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Jerusalem – Kosher Restaurants Refusing a Kashrut Hechsher |
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The Jerusalem Marakiya is one restaurant where you will receive such a response. Owner Noam Frankforter, an observant Jew, says that the restaurant is kosher and closed on Shabbat, but he chooses not to have a teudah for ideological reasons.
"Part of the point is that I am trying to break the sense of alienation, distrust and suspicion that exists among people in today's society. I say to people who come here that if they try to get to know me, they will realize that I keep kosher."
Frankforter believes that in general there is no need for a teudah. But if restaurant owners choose to acquire one, it should be administered by an organization with trustworthy workers, who do not give in to self-interest and corruption. He says that this is a significant consideration in his decision not to acquire a teudah from the rabbinate.
"I don't want to pay the rabbinate money," he says. "In my opinion, the rabbinate does not do a good job. They are detached from reality. They have their own self-interests and are not faithful agents of kashrut."
Frankforter says that many people in Jerusalem's religious community have responded positively to what he is trying to achieve. "In general people ask if I have a teudah and I try to be patient and explain the idea behind not having one. It is more complicated than simply not having one, and there are many people out there who believe in what we are doing."
One potential problem with this approach, however, is that the Marakiya displays an old-fashioned wooden sign that reads "Kosher" on a ledge at the back of the restaurant. In one case, customers ordered their food and only then realized that the restaurant did not bear a kosher certificate from a halachic authority.
Another Jerusalem restaurateur who considers his establishment kosher, even without supervision, is Gilad Kanfi, owner of Humous Ben-Sira in the center of town.
According to Kanfi, the restaurant uses strictly kosher products and is completely kosher, serving Beit Yosef meat, mehadrin chicken, badatz humous and rabbinate vegetables. His reasons for not having a teudah are primarily financial but also out of frustration with the rabbinate, believing that he would not get value for money from the rabbinate.
"I don't need someone to come and check up on me for half an hour and simply sit and drink coffee instead of doing his job," he says. Kanfi admits that not having a teudah does affect business but that "It is all a matter of priority." He says that being around for 40 years means that people have gotten to know and trust him. The restaurant has regular customers, which include haredim.
Michael Shaulson, a 27-year-old observant Jew who will eat in kosher restaurants without a teudah, explains his decision to do so. "If I go to a friend's house, I don't ask to see a teudat kashrut. Just like I'll go to a friend's house that fits the kashrut criteria, I will also go to a restaurant that fits the criteria," he says. "Kashrut isn't a set of certificates, it is a set of laws. If you know them well enough, then you can negotiate your way through life applying them without having someone else [kashrut authorities] doing it for you," he adds.
He also suggests that although teudot kashrut may serve as an important tool to the kosher consumer, it does not imply that establishments without certificates are invariably not kosher.
"They [teudot] can play an important purpose in saying that restaurants are kosher, but that's not saying that if an establishment does not have one it is not kosher," he says.
"Kashrut existed before there was such a thing as a teudat kashrut. There weren't chains of kashrut authorities when people ate in inns in the Middle Ages. It was kosher because someone who ran it kept kosher."
However, not all Jerusalemites view restaurants without teudot in the same way.
Sarah Asch, a 25-year-old Modern Orthodox Jew, won't eat in a place in Jerusalem without a hechsher (kosher certification) even if its owners claim that it is kosher. "For me it's a matter that if there are kosher restaurants available, why would I want to go to one that doesn't have a hechsher? I understand the plight of these people [restaurants without teudot], but I want to go to a place where I know that someone has taken responsibility for inspecting the place in which I am eating."
Asch, an immigrant from Australia, says that in her hometown of Melbourne she may have considered drinking coffee in a place without a hechsher, and the same with places like Tel Aviv, where the majority of restaurants do not have kosher certification, but if the option is available to eat in establishments with teudot, then she will choose to eat there. "In Tel Aviv I'm more likely to go to a bar that is not kosher, but I would never dream of getting coffee in Jerusalem from a place without a hechsher," she says.
While some eateries are opting to not have kosher certification, other religious groups are establishing alternatives to rabbinate certification. In Israel, there are private haredi organizations called badatzim - Beit Din Tzedek (Court of Justice) - that oversee kashrut alongside the chief rabbinate. While some establishments with badatz certification also obtain a rabbinate certificate, some rely solely on a badatz teudah.
In addition, Masorti movement leaders met a few weeks ago to discuss a program, due to begin next fall, that will train Masorti rabbis to be mashgichim (kashrut supervisors). Rabbi Andrew Sacks, director of the Masorti Rabbinical Assembly of Israel, says that the Masorti movement wants to create a kosher structure independent of the rabbinate whose standards are in keeping with the philosophies of the Masorti movement.
