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Israel - Halacha: Emergency Personnel to Answer Phone Calls with Their Teeth |
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The cell phones will be placed in a special holder that keeps the folded devices open at all times, with a thin metallic arm sticking out that they can pull with their teeth to communicate with MDA stations.
According to Rabbi Levi Yitzhak Halperin, head of Jerusalem's Scientific and Technological Institute for Halacha, such a mechanism for using the phone to save lives on holy days is permissible according to Jewish law.
MDA recently began replacing their old beepers with Mirs cell phones using a global positioning satellite (GPS) system so staffers and volunteers can find locations more quickly. Those who are closest to the person who needs help will automatically be informed.
While most MDA personnel were happy with the improved technology, the haredim among them were leery of it because use of a GPS-equipped cell phone could, they argued, result in the desecration of Shabbat and holidays.
Some asked to continue to use the old beepers, whose messages could be viewed without manipulating the devices.
Halperin's permission to use the Mirs phone with the metallic arm on holy days calmed the MDA personnel, and they agreed to use them by clenching their teeth.
MDA director-general Eli Bin said the Mirs phones can "significantly cut the amount of time it takes for ambulance teams to arrive and save lives.
"MDA, as one of the most advanced lifesaving organizations in the world, is committed to using the technology, while ensuring that it doesn't upset the lifestyles and customs of its [staffers and] volunteers," he said.
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Read Comments (62) — Post Yours »
1
Jun 07, 2009 at 06:44 PM Milhouse Says:
R Halperin is probably the world's biggest expert in this field. His psak should be acceptable to everybody. But I wonder how long it will take for the usual suspects to chime in: the amei ho'oretz wannabe-chasidim for whom no rov is frum enough, and the apikorsim who don't see the need to worry about shabbos in the first place. When people who could just take the easy route out by saying "pikuach nefesh", instead consult a qualified posek and go out of their way to reduce the chilul shabbos to the absolute minimum necessary, that is a true kiddush haShem.
2
Jun 07, 2009 at 06:37 PM Anonymous Says:
Saving a life trumps shabbos observance! Crazy stuff they are doing.
3
Jun 07, 2009 at 07:31 PM Anonymous Says:
“ R Halperin is probably the world's biggest expert in this field. His psak should be acceptable to everybody. But I wonder how long it will take for the usual suspects to chime in: the amei ho'oretz wannabe-chasidim for whom no rov is frum enough, and the apikorsim who don't see the need to worry about shabbos in the first place. When people who could just take the easy route out by saying "pikuach nefesh", instead consult a qualified posek and go out of their way to reduce the chilul shabbos to the absolute minimum necessary, that is a true kiddush haShem. ”
except that pikuach nefesh trumps shabbos period. even if you want to argue about non-jews, in ey, almost everyone is a jew, so that argument doesn't hold up. of course, you should try to minimize chillul shabbos to the extent that you can- such as using speed dial instead of punching out all the numbers, or doing things b'derech shinui, but but when those options don't exist, then you do what must be done to save the life. this is not apikorsus, this is the halacha, plain and simple.
4
Jun 07, 2009 at 07:27 PM John Says:
I can't believe that we have such wonderous innovations. The shabbos lamp, the bug checker and now this...Moshaich is coming anytime now
5
Jun 07, 2009 at 06:57 PM Charles Hall Says:
I don't understand. My wife is a doctor; she and ever other doctor I know who has to answer the phone for medical emergencies does so in the usual manner, and every rabbi I've heard heard of discuss this with a doctor has said that this is correct.
6
Jun 07, 2009 at 06:54 PM Anonymous Says:
it is clear as daylight that it is 100percent permissable to b mechaleh shabbos to save a life. that is a basic concept of judisim. no rabbi today is wiser then any rabbi of the past . we have become a cult and have lost our way.
7
Jun 07, 2009 at 07:48 PM Anonymous Says:
“ R Halperin is probably the world's biggest expert in this field. His psak should be acceptable to everybody. But I wonder how long it will take for the usual suspects to chime in: the amei ho'oretz wannabe-chasidim for whom no rov is frum enough, and the apikorsim who don't see the need to worry about shabbos in the first place. When people who could just take the easy route out by saying "pikuach nefesh", instead consult a qualified posek and go out of their way to reduce the chilul shabbos to the absolute minimum necessary, that is a true kiddush haShem. ”
Rav Milhouse; you are right; the amei ho'oretz wannabe-chasidim (including most of the great rabbonim who believe the Torah means what is says) accept the notion of pikuach nefesh, unlike you who goes out of his way to disrepect every rebbe and lay person who doesn't agree with you. Most of the VIN readers have learned that you will say the opposite of what ultimately emerges as the correct view under halacha. It would be a true kiddush hashem if real mamash legitimate amei ho'oretem such as yourself would just stop making such nareshkeit arguments. The fact that these hareidim even have to stop and think about this sc'hdus suggests that they not be allowed by MDA to be first-responders.
