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New York - Choose Life, Not Kiddush Clubs |
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The extent of the problem among Orthodox versus less observant Jews is open to debate but many professionals have expressed concern that the Orthodox lifestyle may provide opportunities for alcohol abuse and that religious practices may provide justification for and mask excessive alcohol ingestion. The most disturbing fact is that young Jews seem to be more vulnerable to alcohol abuse than their parents. This is reason enough for Jewish parents to set a good example and avoid behaviors that promote inappropriate alcohol consumption.
As pediatricians, we are troubled by the prevalence of Kiddush Clubs in Orthodox shuls and the availability of hard liquor for the congregation at Kiddush after services. The habit of having a drink during prayer services arose in the small shtetls of Europe before the full impact and adverse effects of alcohol on health were appreciated. We think that the practice of drinking hard alcohol on shul premises promotes and sanctions behavior that can have deleterious effects on younger members of the community.
Regular meetings of Kiddush Clubs provide an implicit sanction for a form of covert drinking. It provides a veneer of respectability and exclusivity, suggesting a “coolness” about those individuals who are part of this private, select drinking group. These adults become the enablers of youth drinking. This is well described by Rabbi Dr. Tzvi Hersh Weinreb, executive vice president of the Orthodox Union: “It’s not only drinking, it’s idealized drinking which is a very, very bad message for the kids.”
What validation and sanction for this behavior does a child or adolescent need more than “I saw it in shul?” The Orthodox Union voted in 2005 to recommend that affiliated synagogues end Kiddush Clubs. Although many congregations objected that this was an excessive response to isolated incidents of alcohol abuse, other enlightened shuls have curtailed their Kiddush Clubs. Other denominations, such as Reform temples, have never established this practice.
There are numerous publications in the pediatric literature detailing the adverse effects of alcohol exposure on susceptible children and adolescents. An extreme example of the physical danger of alcohol is illustrated in a recent article in Newsweek by Lisa Miller that describes a young “orthodox” man who became so drunk on Shabbat that he drove his car into the oncoming traffic lane, rolled his car and crashed into a cottage. It is our contention that there are vulnerable children in our communities whose latent propensity to excessive alcohol intake may be triggered by Kiddush Clubs and the drinking of hard liquor on shul premises.
Pediatricians have advocated for bans on smoking and fought against advertising campaigns directed at adolescents. These efforts have achieved a substantial reduction in smoking among young people. They have convinced pediatricians that they can change unhealthy practices and combat long-standing, condoned behaviors. As pediatricians and members of Orthodox shuls, we believe that banning Kiddush Clubs would help protect vulnerable children and adolescents.
In discussing this matter with local synagogue leadership, the common justification for continuing the practice of drinking in shul is that there have been no adverse consequences in their particular locale. In addition, they feel that it is a custom that they cannot easily challenge because it is too deeply rooted and the participants are frequently senior and otherwise respected congregants. Drinking hard liquor in shul is a prevalent practice that has ardent followers but serves no constructive purpose in Jewish communal life.
We do not want to address issues regarding the impact of Kiddush Clubs on decorum in synagogues, the inappropriateness of interrupting services, or disrespect for prayer engendered by participation in Kiddush Clubs. We do not even touch upon the potential liability that synagogues may face through property or personal damages to congregants or others that might occur following alcohol ingestion on shul premises.
A laissez-faire attitude towards Kiddush Clubs in general, an inexplicable timidity in confronting club members, and a misguided attempt to minimize the problem by asserting the involvement of only a small group of outliers are all unacceptable strategies. They evade parental and congregational responsibility to ensure that children are not exposed to unhealthy habits especially within the confines of the synagogue. Kiddush Clubs are a phenomenon unique to Orthodox Jews. Rather than choosing to hide behind the banner of tradition, we encourage confronting this potential health problem in a straightforward manner.
In an effort to foster the protection of the younger members of the Jewish community from the potential development of abnormal drinking behavior as adults, we strongly urge that the drinking of alcohol (other than Kiddush wine) be prohibited on the synagogue premises. We call upon like-minded medical professionals and other individuals to assert their influence in their communities to once and for all put an end to social practices that foster abnormal consumption of alcohol in shuls.
Philip Lanzkowsky and Howard Trachtman are professors of pediatrics at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine of Yeshiva University, and Irving Zoltan is assistant clinical professor of pediatrics at Einstein.
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Read Comments (88) — Post Yours »
1
Jun 16, 2009 at 02:37 PM Anonymous Says:
Kol Hakovod for coming out against Kiddush Clubs. Now we have to work on banning hard liquer at weddings, where Bochrim do not know limits & then drive home.
2
Jun 16, 2009 at 02:36 PM Anonymous Says:
I agree 100 percent , a former alcohoic
3
Jun 16, 2009 at 02:31 PM Ad D'Lo Yada Says:
If this makes one bit of a difference in yeshivos it will be a good thing.
There are teens drinking away their pain on Purim, and on Simchas Torah. Any kid who likes the feeling of getting drunk and vomitting so much that they are not embarrassed about what they said or how they looked, is probably a kid in terrible pain. Those are the kids that will do it again... on Friday nights and Shabbos afternoon.
Some of us spoke up about this years ago.
We were told to get a life.
Now those kids are married.
When things get rough, they drink.
Some get abusive when they drink.
Some just go into a deep stupor.
Any issue that they can't handle is pushed aside.... until they drink it away.
They have no skills for conflict resolution: internal OR external
How do you quantify the loneliness of their wives?
How do you treat a generation of children who are growing up with lonely, sad, mothers?
I guess you start more organizations for kids at risk.
4
Jun 16, 2009 at 03:26 PM outoftowner Says:
“ Kol Hakovod for coming out against Kiddush Clubs. Now we have to work on banning hard liquer at weddings, where Bochrim do not know limits & then drive home. ”
100% correct. One caterer in our town no longer offers an "open bar" option because of the under-age drinkers. His ratiomale: All I need is one serious car accident and the liability will revert to the caterer.
5
Jun 16, 2009 at 03:37 PM just wondering Says:
how could any thinking person argue with this? any argument that would be put forth opposing this article is either in denial or...?
6
Jun 16, 2009 at 03:29 PM Drinking IS a problem... Says:
It is sad, yet true. Those that walk the streets of Yerushalayim on late Friday night, are appalled to see groups of American yeshiva bochurim walking around stoned. They come from the best yeshivas, and from good homes in the States.
Do their parents know? Do they care to know? Are they kidding themselves? Do they think that it's worth having that yeshiva's name of his resume, assuming that it will help for the shidduch - but what about the resultant problems after the marriage (especially if the couple is "lucky" enought to go back to E"Y to "learn" (read that honeymoon).
Wake up people - it's your kids and your "doros" that you are ruining.
7
Jun 16, 2009 at 03:21 PM Dave L Says:
At my shul, we don’t have any alcohol at Kiddush (only grape juice), precisely for this reason. Needless to say, we have no Kiddush club.
8
Jun 16, 2009 at 03:20 PM Anonymous Says:
The issue of liquor in the jewish community is going to exist for a long time to come. I suggest instead of outright banning kiddush clubs try finding appropriate venues in which men can get together and drink and enjoy themselves. Nobodyy likes being shouted at and By saying comments such as #1,3 your only adding to consumption of liquor in our community.
9
Jun 16, 2009 at 03:16 PM Ex-Addic Says:
I too am a former Alcoholic and agree with this article! in fact before I became a Ba'al Tsuvah 18 years ago I never drank liquor it was only after I became frum I started to drink because that's what they did in shul 10 years later I was an Alcoholic and had to be admitted to a detox for 6 days one of which was Shabbos. It was a horrible experience and thank Ha-Shem with the support of family and friends I kicked the addiction.
10
Jun 16, 2009 at 03:15 PM Rebitzen Says:
It's time for the BP Rebbes to issue a ban on kiddush clubs in their shuls. That would diminish the problem somewhat, but we all know that it would never happen. Guess why?
11
Jun 16, 2009 at 03:01 PM Benzion Twerski Says:
As we have known for many years now, alcoholism and other addictions (drugs, gambling, food, internet, ta'avos, etc.) are equal opportunity. They strike all ages, both genders, all races, creeds, and religious groups. Denial of this is childish, inaccurate, and downright dangerous. Purim always has its unfortunate casualties, and the public warnings by Hatzoloh, MASK, and others has had just a little effect. Simchas Torah has always perplexed me, as alcohol intoxication is antithetical to Torah values, and certainly to the simchas halev that is befitting for a Torahdige zman simchosaynu.
Working in this field for many years, I have observed various trends, where certain substances were the ones that ended up in our offices for evaluation and treatment. There was a time when street drugs were the common ones in our treatment settings, and there have been waves of pills, ecstasy, marijuana, and alcohol. We are presently observing an increase in alcohol abuse, and I fail to identify anything concrete to explain why this and why now.
I concur with the many calls that were made by various professionals and organizations over the years to eliminate "Kiddush Clubs" completely. Their purpose has nothing whatsoever to do with kedushas Shabbos, and referring to events of imbibing alcohol, whether focused on volume or the quality/price of the liquor, is a detraction from Shabbos. It is about bodily pleasures, not oneg Shabbos. With nothing to say for the benefits of Kiddush Clubs, we only need to recognize a minimum of the destructiveness that is involved to know that these should be banned everywhere. Kal vachomer with any idea of the extents of damage that these have to: Health, shmiras Shabbos ke'hilchoso, terrible chinuch models for children who observe these events or are even aware of them, loneliness of the wives and family, the compromises to tefilloh that are unjustified, etc.
If we adults display such behavior, how can we expect our children to avoid drugs? We say one thing but do another. Sorry, but this hypocrisy is easy to see on others. I join all the others who seek to ban Kiddush Clubs.
12
Jun 16, 2009 at 03:00 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Kol Hakovod for coming out against Kiddush Clubs. Now we have to work on banning hard liquer at weddings, where Bochrim do not know limits & then drive home. ”
I have Baruch Hashem been zocheh to marry off two children. At the weddings, I successfully replaced wine and schnapps almost exclusively with COLD sparklling grape juice, soda, and water. To acccommodate certain Minhagim, I had two liters of hard liquor, and two wine, which were watched very carefully. Most remained at end of Simcha. (this is for almost seven hundred guests total at the two affairs.) I received many compliments, only one complaint! Many thought it was a new kind of champagne, and liked it. I went home with a clear conscience, knowing that I did all I could to send everyone home happy and sober. It was new to one of the caterers, but he has recommended it to others.
13
Jun 16, 2009 at 02:50 PM Moishe Says:
I find the statement "It is estimated that approximately 10 percent of Jewish men have problems with excessive alcohol intake" simply preposterous. One must consider that there are a large number of Jewish men that don't drink at all except for the obligitory wine for kiddush. There is a problem, but I don't think that anywhere close to 10% of the men that I know who have a couple of shots at a Shabbos morning kiddush have a problem. I'd guess that the number with an alcohol problem is much closer to 1% - 2%. We do have a recent problem in our community, but such exaggeration serves no purpose. A self enforced limit of 2 shots per person at shule Kiddushes and strict banning of so called "Kiddush clubs" is a realistic solution to any abuse that exists.
15
Jun 16, 2009 at 04:03 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Kol Hakovod for coming out against Kiddush Clubs. Now we have to work on banning hard liquer at weddings, where Bochrim do not know limits & then drive home. ”
sweet dreams
16
Jun 16, 2009 at 04:02 PM Anonymous Says:
“ As we have known for many years now, alcoholism and other addictions (drugs, gambling, food, internet, ta'avos, etc.) are equal opportunity. They strike all ages, both genders, all races, creeds, and religious groups. Denial of this is childish, inaccurate, and downright dangerous. Purim always has its unfortunate casualties, and the public warnings by Hatzoloh, MASK, and others has had just a little effect. Simchas Torah has always perplexed me, as alcohol intoxication is antithetical to Torah values, and certainly to the simchas halev that is befitting for a Torahdige zman simchosaynu.
Working in this field for many years, I have observed various trends, where certain substances were the ones that ended up in our offices for evaluation and treatment. There was a time when street drugs were the common ones in our treatment settings, and there have been waves of pills, ecstasy, marijuana, and alcohol. We are presently observing an increase in alcohol abuse, and I fail to identify anything concrete to explain why this and why now.
