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Abraham Chen with five of his six children. Eldar, left, who has Down’s Syndrome, is at the center of the family’s immigration case. Courtesy Chen family
On a typical weekday evening, the children surround their father with news and questions as he walks in from a day’s work, and Zvia puts the finishing touches on dinner. After being playfully hoisted by Abraham, boys Naore, 7, and Maoz, 2, join Eldar, their 6-year-old brother who has Down’s Syndrome, to flock to their guest with a barrage of conversation.
Eldar repeatedly asks the visitor his name until, murmuring it out loud, he finally gets it right. While the
oldest child, Shlomo, 17, typically stays out late with his job or his studies, the remaining kids tend dutifully to their homework, chores and bedtime duties with the lightest of parental nudges.
Except for all the yarmulkes on all the small bobbing heads, the scene is as stereotypically American as Hollywood or the Saturday Evening Post could portray it.
Next week, the Chens will find out if they will be able to replay this scene in just this way and in just this place for very much longer. Their long-awaited moment of reckoning will happen in a hearing room of the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service in Lower Manhattan, under the gavel of Judge Steven Abrams.
Though hopeful, the Chens, parents of a deeply affected special-needs child, know they are battling dauntingly long odds in their fight to win permanent residency status on the basis of their hardship plea. For them, immigration court has come to feel more like a wild-card casino than a dispassionate hall of justice.
Abraham and Zvia Chen, both 42, grew up in Israel, while their children, including Eldar, the center of their case, were all born in the United States. According to the elder Chens, their lawyer and other experts familiar with their plight, their status should have been resolved in their favor long ago.
Instead, their case has been suspended in legal limbo for five years.
“We’re having all these difficulties,” says Abraham Chen. “And I can’t find a good reason for them.”
If they lose their case on June 16, Abraham and Zvia Chens will undergo deportation to Israel and be compelled to take their American citizen children with them. The Chens and the experts they have consulted believe the entire family — most of all Down’s-affected Eldar — will face a painfully uncertain future.
From a casual glance the Chens are unexceptional, just eight more anonymous bodies passing through downtown Manhattan’s always- bustling Federal Plaza, home to immigration courts, in zealous search of an officially stamped tenure inside the United States. Last year alone over 20,000 immigrants won or lost legal American residency there.
Nevertheless, the case of the Chens is one more reminder to American Jews that the ever-roiling immigration controversy touches people much like themselves.
In addition, the Chens’ plight highlights the cracks in the naturalization system carved by blind chance. Unlike trial-based criminal and civil courts, which rely heavily on citizen juries to decide cases, immigration courts, falling under administrative procedures, entrust their rulings to lone judges. Assignment of judges to cases are random, and they can make a lifetime of difference to a person or, in the case of the Chens, an entire family.
“In immigration proceedings the judges have a lot of discretion, in some cases too much discretion, especially in hardship pleas,” contends Irina Matiychenko, director of the Immigration Protection Unit of the New York Legal Assistance Group. “It can lead to some outrageous decisions. You’re lucky to get a good judge.”
The Chens’ attorney, David Frenkel, is stunned by the case thus far. “In 30 years of practice I’ve represented thousands of immigrant clients,” he says, “and this case stands out.”
A spokeswoman for the federal immigration service said that Judge Abrams is barred from commenting on pending cases.
Abraham — “Avi” to friends — and Zvia Chen made their way from Israel to New York City in 1991. For several years Abraham rode a series of renewable work visas, ultimately finding his way to his present niche of contracting and plumbing work, running a staff of three or four employees out of a single pickup truck. In the meantime Zvia resigned herself to her undocumented immigrant status.
Though the religiously Orthodox Chens went well past the legal 10-year threshold for green-card eligibility, they paid their taxes and stayed out of legal trouble. Eventually, they were compelled to apply for permanent residency status. After a series of bureaucratic bumps, that day came in 2004, when their case fell under the review of Judge Abrams.
The judge, unpersuaded by the parents’ long strife-free history or by Eldar’s special needs, or by the more conventional vulnerabilities of their other children, all of which he said could be adequately served in Israel, denied the Chens’ bid for a green card. The famly then appealed the decision to the immigration service’s review panel in Washington, which returned the case to Judge Abrams for additional fact finding, and then they hired Frenkel, their new lawyer.