8
Jun 07, 2009 at 07:03 PM Zindel Says:
From the psukim that I know that R' Moishe Z"L paskend he wouldn't agree to doing this with a SHINU unless its deffinitely not pikuach nefesh, or a skunas eiver.
9
Jun 07, 2009 at 06:49 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Saving a life trumps shabbos observance! Crazy stuff they are doing. ”
And sho'nuff, here come the apikorsim. What did I say?
10
Jun 07, 2009 at 06:42 PM Anonymous Says:
can we get more stupid then this. this is most idiotic thing I have heard
11
Jun 07, 2009 at 08:26 PM Anonymous Says:
I guess I have been sinning all of these years. Had I known I would never have answered the phone on shabbos. Some of my patients may have even survived without my intervention.
12
Jun 07, 2009 at 08:23 PM Anonymous Says:
“ And sho'nuff, here come the apikorsim. What did I say? ”
Azoy. Anyone who disagrees with you is either an am' horetz or an apikores or maybe just both (a stupid heretic). Perhaps its you who is the fool.
13
Jun 07, 2009 at 08:23 PM EMT-J Says:
When I was a member of Hatzalah in NYC (before moving away), we worked thus: If it's Shabbas and you get a call, Poof! It's instantly Tuesday. Until you get there and can assess the situation, you *have* *to* believe that it's truly a matter of Pikuach Nefesh and you likewise *have* *to* break Shabbas. You should operate as if it were Tuesday and not worry about what day of the week it was.
14
Jun 07, 2009 at 08:21 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I don't understand. My wife is a doctor; she and ever other doctor I know who has to answer the phone for medical emergencies does so in the usual manner, and every rabbi I've heard heard of discuss this with a doctor has said that this is correct. ”
The RS"O is just shaking his head.
15
Jun 07, 2009 at 08:20 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I don't understand. My wife is a doctor; she and ever other doctor I know who has to answer the phone for medical emergencies does so in the usual manner, and every rabbi I've heard heard of discuss this with a doctor has said that this is correct. ”
But now they don't have to ... now they have a chance to be frummer then the next guy.
16
Jun 07, 2009 at 08:15 PM Pashuteh Yid Says:
I never heard of adding any time delay onto a possibility of pikuach nefesh. If it takes any more time this way, I am sure the poskim would tell people to do it the regular way.
As far as apikursim go, it is interesting that the Rambam says that anybody who would put Shabbos over pikuach nefesh is an apikorus. Yep, that's right. Uses the exact word apikorus for someone who is too machmir on Shabbos at the potential expense of a life.
17
Jun 07, 2009 at 08:02 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Rav Milhouse; you are right; the amei ho'oretz wannabe-chasidim (including most of the great rabbonim who believe the Torah means what is says) accept the notion of pikuach nefesh, unlike you who goes out of his way to disrepect every rebbe and lay person who doesn't agree with you. Most of the VIN readers have learned that you will say the opposite of what ultimately emerges as the correct view under halacha. It would be a true kiddush hashem if real mamash legitimate amei ho'oretem such as yourself would just stop making such nareshkeit arguments. The fact that these hareidim even have to stop and think about this sc'hdus suggests that they not be allowed by MDA to be first-responders. ”
Even though Millhouse is clearly wrong on this one, he often provides a contrary interpretation that has much merit. In this case, he may have meant to say that we should be respectful of jews who want to be especially careful to avoid being mechalel shabbos but being involved in hatzalah is not the place for such frummies.
18
Jun 07, 2009 at 07:59 PM rebbetzin hockstein Says:
I don't understand what the big deal is. when I am busy, or my hands are full, I often flip open my cell phone with my teeth. This for me is not a shinui! Rather, this is how I answer my phone on a regular Tuesday in Cheshvan.....wondering if that means that if there is a problem and I need to use the phone for pikuach nefesh, chas v'sholom on Shabbos/Yom Tov, I should use it in a regular fashion since for me THAT would be a shinui??? Go know! better to ask a Rav.