I concur with the many calls that were made by various professionals and organizations over the years to eliminate "Kiddush Clubs" completely. Their purpose has nothing whatsoever to do with kedushas Shabbos, and referring to events of imbibing alcohol, whether focused on volume or the quality/price of the liquor, is a detraction from Shabbos. It is about bodily pleasures, not oneg Shabbos. With nothing to say for the benefits of Kiddush Clubs, we only need to recognize a minimum of the destructiveness that is involved to know that these should be banned everywhere. Kal vachomer with any idea of the extents of damage that these have to: Health, shmiras Shabbos ke'hilchoso, terrible chinuch models for children who observe these events or are even aware of them, loneliness of the wives and family, the compromises to tefilloh that are unjustified, etc.
If we adults display such behavior, how can we expect our children to avoid drugs? We say one thing but do another. Sorry, but this hypocrisy is easy to see on others. I join all the others who seek to ban Kiddush Clubs. ”
"It is about bodily pleasures, not oneg Shabbos". Very strong words...Tell my kids that their potato sticks and Twirps are not Oneg Shabbos based on your logic....Sorry the key is to teach moderation and definitely not to villainize it as that enhances the attraction.. Remember too many carrots can wreak havoc on the body too.
17
Jun 16, 2009 at 03:47 PM Anonymous Says:
I am not denying that there may be a problem. I am not familiar and have not seen it. But I must point out that drinking at Simchas or Purim and Simchas Torah, regardless of how unseemly it may be, is not a manifestation of a drinking problem. It's not any different than the guys taking advantage of the Sushy Bar......regardless of how unseemly THAT is
18
Jun 16, 2009 at 03:03 PM Raphael Kaufman Says:
Drinking l'chaim on appropriate occasions is right and proper. Alchohol has always been a part of Jewish celebration and ritual. Responsible drinking must be included along with everything else that one must learn and, as is the case in many things, prohibition makes the act more inviting. Of course there will always be people with addictive personalities who abuse alchohol. This does not mean that those who drink responsibly should be deprived of what, in Jewish tradition, is a joyous and enjoyable tradition. Demonizing alchohol is chukas hagoyim.
Hi, Sherree!
19
Jun 16, 2009 at 02:53 PM Anonymous Says:
nothing to do with kiddush clubs. drinking in general at kiddushim after davening glorifies alcohol consumption and kids think its cool and start way too young. This will destroy families of the young generation
20
Jun 16, 2009 at 04:23 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I find the statement "It is estimated that approximately 10 percent of Jewish men have problems with excessive alcohol intake" simply preposterous. One must consider that there are a large number of Jewish men that don't drink at all except for the obligitory wine for kiddush. There is a problem, but I don't think that anywhere close to 10% of the men that I know who have a couple of shots at a Shabbos morning kiddush have a problem. I'd guess that the number with an alcohol problem is much closer to 1% - 2%. We do have a recent problem in our community, but such exaggeration serves no purpose. A self enforced limit of 2 shots per person at shule Kiddushes and strict banning of so called "Kiddush clubs" is a realistic solution to any abuse that exists. ”
Those in a field see everyone has having that problem. Talk to oncologists and CH"V everyone has a high risk for cancer. Talk to the psychologist and all kids are to be treated as potential kids at risk. I think there is too much text book induced thought here and little Torah...I don't care which Rabbi you are... the approach being taken to all our social issues be they real or imagined, and I believe quite a bit is imagined, is being dealt with in a very secular nature . And that includes that our perspective of what is acceptable or unacceptable behaviour is being defined by the masses although the Torah may have a different attitude than the masses.....I am sorry to leave that thought off here butI'm sure each reader can define the the issues that I may be refering to
21
Jun 16, 2009 at 04:21 PM michali Says:
By believing that alcohol is the problem for excessive drinking in our community, we are guilty of putting our heads in the sand. The problem is not alcohol, it is the home.
I would suggest having sit down kiddushes rather than kiddushes where people are standing and everyone has access to alcohol. At my shul, every Shabbos we have a sit down kiddush. Do we have alcohol? Yes. However, it is not placed on a table for everyone to take. The bottles are placed at the Rabbi's table where he has control of the liquor, and he is very careful not to give to underage boys.
22
Jun 16, 2009 at 04:13 PM Anonymous Says:
kiddush clubs set a bad example because they show a tremendous disrespect for davening; it makes me weep inside to see half the men miss the haftora for schnapps. that being said, i don't think drinking should necessarily be banned after davening is over. true, bad drinking behavior can cause the kids to be alcoholic, but so can banning alcohol altogether! all the foremost research shows, time and again, that the best way to keep kids from becoming alcoholic is to model healthy drinking behavior. if they see you drink a little, but that you stop after a certain amount, then they will learn that alcohol is just fine when used properly.
23
Jun 16, 2009 at 04:46 PM Anonymous Says:
I know of a wife who complained to her Morah D'Asrah (Rov) I send my husband to shul Shabbos morning sober, and you send him back home 2 1/2 hours later drunk.
Like everything else, there will be an outcry from liberal minded folks that it's okay, etc. If, however, the Rabbinate at large take a strong stand, in very short order the bringing out of liquor at Kaddashim will become yesterday's news, and grape juice will be as commonplace as pototo kugel.
This should be banned from the gittgo! Do we need a vehicular homicide to wake us up?
24
Jun 16, 2009 at 04:27 PM David Says:
Oh, just brilliant. Here's a better idea-- why not ban kugel in shul? After all-- there are more fat Jews than alcoholic Jews.
25
Jun 16, 2009 at 04:52 PM mewhoze Says:
anything in moderation SHOULD be fine. but who determines what moderation is?
the same holds true for food. why do we have so much obesity amongst the Jews? coz its always a mitzva to eat this and taht and other than the fasting days, all holidays promote different foods.
Moderation is the key.
However, if you cannot control yourself whether with alcohol or with cake, stay away from them both. its not a mitzva to make yourself sick.
26
Jun 16, 2009 at 04:58 PM Cadd9 Says:
I really don't think wine should be included in this discussion. Wine drinkers are rarely alchoholics. Wine is praised in the Torah (Birchas Yehudah) ,Tenach (Mesamach Elokim V'odom). The Mishna and Gemara are full of different halachos which show that wine was used in great quantiies. (I can think of a Gemara in Kesubos and a Mishna in Shviis) Maybe it just that I'm a wine drinker, but I can't see anything wrong with two glasses on Shabbos or Yomtov.
27
Jun 16, 2009 at 05:34 PM Anonymous Says:
I wonder who they were writing for in the "Jewish" Week. That papers constituency does not even go to shul. Do they perhaps have kiddush club out of shul? How do they walk out of leining then?
28
Jun 16, 2009 at 05:35 PM L'Chaim ! Says:
Rabosai,
Everyone can enjoy one or two L'Chaims on Shabbos with no problem. Let's not become crazy about this and become crying little girls going Oy vey! Oy vey! Oy vey! Come on now. Let's be men !!! L'Chaim !
29
Jun 16, 2009 at 06:49 PM Dr. L. Zacharowicz Says:
These 3 distinguished physicians should be applauded for their courage in bringing this issue to public attention. Kiddush clubs exist in all sectors of Judaism (hence the wisdom of publishing this in The Jewish Week), but seem to predominate in the orthodox.
As a neurologist, I have written and spoken about the dangers of alcoholism, and its effects on the brain, including as an invited speaker at lat year's national convention of Agudath Israel, yet I find that many shuls and yeshivas are inexplicably reluctant to limit alcohol use on their premises.
After decades of experience, I can say that many alcoholics got their start from binging at parties--including at Purim and Simchas Torah celebrations.
A video / DVD is in its final stages of development, and will feature Rabbi Abraham Twerski and others, on the dangers of alcoholism (thanks go to Jimmy Mond for spearheading this).
Will yeshivas show the video, and educate our children--or deny there is a serious, growing problem? Will we educate our children, or continue to model alcohol use and then express surprise when our youth become problem drinkers and many become alcoholics?
30
Jun 16, 2009 at 06:27 PM Anonymous Says:
The key is getting our kids to drink responsibly, not banning alcohol entirely.
By the way, see Tshuvas Knesses HaGedolah siman 1, which says that grape juice with preservatives (such as ours) is shehakol and hence passul for kiddush.
31
Jun 16, 2009 at 07:24 PM Ad D'Lo Yada Says:
“ "It is about bodily pleasures, not oneg Shabbos". Very strong words...Tell my kids that their potato sticks and Twirps are not Oneg Shabbos based on your logic....Sorry the key is to teach moderation and definitely not to villainize it as that enhances the attraction.. Remember too many carrots can wreak havoc on the body too. ”
the difference between giving potato sticks and Twirps to kids,
and
serving alcohol freely in an unsupervised venue that is supposed to be holy?
hmmmm?
I can't think of any differences.
You are correct, I guess.
or
You are still a child.
32
Jun 16, 2009 at 07:19 PM Ad D'Lo Yada Says:
Both a Neurologist and a Psychologist from within our frum communities posted here.
Just because you don't want to know there is a problem doesn't make it so.
There is.
The causes of the problem are deep.
"Drinking responsibly" is easier said than done in a community where we are NOT teaching personal responsibility!
Our daughters and sons are often being taught NOT to think for themselves.
Their mentalities are those of a community who functions as a group.
We vote as a group.
We judge as a group.
Sadly, that is why the problem needs to be addressed collectively.
For better or worse....
33
Jun 16, 2009 at 05:13 PM Ben Kochba Says:
Whatever happened to personal responsibility?
Hey Kids you wanna smoke do drugs drink and hang out with girls? fine!!! There are consequences to those actions, and live with it.
Those "kids" that abuse are just weak. Let them go off the Derech. Instead of banning alcohol from those that can control themselves how about we ban those kids that act like animals (abusing drugs and alcohol) and kick them out of our shuls and school and let them go to public school and live on the street, My Judaism doesn’t need them. I contend these creatures (creatures because they are animals and can’t control themselves) have no place among us. now you will yell "well some of those problems are caused by Fill in the blank abuse neglect etc... That then is a seperate problem. Here we are talking about a "normal person" that has a drink.
Ban Ban Ban is that the only original thought you have. You think drinking is some new thing>? Drugs are new? Hanging out with girls is new?
People have been doing it all for thousands of years and our Torah gives us the guidelines. Today young adults are going off the derech, so what if they can’t figure it out we don’t need. them.
A big FAN of the Kiddush Clubs... pass the bourbon please.
34
Jun 16, 2009 at 08:14 PM Milhouse Says:
This is ridiculous. Because a small number of people have a problem, everybody must be deprived of a healthful and innocent pleasure? Alcohol is a gift Hashem gave us; used moderately, it's טוב לשמים וטוב לבריאות (pun intended). It is part of oneg shabbos, and it is the לגימה שמקרבת את הלבבות. How is it reasonable to take this away from everybody, just because there might be one or two people who don't know when to stop? What are we, Protestants?!
Nor do I see what the objection is to kiddush clubs. So a few friends sneak out of shul during the more boring bits between shachris and musaf. What's the big avla? Since when is one required to be there from ma tovu till adon olam? Is there an obligation to hear the haftoroh, or all the misheberachs, yekum purkons, and keil moleis? Not everybody has the attention span for it, and it's far better to step outside than to talk in shul. And friends saying lechayim together is a far older and more venerable minhag yisroel than the rabbi giving a speech before musaf, a custom that we took from the Reform, who took it from the Lutherans. (Though I know of one shul where the rabbi's condition for allowing the kiddush club is that they must be back by the time he starts speaking. And he speaks for at least 40 minutes, so some people need the fortification beforehand!) So long as everybody knows his limit and stops there, a kiddush club is no worse than any other social activity.
35
Jun 16, 2009 at 10:10 PM Benzion Twerski Says:
I guess I am not the only one whose comment is being misunderstood. I am taking the liberty to respond to these misunderstandings.
1 – I do not advocate the prohibition of alcohol. It won’t work, it didn’t work, and it is unnecessary. The banning and elimination that is warranted is a fabricated “minhag” of imbibing for a purpose that is unrelated to any davar shebikedusha.
