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Brooklyn, NY - Exclusive: DA Hynes Tells VIN News, Abuse Issue In Jewish Community Overblown By Media [video] |
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Among the areas covered in the interview are the new Kol Tzedek program launched by the District Attorney's office to address the molestation issues that have been in the headlines reently. Mr. Hynes is taking the issue of molestation seriously, and at the same time is assuring the Jewish community that the issue has been overblown in the media.
Mr. Hynes explained that Kol Tzedek is program launched by the DA’s office, and is a result of a solid relationship he has with various people in the Frum Community that he has cultivated for the past
nineteen years. He is working with Ohel and Met Council on these issues. He also explained that the Brooklyn DA’s office is planning further programming that will “ease the pain of victims of this horrible crime.”
The interview is thirty minutes in length and is unedited.
Regarding the issue of deceptive missionary posters on city property Mr. Hynes explained that while there are first amendment rights of freedom of speech - it is an administrative crime which he described as “gornisht but gornisht.” He did advise people to call 311, however, to complain.
He also addressed the recently dropped narcotics cases in the police department narcotics unit in Brooklyn. He felt that it was important to send a message that we will not tolerate abuse of
citizens rights. When asked whether it sends a message that we are not so tough on crime, Mr. Hynes referred VINNEWS to some people in Attica State Prison to ask them if he was soft on crime.
Mr. Hynes’ specialty, it seems, is not to tolerate corruption in any form. He has put away judges who abuse the system and others who work it in immoral ways.
His staff described what a wonderful person he is to work for, but it is clear from his record that he is a no-nonsense type of person when it comes to fighting crime, corruption, and the abuse of the privacy laws.
Mr. Hynes further discussed concerns for terrorism in light of the Bronx incident, police corruption, and prosecutorial abuse as well. Mr Hynes discusses his novel and also his support and relations with the State of Israel. In the past he has visited Israel and wishes to do so again, planning a trip with the JCRC.
Mr. Hynes is up for re-election this year and his support and assistance to the issues that the Brooklyn Jewish community face has been welcomed by a broad spectrum of the religious Jewish community.
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Read Comments (47) — Post Yours »
1
Jun 11, 2009 at 12:14 PM Fact! Says:
IT'S NOT OVERBLOWN, JUST UNEXPECTED. ALLOW ME TO EXPLAIN, AS JEWS WE ARE EXPECTED TO BE OF A HIGHER MORAL CHARACHTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE, HASHEM REQUIRES THIS OF US. AS A WHOLE MOST JEWS ARE MORE REFINED AND BEHAVE PROPERLY. SUCH DISGUSTING BEHAVIOR IS THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT WE (AND THE WORLD) EXPECT OF US. SO ANY SUCH BEHAVIOR STICKS OUT. FOR EXAMPLE DO YOU EVER HEAR SOMEONE SAY "I JUST HEARD THAT PUBLIC SCHOOL CHILD CURSE, HOW SHOCKING" ? NO YOU DON'T!, BECAUSE YOU DO NOT EXPECT BETTER!!! WE EXPECT BETTER OF JEWS ! SO ITS THE SHOCK FACTOR THAT CAUSES THE WIDESPREAD NEWS!
2
Jun 11, 2009 at 12:17 PM stop with the puff piece Says:
hynes and his staff has covered up for years whats happned here with children
and he has been a failure when it comes to trying molesters ( look at kolko )
lets stop pandering and if and when the markey bills pass we will see what he describes as a gornisht but gornisht becomes mount everest
3
Jun 11, 2009 at 12:18 PM ga Says:
Let's count down the seconds until all of the so-called "advocates" start coming out of the woodwork saying this guy doesn't know what he's talking about.
Well guess what. I'm a former victim (I hate to use the word "survivor", that should be reserved for those went through the Nazi hell), and I agree 100% that people are making a much bigger deal out of it than it should be. I follow my Rosh Yeshiva and his colleagues, who have a very good handle on this, thank you very much.
Yes, I'm sure Hashem wants molestation in our communities stamped out for good. I'm also sure that making a massive Chillul Hashem is NOT preferable to Him.
4
Jun 11, 2009 at 12:24 PM Anonymous Says:
it is overblown in that it certainly doesn't happen any more by us than it does by others; but that is no reason to pat ourselves on the back, because it doesn't happen any less either.
5
Jun 11, 2009 at 12:28 PM Raphael Kaufman Says:
“ hynes and his staff has covered up for years whats happned here with children
and he has been a failure when it comes to trying molesters ( look at kolko )
lets stop pandering and if and when the markey bills pass we will see what he describes as a gornisht but gornisht becomes mount everest ”
Mr. Hynes' "gornisht mit gornisht" comment refered to the missionary posters, not to accusations of abuse.
6
Jun 11, 2009 at 01:01 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Let's count down the seconds until all of the so-called "advocates" start coming out of the woodwork saying this guy doesn't know what he's talking about.
Well guess what. I'm a former victim (I hate to use the word "survivor", that should be reserved for those went through the Nazi hell), and I agree 100% that people are making a much bigger deal out of it than it should be. I follow my Rosh Yeshiva and his colleagues, who have a very good handle on this, thank you very much.
Yes, I'm sure Hashem wants molestation in our communities stamped out for good. I'm also sure that making a massive Chillul Hashem is NOT preferable to Him. ”
The massive chillul hashem is caused by people trying to cover up cases of abuse. It is caused by people who claim to "have a very good handle on this". Instead of urging victims to go directly to the police, they are constantly being told to stifle themselves for life and to let the molesters walk around freely. This leaves them free to attack other victims. Dov Hikind amassed hundreds of cases of abuse within a few weeks. These are only the one's that dare come forward. Burying our heads collectively in the sand and saying "it's not so bad", is not the proper way to deal with this. How many more victims do we need ? How many more destroyed lives? How many more suicides? It's nice that this poster seems to have recovered nicely from his nightmare. It's too bad we can't say the same for the other 99% of the victims who are scarred for life. Hynes has been in bed with the local hasidic "leadership" for two decades now. He helped protect Mondrowitz in Israel up until last year when the cries of the decent people of the community were too much for him. This Kol Tzedek of his is another ruse to show that he really cares. He is just another corrupt politician on the take.
