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Ramat Beit Shemesh, Israel - Charedim Take on Abuse of Children, As Religious Leaders Are Defiant |
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"I grew up in the community, but I have always been open and accepting of the world around me," begins the haredi-raised Zehava, as she shares the story of her battle against the town's religious leaders, who in her view turn a blind eye to the ongoing problem of sexual abuse in the semi-private haredi school system.
"We have an epidemic on our hands, and there is complete denial here that there is anything wrong," she continues. "I spoke to the rabbis and other community leaders here, but they all called me a liar and said that this kind of thing does not happen here... but it does."
Sadly, Zehava, a recent immigrant from the US, has proof of such abuse and is one of a growing number parents from Ramat Beit Shemesh becoming increasingly frustrated with their leaders' continual denial of the problem.
"Families of the victims are made to feel stupid," she says, adding that they are very often ostracized for speaking out about the problem on any level. "But I will not keep quiet; I want to do all I can to make sure that this does not happen to another child," she insists.
"I still feel guilty that I did not pay attention and continued to send my child to [kindergarten] every day," continues Zehava, describing how her child stopped talking, would not sleep at night and was often inconsolable after being continually abused by the teacher.
Only after two years of medical checks and, eventually, speech therapy did the whole story come out. Zehava took her child to the Jerusalem Center for Child Abuse, where her suspicions were confirmed.
"I know this has happened in other schools, too, because I have since met several parents who tell similar stories about their children," says Zehava, who met with other haredi parents earlier this week under the auspices of the Beit Shemesh-based community organization Lema'an Achai to brainstorm ways to tackle the issue.
"We are a lightning rod for all sorts of problems in the community here," says David Morris, founder and chairman of Lema'an Achai, which provides among its services support and guidance for haredi parents who believe their children might have been sexually abused.
Last summer, the organization set up the "Safe-Kids" hot line in conjunction with the Beit Shemesh social welfare services to provide a lifeline to local families whose children have been abused. While the service has not been inundated with calls, Morris says there have been between five and 10 concrete reports of sexual abuse in the community - and that is just the tip of the iceberg.
"If only one in 10 children actually reports what has happened to them, and then only one in 10 parents goes on to officially report what has happened to their child, and the police or social welfare services only get around to investigating one in 10 complaints, that means there are many more cases out there that we don't get to hear about," he says.
According to Morris, the problem is concentrated in local independent schools - facilities partially funded by the Education Ministry but not supervised by it - which have failed to be supportive of parents who claim that their child has been a victim. In most of the schools, a rabbinic authority has the final say, and in many cases ends up believing the perpetrators' story over the victims', he says.
"I don't know why the community leaders chose to protect the adults over the children, but we hope that we can now start to get the word out that children have to be listened to and protected at all costs."
Morris also says that the response of the authorities such as the police and social services is slow and bureaucratic, with the accused not being found guilty or exonerated for years.
"It's a no-win situation," he continues. "Most people are greatly disappointed by the official response from both within the community and from outside."
"There is a combination of denial, protecting your good name and not involving the secular world, that is preventing [this community] from dealing with this problem," says one parent, whose child was sexually abused in a Beit Shemesh elementary school last year.
Asking to remain anonymous, the father recalls how his family was threatened and pressured by community leaders not to pursue the matter with the police, and how his child was ostracized by most former classmates.
"I was not willing to sit quietly and let it happen," says the father, adding that he immediately took the child to the Jerusalem Center for Child Abuse.
The social harassment is ongoing, he says, highlighting how even though the school's administrator initially fired the accused teacher, the institute's rabbis pushed to bring him back into the school.
Despite the pressure, "I was not afraid to speak out against the abuse... This is an issue that has to be addressed," the father says.
Dr. Yitzhak Kadman, executive director of the National Council for the Child - a nonprofit organization that lobbies for improved legislation to protect children and provides a support network for abused children - says Lema'an Achai's work and the efforts of individuals from the haredi community willing to speak out are great steps forward.
"There are serious problems with sexual abuse among the haredim in general, and particularly in Beit Shemesh," says Kadman, who has worked on several cases and has raised the problem with Welfare and Social Services Minister Isaac Herzog.
"It is very difficult for individuals to break cultural norms and get the word out about what is happening," he observes. "And sadly, when they finally pluck up the courage to do so, the authorities do not deal with it quickly enough, and then it becomes too late. People retract their statements, or the children refuse to talk about it."
However, Kadman says, "I am really happy that people are willing to speak out finally about this problem. There are lots of barriers to dealing with this problem, but there is one law for everyone, and the rabbis or religious community leaders are not exempt from that law."
A spokeswoman for the Welfare and Social Services Ministry said the authorities were familiar with the matter, and it was being dealt with.
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Read Comments (35) — Post Yours »
1
Jun 03, 2009 at 11:57 AM Anonymous Says:
Kol HaKavod that people are finally speaking up and defending the most innocent victims of all, the children.
2
Jun 03, 2009 at 11:50 AM How unique Says:
An article describing the failures of orthodox jewish communities, without any specifics due to concerns for "privacy." Privacy being an issue newspapers (particularly Israeli ones) are known to be very concerned about. I wish there was someone nearby when I opened the link, so I could bet him the moment I saw the headline that the words "tip of the iceberg" would appear somewhere in the article. I think I know why the tabloid industry is in the hole it is today - they pay professional wages to people who produce articles which look like they were randomly computer generated.