When asked about restaurants with no kosher certification, Sacks advised that consumers need to be cautious about eating in such establishments. "We don't have a teudah in our homes and our friends come and eat, but in a commercial kitchen they may have a financial incentive to cut corners, so we rely on a mashgiach to say it's kosher. If something does not have a teudah, then an individual needs to be extra scrupulous in determining whether or not the place is kosher or not kosher."
Sacks says that the main differences between the Masorti and rabbinate hechsherim are that in the case of the Masorti movement, "Kashrut will be based on laws and not the economic interest of the overseeing body."
Sacks also says that the Masorti movement does not believe in the concept of mehadrin, a term that literally means "beautiful" or "embellished," but which in the kashrut world refers to food that has undergone a higher level of kosher supervision. "We do not believe in mehadrin. Something is either kosher, in keeping with our standards, or not," says Sacks.
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Read Comments (56) — Post Yours »
1
Jun 13, 2009 at 10:46 PM Anonymous Says:
He's right. Most hashgachos here in the US aren't worth the paper their written on. Many food items have multiple endorsements because one rabbi doesn't trust the other. If so, how can the consumer be expected to trust any of them. It's all one big racket.
2
Jun 13, 2009 at 10:45 PM a villainsburger Says:
Gimme a break, not getting a hechsher for "financial reasons"?
Newsflash! Rumor has it that a rocket scientist from Harvard with a triple Phd in macrosocioeconomics calculated after a 30 year controlled study, that a te'udat kashrut actually expands your customer base, resulting through some complicated equations in an enhanced net income.
That is if you're anyhow using exclusively kosher products.
Look at it as a minimal capital investment.
If he truly has nothing to hide, nothing to be afraid of, he has nothing to lose and lots to gain if he invests in a hechsher.
Any sane individual who'll trust a food establishment lacking a hechser, relying solely on the proprietors recognizance, is fooling no one but himself.
Gotta love that Frankforter guy with the "ideological" reason. Just proves that people will say anything to sound stupid.
Just curious, if someone would guarantee him to boost his Zagat rating (or whatever they got there), in exchange for paying some one to sit for 30 minutes and drink exchange for paying some one to sit for 30 minutes and drink coffee, do you think he'll check first if it's in tandem with his "priorities"?
3
Jun 13, 2009 at 10:36 PM Anonymous Says:
Is masorti conservative?
4
Jun 13, 2009 at 10:26 PM yoelyg Says:
he is a stupid guy, he will close down the resturant. in wiliamsburg the truck on lee av loose his hacsher & he close down
5
Jun 13, 2009 at 10:18 PM Anonymous Says:
Kol hakovod to these erhleche yiddin who are willing to stand up to the rabbinical establishemnt and not pay outrageous amounts for hashgacha. We should know the people who own the restaurants and have confidence in them if we eat there. If not, than eat at home or pay more for a place with a tedudah.
6
Jun 13, 2009 at 10:06 PM Anonymous Says:
The Previous Lubavitcher Rebbe wrote that even an establishment run by a frum person, a person that you would eat in his own home, when it comes to his establishemnt, i.e. him managing a food business , it requires a Hashgacha.
We have way too many stories these days.
Not to say that with a Hashgacha everything is alright but al pi halacha at least you have what to rely on.
7
Jun 13, 2009 at 10:06 PM Anonymous Says:
the difference between eating in your friends house & eating @ a restaraunt is that you know your friend & his kashrus standards, whereas you probably don't know the owner personallly (or his employees for that matter)....
8
Jun 13, 2009 at 10:04 PM Anonymous Says:
true the kashrus org. are not very good but without it the stores will do whatever they want
9
Jun 13, 2009 at 09:57 PM annonymousdude1@gmail.com Says:
I agree with this person.Having a certificate doesn't mean anything,and not having one doesn't either mean anything...this mafia of rabbis must be broken....Control control control............
10
Jun 13, 2009 at 09:56 PM Anonymous Says:
If somebody wearing a kippah esrugah told me his resturant didn't have a hechsher the only thing I would order is water in a piastic cup
11
Jun 13, 2009 at 10:49 PM Anonymous Says:
I feel the same way. Here in NY I wont eat in a restaurant that has a hashgacha. Having been in the food business I know first hand that rabinical supervision means NOTHING!!!!!
12
Jun 13, 2009 at 11:32 PM Heimeshe Restaurant Owner Says:
The right answer is a combination of trust and hashgocho. An owner that truly wants to fool the rav hamachshir can probably get away with it for a while. The purpose of hasgocho is to put fear in the owner not to try anything as he can be caught. Also, it is to set standars, and not that every owner can choose the level of kshrus that he wants.
