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Bnei Brak, Israel - Stir Caused by Rabbi Who is Against Separated Bus Lines |
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But with the public hearing phase ending, preliminary details of the materials presented to the committee in preparation of its policy recommendations are now becoming clear.
The committee, headed by Transportation Ministry deputy director general Alex Langer, received 6,300 written comments from the public asking for the operation of such special lines around the country. Such bus lines would have separate seating for men and women. Some 1,300 wrote in objecting to the lines, including about 100 from the ultra-Orthodox community.
Most of these comments against the Kosher lines were anonymous, but this week a relatively unknown yeshiva head from Bnei Brak, Rabbi Yosef Haim Nakash, raised a storm when he published a signed article on the well-known ultra-Orthodox Internet site Bechadrei Chadarim.
Nakash came out strongly against those not only demanding separation of the sexes on buses but even on the street.
"When did such a prohibition emerge that a married couple is not allowed to sit next to each other," he asked. "The public is not willing! At least a large part [of the public] is interested in being with their family, as has been customary for generations... At this rate, in a few years, or even months, we will not be able to leave the house together," wrote Nakash.
His words caused quite a stir as they are seen as contradicting the words of the more famous ultra-Orthodox rabbis who are leading the battle for expanding the separate bus lines.
In the meantime, the committee is finishing up its work. In addition to the written comments and testimony, the committee also heard dozens of representatives from a broad spectrum of groups ranging from a rabbinical commission on transportation, through legal experts and academics, and including women's organizations objecting to the lines - or at least demanding strict limitations on such bus lines.
The High Court ordered the establishment of the committee as part of its hearing of a suit against the operation of such separate lines.
A group of women petitioned the court saying they were harmed by the treatment they received from passengers and drivers on these special lines. Author Naomi Ragen was one of the plaintiffs, along with the Israel Movement for Progressive Judaism, the Israeli branch of the Reform movement.
In January the High Court ordered the transportation minister to establish a professional forum to formulate policy for operating such lines, both within cities and between cities. The recommendations were to be based on the ten years of experience in operating such lines, and to do so in within the limits of "tolerance and common sense," ordered the High Court.
The panel of judges, headed by Justice Elyakim Rubinstein, issued a temporary order at the time stating they were "starting from the assumption that there was no prohibition against separated buses in response to the needs of the ultra-Orthodox public." The justices said this was also in line with the plaintiffs' own views.
The Transportation Ministry said the committee is expected to present its recommendation within a month.
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White Plains, NY - Four Suspects in Bronx Synagogue Bomb Plot Indicted on More Charges
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Read Comments (112) — Post Yours »
1
Jun 02, 2009 at 06:12 PM Meir Says:
b'makon sheayn anoshim heshtadel lihiyos is. Hooray - finally
2
Jun 02, 2009 at 06:07 PM thinker Says:
I have to give him credit that he is not hiding under an anonymous name and he signed his name. but I will have to say that based on what is written in this article the rabbi needs to recheck his priorities. he is worried that he will not be able to walk out with his wife on the street together. how can u compare that to men and women pushing into each other and sitting together on one bench on a bus? maybe he should fight againts a mechitzah in the shul? I find it to be a selfish decision not a torah decision, especially since such buses already exist why would an erliche yid go againts it? why would he put himself on one platform with the reforms and the anti religious? may hashem have pity on him and stir him in the right direction.
3
Jun 02, 2009 at 05:33 PM Anonymous Says:
as usual the trash newspaper am haaretz is trying to make it seem as though there is division amongst the charedi on this issue. They try to demonize the pious for wanting to keep holiness between the sexes. An interesting read supporting the separation would be the letter of aristeas which was written in 200-300 bce. It clearly shows that in the holy land men and women were separated when they walked on the streeets...
4
Jun 02, 2009 at 05:20 PM Anonymous Says:
Without judging him, who is this Rabbi Nakash? I never heard of him...
5
Jun 02, 2009 at 05:18 PM cp Says:
R' Nakash makes an excellent point. No need to be more frum than the previous generations.
6
Jun 02, 2009 at 06:48 PM Anonymous Says:
That rabbis should be ashamed of himself. Instead of being mechazek such an improtant project that brings the geulah closer, he gives statements that just reveal inner emptyness...
7
Jun 02, 2009 at 06:46 PM anonymous Says:
“ R' Nakash makes an excellent point. No need to be more frum than the previous generations. ”
With such 'rabbis' I can imagine how klal yisroel will like in ten years from now...
8
Jun 02, 2009 at 06:45 PM Anonymous Says:
Why can't they have 3 seperate sections. One for men and one for women and a third for mixed or family seating.
9
Jun 02, 2009 at 07:05 PM Anonymous Says:
“ as usual the trash newspaper am haaretz is trying to make it seem as though there is division amongst the charedi on this issue. They try to demonize the pious for wanting to keep holiness between the sexes. An interesting read supporting the separation would be the letter of aristeas which was written in 200-300 bce. It clearly shows that in the holy land men and women were separated when they walked on the streeets... ”
and if it said the opposite you woud say he's lying about chazal. The fact is, the minhag of one group has no business enforcing itself on the rest.
10
Jun 02, 2009 at 07:38 PM Torah Truth Says:
Kol HaKavod! It is interesting to me that the very people who are so opposed to any change (Education, dress, media etc.) are the very people who are innovating "change" here. This has never existed before except perhaps in some Chasidic circles.
11
Jun 02, 2009 at 07:33 PM az Says:
I'm sure that I remember seeing in the sefer halichos bas yisroel, that R' Moshe paskened that it isn't a problem being next to a woman on a bus, because it is't derech chibah.
kudos to this secheldik rav!!!
12
Jun 02, 2009 at 07:28 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I have to give him credit that he is not hiding under an anonymous name and he signed his name. but I will have to say that based on what is written in this article the rabbi needs to recheck his priorities. he is worried that he will not be able to walk out with his wife on the street together. how can u compare that to men and women pushing into each other and sitting together on one bench on a bus? maybe he should fight againts a mechitzah in the shul? I find it to be a selfish decision not a torah decision, especially since such buses already exist why would an erliche yid go againts it? why would he put himself on one platform with the reforms and the anti religious? may hashem have pity on him and stir him in the right direction. ”
The pulpit behind which Rov Nakash courageously places himself does not rest upon the platform of the anti-religious, as you suggest, but rather upon the yesod of Truth. In speaking up, the Rav defends Yiddishkeit against the distortion of the utra-orthodox Jewish Taliban who have contorted the path of Torah into anything but a lifestyle of neimus and Shalom--the hallmarks of derech haTorah, and the name of Hashem Himself. What he rejects is a Yiddishkeit which would appear practically unrecognizable to generations of kedoshim who literally gave their blood and lives for the Torah values which set us apart,B"H, mikol hagoyim.
Ever view photographs of the Agudah Convention in the early years? Ever see pictures documenting the hundreds upon hundreds of chasunos officiated by the Gedolim of yesteryear--including luminaries such as Rov Moshe Feinstein, Rov Yaakov Kaminetsky, Rav Gifter, ZTL to name just a few? These gedolim participated in these occasions with great joy and leibdigkeit, as did their mishpochos--and said not a word about the mixed seated tables which were the norm in those days. And, Boruch Hashem, many of those couples went on to build erlich basim neemanim leYisroel in which dorei yeshorim were beautifully raised.
Is separate seating required lehalacha for tefillah, for leining, and for kedushin? Yes. Does it necessarily invite the shechinah into places where separation is not mandated lehalachah? The answer really depends why an how it's done; i've yet to meet an individual drawn to the warmth of Torah by the brand of Yiddishkeit practiced by those who make it a priority to force their chumros upon the public. In fact, Ive encountered many who have been thoroughly repulsed and confounded and alienated by this foreign, new brand of mitzvah observance.
Should we strive toward higher standards of erlichkeit and diyuk bemitzvos and shmiras haTorah? Yes. Let's adopt stringencies in mitzvos bein adam lechaveiro, in ahavas Yisroel, in gemilus chassadim. Let us refrain from the judgmental attitude and intolerance so often implicit even as we are so 'machmir' in other areas. Our vigilante brand of Yiddishkeit has served to betray the very humility, aidelkeit, and Torah values for which generations of kedoshim have sanctified their lives.
13
Jun 02, 2009 at 07:27 PM sam Says:
Everything would be a non-issue if Egged would act responsibly. There is clearly an overcrowding problem, which results in people coming in contact with others. I, as a finicky American, stopped traveling with Egged a while ago. I couldn't handle being treated sub-human, and detested being touched by strangers. Especially members of the opposite gender.
If Egged would simply comply with Israeli safety regulations, which limit the number of passengers per bus, and start providing adequate bussing, tznius wouldn't be such a problem.
Of course there will still be some people who will insist on separate seating, but I'm under the impression that most passengers will not feel that they are compromising in their yiddishkiet by being in the proximity of the opposite gender.
What amazes me most, is that charedim who object to mixed buses, still travel an buses that are overcrowded, and is impossible to be shomer negiah. If it were so important to them, they would either walk, or shell out money for a taxi. But, I guess, it doesn't really bother their yiddishkeit that much. It's sad.
14
Jun 02, 2009 at 08:07 PM Anonymous Says:
Where can I sign up to denounce rabbi nakash and let my voice be heard loud and clear in favor of these seperate busses?
I don't want my wife and daughters riding the same busses with men who can't share a bus with a woman without getting hot and bothered.
Keep these guys on their own busses until they learn to keep their noses in the five books of moses (or mishnayos).