3
Jun 03, 2009 at 12:41 PM Ben Says:
only an American born and bred would tackle such an issue... the native chreidi Israeli is too scared of the establishment and shiduchim etc to voice anything.....Americans move to Israel thinking everything regarding yidishkeit and education is a utopia...and then reality hits and they realize they are second class citizens, their girls are not accepted into the bais yaakovs(I know not the issue in this article) we are just suppo$ed to give and give but we are still not good enough for them....The problem is, when you're in Kollel in Mir, brisk,etc....life is great but once you actually have to join Israeli Chareidi society with schooling,housing and the like, you realize the tremendous societal and outlook-on-life differences that exist......
It takes a tough couple to brave it out! I know I lived there for 5 years....
4
Jun 03, 2009 at 01:01 PM anonymous Says:
It seem that there are more burning problems than the separate seating on buses and despite separate entrances to restaurants and stores children are abused.
5
Jun 03, 2009 at 01:45 PM Anonymous Says:
Stam shtissim. Even if her case is true (the police didn't do anything about it and the authorities allowed the guy to keep teaching)still for every cased mishandled there are nine handled so well that no one finds out about it and the children are made safe
6
Jun 03, 2009 at 01:54 PM Rippin Pinchas Says:
"I still feel guilty that I did not pay attention and continued to send my child to [kindergarten] every day," continues Zehava
Precisely where the problem is. Unfortunately, we have a number of sickos in out midst that prey on children. The biggest issue with stopping these pieces of #$%^& is the parents. They do nothing and ignore it. If their children have problems they blame the children.
I am sure there will be many posts that it is the rabbonim's fault and they are too blame. That is a legitimate point. However, the main problem, besides for the mentally ill molester who should have a few limbs removed, is with the parents who do nothing and 10 years later complain that nothing was done.
7
Jun 03, 2009 at 02:24 PM send your kid to ramat beit shemesh Says:
“ Stam shtissim. Even if her case is true (the police didn't do anything about it and the authorities allowed the guy to keep teaching)still for every cased mishandled there are nine handled so well that no one finds out about it and the children are made safe ”
i have a bridge for you to buy and send your child or einekel to that class and lets see you say the same shtussim
8
Jun 03, 2009 at 02:21 PM Shua Says:
“ only an American born and bred would tackle such an issue... the native chreidi Israeli is too scared of the establishment and shiduchim etc to voice anything.....Americans move to Israel thinking everything regarding yidishkeit and education is a utopia...and then reality hits and they realize they are second class citizens, their girls are not accepted into the bais yaakovs(I know not the issue in this article) we are just suppo$ed to give and give but we are still not good enough for them....The problem is, when you're in Kollel in Mir, brisk,etc....life is great but once you actually have to join Israeli Chareidi society with schooling,housing and the like, you realize the tremendous societal and outlook-on-life differences that exist......
It takes a tough couple to brave it out! I know I lived there for 5 years.... ”
All the more reason for massive aliyah by the entire spectrum of Orthodox Jews in America (excepting Satmar) NOW!! We sit here, in our comfortable American golus, twiddling our thumbs waiting for Moshiach as if there is no mitzvah of yishuv ha'aretz in every generation. For the likes of me, I don't understand why our leaders--from the mo'etzes of the Agudah, to the RCA of the OU--don't follow the example of the Ramban or the students of the Vilna Gaon and declare that it's time to advance the geula and go home.
Can you imagine the positive impact of a half-million American Orthodox Jews funneling into Israeli society! Yes, we would be greatly resented by the sabras, but too bad. We have a right to come home AND to impact both Israel's religious and political culture in any way we choose. Regardless of the resentment, our impact would be monumentally for the good.
9
Jun 03, 2009 at 02:31 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Stam shtissim. Even if her case is true (the police didn't do anything about it and the authorities allowed the guy to keep teaching)still for every cased mishandled there are nine handled so well that no one finds out about it and the children are made safe ”
Dream on. This is the same line thrown out at an Agudah convention a couple of years ago. I don't know which is a sadder thought - that the speaker believed it or that he knew the truth and disregarded it for the sake of The Party.
10
Jun 03, 2009 at 02:54 PM mottel Says:
Yeah yeah yeah, it's the latest fashion accessory; horrified yelping about all those chareidi child sex abusers.
And while none of those wide-eyed, shrilling do-gooders, shaking their heads in delicious horror and revulsion, can name even one chareidi abuser (except perhaps for a couple from decades ago), at least they've shown they're open-minded enough to criticize their own community.
There is no abuse 'crisis', no 'epidemic', just a miniscule amount of people who don't control their taava and need a few good petch
11
Jun 03, 2009 at 02:40 PM daniel Says:
once again our wonderful frum teachers and educators are to scared to stand up for the emes..can you blame them?teaching children is not a labor of love anymore,it's simple a job...The Rabbonim are also out to lunch,but can you blame them?it's only their job as well..Dear parents stop trusting these people with your kids.stop trusting all these Rabbis and start trusting in your self.....that my dear parents is the last thing that they want you to do,becuase if you trust yourself they are out of a job.....
12
Jun 03, 2009 at 02:37 PM Anonymous Says:
“ All the more reason for massive aliyah by the entire spectrum of Orthodox Jews in America (excepting Satmar) NOW!! We sit here, in our comfortable American golus, twiddling our thumbs waiting for Moshiach as if there is no mitzvah of yishuv ha'aretz in every generation. For the likes of me, I don't understand why our leaders--from the mo'etzes of the Agudah, to the RCA of the OU--don't follow the example of the Ramban or the students of the Vilna Gaon and declare that it's time to advance the geula and go home.