2 – One can teach moderation in alcohol use by example. Kiddush Clubs undo whatever other efforts are made to teach moderation. And we should not forget that there are some people that are unable to maintain moderation. For these individuals, alcohol is completely proscribed.
3 – When alcohol is used for its anesthetic state (fortification), as is the Kiddush Club thing, this does not even bear overlap with oneg Shabbos. If a youngster is engaged in similar use of any form of nosh (which is not what generally happens), the same comment would apply. How would you treat a weekly Shabbos afternoon party that your child had with friends who would all stuff themselves with the latest junk food till the point of throwing up? Would you dismiss it as “oneg Shabbos” or would you point to the absence of true oneg?
4 – Alcohol is not being demonized. The patterns of using it in manners that are more likely chukkas hagoyim are being demonized.
5 – The approach being taken to social issues is the idea here, though the ones authoring this article are professionals, not Rabbonim. The issue is that there is a social pattern that is destructive, and it has virtually no redeeming value in Yiddishkeit. I am also glad that professionals spoke up and got legislation passed to mandate wearing helmets when bike riding.
6 – As for including wine in the discussion, I will voice my opinion that it is as relevant as any other form of alcoholic beverage. Statistically, it is probably less involved in problem drinkers (I do not have research to support that). When one ingests any food or drink, it is digested in the stomach and intestines. Alcohol is not digested at all. It is passed into the circulatory system where other organs manage the breakdown of the alcohol, especially the liver. Meanwhile, the alcohol may be packaged in liquor, wine, or beer, and the same process occurs. The vehicle, except for the alcohol will be digested. The bottom line is that wine has abuse potential just as any other alcoholic beverage.
7 – The video described by Dr. Zacharowicz in comment #29 is quite good and powerful. It is awaiting the incorporation of some tweaking and inclusion of feedback from other professionals in the health and chinuch fields. It is the result of concerned individuals who have worked together with some experts in the chinuch field.
8 – I read comment #33 when I was already tired. You are either sarcastic, or you need a good cold shower. The Torah did give us guidelines. Check out the Rambam – drinking to intoxication is inconsistent with avodas Hashem. As for the kids at risk, you may only care a little when one of them is yours CH”V. Who needs them???
9 – Milhouse: Enjoy your moderation use of alcohol. No one seeks to deprive you of it. Kiddush Clubs are not held to drink in moderation. They are founded on the abuse part of drinking. Banning is only sensible. If you find these parts of davening “boring”, I have pity on what your children learn from your model about tefilloh. Yes, the expectation is that we all attend the tefilloh from Ma Tovu until after Adon Olam. As for your attitude about the rabbi’s drosho, review how our Chachomim in Shas expected Shabbos and Yom Tov to be conducted. Most of the time was invested in droshos and learning Torah, not staying home and reading the Jewish media publications or socializing with friends. At least we found a way to preserve some divrei Torah. Somehow, the afternoon nap worked its way into our culture. I am aware that the Shulchan Aruch recommends this nap. However, it seems the Chachomim do not mention it. When did that enter our communities, and what is the source of the practice? Has anyone done this research?
36
Jun 16, 2009 at 09:08 PM esther Says:
“ Rabosai,
Everyone can enjoy one or two L'Chaims on Shabbos with no problem. Let's not become crazy about this and become crying little girls going Oy vey! Oy vey! Oy vey! Come on now. Let's be men !!! L'Chaim ! ”
your attitude is reprehensible and part of what leads boys and men to drink.as for comparing this problem to overindulgence in sushi or kugle, that's just DUMB.
37
Jun 16, 2009 at 09:06 PM Anonymous Says:
“ This is ridiculous. Because a small number of people have a problem, everybody must be deprived of a healthful and innocent pleasure? Alcohol is a gift Hashem gave us; used moderately, it's טוב לשמים וטוב לבריאות (pun intended). It is part of oneg shabbos, and it is the לגימה שמקרבת את הלבבות. How is it reasonable to take this away from everybody, just because there might be one or two people who don't know when to stop? What are we, Protestants?!
Nor do I see what the objection is to kiddush clubs. So a few friends sneak out of shul during the more boring bits between shachris and musaf. What's the big avla? Since when is one required to be there from ma tovu till adon olam? Is there an obligation to hear the haftoroh, or all the misheberachs, yekum purkons, and keil moleis? Not everybody has the attention span for it, and it's far better to step outside than to talk in shul. And friends saying lechayim together is a far older and more venerable minhag yisroel than the rabbi giving a speech before musaf, a custom that we took from the Reform, who took it from the Lutherans. (Though I know of one shul where the rabbi's condition for allowing the kiddush club is that they must be back by the time he starts speaking. And he speaks for at least 40 minutes, so some people need the fortification beforehand!) So long as everybody knows his limit and stops there, a kiddush club is no worse than any other social activity.
”
Even if there's no halacha against stepping out of shul for a drink, it would definately fall under naval birshus hatorah. The proper thing to do is to sit in shul like a mature adult. Or go to a shul with a faster davening so that you don't end up bored.
Either way, is that what you want your children to think of davening, that it's boring? Today you skip haftorah, tomorrow, they skip Torah and chazaras hashatz; after, who knows if anyone still goes to shul at all...
Anyways, after a reviis of alcohol (which is not all that much) it is ASSUR to daven, and if you're a Kohen it is ASSUR to duchan! So there really is a halachik issue going on here, even if it's not leaving davening per se.
Save the drinking for after davening. Then, it is perfectly acceptable. Enjoy your drink, don't have too much, and teach your kids healthy and responsible drinking behavior. Maybe even let them have a few sips, if they're old enough.
38
Jun 17, 2009 at 12:04 AM Anonymous Says:
I, and my sons, enjoy fine liquors - responsibly and never during davening. Some kids are, in fact, responsible enough to handle the situation. One of my sons turned down an offer of liquor on Purim from someone because it wasn't to his liking. When he told the offerer his preference, that liquor was out of the host's price range. An alcoholic doesn't drink fine liquors - they drink cheap stuff for the "high" - not for the pleasure. My sons also can explain the chemistry behind the distillation process. There is no reason to keep all kids away from the stuff - many of them are mature enough and responsible enough to handle it properly.
39
Jun 16, 2009 at 11:40 PM Anonymous Says:
“ "It is about bodily pleasures, not oneg Shabbos". Very strong words...Tell my kids that their potato sticks and Twirps are not Oneg Shabbos based on your logic....Sorry the key is to teach moderation and definitely not to villainize it as that enhances the attraction.. Remember too many carrots can wreak havoc on the body too. ”
yes, we are americans, we do well with moderation. You would be surprised how many jews can not keep their mouths shut long enough and cant wait to get weight loss surgery fast enough. - lap bands, stomach bypass? denial and rationalizations are strong.
40
Jun 16, 2009 at 11:22 PM Milhouse Says:
“ I guess I am not the only one whose comment is being misunderstood. I am taking the liberty to respond to these misunderstandings.
1 – I do not advocate the prohibition of alcohol. It won’t work, it didn’t work, and it is unnecessary. The banning and elimination that is warranted is a fabricated “minhag” of imbibing for a purpose that is unrelated to any davar shebikedusha.
2 – One can teach moderation in alcohol use by example. Kiddush Clubs undo whatever other efforts are made to teach moderation. And we should not forget that there are some people that are unable to maintain moderation. For these individuals, alcohol is completely proscribed.
3 – When alcohol is used for its anesthetic state (fortification), as is the Kiddush Club thing, this does not even bear overlap with oneg Shabbos. If a youngster is engaged in similar use of any form of nosh (which is not what generally happens), the same comment would apply. How would you treat a weekly Shabbos afternoon party that your child had with friends who would all stuff themselves with the latest junk food till the point of throwing up? Would you dismiss it as “oneg Shabbos” or would you point to the absence of true oneg?
4 – Alcohol is not being demonized. The patterns of using it in manners that are more likely chukkas hagoyim are being demonized.
5 – The approach being taken to social issues is the idea here, though the ones authoring this article are professionals, not Rabbonim. The issue is that there is a social pattern that is destructive, and it has virtually no redeeming value in Yiddishkeit. I am also glad that professionals spoke up and got legislation passed to mandate wearing helmets when bike riding.
6 – As for including wine in the discussion, I will voice my opinion that it is as relevant as any other form of alcoholic beverage. Statistically, it is probably less involved in problem drinkers (I do not have research to support that). When one ingests any food or drink, it is digested in the stomach and intestines. Alcohol is not digested at all. It is passed into the circulatory system where other organs manage the breakdown of the alcohol, especially the liver. Meanwhile, the alcohol may be packaged in liquor, wine, or beer, and the same process occurs. The vehicle, except for the alcohol will be digested. The bottom line is that wine has abuse potential just as any other alcoholic beverage.
7 – The video described by Dr. Zacharowicz in comment #29 is quite good and powerful. It is awaiting the incorporation of some tweaking and inclusion of feedback from other professionals in the health and chinuch fields. It is the result of concerned individuals who have worked together with some experts in the chinuch field.
8 – I read comment #33 when I was already tired. You are either sarcastic, or you need a good cold shower. The Torah did give us guidelines. Check out the Rambam – drinking to intoxication is inconsistent with avodas Hashem. As for the kids at risk, you may only care a little when one of them is yours CH”V. Who needs them???
9 – Milhouse: Enjoy your moderation use of alcohol. No one seeks to deprive you of it. Kiddush Clubs are not held to drink in moderation. They are founded on the abuse part of drinking. Banning is only sensible. If you find these parts of davening “boring”, I have pity on what your children learn from your model about tefilloh. Yes, the expectation is that we all attend the tefilloh from Ma Tovu until after Adon Olam. As for your attitude about the rabbi’s drosho, review how our Chachomim in Shas expected Shabbos and Yom Tov to be conducted. Most of the time was invested in droshos and learning Torah, not staying home and reading the Jewish media publications or socializing with friends. At least we found a way to preserve some divrei Torah. Somehow, the afternoon nap worked its way into our culture. I am aware that the Shulchan Aruch recommends this nap. However, it seems the Chachomim do not mention it. When did that enter our communities, and what is the source of the practice? Has anyone done this research?
”
How do you know that the purpose of kiddush clubs is abuse? Even if you know of one such club where things get out of hand, are you a novi to know what happens at every kiddush club, or even at most of them?
41
Jun 16, 2009 at 11:20 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Even if there's no halacha against stepping out of shul for a drink, it would definately fall under naval birshus hatorah. The proper thing to do is to sit in shul like a mature adult. Or go to a shul with a faster davening so that you don't end up bored.
Either way, is that what you want your children to think of davening, that it's boring? Today you skip haftorah, tomorrow, they skip Torah and chazaras hashatz; after, who knows if anyone still goes to shul at all...
Anyways, after a reviis of alcohol (which is not all that much) it is ASSUR to daven, and if you're a Kohen it is ASSUR to duchan! So there really is a halachik issue going on here, even if it's not leaving davening per se.
Save the drinking for after davening. Then, it is perfectly acceptable. Enjoy your drink, don't have too much, and teach your kids healthy and responsible drinking behavior. Maybe even let them have a few sips, if they're old enough. ”
What makes someone who steps out of shul to make kiddush a naval? Who gave you the right to call him that? What makes it proper to sit there the whole time? What is it, a church service, lehavdil?
And no, I don't want anyone to think davening is boring; but this is not davening. It's like the procedural stuff at the beginning of a meeting. Minutes of the last meeting, correspondence, reports, moved, seconded, all in favor, against, carried, blah, blah, blah. It may be necessary, but it's boring, and there's no need to pay attention to it.
Please tell me where it is written that one must listen to the haftarah.
No, it is NOT TRUE that it's assur to daven after a revi'is of alcohol. It is true that one may not duchen; if it's a sefardi shul, then kohanim shouldn't join the kiddush club. But there's no reason not to daven, if one is still fit to stand before the King. You are surely aware of the minhag in MANY kehillos to make kiddush before tekios on Rosh Hashana, as well as the minhag in MOST kehillos to make kiddush after shacharis on Simchas Torah (which is why the kohanim duchen in shacaris). So no, there is no halachic issue.
