racism
At some point all the excesses will totally spiral out of control. When this will happen, we will have another great collapse like after Shabsai Tzvi. All those who support this move should think real hard about what they are doing. Nothing good will come of this.
#104 ‘the yid’ What you say is summed up by the ‘ohr hachayim hakadosh’ in 8 words parshes korach, bamidbar 16, pasuk 15, divrei hamaschil ‘vayomer el hashem…’ towards the end ‘….vetayvah hurah lisno hatov sina aza tivious belo siba..’ and that is behind all these who mock anything thats done begader keduasha yesairoh….