Can you imagine the positive impact of a half-million American Orthodox Jews funneling into Israeli society! Yes, we would be greatly resented by the sabras, but too bad. We have a right to come home AND to impact both Israel's religious and political culture in any way we choose. Regardless of the resentment, our impact would be monumentally for the good. ”
Smart. Take a needless, petty swipe at another group of Jews and then talk about moshiach and advancing the geula.
By the way, who is stopping you from making Aliyah without our leaders telling you to go?
13
Jun 03, 2009 at 03:04 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Yeah yeah yeah, it's the latest fashion accessory; horrified yelping about all those chareidi child sex abusers.
And while none of those wide-eyed, shrilling do-gooders, shaking their heads in delicious horror and revulsion, can name even one chareidi abuser (except perhaps for a couple from decades ago), at least they've shown they're open-minded enough to criticize their own community.
There is no abuse 'crisis', no 'epidemic', just a miniscule amount of people who don't control their taava and need a few good petch ”
Yup. Keep your head buied in the sand.
If that is what you need to do to keep your sanity go for it.
The rest of us don't have as big a problem dealing with reality.
14
Jun 03, 2009 at 02:59 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Stam shtissim. Even if her case is true (the police didn't do anything about it and the authorities allowed the guy to keep teaching)still for every cased mishandled there are nine handled so well that no one finds out about it and the children are made safe ”
absolute non sense nothing is done the parents are threatened to keep quite as one black hat respected principle said all children are liars so i believe the rebbe he's an enabler that has allowed this to continue. time for parents to retake over our schools we pay their inflated tuitions and salaries we to have rights
15
Jun 03, 2009 at 03:24 PM Milhouse Says:
There is nothing in the article to make a rational person believe that there was any abuse. It could be that there was, and that the article omits crucial details; but the article is all we have to go on, and on its own terms there's no there there. Without solid evidence, there is no basis for firing people, let alone whipping up mass hysteria.
Have we learned nothing from the witch-hunts of the '80s and '90s? The entire country was convinced there was an epidemic of abuse going on, thousands of people had their lives turned upside down, many were jailed and many more lost their livelihoods, and at the end of the day there was NOTHING underneath it. It was ALL smoke and NO fire, just like the Salem witch-trials a few centuries earlier.
16
Jun 03, 2009 at 04:13 PM i do know why...answer to #8 Says:
“ All the more reason for massive aliyah by the entire spectrum of Orthodox Jews in America (excepting Satmar) NOW!! We sit here, in our comfortable American golus, twiddling our thumbs waiting for Moshiach as if there is no mitzvah of yishuv ha'aretz in every generation. For the likes of me, I don't understand why our leaders--from the mo'etzes of the Agudah, to the RCA of the OU--don't follow the example of the Ramban or the students of the Vilna Gaon and declare that it's time to advance the geula and go home.
Can you imagine the positive impact of a half-million American Orthodox Jews funneling into Israeli society! Yes, we would be greatly resented by the sabras, but too bad. We have a right to come home AND to impact both Israel's religious and political culture in any way we choose. Regardless of the resentment, our impact would be monumentally for the good. ”
"I don't understand why our leaders--from the mo'etzes of the Agudah, to the RCA of the OU--don't follow the example of the Ramban or the students of the Vilna Gaon and declare that it's time to advance the geula and go home."
I DO KNOW WHY..its because they are to scared,THEY HAVE NO BACK BONE...which then begs to be asked,how do they have the chutzpah to allow themselves to be called Gedolim and leaders of Am Yisroel........A leader has to be strong and go against the popular trend...These Rabbunim don't make any real decisions,they only act as if they do.it's all a game...The Maharal writes that very few people should have the title Harav before their names...today their are more people with the title Geon then their were in the times of the Geonim period....wake up Am yisroel,stop relying on these so called Rebbunim..i'm not saying that they are bad people,they just have no right to be leaders....they are not qualified...
17
Jun 03, 2009 at 04:15 PM Jewish, but not Israeli Says:
“ only an American born and bred would tackle such an issue... the native chreidi Israeli is too scared of the establishment and shiduchim etc to voice anything.....Americans move to Israel thinking everything regarding yidishkeit and education is a utopia...and then reality hits and they realize they are second class citizens, their girls are not accepted into the bais yaakovs(I know not the issue in this article) we are just suppo$ed to give and give but we are still not good enough for them....The problem is, when you're in Kollel in Mir, brisk,etc....life is great but once you actually have to join Israeli Chareidi society with schooling,housing and the like, you realize the tremendous societal and outlook-on-life differences that exist......
It takes a tough couple to brave it out! I know I lived there for 5 years.... ”
Dear Ben,
I truly admire the fact that you lived in EY for so long. ( I only visited once). Sad fact is, you’re right. Israelis don’t see other Jews as equals; they see them as opportunities to exploit. And it makes no difference if they are in the USA or living in EY; they feel they are somehow superior (lord knows why).
But what goes around comes around; they respect no one and nothing, so in the end the do not earn the respect of others. And the one who respects them the least is they themselves. That’s why abuse is so rampant; how can you respect something with no value? While everyone is a potential victim, arming yourself and your family with a healthy self-esteem is a good defense. Predators look for the weak link; we CAN fight back!