The case has so far cost the single-paycheck Chens a comparatively modest but still ill-affordable $7,000.
“Next year,” says Avi Chen, “my wife and me will be living in this country longer than we lived in Israel.”
Attorney Frenkel admits he is as baffled as his clients by the government’s actions so far. “Everyone who has seen this case says it should have been a slam dunk,” he says. “I can’t remember a single case anywhere where residency status wasn’t granted to parents of a child with a severe incapacity. A Down’s Syndrome child of Eldar’s age would be faced with the prospect of learning a whole new language, which is quite simply beyond his means.”
Other government panels in recent years have ruled in favor of green card-seeking immigrant families who had appealed for hardship exceptions for their own special-needs children. Frenkel cites three such precedents — two in California, one in Texas — that he hopes will guide Judge Abrams’ hand.
Eldar, at the core of the Chens’ case, exhibits extremely limited speech and a tenuously developing intelligence that wholly depends, in his father’s words, on “what you put into it.” Moreover, say the Chens and their advocates, in their new life in Israel Abraham will face big obstacles in securing steady work, especially in today’s blighted economy.
For the normally developing Chen children, relocation to Israel could prove dire. But for Eldar, the move, those around him fear, would prove devastating.
Dr. Vivian Wachsman, former director of the Center for Child Development at Queens Hospital Center, submitted expert reports to the court on the Chens’ behalf. “Eldar has made enormous progress under his school programs so far,” she says. “Aside from the dislocation factor, it’s hard to make the case that the systems here and in Israel are equal. Here a child like Eldar will get the therapy he needs five times a week. In Israel the norm is closer to once a week.”
More broadly, she says that deportation is always hardest of all on the children, especially on those with disabilities.
“All children crave routine,” she observes. “When you yank them away from their familiar surroundings, they will with certainty suffer deep hardship, even more so in the case of special ed kids.”
Lawyer Frenkel agrees. “We believe the government is missing the point,” he says. “It’s less about the comparative value of schools in Israel versus the U.S. It’s most importantly about Eldar and his unique condition. He’s not a normal child. He doesn’t acclimate at all well to big changes.
“I am optimistic we will win our case,” Frenkel continues. “You’ve got a major differentiation between educational and therapy systems in two countries. You’ve got a kid who very possibly will find the move to such a radically new environment too difficult to handle.”
For Abraham Chen, the country he and his wife have adopted is the only place for their family.
“This is the leading country,” he says, “for teaching other countries how to give people what they need.”
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Read Comments (36) — Post Yours »
1
Jun 10, 2009 at 08:12 PM The Truth Says:
Whats the news here?
This is a typical case of applying for a green card. If you dont like the system - dont move here. As the article says - there is no democracy, judge or jury deciding green card cases - it is total closed book operation with little sense or logic.
2
Jun 10, 2009 at 08:00 PM Dovid Says:
Yored, shuv habayta!
This is not an issue we should take a side on.
Going to Eretz Yisroel will be devastating? That is chutzpadik to even say that!
3
Jun 10, 2009 at 08:44 PM Joseph Says:
Too bad he's not Mexican. Then he would have had a chance.
4
Jun 10, 2009 at 09:43 PM HolyMoe Says:
What's so bad about living in Israel?
If only my family in Europe 65 years ago would have had such a case, lost it and have been deported to, what is now, Israel.
Who is to know where it will be better to live in five years from now.
(BTW the treatment and care for children like Eldar in Israel is far superior than in the USA and is totally free.)
5
Jun 10, 2009 at 09:23 PM Dave Says:
Just to be sure I understand, they are going to court to argue that it is an irrevocable hardship to raise a Jewish child in Israel?
6
Jun 10, 2009 at 11:02 PM Stephen Says:
Cancellation of Removal is not the typical way of applying for a green card. I hope the family wins the case, but you should understand that the vast, vast majority of people do not immigrate to the U.S. this way.