19
Jun 07, 2009 at 07:52 PM Anonymous Says:
#2 I would only guess that you are a well verst posek and great musmach and that's how u have come to your grand peak on vin that it's crasy stuff how dare anyone even think u haven't crackt a book In years what chutzpah of this lil frumahken who just couse they learnd once upon a time think they know halacha have they not read vin have they not heard of your wisdome dear 2 let me give u free advice reading vin all day dose not make you a posek so shut up and try to comment on somthing you might have a shyuchus to and get a life insted of just criticesing rabonim all day
20
Jun 07, 2009 at 09:08 PM Milhouse Says:
“ When I was a member of Hatzalah in NYC (before moving away), we worked thus: If it's Shabbas and you get a call, Poof! It's instantly Tuesday. Until you get there and can assess the situation, you *have* *to* believe that it's truly a matter of Pikuach Nefesh and you likewise *have* *to* break Shabbas. You should operate as if it were Tuesday and not worry about what day of the week it was. ”
Whoever told you that "it's instantly Tuesday" was simply wrong. That is not the halacha. It's still shabbos, and therefore you must do as few issurim as you can without endangering the patient. If you must pick two figs from a tree, and the tree has a lot of single figs each on its own stem, and one bunch of three on the same stem, you must pick that one, so as to avoid having to pick two stems. And that principle applies throughout. Any time you can minimize an issur without endangering the patient you must do so.
21
Jun 07, 2009 at 09:06 PM No lights and sirens on the block Says:
Is a child with high temp, child fell crying, child with possible broken leg, child with dislocation, or an adult with a kidney attack or "my grandmother is weaker then usual today" back since yesterday,
real LIFE SAVING emergencies ? ? ? ?
22
Jun 07, 2009 at 09:01 PM Milhouse Says:
“ I never heard of adding any time delay onto a possibility of pikuach nefesh. If it takes any more time this way, I am sure the poskim would tell people to do it the regular way.
As far as apikursim go, it is interesting that the Rambam says that anybody who would put Shabbos over pikuach nefesh is an apikorus. Yep, that's right. Uses the exact word apikorus for someone who is too machmir on Shabbos at the potential expense of a life. ”
This is how the posek on these matters has told people to do it. Why would you think it would delay treatment?
23
Jun 07, 2009 at 08:56 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Rav Milhouse; you are right; the amei ho'oretz wannabe-chasidim (including most of the great rabbonim who believe the Torah means what is says) accept the notion of pikuach nefesh, unlike you who goes out of his way to disrepect every rebbe and lay person who doesn't agree with you. Most of the VIN readers have learned that you will say the opposite of what ultimately emerges as the correct view under halacha. It would be a true kiddush hashem if real mamash legitimate amei ho'oretem such as yourself would just stop making such nareshkeit arguments. The fact that these hareidim even have to stop and think about this sc'hdus suggests that they not be allowed by MDA to be first-responders. ”
"Most of the VIN readers have learned that you will say the opposite of what ultimately emerges as the correct view under halacha."
Really? Why don't you give a few examples where that has happened.
It seems to me that you're the one who keeps inventing "gadolim" out of your diseased mind, promoting complete nobodies to that rank, or falsely attributing whatever position you like to genuine ones.
24
Jun 07, 2009 at 08:52 PM Milhouse Says:
“ except that pikuach nefesh trumps shabbos period. even if you want to argue about non-jews, in ey, almost everyone is a jew, so that argument doesn't hold up. of course, you should try to minimize chillul shabbos to the extent that you can- such as using speed dial instead of punching out all the numbers, or doing things b'derech shinui, but but when those options don't exist, then you do what must be done to save the life. this is not apikorsus, this is the halacha, plain and simple. ”
Except that pikuach nefesh DOESN'T "trump shabbos period". It is doche shabbos, not matir it. And therefore, as you yourself admit, you should try to minimise chilul shabbos to the extent that you can. The old beepers allowed EMTs to respond without pushing anything; the new beepers don't, so they involve an unnecessary chilul shabbos. On the other hand, they make things easier and more efficient, and that itself could potentially make a difference in some cases. So R Halperin permitted using them with a shinuy. Since they can be used just as well with a shinuy, there's no heter to do so without one.
25
Jun 07, 2009 at 08:49 PM HVAC Member Says:
As a Hatzolah member, all I can say is that; we were taught while answering and responding to a call - NOT to do anything b'shenoiy. Do everything as if it were a regular day. (While driving back home or to the garage, is another story, every neighborhood has their own p'sak for that.)
The Shulchan Aruch says "Bigodol Shebyisroel".
If it is pikuach nefesh (or a sofek) it is a mitzvah to do everything in its normal way, and it is DOICHE SHABBOS. ( I am purpousley NOT using the word michalel shabbos)
26
Jun 07, 2009 at 08:49 PM Anonymous Says:
im really cofused as to what the fuss is all about. theyve devised a way to save lives and minimize chillul shabbos. isnt that a good thing? and im assuming it is just a efficient. in fact from the article it seems that its quicker than the old system.
27
Jun 07, 2009 at 08:47 PM Milhouse Says:
“ I don't understand. My wife is a doctor; she and ever other doctor I know who has to answer the phone for medical emergencies does so in the usual manner, and every rabbi I've heard heard of discuss this with a doctor has said that this is correct. ”
Shabbos is dechuya for pikuach nefesh, not hutra. Therefore if the issur can be minimised it must be.