Hatzlocha Rabba
18
Jun 03, 2009 at 04:19 PM Raphael Kaufman Says:
“ There is nothing in the article to make a rational person believe that there was any abuse. It could be that there was, and that the article omits crucial details; but the article is all we have to go on, and on its own terms there's no there there. Without solid evidence, there is no basis for firing people, let alone whipping up mass hysteria.
Have we learned nothing from the witch-hunts of the '80s and '90s? The entire country was convinced there was an epidemic of abuse going on, thousands of people had their lives turned upside down, many were jailed and many more lost their livelihoods, and at the end of the day there was NOTHING underneath it. It was ALL smoke and NO fire, just like the Salem witch-trials a few centuries earlier. ”
Well, as they say, "rational people may disagree" but her story as reported seems convincing to me. It's true that there were excesses in previous years and many innocents were accused, but procedures have been altered and successful multi million dollar awards have made the authorities much more careful about who the accuse of what. Just because errors in the system do occur doesn't mean that stam accusations are false. Henry Kissinger said it. "even paranoids can have real enemies."
19
Jun 03, 2009 at 04:05 PM eitza geber Says:
I am beginning to wonder.the media makes it sound like all Charedim are abusers. It's coming out of my ears already.
20
Jun 03, 2009 at 03:47 PM Shua Says:
“ Smart. Take a needless, petty swipe at another group of Jews and then talk about moshiach and advancing the geula.
By the way, who is stopping you from making Aliyah without our leaders telling you to go? ”
1) Sorry, I made no "swipe" (chas v'shalom) petty or otherwise. Of the 3 shitahs in Rishonim, only Satmar hold of the third shitah that it is assur to make aliyah without Moshiach (as opposed to the two other shitahs which hold that the mitzvah of Yishuv Ha'aretz applies at all times). I don't think that any Satmar would be offended by my statement in the slightest. If, for example, Rav Malkiel Kotler shlita, of Lakewood would suddenly call for massive aliyah (before Moshiach) you can be sure that Satmar chassidim would NOT heed the call.
Even Rav Shach zt"l admitted that he was stumped by the Satmar position in his euolgy for the Satmar Rav zt"l in 1979 when he said: "We all felt his influence. Even those who were unable to fully comprehend his position -- and it was not an easy position to comprehend fully -- were also influence by him."
(From: "Rav Shach Speaks," Bergman Publications, 1999, p. 264)
If you were not aware of the unique Satmar position, I am happy to have been a source of information. I trust that you now understand that I made no swipe at Satmar.
2) I am on file with Nefesh B'Nefesh. Baruch Hashem, the waiting list for people requiring their financial assistance to make aliyah is growing longer. G-d willing, my turn will come very, very soon. May we all find ourselves
L'shana HAZEH b'Yerushalayim.
21
Jun 03, 2009 at 03:29 PM Simcha Says:
“ Yeah yeah yeah, it's the latest fashion accessory; horrified yelping about all those chareidi child sex abusers.
And while none of those wide-eyed, shrilling do-gooders, shaking their heads in delicious horror and revulsion, can name even one chareidi abuser (except perhaps for a couple from decades ago), at least they've shown they're open-minded enough to criticize their own community.
There is no abuse 'crisis', no 'epidemic', just a miniscule amount of people who don't control their taava and need a few good petch ”
Dear Mottel knowing Orach Chayim and Yoreh De'ah doesn't give anyone the right to educate the holy souls of Am Yisroel.....The problem is that these Rebbeim dont look at their job as a privilege....todays Rebbeim are arrogant and have no place in the class room teaching young children....if it was up to me i would take apart the whole system,its not a jewish idea to have 25-30 kids in one room...this concept of education is a Christian European model...jewish souls need to do develop their Neshomos not their intellectual capacities...the yeshivas today only care about how smart their talmidim are...It's all about competitiveness,it's not about the neshoma of the students......................Hashem should have mercy on us and save our young from teachers and principals that only care about their job and are to scared to confront the truth...
22
Jun 03, 2009 at 05:51 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Well, as they say, "rational people may disagree" but her story as reported seems convincing to me. It's true that there were excesses in previous years and many innocents were accused, but procedures have been altered and successful multi million dollar awards have made the authorities much more careful about who the accuse of what. Just because errors in the system do occur doesn't mean that stam accusations are false. Henry Kissinger said it. "even paranoids can have real enemies." ”
What makes you think the procedures in Israel today are any different than they were in the USA 15-25 years ago? Why would Israeli authorities have learned from awards made in America, to which they could never be subject?
For that matter, what makes you think Americans have learned anything, since the people responsible never had to pay any penalty themselves? Not a single one of the false accusers, or their facilitators, has had to account for themselves, pay a penny in damages, or spend a minute in prison. So what lesson should they have learned? The witch-hunt died down eventually because the public stopped buying it, not because the crusaders began to see reason. And false accusations of rape still happen every day, with nothing to stop them. Do you think the Duke lacrosse case was an exception? Far more likely that it's the rule, since there's absolutely nothing to stop anyone from making such accusations any time they please.