7
Jun 11, 2009 at 05:31 AM reba Says:
dont make me laugh ...i have a handicap child and i live in israel ...they make it sound like they are sending them back to kenya or so ...true they dont give so much therapy here in israel but there are other benefits .......
8
Jun 11, 2009 at 02:43 AM Anonymous Says:
HolyMoe, I'm not sure where you get your info, but I work in the special ed system in Israel and kids are entitled to very little therapy here- an hour and a half a week is what they get- including speech, OT, and PT. That means half an hour each per week, which is nothing. Anything more than that is out of pocket. So if a kid like Eldar will get 5 times a week in America, and it is certainly subsidized, then he would definitely do better there. And the article is right about the fact that it would be very difficult and maybe devastating,for him to be subjected to learning a new language,when it sounds like he has language issues already.
And to you, Dovid, who claims that it is "chutzpadik" to say that it would be devastating for them to come here, did you ever try transplanting big kids to a new country with a whole new culture and language? Any expert or rov will tell you that it is very unwise to do it if you have children over 7-8 years old because the adjustment could mess them up. There are enough of those kids here on the street because they never did find their place or fit in to the mold. This family has several children over 7 and a kid with Down's. Pretty "chutzpadik" on your part to make a comment like you did!
9
Jun 11, 2009 at 01:55 AM Anonymous Says:
They flouted our countrys laws then did the chait of the miraglim to speak lashon hara on eretz yisrael ande they are using their downs syndrome kid for it all!
10
Jun 11, 2009 at 01:44 AM Anonymous Says:
You break the rules you pay the price. Pay attention to Dina D'Malchusa. If you want to live and work here, and not be a citizen, then the green card is more than enough for you. End of story.
11
Jun 11, 2009 at 12:56 AM Anonymous Says:
“ What's so bad about living in Israel?
If only my family in Europe 65 years ago would have had such a case, lost it and have been deported to, what is now, Israel.
Who is to know where it will be better to live in five years from now.
(BTW the treatment and care for children like Eldar in Israel is far superior than in the USA and is totally free.) ”
“What's so bad about living in Israel?"
There's nothing bad about living in Israel, but the problem teh article brings up is that the Down;s Syndrome boy will be unable to learn a new language at his age (only as a baby). He lacks the intellectual capability to start over in what is, for him, a new country, because he will be unable to speak the language..
12
Jun 11, 2009 at 12:45 AM Anonymous Says:
I live in Yerushalayim - and have a special needs child (CP) - the care here is AMAZING. He gets at least one therapy almost every day. The government covers almost all of the expenses too.
13
Jun 10, 2009 at 11:37 PM Anonymous Says:
The typically complicated maze of immigration laws is working against them but seems quite the norm for this country. Moreover, the idea that you can stay here as an undocumented alien is crazy to begin with.
14
Jun 11, 2009 at 07:24 AM Anonymous Says:
like number 3 said if they were lateeeeeno then the aclu would take their case
15
Jun 11, 2009 at 06:16 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Yored, shuv habayta!
This is not an issue we should take a side on.
Going to Eretz Yisroel will be devastating? That is chutzpadik to even say that! ”
Your kids are are more deserving of a little rachmanus because they happened to have been born on the right side of a meaningless line on a map?
16
Jun 11, 2009 at 06:15 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Yored, shuv habayta!
This is not an issue we should take a side on.
Going to Eretz Yisroel will be devastating? That is chutzpadik to even say that! ”
Perhaps you are correct. Certainly, judging by your pompous, heartless comment, I must admit that you seem to be an expert on chutzpah.
