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England - Shidicham Difficulties after New Visa Law |
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The age for a spouse being granted permission to live in Britain was raised from 18 to 21 in a move designed mainly to combat forced marriages among the Asian community.
But representatives of the Charedi community, whose members traditionally marry young, say that this is stopping young people from Israel or the US coming to marry in the UK.
Chanoch Kesselman, executive co-ordinator of the Union of Orthodox Hebrew Congregations, said that an alternative idea had been put to the Home Office.
An authorised rabbi and marriage registrar would interview both partners and if satisfied that the marriage was taking place with “the full and free consent” of both, he would sign a document to that effect.
“This document could then be presented to the Home Office to grant a visa to enter the country for the purposes of marriage,” he said. “The Home Office are working on the practicalities of such a system, without prejudicing other minority groups.”
A Home Office spokesman said: “We have listened to the Jewish community’s concerns about the impact of the marriage visa age increase and their suggestion for an alternative system. Ministers are examining the proposal and this consideration is ongoing.”
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Read Comments (30) — Post Yours »
1
Jun 06, 2009 at 10:35 PM Anonymous Says:
Why would they want to have 18 year olds marrying in any event. There are plenty of responsible orthodox bochurim and girls over 21. This is totally unnecessary and make yidden look like they are from third world country where children are marriedn in their teens.
2
Jun 06, 2009 at 10:58 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Why would they want to have 18 year olds marrying in any event. There are plenty of responsible orthodox bochurim and girls over 21. This is totally unnecessary and make yidden look like they are from third world country where children are marriedn in their teens. ”
Why not? If someone has found the right zivug at 17 or 18, why should they wait until 21? What is gained by it? In any case, it is still a halacha that a man must get married by 20; "ben esrim lirdof", and if he is not Hashem says "may his bones swell". Now for many nowadays this is not practical, they haven't learned enough, etc., but how do you dismiss an open and undisputed halacha as "totally unnecessary"? If someone finds himself able to keep this halacha, should he refuse, for fear of what some ignorant snobs will say?!
And what on earth has happened to your geon yaacov, that you are worried about the opinions of those who look down on people "from third world country where children are marriedn in their teens"? Why should anybody in his right mind care about those idiots' opinions? How can you have so little self-esteem that you look to such people for validation? Your great-grandparents were probably married in their teens; were they some sort of primitives?
3
Jun 06, 2009 at 10:51 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Why would they want to have 18 year olds marrying in any event. There are plenty of responsible orthodox bochurim and girls over 21. This is totally unnecessary and make yidden look like they are from third world country where children are marriedn in their teens. ”
My friend just got engaged he is 21 and got engaged to a 20 yr old girl. Is that forbidden according to you? Would you rather people engage in premarital relations like most of the secular world instead?
4
Jun 06, 2009 at 10:48 PM still single Says:
there are bigger shidduch related problems here in america!!!!!!!!!!!!
5
Jun 06, 2009 at 10:42 PM Anonymous Says:
Why ar you so desperate to hear yourself speak that you talk when you have nothing to add to the conversation?
6
Jun 06, 2009 at 11:06 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Why would they want to have 18 year olds marrying in any event. There are plenty of responsible orthodox bochurim and girls over 21. This is totally unnecessary and make yidden look like they are from third world country where children are marriedn in their teens. ”
zois hatoirah loi sehei michlefes!!!!!!
we are proud torah jewes. the mishnah says ben shemoinah esrah lechipah and we will miten oibershtens hilf go that way till moshiach will come soon
7
Jun 06, 2009 at 11:13 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Why would they want to have 18 year olds marrying in any event. There are plenty of responsible orthodox bochurim and girls over 21. This is totally unnecessary and make yidden look like they are from third world country where children are marriedn in their teens. ”
Sorry you r worng see the gemareh kidishin 21:
8
Jun 06, 2009 at 11:12 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Why not? If someone has found the right zivug at 17 or 18, why should they wait until 21? What is gained by it? In any case, it is still a halacha that a man must get married by 20; "ben esrim lirdof", and if he is not Hashem says "may his bones swell". Now for many nowadays this is not practical, they haven't learned enough, etc., but how do you dismiss an open and undisputed halacha as "totally unnecessary"? If someone finds himself able to keep this halacha, should he refuse, for fear of what some ignorant snobs will say?!
And what on earth has happened to your geon yaacov, that you are worried about the opinions of those who look down on people "from third world country where children are marriedn in their teens"? Why should anybody in his right mind care about those idiots' opinions? How can you have so little self-esteem that you look to such people for validation? Your great-grandparents were probably married in their teens; were they some sort of primitives?
