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Tel Aviv - Mom Gives Birth to 18th Child in 21 Years

Published on: June 18, 2009 09:41 AM
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Tel Aviv, Israel - An Israeli woman in her mid-40’s has given birth to her 18th child in 21 years, accumulating a combined total of 14 years pregnancy, and she and her husband are planning their 19th.

The ultra-Orthodox couple have 12 boys and six girls. The most recent was born yesterday, one week after the oldest child celebrated her 21st birthday.

“I cannot say I was as moved as I was with the first child, but each baby brings with it its own excitement and blessing,” the woman explained.

She said, perhaps not surprisingly, that since she has been visiting the delivery room at Kaplan hospital, in the city of Rehovot, for 21 years, “I feel part of the staff.”

Ultra-Orthodox Jews regard birth control as a sin.



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1

 Jun 18, 2009 at 08:44 AM ML Says:

"Ultra-Orthodox Jews regard birth control as a sin" That is not 100% true. some do and most do not.

2

 Jun 18, 2009 at 09:01 AM ezkay Says:

is she going to be the book of world records for the most children a lady ever had

3

 Jun 18, 2009 at 09:01 AM Anonymous Says:

How can they afford to support all these kids? Any plans for a reality tv series like the Duggars(who also have 18 children) or like John and Kate Plus 8? I heard that the John &Kate get $75,000 per weekly tv episode, and made something like $10 million from the show. Let's see if Nadia Suleman makes plenty from a reality tv show.

4

 Jun 18, 2009 at 09:01 AM Anonymous Says:

I would like to know what they live on?

5

 Jun 18, 2009 at 09:00 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
ML Says:

"Ultra-Orthodox Jews regard birth control as a sin" That is not 100% true. some do and most do not.

if there is no special circumstances and without a heter from a rov it is assur! and MAZEL TOV! may they see only nachas from all their children!

6

 Jun 18, 2009 at 08:59 AM s Says:

Mazal Tov !

7

 Jun 18, 2009 at 08:58 AM ultra orthodox Says:

I view having more kids then u can handle a sin...

8

 Jun 18, 2009 at 08:53 AM Anonymous Says:

There has to be some limits. Hashem did not create women as "baby machines". This woman has spent half of her adult life in pregnancy. Who is taking care of the other 17 children since I suspect the father is sitting in a bes medrash somewhere learning. Who is supporting these yinglach. Hopefully, this family is an exception and they have a good parnassah but the statistics don't lie. The large percentage of "large" orthodox families in EY (6 children and over) are receiving some level of government welfare.

9

 Jun 18, 2009 at 08:51 AM Anonymous Says:

Mazel Tov! Iy'h By all of us

10

 Jun 18, 2009 at 08:50 AM Anonymous Says:

Was the line about birth control necessary? It sounds like Parohs complaint about the Bnei Yisroel having too many children!

11

 Jun 18, 2009 at 08:49 AM Dag Says:

What does "planning their 19th" mean?

12

 Jun 18, 2009 at 09:24 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

There has to be some limits. Hashem did not create women as "baby machines". This woman has spent half of her adult life in pregnancy. Who is taking care of the other 17 children since I suspect the father is sitting in a bes medrash somewhere learning. Who is supporting these yinglach. Hopefully, this family is an exception and they have a good parnassah but the statistics don't lie. The large percentage of "large" orthodox families in EY (6 children and over) are receiving some level of government welfare.

Plenty of people feel healthy enough during pregnancy to take care of a household

13

 Jun 18, 2009 at 09:20 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #7  
ultra orthodox Says:

I view having more kids then u can handle a sin...

who says they cant handle it? I have a feeling she is doing just fine.

14

 Jun 18, 2009 at 09:18 AM Anonymous Says:

reply to #11 you must not be married

15

 Jun 18, 2009 at 09:16 AM Anonymous Says:

How do two parents manage to support so many children and give each one sufficient time and attention?

16

 Jun 18, 2009 at 09:15 AM My kids mom Says:

Birth Control is not a sin when used correctly, meaning with a rav's consent. I think people have to remember that there is more to having babies then making big numbers! You have to actually be able to be a mother to all these children and that's the most important thing to keep in mind! If she's able to do that then hats off to her!

17

 Jun 18, 2009 at 09:15 AM Rebbele Says:

They should be an example for the Jewish Nation. and #5 is correct.
By and large I have seen the children of large families are more caring and take more responsibilty and less demanding then that of small families.
Hashem is our strength and certainly gives each one the Koichos to fulfill his/her shlichus in this world. May they have a lot of nachas from all their children.

18

 Jun 18, 2009 at 09:14 AM Anonymous Says:


I dont see the big chiddush here..

Take a look in willi or KJ or even BP or Meah Shearim. There are a nice amount af families with 18 children bla"h...

19

 Jun 18, 2009 at 09:12 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #7  
ultra orthodox Says:

I view having more kids then u can handle a sin...

She can handle those kids BH and she does. And if she can handle more, as it seems she can, ken yirbu.

20

 Jun 18, 2009 at 09:12 AM rabbi j Says:

Reply to #7  
ultra orthodox Says:

I view having more kids then u can handle a sin...

I'm an ultra orthodox chassidish satmar young mother. I used to work in an office with women from several walks of life. I can only tell you this much: I have less to complain on my husband than most of my workmates. On the contrary. I am respected for being what I am: a woman. I am not expected in any way to be what I am not: a man. If you think that heimishe ladies feel like garbage because they're stay at home moms think again. We have an internal happiness that career moms can never have because we're living life according to the natures of women

21

 Jun 18, 2009 at 09:11 AM rabbi j Says:

tuition is the best birth control

22

 Jun 18, 2009 at 09:07 AM Anonymous Says:

VIN, don't you know that bouchrim and bopys read these articles so why are you writting about B C thins they don't need to know about!!

23

 Jun 18, 2009 at 09:04 AM Happy man Says:

as long she can handle tham and the children isn't being neglected.