17
Jun 11, 2009 at 08:59 AM Longing to be Home Says:
“ like number 3 said if they were lateeeeeno then the aclu would take their case ”
The ACLU, would not take their case. This has nothing to do with the violation of this families "Civil Liberties" as defined by the Constitution. They chose to violate US immigration law as so many Israelis and others do, and when the time runs out and they must face the consequneces of their violation they cry fowl. While I feel badly for the family that does not mean what they did is right nor does it mean they should receive special treatment under the law. While I am not familiar with what special needs children receive in Israel I am sure that it parallels that of treatment here in the USA, those who live in Metropolitan areas have access to more and better treatment programs than those who reside in rural areas. I for one would be delighted to move to Israel, I wish I had the chance. MY wife refuses to leave the good old USA. Please do not misconstrue this as my being un-American, I served my country in the ARMY and law enforcement for many years. But Eretz HaKodesh is the place for a Shomer Torah Yid, for that matter any Yid. A Yiddishe Neshumah never feels better than when it is in E.Y. From my first trip 30 years ago to my last one 2 years ago and the15 or so in between, the moment I step off the plane and feel the soil of E.Y. under my feet I feel that I have arrived at my real home. I hope that these folks will find the solution they are looking for, however if they are required to return to E.Y. they should realise that it is not a curse but a true Braucha of H'KB.
18
Jun 11, 2009 at 09:33 AM Anonymous Says:
“ The ACLU, would not take their case. This has nothing to do with the violation of this families "Civil Liberties" as defined by the Constitution. They chose to violate US immigration law as so many Israelis and others do, and when the time runs out and they must face the consequneces of their violation they cry fowl. While I feel badly for the family that does not mean what they did is right nor does it mean they should receive special treatment under the law. While I am not familiar with what special needs children receive in Israel I am sure that it parallels that of treatment here in the USA, those who live in Metropolitan areas have access to more and better treatment programs than those who reside in rural areas. I for one would be delighted to move to Israel, I wish I had the chance. MY wife refuses to leave the good old USA. Please do not misconstrue this as my being un-American, I served my country in the ARMY and law enforcement for many years. But Eretz HaKodesh is the place for a Shomer Torah Yid, for that matter any Yid. A Yiddishe Neshumah never feels better than when it is in E.Y. From my first trip 30 years ago to my last one 2 years ago and the15 or so in between, the moment I step off the plane and feel the soil of E.Y. under my feet I feel that I have arrived at my real home. I hope that these folks will find the solution they are looking for, however if they are required to return to E.Y. they should realise that it is not a curse but a true Braucha of H'KB. ”
Wonderful drasha.
Care to walk a mile in their shoes and come back and read what you wrote and tell us how it sounds?
(BTW, if you love EY so much, what stops you from divorcing your wife and moving? Blaming your wife is so easy.)
19
Jun 11, 2009 at 11:47 AM Anonymous Says:
#18, divorce your wife and move to EY? I hope you are not serious.
Glad that the majority opinion is not to cry for these people, regarding their immigration issue. Let's daven for them and their children anyways. Even if they broke the law (which it not clear they did), it is a law the govt does not enforce equally and is questionable if it even qualifies as dina d'maclhusa (see comments above about Latin Americans).
20
Jun 11, 2009 at 12:06 PM Realist Says:
Ad shetagia lim'komo!!!
21
Jun 11, 2009 at 12:18 PM Anonymous Says:
While I do understand where they're coming from, living in Israel, even with a special needs child, is not the end of the world. With respect to the arguement regarding the rest of their children, I'm sorry, but it just doesn't hold water - how are they any different from any other Olim who make Aliya with kids? If anything, the family has an advantage in that both parents are Israeli, and presumably speak the language and know the culture. In fact, there's a good chance the kids have at least some understanding of Hebrew based on their parents and the fact that they learn in Frum schools (you do get something from learning Chumash).
And to all those who say that if I'm so pro-living in Israel, why don't I go there - I did; I made Aliya over seven years ago with five children (including one with special needs), and we are B"H doing fine.
22
Jun 11, 2009 at 12:54 PM Aryeh Says:
Doing fine in Israel?! Hashem makes miracles for us in our Land, but don't pretend that someone of modest means can simply pack up and expect to find a job with open arms and good pay. This is very difficult even for Israelis. This case is very simple: a good family who contributes to the country should not be kicked out on a technicality by a heartless judge. Justice is not blind, deaf and dumb.
23
Jun 11, 2009 at 01:02 PM Dave Says:
“ #18, divorce your wife and move to EY? I hope you are not serious.