This is especially so in a case like the current one, where the old tech still works, and while the new one makes things easier and more efficient it isn't actually required for pikuach nefesh.
28
Jun 07, 2009 at 10:43 PM Anonymous Says:
H memebers must always carry there radios on them on shabbas and number two when they are driving back from a call in lakewood guyim drive there cars home
29
Jun 07, 2009 at 10:43 PM Anonymous Says:
they should use their toes!!
30
Jun 07, 2009 at 10:40 PM Not Fooled Says:
Millhouse, you have truly flipped your lid and you are an apikores yourself, as R. Moshe Feinstein dealt with these matters many years ago way before the internet and allowed Haatzolah members (and other medical personnel) to desecrate Shabboss to save a life. Who are these 'rabbis' of today anyways? Some loudmouth ganovim 33 concert ban rabbis? Ones who are more interested in money than kashrut? (OU personnel 'rabbis')...Ones who turn away from real problems like molestation? It is a case of the blind leading blind, and you are blind.. Hook sink and anchor! Time for you to leave the Internet and enough with your stupidity! Leave us alone already! Go back to Lakewood!
31
Jun 07, 2009 at 10:06 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Is a child with high temp, child fell crying, child with possible broken leg, child with dislocation, or an adult with a kidney attack or "my grandmother is weaker then usual today" back since yesterday,
real LIFE SAVING emergencies ? ? ? ? ”
if you even have to hesitate in answering "yes" please don't volunteer for shabbos duty
32
Jun 07, 2009 at 10:00 PM grateful patient Says:
I had an accident on Shabbos recently. We weren't sure if we should call Hatzalah (not for us being Mechalel Shabbos but to avoid causing Hatzalah members to be so.) So we started to walk to get advice from a local doctor. By chance we met a Hatzalah member & asked his advice. He told us quite categorically we had no business playing G-d & called for back up.
What appeared to be a small cut (very deep, yes, but quite small) turned out to be...a severed artery! I was hospitalized & had surgery. If we would have waited 8 hours till after Shabbos I could have lost my hand. The hand surgeon who was called in to see me in the ER was very concerned, so much so he temporarily stitched it immediately, without waiting for the anesthesia to work. (Oh yes, it hurt!!!) Yes, apparently it was pikuach nefesh, even though I may not have died from blood loss &/or infection.
I thank G-d for Hatzalah & for all medical staff. Because of them, idiots like me are here to tell the tale. With absolutely no disrespect to Rabbi Halperin, if someone takes on the responsibility of saving lives, as an earlier poster said...Shabbos becomes Tuesday. If someone feels that answering the phone on Shabbos or Yom Tov is wrong, maybe this isn't for them. But I suspect that every EMT/Hatzlah/MDA member feels that if a call comes, he must go. That is the extent of their considerable devotion.
You are beyond heroes.
33
Jun 07, 2009 at 09:51 PM whattt??? Says:
This is crazy, this is not judaism, this is not Torah, this is a new religion. why are these rabbis doing this, they are not following the code of jewish law which states that the laws of the holy shabbos are pushed aside to save a life, thats it, so why are they tring to make it work within the frame of shabbos if the law itself sais to push it aside????????
34
Jun 07, 2009 at 09:30 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Shabbos is dechuya for pikuach nefesh, not hutra. Therefore if the issur can be minimised it must be.
This is especially so in a case like the current one, where the old tech still works, and while the new one makes things easier and more efficient it isn't actually required for pikuach nefesh. ”
There is no need to worry about "minimizing" the issur when it comes to pikuach nefesh. Even taking precious seconds in a life or death emergency to contemplate how to mininimize the non-existant issur you create in your foolish paskining is forbidden. Saving a life takes precedence over EVERYTHING and unless you are hashem, you don't know in an emergency how serious the problem is. Please sir: don't play god..your not that smart!!!
35
Jun 07, 2009 at 10:51 PM Milhouse Says:
“ As a Hatzolah member, all I can say is that; we were taught while answering and responding to a call - NOT to do anything b'shenoiy. Do everything as if it were a regular day. (While driving back home or to the garage, is another story, every neighborhood has their own p'sak for that.)
The Shulchan Aruch says "Bigodol Shebyisroel".
If it is pikuach nefesh (or a sofek) it is a mitzvah to do everything in its normal way, and it is DOICHE SHABBOS. ( I am purpousley NOT using the word michalel shabbos) ”
"Begodol shebyisroel" is correct; you do not have to look for a koton or a goy. But anything that you can do with a shinuy, or in some other way minimise the issur without endangering the patient, you must do that way.