24

 Jun 18, 2009 at 09:03 AM Anonymous Says:

All this sensation that the media likes to make.
During the Holocaust when a mothers with 18 childern where gassed and burned, nobody found it newsworthy.

25

 Jun 18, 2009 at 09:41 AM SimchaB Says:

To all you economic worrywarts out there, Chazal say nolad tinok v'kikaro imo - a boy is born & his loaf (sustenance) is with him.

26

 Jun 18, 2009 at 09:38 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

There has to be some limits. Hashem did not create women as "baby machines". This woman has spent half of her adult life in pregnancy. Who is taking care of the other 17 children since I suspect the father is sitting in a bes medrash somewhere learning. Who is supporting these yinglach. Hopefully, this family is an exception and they have a good parnassah but the statistics don't lie. The large percentage of "large" orthodox families in EY (6 children and over) are receiving some level of government welfare.

Limits are set al pi torah laymen like us can not set the limits.

27

 Jun 18, 2009 at 09:37 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #7  
ultra orthodox Says:

I view having more kids then u can handle a sin...

If a person cannot cope there are ways to get a hetter to stop having children,
but if you can raise them properly with G-ds help, then it IS a sin to prevent their birth.

28

 Jun 18, 2009 at 09:01 AM Anonymous Says:

I'm sure there will be a number of postings saying how wonderful it is to have so many babies, and that hashem will somehow provide for their support. The reality, though, is that each year, the ultra-orthodox demand more and more money from the government to provide subsidies to these families. We have had this debate on VIN many times but the bottom line seems to be that some believe that women should continue having as many children as they are physically capable of bearing and not to worry about thier upbringing and how to pay for them.

29

 Jun 18, 2009 at 10:14 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #25  
SimchaB Says:

To all you economic worrywarts out there, Chazal say nolad tinok v'kikaro imo - a boy is born & his loaf (sustenance) is with him.

So are you saying that there is no need for child care allowances, vouchers, section 8, medicaid, food stamps, etc?

30

 Jun 18, 2009 at 10:52 AM therese always somone Says:

I know this family personally they are a very nice family and are highly respected in their community all the kids are very well behaved and the parents are the most amazing people even with all the kids who they do a wonderful job raising they are still always busy with chesed and will drop whatever their soing to help another yid

31

 Jun 18, 2009 at 10:50 AM Anonymous Says:

ultra orthodox jews do not consider birth control a sin.
today you can get a heter very easily.... i am ultra orthodox and have many relatives who are really chassidish and they are using birth control.

I'm not talking about this specific family....but if there are people out there who can not handle having a baby every year...then for the sake of their shalom bayis and their children and their sanity...they should seek a heter.
and when speaking to the rav be very clear as to why you feel that you need one...so that they give you one right away and for the length of time needed. if one rav doesn't feel it neccesary then get another rav that will give you one.

you know your abilities....

32

 Jun 18, 2009 at 10:57 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #25  
SimchaB Says:

To all you economic worrywarts out there, Chazal say nolad tinok v'kikaro imo - a boy is born & his loaf (sustenance) is with him.

That is vonderful news...you are saying the medinah has been wasting money on all these bochurim whose parents get stipends to pay for their support since they are already supplied by hashem "with sustenance". What a hypocrite you are...taking money for welfare when hashem has already provided for these children (at least the boys).

33

 Jun 18, 2009 at 10:50 AM Boruch Says:

Reply to #28  
Anonymous Says:

I'm sure there will be a number of postings saying how wonderful it is to have so many babies, and that hashem will somehow provide for their support. The reality, though, is that each year, the ultra-orthodox demand more and more money from the government to provide subsidies to these families. We have had this debate on VIN many times but the bottom line seems to be that some believe that women should continue having as many children as they are physically capable of bearing and not to worry about thier upbringing and how to pay for them.

I think we should separate the issue of parents getting government support for having a lot of children from getting support for not intending to work. I have some reservations on people staying in kollel forever and not intending to give back in a tangible way back to the community (even if as a Rabbi or teacher). But we should all encourage and support people having more children. The more children people have the more the economy is stimulated, and the more jobs are created and more money is made. Yes, some people abuse the system, but that is where you need fixing, not on the amount of children they have. If you know someone with a large family, whose father is working (by the time they have a large family its probably about time for the father to "go out"), you should consider giving some of your maasser to them.

34

 Jun 18, 2009 at 10:49 AM Mazel Tov! Says:

Reply to #28  
Anonymous Says:

I'm sure there will be a number of postings saying how wonderful it is to have so many babies, and that hashem will somehow provide for their support. The reality, though, is that each year, the ultra-orthodox demand more and more money from the government to provide subsidies to these families. We have had this debate on VIN many times but the bottom line seems to be that some believe that women should continue having as many children as they are physically capable of bearing and not to worry about thier upbringing and how to pay for them.

Actually there's a number of posting based on american hashkafah rather than Jewish hashkafah!
How about Mazal Tov?

35

 Jun 18, 2009 at 10:48 AM Anonymous Says:

Economically it is better for a government for folks to have lots and lots of children. Because people are a natural resource (which is why Stalin gave incentives for women to have many babies in Communist Russia). Here in the USA, part of the reason why Social Security and Medicaid will be defunct soon is that Americans carefully budget for their babies and don't have many of them -- which means our workforce will not be able to ensure enough income to support our elderly. And withing Israel, it is vitally important the large numbers of kids, cuz the only population growing as fast as the Chareidim are the Arabs. If you guys have your way and limit the Chareidi babies births, guess what -- there will be twenty Arabs to every Jew within a couple of years. Not very smart planning.
Pru U'Revu -- Umalah Ha'Aretz.

36

 Jun 18, 2009 at 10:41 AM Anonymous Says:

There is no indication anywhere that they are less then examplary parents of happy and attended to children. Why do people assume otherwise. Especially as the anti charedi press could not find something negative to say which you know they would love to do. Why does it have to be commenters on a frum web site to complain about a wondeful fmily that is so blessed with children.

I know of families larger than this that are well adjusted and do not find the concept difficult to believe.