Glad that the majority opinion is not to cry for these people, regarding their immigration issue. Let's daven for them and their children anyways. Even if they broke the law (which it not clear they did), it is a law the govt does not enforce equally and is questionable if it even qualifies as dina d'maclhusa (see comments above about Latin Americans). ”
There is certainly room for reasonable people to disagree about American immigration policy.
However, there is no question as to whether or not the couple involved broke US law. The United States changed the laws a number of years back to make being in America improperly a crime; and in fact, it is a crime that has increasingly in recent years been brought to trial, rather than simply expelling the offenders.
Moreover, the overwhelming bulk of those both prosecuted for being in the United States illegally and of those deported from the United States are from Latin America.
24
Jun 11, 2009 at 12:51 PM Joe Says:
Such sad situation sounds like these people have plenty to deal with without all this i hope b"h it all works out.
25
Jun 11, 2009 at 12:34 PM Anonymous Says:
“ #18, divorce your wife and move to EY? I hope you are not serious.
Glad that the majority opinion is not to cry for these people, regarding their immigration issue. Let's daven for them and their children anyways. Even if they broke the law (which it not clear they did), it is a law the govt does not enforce equally and is questionable if it even qualifies as dina d'maclhusa (see comments above about Latin Americans). ”
Hey, a guy who uses the title "Longing to be Home" for his 'handle' should be willing to give up anything for what he loves the most.
Unless he is one more American who makes himself feel better about living in America while crying crocodile tears over being away from his beloved, by finding some reason that is too big to work around on which to lay the blame.
26
Jun 11, 2009 at 01:20 PM Anonymous Says:
“ While I do understand where they're coming from, living in Israel, even with a special needs child, is not the end of the world. With respect to the arguement regarding the rest of their children, I'm sorry, but it just doesn't hold water - how are they any different from any other Olim who make Aliya with kids? If anything, the family has an advantage in that both parents are Israeli, and presumably speak the language and know the culture. In fact, there's a good chance the kids have at least some understanding of Hebrew based on their parents and the fact that they learn in Frum schools (you do get something from learning Chumash).
And to all those who say that if I'm so pro-living in Israel, why don't I go there - I did; I made Aliya over seven years ago with five children (including one with special needs), and we are B"H doing fine.
”
Unless you are telling us that either a) you know the family and your special needs child has the exact same special needs to the exact same measure or that b) all special needs children are the same, so you don't have to know the anything in order to compare two special needs children, your family's success at adjusting to life after Aliyah, while it might inspire us to wish you all mazal tov and continued success, has zero relevance to this case.
27
Jun 11, 2009 at 02:04 PM dovy Says:
As all of us witnessed the police brutality last friday night know, Israel is not a great place for a religous Jew to live. It is certain that the special ed system is stacked against the religous as the whole country is set up to discriminate against the frum and the "settlers" (a code word for national religous). But again, those sitting in Brooklyn crying that obama is an anti-semite know differently.
28
Jun 11, 2009 at 07:33 PM Longing to be Home Says:
“ Hey, a guy who uses the title "Longing to be Home" for his 'handle' should be willing to give up anything for what he loves the most.
Unless he is one more American who makes himself feel better about living in America while crying crocodile tears over being away from his beloved, by finding some reason that is too big to work around on which to lay the blame. ”
I am not an "American who makes himself feel better" I just choose not to give up my wife of 40 years, are you married 40 years, if not consider what you say. I hope that you will be married 40 years, but by todays statistics you will not. When my wife will resolve in her mind to move then we will both go, if not that is the will of H"KB & I will accept it.
29
Jun 11, 2009 at 07:27 PM Longing to be Home Says:
“ Wonderful drasha.
Care to walk a mile in their shoes and come back and read what you wrote and tell us how it sounds?