7
Jun 11, 2009 at 12:50 PM Askupeh Says:
“ Mr. Hynes' "gornisht mit gornisht" comment refered to the missionary posters, not to accusations of abuse. ”
Don’t confuse him, he already has made up his mind. Facts don't count.
8
Jun 11, 2009 at 01:05 PM Leo Says:
I am known to some of you I do not believe that the orthodox community has any higher percentage of molesters then any other group, the only issue you have is that for years the leadership did not understand what molestation and pedophilia is, as oppose other actions, but from what I see reported in VIN the last year I can see slowly but surely the willingness to deal with this issue is taking hold. It might surprise some of you I always and still believe that the first time it comes to light, the community needs to deal with the offender quietly, (as I had proposed in my case), however if we deal with a repeat offender you must report this to the police.
9
Jun 11, 2009 at 12:44 PM Askupeh Says:
“ Let's count down the seconds until all of the so-called "advocates" start coming out of the woodwork saying this guy doesn't know what he's talking about.
Well guess what. I'm a former victim (I hate to use the word "survivor", that should be reserved for those went through the Nazi hell), and I agree 100% that people are making a much bigger deal out of it than it should be. I follow my Rosh Yeshiva and his colleagues, who have a very good handle on this, thank you very much.
Yes, I'm sure Hashem wants molestation in our communities stamped out for good. I'm also sure that making a massive Chillul Hashem is NOT preferable to Him. ”
Thank you for putting these Meshugoyim like comment #1 in place. I wish you a good and productive and happy life for acting like a Yid.
Now I turn my attention to the rest of you.
I TOLD YOU SO. What Charles Hynes knows now, WE (the normal ones among us) knew from the beginning that this whole thing is way exaggerated? For the last few months I have been telling you that compared to the Goyishe world, where it is really an epidemic, the amount of molestation in the Frum community is very SMALL. Again for those who are about to read what they want into my words I’ll again say that “of course one case is TOO many”; but from there to go berserk like comment # 1 (I think I know who he is) – is a far cry.
In the Catholic Church it is the clergy who are molesting the children; By Yiden it is NOT the Rabbonim who are the molesters, but mostly it happens at home, with also a small amount at school, by a Melamed, janitor, or other.
Again I’m all for doing everything in our power to eliminate it entirely by us Yiden, but NOT by making a SHTINK in the Goyishe media.
10
Jun 11, 2009 at 01:12 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Thank you for putting these Meshugoyim like comment #1 in place. I wish you a good and productive and happy life for acting like a Yid.
Now I turn my attention to the rest of you.
I TOLD YOU SO. What Charles Hynes knows now, WE (the normal ones among us) knew from the beginning that this whole thing is way exaggerated? For the last few months I have been telling you that compared to the Goyishe world, where it is really an epidemic, the amount of molestation in the Frum community is very SMALL. Again for those who are about to read what they want into my words I’ll again say that “of course one case is TOO many”; but from there to go berserk like comment # 1 (I think I know who he is) – is a far cry.
In the Catholic Church it is the clergy who are molesting the children; By Yiden it is NOT the Rabbonim who are the molesters, but mostly it happens at home, with also a small amount at school, by a Melamed, janitor, or other.
Again I’m all for doing everything in our power to eliminate it entirely by us Yiden, but NOT by making a SHTINK in the Goyishe media. ”
De Nile ain't just a river in Egypt.
11
Jun 11, 2009 at 12:47 PM Anonymous Says:
Mr. D.A. - If the problem is overblown why did you create a special hotline for victims in the Orthodox community? Didn't that just fuel the 'overblowing' of the problem??
12
Jun 11, 2009 at 01:20 PM Anonymous Says:
Let's not forget that Hynes is a politician.
13
Jun 11, 2009 at 01:49 PM The Surviver Says:
“ I am known to some of you I do not believe that the orthodox community has any higher percentage of molesters then any other group, the only issue you have is that for years the leadership did not understand what molestation and pedophilia is, as oppose other actions, but from what I see reported in VIN the last year I can see slowly but surely the willingness to deal with this issue is taking hold. It might surprise some of you I always and still believe that the first time it comes to light, the community needs to deal with the offender quietly, (as I had proposed in my case), however if we deal with a repeat offender you must report this to the police. ”
thank you Leo for coming back and comenting here. you are 100% right!!
14
Jun 11, 2009 at 01:39 PM Leo Says:
“ Thank you for putting these Meshugoyim like comment #1 in place. I wish you a good and productive and happy life for acting like a Yid.
Now I turn my attention to the rest of you.
I TOLD YOU SO. What Charles Hynes knows now, WE (the normal ones among us) knew from the beginning that this whole thing is way exaggerated? For the last few months I have been telling you that compared to the Goyishe world, where it is really an epidemic, the amount of molestation in the Frum community is very SMALL. Again for those who are about to read what they want into my words I’ll again say that “of course one case is TOO many”; but from there to go berserk like comment # 1 (I think I know who he is) – is a far cry.
In the Catholic Church it is the clergy who are molesting the children; By Yiden it is NOT the Rabbonim who are the molesters, but mostly it happens at home, with also a small amount at school, by a Melamed, janitor, or other.
Again I’m all for doing everything in our power to eliminate it entirely by us Yiden, but NOT by making a SHTINK in the Goyishe media. ”
Askupeh
Your points are basically right, the only issue I would like to point out I do not believe that molestation is more prevalent in the none religious community there are no statistical data to prove that, therefore I would reframe from making such a claim.
15
Jun 11, 2009 at 01:33 PM Anonymous Says:
How does anybody know for sure how bad the situation is? How does anybody know how many sexual abuse victims there are today in the Orthodox community? We do know that most cases go unreported and that hardly any Orthodox child molesters ever do any prison time. The only thing we can conclude is that a child molester in our community has it a lot better than in most other communities. He is free to molest children at will without any fear of being reported. So no matter what the "numbers" or percentages really are, the thing that needs to be addressed is that there is nothing to deter these predators from attacking our children. That in itself is a tragedy, before we start counting up the victims.