13
Jun 13, 2009 at 11:24 PM Anonymous Says:
Where does it say in halacha that you need a hechsher ? Its a new thing for the last 30 years
14
Jun 13, 2009 at 11:16 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I agree with this person.Having a certificate doesn't mean anything,and not having one doesn't either mean anything...this mafia of rabbis must be broken....Control control control............ ”
U sound lilke a guy who eats lunch evryday at McDONALDS!
15
Jun 14, 2009 at 01:00 AM Milhouse Says:
“ The Previous Lubavitcher Rebbe wrote that even an establishment run by a frum person, a person that you would eat in his own home, when it comes to his establishemnt, i.e. him managing a food business , it requires a Hashgacha.
We have way too many stories these days.
Not to say that with a Hashgacha everything is alright but al pi halacha at least you have what to rely on. ”
That is not what the halacha says. A person can adopt whatever hiddurim he likes, but nobody has the right to pretend that this is required.
16
Jun 14, 2009 at 05:07 AM Anonymous Says:
One witness is trusted for isurim
17
Jun 14, 2009 at 02:14 AM Milhouse Says:
I went into one restaurant in Israel and asked who gave the hechsher, and the owner pointed to his kappel and said "zeh hateudah sheli". In principle, he's right. If I knew that he wore the kappel outside work too, and was seen in shul davening every day, and was kovea itim latorah, and in general behaved like an erlicher yid should behave, he would need no teudah. But I was a visitor in Israel, and couldn't possibly know these things. If he had had a teudah from a rov who knew him, attesting to his personal ne'emonus, that would have been sufficient, and no actual hashgocho of his premises would be necessary.
That's as far as ne'emonus and basic kashrus is concerned. But even when someone is ne'emon, and one can eat in his home, there are many questions we must ask nowadays. There are many standards of kashrus, all valid, but we each stick to one standard for ourselves, and the balabos may have a different one. If we are strict about glatt and he is not, or about yoshon, or cholov yisroel, or bishul akum, or many many other things that depend on machlokos haposkim, where many people are legitimately mekil while we personally are machmir, then we must know how he holds.
For instance, if we learn that he uses gelatin, and we do not, then before we eat anything we must ask him whether it contains gelatin. And while in his home we say stam kelim einom benei yomon, the metzius is that that isn't the case in a restaurant. In this respect too, a hechsher helps, because we can know the hechsher-giver's standards and needn't ask the restaurateur for his. In America we know that anything with an OU does not contain gelatin of a treife origin. In Israel we know that the regular rabbanut does allow it but the rabbanut mehadrin does not, and nor do the Badatz and R Landau. This allows us to easily determine which places fit our standards, without doing our own research. But the option still remains to do it the hard way, and ask all the right questions, and determine for ourselves whether to eat.
18
Jun 14, 2009 at 03:12 AM Anonymous Says:
As a mashgiach I have been inside may places run by elrlich, frum yidden and have instructed them to make certain changes based on halacha. It isn't that they meant to do something wrong, people make mistakes, including their employees. An outside set of eyes can often see what they overlook. Perfect?, No. Better than relying on the owner to watch every detail? Yes. Less chance of making a decision based on $$? Yes.
19
Jun 14, 2009 at 02:04 AM Anonymous Says:
In Jerusalem the rabbinate removes the hechsher just because a restaurant would do a Christmas or New Year party (for embassies, or other christians, etc.) but keeps the hechsher (mehadrin!!!)( of restaurants owned by the mafia (real mafia, dealing with drugs, protection money, and lower stuff), I'd say I am not surprised at all...
20
Jun 14, 2009 at 07:27 AM Milhouse Says:
“ As a mashgiach I have been inside may places run by elrlich, frum yidden and have instructed them to make certain changes based on halacha. It isn't that they meant to do something wrong, people make mistakes, including their employees. An outside set of eyes can often see what they overlook. Perfect?, No. Better than relying on the owner to watch every detail? Yes. Less chance of making a decision based on $$? Yes. ”
People make mistakes at home too. Probably more often than at restaurants. But the din is still that you can eat at any observant Jew's home.
21
Jun 14, 2009 at 07:35 AM Milhouse Says:
“ the difference between eating in your friends house & eating @ a restaraunt is that you know your friend & his kashrus standards, whereas you probably don't know the owner personallly (or his employees for that matter).... ”
Exactly. 30 or 40 years ago, our communities were small enough that everybody knew everybody else, so we didn't need hechsherim. We saw the restaurateur in shul, our kids went to school with his kids, we wouldn't hesitate to eat at his home, so why wouldn't we eat at his restaurant? And travel wasn't nearly as common as it is today, because it was so expensive, so the question of trusting restaurants in other communities didn't come up much. If we did travel, we just asked a local whether a restaurant was considered reliable or not.