(BTW, if you love EY so much, what stops you from divorcing your wife and moving? Blaming your wife is so easy.) ”
Glad that you liked the drasha, however walking in their shoes has nothing to do with the FACTS which you so blantently choose to ignore. They violated the immigration law and now feel that they are entitled to special dispensation by the court, that's just not how things work in a lawful society. My parents dificult hurdles to come to the US, but did so leagally, unlike much of todays immigration. Just in case you don't realise, illegal immigration is a contributory factor to the economic crisis today. The treatment which this family feels they are entitled to is paid for in a large part by taxes which hard working American Citizens pay. These services should not be available to any illegal immigrants. As for walking a mile in their shoes, I have been there I was in Viet Nam for 2 years seriving my country in worst of circumstances and praying to H'KB that he would see that I made it home alive. Also I would lower my self to the status of law breaker nor would I become an illegal immigrant in any country. That is a CHOICE they made of their free will. No where in Torah does it state that a frum Yid should violate the low of the land.period. As you making a statement that I should divorce my wife to live in Israel that is the most ludicrous statement I have heard, truly the words of a chamor!
30
Jun 11, 2009 at 10:03 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Glad that you liked the drasha, however walking in their shoes has nothing to do with the FACTS which you so blantently choose to ignore. They violated the immigration law and now feel that they are entitled to special dispensation by the court, that's just not how things work in a lawful society. My parents dificult hurdles to come to the US, but did so leagally, unlike much of todays immigration. Just in case you don't realise, illegal immigration is a contributory factor to the economic crisis today. The treatment which this family feels they are entitled to is paid for in a large part by taxes which hard working American Citizens pay. These services should not be available to any illegal immigrants. As for walking a mile in their shoes, I have been there I was in Viet Nam for 2 years seriving my country in worst of circumstances and praying to H'KB that he would see that I made it home alive. Also I would lower my self to the status of law breaker nor would I become an illegal immigrant in any country. That is a CHOICE they made of their free will. No where in Torah does it state that a frum Yid should violate the low of the land.period. As you making a statement that I should divorce my wife to live in Israel that is the most ludicrous statement I have heard, truly the words of a chamor! ”
So your serving in 'nam gives you the right and the wisdom to judge other people and to lecture them on the wonders of living in EY (which you yourself haven't done)?
Does serving in 'nam mean that you are smarter than the mishnah that teaches us not to judge anymore 'ad shetagiah limkomo?
Did you leave your rachmanus in 'nam?
31
Jun 12, 2009 at 08:23 AM Shua Says:
“ So your serving in 'nam gives you the right and the wisdom to judge other people and to lecture them on the wonders of living in EY (which you yourself haven't done)?
Does serving in 'nam mean that you are smarter than the mishnah that teaches us not to judge anymore 'ad shetagiah limkomo?
Did you leave your rachmanus in 'nam? ”
Dear Anonymous: "Longing to Be Home" (LTBH) is clearly a thoughtful and erliche yid. I'm m'dan l'chaf zhus that you are too. I just wish that you would try to show it more clearly in the way that you respond to him.
LTBH intelligently and clearly elucidated his opinion that when people break the law, they have to be prepared to live with the consequences. Every Jew with emunah is aware that the onshim and yissurim that we experience are a result of wrongdoing. But just as Hashem continues to have rachmanus for every yid even as He is punishing us, so to am I absolutely certain that LTBH has rachmanus for the Chen family in their plight. But this does not obviate the consequences that they must now face having broken the immigration laws of this country. That is, unless you espouse the idea that as the 'am segulah' (chosen people), we are so special that we can break the laws of our host country with impunity.
32
Jun 12, 2009 at 09:45 AM Anonymous Says:
As valid as they are, the points you raise do not have anything to do with LTBH's failure to refrain from judging these people because as bad as he his experiences might have been in Vietnam, and I am sure they were horrible, he has not been in their place, nor his obvious lack of compassion for the situation in which these people find themselves. These people are not resho'im, c"v. They violated a law (the morality of which I strongly contest) who's frequency of violation is only exceeded by those of the speed limit and the removal of pillow tags.
Unless Mr. LTBH is the one person in human history who has never violated any law his self-rightious attitude is inexcusable.
FWIW, belief in schar ve'onesh is in no way a justification for a person's lack of feeling for another person's plight. (Unless of course you wish to argue that we should not have sympathy for cholim either, because klapi shamaya they are getting what they deserve. (Unless they are being tested, in which case we should be in favor of their suffering as it affords the choleh the opportunity to move closer to the RBS"O or the choleh is suffering in order to increase his reward in Olam Haboh. These are the three possibilities the Chovos Halevovos offers as reason's for people's suffering in Olam Hazaeh.)