16
Jun 11, 2009 at 01:29 PM Askupeh Says:
“ Mr. D.A. - If the problem is overblown why did you create a special hotline for victims in the Orthodox community? Didn't that just fuel the 'overblowing' of the problem?? ”
The hotline came after the explosion, after the Shtink.
17
Jun 11, 2009 at 01:29 PM MAKE NO MISTAKE Says:
IF I CAN ONLY STRESS IT ENOUGH, FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW, ITS OVERBLOWN, I KNOW 22 CASES THAT CHARLES HYNES DOESENT KNOW, SO WHAT THE HELL IS HE TALKING ABOUT?????? ITS UNDERESTIMATED!!!!!!!
THIS FROM SOMEONE WHO KNOWS
18
Jun 11, 2009 at 01:25 PM Askupeh Says:
“ The massive chillul hashem is caused by people trying to cover up cases of abuse. It is caused by people who claim to "have a very good handle on this". Instead of urging victims to go directly to the police, they are constantly being told to stifle themselves for life and to let the molesters walk around freely. This leaves them free to attack other victims. Dov Hikind amassed hundreds of cases of abuse within a few weeks. These are only the one's that dare come forward. Burying our heads collectively in the sand and saying "it's not so bad", is not the proper way to deal with this. How many more victims do we need ? How many more destroyed lives? How many more suicides? It's nice that this poster seems to have recovered nicely from his nightmare. It's too bad we can't say the same for the other 99% of the victims who are scarred for life. Hynes has been in bed with the local hasidic "leadership" for two decades now. He helped protect Mondrowitz in Israel up until last year when the cries of the decent people of the community were too much for him. This Kol Tzedek of his is another ruse to show that he really cares. He is just another corrupt politician on the take. ”
So just come out and say it that you are against the Hasidic leadership.
Your bizarre need to be right, makes you make up another story, that comment #3 is only ONE percent. How do you know? Maybe from where you know everything else you wrote. The Halachah is that It’s Ossur to go to the police before YOU ask a Rov a Sheilah, plain and simple; this is Judaism. Everything else is commentary (pun intended).
19
Jun 11, 2009 at 01:54 PM MOISHE Says:
Everyone should listen this interview. Hynes is a straightfoward professional who panders to no one. Personally, he's a religious mass going Catholic, which I believe gives him a better understanding of our values. Long a friend of our community, he has a number of frum Yiddin in high positions in his office. I know 2 former members of his staff who got in serious trouble and were dismissed, but they both agree that he got personally involved and treated them fairly. I've dealt with him and his staff on issues over the past 10-15 years and hold him in the highest regard. If all of our elected officials were of such high moral character our City and State would be much different.
20
Jun 11, 2009 at 02:20 PM Anonymous Says:
“ So just come out and say it that you are against the Hasidic leadership.
Your bizarre need to be right, makes you make up another story, that comment #3 is only ONE percent. How do you know? Maybe from where you know everything else you wrote. The Halachah is that It’s Ossur to go to the police before YOU ask a Rov a Sheilah, plain and simple; this is Judaism. Everything else is commentary (pun intended). ”
I am against any leadership that attempts to cover up these crimes and protects evil predators like Mondrowitz. As for my comment about him being 1%, go speak to any mental health professional and he will tell you that it is highly unlikely for any sex abuse victim to fully recover. That this poster is claiming that he was unaffected is also highly unlikely. As for halacha, Rav Elyashiv was posek that a child molester has the din of rodef and it is a mitzvah to report him to the police. THIS is Judaism! The "Judaism" of covering up and protecing child molesters may be your kind of perverted interpretation of halacha, but it sure is not the Judaism of Torah and real halacha. Either you are a child molester yourself or you are a heartless individual. Enablers like yourself are as big a danger as the child molesters out there.
21
Jun 11, 2009 at 02:11 PM Askupeh Says:
“ IF I CAN ONLY STRESS IT ENOUGH, FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW, ITS OVERBLOWN, I KNOW 22 CASES THAT CHARLES HYNES DOESENT KNOW, SO WHAT THE HELL IS HE TALKING ABOUT?????? ITS UNDERESTIMATED!!!!!!!
THIS FROM SOMEONE WHO KNOWS
”
You’re not honest. You make it sound as if you are and ordinary SHMO who knows 22 cases Hynes doesn’t know. Tell everybody that you are one of those spreading this myth and that you have traveled the world to tally the umber of victims, still you ONLY have 22 cases that Hynes doesn’t have?
22
Jun 11, 2009 at 02:47 PM Askupeh Says:
“ I am against any leadership that attempts to cover up these crimes and protects evil predators like Mondrowitz. As for my comment about him being 1%, go speak to any mental health professional and he will tell you that it is highly unlikely for any sex abuse victim to fully recover. That this poster is claiming that he was unaffected is also highly unlikely. As for halacha, Rav Elyashiv was posek that a child molester has the din of rodef and it is a mitzvah to report him to the police. THIS is Judaism! The "Judaism" of covering up and protecing child molesters may be your kind of perverted interpretation of halacha, but it sure is not the Judaism of Torah and real halacha. Either you are a child molester yourself or you are a heartless individual. Enablers like yourself are as big a danger as the child molesters out there. ”
Here we go again, when all else fails, lob accusations. It only shows the lack of any meaningful arguments.
You are the one perverting the Halacha, and creating G-d in YOUR image; shaping the Halacha to fit your agenda. Harav Elyashiv NEVER Paskened that it is allowed to report (mind you a Mitvah) every molester. He gave a specific Psak to a specific case. He will be the first to tell you that you need to FIRST ask a Rov. If you don’t believe me, ask him.
What you said in #18 that: “Hynes has been in bed with the local hasidic "leadership" for two decades now” – says it all, you’re agendas is against the local Hasidic leadership; and as the saying goes "all politics is local".