15
Jun 02, 2009 at 08:06 PM Anonymous Says:
R' Nakash if a fictive name
16
Jun 02, 2009 at 08:01 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Without judging him, who is this Rabbi Nakash? I never heard of him... ”
You've heard of him now and if history is any indication of the future, there will now be hot-heads everywhere making sure you keep hearing of him.
17
Jun 02, 2009 at 07:52 PM Milhouse Says:
“ I'm sure that I remember seeing in the sefer halichos bas yisroel, that R' Moshe paskened that it isn't a problem being next to a woman on a bus, because it is't derech chibah.
kudos to this secheldik rav!!! ”
R Moshe paskened that it's OK to take a mixed train or bus, since that's all there is. If there was a possibility of taking segregated buses, he'd certainly be for that.
18
Jun 02, 2009 at 07:50 PM Milhouse Says:
“ and if it said the opposite you woud say he's lying about chazal. The fact is, the minhag of one group has no business enforcing itself on the rest. ”
Exactly, and it's the opponents of segregated buses who are imposing their practise on the rest. The charedim aren't imposing anything; there are plenty of mixed buses for those who want them.
19
Jun 02, 2009 at 08:42 PM mottel Says:
“ R' Nakash makes an excellent point. No need to be more frum than the previous generations. ”
Previous generations?! In the gemoro's times, a man didn't even talk with his wife on the street. R' Yakov Kamenetzky zt"l reminisced about how in his (litvishe) shtetl men and women walked on opposite sides of the street. Yisroel kedoshim heim
20
Jun 02, 2009 at 08:41 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Without judging him, who is this Rabbi Nakash? I never heard of him... ”
The heilege rebbe is one of the most respected rabbonim and talmedie chachamim in the charedi olam...you may not agree with his views that are all strictly based on torah and halacha but there is no one in EY who would question his midos
21
Jun 02, 2009 at 08:29 PM Anonymous Says:
this year they want seperate buses next year seperate streets and year after seperate houes and resturants then women should cover their bodies more and then that's when women will b wearing bed sheets over their heads like the arabs. why don't u skip all those steps go straight 2 being a arab & move out of israel with the rest of the arabs. all u people want 2 fix wat u do on the outside wat other people see u do in public . fix your inside first then the outsides.. don't make machmris for the public make them for yourself make yourself a better jew.. doing this won't help noone only seperate jews more.
22
Jun 02, 2009 at 08:26 PM Charles Hall Says:
“ Everything would be a non-issue if Egged would act responsibly. There is clearly an overcrowding problem, which results in people coming in contact with others. I, as a finicky American, stopped traveling with Egged a while ago. I couldn't handle being treated sub-human, and detested being touched by strangers. Especially members of the opposite gender.
If Egged would simply comply with Israeli safety regulations, which limit the number of passengers per bus, and start providing adequate bussing, tznius wouldn't be such a problem.
Of course there will still be some people who will insist on separate seating, but I'm under the impression that most passengers will not feel that they are compromising in their yiddishkiet by being in the proximity of the opposite gender.
What amazes me most, is that charedim who object to mixed buses, still travel an buses that are overcrowded, and is impossible to be shomer negiah. If it were so important to them, they would either walk, or shell out money for a taxi. But, I guess, it doesn't really bother their yiddishkeit that much. It's sad. ”
New York City subways are even more overcrowded, yet frum Jews take them all the time.
23
Jun 02, 2009 at 08:45 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Exactly, and it's the opponents of segregated buses who are imposing their practise on the rest. The charedim aren't imposing anything; there are plenty of mixed buses for those who want them. ”
In a torah-based democracy, there should never be any government policy which treats women as second class citizens. There is nothing in torah or halacha that requires such separation. Let those who want to trash women in the name of a distorted view of yiddeshkeit pay for it themselves. Rav Moshe would have gone out of his way to ride on a mixed bus to express his solidarity with yiddeshe women.
24
Jun 02, 2009 at 08:59 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Where can I sign up to denounce rabbi nakash and let my voice be heard loud and clear in favor of these seperate busses?
I don't want my wife and daughters riding the same busses with men who can't share a bus with a woman without getting hot and bothered.
Keep these guys on their own busses until they learn to keep their noses in the five books of moses (or mishnayos). ”
would you say the same about chazal who say its assur to walk behind a woman or lok at womans clothing even when they not wearing them!?
25
Jun 02, 2009 at 08:50 PM mottel Says:
“ The heilege rebbe is one of the most respected rabbonim and talmedie chachamim in the charedi olam...you may not agree with his views that are all strictly based on torah and halacha but there is no one in EY who would question his midos ”
you're a blatant liar, noone in the chareidishe world has heard of your 'heilige rebbe'
26
Jun 02, 2009 at 08:50 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I'm sure that I remember seeing in the sefer halichos bas yisroel, that R' Moshe paskened that it isn't a problem being next to a woman on a bus, because it is't derech chibah.
kudos to this secheldik rav!!! ”
so r moshe holds that men and woman can shake hands cuz its not derech chiba? i dont know but i find it hard to imagine that he does.
27
Jun 02, 2009 at 09:04 PM Gutsy Man Says:
Let's call a spade a spade. There are so many meshugoim who come to the gedolim and drei them a spodek. People who have 'hirhurim' on the bus should go and see a shrink. Once the buses have apartheid, then it's on to the banks, the stores - Perhaps we shouldn't even breathe the same air.
Grow up children, there are so many other real issues - and we have people bleating in the name of frumkeit. ANd while the chumra boys are getting so excited - oy an isha, oy an isha - let them make a move that the men sit at the back of the bus, and let them maneuver down the aisle with their 'pek 'n zek'.
28
Jun 02, 2009 at 09:41 PM Anonymous Says:
Amazing!
A rav in EY expresses his opinion on an issue that has to do only with yiddin in EY and within minutes every yokel in America is out here either farshmutzing him, proclaiming which deceased gedolim would agree with him or spinning history to make it appear that the action to which he objects is as old as the torah itself and those opposing taking this action as being the ones trying to change things!
29
Jun 02, 2009 at 09:41 PM FVNMS Says:
“ That rabbis should be ashamed of himself. Instead of being mechazek such an improtant project that brings the geulah closer, he gives statements that just reveal inner emptyness... ”
I am regularly bashed for being a staunch defender of almost all things Chassidish. I wear that as a badge of honor. I also believe that mingling of the sexes may and does lead to actions/thoughts that we may regret later.
It is with these credentials that I am hereby stating unequivocally that the so called Kosher Bus movement is one monumentally stupid idea, steeped in Talibanesque ideology that has been festering for years among our well-meaning but quite silly brothers (and some sisters). I will be yelled at for saying this. Gezinterheit, knock yourselves out. There is so much we need to be mesaken in klal yisroel. We know what those things are (at least those of us who don't bury our head in the allegorical sand) and they don't need mention. I will never accept from any of you who shrei chai vekayom that this is in any way halacha. It's shtissim mit borsht.
Noch dertzi, this will create (and already is creating) more animus and ridicule toward frum people like myself who just want to live their lives, do ratzon Hashem and be left the *#&^! alone. I don't want to be the beneficiary of mockery and dumb questions regarding daily new Islamified chimres conjured up by buffoons in our community. I won't defend them - feel free to call me a self-hating Jew.
Bottom line: do whatever you want on your own time and your own dime. Live and let live, says I. You don't have my support, and don't any of you dare try to enforce this narishkeit on me or mine.
30
Jun 02, 2009 at 09:38 PM sunny Says:
newsflash: there is no issur against accidentally bumping into someone on a bus or train. but we are aiming to be frummer than Gd here so lets asser using mixed public transport.
what happened to not adding to the Torah?? the gedarim were already set in place for us! shomer negia, yichud, etc. we should be sane enough and strong enough not to need seperate seating on a BUS!
31
Jun 02, 2009 at 09:37 PM Anonymous Says:
the chasam sofer says that the custom for women not to light chanuka candles even though they are chayav to but rather rely on their husbands or fathers is because they used to light ouside and the women stayed inside while the men were outside to prevent mingling. im not saying women shouldnt go out but whats wrong with seperate buses.
32
Jun 02, 2009 at 09:50 PM Anonymous Says:
Amazing!
A rav in EY expresses his opinion on an issue that has to do only with yiddin in EY and within minutes every yokel in America is out here either farshmutzing him, proclaiming which deceased gedolim would agree with him or spinning history to make it appear that the action to which he objects is as old as the torah itself and those opposing taking this action as being the ones trying to change things!
33
Jun 02, 2009 at 09:45 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Let's call a spade a spade. There are so many meshugoim who come to the gedolim and drei them a spodek. People who have 'hirhurim' on the bus should go and see a shrink. Once the buses have apartheid, then it's on to the banks, the stores - Perhaps we shouldn't even breathe the same air.
Grow up children, there are so many other real issues - and we have people bleating in the name of frumkeit. ANd while the chumra boys are getting so excited - oy an isha, oy an isha - let them make a move that the men sit at the back of the bus, and let them maneuver down the aisle with their 'pek 'n zek'. ”
Its not a question of "hirhurim" but rather the intrinsic hormones and yetzer horah of men (including great tzadikim and rabbonim)that make it impossible to be pushed together on a crowded bus without instigating lewd thoughts. I don't believe even the gadolim could have sat on a bus trying to daven or learn while having a woman literally on their lap or crowded into them. This is not a question of "chumras". An isha cannot be tolerated on public transit with frumme menchen.