37

 Jun 18, 2009 at 11:00 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #31  
Anonymous Says:

ultra orthodox jews do not consider birth control a sin.
today you can get a heter very easily.... i am ultra orthodox and have many relatives who are really chassidish and they are using birth control.

I'm not talking about this specific family....but if there are people out there who can not handle having a baby every year...then for the sake of their shalom bayis and their children and their sanity...they should seek a heter.
and when speaking to the rav be very clear as to why you feel that you need one...so that they give you one right away and for the length of time needed. if one rav doesn't feel it neccesary then get another rav that will give you one.

you know your abilities....

Posek shopping is not permitted since in effect you become the Posek and not the Rav. One should designate a Rav or community within the Torah World and direct ALL your shailos on Family Matters to its Posek

38

 Jun 18, 2009 at 10:34 AM Raphael Kaufman Says:

Reply to #22  
Anonymous Says:

VIN, don't you know that bouchrim and bopys read these articles so why are you writting about B C thins they don't need to know about!!

What is it that they don't need to know about? That mothers have babies? I agree! Let the "bouchrim" think that babies are delivered by UPS.

39

 Jun 18, 2009 at 11:07 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #33  
Boruch Says:

I think we should separate the issue of parents getting government support for having a lot of children from getting support for not intending to work. I have some reservations on people staying in kollel forever and not intending to give back in a tangible way back to the community (even if as a Rabbi or teacher). But we should all encourage and support people having more children. The more children people have the more the economy is stimulated, and the more jobs are created and more money is made. Yes, some people abuse the system, but that is where you need fixing, not on the amount of children they have. If you know someone with a large family, whose father is working (by the time they have a large family its probably about time for the father to "go out"), you should consider giving some of your maasser to them.

How can you separate the issue of large families and welfare unless the parents having all these kids say that they will no longer accept government money. Otherwise, these naresh comments about all these kids "stimulating the economy" is rubbish. Please explain how sitting in the yeshiva learning creates jobs or adds to EY's gross domestic product. While you may believe in learning torah l'shma, please don't suggest that doing so while having children you cannot afford to feed somehow is good for the medinah.

40

 Jun 18, 2009 at 11:15 AM Anonymous Says:

Mazel tov! Children are the guarantors of the Torah and as such, Israel and the whole Jewish people should support them physically and their Torah study. Unless necessary for the mother's health, birth control is not sanctioned by the Torah , which views children as a blessing from G-d. Judaism believes that all success coms from G-d and G-d commanded us to be fruitful and multiply.

41

 Jun 18, 2009 at 11:11 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #31  
Anonymous Says:

ultra orthodox jews do not consider birth control a sin.
today you can get a heter very easily.... i am ultra orthodox and have many relatives who are really chassidish and they are using birth control.

I'm not talking about this specific family....but if there are people out there who can not handle having a baby every year...then for the sake of their shalom bayis and their children and their sanity...they should seek a heter.
and when speaking to the rav be very clear as to why you feel that you need one...so that they give you one right away and for the length of time needed. if one rav doesn't feel it neccesary then get another rav that will give you one.

you know your abilities....

"if one rav doesn't feel it neccesary then get another rav that will give you one.

you know your abilities"

No G-d fearing person in his right mind would go Rav-hopping, to get his way.

You're a hypocrite!

42

 Jun 18, 2009 at 10:16 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

if there is no special circumstances and without a heter from a rov it is assur! and MAZEL TOV! may they see only nachas from all their children!

Today the rabunim only take money to support their own large families. Golum!

43

 Jun 18, 2009 at 10:10 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

How can they afford to support all these kids? Any plans for a reality tv series like the Duggars(who also have 18 children) or like John and Kate Plus 8? I heard that the John &Kate get $75,000 per weekly tv episode, and made something like $10 million from the show. Let's see if Nadia Suleman makes plenty from a reality tv show.

Israel isn't as superficial as we americans are. I doubt we'd see a reality series on it.

to commenter #7 (rabbi j): kudos to you!!!

44

 Jun 18, 2009 at 10:10 AM Anonymous Says:

"Take a look in willi or KJ or even BP or Meah Shearim. There are a nice amount af families with 18 children bla"h..."

Not quite. Perhaps there may be enough with 6 or 8 children, however very few frum women have more than 10 children.

45

 Jun 18, 2009 at 11:23 AM tzoorba Says:

Reply to #39  
Anonymous Says:

How can you separate the issue of large families and welfare unless the parents having all these kids say that they will no longer accept government money. Otherwise, these naresh comments about all these kids "stimulating the economy" is rubbish. Please explain how sitting in the yeshiva learning creates jobs or adds to EY's gross domestic product. While you may believe in learning torah l'shma, please don't suggest that doing so while having children you cannot afford to feed somehow is good for the medinah.

You are effectively advocating the denial of children to be born in the world due to financial considerations.

The talmud says bo zochor, bo kikro imo. Hashem provides for each child that is born. If it means that the rest of the population has to pitch in, that is a privilege conferred on them.

All the people that talk about things delaying Moshiach should know that the Gemora says that ain ben dovid ba ad sheyichlu col haneshomos shebeguf. Moshiach won't come until all the children that are supposed to be born have been born.

46

 Jun 18, 2009 at 10:10 AM Anonymous Says:

We have been blessed with 4 kids & B"H expecting our fifth.
They are quite close in age. This is worlds greatest blessing. We are not rich but we live with out luxary. Our kids are happy & well adjusted and doing well in school. Is it hard? Yes - children are not easy and we have to work to rais them. When I look at each one of my kids I see how each one brought blessing and joy in there own special way.
Im sure this mother of 18 looks at each one of her children in that way. Its not another baby - its a child and neshomah. And who said she is unhappy & misrable and nebach on the kids - im sure she is happy and a great mother.

I know of someone that was brought up in a family of 17 children - it was not easy - they are all the most amazing kids - today each one of the men are big Rabbi's in diff. communities.