23
Jun 11, 2009 at 02:36 PM ga Says:
“ I am against any leadership that attempts to cover up these crimes and protects evil predators like Mondrowitz. As for my comment about him being 1%, go speak to any mental health professional and he will tell you that it is highly unlikely for any sex abuse victim to fully recover. That this poster is claiming that he was unaffected is also highly unlikely. As for halacha, Rav Elyashiv was posek that a child molester has the din of rodef and it is a mitzvah to report him to the police. THIS is Judaism! The "Judaism" of covering up and protecing child molesters may be your kind of perverted interpretation of halacha, but it sure is not the Judaism of Torah and real halacha. Either you are a child molester yourself or you are a heartless individual. Enablers like yourself are as big a danger as the child molesters out there. ”
I appreciate your concern for us. I never said that I was unaffected, I DID run into major problems because of it, BH I was able to work through them (with help). All I am trying to point out is that the way that this has come out is 100% unacceptable. I have the fullest respect for Dov Hikind and anyone else who is osek btzorchei tzibbur, but I think that the Ribono Shel Olam gave us Rabbonim for a reason. To say that they don't know what they're talking about and some random internet blogger is Moshiach seems to me to be complete apikorsus.
Do I think that child molestors should be covered up? Of course not. I went through the abuse and its aftereffects, and I have personally seen how it can completely mess up someone's life. But do you honestly believe that the "Jewish" world is dealing with it correctly now?
24
Jun 11, 2009 at 02:32 PM Anonymous Says:
#1, you have CAPS? I also do.
MR HYNES IS RIGHT!
The problem definitely exists, but its being unproportionally overblown and exaggerated by some activists for their own personal reasons.
25
Jun 11, 2009 at 02:04 PM Askupeh Says:
“ Askupeh
Your points are basically right, the only issue I would like to point out I do not believe that molestation is more prevalent in the none religious community there are no statistical data to prove that, therefore I would reframe from making such a claim.
”
Leo; thank you for your previous comment and also for this one. I based it on a statistic I recently saw that in the non-Jewish world, molestation of girls is close to 60 percent, and molestation of boys is about 40 percent.
In our circles I think that molestation of boys is more prevalent then of girls (probably due to more awareness), but still it is very small.
Leo I think that you and the one from comment #3 are the most qualified to talk to the Rabbonim how to solve this problem.
26
Jun 11, 2009 at 02:55 PM Anonymous Says:
Okay, do this guy have an agenda or no? If the blame is on his shoulders then his wards is null zero!!
27
Jun 11, 2009 at 03:00 PM Anonymous Says:
problem is problem, there are all kinds of people around, including pedophiles, also including self proclaimed activists that would try to blow up the situation and multiply it to make it look much worse!
28
Jun 11, 2009 at 03:04 PM awacs Says:
“ Leo; thank you for your previous comment and also for this one. I based it on a statistic I recently saw that in the non-Jewish world, molestation of girls is close to 60 percent, and molestation of boys is about 40 percent.
In our circles I think that molestation of boys is more prevalent then of girls (probably due to more awareness), but still it is very small.
Leo I think that you and the one from comment #3 are the most qualified to talk to the Rabbonim how to solve this problem. ”
Sixty percent???? Forty percent???
Really? The world is THAT bad, out there?
Do you have a cite for those numbers, Askupeh?
29
Jun 11, 2009 at 03:31 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Here we go again, when all else fails, lob accusations. It only shows the lack of any meaningful arguments.
You are the one perverting the Halacha, and creating G-d in YOUR image; shaping the Halacha to fit your agenda. Harav Elyashiv NEVER Paskened that it is allowed to report (mind you a Mitvah) every molester. He gave a specific Psak to a specific case. He will be the first to tell you that you need to FIRST ask a Rov. If you don’t believe me, ask him.
What you said in #18 that: “Hynes has been in bed with the local hasidic "leadership" for two decades now” – says it all, you’re agendas is against the local Hasidic leadership; and as the saying goes "all politics is local". ”
This is a translation Rav Elyashiv's psak regarding reporting child molesters to the police:
"From the words of the Rashba we learn that in matters that concern societal welfare the Sages of Israel of every generation have the authority to make fences (to extend their authority and decide matters according to their best judgment) and to stand in the breach, even without government authorization. And concerning that which the Rashba wrote in his novel insights to Baba Metzia (84b) implies that this is (based on) governmental authority: "If they say to him `Arrest him,' and we are dealing in a case in which there are no witnesses or forewarning and in which there is no Sanhedrin (Supreme Court that has the authority to impose capital punishment) [and therefore according to strict Jewish law a Jewish Court cannot convict such a person], this case is different because they (the members of the Jewish Court) are agents of the king (government) and the king's law allows for capital punishment even without witnesses and forewarning, in order to discipline the world..." Accordingly, in matters of societal welfare IT IS NOT NECESSARY TO RECEIVE PRIOR APPROVAL. The permission to report (an abuser) to the government is when one is certain that he transgressed, in this there is benefit to society."
As for how rampant child sexual abuse is in the community, why don't you ask people that are dealing with these cases on a daily basis, such as Rabbi Yaakov Horowitz, Rabbi Dr. Bentzion Twerski, or any frum psychologist or frum pediatrician for that matter. You can ask them if you really care. Otherwise, sleep well tonight and continue living in denial, until G-d forbid one of your loved ones gets molested. Perhaps then you will be singing a different tune.
As for the hasidic leadership, their complicity in protecting Mondrowitz and helping him escape to Israel, is well known. There is currently a child molester who is teaching in a Satmar yeshiva where the administration refuses to dismiss him despite the fact that there have been multiple accusers and the fact that he failed a lie detector test. There was a well documented case in the Bobov yeshiva where a "choshuve" author of a sefer raped a deaf child. The child's frum pediatrician reported the case to Hynes and Hynes let the perp walk free. Rabbi Horowitz himself stated that there are more cases in the Hasidic community than in the rest of the frum community. Despite his opposition to the Markey bill, Rabbi Horowitz has been one of the few voices of reason in the frum community. That is because he sees firsthand how rampant this problem is. So before you show off your ignorance by saying how minor the problem is, go talk to the people that really know something.
.