34
Jun 02, 2009 at 11:10 PM Milhouse Says:
“ In a torah-based democracy, there should never be any government policy which treats women as second class citizens. There is nothing in torah or halacha that requires such separation. Let those who want to trash women in the name of a distorted view of yiddeshkeit pay for it themselves. Rav Moshe would have gone out of his way to ride on a mixed bus to express his solidarity with yiddeshe women. ”
You are an outright liar. How dare you impute your own anti-torah hashkofos to Reb Moshe? He was very much against mixing of the sexes, and if there were a realistic possibility of the city providing segregated transport he would surely have been for it.
35
Jun 02, 2009 at 11:07 PM Milhouse Says:
“ The heilege rebbe is one of the most respected rabbonim and talmedie chachamim in the charedi olam...you may not agree with his views that are all strictly based on torah and halacha but there is no one in EY who would question his midos ”
No, he isn't. He is almost completely unheard of, in the charedi olam or anywhere else. You are making this up, as usual. Liar. Where do you get the chutzpah to just tell complete fabrications? How can a person do that? Midvar sheker tirchok!
36
Jun 02, 2009 at 11:30 PM Milhouse Says:
“ so r moshe holds that men and woman can shake hands cuz its not derech chiba? i dont know but i find it hard to imagine that he does. ”
No, he does not allow that. The difference is that contact on a bus is unintentional. Shaking hands is intentional, and therefore it's possible that it should be derech chiba. As one of my high school teachers put it, "for every nine innocent handshakes, there is one that is very guilty".
37
Jun 03, 2009 at 05:53 AM Anonymous Says:
As a woman who lives near geulah in yerushalayim ; I HATE the mehadrin buses. Maybe if the men would not be so chavinistic it would help. We may need more buses so they would not be so crowded. And by the way 98% of men get on the first bus that comes and do not wait for the mehadrin bus. Many men also sit down in the women;s section on the mehadrin bus if there is not enough place by the men and when I was 9 months pregnant I was standing while they were sitting. They should get up for me even if they were only in the mens section. There are many times that I see elderly women standing and no men get up for them. In addition, the way the doors on the bus are situated the women get 1/3 of the place on the bus and the men get 2/3. Why are pregnant and elderly women sitting in the back which make you feel sick and the men in the front. The whole system may be nice in theory but the problems with it must be dealt with first.
38
Jun 03, 2009 at 05:53 AM Anonymous Says:
“ would you say the same about chazal who say its assur to walk behind a woman or lok at womans clothing even when they not wearing them!? ”
Please explain the connection you think you have found between histaklus at the clothing of a woman you know and bumping in to a stranger by accident so I can point out the error in your thinking.
39
Jun 03, 2009 at 05:36 AM a yid Says:
by some people whatever r' moshe (or other rabunim) said bideved sh'bideved is by them a great "hiddur" r' moshe touches this subject in a few places (by covering the hair etc.) were he writes that he is scared to write too much because its a puritzdige dor...
since when do we only do what is halichakly aloud ??? no body said that whoever ever goes on a mixed bus is a shigetz etc. but to set it up lechtchila??? specially when there is pushing involved?
our life would look completely different if we only did what halachah requires.
what does segregation have to do with degrading or holding for second class citizens?? (maybe its the men who are the second class?) btw how do u explain the brucha u say every morning???
40
Jun 03, 2009 at 05:34 AM Anonymous Says:
"In a landmark moment for Jewish unity, the Rabbinic Committee for the Sanctity of Public Transit has welcomed the Meretz-sponsored initiative legalizing same sex ("Mehadrin") marriage in Israel.
"Male-female marriage remains the greatest threat to tzniut on public
buses," explained a Committee spokesman. "Married couples sitting together violate the strict gender separation on the mehadrin buses.
Furthermore, conventional marriage tends to produce children, creating difficult dilemmas. Is it appropriate for a young boy to sit with his mother in the women's section of the bus, or for a young girl to ch"v sit with her father in the front? Once we have abolished the stumbling block of mixed gender families, entire buses can now be designated male-only or female-only."
In fact, Mehadrin Marriage has the potential to completely revolutionize tzniut in Eretz Yisrael. Community leaders are now working to establish entire Mehadrin neighbourhoods and even towns, where young Mehadrin couples can purchase apartments in exclusively male or female jurisdictions.
Opposite gender weddings, as well, have always presented an especially
thorny problem in the Torah world, as men and women tend to interact under the chuppah. With Mehadrin Marriage, the strict separation practiced at the se'udah can be extended to the marriage ceremony itself.
Politics makes strange bedfellows. The Rabbinic Committee is now seeking to extend its cooperation with Meretz to adapt the "Two States for Two Peoples" doctrine to create one state for female people and another for male people.
Poskim are currently debating whether the existing concrete separation barrier can serve as a halachically valid mechitza between the two states, or whether it will need to be made higher and thicker.
A compromise has also been reached on the formerly explosive topic of the Pride Parade. This year, two separate Mehadrin Marches will be held: a women's parade through a female neighbourhood, and a men's parade through a male neighbourhood."
41
Jun 03, 2009 at 05:02 AM Anonymous Says:
Where does one aquire the chutzpah to not only offer an opinion about what reb moshe a"h would have said and done but to express such opinions as "fact"???
Would even reb moshe's closest talmidim be willing to speculate on such a thing even in private?
42
Jun 03, 2009 at 03:43 AM Chaim Saul Says:
Kosher bus, must conform to the Torah!
I would think that the front rows of bus should be reserved for the elderly, handicapped or those with special needs - M'bnai Zeva Takum.
For those who argue for separate seating sections, then the front of the bus should be one side for women and the other side for men, with the back of the bus mixed.
This solution has been rejected by extremist Haredi elements whose real goal is a public bus for Haredim only like 400 and 402 between Bnei Brak and Jerusalem.
43
Jun 03, 2009 at 03:31 AM skazm Says:
Once I wrote a letter to HaModia about this: they changed it around and printed it according to what they wanted to say, so I will post my feelings here.
The way these buses are segregated now is nothing short of hypocritical and ridiculous. My cousin was on the bus the other day, had to buy a chofshi chodshi, and she had to go between the men to get it, who yelled at her for breaking the tznius. Embarrassing people is OK, but buying a chofshi chofshi is not.
The men always sit in the back anyway, particularly husbands and yeshiva bachurim, and often, women are left standing because men took the seats in back.
I am often asked to move so a woman can sit with her husband in the back, and one time, I was actually tricked into it because a man asked if I could move back so he can sit, and then, he brought his wife to sit there.
It's not fair. Women are not black people in the South in the 50's. Either make it like a Monsey bus with the mechitza down the middle, or have separate buses. I at least have yiras Hashem, but I can see why people wouldn't want to be religious because of the ridiculous garbage you people are foisting about as being Torah true values when it just doesn't work (and then screaming and even hitting the women that don't act accordingly - a situation that has happened so many times) Make it work, and then people will respect it.
Maybe if the charedim would just make their own ALTOGETHER SEPARATE moniyot it would be better and give competition, and bust the horribly overpriced Egged monopoly, like in Tel Aviv where the bus now has a chofshi yomi (daily pass) so people won't take the moniyot.
Anyway, next thing you know, all of the women are going to have to stop wearing burkas!!!!
Because of things like this, anywhere I go that's not charedi, I am forced to do public relations to minimize the chilul Hashem effect of charedi actions.
The most burgeoning example: Why do I personally know four chozrim l'sheilah who were molested by rabbanim that no one in the community ever did anything about? I can't even try to explain what moiser is, and is it really an excuse, anyway? I tried to explain that in NYC they are finally doing something about it, but my friend yelled, "I don't live in NYC, I live here!" Dare I say that maybe all of this separation is unhealthy?
Why doesn't the community in Israel deal with more important things? For example, sinas chinam kicked us out of the land once and with all due respect (none) charedim are the kings of it. This one hates that one because he davens like this, this one wears the wrong size black velvet yarmulke, this one is chassidish, and chilonim?? FUGGETABOUTIT! They're not even Jews!!!!
A retarded son of a very notable rav once accosted me, picked up my denim skirt from my leg, and called me a goya because it was a jean skirt. Yeh, he's retarded, but where does he get such sentiments from?
I constantly have to reassure chilonim, tinokei shenishba, who tell me they love Hashem and are proud to be Jewish, that they are not considered goyim, just that they do things that Jews are not supposed to do. Chilonim hate you people because you think they are goyim. That is exactly what they tell me, anyway. Maybe it's time to work on that?!
Another one: People don't clean up after themselves in places like Lifta and the parks (you should see the park where I live in Arzei Habira, it looks like a garbage dump because no one ever taught the sweet little kinderlach not to be pigs). Chilonim see it, and kvetch to me about how I shouldn't be religious because you people are disgusting.
I am blessed to have good rabbanim and know good people. Most of the rest of the Jews in this country do not. Instead of making just another reason to fight, maybe it's time, especially in this day and age, to try to kill the charedi yetzer hara of sinas chinam, instead of fighting so hard to relegate women to the back of the bus where the men sit anyway (and make fun of me when I fight with them to get out of there).
BTW: According to the few drops of Torah that I know, as a mere little woman, Hashem is really mad at you people because of the way you write on this site. You are breaking His will and keeping Moshiach from coming much much more that mixed seating on a bus. Thanks for nothing.
44
Jun 03, 2009 at 12:42 AM Anonymous Says:
in the end of the 50's a petition signed by many gedoilim of america was sent to then govenor Nelson Rockefeller that the nyc subway should be segregated (just the thought of it shows how much the land has changed in 50 years now we have to petition against same gender marriage !)