36
Jun 07, 2009 at 11:19 PM Milhouse Says:
“ There is no need to worry about "minimizing" the issur when it comes to pikuach nefesh. Even taking precious seconds in a life or death emergency to contemplate how to mininimize the non-existant issur you create in your foolish paskining is forbidden. Saving a life takes precedence over EVERYTHING and unless you are hashem, you don't know in an emergency how serious the problem is. Please sir: don't play god..your not that smart!!! ”
Hmmm, on one side I have the Shulchon Oruch and all the poskim, and on the other side I have...some commenter on VIN who's too cowardly to even use a consistent pseudonym. An anonymous commenter's word is worth nothing at all. You are utterly wrong.
Even in a case of pikuach nefesh, when one is allowed to be mechalel shabbos, one MUST minimise the issur to whatever extent is possible without endangering the patient. That means that IF it's a situation where every second is critical, AND using a shinuy will take significantly longer, THEN the shinuy is effectively impossible. But if the shinuy will not take any longer, or if the delay is short enough not to endanger the patient's life, then one must use it.
37
Jun 07, 2009 at 11:06 PM Milhouse Says:
“ This is crazy, this is not judaism, this is not Torah, this is a new religion. why are these rabbis doing this, they are not following the code of jewish law which states that the laws of the holy shabbos are pushed aside to save a life, thats it, so why are they tring to make it work within the frame of shabbos if the law itself sais to push it aside???????? ”
Because you're an idiot who doesn't understand the words "push aside". To push something aside means that it is NOT suspended; it's still in force, and may only be transgressed to the extent necessary. Shabbos does NOT become a Tuesday, it remains Shabbos, and one must minimise the chilul shabbos however much is possible without endangering the patient. That is Judaism. That is what the Torah says. This is not rocket science; take down a Shulchon Oruch and learn the halachos. If you're incapable of learning Shulchon Oruch on your own, then don't give your opinions against those who have done so, and especially against world-class poskim such as R Halperin.
38
Jun 07, 2009 at 11:00 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Millhouse, you have truly flipped your lid and you are an apikores yourself, as R. Moshe Feinstein dealt with these matters many years ago way before the internet and allowed Haatzolah members (and other medical personnel) to desecrate Shabboss to save a life. Who are these 'rabbis' of today anyways? Some loudmouth ganovim 33 concert ban rabbis? Ones who are more interested in money than kashrut? (OU personnel 'rabbis')...Ones who turn away from real problems like molestation? It is a case of the blind leading blind, and you are blind.. Hook sink and anchor! Time for you to leave the Internet and enough with your stupidity! Leave us alone already! Go back to Lakewood! ”
Wow, we're really playing the geography game today. One person thinks I'm from Monsey, another thinks Lakewood; I wonder where I will be from tomorrow. Where In The World Is Milly's Verandah?
Oh, and by the way, you're an idiot.
39
Jun 07, 2009 at 10:57 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Is a child with high temp, child fell crying, child with possible broken leg, child with dislocation, or an adult with a kidney attack or "my grandmother is weaker then usual today" back since yesterday,
real LIFE SAVING emergencies ? ? ? ? ”
I'm not a doctor, but as far as I know these are all POTENTIALLY life-and-death emergencies, and should be treated as such until a doctor has ruled out any danger to life. Once a doctor has done so, then the range of chilul shabbos that is permitted becomes much more restricted. But until you know for sure, you have to play it safe and treat it as pikuach nefesh. In particular, halacha regards children as very vulnerable, to the point where it seriously considers the possibility that a child could die of fright, and so one may be mechalel shabbos to rescue a child from a situation where an adult, who is able to understand that he is not in danger, would be left alone until after shabbos.
40
Jun 07, 2009 at 11:56 PM Anonymous Says:
“ "Begodol shebyisroel" is correct; you do not have to look for a koton or a goy. But anything that you can do with a shinuy, or in some other way minimise the issur without endangering the patient, you must do that way. ”
The problem is that the extra couple of seconds it can take for the average person to either 1) think of a shinui in a situation and 2) actually perform a melacha through a shinui can mean the difference between life and death. So as long as that possibilty exists, using a shinui would delay the response time and thus should not be permitted. If it can be argued that using a shinui in a certain situation does not add on even one second, then maybe it's called for, but I don't think this is the case, and reason #1 would still apply. Therefore, I believe that Rav Moshe and others advise doing everything in its normal fashion without worrying about a shinui, since you have 100% permission from the Torah to do so, why try to be "frummer" which in this case can actually result in a delayed response time and potential complications or loss of life. Obviously once Hatzola is driving on the way back from such a situation we can have a discussion on how best to do it (goy, shinui, etc) but in a response situation, I believe the concept of shinui in general will cause a delay for most people and should not be advocated. I wonder how this Rav would address this problem, since according to halacha, any delay is assur in these situations.