30
Jun 11, 2009 at 05:03 PM ga Says:
“ This is a translation Rav Elyashiv's psak regarding reporting child molesters to the police:
"From the words of the Rashba we learn that in matters that concern societal welfare the Sages of Israel of every generation have the authority to make fences (to extend their authority and decide matters according to their best judgment) and to stand in the breach, even without government authorization. And concerning that which the Rashba wrote in his novel insights to Baba Metzia (84b) implies that this is (based on) governmental authority: "If they say to him `Arrest him,' and we are dealing in a case in which there are no witnesses or forewarning and in which there is no Sanhedrin (Supreme Court that has the authority to impose capital punishment) [and therefore according to strict Jewish law a Jewish Court cannot convict such a person], this case is different because they (the members of the Jewish Court) are agents of the king (government) and the king's law allows for capital punishment even without witnesses and forewarning, in order to discipline the world..." Accordingly, in matters of societal welfare IT IS NOT NECESSARY TO RECEIVE PRIOR APPROVAL. The permission to report (an abuser) to the government is when one is certain that he transgressed, in this there is benefit to society."
As for how rampant child sexual abuse is in the community, why don't you ask people that are dealing with these cases on a daily basis, such as Rabbi Yaakov Horowitz, Rabbi Dr. Bentzion Twerski, or any frum psychologist or frum pediatrician for that matter. You can ask them if you really care. Otherwise, sleep well tonight and continue living in denial, until G-d forbid one of your loved ones gets molested. Perhaps then you will be singing a different tune.
As for the hasidic leadership, their complicity in protecting Mondrowitz and helping him escape to Israel, is well known. There is currently a child molester who is teaching in a Satmar yeshiva where the administration refuses to dismiss him despite the fact that there have been multiple accusers and the fact that he failed a lie detector test. There was a well documented case in the Bobov yeshiva where a "choshuve" author of a sefer raped a deaf child. The child's frum pediatrician reported the case to Hynes and Hynes let the perp walk free. Rabbi Horowitz himself stated that there are more cases in the Hasidic community than in the rest of the frum community. Despite his opposition to the Markey bill, Rabbi Horowitz has been one of the few voices of reason in the frum community. That is because he sees firsthand how rampant this problem is. So before you show off your ignorance by saying how minor the problem is, go talk to the people that really know something.
. ”
Where did Askupeh ever mention that molestation is not rampant? I agree with you (and I'm sure he does as well) that it does happen in our communities - as a frum psychology grad student, I am in touch with frum psychologists and roshei yeshiva (who know what is going on in the world, no matter what you may say) and I know that it's out there - as I mentioned before, it happened to me. All we are saying is that the method that a small group of people has used to expose (no pun intended) the issue is despicable and a huge Chillul Hashem, which I don't for a second believe that Rav Eliyashiv shlit"a would EVER approve of.
31
Jun 11, 2009 at 04:56 PM Askupeh Says:
“ This is a translation Rav Elyashiv's psak regarding reporting child molesters to the police:
"From the words of the Rashba we learn that in matters that concern societal welfare the Sages of Israel of every generation have the authority to make fences (to extend their authority and decide matters according to their best judgment) and to stand in the breach, even without government authorization. And concerning that which the Rashba wrote in his novel insights to Baba Metzia (84b) implies that this is (based on) governmental authority: "If they say to him `Arrest him,' and we are dealing in a case in which there are no witnesses or forewarning and in which there is no Sanhedrin (Supreme Court that has the authority to impose capital punishment) [and therefore according to strict Jewish law a Jewish Court cannot convict such a person], this case is different because they (the members of the Jewish Court) are agents of the king (government) and the king's law allows for capital punishment even without witnesses and forewarning, in order to discipline the world..." Accordingly, in matters of societal welfare IT IS NOT NECESSARY TO RECEIVE PRIOR APPROVAL. The permission to report (an abuser) to the government is when one is certain that he transgressed, in this there is benefit to society."
As for how rampant child sexual abuse is in the community, why don't you ask people that are dealing with these cases on a daily basis, such as Rabbi Yaakov Horowitz, Rabbi Dr. Bentzion Twerski, or any frum psychologist or frum pediatrician for that matter. You can ask them if you really care. Otherwise, sleep well tonight and continue living in denial, until G-d forbid one of your loved ones gets molested. Perhaps then you will be singing a different tune.
As for the hasidic leadership, their complicity in protecting Mondrowitz and helping him escape to Israel, is well known. There is currently a child molester who is teaching in a Satmar yeshiva where the administration refuses to dismiss him despite the fact that there have been multiple accusers and the fact that he failed a lie detector test. There was a well documented case in the Bobov yeshiva where a "choshuve" author of a sefer raped a deaf child. The child's frum pediatrician reported the case to Hynes and Hynes let the perp walk free. Rabbi Horowitz himself stated that there are more cases in the Hasidic community than in the rest of the frum community. Despite his opposition to the Markey bill, Rabbi Horowitz has been one of the few voices of reason in the frum community. That is because he sees firsthand how rampant this problem is. So before you show off your ignorance by saying how minor the problem is, go talk to the people that really know something.
. ”
So you are basing it on these words “Accordingly, in matters of societal welfare IT IS NOT NECESSARY TO RECEIVE PRIOR APPROVAL (emphasis yours). The permission to report (an abuser) to the government is when one is certain that he transgressed, in this there is benefit to society."
I don’t see what you see. He writes that you have to be “certain that he transgressed” and that ”there is benefit to society". In order to have that certainty you need to first ask a ROV, no question about it.
There is no question that if someone take out a knife and wants to kill you, or rape you, that you SHOULD get as fast as possible to a telephone and call the police. We are talking Leacher Hamaseh, where I’m sure that Harav Elyashiv would tell you that you need to ask a Rov first. Again he is Boruch Hashem alive and you can ask him if you don’t believe me.
Besides this is in middle of a Teshuvah; please bring the last few paragraphs where he actually Paskens.
We both have respect for Rabbi Horowitz and Rabbi Twesky. Please ask any of them if YOU are correct.
I think I know more then something about this, and think that it’s arrogance or rather Rishess (a product of arrogance) to blow it out of proportion.
32
Jun 11, 2009 at 07:27 PM Anonymous Says:
“ So you are basing it on these words “Accordingly, in matters of societal welfare IT IS NOT NECESSARY TO RECEIVE PRIOR APPROVAL (emphasis yours). The permission to report (an abuser) to the government is when one is certain that he transgressed, in this there is benefit to society."