42
Jun 17, 2009 at 06:38 AM Anonymous Says:
“ These 3 distinguished physicians should be applauded for their courage in bringing this issue to public attention. Kiddush clubs exist in all sectors of Judaism (hence the wisdom of publishing this in The Jewish Week), but seem to predominate in the orthodox.
As a neurologist, I have written and spoken about the dangers of alcoholism, and its effects on the brain, including as an invited speaker at lat year's national convention of Agudath Israel, yet I find that many shuls and yeshivas are inexplicably reluctant to limit alcohol use on their premises.
After decades of experience, I can say that many alcoholics got their start from binging at parties--including at Purim and Simchas Torah celebrations.
A video / DVD is in its final stages of development, and will feature Rabbi Abraham Twerski and others, on the dangers of alcoholism (thanks go to Jimmy Mond for spearheading this).
Will yeshivas show the video, and educate our children--or deny there is a serious, growing problem? Will we educate our children, or continue to model alcohol use and then express surprise when our youth become problem drinkers and many become alcoholics?
”
The AGUDAH let you discuss this in PUBLIC???!!!
IKVESA D'MESHICHA!
Pack your bags!
Didn't the gadol who told the agudah convention a few years ago that the roshai yeshiva have sexual molestation under control and only one case ever slipped thru the cracks speak at this year's convention?
I'm sure the roshai yeshiva already have the drinking problem under control and all this noise is about the one case of bochur who once had a second glass of sparkling grape juice who slipped thru the cracks.
43
Jun 17, 2009 at 06:29 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Whatever happened to personal responsibility?
Hey Kids you wanna smoke do drugs drink and hang out with girls? fine!!! There are consequences to those actions, and live with it.
Those "kids" that abuse are just weak. Let them go off the Derech. Instead of banning alcohol from those that can control themselves how about we ban those kids that act like animals (abusing drugs and alcohol) and kick them out of our shuls and school and let them go to public school and live on the street, My Judaism doesn’t need them. I contend these creatures (creatures because they are animals and can’t control themselves) have no place among us. now you will yell "well some of those problems are caused by Fill in the blank abuse neglect etc... That then is a seperate problem. Here we are talking about a "normal person" that has a drink.
Ban Ban Ban is that the only original thought you have. You think drinking is some new thing>? Drugs are new? Hanging out with girls is new?
People have been doing it all for thousands of years and our Torah gives us the guidelines. Today young adults are going off the derech, so what if they can’t figure it out we don’t need. them.
A big FAN of the Kiddush Clubs... pass the bourbon please.
”
Neboch, neboch neboch.
Your poor parents and mechanchim. Neboch. What kind of din vecheshbon will they have to give (or had to give, as the case might be) for corrupting and destroying a yiddisher kind and turning it into something that not only thinks this way, not only admits it, but seems proud that it thinks this is yiddishkeit.
Neboch, neboch, neboch.
Your body may be alive but you are not. Your neshomah left you a long time ago.
On the other hand, at least you have done one good thing for all the kids who go off the derech - you have provided them with a greater measure of escape from punishment than they ever had before.
Noch hindrid intzvontzig, when the soton accuses them before bais din shel ma'aloh, Reb Levi Barditchev zy"a will come running out and shield them, using your comments as proof of the attitudes in today's frum world that lead them not to leave frumkeit but to puke it out of themselves.
44
Jun 17, 2009 at 06:19 AM Anonymous Says:
“ anything in moderation SHOULD be fine. but who determines what moderation is?
the same holds true for food. why do we have so much obesity amongst the Jews? coz its always a mitzva to eat this and taht and other than the fasting days, all holidays promote different foods.
Moderation is the key.
However, if you cannot control yourself whether with alcohol or with cake, stay away from them both. its not a mitzva to make yourself sick. ”
No, but there is certainly a mitzvah to remove stumbling blocks from the paths of alchoholics by restricting the availability of hard liquor and certainly a mitzvah to remove the lesson that inappropriate and/or excessive drinking is OK that some children learn in shul.
One who cannot moderate his consumption of cake does not go home intoxicated (and abusive) and does not cause children to think over-indulgance in cake is cool or a safe and effective method of dealing with life's hardships. One who over-indulges in cake usually teaches kids that over-indulgance in cake makes one fat, not something to which most children are likely to aspire.
45
Jun 17, 2009 at 06:11 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Rabosai,
Everyone can enjoy one or two L'Chaims on Shabbos with no problem. Let's not become crazy about this and become crying little girls going Oy vey! Oy vey! Oy vey! Come on now. Let's be men !!! L'Chaim ! ”
Lets not go crazy over this article, even the parts we don't like.
Lets act like men and learn to face reality and learn to control our behaivour.
46
Jun 17, 2009 at 06:10 AM Anonymous Says:
“ I wonder who they were writing for in the "Jewish" Week. That papers constituency does not even go to shul. Do they perhaps have kiddush club out of shul? How do they walk out of leining then?
”
Keep up the tradition of shooting the messenger.
The shame is that we only read about these issues in the Jewish Week, not in the "Jewish" Yated or "Jewish" Hamodia.
47
Jun 17, 2009 at 06:07 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Oh, just brilliant. Here's a better idea-- why not ban kugel in shul? After all-- there are more fat Jews than alcoholic Jews. ”
Laitz echod docheh mai'ah tochachos.
48
Jun 17, 2009 at 06:05 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Those in a field see everyone has having that problem. Talk to oncologists and CH"V everyone has a high risk for cancer. Talk to the psychologist and all kids are to be treated as potential kids at risk. I think there is too much text book induced thought here and little Torah...I don't care which Rabbi you are... the approach being taken to all our social issues be they real or imagined, and I believe quite a bit is imagined, is being dealt with in a very secular nature . And that includes that our perspective of what is acceptable or unacceptable behaviour is being defined by the masses although the Torah may have a different attitude than the masses.....I am sorry to leave that thought off here butI'm sure each reader can define the the issues that I may be refering to ”
Sounds like your issue is not with secular values or attitudes but with common sense.
49
Jun 17, 2009 at 06:02 AM Anonymous Says:
“ I find the statement "It is estimated that approximately 10 percent of Jewish men have problems with excessive alcohol intake" simply preposterous. One must consider that there are a large number of Jewish men that don't drink at all except for the obligitory wine for kiddush. There is a problem, but I don't think that anywhere close to 10% of the men that I know who have a couple of shots at a Shabbos morning kiddush have a problem. I'd guess that the number with an alcohol problem is much closer to 1% - 2%. We do have a recent problem in our community, but such exaggeration serves no purpose. A self enforced limit of 2 shots per person at shule Kiddushes and strict banning of so called "Kiddush clubs" is a realistic solution to any abuse that exists. ”
As I have pointed out regarding the community's response to pedophilia, spousal abuse, child abuse, drug abuse, etc......
De Nile ain't just a river in Egypt.
50
Jun 17, 2009 at 01:11 AM Beis Beis Says:
Addiction is a physical, psychological, spiritual disease. It comes in many forms alcoholic, overeating, binging, sexaholic, drugaholic, workaholic, Cellaholic; they all have one thing in common an underlying desire to escape reality. All addiction asks from you? Is to stop feeling! addiction is the lidocaine of our neshumeh.
We take strokes, seriously: heart attacks....diabetes. Cancer.....but addiction no one mentions its name (MAHN DECHAR SHEMIE) Bikur Cholim prides itself with helping all the above. But did anyone ever hear someone say, I need to be MEVAKER CHOILEH MY addicted child or MY friends Addicted husband. How hypocritical of us we create the monster and shun our own creation.
If the Bardichever would be alive today he would say to Hashem
Kol Mekadesh, all our children are holy, if not for their fathers Kiddush Club they would never learn to make Havduleh (just Say no)
51
Jun 17, 2009 at 01:10 AM Beis Beis Says:
say no)
What kind of people are we? What kind of culture have we/us/you/me established for our children?
What values do they breathe? Why do our children mutilate themselves as if oblivious to pain? Why do they drink themselves into blackouts and stupors? Why do our teenagers bludgeon their consciousness with grains of opiates? Why do our kids rip their flesh and ingest poison? Why can our children not be without GHB? Why do our daughters binge or purge? Why do our children choose starving over living? Why are our daughters dying to be thin?
Our children are in pain. They feel barren and baseless they feel empty and no amount of food can fill the vacuum. They feel anxious, awkward, and alone-and no amount of sedatives or stimulants can overcome their internalized self-doubt.
Our children see their fathers cure ,they see the parents glorify the little G-D of Gufen and block out the greater G-D of Havdule.they see the parents not being able to differentiate the sacred from the profane, they see the parents making Kiddush to their bodies while at the same time saying Kaddish to their souls.
52
Jun 17, 2009 at 07:13 AM Anonymous Says:
As an European jew I never ever heard about a "kiddush club". What is it? To blame the shtetl life for this invention seems wrong since it appear to me to be a purely American invention.
53
Jun 17, 2009 at 06:48 AM Anonymous Says:
“ How do you know that the purpose of kiddush clubs is abuse? Even if you know of one such club where things get out of hand, are you a novi to know what happens at every kiddush club, or even at most of them? ”
Count on Milhouse to be against progress.
If I had any doubt whatsoever, his objection to this idea would have removed it entirely.
54
Jun 17, 2009 at 06:47 AM Anonymous Says:
“ I, and my sons, enjoy fine liquors - responsibly and never during davening. Some kids are, in fact, responsible enough to handle the situation. One of my sons turned down an offer of liquor on Purim from someone because it wasn't to his liking. When he told the offerer his preference, that liquor was out of the host's price range. An alcoholic doesn't drink fine liquors - they drink cheap stuff for the "high" - not for the pleasure. My sons also can explain the chemistry behind the distillation process. There is no reason to keep all kids away from the stuff - many of them are mature enough and responsible enough to handle it properly. ”
On behalf of the rest of the unwashed masses, allow me to express what an honor it is to be graced with the company ot such a sophistimecated jentleman such as yourself.
55
Jun 17, 2009 at 06:44 AM Anonymous Says:
“ I guess I am not the only one whose comment is being misunderstood. I am taking the liberty to respond to these misunderstandings.
1 – I do not advocate the prohibition of alcohol. It won’t work, it didn’t work, and it is unnecessary. The banning and elimination that is warranted is a fabricated “minhag” of imbibing for a purpose that is unrelated to any davar shebikedusha.
2 – One can teach moderation in alcohol use by example. Kiddush Clubs undo whatever other efforts are made to teach moderation. And we should not forget that there are some people that are unable to maintain moderation. For these individuals, alcohol is completely proscribed.
3 – When alcohol is used for its anesthetic state (fortification), as is the Kiddush Club thing, this does not even bear overlap with oneg Shabbos. If a youngster is engaged in similar use of any form of nosh (which is not what generally happens), the same comment would apply. How would you treat a weekly Shabbos afternoon party that your child had with friends who would all stuff themselves with the latest junk food till the point of throwing up? Would you dismiss it as “oneg Shabbos” or would you point to the absence of true oneg?
4 – Alcohol is not being demonized. The patterns of using it in manners that are more likely chukkas hagoyim are being demonized.
5 – The approach being taken to social issues is the idea here, though the ones authoring this article are professionals, not Rabbonim. The issue is that there is a social pattern that is destructive, and it has virtually no redeeming value in Yiddishkeit. I am also glad that professionals spoke up and got legislation passed to mandate wearing helmets when bike riding.
6 – As for including wine in the discussion, I will voice my opinion that it is as relevant as any other form of alcoholic beverage. Statistically, it is probably less involved in problem drinkers (I do not have research to support that). When one ingests any food or drink, it is digested in the stomach and intestines. Alcohol is not digested at all. It is passed into the circulatory system where other organs manage the breakdown of the alcohol, especially the liver. Meanwhile, the alcohol may be packaged in liquor, wine, or beer, and the same process occurs. The vehicle, except for the alcohol will be digested. The bottom line is that wine has abuse potential just as any other alcoholic beverage.
7 – The video described by Dr. Zacharowicz in comment #29 is quite good and powerful. It is awaiting the incorporation of some tweaking and inclusion of feedback from other professionals in the health and chinuch fields. It is the result of concerned individuals who have worked together with some experts in the chinuch field.