45
Jun 03, 2009 at 12:32 AM a yid von Bne Brak Says:
so called Chareidim push in front of people 3 times their age and steal their place and then they throw hats on seats to save places for friends who are not yet on the bus and all this iswhat they call "Mehadrin Buses"what about Lo Signov and Derech Eretz
46
Jun 02, 2009 at 11:55 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Previous generations?! In the gemoro's times, a man didn't even talk with his wife on the street. R' Yakov Kamenetzky zt"l reminisced about how in his (litvishe) shtetl men and women walked on opposite sides of the street. Yisroel kedoshim heim ”
The problem today is that due to an extremely narrowing perspective, we have chosen to present a revisionist view of the past to conform to our fundamentalist ideas. As a result, rather than honestly looking to the lives of our leaders as guides for constructing our own lifestyles and perspectives, we interpret the actions and statements of gedolim of previous generations in a way which supports our fixed hashkafos. Particularly in the case of Reb Yaakov, ZT"L, whose biography (authored by his own son) was rejected in favor of this revisionist form of history, it is difficult to accept anecdotes at face value or to determine what meaning to assign them.
47
Jun 02, 2009 at 10:15 PM berel Says:
#29 those who compare to taliban are usually not shomrei torah umitzvos, as to them the whole torah is talibanization, afre lepuma, including . by piously prefacing your statement with ' ia m staunch defender of..' your trying to fool us well you didnt
48
Jun 02, 2009 at 10:10 PM berel Says:
#23 can you explain 'torah based democracy'? also the gemmorah says a eisha should not stand in front of beis medresh when the mensfolk come out as not to cause hirhirum
49
Jun 02, 2009 at 10:03 PM tzoorba Says:
There is no halacha requiring a mechitza on a public vehicle, public market or any place where divrei kedusha are not going on.
Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach z"l used to travel on the regular bus lines with no problem.
For those who want to be machmir according to the minhag of their kehilla, it's up to them but they can't impose it on any other frum person that doesn't agree with this chumra.
Rav Moshe paskened that one could travel on a bus or train even if he might be forced to bump into others as long as there is no intent for this since his mind is not on this and he barely notices it. If someone is too aware of this, then they shouldn't travel on a crowded vehicle where bumping is a problem. However, no mechitza is required in the general case.
If contact (not just being on the same side of a bus or using intermixed seats) is likely, even though it is not an issue, a baal nefesh should be machmir to avoid it. However, there is no requirement to have a mechitza on a bus where contact is not an issue. In fact, having a mechitza sometimes creates a greater problem.
50
Jun 03, 2009 at 07:13 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Exactly, and it's the opponents of segregated buses who are imposing their practise on the rest. The charedim aren't imposing anything; there are plenty of mixed buses for those who want them. ”
Yes, but in a democracy, the state also has a role in protecting the rights of all its citizens against a higher set of rights and freedoms. Brown v the Board of Ed is the standard where even a "separate but equal" standard is unacceptably discriminatory. Halacha and religious protection obviously present a more complex set of issues which the court has to weigh. But, ultimately, the state is not only entitled but required to intervene if mehadrin buses violate the basic rights of citizens and that's the determination the court is in the process of making here.
51
Jun 03, 2009 at 07:10 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Please explain the connection you think you have found between histaklus at the clothing of a woman you know and bumping in to a stranger by accident so I can point out the error in your thinking. ”
if you read the post i was was replying to you would see that i wasnt comparing buses and looking at womens clothing. rather i was responding to #14 sarcastic and degrading comment that he wouldnt want his wife or daughters to go on a bus with men who would get "hot and bothered" by seeing or accidentally bumping into a women. my response to that was would he say the same moronic thing about chazal who said its assur to look at womens clothing. maybe he wouldnt want his daughter near them because they get "hot and bothered" just by looking at womans clothing.
52
Jun 03, 2009 at 06:59 AM Anonymous Says:
“ would you say the same about chazal who say its assur to walk behind a woman or lok at womans clothing even when they not wearing them!? ”
yes, I find that view creepy and abhorrent and deeply sexist and offensive in our time.
53
Jun 03, 2009 at 07:30 AM Avrohom Abba Says:
Many of you will find this very hard to believe!
Here it is....I personally, saw men and women walking and moving past each other on many of the streets in Meah Shearim!!!!
OMG!
Oy we have sinned!
54
Jun 03, 2009 at 07:48 AM Anonymous Says:
“ if you read the post i was was replying to you would see that i wasnt comparing buses and looking at womens clothing. rather i was responding to #14 sarcastic and degrading comment that he wouldnt want his wife or daughters to go on a bus with men who would get "hot and bothered" by seeing or accidentally bumping into a women. my response to that was would he say the same moronic thing about chazal who said its assur to look at womens clothing. maybe he wouldnt want his daughter near them because they get "hot and bothered" just by looking at womans clothing. ”
The first one to resort to insults (like "moronic") loses.
You lose.
55
Jun 03, 2009 at 07:44 AM FVNMS Says:
“ #29 those who compare to taliban are usually not shomrei torah umitzvos, as to them the whole torah is talibanization, afre lepuma, including . by piously prefacing your statement with ' ia m staunch defender of..' your trying to fool us well you didnt ”
You're not too bright, now, are you? You don't know who I am yet you stick your neck out and state as fact the level of my observance. Bad guess. I am probably frummer than you or your rebbe. And no I don't consider the Taryag Mitzvos Talibanlike. You, um , do know what the Taryag Mitzvos are...right? Well I won't take it for granted that you do, so let me enlighten you: one of them is loy toisif.
56
Jun 03, 2009 at 07:43 AM tzoorba Says:
“ yes, I find that view creepy and abhorrent and deeply sexist and offensive in our time. ”
I find your view corrupt and disgusting and based on the warped immorality and sexual politics of our deeply flawed times.
57
Jun 03, 2009 at 07:42 AM Anonymous Says:
“ yes, I find that view creepy and abhorrent and deeply sexist and offensive in our time. ”
huh? you find it abhorent and sexist that chazal underestood the nature of the average man and took steps to prevent men from having hirhurim? please explain yourself.
58
Jun 03, 2009 at 07:40 AM FVNMS Says:
“ "In a landmark moment for Jewish unity, the Rabbinic Committee for the Sanctity of Public Transit has welcomed the Meretz-sponsored initiative legalizing same sex ("Mehadrin") marriage in Israel.
"Male-female marriage remains the greatest threat to tzniut on public
buses," explained a Committee spokesman. "Married couples sitting together violate the strict gender separation on the mehadrin buses.
Furthermore, conventional marriage tends to produce children, creating difficult dilemmas. Is it appropriate for a young boy to sit with his mother in the women's section of the bus, or for a young girl to ch"v sit with her father in the front? Once we have abolished the stumbling block of mixed gender families, entire buses can now be designated male-only or female-only."
In fact, Mehadrin Marriage has the potential to completely revolutionize tzniut in Eretz Yisrael. Community leaders are now working to establish entire Mehadrin neighbourhoods and even towns, where young Mehadrin couples can purchase apartments in exclusively male or female jurisdictions.
Opposite gender weddings, as well, have always presented an especially
thorny problem in the Torah world, as men and women tend to interact under the chuppah. With Mehadrin Marriage, the strict separation practiced at the se'udah can be extended to the marriage ceremony itself.
Politics makes strange bedfellows. The Rabbinic Committee is now seeking to extend its cooperation with Meretz to adapt the "Two States for Two Peoples" doctrine to create one state for female people and another for male people.
Poskim are currently debating whether the existing concrete separation barrier can serve as a halachically valid mechitza between the two states, or whether it will need to be made higher and thicker.
A compromise has also been reached on the formerly explosive topic of the Pride Parade. This year, two separate Mehadrin Marches will be held: a women's parade through a female neighbourhood, and a men's parade through a male neighbourhood."
”
Git gezoogt.
59
Jun 03, 2009 at 08:32 AM Anonymous Says:
“ The first one to resort to insults (like "moronic") loses.
You lose. ”
notice how i didnt call the poster moronic i refered to his statement as moronic and was clearly not an insult directed at a person. i despise when people start hurling insults at each other on this site. if you are the poster of the origional statement i apoligize for saying something that you thought was directed at you. however please dont use this as a copout since it was not directed at you rather at your statement.
60
Jun 03, 2009 at 08:26 AM Dov Says:
“ Where can I sign up to denounce rabbi nakash and let my voice be heard loud and clear in favor of these seperate busses?
I don't want my wife and daughters riding the same busses with men who can't share a bus with a woman without getting hot and bothered.
Keep these guys on their own busses until they learn to keep their noses in the five books of moses (or mishnayos). ”
Maybe the men should learn to control themselves. You are also presumtuous to think your wife and daughters will make people 'hot and bothered' probaly just bothered
61
Jun 03, 2009 at 09:29 AM Anonymous Says:
“ huh? you find it abhorent and sexist that chazal underestood the nature of the average man and took steps to prevent men from having hirhurim? please explain yourself. ”
Happy to.
The "(the base) nature of the average man" argument is actually a medieval xian idea derived from the idea of "the fall" It should have no place in modern Jewish thinking. Educated, liberated (I don't mean non-frum) men and women respect each other and, believe it or not, don't spend their days thinking lewd thoughts every time they encounter each other. I have a satisfactory sex life, I travel the NY subways everyday and, somehow, have no problem concentrating on the book or newspaper I'm reading without wondering what the person next to me looks like naked.