I don’t see what you see. He writes that you have to be “certain that he transgressed” and that ”there is benefit to society". In order to have that certainty you need to first ask a ROV, no question about it.
There is no question that if someone take out a knife and wants to kill you, or rape you, that you SHOULD get as fast as possible to a telephone and call the police. We are talking Leacher Hamaseh, where I’m sure that Harav Elyashiv would tell you that you need to ask a Rov first. Again he is Boruch Hashem alive and you can ask him if you don’t believe me.
Besides this is in middle of a Teshuvah; please bring the last few paragraphs where he actually Paskens.
We both have respect for Rabbi Horowitz and Rabbi Twesky. Please ask any of them if YOU are correct.
I think I know more then something about this, and think that it’s arrogance or rather Rishess (a product of arrogance) to blow it out of proportion. ”
No, it's rishus and arrogance like your's that has allowed this plague to fester in our community. It's rishus and arrogance like your's that leads to downplaying the extent of the problem and gives a free pass to child molesters. It's rishus and arrogance like your's that is labelled as " chassid shoteh" that has allowed sexual predators to remain at large rather than being locked up in jail. If you see a woman drowning, do you jump in the sea to save her or do you call your rav on the cellphone do get a heter? If your child was molested, do you run to the police before the perv strikes again, or do you make an appointment with a posek to ask your shaila? I showed you point blank what Rav Elyashiv wrote. Others like Rav Sternbuch concur with this ruling. NOT ONE RAV WAS POSEK THAT TURNING IN CHILD MOLESTERS TO THE POLICE IS MESIRA!!! NOT ONE!!! NOT ONE RAV WAS POSEK THAT YOU MUST FIRST ASK BEFORE GOING TO THE POLICE!!! NOT ONE!!! No one would dare be a zaken mamreh. However, we have people like yourself that go around with your brand of Judaism that leaves our children vulnerable to attack and that revictimizes the victims of sexual abuse. It's about time we put an end to these perverted interpretations of halacha and bring and end to the rein of the child molesters and their enablers, yemach shemam vezichram!
33
Jun 11, 2009 at 07:24 PM yehudala Says:
If we as a people do not go head on with sex offenders then I'm 100% that this will happen to a loved one. Not today nor tomorrow but it will trust me ! Good night American yid !
34
Jun 11, 2009 at 06:35 PM Leo Says:
“ Leo; thank you for your previous comment and also for this one. I based it on a statistic I recently saw that in the non-Jewish world, molestation of girls is close to 60 percent, and molestation of boys is about 40 percent.
In our circles I think that molestation of boys is more prevalent then of girls (probably due to more awareness), but still it is very small.
Leo I think that you and the one from comment #3 are the most qualified to talk to the Rabbonim how to solve this problem. ”
Askupeh
Thank you, yes I now remember that I have seen similar statistics if these statistics are right for sure the orthodox problem, would dwarf the other communities, that is good news.
As for the so-called child advocates we need to know who they are, and keep in mind that they are suspect too. In the mid 1980’s in a small town Bakersfield CA more then a dozen people were arrested and convicted for sexual molestation, and years latter, it was proven in appellate court that it was all a lie. If you look closely at that story, bells should have been going off that all theses people were arrested on the word of one therapist who was a child advocate and one prosecutor, it is interesting to note that this child advocate got famous and went all over the US for lectures on child molestation and got rich on the backs of these unfortunate people.
From my personal experience and the reflection afterward taught me that most victims would initially want, noting more then an “I am sorry” and protection for themselves and others who might be effected, and the people with authority to believe them they are not out to put the offender into jail. This is what the child advocate needs to understand. My hope is that Rabbis and askunen do something and do not deny that there is a problem even one case is considered a problem.
35
Jun 11, 2009 at 07:47 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Askupeh
Thank you, yes I now remember that I have seen similar statistics if these statistics are right for sure the orthodox problem, would dwarf the other communities, that is good news.
As for the so-called child advocates we need to know who they are, and keep in mind that they are suspect too. In the mid 1980’s in a small town Bakersfield CA more then a dozen people were arrested and convicted for sexual molestation, and years latter, it was proven in appellate court that it was all a lie. If you look closely at that story, bells should have been going off that all theses people were arrested on the word of one therapist who was a child advocate and one prosecutor, it is interesting to note that this child advocate got famous and went all over the US for lectures on child molestation and got rich on the backs of these unfortunate people.
From my personal experience and the reflection afterward taught me that most victims would initially want, noting more then an “I am sorry” and protection for themselves and others who might be effected, and the people with authority to believe them they are not out to put the offender into jail. This is what the child advocate needs to understand. My hope is that Rabbis and askunen do something and do not deny that there is a problem even one case is considered a problem.
”
How do they protect themselves and others if the offenders are not put in jail? Child molesters if given the chance will molest again. You make no sense whatsoever.
36
Jun 11, 2009 at 07:44 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Where did Askupeh ever mention that molestation is not rampant? I agree with you (and I'm sure he does as well) that it does happen in our communities - as a frum psychology grad student, I am in touch with frum psychologists and roshei yeshiva (who know what is going on in the world, no matter what you may say) and I know that it's out there - as I mentioned before, it happened to me. All we are saying is that the method that a small group of people has used to expose (no pun intended) the issue is despicable and a huge Chillul Hashem, which I don't for a second believe that Rav Eliyashiv shlit"a would EVER approve of. ”
See his comment #25 where he says "it is very small". "Very small" does not mean rampant. How many victims is no longer considered "small"? One hundred? One thousand? Ten thousand? How much is one of these neshomos worth? That we're even discussing the extent of the problem instead of acknowledging the severity of it and offering solutions, is disgusting. It speaks volumes of where our priorities are and how much we truly care.