41
Jun 08, 2009 at 03:07 AM EMT-J Says:
“ Is a child with high temp, child fell crying, child with possible broken leg, child with dislocation, or an adult with a kidney attack or "my grandmother is weaker then usual today" back since yesterday,
real LIFE SAVING emergencies ? ? ? ? ”
For an EMT, if it was scary enough or worrisome enough for the person to call Hatzolah or 911 in the first place, then, that's an emphatic "YES"! Until an EMT can get to the scene and assess the patient him/herself, that patient is assumed to be in imminent danger of life. For each of the scenarios you listed, I could give you a real-life example of that symptom/problem being a life-threatening injury or illness.
42
Jun 08, 2009 at 02:47 AM Anonymous Says:
I hope if I have an emergency on Shabbat someone secular is on duty! How utterly ridiculous! This technology is for pikuei nefesh. Get out of the 18th century and realize that GPS doesn't "violate" anything except possibly privacy. If charedim are so concerned and if MDA can't/won't schedule around their Shabbat observance, then they shouldn't serve. If the halacha regarding an inanimate object is more important than the halachot concerning human life, they need to spend the time they would have given to MDA learning more.
I think Rabbi Halperin gave a fair psak. That it is even necessary, however, is very sad. How do these haredim who are so particular suggest frum EMT's operate the technology they use? How does one "ventilate" a patient with their teeth?
Oy va voy!
43
Jun 08, 2009 at 02:25 AM PulpitRabbi Says:
Professor Avraham Sofer Avraham (Nishmas Avruhem) reported a discussion he had with Rav Shloime Zalmen about using "Gram-o-phones," meaning specially conceived telephones that were answered with a gromme. RSZA didn't like them. If there is a real emergency - pikiach neifesh -, or even a sofek pikiach neifesh, there is no need for one, and otherwise, there is no hetter.
He also once asked whether one should remove his bigdei Shabbes and hide his yarmelke when driving to the hospital, whereupon RSZA responded that one should go with tallis and shtraimel [of course provided one doesn't spend extra time putting them on, so as not to endanger the patient through unnecessary waiting].
44
Jun 08, 2009 at 06:24 AM An MD Says:
1) There are some minor variations in the opinions of the poskim (Ashkenazic and Sefardic) as to whether it is preferable to use a 'shinuy' in such cases. Many of the people who have posted take for granted that what was written in the article is 100% accurate and then proceed to bash this posek, or make fun of that issue, or whatever. These posters have too much time on their hands.
2) The author wrote a poorly worded article which made orthodox Jews look like religious fanatics and fools. Some of those who post here should take a few minutes to craft a well worded post on www.jpost.com explaining what a shinuy is and the importance of the Shabbos, but also questioning the veracity of the author. Realize that like most secular Israeli media the JPost seems invested in making haredi Jews look like fools. Why play into that? Why not help create a kiddush Hashem by explaining what was ommitted in the article?
3) The area of medical halacha is one of the most complex in all of halacha. Many physicians and nurses simply break halacha, week after week, without knowledge thereof. Many have gotten used to doing things a certain way and are not interested in learning that what they are doing is 100% wrong or warrants improvement. For example, some otherwise seemingly frum doctors drive to and from hospitals on a regular basis (sometimes every week) on Shabbos, even when there are no cases of pikuach nefesh. Others withdraw care on end of life cases. Tov she'be'rofim le'geheinom. None of these people will never be criticized by anyone, even their shul rav, so they will never change even one iota.
Few are the rabbonim who are completely comfortable in this area of halacha and know when major mistakes are being made--and fewer still are those who will challenge, privately and publicly, the practices of their gvirim.
4) The only way to improve one's halachic observance is to sit and learn medical halacha. There are yarchei kallahs and learning opportunities in this regard. For example, there is the www.j-c-r.org website, run by a talmid muvhak of Rav Elyashiv, which reportedly features shiurim by the gedolei poskim.
5) There are other learning programs as well. For a more modern orthodox approach, for example, there are OU programs and the Schlesinger Institute runs programs. There is also Rav Shafran's approach. There are a myriad of sources.
6) Simply 'reading' a sefer such as the NISMAT AVRAHAM is not sufficient as there are many areas not covered and many advances occur which cannot be covered in this sefer, particularly the older editions.
7) Let's avoid mocking comments and realize that gedolei poskim are working on solutions to modern technological dilemmas. They need to be approached--and to be listened to.
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Jun 08, 2009 at 06:22 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Is a child with high temp, child fell crying, child with possible broken leg, child with dislocation, or an adult with a kidney attack or "my grandmother is weaker then usual today" back since yesterday,
real LIFE SAVING emergencies ? ? ? ? ”
You would leave your child's leg broken and unset until after Shabbat? That is disgusting and child abuse. A kidney attack, high temp and even a fall can indeed be life threatening. Unless you are a doctor, don't go making such assumptions. As for Bubbe being weaker, are you sure it isn't a heart attack or stroke?