23
Jun 03, 2009 at 05:43 PM tzoorba Says:
“ 1) Sorry, I made no "swipe" (chas v'shalom) petty or otherwise. Of the 3 shitahs in Rishonim, only Satmar hold of the third shitah that it is assur to make aliyah without Moshiach (as opposed to the two other shitahs which hold that the mitzvah of Yishuv Ha'aretz applies at all times). I don't think that any Satmar would be offended by my statement in the slightest. If, for example, Rav Malkiel Kotler shlita, of Lakewood would suddenly call for massive aliyah (before Moshiach) you can be sure that Satmar chassidim would NOT heed the call.
Even Rav Shach zt"l admitted that he was stumped by the Satmar position in his euolgy for the Satmar Rav zt"l in 1979 when he said: "We all felt his influence. Even those who were unable to fully comprehend his position -- and it was not an easy position to comprehend fully -- were also influence by him."
(From: "Rav Shach Speaks," Bergman Publications, 1999, p. 264)
If you were not aware of the unique Satmar position, I am happy to have been a source of information. I trust that you now understand that I made no swipe at Satmar.
2) I am on file with Nefesh B'Nefesh. Baruch Hashem, the waiting list for people requiring their financial assistance to make aliyah is growing longer. G-d willing, my turn will come very, very soon. May we all find ourselves
L'shana HAZEH b'Yerushalayim. ”
Many gedolim held that yishuv eretz yisroel is not obligatory. Rav Moshe Feinstein z"l held it was a mitzva kiyumis, one that you fulfilled if you did it but you were not obligated to do.
Many gedolim had the opportunity to go but held that they could accomplish more by staying in Golus.
It is not realistic or practical to assume that the majority of Orthodox Jews could move en mass to Israel. There would be tremendous problems of parnassa and other upheavals.
The fact is that Rabbonim hold that one should not move to Israel unless they are sure that their spiritual situation will not deteriorate. Most people with children that are a little bit older face a severe chinuch and acclimatization problem and should not go.
This is a non realistic dream and if it had any chance of being realized would be actively opposed by the Leftist in Israel.
24
Jun 03, 2009 at 05:20 PM boruch Says:
“ only an American born and bred would tackle such an issue... the native chreidi Israeli is too scared of the establishment and shiduchim etc to voice anything.....Americans move to Israel thinking everything regarding yidishkeit and education is a utopia...and then reality hits and they realize they are second class citizens, their girls are not accepted into the bais yaakovs(I know not the issue in this article) we are just suppo$ed to give and give but we are still not good enough for them....The problem is, when you're in Kollel in Mir, brisk,etc....life is great but once you actually have to join Israeli Chareidi society with schooling,housing and the like, you realize the tremendous societal and outlook-on-life differences that exist......
It takes a tough couple to brave it out! I know I lived there for 5 years.... ”
the chraidim in the USA act the same way to people who they believe are below their standers....but when it happens to you,i agree that its not that much fun....
25
Jun 03, 2009 at 06:30 PM Shua Says:
“ Many gedolim held that yishuv eretz yisroel is not obligatory. Rav Moshe Feinstein z"l held it was a mitzva kiyumis, one that you fulfilled if you did it but you were not obligated to do.
Many gedolim had the opportunity to go but held that they could accomplish more by staying in Golus.
It is not realistic or practical to assume that the majority of Orthodox Jews could move en mass to Israel. There would be tremendous problems of parnassa and other upheavals.
The fact is that Rabbonim hold that one should not move to Israel unless they are sure that their spiritual situation will not deteriorate. Most people with children that are a little bit older face a severe chinuch and acclimatization problem and should not go.
This is a non realistic dream and if it had any chance of being realized would be actively opposed by the Leftist in Israel.
”
Tzoorba:
The mitzvah of yishuv ha'aretz is quite complicated. Rabbi Zev Leff has a marvelous review of the entire subject matter in an essay entitled "Where is the Religious Aliya from the West?" (I am told that VIN does not allow links to other websites, but if you Google the aforementioned title in quotation marks you will be able to read the article in it's entirety). He addresses all of the shitos in favor of aliyah and the objections thereto. It is a must read for those interested in the subject.
For purposes of this comment I will note the following quote regarding the question which is the title of Rabbi Leff's essay [the capitalizations are for emphasis]:
"It was Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld who addressed these words [i.e. where is the religious aliya from the west?] some sixty years ago, to Rav Yitzchok Breuer. The rav of Yerushalayim further told the Agudah leader, 'Now I understand the words of musaf for yom tov: Because of our sins were we exiled from our country’ - by HaShem; `and we were distanced from our Land’ - THIS WE HAVE DONE VOLUNTARILY.
"Another quote from Rav Sonnenfeld is perhaps even more pointed: “Many times have I directed that the religious Jews in the diaspora be instructed that ANYONE WHO HAS THE ABILITY TO COME TO ERETZ YISRAEL AND DOESN'T, WILL HAVE TO ACCOUNT FOR HIS FAILURE IN THE FUTURE WORLD.”
Powerful words, these. The Chazon Ish zt"l was similarly dismayed at the lack of aliya on the part of religious Jews from America. The entire article is quite lengthy but well worth the effort to read.
26
Jun 03, 2009 at 06:55 PM Anonymous Says:
“ 1) Sorry, I made no "swipe" (chas v'shalom) petty or otherwise. Of the 3 shitahs in Rishonim, only Satmar hold of the third shitah that it is assur to make aliyah without Moshiach (as opposed to the two other shitahs which hold that the mitzvah of Yishuv Ha'aretz applies at all times). I don't think that any Satmar would be offended by my statement in the slightest. If, for example, Rav Malkiel Kotler shlita, of Lakewood would suddenly call for massive aliyah (before Moshiach) you can be sure that Satmar chassidim would NOT heed the call.