8 – I read comment #33 when I was already tired. You are either sarcastic, or you need a good cold shower. The Torah did give us guidelines. Check out the Rambam – drinking to intoxication is inconsistent with avodas Hashem. As for the kids at risk, you may only care a little when one of them is yours CH”V. Who needs them???
9 – Milhouse: Enjoy your moderation use of alcohol. No one seeks to deprive you of it. Kiddush Clubs are not held to drink in moderation. They are founded on the abuse part of drinking. Banning is only sensible. If you find these parts of davening “boring”, I have pity on what your children learn from your model about tefilloh. Yes, the expectation is that we all attend the tefilloh from Ma Tovu until after Adon Olam. As for your attitude about the rabbi’s drosho, review how our Chachomim in Shas expected Shabbos and Yom Tov to be conducted. Most of the time was invested in droshos and learning Torah, not staying home and reading the Jewish media publications or socializing with friends. At least we found a way to preserve some divrei Torah. Somehow, the afternoon nap worked its way into our culture. I am aware that the Shulchan Aruch recommends this nap. However, it seems the Chachomim do not mention it. When did that enter our communities, and what is the source of the practice? Has anyone done this research?
”
Re: Point #5 – "The approach being taken to social issues is the idea here, though the ones authoring this article are professionals, not Rabbonim. The issue is that there is a social pattern that is destructive, and it has virtually no redeeming value in Yiddishkeit. I am also glad that professionals spoke up and got legislation passed to mandate wearing helmets when bike riding."
Perhaps the time has come for rabbonim to either take the lead on the matzav of frum society or officially abandon that role so that when others try to solve these problems the Neanderthals don't come out yelling that 1) no one should do anything because 'da'as torah' hasn't told them to and 2) there must not be a problem or 'da'as torah' would have recognized it and fixed it already.
56
Jun 17, 2009 at 07:56 AM KAS Says:
In my neighborhood those who complain loudest when a "ban" of alcohol in shul is discussed are the ones who are abusers of alcohol rather than occasional oneg shabbos drinkers. I assume the same is true withing the comments on this blog. Every shul has a few loud mouths that complain when a ban is contemplated. 100% of the time their wives are at home praying for a ban. Ultimately the reason they oppose the ban so strongly is that they prefer to get drunk on the free booze in shul.
57
Jun 17, 2009 at 08:32 AM Anonymous Says:
“ In my neighborhood those who complain loudest when a "ban" of alcohol in shul is discussed are the ones who are abusers of alcohol rather than occasional oneg shabbos drinkers. I assume the same is true withing the comments on this blog. Every shul has a few loud mouths that complain when a ban is contemplated. 100% of the time their wives are at home praying for a ban. Ultimately the reason they oppose the ban so strongly is that they prefer to get drunk on the free booze in shul. ”
"Every shul has a few loud mouths that complain when a ban is contemplated. "
Wile suggestion here - Let every shul hire a talmid chochom who will speak up and respond to the loudmouths (who are usually loudmouths about everything, not just about drinking, especially once they have started drinking).
In fact, once they hire this person, he can speak up about all the problems in the shul and even paskan a few shailos and help shul members when they need chizuk and encourage other shul members to pitch in and lend a hand to their less fortunate fellow members.
Maybe even give the person an official title and some authority to make rules for the good of the shul.
Just don't let him sit on mizrach vant or make him get involved in the finances.
The former can go to his head and the latter can cloud his judgement.
58
Jun 17, 2009 at 09:42 AM The Rabbi Says:
ok I'll meet all of you guys during Maftir this week for Matjas Herring, Kichel's and Single Malt Scotch!
59
Jun 17, 2009 at 10:02 AM Anonymous Says:
“ I have Baruch Hashem been zocheh to marry off two children. At the weddings, I successfully replaced wine and schnapps almost exclusively with COLD sparklling grape juice, soda, and water. To acccommodate certain Minhagim, I had two liters of hard liquor, and two wine, which were watched very carefully. Most remained at end of Simcha. (this is for almost seven hundred guests total at the two affairs.) I received many compliments, only one complaint! Many thought it was a new kind of champagne, and liked it. I went home with a clear conscience, knowing that I did all I could to send everyone home happy and sober. It was new to one of the caterers, but he has recommended it to others. ”
Do you have no qualms about the diabetes and obesity epidemic then?
60
Jun 17, 2009 at 10:12 AM Anonymous Says:
“ say no)
What kind of people are we? What kind of culture have we/us/you/me established for our children?
What values do they breathe? Why do our children mutilate themselves as if oblivious to pain? Why do they drink themselves into blackouts and stupors? Why do our teenagers bludgeon their consciousness with grains of opiates? Why do our kids rip their flesh and ingest poison? Why can our children not be without GHB? Why do our daughters binge or purge? Why do our children choose starving over living? Why are our daughters dying to be thin?
Our children are in pain. They feel barren and baseless they feel empty and no amount of food can fill the vacuum. They feel anxious, awkward, and alone-and no amount of sedatives or stimulants can overcome their internalized self-doubt.
Our children see their fathers cure ,they see the parents glorify the little G-D of Gufen and block out the greater G-D of Havdule.they see the parents not being able to differentiate the sacred from the profane, they see the parents making Kiddush to their bodies while at the same time saying Kaddish to their souls.
”
Wow, talk about overdramatization!
I am not justifying it, but someone please suggest a vialble alternative.
So many men are dealing with the weight of financial stress that orthodoxy forces onto them. Just making enough money to actually live in a jewish neighborhood and provide your kids with a Jewish education is overdaunting. For the majority of orthodox men this causes a great deal of stress, sleep loss and feeling of incompitance. For those of you who have enough money to survive and dont feel the overwhelming day in and day out stress of trying to keep a roof on your head and food on your table for your children its easy to critique others. You cant imagine what it feels like. I understand the problems the authors of this article have but you are trying to treat a symptom and not the problem. Either suggest an alternative medication or find a way to really deal with the issue.
61
Jun 17, 2009 at 10:21 AM Anonymous Says:
“ I have Baruch Hashem been zocheh to marry off two children. At the weddings, I successfully replaced wine and schnapps almost exclusively with COLD sparklling grape juice, soda, and water. To acccommodate certain Minhagim, I had two liters of hard liquor, and two wine, which were watched very carefully. Most remained at end of Simcha. (this is for almost seven hundred guests total at the two affairs.) I received many compliments, only one complaint! Many thought it was a new kind of champagne, and liked it. I went home with a clear conscience, knowing that I did all I could to send everyone home happy and sober. It was new to one of the caterers, but he has recommended it to others. ”
you made two wedding with 700 people? I guess you are not one of the people that have to deall with the day in and day out stress of keeping a roof on your head and food on your table. Atually take a step back and think about that. Constant never ending fear of paying the bills for basic needs. NEEDS. Think about those people and there are a lot of them. How do you suggest that guy gets a temporary reprieve?
62
Jun 17, 2009 at 10:28 AM Anonymous Says:
“ you made two wedding with 700 people? I guess you are not one of the people that have to deall with the day in and day out stress of keeping a roof on your head and food on your table. Atually take a step back and think about that. Constant never ending fear of paying the bills for basic needs. NEEDS. Think about those people and there are a lot of them. How do you suggest that guy gets a temporary reprieve? ”
I agree! There is a reason this problem is getting bigger yet not a sole suggests of a way to deal with it. People have financial problems like never before. Its no coincidence that the alcohol problem coincides with that. Alcohol may not be the answer. What is?
63
Jun 17, 2009 at 10:23 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Wow, talk about overdramatization!
I am not justifying it, but someone please suggest a vialble alternative.
So many men are dealing with the weight of financial stress that orthodoxy forces onto them. Just making enough money to actually live in a jewish neighborhood and provide your kids with a Jewish education is overdaunting. For the majority of orthodox men this causes a great deal of stress, sleep loss and feeling of incompitance. For those of you who have enough money to survive and dont feel the overwhelming day in and day out stress of trying to keep a roof on your head and food on your table for your children its easy to critique others. You cant imagine what it feels like. I understand the problems the authors of this article have but you are trying to treat a symptom and not the problem. Either suggest an alternative medication or find a way to really deal with the issue. ”
That is an excellent point! In todays day and age people are just trying to make ends meet. I know of people that literaly worry about losing their homes. What kind of relief do they have?
64
Jun 17, 2009 at 10:57 AM Kass Says:
“ That is an excellent point! In todays day and age people are just trying to make ends meet. I know of people that literaly worry about losing their homes. What kind of relief do they have? ”
relief??? are you nuts? its not relief to drink your problems away. The problems remain once you sober up.
65
Jun 17, 2009 at 12:21 PM stressed out Says:
“ Wow, talk about overdramatization!
I am not justifying it, but someone please suggest a vialble alternative.
So many men are dealing with the weight of financial stress that orthodoxy forces onto them. Just making enough money to actually live in a jewish neighborhood and provide your kids with a Jewish education is overdaunting. For the majority of orthodox men this causes a great deal of stress, sleep loss and feeling of incompitance. For those of you who have enough money to survive and dont feel the overwhelming day in and day out stress of trying to keep a roof on your head and food on your table for your children its easy to critique others. You cant imagine what it feels like. I understand the problems the authors of this article have but you are trying to treat a symptom and not the problem. Either suggest an alternative medication or find a way to really deal with the issue. ”
You are quite right and I feel this is an issue that has long been ignored. The stresses placed upon Orthodox men, to provide for families, tuitions, mortgages,
tzedakahs, shul, learning, etc.
Back in Europe, parents sent off kids to Yeshiva without a penny and did not pay tuitions after 13. Kids who didn't learn worked from age 14. The average person was not involved in financing Yeshivas, shuls, camps a myriad of tzedakahs for every conceivable cause. The stress engendered by these obligations is overwhelming. It would be nice to at least get some recognition.
66
Jun 17, 2009 at 11:19 AM Anonymous Says:
“ relief??? are you nuts? its not relief to drink your problems away. The problems remain once you sober up. ”
I am not saying the alchohol is the relief nor do I suggest the problems dissapear. I am asking what alternative there is. What solution is there? How should one get TEMPORARY relief for the constant discomfort of not knowing where next months mortgage payment will come from. Just suggest an alternative rather than bash what people are doing. Its obvious that the aformentioned stress is related to the alcohol abuse. We all know its not the answer. How about suggesting one?
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Jun 17, 2009 at 01:03 PM Ben Kochba Says:
“ Neboch, neboch neboch.
Your poor parents and mechanchim. Neboch. What kind of din vecheshbon will they have to give (or had to give, as the case might be) for corrupting and destroying a yiddisher kind and turning it into something that not only thinks this way, not only admits it, but seems proud that it thinks this is yiddishkeit.
Neboch, neboch, neboch.
Your body may be alive but you are not. Your neshomah left you a long time ago.
On the other hand, at least you have done one good thing for all the kids who go off the derech - you have provided them with a greater measure of escape from punishment than they ever had before.
Noch hindrid intzvontzig, when the soton accuses them before bais din shel ma'aloh, Reb Levi Barditchev zy"a will come running out and shield them, using your comments as proof of the attitudes in today's frum world that lead them not to leave frumkeit but to puke it out of themselves. ”
What are you talking about??? How dare you use me as a defense for people that abuse themselves and made their own choices in life. Do you mean to tell me that on Yom Kippur instead of making a Din Vcheshbon of myself and my actions I should stand there and blame everything I did on someone else. Is that what you do?
Nebech on my Yiddeshkiet why? Do not mistake me for a coldhearted person, I do feel badly for these people and I work very hard on keeping boys in Yeshiva and am a positive role model. But there comes a point in a young adults life where he is RESPONSIBLE FOR HIM/HER SELF. Why should we have Rochmanos on those people. They are the corrupting influence on other young adults. I grew up seeing men have a LChiam be it at a wedding, kiddush, shabbos meal. I never saw men getting flat out drunk and stumbling around. If I saw that everyone I know would condemn him for his actions.
So now you want to tell me that men drinking causes young adults to go off the derech and abuse alcohol. I just dont buy it. They are going off the Derech because THEY WANT TO!!!
Once that happens then we let them go. Should they wish to return, that is between them and G-d and I have no problem welcoming them back. I do have a problem when they get flat out drunk, sit in a drug stupor, come to shul shabbos morning with smoke on their breath and hang out with girls jewish and non jewish, and their parents let them sleep at home. That is where the negative influences are. Not with upstanding yidden leading normal lives who go to a Kiddush club.