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Jun 08, 2009 at 06:11 AM Anonymous Says:
“ it is clear as daylight that it is 100percent permissable to b mechaleh shabbos to save a life. that is a basic concept of judisim. no rabbi today is wiser then any rabbi of the past . we have become a cult and have lost our way. ”
correct no rabbi today is wiser than the past and centainly us commonsfolk, so we need da'as torah in our times to understand what was meant back then. Of course even though 'pikuach nefesh' is 'doicheh shabbos', obviously the minimal is prefereble!
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Jun 08, 2009 at 06:46 AM Anonymous Says:
To all the groisse chachomim, do you even know what the issue is? It is not referring when the members are responding to a call let alone on a call. The MIRS systens sends out a signal when there is a call. To anyone in the vicinity. That could be 50 members. Does every Hatzoloh member go on every call or even respond to every alert? Of course not, because it is not a call they would be responding to. The same thing here, they would have to be do an act that is similar to chilul shabbos every time there is a beep just to see if it even applicable to them. Most alerts are not. What percentage of alerts do you think each volunteer responds to? On the old system they could see if it was applicable by just looking with out having to be doche shabbos. Now they hae to respond to turn on the phone or open it just to see if there is anything they can help with. This could mean opening the phone 50 times an shabbos to see maybe it is a case they can help with.
The issue is not responding to a call with all haste, it is the overwhelming majority of cases that are not applicable. For that R Halperin devised a method.
Sure it is like Tuesday when reponding to a call, but when not it is shabbos
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Jun 08, 2009 at 08:35 AM gadolwannabe Says:
Chosid shoteh!
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Jun 08, 2009 at 08:58 AM Anonymous Says:
Why must everything be a debate. Is being an observant Jew a contest of who is the most frum. The saving of a Jewish life and the rendering of aid to a fellow Jew in need as quickly as possible regardless of what day of the week it is should be the main issue. G-D bless MDA and Hatzolah!!
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Jun 08, 2009 at 09:07 AM me Says:
“ You would leave your child's leg broken and unset until after Shabbat? That is disgusting and child abuse. A kidney attack, high temp and even a fall can indeed be life threatening. Unless you are a doctor, don't go making such assumptions. As for Bubbe being weaker, are you sure it isn't a heart attack or stroke? ”
What is interesting is that the halacha is that a broken bone is considered pikuach nefesh. The halacha considers it, but in 2009, we know that a broken bone is not really life threatening.
Also, for those people that run around on Shabbos to find someone to ask, your Rav will be punished for this. If you take a look at the Shulchan Aruch it mentions that a Rav whose community does something stupid like this gets punished.
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Jun 08, 2009 at 09:48 AM Anonymous Says:
if you can throw rocks and dirty diapers at police on shabbos according to rabbi weis from the eida, then forsure its muttar lechatchilla to answer a phone in a normal manner, in a life threatning emergency situation
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Jun 08, 2009 at 10:17 AM moish Says:
It is clear that there would be no increased pikuach nefesh, otherwise Rav Halperin wouldn't have paskened so, and for all the commenters that say one shouldn't even take the time to think of a shinuy, here they don't need to think of it, as they have been told so beforehand.
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Jun 08, 2009 at 11:16 AM Raphael Kaufman Says:
“ I never heard of adding any time delay onto a possibility of pikuach nefesh. If it takes any more time this way, I am sure the poskim would tell people to do it the regular way.
As far as apikursim go, it is interesting that the Rambam says that anybody who would put Shabbos over pikuach nefesh is an apikorus. Yep, that's right. Uses the exact word apikorus for someone who is too machmir on Shabbos at the potential expense of a life. ”
The time delay is very short, perhaps no more than a second or two. What make it a gramma is that it is random. The duration is governed by a function generator that varies the delay randomlly within the maximum range.
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Jun 08, 2009 at 12:24 PM moish Says:
“ And sho'nuff, here come the apikorsim. What did I say? ”
everything you have written on this post is correct, except for your giving the title of apikorus, if they made a mistake in halocho why does that make them an apikorus?
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Jun 08, 2009 at 11:27 AM Raphael Kaufman Says:
“ Wow, we're really playing the geography game today. One person thinks I'm from Monsey, another thinks Lakewood; I wonder where I will be from tomorrow. Where In The World Is Milly's Verandah?
Oh, and by the way, you're an idiot. ”
Now, Millie and the rest of you. You all can disagree without calling each other names. Play nice. Also, can you or any of the rest of the usual suspects describe what specific issur is involved in using a cell phone on Shabbos?