”
Yes, of course, the younger the better. Even assuming they have the maturity to marry (which they don't) most of these "children" haven't finished college or trade school by the age of 18, have no parnassah, and will simply start having babies because of peer pressure. Your view of the world might have been appropriate in a shteitel in the 18th century but not in the 21st century UK>
9
Jun 06, 2009 at 11:15 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Why not? If someone has found the right zivug at 17 or 18, why should they wait until 21? What is gained by it? In any case, it is still a halacha that a man must get married by 20; "ben esrim lirdof", and if he is not Hashem says "may his bones swell". Now for many nowadays this is not practical, they haven't learned enough, etc., but how do you dismiss an open and undisputed halacha as "totally unnecessary"? If someone finds himself able to keep this halacha, should he refuse, for fear of what some ignorant snobs will say?!
And what on earth has happened to your geon yaacov, that you are worried about the opinions of those who look down on people "from third world country where children are marriedn in their teens"? Why should anybody in his right mind care about those idiots' opinions? How can you have so little self-esteem that you look to such people for validation? Your great-grandparents were probably married in their teens; were they some sort of primitives?
”
nishtane hateva is the answer . people in the olden days were able to marry young . in todays day its not so .
10
Jun 07, 2009 at 01:15 AM Milhouse Says:
“ nishtane hateva is the answer . people in the olden days were able to marry young . in todays day its not so . ”
In what way has human biology changed in the last century?
11
Jun 07, 2009 at 07:33 AM Anonymous Says:
Let me tell u about this ugly country england no matter how old ur or the visa u get,if u have money$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ u can get married if u have torah with no $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
U should get a visa to enter isreal or the usa were torah is top of line in 21st century versios england were its only the $$$$$$$$
12
Jun 07, 2009 at 07:06 AM Anonymous Says:
It doesn't matter what we say. The proposal will pass, without the "jewish" ammendment, & we will have to live with it. The gov't will have to make the same allowances for all religons & races. Doing that will totally negate the reason for the proposal in the first place. A Chinese official & a marriage resitrar will have the same chance to "change" it.
13
Jun 07, 2009 at 05:31 AM Anonymous Says:
“ In what way has human biology changed in the last century? ”
Let live this swollen Shoite alone, let him marry in veisen tzap arein... BTW I heard of people trying to get Hungarian documents as their parents or grand parents are originally prewar Hungarians, and with such documents they can live permanent in UK as EU citizens.
14
Jun 07, 2009 at 03:00 AM matzahlocal101 Says:
“ nishtane hateva is the answer . people in the olden days were able to marry young . in todays day its not so . ”
It's really funny that the only people that say that are the ones that don't marry at eighteen.
15
Jun 07, 2009 at 02:58 AM matzahlocal101 Says:
“ Why would they want to have 18 year olds marrying in any event. There are plenty of responsible orthodox bochurim and girls over 21. This is totally unnecessary and make yidden look like they are from third world country where children are marriedn in their teens. ”
Of course, Jews have been doing this for millienia with great success, but modern western secular values, with higher divorce rates, lower reproduction rates, and other accompanying avairos that real frum people would tremble from are more palatable to you than a mishneh (the oral law, G-d's Torah, remember him? I Didn't think so.) BTW the "shidduch crisis" is not in Satmar, Viznitz, Belz, Skverr, Pupa, Bobov, etc. In the modern orthodox community that puts off marrigae until 30. Keep looking.
16
Jun 07, 2009 at 02:02 AM Anonymous Says:
“ In what way has human biology changed in the last century? ”
you must be blind not to see. we are way less mature today at age 18 then we were in biblical times
17
Jun 07, 2009 at 08:29 AM Milhouse Says:
“ you must be blind not to see. we are way less mature today at age 18 then we were in biblical times ”
What have biblical times got to do with it? I ask again, in what way has human biology changed in the last century?
18
Jun 07, 2009 at 09:03 AM Dov Says:
“ What have biblical times got to do with it? I ask again, in what way has human biology changed in the last century? ”
Life expectancy has been extended almost 25% and in general people all over wait longer. Makes better marriages too.
19
Jun 07, 2009 at 09:25 AM Anonymous Says:
“ What have biblical times got to do with it? I ask again, in what way has human biology changed in the last century? ”
in bilical times and times of the gemara people married at a much earlier age because they were more mature and had jobs . today it does not exist . u must mature before you gert married
20
Jun 07, 2009 at 09:46 AM Milhouse Says:
“ Life expectancy has been extended almost 25% and in general people all over wait longer. Makes better marriages too. ”
What has life expectancy got to do with delaying marriage?