47

 Jun 18, 2009 at 10:02 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #28  
Anonymous Says:

I'm sure there will be a number of postings saying how wonderful it is to have so many babies, and that hashem will somehow provide for their support. The reality, though, is that each year, the ultra-orthodox demand more and more money from the government to provide subsidies to these families. We have had this debate on VIN many times but the bottom line seems to be that some believe that women should continue having as many children as they are physically capable of bearing and not to worry about thier upbringing and how to pay for them.

Yes there will be those poste and rightfully so, how can we tell G-D what to do and not do, yes at every siyum mesechte you read all the many names of the sons of rav pupa (without mentoning the many daughters he had) yes the rambam says that u have to keep having kids even when u r older, and all these people that can't afford it the almighty can and will maneuver you shouldn't be able to afford evn one or two if he wants to, so why be so stupid and think that we do something in this world learn a little chovos halvuvos etc. Every poster here says his feeling but why not ppodt the torahs veiws and feelings

48

 Jun 18, 2009 at 10:00 AM Anonymous Says:

were will they find a name? kol hakovod to her husband! also with such big kids her older ones can take charge

49

 Jun 18, 2009 at 09:48 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #22  
Anonymous Says:

VIN, don't you know that bouchrim and bopys read these articles so why are you writting about B C thins they don't need to know about!!

yeah afterall they have "no idea" (wink wink wink) about these things. you have your head in the ground so lemme ask you, how's the view?

50

 Jun 18, 2009 at 09:45 AM Who Cares! Says:

Reply to #7  
ultra orthodox Says:

I view having more kids then u can handle a sin...

When we want your opinion we'll beat it out of you but till then.....

51

 Jun 18, 2009 at 12:20 PM Goomba Says:

There is no doubt that some of the 18 kids are gonna result with psychological traumas, same like only children always have. Sociologically speaking only lower cultural level classes have these large amounts of children, never academics, intellectuals or grads of higher education. See stats.

52

 Jun 18, 2009 at 12:19 PM yeshiva bochur Says:

Reply to #38  
Raphael Kaufman Says:

What is it that they don't need to know about? That mothers have babies? I agree! Let the "bouchrim" think that babies are delivered by UPS.

What???????? A baby is by UPS????? you can see in gemara this is NOT TRUE!!!! Sheker gamur.

53

 Jun 18, 2009 at 12:14 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

Mazel Tov! Iy'h By all of us

Don't incudle all of us when it comes to having 18 kids

54

 Jun 18, 2009 at 11:58 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #44  
Anonymous Says:

"Take a look in willi or KJ or even BP or Meah Shearim. There are a nice amount af families with 18 children bla"h..."

Not quite. Perhaps there may be enough with 6 or 8 children, however very few frum women have more than 10 children.

You do not know what you are talking about.

55

 Jun 18, 2009 at 11:50 AM Anonymous Says:

The only people who regard birth control as a sin are Catholics. It is not a Jewish view at all. Lehavdil

56

 Jun 18, 2009 at 11:42 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #45  
tzoorba Says:

You are effectively advocating the denial of children to be born in the world due to financial considerations.

The talmud says bo zochor, bo kikro imo. Hashem provides for each child that is born. If it means that the rest of the population has to pitch in, that is a privilege conferred on them.

All the people that talk about things delaying Moshiach should know that the Gemora says that ain ben dovid ba ad sheyichlu col haneshomos shebeguf. Moshiach won't come until all the children that are supposed to be born have been born.

If Moshiach won't come until after "all the children that will be born, have been born," are you saying that post-moishiach we will no longer be able to have any more children...that is the most naresh post of the day. All women will not suddenly become childless when moishiach bist vil cumen...

57

 Jun 18, 2009 at 12:54 PM a yid Says:

Reply to #7  
ultra orthodox Says:

I view having more kids then u can handle a sin...

i guess u can't even handle other people's kids..

58

 Jun 18, 2009 at 01:06 PM a yid Says:

Reply to #51  
Goomba Says:

There is no doubt that some of the 18 kids are gonna result with psychological traumas, same like only children always have. Sociologically speaking only lower cultural level classes have these large amounts of children, never academics, intellectuals or grads of higher education. See stats.

exactly because these stat people only know how to help society in theory

59

 Jun 18, 2009 at 01:43 PM Miss Williamsburg Says:

Reply to #22  
Anonymous Says:

VIN, don't you know that bouchrim and bopys read these articles so why are you writting about B C thins they don't need to know about!!

If bochurim and boys are reading this, then it means they are on the internet and thus have access to much worse things than knowing about having babies and birth control. What's wrong with bochurim and boys knowing that in the first place anyway? It's spelled out in various parts of the Torah.

60

 Jun 18, 2009 at 01:35 PM sweetheart Says:

Reply to #2  
ezkay Says:

is she going to be the book of world records for the most children a lady ever had

Actually i'm a close neighbor of someone who is one of twenty two siblings. Her mom was interviewed in 2 jewish mag recently. Pru urvu, vayatzmu bimoid meoid.

61

 Jun 18, 2009 at 01:41 PM Miss Williamsburg Says:

Reply to #18  
Anonymous Says:


I dont see the big chiddush here..

Take a look in willi or KJ or even BP or Meah Shearim. There are a nice amount af families with 18 children bla"h...

You are quite wrong. In the previous generation perhaps I can find a few families who had 15 children but the now 35-45 year olds and younger do not have that many children.
I live in Williamsburg and do not know of even one family in the above mentioned age range who have more than 9-10 children. Average I would say is 5-10 kids for most families today. People today and Rabbonim are more open minded about Birth Control.
I agree with poster #55. Birth Control is a sin according to Catholics, not Jews.

62

 Jun 18, 2009 at 01:40 PM moish Says:

Reply to #56  
Anonymous Says:

If Moshiach won't come until after "all the children that will be born, have been born," are you saying that post-moishiach we will no longer be able to have any more children...that is the most naresh post of the day. All women will not suddenly become childless when moishiach bist vil cumen...

after moshiach comes there will only be gilgulim, no new neshomos [and if you don't understand chazal say you don't understand, don't call it narish c''v].

63

 Jun 18, 2009 at 02:40 PM Anonymous Says:

Wow! 62 comments about the family issues of people we don't know in six hours.