Today our communities are far too big to know everybody, and travel has become cheap and therefore common, so it's rare that we know the restaurateur personally. That's why we need hechsherim today, when we didn't need them before; they enable us to eat at places where we don't know the owner, and don't even know anyone who knows him.
22
Jun 14, 2009 at 07:23 AM Anonymous Says:
I've walked into more than one restaurant in Jerusalem, asked if they had a teudah, watched the owner/server point to it, start to order, found something seemed "not right", reinspected the teudah, and saw that it was expired -- sometimes by many years. In fact, one place that seemed "not right" had basar lavan in with the rest of its meat. Granted, these teudot were expired, but just because an owner says he has a teudah or even seems to have one doesn't make a place kosher.
23
Jun 14, 2009 at 07:04 AM Anonymous Says:
“ The Previous Lubavitcher Rebbe wrote that even an establishment run by a frum person, a person that you would eat in his own home, when it comes to his establishemnt, i.e. him managing a food business , it requires a Hashgacha.
We have way too many stories these days.
Not to say that with a Hashgacha everything is alright but al pi halacha at least you have what to rely on. ”
The point is that you DON'T have what to rely on! Just because someone has a hechsher, it doesn't mean that it is kosher. These Rabbis take the money and don't care about the kashrus.
24
Jun 14, 2009 at 06:54 AM Anonymous Says:
“ I went into one restaurant in Israel and asked who gave the hechsher, and the owner pointed to his kappel and said "zeh hateudah sheli". In principle, he's right. If I knew that he wore the kappel outside work too, and was seen in shul davening every day, and was kovea itim latorah, and in general behaved like an erlicher yid should behave, he would need no teudah. But I was a visitor in Israel, and couldn't possibly know these things. If he had had a teudah from a rov who knew him, attesting to his personal ne'emonus, that would have been sufficient, and no actual hashgocho of his premises would be necessary.
That's as far as ne'emonus and basic kashrus is concerned. But even when someone is ne'emon, and one can eat in his home, there are many questions we must ask nowadays. There are many standards of kashrus, all valid, but we each stick to one standard for ourselves, and the balabos may have a different one. If we are strict about glatt and he is not, or about yoshon, or cholov yisroel, or bishul akum, or many many other things that depend on machlokos haposkim, where many people are legitimately mekil while we personally are machmir, then we must know how he holds.
For instance, if we learn that he uses gelatin, and we do not, then before we eat anything we must ask him whether it contains gelatin. And while in his home we say stam kelim einom benei yomon, the metzius is that that isn't the case in a restaurant. In this respect too, a hechsher helps, because we can know the hechsher-giver's standards and needn't ask the restaurateur for his. In America we know that anything with an OU does not contain gelatin of a treife origin. In Israel we know that the regular rabbanut does allow it but the rabbanut mehadrin does not, and nor do the Badatz and R Landau. This allows us to easily determine which places fit our standards, without doing our own research. But the option still remains to do it the hard way, and ask all the right questions, and determine for ourselves whether to eat. ”
Please keep your shales seides derusha a little shorter. You went until 2:14 A.M.!
25
Jun 14, 2009 at 07:45 AM Anonymous Says:
when i was in Israel we never saw one mashgiach in any restaurant. most restaurants had people without yarmulkahs running the store. this was very confusing. they had the best hashgachas but no mashgichim
26
Jun 14, 2009 at 01:35 AM Anonymous Says:
“ U sound lilke a guy who eats lunch evryday at McDONALDS! ”
I'd consider going to an establishment like this if I did in fact know the guy was shomer kashrus and shomer shabbos, and he was the only one working/cooking there. Then it pretty much IS like eating at your friends house, except you're paying him for the food, but of course the thing is you have to get to know the guy before you'd eat there or be referred by someone who knew him.
The whole point of the hechsher is because if you don't know the guy, you can be assured that the place is kosher. Although places like williamsburg have taught us that you can't even trust places with hechshers from 10 rabbis.
27
Jun 14, 2009 at 01:22 AM Anonymous Says:
SAID
We have way too many stories these days.
Yes indeed and so many of these stories happened and were not caught while under hashgacha!
SAID
Look at it as a minimal capital investment.
No, it is not minimal. Ask anybody in the kosher food business if they find hashgacha costs minimal.
28
Jun 14, 2009 at 01:03 AM Milhouse Says:
“ the difference between eating in your friends house & eating @ a restaraunt is that you know your friend & his kashrus standards, whereas you probably don't know the owner personallly (or his employees for that matter).... ”
And that is exactly it. 40 years ago when the community was small and people didn't travel much, everybody knew the restaurateurs personally, and would eat in their homes, and therefore didn't need a hechsher to eat in their restaurants. But today it's impossible for everybody to know everybody, and we travel much more to other communities where we know nobody, so a teudah is a useful tool for deciding whom to trust.