21
Jun 07, 2009 at 09:45 AM Milhouse Says:
“ in bilical times and times of the gemara people married at a much earlier age because they were more mature and had jobs . today it does not exist . u must mature before you gert married ”
Again, what have biblical and gemara times got to do with it? I'm asking in what way has NATURE changed in the last century.
22
Jun 07, 2009 at 09:57 AM Dov Says:
“ What has life expectancy got to do with delaying marriage? ”
In the old days people had to rush to marry since they had fewer fertile years and fewer work years. Now fertility and life expectancy have been extended. Also the need for more education in our time - those who marry early generally have less education (see the NY Times article quoted today on VIN)
23
Jun 07, 2009 at 10:37 AM Milhouse Says:
“ In the old days people had to rush to marry since they had fewer fertile years and fewer work years. Now fertility and life expectancy have been extended. Also the need for more education in our time - those who marry early generally have less education (see the NY Times article quoted today on VIN) ”
The reason given in halacha for marrying early has nothing to do with the number of fertile years or work years. And once someone hit puberty, they were unlikely to die during their fertile years anyway, other than in childbirth. So why would that cause them to marry early? If you feel you need more education, fine, but what business have you got criticising those who don't feel the need for it? They do well enough without it, and if they are able to marry at 18 or 20 who are you to say they shouldn't?
24
Jun 07, 2009 at 11:59 AM Anonymous Says:
“ In what way has human biology changed in the last century? ”
The only way that biology has changed in the last century is the recognition that children under the age of 18 do not have the maturity to marry and even by 21 they rarely have the life skills. You have posted this shaiylah 3 times so perhaps the other way biology has changed is that we now recognize disorders such as you exhibit and by'irtzah hasehm you will have a ref'uah shelamah.
25
Jun 07, 2009 at 12:10 PM Anonymous Says:
In addition to more fertile years and longer life expenctancy, in biblical times and premodern times, a huge percentage of children died before reaching 5. Therefore you have to have more babies and therefore start younger to increase the odds of having some reach adulthood. Also, years ago, a man could provide for a wife and children by herding sheep, farming, fishing, working as a carpenter, etc. as they had already spent many years learning these skills. Now, how many 18 year olds have the skills and ability to support a family?
26
Jun 07, 2009 at 12:13 PM Anonymous Says:
“ The reason given in halacha for marrying early has nothing to do with the number of fertile years or work years. And once someone hit puberty, they were unlikely to die during their fertile years anyway, other than in childbirth. So why would that cause them to marry early? If you feel you need more education, fine, but what business have you got criticising those who don't feel the need for it? They do well enough without it, and if they are able to marry at 18 or 20 who are you to say they shouldn't? ”
It's a fair matter for criticism if those people and their children are going to rely on public benefits (or tzedakah that should be going to truly needy - i.e. the aged, disabled). If they are going to be willing to clean houses, work on farms, etc. to support their families, like so many immigrants in the U.S. do for the first generation, then fine.
27
Jun 07, 2009 at 02:07 PM Milhouse Says:
“ The only way that biology has changed in the last century is the recognition that children under the age of 18 do not have the maturity to marry and even by 21 they rarely have the life skills. You have posted this shaiylah 3 times so perhaps the other way biology has changed is that we now recognize disorders such as you exhibit and by'irtzah hasehm you will have a ref'uah shelamah. ”
And so long as you keep repeating the same nonsense and refuse to answer the question, I will keep asking it. A change in your OPINION (or, as you call it, "recognition") is not a change in biology. You say they're not ready; they say they are, and their parents and everybody who knows them agrees, so on what do you base your opinion? If your great-grandmother was ready to get married at 15 or younger, who are you to say that these chassidishe girls are not ready at 20?
28
Jun 07, 2009 at 01:09 PM Charles Hall Says:
“ In what way has human biology changed in the last century? ”
Earlier puberty. This has been documented in many countries.
29
Jun 07, 2009 at 03:57 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Earlier puberty. This has been documented in many countries. ”
I was waiting for that. Earlier puberty is a reason to marry EARLIER, not later!
30
Jun 07, 2009 at 06:22 PM Anonymous Says:
“ in bilical times and times of the gemara people married at a much earlier age because they were more mature and had jobs . today it does not exist . u must mature before you gert married ”
And if someone is mature at 18, should he be forced to stay unmarried till 21 just because Mr/Ms Anonymous #19's maturity was somewhat delayed?