YENTAS. NISHTFARGINERS.

64

 Jun 18, 2009 at 02:13 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
Anonymous Says:

Plenty of people feel healthy enough during pregnancy to take care of a household

and more people than that have it very hard-been there, doin that

65

 Jun 18, 2009 at 01:48 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #51  
Goomba Says:

There is no doubt that some of the 18 kids are gonna result with psychological traumas, same like only children always have. Sociologically speaking only lower cultural level classes have these large amounts of children, never academics, intellectuals or grads of higher education. See stats.

keep your curses to your self! I hope all your children come out OK evwn though you dont wish that on the next guy.....

66

 Jun 18, 2009 at 02:58 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #51  
Goomba Says:

There is no doubt that some of the 18 kids are gonna result with psychological traumas, same like only children always have. Sociologically speaking only lower cultural level classes have these large amounts of children, never academics, intellectuals or grads of higher education. See stats.

If I had known that having 18 kids would prevent all of my children and grandchildren ledorai doros from becoming academics, intellectuals or members of higher cultural levels like you, like you, I'd have started earlier, had 18, and then a couple more, just to be on the safe side.

67

 Jun 18, 2009 at 04:28 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #51  
Goomba Says:

There is no doubt that some of the 18 kids are gonna result with psychological traumas, same like only children always have. Sociologically speaking only lower cultural level classes have these large amounts of children, never academics, intellectuals or grads of higher education. See stats.

Hey Goombah, keep your sociology where it belongs, in a book. I am 1 of 12 and my wife is 1 of 14 children. Of our 24 siblings there are 1 doctor, 1 lawyer, 6 business owners, 4 well known rabbonim and an assortment of kollel or working people. All seem very well adjusted and happy, and we all have large families as well. I dont think it makes any sense to try and compare yiddishe families with yiddishe ideals to general population.

68

 Jun 18, 2009 at 04:21 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #7  
ultra orthodox Says:

I view having more kids then u can handle a sin...

You view having too many kids a sin? Are you writing a new Torah? You wouldn't be the first, you would join prestigious groups like the Catholic Church, Reform Jews etc.

I understand people looking for a heter because they feel that they cant handle it, but to bash people that do the right thing, with full knowledge of how difficult it is to have so many children, is horrible from religious and simple human points of view.

69

 Jun 18, 2009 at 04:13 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to 61
If you are still a Miss, what business do you have commenting on issues like birth control. These are things which are discussed prior to marriage in kalle classes. Procreation is not a subject for you untill it's your turn. I don't know how old you are, but if you are over 18, I wish you hatzlacha in finding your zivug. Till then, don't meddle in married people's issues!

70

 Jun 18, 2009 at 04:49 PM Baldover Says:

The fact that a woman can carry and give birth to 18 (or more) children doesn't mean that you have to do it. A car can be driven at 160 m.p.h. and still very few use that speed, right?Isn't our body made in form and image of Hashem? Abusing your G-d given body (as a woman) is as bad as tattoos, piercings or flagelations. Of course, ignoramuses don't know it, they just take the pru irbu rule because it rhymes so nicely....

71

 Jun 18, 2009 at 05:01 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
Anonymous Says:

I would like to know what they live on?

Why is it your business? Hashem is the provider of parnassa. The husband is past Yeshiva age and probably has a good income.

72

 Jun 18, 2009 at 05:09 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #15  
Anonymous Says:

How do two parents manage to support so many children and give each one sufficient time and attention?

By not being consumed with "career" By not having television. by the simple math of the oldest ones needing less of it because they are treated as adults for having achieved Bar Mitzvah age.

73

 Jun 18, 2009 at 05:06 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

There has to be some limits. Hashem did not create women as "baby machines". This woman has spent half of her adult life in pregnancy. Who is taking care of the other 17 children since I suspect the father is sitting in a bes medrash somewhere learning. Who is supporting these yinglach. Hopefully, this family is an exception and they have a good parnassah but the statistics don't lie. The large percentage of "large" orthodox families in EY (6 children and over) are receiving some level of government welfare.

Uh, well, yes, actually He did create us that way. What, He can't limit what He started? How arrogant to sit in judgment of HKBH. May He have mercy on your soul.
Here in Israel the older kids aren't off at the mall prolonging their childhoods past Bar Mitzvah age. They help with the little one. Why assume the father is sitting someplace in a beit midrash? Older men do NOT get a stipend. "Who is supporting these yinglach?" Hashem. Statistics DO lie. That's all they do.

74

 Jun 18, 2009 at 05:32 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #72  
Anonymous Says:

By not being consumed with "career" By not having television. by the simple math of the oldest ones needing less of it because they are treated as adults for having achieved Bar Mitzvah age.

Someone in that family better be "consumed with career" to feed, clothe and house a family of that size. As for the bar mitzvah aged boys, it sounds like you haven't had adolescents and young teens. While they don't need to be spoon fed or diapers changed, many adolescents and teens often need a lot of time and attention.

75

 Jun 18, 2009 at 05:30 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #70  
Baldover Says:

The fact that a woman can carry and give birth to 18 (or more) children doesn't mean that you have to do it. A car can be driven at 160 m.p.h. and still very few use that speed, right?Isn't our body made in form and image of Hashem? Abusing your G-d given body (as a woman) is as bad as tattoos, piercings or flagelations. Of course, ignoramuses don't know it, they just take the pru irbu rule because it rhymes so nicely....

Again with telling Hashem what and what not He's capable of doing? It's not abuse if HKBH created it to do such a thing and if He allows it in an individual case. News flash! It's not YOUR body, it's only on loan from it's maker to house the real you, your neshama.

76

 Jun 18, 2009 at 05:26 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #69  
Anonymous Says:

Reply to 61
If you are still a Miss, what business do you have commenting on issues like birth control. These are things which are discussed prior to marriage in kalle classes. Procreation is not a subject for you untill it's your turn. I don't know how old you are, but if you are over 18, I wish you hatzlacha in finding your zivug. Till then, don't meddle in married people's issues!