Even Rav Shach zt"l admitted that he was stumped by the Satmar position in his euolgy for the Satmar Rav zt"l in 1979 when he said: "We all felt his influence. Even those who were unable to fully comprehend his position -- and it was not an easy position to comprehend fully -- were also influence by him."
(From: "Rav Shach Speaks," Bergman Publications, 1999, p. 264)
If you were not aware of the unique Satmar position, I am happy to have been a source of information. I trust that you now understand that I made no swipe at Satmar.
2) I am on file with Nefesh B'Nefesh. Baruch Hashem, the waiting list for people requiring their financial assistance to make aliyah is growing longer. G-d willing, my turn will come very, very soon. May we all find ourselves
L'shana HAZEH b'Yerushalayim. ”
Still no reason to take a cheap shot at Satmar when the point would have been just as valid (or not) without mentioning them at all.
I know a few Satmar chevrah personally and one thing I can tell you abou them - If they were so sure that there was a mitzvah to move to EY or anywhere else in the world they wouldn't be waiting for Mefesh B'Nefesh or anyone else to pay their way. They would have put together the funds and been gone a long time ago.
Looks like the old European joke is stil true - What is a Tzioni? A Tzioni is a yid from England who raises money from a yid in America to send a yid from Poland to go live in Palestine.
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Jun 03, 2009 at 10:37 PM tzoorba Says:
“ Tzoorba:
The mitzvah of yishuv ha'aretz is quite complicated. Rabbi Zev Leff has a marvelous review of the entire subject matter in an essay entitled "Where is the Religious Aliya from the West?" (I am told that VIN does not allow links to other websites, but if you Google the aforementioned title in quotation marks you will be able to read the article in it's entirety). He addresses all of the shitos in favor of aliyah and the objections thereto. It is a must read for those interested in the subject.
For purposes of this comment I will note the following quote regarding the question which is the title of Rabbi Leff's essay [the capitalizations are for emphasis]:
"It was Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld who addressed these words [i.e. where is the religious aliya from the west?] some sixty years ago, to Rav Yitzchok Breuer. The rav of Yerushalayim further told the Agudah leader, 'Now I understand the words of musaf for yom tov: Because of our sins were we exiled from our country’ - by HaShem; `and we were distanced from our Land’ - THIS WE HAVE DONE VOLUNTARILY.
"Another quote from Rav Sonnenfeld is perhaps even more pointed: “Many times have I directed that the religious Jews in the diaspora be instructed that ANYONE WHO HAS THE ABILITY TO COME TO ERETZ YISRAEL AND DOESN'T, WILL HAVE TO ACCOUNT FOR HIS FAILURE IN THE FUTURE WORLD.”
Powerful words, these. The Chazon Ish zt"l was similarly dismayed at the lack of aliya on the part of religious Jews from America. The entire article is quite lengthy but well worth the effort to read.
”
Thank you for this very enlightening article.
However, I wonder why Rav Moshe wouldn't make some mention of an opinion like this while explaining that the essence of the mitzva?
In any case, it doesn't appear that there is a great movement by any of the Orthodox divisions to have people move there now so that a mass migration is not likely.
I need to investigate this further.
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Jun 03, 2009 at 08:38 PM Shua Says:
“ Still no reason to take a cheap shot at Satmar when the point would have been just as valid (or not) without mentioning them at all.
I know a few Satmar chevrah personally and one thing I can tell you abou them - If they were so sure that there was a mitzvah to move to EY or anywhere else in the world they wouldn't be waiting for Mefesh B'Nefesh or anyone else to pay their way. They would have put together the funds and been gone a long time ago.
Looks like the old European joke is stil true - What is a Tzioni? A Tzioni is a yid from England who raises money from a yid in America to send a yid from Poland to go live in Palestine. ”
First you accuse me of "petty swiping" at Satmar. Now you follow up with your "cheap shot" accusation, insisting that "the point would have been just as valid (or not) without mentioning them at all." I respectfully disagree.
When I espoused "massive aliyah by the ENTIRE spectrum of Orthodox Jews in America" I realized that I needed to make an exception. I am sure you would agree that Satmar is included in the spectrum of American Orthodox Jewry, yes? And I'm sure you would agree that it would be incorrect to include Satmar in any call to aliyah prior to Moshiach, yes? And so I made a simple, factual exception. Why you insist on calling this "petty swiping" or a "cheap shot" is beyond me. If someone else reading this thread can explain this characterization of my words, I would appreciate the input.
Insofar as your insinuation (a pejorative one at that) that I'm "waiting for Nefesh B'Nefesh to pay my way," well, what can I say without becoming too personal about myself on a much read website. I will make an exception and tell you the following: I am 60 years old and recently disabled from an hereditary condition forcing me to retire from my job. I have no income and little savings. Unfortunately, the city of New York (as per its usual bureaucratic red tape) is taking forever to process my application for a disability pension. I pray to the Ribbono Shel Olam that the process will conclude soon, so that I can live out the remainder of my years in Eretz Yisrael on my pension. I would, however, need assistance to cover the considerable costs of aliyah. To help people like me accomplish the dream of aliyah is exactly what Nefesh B'Nefesh was founded to do. I am sorry if you have a problem with that.
Hatzlacha to you. G-d bless.