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Jun 08, 2009 at 04:28 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Professor Avraham Sofer Avraham (Nishmas Avruhem) reported a discussion he had with Rav Shloime Zalmen about using "Gram-o-phones," meaning specially conceived telephones that were answered with a gromme. RSZA didn't like them. If there is a real emergency - pikiach neifesh -, or even a sofek pikiach neifesh, there is no need for one, and otherwise, there is no hetter.
He also once asked whether one should remove his bigdei Shabbes and hide his yarmelke when driving to the hospital, whereupon RSZA responded that one should go with tallis and shtraimel [of course provided one doesn't spend extra time putting them on, so as not to endanger the patient through unnecessary waiting]. ”
That's ridiculous. Even if there's no pikuach nefesh, there are many things that can be done for a choleh. If reducing the issur makes the phone usable for a choleh she'ein bo sakono then it's done its work. And even if there is pikuach nefesh, it is an OBLIGATION to reduce the issur as much as possible, so if a gromo-phone is available it must be used rather than a normal phone.
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Jun 08, 2009 at 04:35 PM Milhouse Says:
“ everything you have written on this post is correct, except for your giving the title of apikorus, if they made a mistake in halocho why does that make them an apikorus? ”
Making a mistake in halocho doesn't make anyone an apikores. NOT CARING about the halocho does. The mockers here aren't debating a question of halocho, they're rejecting the entire principle that halocho matters in medical emergencies, that there can be cases where the halocho dictates not to treat something and we must follow the halocho.
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Jun 08, 2009 at 05:02 PM An M.D. Says:
I reiterate that medical halacha is perhaps the most complex of all areas of halacha (Jewish law). Clearly, this article was designed to provoke ridicule. I doubt they would have done the same thing if this was a Hindu or Buddhist issue; they just want to continue to portray orthodox Jews as neanderthals, primitives, etc.
In matters of life and death, as I recall the Shulchan Aruch faults "whoever asks" and says "whoever" answers is disgusting. What this means is that the person who hesitates in order to ask a question of a rabbi about a matter of potential life and death has done a grievous sin--akin to the chasid shoteh, ie pious idiot (who refuses to rescue a drowning woman because he does not wish to touch a woman). The rabbi is faulted because he failed to educate his congregation beforehand about these laws.
Now, I ask you: How many times has your shul rav ever taught or spoken about these laws?
IF the answer is none or very rarely, what does that say about how the author of the Shulchan Aruch would view your rav?
PLEASE ask that your rav talk about these topics, give shiurim, and become educated himself about this vital area of halacha.
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Jun 08, 2009 at 10:32 PM Not Just That... Says:
“ Millhouse, you have truly flipped your lid and you are an apikores yourself, as R. Moshe Feinstein dealt with these matters many years ago way before the internet and allowed Haatzolah members (and other medical personnel) to desecrate Shabboss to save a life. Who are these 'rabbis' of today anyways? Some loudmouth ganovim 33 concert ban rabbis? Ones who are more interested in money than kashrut? (OU personnel 'rabbis')...Ones who turn away from real problems like molestation? It is a case of the blind leading blind, and you are blind.. Hook sink and anchor! Time for you to leave the Internet and enough with your stupidity! Leave us alone already! Go back to Lakewood! ”
You mean the OU personnel who but your yiddishkeit to shame?
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Jun 08, 2009 at 10:25 PM Not Just That... Says:
“ Rav Milhouse; you are right; the amei ho'oretz wannabe-chasidim (including most of the great rabbonim who believe the Torah means what is says) accept the notion of pikuach nefesh, unlike you who goes out of his way to disrepect every rebbe and lay person who doesn't agree with you. Most of the VIN readers have learned that you will say the opposite of what ultimately emerges as the correct view under halacha. It would be a true kiddush hashem if real mamash legitimate amei ho'oretem such as yourself would just stop making such nareshkeit arguments. The fact that these hareidim even have to stop and think about this sc'hdus suggests that they not be allowed by MDA to be first-responders. ”
You're giving him creds, cuz you're bashing him when he's RIGHT. Of course Pikuach Nefesh is docheh Shabbos. But Shabbos is nidcheh, per R' SH"Z Auerbach, and anything you can do in advance of Shabbos to minimize chilul is required per his psak. The reason we do everything "normally" (Shabbos is Tuesday) is because we don't want to delay response. But anyone trained to operate the new phones as described, and drilled in the procedure, will not be wasting any time at all. Therefore, this minimization of chilul is not at odds with pikuach nefesh docheh Shabbos.
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Jun 09, 2009 at 03:02 AM Five Towns Resident Says:
Some poskim feel the need to reinvent the wheel when it comes to Halacha. Leave Hatzolah alone. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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Jun 09, 2009 at 05:29 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Some poskim feel the need to reinvent the wheel when it comes to Halacha. Leave Hatzolah alone. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. ”
On that principle they shouldn't have introduced the new beepers that created a new shayla. But they did, so that shayla needed answering.