37
Jun 11, 2009 at 08:20 PM Anonymous Says:
“ No, it's rishus and arrogance like your's that has allowed this plague to fester in our community. It's rishus and arrogance like your's that leads to downplaying the extent of the problem and gives a free pass to child molesters. It's rishus and arrogance like your's that is labelled as " chassid shoteh" that has allowed sexual predators to remain at large rather than being locked up in jail. If you see a woman drowning, do you jump in the sea to save her or do you call your rav on the cellphone do get a heter? If your child was molested, do you run to the police before the perv strikes again, or do you make an appointment with a posek to ask your shaila? I showed you point blank what Rav Elyashiv wrote. Others like Rav Sternbuch concur with this ruling. NOT ONE RAV WAS POSEK THAT TURNING IN CHILD MOLESTERS TO THE POLICE IS MESIRA!!! NOT ONE!!! NOT ONE RAV WAS POSEK THAT YOU MUST FIRST ASK BEFORE GOING TO THE POLICE!!! NOT ONE!!! No one would dare be a zaken mamreh. However, we have people like yourself that go around with your brand of Judaism that leaves our children vulnerable to attack and that revictimizes the victims of sexual abuse. It's about time we put an end to these perverted interpretations of halacha and bring and end to the rein of the child molesters and their enablers, yemach shemam vezichram! ”
I need to take issue with your condemnation of Askupeh,
during my family ordeal I remember he was respectful and never used any derogatory comment to the victim or myself. From all his writings I could extrapolate that he believes when a parent or legal guardian finds out that there might be molestation and it is not happening at that moment, they need to first talk to a Rabbi for guidance; I do not see anything wrong with that view. Any father who does not have the training how to handle this type situation would get enraged to the point they might commit physical harm or even attempted murder. The person needs to take a breath and consult someone who if they look into the story without having a personal interest to see if it is true and them get advise if it should be reported to the police.
One thing I need to stress that schools and organization need to be mindful of sexual abuse reporting requirement, they cannot obstruct justice it is a crime and punishable with 20 years in jail in addition the civil liability would be huge.
You sound you are in pain, if that is true I hope you find peace and tranquility.
38
Jun 11, 2009 at 09:20 PM Leo Says:
sorry i am # 37
39
Jun 11, 2009 at 09:52 PM A Pushita Yid Says:
“ Thank you for putting these Meshugoyim like comment #1 in place. I wish you a good and productive and happy life for acting like a Yid.
Now I turn my attention to the rest of you.
I TOLD YOU SO. What Charles Hynes knows now, WE (the normal ones among us) knew from the beginning that this whole thing is way exaggerated? For the last few months I have been telling you that compared to the Goyishe world, where it is really an epidemic, the amount of molestation in the Frum community is very SMALL. Again for those who are about to read what they want into my words I’ll again say that “of course one case is TOO many”; but from there to go berserk like comment # 1 (I think I know who he is) – is a far cry.
In the Catholic Church it is the clergy who are molesting the children; By Yiden it is NOT the Rabbonim who are the molesters, but mostly it happens at home, with also a small amount at school, by a Melamed, janitor, or other.
Again I’m all for doing everything in our power to eliminate it entirely by us Yiden, but NOT by making a SHTINK in the Goyishe media. ”
A shtink in the goyishe world is not so much that we have a couple of sickies- they can probably understand that we are humans with human problems. A shtink in the goyishe world is that we and our rabbonim TOLERATE this. THAT'S a chillul Hashem!
40
Jun 11, 2009 at 09:02 PM nebech Says:
“ Askupeh
Thank you, yes I now remember that I have seen similar statistics if these statistics are right for sure the orthodox problem, would dwarf the other communities, that is good news.
As for the so-called child advocates we need to know who they are, and keep in mind that they are suspect too. In the mid 1980’s in a small town Bakersfield CA more then a dozen people were arrested and convicted for sexual molestation, and years latter, it was proven in appellate court that it was all a lie. If you look closely at that story, bells should have been going off that all theses people were arrested on the word of one therapist who was a child advocate and one prosecutor, it is interesting to note that this child advocate got famous and went all over the US for lectures on child molestation and got rich on the backs of these unfortunate people.
From my personal experience and the reflection afterward taught me that most victims would initially want, noting more then an “I am sorry” and protection for themselves and others who might be effected, and the people with authority to believe them they are not out to put the offender into jail. This is what the child advocate needs to understand. My hope is that Rabbis and askunen do something and do not deny that there is a problem even one case is considered a problem.
”
so you really know that sometimes it comes out years later that it was a big lie! Leo!!!!! should your ears hear what your mouth/fingers just said!
41
Jun 11, 2009 at 08:56 PM Leo Says:
“ How do they protect themselves and others if the offenders are not put in jail? Child molesters if given the chance will molest again. You make no sense whatsoever. ”
As a victim and a strong supporter of my nice during her ordeal I always said that if it is a repeat offender, it must be reported to the police, however I don’t think that it would be beneficial to the community at large that every person who might believe that a sexual activity might go on between a adult and minor should run to the police without consulting a Rabbi or professional, if not you will have every Tom Dick and Harry running wild with accusations that would not be productive at all, eventually people would say stop crying wolf and real victims would suffer.
42
Jun 11, 2009 at 08:48 PM you dont know Says:
you dont know what happened in another house unless you were there! innocent people are convicted to! anyone could make up such stories and its very hard to proof! the new style todays days is when a couple is devorcing the first story that comes up is sexual abuse. its a kind of germ that comes along with a divorce! there are sure molesters out there, but you could not judge anyone
43
Jun 11, 2009 at 11:04 PM yiddishe bubby Says:
what does overblown mean even if there are a fewer cases than is the case in the media yidden one case is too many. Hines is the man responsible for not bringing mondrowitz to justice, sit in your ivory towers and tell the people who were affected that it is overblown. I hope that he looses this next election, he's a clown, a dangerous one.
44
Jun 12, 2009 at 07:02 AM Anonymous Says:
All this discussion about numbers, and there has not been a single piece of research to collect this information. We are only able to base our observations on anecdotal evidence, and then we formulate opinions. This can be done, but it is the exception when two such opinions agree. Let’s not bother with these estimates of what has not and probably cannot be studied scientifically. We need to know that the problem exists, and it flourishes in the absence of a system to help stop it. We also value each individual too much to excuse even a single instance as a “small” problem. Every yochid is an “olam moleh”, and we will pursue whatever it takes to keep our children safe.