Wow! what if she's studying to be a nurse and/or midwife or Gasp! the horror of it, a doctor? I hope your GYN understands these thing even if s/he isn't married yet.

77

 Jun 18, 2009 at 05:25 PM tzoorba Says:

Reply to #56  
Anonymous Says:

If Moshiach won't come until after "all the children that will be born, have been born," are you saying that post-moishiach we will no longer be able to have any more children...that is the most naresh post of the day. All women will not suddenly become childless when moishiach bist vil cumen...

No and how do you learn pshat in the gemora?

It means that a certain amount will have to be born. It doesn't say that none will be born afterwards

78

 Jun 18, 2009 at 05:19 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #51  
Goomba Says:

There is no doubt that some of the 18 kids are gonna result with psychological traumas, same like only children always have. Sociologically speaking only lower cultural level classes have these large amounts of children, never academics, intellectuals or grads of higher education. See stats.

Stats lie. They are a tool to deceive the gullible and to subject their minds to what the statistics user wants them to believe.
Johann Sebastian Bach had 22 Children, all of them accomplished, several almost equal to their father in musical ability.

79

 Jun 18, 2009 at 07:36 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #38  
Raphael Kaufman Says:

What is it that they don't need to know about? That mothers have babies? I agree! Let the "bouchrim" think that babies are delivered by UPS.

Having children is a blessing. Almost all these comments are bashing having a family or at least a large family. I know plenty of people out there who are waiting and waiting for their turn to have a child. I know cuz I'm one of them. Please recognize the bracha it is to have a child, and obviously support and care comes along with it. I daven to Hashem everyday for my husband and I to have a healthy child... birth control is the last thing on our minds right now. Mazel Tov to the parents of the child! May they have a lot of nachas from all of their children.

80

 Jun 18, 2009 at 07:30 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #38  
Raphael Kaufman Says:

What is it that they don't need to know about? That mothers have babies? I agree! Let the "bouchrim" think that babies are delivered by UPS.

Something tells me they won't be doing any tv shows...

81

 Jun 18, 2009 at 07:23 PM ZR Says:

Reply to #56  
Anonymous Says:

If Moshiach won't come until after "all the children that will be born, have been born," are you saying that post-moishiach we will no longer be able to have any more children...that is the most naresh post of the day. All women will not suddenly become childless when moishiach bist vil cumen...

He's quoting a Gemmoro, for crying out loud! Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it "naresh".

82

 Jun 18, 2009 at 06:49 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #78  
Anonymous Says:

Stats lie. They are a tool to deceive the gullible and to subject their minds to what the statistics user wants them to believe.
Johann Sebastian Bach had 22 Children, all of them accomplished, several almost equal to their father in musical ability.

He had those children by two separate wives and only 10 survived to adulthood.

83

 Jun 18, 2009 at 06:48 PM Avital Says:

I really hate to say this, but birth control in the form of pills is NOT considered a sin, if it were, most frum ladies would be sinning at some point in their life! While it is true that children are a blessing (and a men's mitzva), it is NOT a mitzva to have a 100 kids. We also have to teach ourkids responsibility, by being responsible ourselves. I wonder how they make ends meet, as the guy probably is a full time learner and mom's at home. Taking social benefits for a living is NOT considered responsible and I think a BAD example for their kids!

84

 Jun 18, 2009 at 08:41 PM jewish mother Says:

Reply to #7  
ultra orthodox Says:

I view having more kids then u can handle a sin...

How do you know what they can handle? It costs $1500 per year to feed a child, no one is going broke or not by that amount. There are plenty of perfectly good clothes around that people discard. Yeshiva isn't necessary, the Shema says "And YOU shall teach them diligently unto your children". Why should anyone choose not to have children because they can't afford private school or summer camp.

Children from larger families tend to be better adjusted because they have learned to interact with many different people and there is always someone around to spend time with.

Twenty years ago, we used to consider every Jewish child to be a great blessing. Now we have assimilated too many of the Goyishe ideas about family life and even so called "frum" people are instead criticizing larger families.

Would you rather spend your golden years going from simcha to simcha of your grandchildren and great grandchildren? Raising a family is an investment in simchas and nachas. Hashem blessed Avraham Avinu that his descendants should be as numerous as the stars, the money he already had and it did not make him happy.

85

 Jun 18, 2009 at 08:31 PM Baldover Says:

Reply to #78  
Anonymous Says:

Stats lie. They are a tool to deceive the gullible and to subject their minds to what the statistics user wants them to believe.
Johann Sebastian Bach had 22 Children, all of them accomplished, several almost equal to their father in musical ability.

You don't have the slightest idea what is a stat. When I say that 64% of the Israeli population id Jewish, that's a stat (and a fact). When I say 10% of the world Jewish population is observant, that's a stat (and a fact). Calculated by experts and not by some BP or Willie bums. BTW, Bach had all those children with 2 wives, not one, and that's a typical deceiving info from a gullible and simpleton's mind.

86

 Jun 18, 2009 at 09:43 PM kasha Says:

did they upgrade from a 15 passenger to "mein gaila bus" yet? oh my oh my... 18 kids... ouch!

87

 Jun 18, 2009 at 11:01 PM Gefilte Fish Says:

Reply to #21  
rabbi j Says:

tuition is the best birth control

Quite ridiculous.
"Seeing how chutzpadik the neighbor's children are, Yossi and Yenti decided not to have any children of their own."
Wouldn't that be ludicrous?
How can someone allow a potential cost - tuition or any other - affect the decision to bring a neshomo into the world? How stupid will this person feel if by the time his child is school aged (6 years later) tuitions are somehow reduced or eliminated, and by then it is too late for them to have more kids?

88

 Jun 18, 2009 at 10:56 PM Gefilte Fish Says:

Reply to #20  
rabbi j Says:

I'm an ultra orthodox chassidish satmar young mother. I used to work in an office with women from several walks of life. I can only tell you this much: I have less to complain on my husband than most of my workmates. On the contrary. I am respected for being what I am: a woman. I am not expected in any way to be what I am not: a man. If you think that heimishe ladies feel like garbage because they're stay at home moms think again. We have an internal happiness that career moms can never have because we're living life according to the natures of women

Rabbi J is an chassidish satmar young mother?
Sure.
And I'm a talking fish!