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Jun 17, 2009 at 02:15 PM Final Nekudah Says:
Most abuse would end if shuls davened at a reasonable pace with enthusiasm and shir and ended by 12:00PM so everyone could enjoy the kiddush and not be starved. I walk a few miles to shul on shabbos and I need to eat or I feel faint. Let the Rav make announcements and a long speech at the Kiddush. Do this and noone will run out to get drunk and eat cake before mussaf.
69
Jun 17, 2009 at 01:32 PM Ben Kochba Says:
“ I guess I am not the only one whose comment is being misunderstood. I am taking the liberty to respond to these misunderstandings.
1 – I do not advocate the prohibition of alcohol. It won’t work, it didn’t work, and it is unnecessary. The banning and elimination that is warranted is a fabricated “minhag” of imbibing for a purpose that is unrelated to any davar shebikedusha.
2 – One can teach moderation in alcohol use by example. Kiddush Clubs undo whatever other efforts are made to teach moderation. And we should not forget that there are some people that are unable to maintain moderation. For these individuals, alcohol is completely proscribed.
3 – When alcohol is used for its anesthetic state (fortification), as is the Kiddush Club thing, this does not even bear overlap with oneg Shabbos. If a youngster is engaged in similar use of any form of nosh (which is not what generally happens), the same comment would apply. How would you treat a weekly Shabbos afternoon party that your child had with friends who would all stuff themselves with the latest junk food till the point of throwing up? Would you dismiss it as “oneg Shabbos” or would you point to the absence of true oneg?
4 – Alcohol is not being demonized. The patterns of using it in manners that are more likely chukkas hagoyim are being demonized.
5 – The approach being taken to social issues is the idea here, though the ones authoring this article are professionals, not Rabbonim. The issue is that there is a social pattern that is destructive, and it has virtually no redeeming value in Yiddishkeit. I am also glad that professionals spoke up and got legislation passed to mandate wearing helmets when bike riding.
6 – As for including wine in the discussion, I will voice my opinion that it is as relevant as any other form of alcoholic beverage. Statistically, it is probably less involved in problem drinkers (I do not have research to support that). When one ingests any food or drink, it is digested in the stomach and intestines. Alcohol is not digested at all. It is passed into the circulatory system where other organs manage the breakdown of the alcohol, especially the liver. Meanwhile, the alcohol may be packaged in liquor, wine, or beer, and the same process occurs. The vehicle, except for the alcohol will be digested. The bottom line is that wine has abuse potential just as any other alcoholic beverage.
7 – The video described by Dr. Zacharowicz in comment #29 is quite good and powerful. It is awaiting the incorporation of some tweaking and inclusion of feedback from other professionals in the health and chinuch fields. It is the result of concerned individuals who have worked together with some experts in the chinuch field.
8 – I read comment #33 when I was already tired. You are either sarcastic, or you need a good cold shower. The Torah did give us guidelines. Check out the Rambam – drinking to intoxication is inconsistent with avodas Hashem. As for the kids at risk, you may only care a little when one of them is yours CH”V. Who needs them???
9 – Milhouse: Enjoy your moderation use of alcohol. No one seeks to deprive you of it. Kiddush Clubs are not held to drink in moderation. They are founded on the abuse part of drinking. Banning is only sensible. If you find these parts of davening “boring”, I have pity on what your children learn from your model about tefilloh. Yes, the expectation is that we all attend the tefilloh from Ma Tovu until after Adon Olam. As for your attitude about the rabbi’s drosho, review how our Chachomim in Shas expected Shabbos and Yom Tov to be conducted. Most of the time was invested in droshos and learning Torah, not staying home and reading the Jewish media publications or socializing with friends. At least we found a way to preserve some divrei Torah. Somehow, the afternoon nap worked its way into our culture. I am aware that the Shulchan Aruch recommends this nap. However, it seems the Chachomim do not mention it. When did that enter our communities, and what is the source of the practice? Has anyone done this research?
”
Take a cold shower>? Maybe some of the people you deal with should take a cold shower. Calm them down a little bit before they go out clubbing.
Lets talk about my kids, and how I was raised. A man has a responsibility to himself, his family, his Kehilla, and Klal Yisroel.
If you choose yourself over all else then you are on your own and you are not part of this family, kehilla, and Klal Yisroel.
Please tell me who does need them? Why does Klal Yisroel need them. They turned their backs on us. When they want to come back thats fine but they have to deserve it. These people what do they do. They take their education and trash it. Everything is always someone elses fault. They are doing drugs to escape/ escape what. ( I am not talking about abused kids) The only abused kids I know are wonderful people. I do know plenty of spoiled rotten kids who do what ever they want drive fancy cars with unlimited credit cards that party do drugs and abuse alcohal/ most of them arent affected by the Kiddush club because they cant get to shul early enough for it. So again I just dont buy the article.So if CHV my kid turns out like that then he can enjoy making it in life without any of my help. I think the sidewalk is a better motivator than your never ending coddling. Life in America has made us all too soft. I guess we just think differently, you think we need to bring them back and I think they need to want to come back.
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Jun 17, 2009 at 02:37 PM Milhouse Says:
“ relief??? are you nuts? its not relief to drink your problems away. The problems remain once you sober up. ”
But a drink or two relieves the stress and lets a person loosen up and enjoy shabbos. That's why Hashem gave us this wonderful gift. Remember the medrash about the seven animals to which alcohol is compared.
71
Jun 17, 2009 at 02:32 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Count on Milhouse to be against progress.
If I had any doubt whatsoever, his objection to this idea would have removed it entirely. ”
What's so progressive about taking away a pleasure from yidden?
72
Jun 17, 2009 at 03:30 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I guess I am not the only one whose comment is being misunderstood. I am taking the liberty to respond to these misunderstandings.
1 – I do not advocate the prohibition of alcohol. It won’t work, it didn’t work, and it is unnecessary. The banning and elimination that is warranted is a fabricated “minhag” of imbibing for a purpose that is unrelated to any davar shebikedusha.
2 – One can teach moderation in alcohol use by example. Kiddush Clubs undo whatever other efforts are made to teach moderation. And we should not forget that there are some people that are unable to maintain moderation. For these individuals, alcohol is completely proscribed.
3 – When alcohol is used for its anesthetic state (fortification), as is the Kiddush Club thing, this does not even bear overlap with oneg Shabbos. If a youngster is engaged in similar use of any form of nosh (which is not what generally happens), the same comment would apply. How would you treat a weekly Shabbos afternoon party that your child had with friends who would all stuff themselves with the latest junk food till the point of throwing up? Would you dismiss it as “oneg Shabbos” or would you point to the absence of true oneg?
4 – Alcohol is not being demonized. The patterns of using it in manners that are more likely chukkas hagoyim are being demonized.
5 – The approach being taken to social issues is the idea here, though the ones authoring this article are professionals, not Rabbonim. The issue is that there is a social pattern that is destructive, and it has virtually no redeeming value in Yiddishkeit. I am also glad that professionals spoke up and got legislation passed to mandate wearing helmets when bike riding.
6 – As for including wine in the discussion, I will voice my opinion that it is as relevant as any other form of alcoholic beverage. Statistically, it is probably less involved in problem drinkers (I do not have research to support that). When one ingests any food or drink, it is digested in the stomach and intestines. Alcohol is not digested at all. It is passed into the circulatory system where other organs manage the breakdown of the alcohol, especially the liver. Meanwhile, the alcohol may be packaged in liquor, wine, or beer, and the same process occurs. The vehicle, except for the alcohol will be digested. The bottom line is that wine has abuse potential just as any other alcoholic beverage.
7 – The video described by Dr. Zacharowicz in comment #29 is quite good and powerful. It is awaiting the incorporation of some tweaking and inclusion of feedback from other professionals in the health and chinuch fields. It is the result of concerned individuals who have worked together with some experts in the chinuch field.
8 – I read comment #33 when I was already tired. You are either sarcastic, or you need a good cold shower. The Torah did give us guidelines. Check out the Rambam – drinking to intoxication is inconsistent with avodas Hashem. As for the kids at risk, you may only care a little when one of them is yours CH”V. Who needs them???
9 – Milhouse: Enjoy your moderation use of alcohol. No one seeks to deprive you of it. Kiddush Clubs are not held to drink in moderation. They are founded on the abuse part of drinking. Banning is only sensible. If you find these parts of davening “boring”, I have pity on what your children learn from your model about tefilloh. Yes, the expectation is that we all attend the tefilloh from Ma Tovu until after Adon Olam. As for your attitude about the rabbi’s drosho, review how our Chachomim in Shas expected Shabbos and Yom Tov to be conducted. Most of the time was invested in droshos and learning Torah, not staying home and reading the Jewish media publications or socializing with friends. At least we found a way to preserve some divrei Torah. Somehow, the afternoon nap worked its way into our culture. I am aware that the Shulchan Aruch recommends this nap. However, it seems the Chachomim do not mention it. When did that enter our communities, and what is the source of the practice? Has anyone done this research?
”
Rabbi Twersky keep up the great work. There will always be those to whom logic, rationality, Torah, science, make no sense.
73
Jun 17, 2009 at 05:17 PM Benzion Twerski Says:
“ Take a cold shower>? Maybe some of the people you deal with should take a cold shower. Calm them down a little bit before they go out clubbing.
Lets talk about my kids, and how I was raised. A man has a responsibility to himself, his family, his Kehilla, and Klal Yisroel.
If you choose yourself over all else then you are on your own and you are not part of this family, kehilla, and Klal Yisroel.
Please tell me who does need them? Why does Klal Yisroel need them. They turned their backs on us. When they want to come back thats fine but they have to deserve it. These people what do they do. They take their education and trash it. Everything is always someone elses fault. They are doing drugs to escape/ escape what. ( I am not talking about abused kids) The only abused kids I know are wonderful people. I do know plenty of spoiled rotten kids who do what ever they want drive fancy cars with unlimited credit cards that party do drugs and abuse alcohal/ most of them arent affected by the Kiddush club because they cant get to shul early enough for it. So again I just dont buy the article.So if CHV my kid turns out like that then he can enjoy making it in life without any of my help. I think the sidewalk is a better motivator than your never ending coddling. Life in America has made us all too soft. I guess we just think differently, you think we need to bring them back and I think they need to want to come back.
”
Your perception is that these young people who have turned off to Yiddishkeit have chosen to drop out of our kehilla and from the Torah based lifestyle we hold so dear. I will quote a label that I heard from many people who discussed the subject quite some years ago. These kids are not “drop outs” but “throw outs”. Their choices to go the wrong way are not completely attributed to their own bechira. Much comes from us, as adults, parents, mechanchim, leaders, members of the community. There are individual differences that account for one person having certain talents and weaknesses. We can connect these to one’s constitution or even genetics. It becomes our mission as the ones raising these children to fulfill our responsibility of “al pi darko”, providing the guidance and direction in a manner that is individualized and will be effective for each child. That is a tough job even for someone with training, and too few of us have undergone even limited training to qualify us for childraising. So we do our jobs of chinuch habonim with imperfection. But this does not put 100% responsibility on the youngster. And where in the middle it falls is a useless argument. My point is that we have a portion of the responsibility to provide the chinuch that protects our children, each with their specific propensities, strengths, and weaknesses, from the frightening influences such as those described in this article and others.