29
Jun 14, 2009 at 12:45 AM Anonymous Says:
its definitely a crazy world out there.... I know of an establishment that has a frum hechsher but being that the owner (supposedly frum) has no problem being mechallel shabbos - don't you think its questionable to eat there w/ his teudat kashrut?
30
Jun 14, 2009 at 12:42 AM PMO Says:
I 100% agree with this man... in principle. The system is not working well for everyone. However, having no hechsher is not the answer either. I'd like to see someone come up with a BETTER plan.... not NO plan.
31
Jun 14, 2009 at 12:24 AM bunim1 Says:
In truth they are correct but 2day there are too many stories on stores (even with the kosher certification).
32
Jun 14, 2009 at 08:05 AM moish Says:
“ That is not what the halacha says. A person can adopt whatever hiddurim he likes, but nobody has the right to pretend that this is required. ”
It IS what halocho says, at least if you are ashkenazi, this is the shito brought in the remo y.d. 119:1 that someone you don't know personally you may not buy off him but you may eat in his house, this agreed to by the taz the chochmas odom and other achronim, and see further in the darkei teshuva there that bec. of kilkul hadoros they were mesaken in the takonas ho'arotzos that one may not buy from any yid unless he has a hechsher from a rov.
33
Jun 14, 2009 at 08:41 AM Anonymous Says:
“ I went into one restaurant in Israel and asked who gave the hechsher, and the owner pointed to his kappel and said "zeh hateudah sheli". In principle, he's right. If I knew that he wore the kappel outside work too, and was seen in shul davening every day, and was kovea itim latorah, and in general behaved like an erlicher yid should behave, he would need no teudah. But I was a visitor in Israel, and couldn't possibly know these things. If he had had a teudah from a rov who knew him, attesting to his personal ne'emonus, that would have been sufficient, and no actual hashgocho of his premises would be necessary.
That's as far as ne'emonus and basic kashrus is concerned. But even when someone is ne'emon, and one can eat in his home, there are many questions we must ask nowadays. There are many standards of kashrus, all valid, but we each stick to one standard for ourselves, and the balabos may have a different one. If we are strict about glatt and he is not, or about yoshon, or cholov yisroel, or bishul akum, or many many other things that depend on machlokos haposkim, where many people are legitimately mekil while we personally are machmir, then we must know how he holds.
For instance, if we learn that he uses gelatin, and we do not, then before we eat anything we must ask him whether it contains gelatin. And while in his home we say stam kelim einom benei yomon, the metzius is that that isn't the case in a restaurant. In this respect too, a hechsher helps, because we can know the hechsher-giver's standards and needn't ask the restaurateur for his. In America we know that anything with an OU does not contain gelatin of a treife origin. In Israel we know that the regular rabbanut does allow it but the rabbanut mehadrin does not, and nor do the Badatz and R Landau. This allows us to easily determine which places fit our standards, without doing our own research. But the option still remains to do it the hard way, and ask all the right questions, and determine for ourselves whether to eat. ”
You are very naive if think the place is kosher because the owner goes to shul every day.
34
Jun 14, 2009 at 09:29 AM off the cuff Says:
no teudah means no nemanis. i'm sorry to say this but lets face it we also check out our friends houses before we go there if we have a question as to his standards. a guy who wants to open an eatery should do it with the excepted standards lets not forget when it comes to eidus even moshe and aharon are not good. we need to all be on our guard when it comes to these things. just because a guy knows how to keep kosher in his home doesn't mean he knows how to run a mass scale operation with a bunch of goyishe people in a kitchen when he's greeting people at the front.
35
Jun 14, 2009 at 09:38 AM Anonymous Says:
Ask any eatery owner how easy it is to bypass the mashgiach if you want to, and you will see how worthless these certificates are. The main thing of importance is whether you can trust the owner or not and even then the kashrus is questionable. It is a sad fact but true.
36
Jun 14, 2009 at 10:27 AM moish Says:
I'm happy to see that no one paid attention to what this masorti imposter had to say [i don't know why i am!], his views on the matter are as important as that of a muslim cleric, anyone can see from his words "something is either kosher, in keeping with our standards, or not" how far removed from the torah and shulchan oruch they are, where there are numerous shittos, buts that's obvious as "their standards" are man made, and his words "kashrut will be based on laws and not the economic interest of the overseeing body" are laughable - what, he'll do it for free? Well i suppose he could with his so called "laws" it doesn't cost much to get the owner to proclaim that all meat is from an animal with its head chopped off!