LTBH should save the lecture for bais medresh, at least until he is 'home'.
33
Jun 12, 2009 at 11:47 AM Shua Says:
Anonymous wrote: "These people are not resho'im, c"v. They violated a law (the morality of which I strongly contest) who's frequency of violation is only exceeded by those of the speed limit and the removal of pillow tags."
I agree with you 100%. Of course these people are not reshoyim. But one of the underlying principles of civil disobedience is that when one strongly contests the morality of a law -- as you seem to do regarding our immigration laws -- one nevertheless accepts whatever punishment one's violation may entail until the law is successfully changed.
Secondly, in any society based on the principle of respect for the law -- and Jewish society is the paradigm for such a society in history -- the "frequency of violation" of any law is totally irrelevant to the law's validity and enforceability. Remember, the VAST MAJORITY of Klal Yisrael worldwide are totally assimilated and neglectful of taryag mitvot. We do not say that this, therefore, in any way invalidates the law (ch"v). Dina d'malchusa dina tells us that the same principle applies to our government's laws.
Finally, I'm hard pressed to understand how our immigration laws are morally objectionable. Halacha (law) determines who and how one becomes a Jew. The U.S. government has not only the right, but the responsibility to determine who and how one becomes a resident of this country. Just as the Reform and Conservative have caused chaos by their loose conversion laws, can you imagine the chaos that would ensue if the U.S. opened it borders to one and all. My understanding is that thousands of Israeli's are here illegally, who hope to stay under the radar and not get caught. The Chen's now find themselves in a terrible situation, but it is one of their own making.
The paradaox is that if the Chen's lose their battle with the immigration authorities, they will be sent to the land where we pray to the Ribbono Shel Olam three times a day, that we all want to go home to. Whether our generation is guilty of incredible hypocrisy for staying in golus is a topic for another time. But, the venerable Rav of Yerushalayim, Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld, zt'l, chastized the Jews of America for "voluntarily" staying in golus, and called it one of our greatest "failures" for which we will be held accountable in HaOlam Ha'ba (Ha’ish Al Hachoma, vol. II, p. 149).
34
Jun 12, 2009 at 11:35 AM Longing to be Home Says:
“ As valid as they are, the points you raise do not have anything to do with LTBH's failure to refrain from judging these people because as bad as he his experiences might have been in Vietnam, and I am sure they were horrible, he has not been in their place, nor his obvious lack of compassion for the situation in which these people find themselves. These people are not resho'im, c"v. They violated a law (the morality of which I strongly contest) who's frequency of violation is only exceeded by those of the speed limit and the removal of pillow tags.
Unless Mr. LTBH is the one person in human history who has never violated any law his self-rightious attitude is inexcusable.
FWIW, belief in schar ve'onesh is in no way a justification for a person's lack of feeling for another person's plight. (Unless of course you wish to argue that we should not have sympathy for cholim either, because klapi shamaya they are getting what they deserve. (Unless they are being tested, in which case we should be in favor of their suffering as it affords the choleh the opportunity to move closer to the RBS"O or the choleh is suffering in order to increase his reward in Olam Haboh. These are the three possibilities the Chovos Halevovos offers as reason's for people's suffering in Olam Hazaeh.)
LTBH should save the lecture for bais medresh, at least until he is 'home'. ”
Dear Shua, Thank you for your understanding of what I wrote. Unfortunaetly some of the readers in this forum do not. Mr. Anonymous, I am in no way judging these people, that is the role of the Ebishter and the courts, not mine or any one elses. I am, however, passing comment on their choice of violating the laws of the country and then complaining about the consequences. This was a concious chocie which they made for themselves. The reason I mention my service in Viet Nam is that I also had a choice I could have gone to Canada and evaded the draft or sought a questionable Yesheiva exemption like so many others did, and those choices also would have consequences. I chose to do what I felt was the morally and legally right thing to do. Did I have moral issues with our country's position in Viet Nam of course I did, however, violation of the law & civil disobedience does not constitute change, nor am I the one person in human history who has never viloated the law, nor am I self rightous. I am however proud of the fact that I have never been arrested, I do not get speeding tickets, I pay my debts, I work for a living, I give Tzedaka as I should, daven every day and do as much community service as my time permits. Does that make me self rightous, no I don;t think so, what it does make me is a productive & contributory member of society. Are you able to say the same? BTW, When I get to work every day, I do it early so that I may start my day by learning a chapter of Iggeres HaRamban & at mid-day learning Chvovos Halevovos. Please think about what YOU say about people, do I have compasion for this family, with out question, do I think they did the right thing by violating the law absoluetly NOT! That is not a judgement, just my personal moral beleif.
