Beit Shemesh, Israel – Rabbis’ Committee Issue Detailed Modesty Booklet for Women

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    file photo sign on the street of JerusalemBeit Shemesh, Israel – A rabbis’ committee in Beit Shemesh distributed over the weekend a detailed booklet instructing female residents to dress modestly in the city’s ultra-Orthodox areas. In the pamphlets, women are ordered to keep their hair tied and their shirts buttoned up to the very end and to wear long sleeves.

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    The “chastity squad” pamphlets were distributed in mailboxes in the city’s religious and secular neighborhoods. They start off with some rhetorical questions: “You don’t want to hurt people, right? You’re a considerate person, right?”

    Next, the booklets elaborate on the demands for a modest appearance: “Your neck must not show from all sides. On the front – from where the rib bones start; the shoulders – from where the neck slope begins; on the back – from the first bone of the scruff.” Each instruction is accompanied by a drawing.

    Additional instructions state that the shirt must be wide, long and nontransparent; the sleeves must be long enough so as “not to reveal the elbow in any form or movement”; and the skirt must be long, wide and without a slit.

    The rabbis explain in the booklet that “entering a haredi neighborhood obligates us (from a moral aspect) to be considerate of the place’s nature and not to hurt the residents’ feelings, and to be seen in modest clothing only.

    “A modest garment covers every place in need of covering. In addition, it conceals the body’s shape. Thus, a tight shirt and a narrow skirt or trousers are considered immodest.”

    Another page in the booklet includes a “prayer of a Jewish girl”, and states that “your modest and dignified clothing shows that you acknowledge the fact that you are the daughter of a king. The modest clothing honors the woman and raises her value. There is so much to regret and to be ashamed of when a daughter’s king looks cheap and like a prostitute.”

    Shalom Lerner, chairman of the religious Beyachad faction at the Beit Shemesh Municipality, was one of the residents who found the booklet in their mailbox.

    “These are extreme people who must be really bored and unemployed during the summer, and are looking for some action like in Jerusalem. The normal haredim in the city don’t support them, and when I showed it to them they said, ‘They’re harassing us as well with this nonsense.’

    “Up to now they would hand out written pamphlets or something printed at home, but now they’ve invested money in a colorful booklet. They must really be bored,” he added.

    The Religious Zionism representative at the City Council clarified that the religious and secular public was “adamant not to let them go wild and take over”, and promised to bring in reinforcement from the outside.

    “We are making progress by building a new hesder yeshiva in Beit Shemesh and absorbing new families,” he said. “In the summer we are expecting the arrival of 100 families of new immigrants from the United States.”


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    138 Comments
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    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    They missed something…stockings!

    As a person who prides myself on not going out without a full sheitel & always wearing sleeves, decent necks & stockings (my girls also) this is insulting & intrusive. You catch more bees with honey than vinegar. BE NICE TO YOUR NEIGHBORS! Help other Jews, regardless of what they wear. And…MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS & look into your own family.

    This is horrible. Taliban???

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    We definatly need theses booklets in boro park and willi you go down 13ave today it not normal the way these ladies dress!!!!!

    zealot
    zealot
    14 years ago

    these dont sound like extremist views, if thats what the halacha is why shouldnt they publicize it. Sounds like kiruv to me, they should do this in every community. Where i live it has become common practice for women not to cover there knees, i wish some rabbis would get up and say something. most are just too afraid they’ll lose there jobs. more power to the zealots.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    we should all get this booklet. Lakewood has something similar.

    Rachel
    Rachel
    14 years ago

    Finally there is some people with common sense!, it’s way overdue! what took them so long to publish this booklet. I am so embarressed of how some of us FRUM ladies and girls go dreessed, why do we have to look so much like the goyim? why do we have to want to imitate them? where does theses fashions come from? and what are they trying to bring out. Hasehm yerachem on where we are going!!!.

    Shmuel
    Shmuel
    14 years ago

    perhaps its time for a booklet on approriate dress for men in public….

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    And I thought that these “religious” men were not supposed to look at women!!!!

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    bottom line:
    If a woman dresses provocatively it will be machshil men. Which Bas Yisroel wants that on her shoulders at her Yom HaDin?

    Simcha
    Simcha
    14 years ago

    #5 and others, stop with your moronic & immature “don’t look” comments. I suppose if no one is looking, then we can discard all Hilchos Tznius! Stop trying to excuse the unexcusable. Short, tight, figure revealing, skintone stockings and flashy clothes have become commonplace and accepted even in “frum heimishe” communities. It is absolutely shocking what’s going on. When Hashem sees ervah his presence leaves us and we can be oif tzuris r”l.