37
Jun 14, 2009 at 11:05 AM Milhouse Says:
“ when i was in Israel we never saw one mashgiach in any restaurant. most restaurants had people without yarmulkahs running the store. this was very confusing. they had the best hashgachas but no mashgichim ”
There is no need for a mashgiach temidi.
38
Jun 14, 2009 at 11:04 AM Dave Says:
Go ahead folks - eat all you want. Don't worry about the hechsher. Just please make sure that the next time a Monsey scandal happens, you don't show up and write all about how every place needs to have a mashgiach tmidi.
It's no secret that a restaurant owner can fool a mashgiach. I would never trust a hechsher if I didn't trust the owner. The point of the hechsher is to add an extra layer of ne'emanus which is needed because sometimes, regardless of how ehrlich the proprietor is, he is not a Talmid Chochom and doesn't know all of the halachos. I've seen with my own eyes how good and trustworthy people made mistakes in their kitchens. A good mashgiach can point it out and avoid tzarus. A good mashgiach is also an insurance against people who would do things under duress that they would never consider under optimal circumstances.
To argue that there were Teudot 500 years ago is silly because there weren't restaurants then either. Other than that, great point.
Of course, not all hashgochos are reliable just as not all policemen are honest, and not all doctors know what they're doing. The trick in life is to weed out the incompetents from the competents and it's no different in hashgochos. To ditch the system altogether is foolish and like playing Russian Roulette. One guy may be honest and principled, whereas the next one won't be. You won't know the difference.
39
Jun 14, 2009 at 11:04 AM Milhouse Says:
“ The point is that you DON'T have what to rely on! Just because someone has a hechsher, it doesn't mean that it is kosher. These Rabbis take the money and don't care about the kashrus. ”
Where did you get the right to be motzi shem ra? You are not only a liar, but also mevazeh talmidei chachomim. Every rov hamachshir starts out with a chezkas kashrus, just as does every yid. And rov hametzuyin etzel hechsher mumchin hem. Chazokoh al talmid chochom she'eino motzi mitachas yodo dovor she'eno mesukon.
40
Jun 14, 2009 at 11:58 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Gimme a break, not getting a hechsher for "financial reasons"?
Newsflash! Rumor has it that a rocket scientist from Harvard with a triple Phd in macrosocioeconomics calculated after a 30 year controlled study, that a te'udat kashrut actually expands your customer base, resulting through some complicated equations in an enhanced net income.
That is if you're anyhow using exclusively kosher products.
Look at it as a minimal capital investment.
If he truly has nothing to hide, nothing to be afraid of, he has nothing to lose and lots to gain if he invests in a hechsher.
Any sane individual who'll trust a food establishment lacking a hechser, relying solely on the proprietors recognizance, is fooling no one but himself.
Gotta love that Frankforter guy with the "ideological" reason. Just proves that people will say anything to sound stupid.
Just curious, if someone would guarantee him to boost his Zagat rating (or whatever they got there), in exchange for paying some one to sit for 30 minutes and drink exchange for paying some one to sit for 30 minutes and drink coffee, do you think he'll check first if it's in tandem with his "priorities"? ”
how much does a hechser cost per year in israeli shekels for his type of restaurant?
41
Jun 14, 2009 at 11:48 AM Milhouse Says:
“ I'm happy to see that no one paid attention to what this masorti imposter had to say [i don't know why i am!], his views on the matter are as important as that of a muslim cleric, anyone can see from his words "something is either kosher, in keeping with our standards, or not" how far removed from the torah and shulchan oruch they are, where there are numerous shittos, buts that's obvious as "their standards" are man made, and his words "kashrut will be based on laws and not the economic interest of the overseeing body" are laughable - what, he'll do it for free? Well i suppose he could with his so called "laws" it doesn't cost much to get the owner to proclaim that all meat is from an animal with its head chopped off!
”
Well, he's right that klapei shmaya galya whether something is kosher or not. There's no such thing as half-kosher or quarter-kosher. But of course we are not shmaya.
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Jun 14, 2009 at 11:45 AM Milhouse Says:
“ no teudah means no nemanis. i'm sorry to say this but lets face it we also check out our friends houses before we go there if we have a question as to his standards. a guy who wants to open an eatery should do it with the excepted standards lets not forget when it comes to eidus even moshe and aharon are not good. we need to all be on our guard when it comes to these things. just because a guy knows how to keep kosher in his home doesn't mean he knows how to run a mass scale operation with a bunch of goyishe people in a kitchen when he's greeting people at the front. ”
What do you mean "no nemanis". And what do you mean "even moshe and aharon are not good"? You're making up a new religion here, and you have no right to do that. Be machmir for yourself all you like; it's good to be mehader bemitzvos, and to act lifnim mishuras hadin, but it is contrary to halacha to pretend that people don't have ne'emonus. Every yid has a chezkas kashrus, and if he tells you something is kosher then it is.