I've also managed to take my wife and daughters' clothes to the dry cleaners for many years and, amazingly been just fine. If one has thoughts about women's clothes, you probably need some serious counseling and possibly incarceration. That is not normal and are a threat to our community.
62
Jun 03, 2009 at 09:17 AM Anonymous Says:
“ notice how i didnt call the poster moronic i refered to his statement as moronic and was clearly not an insult directed at a person. i despise when people start hurling insults at each other on this site. if you are the poster of the origional statement i apoligize for saying something that you thought was directed at you. however please dont use this as a copout since it was not directed at you rather at your statement. ”
Semantics.
And ou still haven't told us what makes you think the issues are linked, other than the fact that you assume that a person who is opposed to seperate busses (or supports them to keep the womenfolk away from men who should learn to keep their eyes and minds in check) is in effect disagreeing with chazal's rule of not walking behind a woman or staring are her clothing.
63
Jun 03, 2009 at 09:59 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Maybe the men should learn to control themselves. You are also presumtuous to think your wife and daughters will make people 'hot and bothered' probaly just bothered ”
I wrote regarding men who get hot and bothered by the sight of women in general, not of my wife and daughters.
Regardding my wife and daughters I only wrote that i don't want them on the same bus as such men, not that they would be the trigger of such a reaction.
64
Jun 03, 2009 at 09:58 AM berel Says:
#49 the divrei yoel , tzelemer rav, mattisdorfer rav ztvk'l etc. , etc paskened that if you have a choice if going on transportation al tahras hakodesh (shmiras huanaiem) is begader 'e ike darkai achrina ras.....hu'
65
Jun 03, 2009 at 10:08 AM berel Says:
#61 it is obvious that you havent any inklink of the issur of 'lo sosuru achrei eineichem' plus a whole lot of mussar seforim. and your going to tell me your so holy and oisgearbet that your thoughts are under your total control when the holiest tzaddikum of OUR generation did all they could not to be mistakel. bottom line your so down in 'macshovs' you probably dont even feel (margush) what goes on in your mind ...from a yid of the stone age
66
Jun 03, 2009 at 09:51 AM Anonymous Says:
24000 of rabbi akivas students died because they didnt treat eachother properly. there is a valid minhag that some people have for sitting together and a valid minhag for sitting seperately. eilu vaeilu divrei elokim chayim. it is ok to express your opinions on this issue, but please try not to insult your fellow yidden. shivim panim latorah, it is possible for both of you to be right. regardless of whether or not reb moshe was for or against segregated busses im sure he would have been against yidden insulting eachother over a halachic argument. please
67
Jun 03, 2009 at 10:28 AM shimon Says:
#66 if you cant take the heat get out of the kitchen and dont worry so much about reb akivas talmuddim..'bemokom shyesh chillil hasam ein cholkin kovod..' you have here posters who are so arein in the shmutz from the gass so they comment accordingly and ill point it out ...
68
Jun 03, 2009 at 10:23 AM berel Says:
#61 by the way one of the holy tzddikum (mentioned in #v 64) ask one ben torah what transportation he uses to commute to work so he told him the subways, so the rov asked what about histaklus the yid answered it doesnt affect him ..he rav told 'how many avairos were you oiver to say it doesnt affect you..?'
69
Jun 03, 2009 at 10:13 AM berel Says:
#61 can you explain what is 'modern jewish thinking'? on the other hand from your comments, one can see you are MO and down ,because a ben torah there is no such thing as 'modern jewish thinking', and if so why are you giving your 'modern jewish thinking' on a frum torah site
70
Jun 03, 2009 at 10:10 AM az Says:
“ so r moshe holds that men and woman can shake hands cuz its not derech chiba? i dont know but i find it hard to imagine that he does. ”
what a stupid thing to say. The whole point of a handshake is to be friendly, that is a level of chibah. Standing on a train or bus is not the same.
As my mother z"l used to say: all brains and no sechel!!
71
Jun 03, 2009 at 10:53 AM Anonymous Says:
“ what a stupid thing to say. The whole point of a handshake is to be friendly, that is a level of chibah. Standing on a train or bus is not the same.
As my mother z"l used to say: all brains and no sechel!! ”
I agree with your point about it being assur but is the stooping to insulting language really helpful?
72
Jun 03, 2009 at 10:43 AM shmul Says:
#70 and since when did your mother have dass torah?
73
Jun 03, 2009 at 11:48 AM chaim Says:
#61... 99% ads all over involves male -female why ?..because this attracts. everything on the materialstic gentile gass involves male -female why ..(this is not a question this is an answer)..so dont make your self so 'tamah vater'..so dont come with your 'purity'
74
Jun 03, 2009 at 12:48 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Semantics.
And ou still haven't told us what makes you think the issues are linked, other than the fact that you assume that a person who is opposed to seperate busses (or supports them to keep the womenfolk away from men who should learn to keep their eyes and minds in check) is in effect disagreeing with chazal's rule of not walking behind a woman or staring are her clothing.
”
if i tell you your shirt is ugly it doesnt mean that you are ugly. and again i wasnt saying that a mechitza on buses and looking at a womans clothing are the same and since its assur to look at clothing there should be mechitzas. the poster said he didnt want his wife or daughter around men who feel the need for a mechitza. my reply was do you not want them hanging around chazal who felt the need to assur looking at womens clothing
75
Jun 03, 2009 at 12:46 PM Raphael Kaufman Says:
“ by some people whatever r' moshe (or other rabunim) said bideved sh'bideved is by them a great "hiddur" r' moshe touches this subject in a few places (by covering the hair etc.) were he writes that he is scared to write too much because its a puritzdige dor...
since when do we only do what is halichakly aloud ??? no body said that whoever ever goes on a mixed bus is a shigetz etc. but to set it up lechtchila??? specially when there is pushing involved?
our life would look completely different if we only did what halachah requires.
what does segregation have to do with degrading or holding for second class citizens?? (maybe its the men who are the second class?) btw how do u explain the brucha u say every morning??? ”
See post #37
76
Jun 03, 2009 at 12:35 PM Raphael Kaufman Says:
“ R Moshe paskened that it's OK to take a mixed train or bus, since that's all there is. If there was a possibility of taking segregated buses, he'd certainly be for that. ”
Sir, don't you often take others to task for exactly what you are doing in this post, that is positing what a godol might have said. Perhaps R'Moshe would have said something along the lines of "a ba'al nefesh should avoid..." but the basis for his p'sak (circa 1960 I think) is still valid.
77
Jun 03, 2009 at 01:01 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Happy to.
The "(the base) nature of the average man" argument is actually a medieval xian idea derived from the idea of "the fall" It should have no place in modern Jewish thinking. Educated, liberated (I don't mean non-frum) men and women respect each other and, believe it or not, don't spend their days thinking lewd thoughts every time they encounter each other. I have a satisfactory sex life, I travel the NY subways everyday and, somehow, have no problem concentrating on the book or newspaper I'm reading without wondering what the person next to me looks like naked.
I've also managed to take my wife and daughters' clothes to the dry cleaners for many years and, amazingly been just fine. If one has thoughts about women's clothes, you probably need some serious counseling and possibly incarceration. That is not normal and are a threat to our community. ”
first of all chazal obviosly disagree with your notion that the concept of the base instinct of man isnt a jewish concept because they did say its assur to walk behind a woman. if you disagree with chazal on that then the the conversation is over because your opinion has no validity to me. second not walking behind a woman or not looking at her clothes or having seperate seating with men on one side and women on the other isnt in anyway a lack or respect for women. third of all have you ever seen the way the majority of secular men look at women as they walk by. they're definitly not imagining what she looks like in an apron making tuna casserole.
78
Jun 03, 2009 at 01:40 PM FVNMS Says:
“ #61 can you explain what is 'modern jewish thinking'? on the other hand from your comments, one can see you are MO and down ,because a ben torah there is no such thing as 'modern jewish thinking', and if so why are you giving your 'modern jewish thinking' on a frum torah site ”
berel Says:
#29 those who compare to taliban are usually not shomrei torah umitzvos, as to them the whole torah is talibanization, afre lepuma, including . by piously prefacing your statement with ' ia m staunch defender of..' your trying to fool us well you didnt
berel Says:
#61 it is obvious that you havent any inklink of the issur of 'lo sosuru achrei eineichem' plus a whole lot of mussar seforim. and your going to tell me your so holy and oisgearbet that your thoughts are under your total control when the holiest tzaddikum of OUR generation did all they could not to be mistakel. bottom line your so down in 'macshovs' you probably dont even feel (margush) what goes on in your mind ...from a yid of the stone age
berel Says:
“ #61 can you explain what is 'modern jewish thinking'? on the other hand from your comments, one can see you are MO and down ,because a ben torah there is no such thing as 'modern jewish thinking', and if so why are you giving your 'modern jewish thinking' on a frum torah site ”
Berele, if whatever it is that you do for a living doesn't work out for you, try being a psychic. You know how religious everyone is and what they think. You can make $$$.