89

 Jun 18, 2009 at 11:52 PM boroparkyenta Says:

Reply to #83  
Avital Says:

I really hate to say this, but birth control in the form of pills is NOT considered a sin, if it were, most frum ladies would be sinning at some point in their life! While it is true that children are a blessing (and a men's mitzva), it is NOT a mitzva to have a 100 kids. We also have to teach ourkids responsibility, by being responsible ourselves. I wonder how they make ends meet, as the guy probably is a full time learner and mom's at home. Taking social benefits for a living is NOT considered responsible and I think a BAD example for their kids!

Although I was lucky enough never to have had this nisayon, as I successfully spaced my children by breastfeeding exclusively as long as possible, there are many women who cannot handle one child every year, and it is NOT a mitzva for them! A woman is allowed to do whatever she pleases (as long as the husband is not aware of it!) She does not even have to ask a Rav or anyone, this is what I was taught growing up. A woman has to have brains, and responsibility. She needs her strength to be a mother to the children she has, and quality childrearing is what counts, not quantity. It is almost impossible to successfully raise a smaller family and have 100% success. To raise a larger family is much harder, to say the least, in todays times. In almost every family there are all kinds of problems, from minor to more serious. Most parents have their hands full! And to have 9 or ten kids over the course of 20 years is normal, and what Hashem expects. That is why he created breastfeeding as a natural form of birth control. However, there is medical science available for whomever that does not work for....and it is here for a reason. Most chasidim reach 9 or ten kids, and if they all come out well, then that is a real mazel, in addition to the hard work of the parents. And living on the dole should be a last resort, not an expectation. If the parents cannot afford to take care of their children properly, they should not have them!

90

 Jun 18, 2009 at 11:58 PM momoflessthan19 Says:




sorry don't think there is anything beautiful about this talk to the kid's teachers and the neighbors and the big kids and of course the big no no to talk about , but maybe the husband wants to have a wife who for at least a year or two isn't pregnant?? And no one plans # 19 by the time you are up to number 8 or 9 you clearly aren't the planning type

91

 Jun 19, 2009 at 02:18 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #55  
Anonymous Says:

The only people who regard birth control as a sin are Catholics. It is not a Jewish view at all. Lehavdil

Another amhooretz heard from.

92

 Jun 19, 2009 at 02:08 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #29  
Anonymous Says:

So are you saying that there is no need for child care allowances, vouchers, section 8, medicaid, food stamps, etc?

There is no need for any of those programs to exist. Since they do exist, they often serve as Hashem's means of providing for people; if they didn't, Hashem would provide in some other way.

93

 Jun 19, 2009 at 02:06 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #28  
Anonymous Says:

I'm sure there will be a number of postings saying how wonderful it is to have so many babies, and that hashem will somehow provide for their support. The reality, though, is that each year, the ultra-orthodox demand more and more money from the government to provide subsidies to these families. We have had this debate on VIN many times but the bottom line seems to be that some believe that women should continue having as many children as they are physically capable of bearing and not to worry about thier upbringing and how to pay for them.

Yes, that is exactly right. Women *should* continue having as many children as they are physically capable of bearing and not to worry about their upbringing and how to pay for them. Hashem will provide. How He provides is up to Him; if His means of providing is welfare payments or tzedokoh, that's His choice, and it's just as valid as any other means. That is the view of Torah, and you will not find a single source that disagrees. Birth control is only allowed in unusual circumstances, and never for purely financial reasons.

94

 Jun 19, 2009 at 12:08 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #7  
ultra orthodox Says:

I view having more kids then u can handle a sin...

Then you are not "ultra orthodox" (whatever that means) or orthodox at all.

95

 Jun 19, 2009 at 12:07 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #1  
ML Says:

"Ultra-Orthodox Jews regard birth control as a sin" That is not 100% true. some do and most do not.

Oh really? Which ones don't?

96

 Jun 19, 2009 at 12:06 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

There has to be some limits. Hashem did not create women as "baby machines". This woman has spent half of her adult life in pregnancy. Who is taking care of the other 17 children since I suspect the father is sitting in a bes medrash somewhere learning. Who is supporting these yinglach. Hopefully, this family is an exception and they have a good parnassah but the statistics don't lie. The large percentage of "large" orthodox families in EY (6 children and over) are receiving some level of government welfare.

If Hashem didn't want her to have this many children, she wouldn't have them. He is the third parent, after all, and without Him a child can't be conceived. The fact that she has them proves that He wants her to.

97

 Jun 19, 2009 at 04:53 AM Shlomo Zalman Says:

To all the big machmirim out there, if almost everyone gets a heter for birth control, then the issur is obviously almost nonexistent . The Rabbonim who assur birth control all the time are living with their heads in the sand, because almost no one listens to them, and for good reason.

98

 Jun 19, 2009 at 04:43 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #89  
boroparkyenta Says:

Although I was lucky enough never to have had this nisayon, as I successfully spaced my children by breastfeeding exclusively as long as possible, there are many women who cannot handle one child every year, and it is NOT a mitzva for them! A woman is allowed to do whatever she pleases (as long as the husband is not aware of it!) She does not even have to ask a Rav or anyone, this is what I was taught growing up. A woman has to have brains, and responsibility. She needs her strength to be a mother to the children she has, and quality childrearing is what counts, not quantity. It is almost impossible to successfully raise a smaller family and have 100% success. To raise a larger family is much harder, to say the least, in todays times. In almost every family there are all kinds of problems, from minor to more serious. Most parents have their hands full! And to have 9 or ten kids over the course of 20 years is normal, and what Hashem expects. That is why he created breastfeeding as a natural form of birth control. However, there is medical science available for whomever that does not work for....and it is here for a reason. Most chasidim reach 9 or ten kids, and if they all come out well, then that is a real mazel, in addition to the hard work of the parents. And living on the dole should be a last resort, not an expectation. If the parents cannot afford to take care of their children properly, they should not have them!