As for the tshuvah by Rav Elyoshiv shlit”a, I encourage anyone who is capable to obtain a copy of it and read through it. The claim that he is paskening for a specific situation appears to be inaccurate. The tshuvah, as per my reading, is a general statement about how the community should address the problem. I have little problem with anyone consulting their Rav first, as the immediate danger is rarely such that the time it takes to speak to a Rav will increase risk. I would also hope that the consultant Rav will have access to the tshuvah, and will take exception only if there is a justifiable reason to do so.
I also believe that the DA is correct. The problem is not a small one, but it is also not a rampant epidemic, as the media and some activists would have it. I certainly hope that this project will create a system that will allow discreet investigation and handling of all cases so that we completely avoid the circus of media and chilul Hashem. Every molester that is identified and removed from the community is a chesed for every child, every family, and every Yid.
There are changes in laws that are indicated here. I have read all the proposals, and most seem rational and likely to be effective. There is no doubt that there must be change. Screaming won’t help much, and true action will. The DA is finally contributing a program that has action as its agenda, not talk. We should be joining in with support and chizuk of every kind. The shmutz that some commenters are trying to throw here is unacceptable and counterproductive. Let us help any program that will work with the community to arrest this problem and make our community safer.
45
Jun 12, 2009 at 09:32 AM Leo Says:
“ so you really know that sometimes it comes out years later that it was a big lie! Leo!!!!! should your ears hear what your mouth/fingers just said! ”
Nebech
I think I understand what you are alluding to; I do not want to rehash "that", noting will change. However, for clarification purposes I will attempt to clarify what I wrote last night. In the CA case you had over twenty kids 6-8 year old who testified at that age that the were molested my theses 13 adults. Year’s later all (except one) theses kids came forward, and, pointed a finger at the child advocate and the prosecutor that they were manipulated into making the faults charges. You need to remember that when theses kids testified in court all except one was under eight years old, the vast majority were only six years old. Now think about this, no adult in their late 20’s would subject themselves to a grueling cross-examination if it were not true. Moreover, if you know that the same character has molested you, it would be incumbent on you to do, the right thing i.e. report him to the authorities.
46
Jun 12, 2009 at 12:22 PM MalachHamovies Says:
As for the hasidic leadership, their complicity in protecting Mondrowitz and helping him escape to Israel, is well known. There is currently a child molester who is teaching in a Satmar yeshiva where the administration refuses to dismiss him despite the fact that there have been multiple accusers and the fact that he failed a lie detector test. There was a well documented case in the Bobov yeshiva where a "choshuve" author of a sefer raped a deaf child. The child's frum pediatrician reported the case to Hynes and Hynes let the perp walk free. Rabbi Horowitz himself stated that there are more cases in the Hasidic community than in the rest of the frum community. Despite his opposition to the Markey bill, Rabbi Horowitz has been one of the few voices of reason in the frum community. That is because he sees firsthand how rampant this problem is. So before you show off your ignorance by saying how minor the problem is, go talk to the people that really know something.
Don't forget the story about 20 years ago about a child in BOBOV that hung himself in the bathrooms.He was molested by older children because his parents were converts. The Bobover Rebbe Z"l was crying and was maspid at his funeral.
How many more karbones are there going to be ??
I'm so happy that there are some people against "markey". It means that they or their children were never molested or were railroaded or threatened by Rabbanim, Roshei Yeshivas or Principals.
If that's the case, may you never have to be for a bill that would protect children. Including yours.
47
Jun 12, 2009 at 12:58 PM Askupeh Says:
“ All this discussion about numbers, and there has not been a single piece of research to collect this information. We are only able to base our observations on anecdotal evidence, and then we formulate opinions. This can be done, but it is the exception when two such opinions agree. Let’s not bother with these estimates of what has not and probably cannot be studied scientifically. We need to know that the problem exists, and it flourishes in the absence of a system to help stop it. We also value each individual too much to excuse even a single instance as a “small” problem. Every yochid is an “olam moleh”, and we will pursue whatever it takes to keep our children safe.
As for the tshuvah by Rav Elyoshiv shlit”a, I encourage anyone who is capable to obtain a copy of it and read through it. The claim that he is paskening for a specific situation appears to be inaccurate. The tshuvah, as per my reading, is a general statement about how the community should address the problem. I have little problem with anyone consulting their Rav first, as the immediate danger is rarely such that the time it takes to speak to a Rav will increase risk. I would also hope that the consultant Rav will have access to the tshuvah, and will take exception only if there is a justifiable reason to do so.
I also believe that the DA is correct. The problem is not a small one, but it is also not a rampant epidemic, as the media and some activists would have it. I certainly hope that this project will create a system that will allow discreet investigation and handling of all cases so that we completely avoid the circus of media and chilul Hashem. Every molester that is identified and removed from the community is a chesed for every child, every family, and every Yid.
There are changes in laws that are indicated here. I have read all the proposals, and most seem rational and likely to be effective. There is no doubt that there must be change. Screaming won’t help much, and true action will. The DA is finally contributing a program that has action as its agenda, not talk. We should be joining in with support and chizuk of every kind. The shmutz that some commenters are trying to throw here is unacceptable and counterproductive. Let us help any program that will work with the community to arrest this problem and make our community safer.
”
You are right on target. I agree with you on everything except that the Psak of Harav Elyashiv was a personal one, not a Psak for everyone. It is impossible that he would have given a blanket Heter. I did not read the Psak; I would like too, if anyone can post the original in Hebrew, but based on everything I know, and Kol Yomei Gidalti Bein Chachomim, going to the authorities needs a Heter from a Rov. You can’t compare Leacher Hamaseh with Beshas Maseh or Koidem Hamaseh as someone here suggested.
Leo, I wasn’t by my computer for the last 20 hours, so I couldn’t respond, and maybe its better that way (Veloi Motzosi Laguf Toiv Meshtikah). So I would like to thank you for sticking up for me, and more important, for sticking up for the Ribonoi Shel Oilom and for his Torah. You show what a true Yid is, that it is NOT the instigators who are for the children and the Torah against the children; it is the other way around it is the instigators who want to destroy every vestige of respect for the Torah, and it is pure agenda that drives them.
Those who aren’t instigators need not get insulted; I only mean the hotheads who have instigated this Shtink with comment after comment.
Leo, I wish you all the Brochess in the Torah, Gut Shabbos.