79
Jun 03, 2009 at 02:22 PM benzy Says:
#61 this is a fact of life, its not derived from some medival...thinking
80
Jun 03, 2009 at 02:01 PM berel Says:
#78 thats what they all say when they cant come up with intelligent retort AL PI TORAH and thanks for prooving my point on that for the upteenth time. now if you can get hold of a talmud chochem a YIRAS SHOMAYIM maybe he can help you draft a scholarly retort al pi torah not 'modern day jewish thinking'..adios
81
Jun 03, 2009 at 02:50 PM Anonymous Says:
“ if i tell you your shirt is ugly it doesnt mean that you are ugly. and again i wasnt saying that a mechitza on buses and looking at a womans clothing are the same and since its assur to look at clothing there should be mechitzas. the poster said he didnt want his wife or daughter around men who feel the need for a mechitza. my reply was do you not want them hanging around chazal who felt the need to assur looking at womens clothing ”
Again, to reach that conclusion about the original post you must find linkage between the two, chazal's ban on looking at a woman's clothing and the charaidim of today wanting a mechitza on a bus.
The fact that one is against his family riding next to men who cannot stand on a crowded bus without getting hot and bothered (herein referred to as H&B) does not mean he has an issue with chazal assuring looking at a woman's clothing or walking behind a woman.
Chazal assured these things because they knew the natural tendency of the eyes to become engaged in histaklus benoshim and from there for the mind to follow suit. That is a natural reaction to walking behind a woman or staring at her clothing.
As explained in the igro smoshe the same reaction from being stuck on an over-crowded bus or subway is not normal.
The original poster, therefore, was against making accomodation for abnormal people and their abnormal reactions, wich gave no justification to anyone to link his comments to being anti-chazal, who assured things in recognition of the normal reactions of normal men.
82
Jun 03, 2009 at 03:54 PM Anonymous Says:
“ #66 if you cant take the heat get out of the kitchen and dont worry so much about reb akivas talmuddim..'bemokom shyesh chillil hasam ein cholkin kovod..' you have here posters who are so arein in the shmutz from the gass so they comment accordingly and ill point it out ... ”
1. ad hominems do not add to the validity of argumetns (and actually retract from them) 2. there are rabbis on both sides of this issue, eilu vaeilu... 3. i am sure that shammai felt that hillel was to lax, but hillel and shammai still treated eachother with the epitome of respect 4. tihiyeh ketalmidei shel aharon ohev shalom verodef shalom, we shouldnt just ignore it and leave when people are fighting 5. peace is important enough that hashem bent the truth to try to keep it, im sure its important enought for people to treat others respectfully 6. pirkei avot says that you should make your friends honor like your rabbis honor (forgive me if im getting a wrong quote, im working from memory) elsewhere we learn that your rabbis honor is more strict than your fathers honor, and elsewhere we learn that when you see your father acting wrong you shouldnt tell him "you did this wrong" rather "is it possible that this is the halacha" im not attacking you personally and please forgive me if a gave that impression but i clearly wasnt clear enough in expressing my point in my first comment, im sorry
83
Jun 03, 2009 at 06:36 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Sir, don't you often take others to task for exactly what you are doing in this post, that is positing what a godol might have said. Perhaps R'Moshe would have said something along the lines of "a ba'al nefesh should avoid..." but the basis for his p'sak (circa 1960 I think) is still valid. ”
And his psak was NOT that segregated buses are not needed, but that one may ride the unsegregated ones. What he would have said about the possibility of segregated ones we can only derive from his other published teshuvos about the segregation of the sexes, and when mechitzos are and aren't needed. Having studied those teshuvos, I conclude that he would certainly have been in favour of segregated buses; whether he would have required riding on them in preference to the mixed ones I can't say, but it seems likely that he would, unless there was a good reason to take the mixed one.
84
Jun 03, 2009 at 05:02 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Again, to reach that conclusion about the original post you must find linkage between the two, chazal's ban on looking at a woman's clothing and the charaidim of today wanting a mechitza on a bus.
The fact that one is against his family riding next to men who cannot stand on a crowded bus without getting hot and bothered (herein referred to as H&B) does not mean he has an issue with chazal assuring looking at a woman's clothing or walking behind a woman.
Chazal assured these things because they knew the natural tendency of the eyes to become engaged in histaklus benoshim and from there for the mind to follow suit. That is a natural reaction to walking behind a woman or staring at her clothing.
As explained in the igro smoshe the same reaction from being stuck on an over-crowded bus or subway is not normal.
The original poster, therefore, was against making accomodation for abnormal people and their abnormal reactions, wich gave no justification to anyone to link his comments to being anti-chazal, who assured things in recognition of the normal reactions of normal men. ”
so your saying that you find it more undertandable for someone to have hirhurim by looking at a womans clothing than by being in a packed bus bumping into and or by looking at women themselves!?!?! and you're claiming that r moshe said that also?!?
85
Jun 03, 2009 at 07:20 PM Anonymous Says:
“ so your saying that you find it more undertandable for someone to have hirhurim by looking at a womans clothing than by being in a packed bus bumping into and or by looking at women themselves!?!?! and you're claiming that r moshe said that also?!? ”
This has gone in circles too many times.
It is natural and normal for staring at a woman's clothing or her back view as she walks to lead to hirhurim. That is why chazal said these things are asur.
Getting hirhurim from being jammed up against strangers on a subway or bus is not normal or natural, therefore it is not asur.
I don't think I can explain this any more clearly.
86
Jun 03, 2009 at 07:34 PM Anonymous Says:
“ This has gone in circles too many times.
It is natural and normal for staring at a woman's clothing or her back view as she walks to lead to hirhurim. That is why chazal said these things are asur.
Getting hirhurim from being jammed up against strangers on a subway or bus is not normal or natural, therefore it is not asur.
I don't think I can explain this any more clearly.
”
looking at woman or touching her wil not lead to hirhur but looking at clothes on a clothesline will?!?! you cant explain it clearer because its illogical. ill explain it to you clearly. if looking at clothes will cause you to think about the woman herself it follows that looking at the woman or touching her will certainly cause you to. its called a kal vachomer or aforteore (i forget how to spell it). its one of the basics of logical thinking.
87
Jun 04, 2009 at 04:43 AM ZR Says:
“ "In a landmark moment for Jewish unity, the Rabbinic Committee for the Sanctity of Public Transit has welcomed the Meretz-sponsored initiative legalizing same sex ("Mehadrin") marriage in Israel.
"Male-female marriage remains the greatest threat to tzniut on public
buses," explained a Committee spokesman. "Married couples sitting together violate the strict gender separation on the mehadrin buses.
Furthermore, conventional marriage tends to produce children, creating difficult dilemmas. Is it appropriate for a young boy to sit with his mother in the women's section of the bus, or for a young girl to ch"v sit with her father in the front? Once we have abolished the stumbling block of mixed gender families, entire buses can now be designated male-only or female-only."
In fact, Mehadrin Marriage has the potential to completely revolutionize tzniut in Eretz Yisrael. Community leaders are now working to establish entire Mehadrin neighbourhoods and even towns, where young Mehadrin couples can purchase apartments in exclusively male or female jurisdictions.
Opposite gender weddings, as well, have always presented an especially
thorny problem in the Torah world, as men and women tend to interact under the chuppah. With Mehadrin Marriage, the strict separation practiced at the se'udah can be extended to the marriage ceremony itself.
Politics makes strange bedfellows. The Rabbinic Committee is now seeking to extend its cooperation with Meretz to adapt the "Two States for Two Peoples" doctrine to create one state for female people and another for male people.
Poskim are currently debating whether the existing concrete separation barrier can serve as a halachically valid mechitza between the two states, or whether it will need to be made higher and thicker.
A compromise has also been reached on the formerly explosive topic of the Pride Parade. This year, two separate Mehadrin Marches will be held: a women's parade through a female neighbourhood, and a men's parade through a male neighbourhood."
”
LOL!!Very Good!!!
Seriously though, after going through most of these post, its clear that, even though theoretically organizing segregated buses might be motivated by an honest desire to maximize tznius, but in practice the treatment of the women is unacceptable. Women are abused and ridiculed, and harassed on these "mehadrin" buses. Old women are reportedly left standing while men blatantly sit in the women's section. Aditinaly its the pregnant women who sit at the back; the worst part of a bus for people with motion sickness or "morning sickness".
If the organizers were honest in their motives promoting more kedusha why haven't they addressed any of these concerns?
One easy solution is to put the men on the right and the women on the left, or vise versa. This would solve most of the above issues.
But something tells me that the grievances of the women will not be taken into consideration by these kanoim.
88
Jun 04, 2009 at 03:07 AM hersh Says:
#55....you dont seem to understand what.bal toiseph means,aderabe the halacha is 'asi siyak letorah' you shoud make a 'fence' to the mitzvos as in this discussion.
89
Jun 04, 2009 at 01:47 AM a yid Says:
“ Happy to.
The "(the base) nature of the average man" argument is actually a medieval xian idea derived from the idea of "the fall" It should have no place in modern Jewish thinking. Educated, liberated (I don't mean non-frum) men and women respect each other and, believe it or not, don't spend their days thinking lewd thoughts every time they encounter each other. I have a satisfactory sex life, I travel the NY subways everyday and, somehow, have no problem concentrating on the book or newspaper I'm reading without wondering what the person next to me looks like naked.
I've also managed to take my wife and daughters' clothes to the dry cleaners for many years and, amazingly been just fine. If one has thoughts about women's clothes, you probably need some serious counseling and possibly incarceration. That is not normal and are a threat to our community. ”
and u also watch movies were u see men and woman doing all kinds of things , no I don't mean triple x just regular were its just part of the story. u also don't have a prob. telling reading a good joke thats nivel pe'a . U also have no problem talking about which woman are hot etc. no u don't think about them naked u just like "the way they dress or look and how sexy they are" well by us jews thats all "user" I know thats not an so called educated liberated way of thinking but sorry "we" got "stuck" a few thousand years ago when the thorah was given to us since then we have never been liberated from its yoke and have been educated according to its laws
I guess u had some other education that try's to tell u that u are librated from the torah (oh yea and forget "still frum).