What! Don't you know that by "doing anything you want" you cause your husband to sin? If that's how you feel, they only proper course is to abstain so as to keep him from doing an avera.
If you THINNK you can't handle what Hashem believes you can, grow up, accept challenges as a way to grow and get some good counseling from a chacham and his wife.




99

 Jun 19, 2009 at 04:38 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #85  
Baldover Says:

You don't have the slightest idea what is a stat. When I say that 64% of the Israeli population id Jewish, that's a stat (and a fact). When I say 10% of the world Jewish population is observant, that's a stat (and a fact). Calculated by experts and not by some BP or Willie bums. BTW, Bach had all those children with 2 wives, not one, and that's a typical deceiving info from a gullible and simpleton's mind.

The point isn't how many survived or how many wives produced them but I think you're wrong on that. NO matter the point was it isn't always the "illiterate, undeducated, disadvantaged" who produce many children.
It is not meant as a deceptive strategy because I was talking about JSB himself in connection with the characterization of who produces large families. You needen't be offensive. I am neither gullible nor a simpleton.

I dont' care about stats. I dont' care about how many Jews managed to get them selves counted. Hashem knows the true figure including crypto Jews and B'nei Anousim. It is their Jewish neshamot that ultimately count. And the 10% is not accurate. I wasn't counted. It's 10% of a "representative sample" not the entire Jewish population of the World.
That is the deceptive info of a simple mind. There is no way to extrapolate what people are thinking from "representative samples". To attempt to do so is sorcery, i.e. illicit mind reading.




100

 Jun 19, 2009 at 04:28 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #79  
Anonymous Says:

Having children is a blessing. Almost all these comments are bashing having a family or at least a large family. I know plenty of people out there who are waiting and waiting for their turn to have a child. I know cuz I'm one of them. Please recognize the bracha it is to have a child, and obviously support and care comes along with it. I daven to Hashem everyday for my husband and I to have a healthy child... birth control is the last thing on our minds right now. Mazel Tov to the parents of the child! May they have a lot of nachas from all of their children.

Yes I regret that as a secular I limited myself. But thru many repentant tears I am blessed with 5 grandchildren.

101

 Jun 19, 2009 at 04:26 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #74  
Anonymous Says:

Someone in that family better be "consumed with career" to feed, clothe and house a family of that size. As for the bar mitzvah aged boys, it sounds like you haven't had adolescents and young teens. While they don't need to be spoon fed or diapers changed, many adolescents and teens often need a lot of time and attention.

I mean focusing on getting ahead and not focusing on family. Of course someone has to work. I had a daughter who now has a 16 year old and I live in Israel. YOu make my point. Americans cosset and coddle kids. Here, they are expected to be adults. Look. I don't have my parents anymore but at 63 I could use a motherly hug once and a while too.
That doesn't mean I don't behave as an adult. You give them the time and attention AND responsibility when they are small and they grow up into independent thoughtful adults a lot sooner than we are willing to admit. Times have changed since the Middle ages but just because we have longer life expectancy doesn't mean we prolong ALL stages of it. Here's a clue: Kids still hit puberty about the same time as they always have. If anything is to be prolonged it IS adulthood, from its start, so that we can be productive and responsible and contribute something to the World.
Both the Chazal and the Ben Ish Hai put adulthood at what you call "adolescents and teens."

102

 Jun 19, 2009 at 07:42 AM Allan Says:

Her life, her body and it's only her and her husbands business to do as they choose with it.

103

 Jun 19, 2009 at 10:20 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #97  
Shlomo Zalman Says:

To all the big machmirim out there, if almost everyone gets a heter for birth control, then the issur is obviously almost nonexistent . The Rabbonim who assur birth control all the time are living with their heads in the sand, because almost no one listens to them, and for good reason.

Who told you almost everyone gets a heter?

104

 Jun 19, 2009 at 12:42 PM momoflessthan19 Says:

allan, #102, sorry, when I get pamphlets in the mail begging for help, or when chesed organizations come knocking on my door to help the needy of Israel, it affects me as well.
and I say again- as a teacher for a very very long time- 99% of the kids from homes like this-especially kids so close in age- suffer greatly from lack of stimulation and interaction with parents.

105

 Jun 19, 2009 at 01:22 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #76  
Anonymous Says:

Wow! what if she's studying to be a nurse and/or midwife or Gasp! the horror of it, a doctor? I hope your GYN understands these thing even if s/he isn't married yet.

Depends where you belong. In Chareidi circles, girls do not have opinions on birth control.

106

 Jun 19, 2009 at 01:26 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #76  
Anonymous Says:

Wow! what if she's studying to be a nurse and/or midwife or Gasp! the horror of it, a doctor? I hope your GYN understands these thing even if s/he isn't married yet.

Depends where you belong. In chareidi circles, girls do not have opinions about birth control.

107

 Jun 20, 2009 at 05:55 PM Serka Says:

Reply to #1  
ML Says:

"Ultra-Orthodox Jews regard birth control as a sin" That is not 100% true. some do and most do not.

I am sorry to tell you, that my daughter is living in Jerushalayim, she is 31 years old, maaried for nearly 10 yeas, and expecting a delivery of her fourth chidl please G'D, in about 4 weeks ,besha'a tova u mutslachat.
My children belongs, to the dati leumi minding persons, and her gynecologist, is also that way, wearing a kippa sruga, and each time, after each birth, when she came to hi mfor the first control without asking her, if she wants or doesn'"t want he gave her the contraception pill to take for at least 12 months, to recover, get back to her koichess, before thinking of a new child
.
That means that it is certainly not a sin, because otherwise the dati doctor would not have giving her this precription, neither her husband would have accepted the matter of the fact, that she is taking it, being very honnestly religious.


The problem is, that in the charedi mouvements, you don't receive any education in this field.

Tizki le mazl u le bracha, ve ken jirbu banim u banot

A messge from a reliigiosu woman dati leumi from Belgium

108

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