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Jun 04, 2009 at 05:13 AM Anonymous Says:
“ First you accuse me of "petty swiping" at Satmar. Now you follow up with your "cheap shot" accusation, insisting that "the point would have been just as valid (or not) without mentioning them at all." I respectfully disagree.
When I espoused "massive aliyah by the ENTIRE spectrum of Orthodox Jews in America" I realized that I needed to make an exception. I am sure you would agree that Satmar is included in the spectrum of American Orthodox Jewry, yes? And I'm sure you would agree that it would be incorrect to include Satmar in any call to aliyah prior to Moshiach, yes? And so I made a simple, factual exception. Why you insist on calling this "petty swiping" or a "cheap shot" is beyond me. If someone else reading this thread can explain this characterization of my words, I would appreciate the input.
Insofar as your insinuation (a pejorative one at that) that I'm "waiting for Nefesh B'Nefesh to pay my way," well, what can I say without becoming too personal about myself on a much read website. I will make an exception and tell you the following: I am 60 years old and recently disabled from an hereditary condition forcing me to retire from my job. I have no income and little savings. Unfortunately, the city of New York (as per its usual bureaucratic red tape) is taking forever to process my application for a disability pension. I pray to the Ribbono Shel Olam that the process will conclude soon, so that I can live out the remainder of my years in Eretz Yisrael on my pension. I would, however, need assistance to cover the considerable costs of aliyah. To help people like me accomplish the dream of aliyah is exactly what Nefesh B'Nefesh was founded to do. I am sorry if you have a problem with that.
Hatzlacha to you. G-d bless. ”
With all due empathy for your situation, I am sorry, but to my mind you continue to defend a poorly considered, out of context and uncalled for verbal drive-by pot-shot at Satmar, non-charaidi Orthodoxy's favorite dart board.
In the context of real-life policy making one would need to make an exception for those holding unshakable alligance to teachings irreconcibly incompatible with a public initiative.
However, in the context of espousing a utopian idea to which will frankly have no tangible or measuable effect on the speaker's/writer's intended audiance, the mentioning one group that will not subscribe when no others will either was totally pointless.
Obviously, this woult not have been the case had you mentioned all the other groups that would likely ignore a rabbinic call for mass Aliyah at this time: Chabad, Lakewood, the Modern Orthodox, the mojority of those earning over $250K and civil servants with 1 - 19 years left to full pension retirement.
I hope this doesn't touch on a sore spot, but please allow me to re-phrase my previous statement: I know a few Satmar chevrah personally and I assure you that were they to belive that they were required by halachah to move to EY or anywhere else for that matter, it wouldn't take them sixty years to do so.
That is not to say that Your's Truly has been any better at preparing to make Aliyah - which is why I never preach on the subject.
30
Jun 03, 2009 at 11:55 PM DizzyIzzy Says:
“ All the more reason for massive aliyah by the entire spectrum of Orthodox Jews in America (excepting Satmar) NOW!! We sit here, in our comfortable American golus, twiddling our thumbs waiting for Moshiach as if there is no mitzvah of yishuv ha'aretz in every generation. For the likes of me, I don't understand why our leaders--from the mo'etzes of the Agudah, to the RCA of the OU--don't follow the example of the Ramban or the students of the Vilna Gaon and declare that it's time to advance the geula and go home.
Can you imagine the positive impact of a half-million American Orthodox Jews funneling into Israeli society! Yes, we would be greatly resented by the sabras, but too bad. We have a right to come home AND to impact both Israel's religious and political culture in any way we choose. Regardless of the resentment, our impact would be monumentally for the good. ”
Shalom Chabibi!! What part of Israel do you live in? Maybe we're neighbors!!
31
Jun 04, 2009 at 09:46 AM moish Says:
“ All the more reason for massive aliyah by the entire spectrum of Orthodox Jews in America (excepting Satmar) NOW!! We sit here, in our comfortable American golus, twiddling our thumbs waiting for Moshiach as if there is no mitzvah of yishuv ha'aretz in every generation. For the likes of me, I don't understand why our leaders--from the mo'etzes of the Agudah, to the RCA of the OU--don't follow the example of the Ramban or the students of the Vilna Gaon and declare that it's time to advance the geula and go home.
Can you imagine the positive impact of a half-million American Orthodox Jews funneling into Israeli society! Yes, we would be greatly resented by the sabras, but too bad. We have a right to come home AND to impact both Israel's religious and political culture in any way we choose. Regardless of the resentment, our impact would be monumentally for the good. ”
yishuv eretz yisroel is a very great mitzva for an individual,but to organise aliya en masse would transgess the shevua shelo ya'alu b'choimo.
32
Jun 04, 2009 at 10:09 AM Shua Says:
“ With all due empathy for your situation, I am sorry, but to my mind you continue to defend a poorly considered, out of context and uncalled for verbal drive-by pot-shot at Satmar, non-charaidi Orthodoxy's favorite dart board.
In the context of real-life policy making one would need to make an exception for those holding unshakable alligance to teachings irreconcibly incompatible with a public initiative.
However, in the context of espousing a utopian idea to which will frankly have no tangible or measuable effect on the speaker's/writer's intended audiance, the mentioning one group that will not subscribe when no others will either was totally pointless.
Obviously, this woult not have been the case had you mentioned all the other groups that would likely ignore a rabbinic call for mass Aliyah at this time: Chabad, Lakewood, the Modern Orthodox, the mojority of those earning over $250K and civil servants with 1 - 19 years left to full pension retirement.