90
Jun 04, 2009 at 07:24 AM berel Says:
# 89 three cheers, you said it explicitly. i braught halacha..but looks like thats not enough. you cant beat around the bush with 'modern day jewish thinking' you have to go direcly..
91
Jun 04, 2009 at 07:46 AM favel Says:
#61..do you observe 'family purity' ? is it in line with 'modern day jewish thinking'? dont be embarrassed to respond ,nobody knows who you are...the reason i ask is since you have no problem to control the 'beastly base nature..' so you dont have the nisoiyen we all have...
92
Jun 04, 2009 at 07:36 AM berel Says:
#57 and remember, its not chazal, its one of the 613 mitzvos 'velo sasuru achrei eineicham' ...'zah hirhur aveiroh', but, of course, 'modern day jewish thinking' disregard it like most of the other 613
93
Jun 04, 2009 at 10:38 AM Milhouse Says:
“ LOL!!Very Good!!!
Seriously though, after going through most of these post, its clear that, even though theoretically organizing segregated buses might be motivated by an honest desire to maximize tznius, but in practice the treatment of the women is unacceptable. Women are abused and ridiculed, and harassed on these "mehadrin" buses. Old women are reportedly left standing while men blatantly sit in the women's section. Aditinaly its the pregnant women who sit at the back; the worst part of a bus for people with motion sickness or "morning sickness".
If the organizers were honest in their motives promoting more kedusha why haven't they addressed any of these concerns?
One easy solution is to put the men on the right and the women on the left, or vise versa. This would solve most of the above issues.
But something tells me that the grievances of the women will not be taken into consideration by these kanoim.
”
Of course not. Because the only ones pushing the idea are the radical kano'im. But if instead of opposing segregated buses, normal people accept them and work to improve them, if the charedi public tells the kano'im that they want real tznius, not this parody of tznius, then maybe something can be achieved.
For instance, the men's section could be in the back, with the first few rows facing backwards so they don't have to look towards the women's section.
94
Jun 04, 2009 at 11:46 AM benz Says:
#63 do you take a test on each bus your wife and daughter ride to make sure.....all the commuters?
95
Jun 04, 2009 at 11:40 AM chalemok Says:
why cant they do it like the monsey bus one side men other ladies and curtain between
96
Jun 04, 2009 at 12:37 PM Dan Says:
I guess we should have a few buses here in the USA for whites who object to sitting next to blacks and vice versa. It's amazing how abject racist idiocy can be tolerated by Jews as long as it's in the name of religion.
97
Jun 04, 2009 at 12:58 PM fav Says:
#96 you are a total ignoramus and dont underatand the issiue`involved which has nothing t do with racism
98
Jun 04, 2009 at 05:13 PM Anonymous Says:
“ looking at woman or touching her wil not lead to hirhur but looking at clothes on a clothesline will?!?! you cant explain it clearer because its illogical. ill explain it to you clearly. if looking at clothes will cause you to think about the woman herself it follows that looking at the woman or touching her will certainly cause you to. its called a kal vachomer or aforteore (i forget how to spell it). its one of the basics of logical thinking. ”
There is a fundamental flaw in the logic of claiming an isur exists based on this kal vachomer:
You are trying to apply the rules of the isur of Histaklus BeNoshim to the isur of Negiah.
Histaklus Benoshim means to stare, whether it happens because a man walks behind a woman or it is in the context of finding pleasure in viewing the garments of a woman, even when is not wearing them. It does not mean to SEE a woman from behind or SEEING her clothing. It is pro-active, for the sake of pleasure, with intent to do so.
Coming into contact with a person on a crowded bus or subway is none of the above.
Reb Moshe's entire point, le'aniyas da'ati, is that since normal men do not actively find pleasure nor seek pleasure by coming into physical contact (negiah) with women on crowded subways and busses, when such things happen they do not cause hirhurai avairah (in normal people) amd therefore there is no isur involved.
99
Jun 04, 2009 at 05:12 PM ZR Says:
“ Of course not. Because the only ones pushing the idea are the radical kano'im. But if instead of opposing segregated buses, normal people accept them and work to improve them, if the charedi public tells the kano'im that they want real tznius, not this parody of tznius, then maybe something can be achieved.
For instance, the men's section could be in the back, with the first few rows facing backwards so they don't have to look towards the women's section.
”
This "mehadrin" bus issue is just one symptom of the chareidi community controlled by radicals taking the community on a destructive path. To paraphrase one poster in the thread of "Charedim will be majority by 2030": What is the chareidi world doing to adapt looking at themselves from a "protected minority species" who have "special" rights (exempting them from the army etc.) to swiftly becoming the majority of the population, and taking upon themselves an equal burden in the country they live in?
Are the Chareidim in EY aware that they will be, in the not too distant future, the majority, and the responsibilities that entails?
With these irresponsible kanoim running the show, the future doesn't look too bright.
100
Jun 04, 2009 at 05:02 PM Pashuteh Yid Says:
“ The pulpit behind which Rov Nakash courageously places himself does not rest upon the platform of the anti-religious, as you suggest, but rather upon the yesod of Truth. In speaking up, the Rav defends Yiddishkeit against the distortion of the utra-orthodox Jewish Taliban who have contorted the path of Torah into anything but a lifestyle of neimus and Shalom--the hallmarks of derech haTorah, and the name of Hashem Himself. What he rejects is a Yiddishkeit which would appear practically unrecognizable to generations of kedoshim who literally gave their blood and lives for the Torah values which set us apart,B"H, mikol hagoyim.
Ever view photographs of the Agudah Convention in the early years? Ever see pictures documenting the hundreds upon hundreds of chasunos officiated by the Gedolim of yesteryear--including luminaries such as Rov Moshe Feinstein, Rov Yaakov Kaminetsky, Rav Gifter, ZTL to name just a few? These gedolim participated in these occasions with great joy and leibdigkeit, as did their mishpochos--and said not a word about the mixed seated tables which were the norm in those days. And, Boruch Hashem, many of those couples went on to build erlich basim neemanim leYisroel in which dorei yeshorim were beautifully raised.
Is separate seating required lehalacha for tefillah, for leining, and for kedushin? Yes. Does it necessarily invite the shechinah into places where separation is not mandated lehalachah? The answer really depends why an how it's done; i've yet to meet an individual drawn to the warmth of Torah by the brand of Yiddishkeit practiced by those who make it a priority to force their chumros upon the public. In fact, Ive encountered many who have been thoroughly repulsed and confounded and alienated by this foreign, new brand of mitzvah observance.
Should we strive toward higher standards of erlichkeit and diyuk bemitzvos and shmiras haTorah? Yes. Let's adopt stringencies in mitzvos bein adam lechaveiro, in ahavas Yisroel, in gemilus chassadim. Let us refrain from the judgmental attitude and intolerance so often implicit even as we are so 'machmir' in other areas. Our vigilante brand of Yiddishkeit has served to betray the very humility, aidelkeit, and Torah values for which generations of kedoshim have sanctified their lives. ”
Well said. In addition, look up gemara in beginning of Sotah where it says about a women who separates from men in the marketplace, "Mai hai dka bodeles min haanashim". The gemara thought it was abnormal.
101
Jun 04, 2009 at 05:48 PM Anonymous Says:
At some point all the excesses will totally spiral out of control. When this will happen, we will have another great collapse like after Shabsai Tzvi. All those who support this move should think real hard about what they are doing. Nothing good will come of this.
102
Jun 04, 2009 at 10:35 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Why can't they have 3 seperate sections. One for men and one for women and a third for mixed or family seating. ”
It has become so complicated now that I think it is just easier to take Egged.
103
Jun 05, 2009 at 07:07 AM a yid Says:
“ As a woman who lives near geulah in yerushalayim ; I HATE the mehadrin buses. Maybe if the men would not be so chavinistic it would help. We may need more buses so they would not be so crowded. And by the way 98% of men get on the first bus that comes and do not wait for the mehadrin bus. Many men also sit down in the women;s section on the mehadrin bus if there is not enough place by the men and when I was 9 months pregnant I was standing while they were sitting. They should get up for me even if they were only in the mens section. There are many times that I see elderly women standing and no men get up for them. In addition, the way the doors on the bus are situated the women get 1/3 of the place on the bus and the men get 2/3. Why are pregnant and elderly women sitting in the back which make you feel sick and the men in the front. The whole system may be nice in theory but the problems with it must be dealt with first.
”
what makes it chavinistic just because u have different sections? do woman not have to get up for elderly woman, or pregnant woman ? so what do u want from the men, and how does it connect with the issue of mihadrin buses?
its a nice thing and if there are other issues they should be dealt with as well.
Its interesting that everybody is blaming all the problems on the mehadrin how about eged sending some more buses so there is more place to sit etc.
104
Jun 05, 2009 at 07:18 AM a yid Says:
“ Once I wrote a letter to HaModia about this: they changed it around and printed it according to what they wanted to say, so I will post my feelings here.
The way these buses are segregated now is nothing short of hypocritical and ridiculous. My cousin was on the bus the other day, had to buy a chofshi chodshi, and she had to go between the men to get it, who yelled at her for breaking the tznius. Embarrassing people is OK, but buying a chofshi chofshi is not.