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Jun 13, 2009 at 10:51 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Dear Shua, Thank you for your understanding of what I wrote. Unfortunaetly some of the readers in this forum do not. Mr. Anonymous, I am in no way judging these people, that is the role of the Ebishter and the courts, not mine or any one elses. I am, however, passing comment on their choice of violating the laws of the country and then complaining about the consequences. This was a concious chocie which they made for themselves. The reason I mention my service in Viet Nam is that I also had a choice I could have gone to Canada and evaded the draft or sought a questionable Yesheiva exemption like so many others did, and those choices also would have consequences. I chose to do what I felt was the morally and legally right thing to do. Did I have moral issues with our country's position in Viet Nam of course I did, however, violation of the law & civil disobedience does not constitute change, nor am I the one person in human history who has never viloated the law, nor am I self rightous. I am however proud of the fact that I have never been arrested, I do not get speeding tickets, I pay my debts, I work for a living, I give Tzedaka as I should, daven every day and do as much community service as my time permits. Does that make me self rightous, no I don;t think so, what it does make me is a productive & contributory member of society. Are you able to say the same? BTW, When I get to work every day, I do it early so that I may start my day by learning a chapter of Iggeres HaRamban & at mid-day learning Chvovos Halevovos. Please think about what YOU say about people, do I have compasion for this family, with out question, do I think they did the right thing by violating the law absoluetly NOT! That is not a judgement, just my personal moral beleif. ”
Boy, I'm glad we don't think alike.
I'd get nose-bleeds sitting on such a high horse all day.
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Jun 14, 2009 at 08:01 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Dear Shua, Thank you for your understanding of what I wrote. Unfortunaetly some of the readers in this forum do not. Mr. Anonymous, I am in no way judging these people, that is the role of the Ebishter and the courts, not mine or any one elses. I am, however, passing comment on their choice of violating the laws of the country and then complaining about the consequences. This was a concious chocie which they made for themselves. The reason I mention my service in Viet Nam is that I also had a choice I could have gone to Canada and evaded the draft or sought a questionable Yesheiva exemption like so many others did, and those choices also would have consequences. I chose to do what I felt was the morally and legally right thing to do. Did I have moral issues with our country's position in Viet Nam of course I did, however, violation of the law & civil disobedience does not constitute change, nor am I the one person in human history who has never viloated the law, nor am I self rightous. I am however proud of the fact that I have never been arrested, I do not get speeding tickets, I pay my debts, I work for a living, I give Tzedaka as I should, daven every day and do as much community service as my time permits. Does that make me self rightous, no I don;t think so, what it does make me is a productive & contributory member of society. Are you able to say the same? BTW, When I get to work every day, I do it early so that I may start my day by learning a chapter of Iggeres HaRamban & at mid-day learning Chvovos Halevovos. Please think about what YOU say about people, do I have compasion for this family, with out question, do I think they did the right thing by violating the law absoluetly NOT! That is not a judgement, just my personal moral beleif. ”
Please explain the mishnah - al todin es chaverchoh ad shtagiah limkomo and as you don't believe it is applicable in this case, please explain why not and in what case you think the mishnah's teaching applies.
(And please, stop trying to make the absurd claim that serving your country in Vietnam 40 years ago, as admirable as it might be, somehow means higa'atoh limkomom.)
I'll check the rishonim later, bli neder, but I am pretty sure neither the mishnah itself nor any of the meforshim, mention exceptions for paradigms of self-rightious perfection.