I hope this doesn't touch on a sore spot, but please allow me to re-phrase my previous statement: I know a few Satmar chevrah personally and I assure you that were they to belive that they were required by halachah to move to EY or anywhere else for that matter, it wouldn't take them sixty years to do so.
That is not to say that Your's Truly has been any better at preparing to make Aliyah - which is why I never preach on the subject.
”
Good morning.
> "you continue to defend a poorly considered, out of context and uncalled for verbal drive-by pot-shot at Satmar, non-charaidi Orthodoxy's favorite dart board."
>>I am an (American) baal t'shuva/ agudist/charaidi.
> "petty swiping," "cheap shot," and now "drive-by pot shot."
>> Okay. I can't debate this anymore. If that's how you need to categorize my exclusion of Satmar from the parsha of aliyah prior to Moshiach, so be it.
> "in the context of espousing a utopian idea to which will frankly have no tangible or measurable effect on the speaker's/writer's intended audiance"
>> Oh my. Do you consider the mitzvah of yishuv ha'aretz a "utopian" idea? Two out of three shitos in Rishonim consider this mitzvah as applying to Klal Yisrael in every generation, at all times. The venereable Rav of Yerushalayim, Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld zt"l asked incredulously of Rav Yitzchok Breuer (the leader of Agudah at the time): "Where is the religious aliya from the West?" [see my comment at post #25 regarding a comprehensive essay by Rabbi Zev Leff, analyzing the mitzvah of yishuv ha'aretz and how the mitzvah is incumbent upon almost all of us in the diaspora today. P.S. You'll need some courage to read the article as it might evoke a strong cognitive dissonant reaction].
>"Obviously, this would not have been the case had you mentioned all the other groups that would likely ignore a rabbinic call for mass Aliyah at this time
...etc."
>> Ah, now you've nailed it. This is exactly my point. In light of Rabbi Leff's persuasive analysis, none of these other groups k'halacha or hashkafa have any rationale for ignoring the mitvah of yishuv ha'aretz the way we do. Satmar has what to hang their hat on; they are bound by the shitah of their Rebbe (even if Rav Shach zt"l himself had difficulty understanding that shitah). But the rest of us? According to Rabbi Leff (and it was his article which swayed my own opinion a number of years ago) we've got little to stand on to support our wholesale rejection of aliyah. As Rav Sonnenfeld said, we reject the idea "voluntarily" and, being without any valid excuse, we will have to "account for our failure" to make aliyah before the Beis Din shel Emes in Olam Haba.
Obviously, the leaders of the remainder of the Orthodox Jewish spectrum that do not hold by the Satmar Rebbe's shitah, have (in my opinion) some explaining to do for their failure to act. My only explanation: they know that they should be calling for aliyah en mass, but they are afraid that their constituents are so solidly enmeshed in golus that we just won't respond. Hey, if we ignored Rav Sonnenfeld, and ignored the Chazon Ish, and ignored the Pischei Teshuva, the Avnei Nezer, the Chafetz Chaim and the Gerrer Rebbe... then whose going to listen to the leaders of today?
33
Jun 04, 2009 at 11:22 AM shimon taylor Says:
I feel sure that gentle smacking should be considered normal, in chinuch. Atleast from parents. But love and respect are better, when it works.
However, crossing certain lines, is INCOMPREHENDABLE.
There needs to be a way that children can know if and when lines are crossed, or that parents and helpers should immeadiately realize if something is out of hand, and know how to get it out of the children.
But NOT that children should know they can always get a teacher or parents into prison, at will.
Teachers and rebbes should not live and work under terror and at the mercy of the children they teach.
Neither should their parents be,from their own children, which HAS been going on sometimes.
34
Jun 04, 2009 at 01:03 PM dovid Says:
“ I feel sure that gentle smacking should be considered normal, in chinuch. Atleast from parents. But love and respect are better, when it works.
However, crossing certain lines, is INCOMPREHENDABLE.
There needs to be a way that children can know if and when lines are crossed, or that parents and helpers should immeadiately realize if something is out of hand, and know how to get it out of the children.
But NOT that children should know they can always get a teacher or parents into prison, at will.
Teachers and rebbes should not live and work under terror and at the mercy of the children they teach.
Neither should their parents be,from their own children, which HAS been going on sometimes. ”
The whole system of Chinuch is retarded ....like someone said above in a comment,it is not a Jewish Torah model,but rather a Christian European one...frum kids in yeshivas today are trained much like secular society trains their children....being smart or knowing the most Gemorah or mishah does not make you a better yid,it makes you a smarter yid...the problem is that the yeshivas feel that in order for them to be respected they need a nice building.Now what rich person would give money to a yeshiva if they weren't a productive one.rich people like to give money to yeshivas that produce intelligent bochrim,not fine simple bochrim.we need more simple yidden in the world.we have enough intelligent people in the world,look where it got us too.being jewish is not about being the best,its about being simple and humble,and that only comes when you're not competing to be the best.all the time..Hashem loves us we dont need to prove to him all the time how great and smart we are..
35
Aug 30, 2009 at 03:41 PM Anonymous Says:
all the rabbis who cannot admit to what is going on are ruining the jewish peoples future because these innocent children are the future. so all you rabbis stand up and try to help your community get back together or just as easy you can watch it all fall apart.