The men always sit in the back anyway, particularly husbands and yeshiva bachurim, and often, women are left standing because men took the seats in back.
I am often asked to move so a woman can sit with her husband in the back, and one time, I was actually tricked into it because a man asked if I could move back so he can sit, and then, he brought his wife to sit there.
It's not fair. Women are not black people in the South in the 50's. Either make it like a Monsey bus with the mechitza down the middle, or have separate buses. I at least have yiras Hashem, but I can see why people wouldn't want to be religious because of the ridiculous garbage you people are foisting about as being Torah true values when it just doesn't work (and then screaming and even hitting the women that don't act accordingly - a situation that has happened so many times) Make it work, and then people will respect it.
Maybe if the charedim would just make their own ALTOGETHER SEPARATE moniyot it would be better and give competition, and bust the horribly overpriced Egged monopoly, like in Tel Aviv where the bus now has a chofshi yomi (daily pass) so people won't take the moniyot.
Anyway, next thing you know, all of the women are going to have to stop wearing burkas!!!!
Because of things like this, anywhere I go that's not charedi, I am forced to do public relations to minimize the chilul Hashem effect of charedi actions.
The most burgeoning example: Why do I personally know four chozrim l'sheilah who were molested by rabbanim that no one in the community ever did anything about? I can't even try to explain what moiser is, and is it really an excuse, anyway? I tried to explain that in NYC they are finally doing something about it, but my friend yelled, "I don't live in NYC, I live here!" Dare I say that maybe all of this separation is unhealthy?
Why doesn't the community in Israel deal with more important things? For example, sinas chinam kicked us out of the land once and with all due respect (none) charedim are the kings of it. This one hates that one because he davens like this, this one wears the wrong size black velvet yarmulke, this one is chassidish, and chilonim?? FUGGETABOUTIT! They're not even Jews!!!!
A retarded son of a very notable rav once accosted me, picked up my denim skirt from my leg, and called me a goya because it was a jean skirt. Yeh, he's retarded, but where does he get such sentiments from?
I constantly have to reassure chilonim, tinokei shenishba, who tell me they love Hashem and are proud to be Jewish, that they are not considered goyim, just that they do things that Jews are not supposed to do. Chilonim hate you people because you think they are goyim. That is exactly what they tell me, anyway. Maybe it's time to work on that?!
Another one: People don't clean up after themselves in places like Lifta and the parks (you should see the park where I live in Arzei Habira, it looks like a garbage dump because no one ever taught the sweet little kinderlach not to be pigs). Chilonim see it, and kvetch to me about how I shouldn't be religious because you people are disgusting.
I am blessed to have good rabbanim and know good people. Most of the rest of the Jews in this country do not. Instead of making just another reason to fight, maybe it's time, especially in this day and age, to try to kill the charedi yetzer hara of sinas chinam, instead of fighting so hard to relegate women to the back of the bus where the men sit anyway (and make fun of me when I fight with them to get out of there).
BTW: According to the few drops of Torah that I know, as a mere little woman, Hashem is really mad at you people because of the way you write on this site. You are breaking His will and keeping Moshiach from coming much much more that mixed seating on a bus. Thanks for nothing. ”
u write a whole megila about how bad frum jews are, and this should be a reason not to have mihadrin buses? ma inyen shmitta eitzel har sinei?
the guy who tricked you was actually one of the people who don't want mihadrin, he wanted to sit next to his wife... and tell me how this can't happen on non mihadrin busses, when someone asks you to move over, so he or she can sit next to someone they want to, and end up taking both seats!
all I see here from so many posts, is how sina mikalkels es hashira, how the hate for anything that might be a little more holy, is the worst that can be for some
105
Jun 05, 2009 at 07:36 AM a yid Says:
“ I guess we should have a few buses here in the USA for whites who object to sitting next to blacks and vice versa. It's amazing how abject racist idiocy can be tolerated by Jews as long as it's in the name of religion. ”
yes, and they should outlaw having separate bathrooms, dorm rooms, prison's etc. here in the usa ,so that we have real equality. Its amazing how racist idiocy, can be tolerated by liberals as long as it's against religious jews
106
Jun 05, 2009 at 08:31 AM favel Says:
# what am haratzes, what misleading the oilom who dont know better what ignorance to connect that gemmorah to subject at hand
107
Jun 05, 2009 at 08:16 AM berel Says:
#104 'the yid' What you say is summed up by the 'ohr hachayim hakadosh' in 8 words parshes korach, bamidbar 16, pasuk 15, divrei hamaschil 'vayomer el hashem...' towards the end '....vetayvah hurah lisno hatov sina aza tivious belo siba..' and that is behind all these who mock anything thats done begader keduasha yesairoh....
108
Jun 05, 2009 at 08:01 AM a yid Says:
“ The pulpit behind which Rov Nakash courageously places himself does not rest upon the platform of the anti-religious, as you suggest, but rather upon the yesod of Truth. In speaking up, the Rav defends Yiddishkeit against the distortion of the utra-orthodox Jewish Taliban who have contorted the path of Torah into anything but a lifestyle of neimus and Shalom--the hallmarks of derech haTorah, and the name of Hashem Himself. What he rejects is a Yiddishkeit which would appear practically unrecognizable to generations of kedoshim who literally gave their blood and lives for the Torah values which set us apart,B"H, mikol hagoyim.
Ever view photographs of the Agudah Convention in the early years? Ever see pictures documenting the hundreds upon hundreds of chasunos officiated by the Gedolim of yesteryear--including luminaries such as Rov Moshe Feinstein, Rov Yaakov Kaminetsky, Rav Gifter, ZTL to name just a few? These gedolim participated in these occasions with great joy and leibdigkeit, as did their mishpochos--and said not a word about the mixed seated tables which were the norm in those days. And, Boruch Hashem, many of those couples went on to build erlich basim neemanim leYisroel in which dorei yeshorim were beautifully raised.
Is separate seating required lehalacha for tefillah, for leining, and for kedushin? Yes. Does it necessarily invite the shechinah into places where separation is not mandated lehalachah? The answer really depends why an how it's done; i've yet to meet an individual drawn to the warmth of Torah by the brand of Yiddishkeit practiced by those who make it a priority to force their chumros upon the public. In fact, Ive encountered many who have been thoroughly repulsed and confounded and alienated by this foreign, new brand of mitzvah observance.
Should we strive toward higher standards of erlichkeit and diyuk bemitzvos and shmiras haTorah? Yes. Let's adopt stringencies in mitzvos bein adam lechaveiro, in ahavas Yisroel, in gemilus chassadim. Let us refrain from the judgmental attitude and intolerance so often implicit even as we are so 'machmir' in other areas. Our vigilante brand of Yiddishkeit has served to betray the very humility, aidelkeit, and Torah values for which generations of kedoshim have sanctified their lives. ”
did u ever see picture's of the prewar aguda conventions? have u seen how chasanas etc. were made then, and how many people besides closest family were invited then.
Do u know how many people, in those aguda convention years,(that u mention above) held their shops open for shobbos etc. (even people who davened daily) do u know that by young israel there was mixed dancing??? do u get the point???
and yes , even today there are chushivah rabunim being misader kudshin for not so religious jews .
I'm not saying that there is halacha requiring segregation on buses, but do we only do what's halachacly required lechtchila? reb moshie has a heter for not wearning a yarmulka in some places as well is that the way we are supposed to do lechtchila?
these neighborhoods were build by yidden who were moser nefesh for a minhag kal, why can't they have what all citizens and customer's have, a respect for their comfortability.
does ahaves yisruel apply more to yidden who like a less stringent life ratter then to chareidim?
109
Jun 05, 2009 at 08:44 AM favel Says:
#106 is addressed to #100
110
Jun 05, 2009 at 08:48 AM berel Says:
#108 also you can say 'since when do we pasken halacha from pictures?'
111
Jun 07, 2009 at 02:54 AM Milhouse Says:
“ There is a fundamental flaw in the logic of claiming an isur exists based on this kal vachomer:
You are trying to apply the rules of the isur of Histaklus BeNoshim to the isur of Negiah.
Histaklus Benoshim means to stare, whether it happens because a man walks behind a woman or it is in the context of finding pleasure in viewing the garments of a woman, even when is not wearing them. It does not mean to SEE a woman from behind or SEEING her clothing. It is pro-active, for the sake of pleasure, with intent to do so.
Coming into contact with a person on a crowded bus or subway is none of the above.
Reb Moshe's entire point, le'aniyas da'ati, is that since normal men do not actively find pleasure nor seek pleasure by coming into physical contact (negiah) with women on crowded subways and busses, when such things happen they do not cause hirhurai avairah (in normal people) amd therefore there is no isur involved.
”
Sure. But he also required mechitzos at any event that is open to the public. Surely a bus is such an event. Since we don't run the MTA, we can't put up mechitzos, and riding the mixed buses is allowed. But if we can make segregated buses, surely he'd be for that. And if we could persuade the MTA to do so, surely he'd be in favour of that too.
112
Jun 07, 2009 at 02:51 AM Milhouse Says:
“ I guess we should have a few buses here in the USA for whites who object to sitting next to blacks and vice versa. It's amazing how abject racist idiocy can be tolerated by Jews as long as it's in the name of religion. ”
Aderabah, what would be so wrong about it? It seems silly to me, but if there's enough demand for it, why shouldn't it be available? Just because Congress woke up one morning and decided to ban it, that makes it wrong? Tomorrow the same Congress might wake up and make it legal again; would that suddenly make it right? Does Congress decide for you what is right and what is wrong?