So now that we gave them the initial push that they carried into the streets, whether drugs, alcohol, or other ta’avos, shall we wash our hands of them? Shall we continue the rejection of these neshamos? How will we have the conscience to ask HKB”H to return to us, His children, when we demonstrate that our derech is to reject our own children? I will add that the greatest percentage of these kids are abuse victims, though the forms of abuse vary widely. I have no statistics to cite. My experience, and those of many of my colleagues, suggest that there are many forms of abuse and neglect aside from molestation or physical violence that are replete in the histories of these OTD kids. The use of embarrassment as a disciplinary tool is rampant, and I do not have strong enough words in my vocabulary to decry this travesty. The use of open rejection (as in impulsive, knee jerk reactionary suspensions and expulsions from yeshivos and schools) is not an acceptable form of discipline, despite being extremely common. There are those who need to be forced to relocate to another yeshiva/school, but the rejection manner in which this is done is horribly destructive. This is the product of poor training in chinuch. It is also in contrast to what the masters of chinuch, such as the Chazon Ish, Rav Pam, Rav Shach, Chofetz Chaim, all ZT”L, and many others guided us to be doing. After a few of these rejections, and the challenges in finding where to go, what should a youngster do? He has been told in words and actions that he is unwanted and unimportant. A cold shower just won’t help at that point. I have worked with several hundred addicts from the frum community over the years. Virtually none of them went that way because of the attraction to the addiction. All were escaping, though what they were running from was rarely apparent until after considerable work and recovery. I’m sorry, but I see them as victims of what we subjected them to, not the other way. I can hold them responsible for their behaviors. But it was us who pushed them out, at least to some degree.
Yes, Klal Yisroel needs them. The Baal Shem Tov did much to show the value of the simple Yid. The rejected neshomoh is just as holy and precious to HKB”H as the ones clothed in the body of a talmid chochom who occupies status positions in the community. It is not for us mortals to judge which neshamos to keep or discard. If we expect HKB”H to embrace us, we need to treat our children with that midoh.
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Jun 17, 2009 at 05:47 PM Daveman Says:
I am serving cereal and milk at my next childs wedding. Let's just ban everything but bread and water like the MIshna says...and maybe even ban bread because it makes people fat!
75
Jun 17, 2009 at 05:55 PM ga Says:
“ Your perception is that these young people who have turned off to Yiddishkeit have chosen to drop out of our kehilla and from the Torah based lifestyle we hold so dear. I will quote a label that I heard from many people who discussed the subject quite some years ago. These kids are not “drop outs” but “throw outs”. Their choices to go the wrong way are not completely attributed to their own bechira. Much comes from us, as adults, parents, mechanchim, leaders, members of the community. There are individual differences that account for one person having certain talents and weaknesses. We can connect these to one’s constitution or even genetics. It becomes our mission as the ones raising these children to fulfill our responsibility of “al pi darko”, providing the guidance and direction in a manner that is individualized and will be effective for each child. That is a tough job even for someone with training, and too few of us have undergone even limited training to qualify us for childraising. So we do our jobs of chinuch habonim with imperfection. But this does not put 100% responsibility on the youngster. And where in the middle it falls is a useless argument. My point is that we have a portion of the responsibility to provide the chinuch that protects our children, each with their specific propensities, strengths, and weaknesses, from the frightening influences such as those described in this article and others.
So now that we gave them the initial push that they carried into the streets, whether drugs, alcohol, or other ta’avos, shall we wash our hands of them? Shall we continue the rejection of these neshamos? How will we have the conscience to ask HKB”H to return to us, His children, when we demonstrate that our derech is to reject our own children? I will add that the greatest percentage of these kids are abuse victims, though the forms of abuse vary widely. I have no statistics to cite. My experience, and those of many of my colleagues, suggest that there are many forms of abuse and neglect aside from molestation or physical violence that are replete in the histories of these OTD kids. The use of embarrassment as a disciplinary tool is rampant, and I do not have strong enough words in my vocabulary to decry this travesty. The use of open rejection (as in impulsive, knee jerk reactionary suspensions and expulsions from yeshivos and schools) is not an acceptable form of discipline, despite being extremely common. There are those who need to be forced to relocate to another yeshiva/school, but the rejection manner in which this is done is horribly destructive. This is the product of poor training in chinuch. It is also in contrast to what the masters of chinuch, such as the Chazon Ish, Rav Pam, Rav Shach, Chofetz Chaim, all ZT”L, and many others guided us to be doing. After a few of these rejections, and the challenges in finding where to go, what should a youngster do? He has been told in words and actions that he is unwanted and unimportant. A cold shower just won’t help at that point. I have worked with several hundred addicts from the frum community over the years. Virtually none of them went that way because of the attraction to the addiction. All were escaping, though what they were running from was rarely apparent until after considerable work and recovery. I’m sorry, but I see them as victims of what we subjected them to, not the other way. I can hold them responsible for their behaviors. But it was us who pushed them out, at least to some degree.
Yes, Klal Yisroel needs them. The Baal Shem Tov did much to show the value of the simple Yid. The rejected neshomoh is just as holy and precious to HKB”H as the ones clothed in the body of a talmid chochom who occupies status positions in the community. It is not for us mortals to judge which neshamos to keep or discard. If we expect HKB”H to embrace us, we need to treat our children with that midoh.
”
Rabbi Twersky -
While I don't think that "Bar Kochba" is right, I do think that he is bringing up some points that should be looked at realistically. Obviously we are not saying get those kids out of here, we never want to see them again, etc. However, the attitude that our society has that it's NEVER the kid's fault at all is just as damaging...why should a kid do what's right if he can do everything that he wants and it will all be blamed on his parents/Rebbeim?
Also, you mention the "knee-jerk" reaction of throwing kids out of yeshivos. I would like to think that every Rosh Yeshiva who unfortunately has to make such a decision thinks long and hard before taking such a drastic step. But please bear in mind that we are talking about ONE kid - not Chas V'shalom to minimize what one Neshoma means, but still ONE - and when that one is having a negative affect on the rest of a grade, there is a Chiyuv to the person who has taken responsibility for ALL of the kids to remove the one obstacle, painful as it may be. I know that in the Yeshiva that I have a lot of shaychus with, a kid will never be thrown out for what he does wrong, if he does it by himself. But when he starts bringing his friends down, something needs to give.
Your thoughts?
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Jun 17, 2009 at 08:55 PM Sambo Says:
in the 1960's, the shtibl I davened in had a group of men who slipped out during maftir & came back 10 mins. later smiling & happier. These were ALL survivors, & they did the same in pre-war Europe. I don't know if ALL Joos are now BT's bnei BTs, but there IS a mesorah for this minhag.
Then & now, the opportunity to socialize informally with 1-3 oz. of nice bourbon, away from real world stresses, is invaluable. It's not a crutch, it's not alcoholism, it's not a river anywhere let alone in Egypt. It's benign.
If you're a BT, or otherwise terribly holy, just don't go out & drink w/the guys. If you haven't been invited, maybe a bit of SIMCHAS haChaim is in order. I'm no Breslover, but the hostility in so many of these posts is worrisome. And the arrogance. And the Holierness-than-thou.
I'm a physician, I have b"h kids who are adults who are very moderate drinkers, & I hope to show the next generation the peaceful un-molested pleasures of the Klub formerly Known as Kiddush (KKK).
Wasting people's time in shul w/endless announcements, mishebeirachs, gorgling by wannabe chazzanim who aren't--that's geneivah as well.
Don't ask, don't tell/
L'CHIAM!! & Gut Shabbos.
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Jun 17, 2009 at 10:23 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I, and my sons, enjoy fine liquors - responsibly and never during davening. Some kids are, in fact, responsible enough to handle the situation. One of my sons turned down an offer of liquor on Purim from someone because it wasn't to his liking. When he told the offerer his preference, that liquor was out of the host's price range. An alcoholic doesn't drink fine liquors - they drink cheap stuff for the "high" - not for the pleasure. My sons also can explain the chemistry behind the distillation process. There is no reason to keep all kids away from the stuff - many of them are mature enough and responsible enough to handle it properly. ”
How old are they? In the US isn't it illegal to drink alcohol under 21?
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Jun 17, 2009 at 10:23 PM Benzion Twerski Says:
“ Rabbi Twersky -
While I don't think that "Bar Kochba" is right, I do think that he is bringing up some points that should be looked at realistically. Obviously we are not saying get those kids out of here, we never want to see them again, etc. However, the attitude that our society has that it's NEVER the kid's fault at all is just as damaging...why should a kid do what's right if he can do everything that he wants and it will all be blamed on his parents/Rebbeim?
Also, you mention the "knee-jerk" reaction of throwing kids out of yeshivos. I would like to think that every Rosh Yeshiva who unfortunately has to make such a decision thinks long and hard before taking such a drastic step. But please bear in mind that we are talking about ONE kid - not Chas V'shalom to minimize what one Neshoma means, but still ONE - and when that one is having a negative affect on the rest of a grade, there is a Chiyuv to the person who has taken responsibility for ALL of the kids to remove the one obstacle, painful as it may be. I know that in the Yeshiva that I have a lot of shaychus with, a kid will never be thrown out for what he does wrong, if he does it by himself. But when he starts bringing his friends down, something needs to give.
Your thoughts? ”
GA:
The point that you are defending is the role of responsibility for oneself that each of these youngsters has. I agree wholeheartedly. The difference is that I am unwilling to sit by the side and say good riddance. Because I know well that I, as a member of the establishment, had a contributing hand in pushing the kid there. Yes, he made some unwise and wrong choices. But he is still there, in part, because I pushed him there. The responsibility to bring him back falls squarely on my shoulders (the “I” and “my” are collective).
Regarding the throw aways in which I pointed a blaming finger at yeshivos, I can only repeat my position. Whenever I challenged (too strong a word – actually attempted to advocate with) a rosh yeshiva regarding an expulsion or plan to expel, I was greeted with a statement that gave the impression that we were dealing with a rodef, a talmid who was corrupting others. When pushed to the wall, there was no basis to believe that assumption, only a fear that was founded on misperception or misunderstanding of what was really happening. As with many other consequences that I find inappropriate, many are being levied with the notion of, “What else is there to do?” I consider this lack of knowledge inexcusable and ignorant. That was my statement, oft repeated, that we are placing people, albeit well intentioned, into positions of being responsible for children without the skills to manage this. It was once assumed that the ratio of time spent in class of teaching to management was 80:20. These days, the ratio is probably reversed. This is because of several factors. Most mechanchim have little to no training in creating a curriculum. The skills that many do have were learned on the job, with trial and error (usually a great way to learn) being at the expense of the children. Many do not know how to make the learning interesting. This latter point is more important than it initially appears, but that subject deserves its own forum. Lastly, the ideas and approaches that are common in regards to discipline are archaic at best, and more often ineffective. Perhaps there is some deterioration in the generation that renders previous forms of discipline useless. But it is mostly a challenge which chinuch struggles with, and it is only training and experience of master mechanchim that can show the way. I wish I could use the space here to advertise for some of the existing training programs that exist. I will say that a stroll down the hall of a yeshiva where one can hear the rebbe in more than one classroom would indicate the obvious differences between the trained one and the one who was not trained.
In a nutshell, the majority of expulsions are unwarranted, unnecessary, of little value to the yeshiva/school, and highly destructive (the Chazon Ish called it dinei nefashos) to the talmid. And for those cases where it needs to happen, the chiyuv is for the yeshiva to assist in the process of helping the talmid get into another yeshiva. This talmid is their child (ke’ilu yoldo), and that is a responsibility that is not relinquished with a flick of a pen. The youngster has his own din ve’cheshbon. Quite true. But we have ours, and shifting the blame to the child is unfair and wrong.
79
Jun 18, 2009 at 09:10 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Take a cold shower>? Maybe some of the people you deal with should take a cold shower. Calm them down a little bit before they go out clubbing.
Lets talk about my kids, and how I was raised. A man has a responsibility to himself, his family, his Kehilla, and Klal Yisroel.
If you choose yourself over all else then you are on your own and you are not part of this family, kehilla, and Klal Yisroel.
Please tell me who does need them? Why does Klal Yisroel need them. They turned their backs on us. When they want to come back thats fine but they have to deserve it. These people what do they do. They take their education and trash it. Everything is always someone elses fault. They are doing drugs to escape/ escape what. ( I am not talking about abused kids) The only abused kids I know are wonderful people. I do know plenty of spoiled rotten kids who do what ever they want drive fancy cars with unlimited credit cards that party do drugs and abuse alcohal/ most of them arent affected by the Kiddush club because they cant get to shul early enough for it. So again I just dont buy the article.So if CHV my kid turns out like that then he can enjoy making it in life without any of my help. I think the sidewalk is a better motivator than your never ending coddling. Life in America has made us all too soft. I guess we just think differently, you think we need to bring them back and I think they need to want to come back.
”
Please tell me you are not in chinuch or rabbanus.