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Jun 14, 2009 at 11:42 AM Milhouse Says:
“ You are very naive if think the place is kosher because the owner goes to shul every day. ”
That is the halacha. You can be machmir for yourself, but you have NO RIGHT to make up dinim.
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Jun 14, 2009 at 11:40 AM Milhouse Says:
“ It IS what halocho says, at least if you are ashkenazi, this is the shito brought in the remo y.d. 119:1 that someone you don't know personally you may not buy off him but you may eat in his house, this agreed to by the taz the chochmas odom and other achronim, and see further in the darkei teshuva there that bec. of kilkul hadoros they were mesaken in the takonas ho'arotzos that one may not buy from any yid unless he has a hechsher from a rov. ”
You are deliberately misquoting and misrepresenting those sources. They do NOT say what you claim. All the Ramo says is that it's not enough to know the person is a Jew, you must know him to be observant. That's all. The same applies to the Taz and Chochmas Odom; they do not require a hechsher, but merely that the owner appears to be an observant Jew. As for the takono of the Vaad Arba Arotzos, how is that relevant to us?
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Jun 14, 2009 at 02:42 PM Anonymous Says:
There is a kosher deli in Baltimore that has no teudah but they have their loyal customers.
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Jun 14, 2009 at 02:40 PM Anonymous Says:
“ If somebody wearing a kippah esrugah told me his resturant didn't have a hechsher the only thing I would order is water in a piastic cup ”
No one is impressed with your sinas chinam. Go drink water from the Arabs.
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Jun 14, 2009 at 02:28 PM moish Says:
“ You are deliberately misquoting and misrepresenting those sources. They do NOT say what you claim. All the Ramo says is that it's not enough to know the person is a Jew, you must know him to be observant. That's all. The same applies to the Taz and Chochmas Odom; they do not require a hechsher, but merely that the owner appears to be an observant Jew. As for the takono of the Vaad Arba Arotzos, how is that relevant to us? ”
That is NOT all the remo says, the remo does not say you have to know he is observant, but that you have to know he is muchzak bekashrus, that is not the same as observant, and even if you argue it is, without a hechsher how do you know he is observant if you don't know him; furthermore see the oruch hashulchan that says explicitly that is clear that in our days sherobso hapritzus vehaminus you cannot buy from anyone you don't know without a hechsher.
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Jun 14, 2009 at 06:22 PM radivka Says:
25 years ago most heimiser people ate in dairy restaurants that were open on shabbos (farmfood,ratners,etc).hardly anyone had a problem with it. Even in the mountains,everone ate dairy at the coffee shop at the concord and grossingers.
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Jun 14, 2009 at 08:15 PM Milhouse Says:
“ That is NOT all the remo says, the remo does not say you have to know he is observant, but that you have to know he is muchzak bekashrus, that is not the same as observant, and even if you argue it is, without a hechsher how do you know he is observant if you don't know him; furthermore see the oruch hashulchan that says explicitly that is clear that in our days sherobso hapritzus vehaminus you cannot buy from anyone you don't know without a hechsher.
”
1. "Muchzak bekashrus" certainly does mean observant. What else could it possibly mean? If you don't know him then you can ask those who do. If you can't find anyone who does, then the Ramo would say you can't buy from him; when did I ever suggest otherwise?
2. No, that is NOT what the Oruch Hashulchon says. Again, you deliberately misquote your sources. On the contrary, the OhSh (as quoted in Darchei Teshuvah 6) says that "muchzak bekashrus" doesn't mean he's some sort of tzadik, but merely that he is seen to behave as an observant Jew, and gives a checklist of things to watch for: If he wears talles and tfillin, davens three times a day, washes for bread, and runs a kosher household, then he is a muchzak bekashrus *even if he is suspected of laxity in some particular area*. In other words, Finkel from Monsey was 100% muchzak bekashrus even according to the OhSh, and everyone who knew of his reputation was entitled to trust him; and even after the scandal, if someone else should arise with the same qualifications we have every right to trust him too.
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Jun 14, 2009 at 08:38 PM Anonymous Says:
What these people do not understand is that the restaurant owners can easily get greedy with no system of checks and balances. If there is no mashgiach tmidi at a meat restaurant a religous jewe should not eat there. Religous restaurant owners can get greedy too. Recall teh Hatzlacha incident in Monsey in which thousands ate non-kosher Purdue chicken because of one persons greed. These Israeli owners adsmitted themselves that it is about the money. While it is understandable to get frustrated with underperforming employees, I personally beleive that there must be a system in place to combat the natural instincts of business owners.