80
Jun 18, 2009 at 09:10 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Take a cold shower>? Maybe some of the people you deal with should take a cold shower. Calm them down a little bit before they go out clubbing.
Lets talk about my kids, and how I was raised. A man has a responsibility to himself, his family, his Kehilla, and Klal Yisroel.
If you choose yourself over all else then you are on your own and you are not part of this family, kehilla, and Klal Yisroel.
Please tell me who does need them? Why does Klal Yisroel need them. They turned their backs on us. When they want to come back thats fine but they have to deserve it. These people what do they do. They take their education and trash it. Everything is always someone elses fault. They are doing drugs to escape/ escape what. ( I am not talking about abused kids) The only abused kids I know are wonderful people. I do know plenty of spoiled rotten kids who do what ever they want drive fancy cars with unlimited credit cards that party do drugs and abuse alcohal/ most of them arent affected by the Kiddush club because they cant get to shul early enough for it. So again I just dont buy the article.So if CHV my kid turns out like that then he can enjoy making it in life without any of my help. I think the sidewalk is a better motivator than your never ending coddling. Life in America has made us all too soft. I guess we just think differently, you think we need to bring them back and I think they need to want to come back.
”
I pity your children.
81
Jun 18, 2009 at 10:16 AM JR Says:
According to Dr. Abraham Twerski, "If any normal activity becomes dependent on alcohol, that is alcoholism, even if the person continues to function normally."
Ask older Russian Chabad Chassidim what kept them going in the Soviet Union when they took on the Evil Empire and kept Torah and mitzvos and promoted Torah and mitzvos at the risk to their lives. They will tell you FARBRENGENS. At these farbrengens, which took place as often as possible, could be a few times a week, prodigious amounts of alcohol were consumed. A farbrengen was synonymous with alcohol consumption.
So according to the Dr. these Chassidim were alcoholics.
Oh well.
These "alcoholics" preserved Yiddishkeit in Russia but if it were up to the eminent Dr. they would have had their bottles taken away from them and replaced with tea ..
82
Jun 18, 2009 at 11:24 AM Anonymous Says:
“ According to Dr. Abraham Twerski, "If any normal activity becomes dependent on alcohol, that is alcoholism, even if the person continues to function normally."
Ask older Russian Chabad Chassidim what kept them going in the Soviet Union when they took on the Evil Empire and kept Torah and mitzvos and promoted Torah and mitzvos at the risk to their lives. They will tell you FARBRENGENS. At these farbrengens, which took place as often as possible, could be a few times a week, prodigious amounts of alcohol were consumed. A farbrengen was synonymous with alcohol consumption.
So according to the Dr. these Chassidim were alcoholics.
Oh well.
These "alcoholics" preserved Yiddishkeit in Russia but if it were up to the eminent Dr. they would have had their bottles taken away from them and replaced with tea ..
”
You mean if they were sober they would have given up torah?
83
Jun 18, 2009 at 01:27 PM Ben Kochba Says:
To 79 and 80: No I am not in Rabbinate. And My children do not need your pity. If you want to know about them they are well adjusted and popular kids and are actually role models for others. I pity the children raised in a coddling home (please dont confuse coddling with Love). Again for those that seem to confuse good kids with bad.
Rabbi Twersky and I seem to be talking about two different types of Young Adults (YA from now on).
The "system" at least where I live is not some Gulag. Life is just not that hard. Yeshiva is boring... so what sit there for a few hours wait for English do well go to college and get a job. You want to blame Rebbes for being bad teachers again so what the kids aren’t being tortured. My Yeshiva had one of the most grueling schedules for teens. When I went to a top Yeshiva in Israel I felt I was on vacation because the hours and learning where less intense instead of more. I still did fine and I at the time did not appreciate learning Gemara at all.
So now we have a YA that wants to go to movies sports games and read books, I know for some circles that is like a ticket straight to Hell and for kids in that situation I really feel for them because there are plenty of streams of Judaism that they can fit into much more comfortably (I hope I understand the Rabbi when I say I fully support him in helping those types of kids feel part of the community and we need to do whatever we can especially from the top down saying that you can still be a good Jew if you go from Chassidish to Modern Orthodox (just an example).
Now you have the next level. Disruptive kids in the school, smoking, drinking, doing drugs, hanging out with girls, I fell that the YA decides to make a statement/ made a decision to lead this life in this corruptive manner,
I am OK with that and I am just being realistic enough to tell that person that you have made a choice to separate yourself from us so leave. Dont hang around in your mommies house and tell us how cool you are by doing drugs and giving up on Judaism because your rebbe was boring. Just leave go find out who you really are. Please dont "hang out" with us pretending to be part of Klal Yisreol when everything you do is in opposition to it.
When and if that person changes and decides to "become a Jew again" I have no problems accepting them. It is just the absolute duplicity I see with these YA who hang around our neighborhoods doing terrible things with this thin veneer of being Jewish,. There is nothing in their lives that has forced them off the Derech they have chosen their path.
So Rabbi again I disagree, I gave them no "Push" Klal Yisreol gave them no "Push" and maybe if they really do finally get a push out the door from their parents and are told go get a job and go to college and they have to pay rent on their own and hold down a job maybe that will really be better for them, even if they dont come back to us at least they can be upstanding people in their own right.
Rabbi, you seem to be dealing with YA that have major problems and Kol Hakovod for dealing with it, I just dont see it as all encompassing from my standpoint. (And I am not saying they dont exist) There are just to many YA out there that have no problems and just hide behind those that do.
So Rabbi we come back to the Kiddush Club. I can Drink my sons can drink my friends can drink their grandparents can drink and lo and behold no one is an alcoholic. No one abuses their wives. And I see them every day of my life.
You want to tell me that because we drink some kid might be unduly influenced which will lead him to lose all self control? I SAY NO WAY. That person will have a million other influences and nothing I or my friends do will change that,
Rabbi, what I find more realistic, is that my sons and their friends will see respected members of their community who believe in Klal Yisroel, who are able to properly enjoy a L Chaim, and not abuse the privilege. And they will grow and learn from us that this is the right way to do something, and even though Judaism is difficult and asks a lot we can balance our lives. I think this scenario is much more plausible being that I am that person. So please leave my L Chaim alone.
84
Jun 18, 2009 at 01:58 PM Sambo Says:
# 77
My kids are 30, 29, 26 y.o. now b"h
But they were allowed a drink as desired on Shabbos with parents looking on, even in their early teens. They learned it's an acquired taste, that it can give you heartburn, that it's sometimes tingly (like the 3rd cup at a Seder)....
No biggie, really.
Let's not put the blame for our assimilation into society at large on the Klubs...the fact that so many young men are on kollel/welfare when society can no longer support them, but they expect in-laws & parents to get extra jobs so they can learn 5 yrs after marriage has NO precedent in Europe or even the US until a generation ago.
No derech eretz, no kibbud av v'em, just entitlement/selfishness--just like secular society. Nothing to do w/Judaism.
But let's blame the l'chaim clubs...
85
Jun 18, 2009 at 02:46 PM Anonymous Says:
“ To 79 and 80: No I am not in Rabbinate. And My children do not need your pity. If you want to know about them they are well adjusted and popular kids and are actually role models for others. I pity the children raised in a coddling home (please dont confuse coddling with Love). Again for those that seem to confuse good kids with bad.
Rabbi Twersky and I seem to be talking about two different types of Young Adults (YA from now on).
The "system" at least where I live is not some Gulag. Life is just not that hard. Yeshiva is boring... so what sit there for a few hours wait for English do well go to college and get a job. You want to blame Rebbes for being bad teachers again so what the kids aren’t being tortured. My Yeshiva had one of the most grueling schedules for teens. When I went to a top Yeshiva in Israel I felt I was on vacation because the hours and learning where less intense instead of more. I still did fine and I at the time did not appreciate learning Gemara at all.
So now we have a YA that wants to go to movies sports games and read books, I know for some circles that is like a ticket straight to Hell and for kids in that situation I really feel for them because there are plenty of streams of Judaism that they can fit into much more comfortably (I hope I understand the Rabbi when I say I fully support him in helping those types of kids feel part of the community and we need to do whatever we can especially from the top down saying that you can still be a good Jew if you go from Chassidish to Modern Orthodox (just an example).
Now you have the next level. Disruptive kids in the school, smoking, drinking, doing drugs, hanging out with girls, I fell that the YA decides to make a statement/ made a decision to lead this life in this corruptive manner,
I am OK with that and I am just being realistic enough to tell that person that you have made a choice to separate yourself from us so leave. Dont hang around in your mommies house and tell us how cool you are by doing drugs and giving up on Judaism because your rebbe was boring. Just leave go find out who you really are. Please dont "hang out" with us pretending to be part of Klal Yisreol when everything you do is in opposition to it.
When and if that person changes and decides to "become a Jew again" I have no problems accepting them. It is just the absolute duplicity I see with these YA who hang around our neighborhoods doing terrible things with this thin veneer of being Jewish,. There is nothing in their lives that has forced them off the Derech they have chosen their path.
So Rabbi again I disagree, I gave them no "Push" Klal Yisreol gave them no "Push" and maybe if they really do finally get a push out the door from their parents and are told go get a job and go to college and they have to pay rent on their own and hold down a job maybe that will really be better for them, even if they dont come back to us at least they can be upstanding people in their own right.
Rabbi, you seem to be dealing with YA that have major problems and Kol Hakovod for dealing with it, I just dont see it as all encompassing from my standpoint. (And I am not saying they dont exist) There are just to many YA out there that have no problems and just hide behind those that do.
So Rabbi we come back to the Kiddush Club. I can Drink my sons can drink my friends can drink their grandparents can drink and lo and behold no one is an alcoholic. No one abuses their wives. And I see them every day of my life.
You want to tell me that because we drink some kid might be unduly influenced which will lead him to lose all self control? I SAY NO WAY. That person will have a million other influences and nothing I or my friends do will change that,
Rabbi, what I find more realistic, is that my sons and their friends will see respected members of their community who believe in Klal Yisroel, who are able to properly enjoy a L Chaim, and not abuse the privilege. And they will grow and learn from us that this is the right way to do something, and even though Judaism is difficult and asks a lot we can balance our lives. I think this scenario is much more plausible being that I am that person. So please leave my L Chaim alone.
”
Nice drasha. I know you don't mind that I went out for a drink (of diet coke) and scrolled down to the bottom without reading it because you take even greater liberty when your rabbi is giving his drasha.
I really hope no 'at risk' teenagers read it and think that c"v there are more thana few pompous self-rightous hot air baloons like you in the frum world.
If your family is so perfect use your good fortune to help others instead of sitting back and lkecturing others who don't have it so easy.
86
Jun 18, 2009 at 07:10 PM Ben Kochba Says:
Enjoy your diet coke.
I hope many "At Risk' Teens read it and let their inflated egos of self worth be punctured. Let it shed some reality into their mommy sheilded lives that whatever they do is just peachy.
My family and my fortune do go to help others. And I will lecture whomever I please.
PS I make in for the Rav's Drasha, anf the Haftorah thank you.
87
Jun 18, 2009 at 08:43 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Enjoy your diet coke.
I hope many "At Risk' Teens read it and let their inflated egos of self worth be punctured. Let it shed some reality into their mommy sheilded lives that whatever they do is just peachy.
My family and my fortune do go to help others. And I will lecture whomever I please.
PS I make in for the Rav's Drasha, anf the Haftorah thank you. ”
Oh. So you 'only' miss part of krias hatorah and then come back into shul to hear the rabbi's drasha after you have used your favorite drug to dull your senses, but want to lecture to teenagers who look to do the same with their own drug of choice, which usually starts out being the veryone you encourage others to consume during davening.
How holy of you.
88
Jun 21, 2009 at 08:05 AM Milhouse Says:
“ Oh. So you 'only' miss part of krias hatorah and then come back into shul to hear the rabbi's drasha after you have used your favorite drug to dull your senses, but want to lecture to teenagers who look to do the same with their own drug of choice, which usually starts out being the veryone you encourage others to consume during davening.
How holy of you. ”
What makes you think he misses any part of krias hatorah?
89
Jun 21, 2009 at 08:01 AM Milhouse Says:
“ How old are they? In the US isn't it illegal to drink alcohol under 21? ”
So what?