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Jun 14, 2009 at 09:29 PM Milhouse Says:
“ What these people do not understand is that the restaurant owners can easily get greedy with no system of checks and balances. If there is no mashgiach tmidi at a meat restaurant a religous jewe should not eat there. Religous restaurant owners can get greedy too. Recall teh Hatzlacha incident in Monsey in which thousands ate non-kosher Purdue chicken because of one persons greed. These Israeli owners adsmitted themselves that it is about the money. While it is understandable to get frustrated with underperforming employees, I personally beleive that there must be a system in place to combat the natural instincts of business owners. ”
You're welcome to your opinion, so long as you understand that you are adding your own private precautions on top of what the halacha requires, and that nobody else is obligated to follow your advice.
Of course religious restaurant owners can get greedy; so can rabbonim, mashgichim, mikveh ladies, dayonim, policemen, judges, and anyone else. Without grounds, though, what entitles you to suspect a fellow yid of wrongdoing? Mutual trust is also a Torah value, which we are in serious danger of losing, if we constantly treat each other with suspicion. The Torah says if one person tells you something is kosher, you believe him. The poskim talk about what kind of person he has to be, but Finkel from Monsey would pass even the strictest test with flying colours; to suspect him of being the cheat that he was would have been against the Torah. It's hard to say that it would have been positively forbidden to distrust him, because at the end of the day there's no obligation to eat anything; not eating is always an option. But to have cast aspersions on his ne'emonus just because he had no mashgiach temidi would definitely have been forbidden.
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Jun 15, 2009 at 12:06 AM moish Says:
“ 1. "Muchzak bekashrus" certainly does mean observant. What else could it possibly mean? If you don't know him then you can ask those who do. If you can't find anyone who does, then the Ramo would say you can't buy from him; when did I ever suggest otherwise?
2. No, that is NOT what the Oruch Hashulchon says. Again, you deliberately misquote your sources. On the contrary, the OhSh (as quoted in Darchei Teshuvah 6) says that "muchzak bekashrus" doesn't mean he's some sort of tzadik, but merely that he is seen to behave as an observant Jew, and gives a checklist of things to watch for: If he wears talles and tfillin, davens three times a day, washes for bread, and runs a kosher household, then he is a muchzak bekashrus *even if he is suspected of laxity in some particular area*. In other words, Finkel from Monsey was 100% muchzak bekashrus even according to the OhSh, and everyone who knew of his reputation was entitled to trust him; and even after the scandal, if someone else should arise with the same qualifications we have every right to trust him too. ”
See oruch hashulchan inside and you will see he writes exactly what i quoted.
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Jun 15, 2009 at 09:01 AM Anonymous Says:
“ I 100% agree with this man... in principle. The system is not working well for everyone. However, having no hechsher is not the answer either. I'd like to see someone come up with a BETTER plan.... not NO plan. ”
For all the good reasons NOT to like what the Masorti have to say, they DO have a plan, and it's a good one...
Kashrus supervision as a business is an inherently flawed proposition. If it's ever going to work, the financial incentives need to be removed...running Kashrus supervision as a community endeavor, supported directly by the communal funds and not by business owners, is the only sensible way to go.
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Jun 15, 2009 at 05:56 PM Anonymous Says:
“ One witness is trusted for isurim ”
Not when the witness owns the business
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Jun 16, 2009 at 12:47 AM Milhouse Says:
“ See oruch hashulchan inside and you will see he writes exactly what i quoted.
”
OK, I've looked at the OhSh inside, and you're still misrepresenting him. He does NOT require a hechsher, so long as the seller appears to be observant. In other words, he says exactly the same thing as the Ramo. And he describes explicitly what he means by observant, as above; basically someone who acts like Finkel.
Of course if you don't know who he is, then you have no basis for trusting him; the Mechaber would say that it doesn't matter, so long as you know he's a Jew and you don't have reason NOT to trust his kashrus, but the Ramo says you need some positive reason to believe him. And that's what a hechsher of the sort Finkel had can provide; it's not a hechsher on the product but on the person, testifying that he appears to live an Orthodox lifestyle. Once you know that, you can trust him, even according to the strict opinion.
The modern sort of hechsher, which is on the product rather than the person, which assumes the person is likely to cheat if he's not watched, and relies on mashgichim to catch him, has no basis in traditional Judaism. It's a modern invention. It has its advantages, since it allows us to buy from goyim and non-observant yidden, but it is wrong to suggest that it's halachically necessary. And it remains the case that a restaurant run by a reputable person needs no hechsher at all. For instance, I've never heard of any normal person who wouldn't eat at Mrs Rubashkin's restaurant on 13th Ave in Borough Park, just because it has no hechsher. She is the hechsher, and she's a far more trustworthy hechsher than almost any rov.
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Jun 15, 2009 at 11:45 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Not when the witness owns the business ”
And your source for this is what?