    Simcha
    Simcha
    14 years ago

    #2 , MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS is not a Torah outlook, whatever happened to Hocheach Tochiach? Here they are “being nice to their neighbors”. They gave them a nice color brochure, not hail of stones! Stop with your silly Taliban comparison.

    Simcha
    Simcha
    14 years ago

    #13 , Where does it say that they wrote “sleeves to the wrists or skirts to the ankles” besides the implication in the secular reporters biased description? To a secular, covering the knees or elbows is considered long!

    Dov
    Dov
    14 years ago

    It is not the responsibility of the woman to protect the man. He should either look away, develop self control or not be so obsessed with women. Denial often leads to more obsession. As we see from the muslims any visibility is now forbidden. To the obsessed even the most minor visibility will become objectionable. It is like any other obsession for which halacha becomes a form of rationalization.Youtreat the person not the environment.

    Simcha
    Simcha
    14 years ago

    #7 , “up to a tefach uncovered at the elbow, and slits that don’t go above the knee are ok, as is not wearing socks” What?! All these are ossur. Quote me a Posek who says otherwise.

    Happy man
    Happy man
    14 years ago

    Did they threaten anyone? Did harm anyone? They are allowed and they should rite whatever they want. if someone doesn’t like it don’t read it but don’t go against them. after all they are right. If we can’t follow those rules, fine. but at least let others improve themselves.

    the Wahhabism of Judaism.
    the Wahhabism of Judaism.
    14 years ago

    It seems that many of these “men” have nothing better what to do with themselves than to police women!! Perhaps they should start a self help group for these “men” where they could get involved in helping the very many poor and disinfranchised who live in Eretz Hakodesh.
    Enough preaching!! When is the frum world going to realize live by a positive example and leave the “sins” of others up to the Aibeshter to deal with. Boruch Hashem there are enough men who know how to keep their Yira Shomayim in check without covering women in Burkas.

    bozo the rabbi
    bozo the rabbi
    14 years ago

    ok, so they have a booklet, yay for them.

    i personally have halacha, which states the the upper bone of bot the arm and leg must be covered by a woman.

    the shailoh arises at the joint (elbow and knee) , which is a ball and socket structure. some poskim, and these would be the ones that the machmir ones hold like, say that the joint as well should be covered, and others, and these would be the makillim,, say that there is no need. never ever in halacha does it mention until the wrist, and does it mention stockings, or skirt length to the floor, etc.

    now, do people have a shitah to do such things, yes, and good for them, but how dare they claim this is halacha! to say such a thing is halacha is to water down what truly is halacha, and destroys what we have left of a mesorah. people today have blurred the lines of tradition (not minhag, but tradition, as minhag must be based on a halacha somewhere, which is why certain “minhagim” like upsherin, wearing any sort of clothing, etc are not true minhagim, but tradition.

    these people, if they attack anyone in beit shemesh should be tried in court and sentenced to the maximum years allowed under israeli law, and their families should be thrown out of the community. justice like that would cause these imbecilies to think twice before acting.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Why is everyone getting so hot. It’s another of those YNET pieces aimed at making frum Yidden look bad.

    FOOD FOR THOUGHT
    FOOD FOR THOUGHT
    14 years ago

    Maybe someone should consider making a pamphlet on how to be a “Mentsch”. A book on derech eretz and respect. no no no. we are to busy on making chumras on issues of ben adam lamakom. but on ben adam ladam, which u won’t be mochel on yom kippur unless the person forgiveed u. we don’t care. steeling for the government, acting like terroristt, intemadting ppl, this is all ok to the talban rabbis who take time to draw color pictures of how women should dress.

    Its so crazy all ready. not all of us are looking to hold of the strongest chumra. many of us want to be good jews and follow the 613 without adding on new chumrahs everyday.

    Its time to grow up and understand that your sects view are not the only one. There any different dayos out there, and we are not bad jews if we are not from your sect and follow your cults rabbi.

    Hatzlach Unbrocha

    Torah/Shulchan Aruch Jew
    Torah/Shulchan Aruch Jew
    14 years ago

    We have already the Torah and shulchan aruch????????

    chaim
    chaim
    14 years ago

    these criminally insane, sex obssesed taliban must be stopped immediately before they turn israel into another saudi arabia,frum women all over the world,stand up and let your voices be heard,and tell these male schauvinist pigs,that the problem is not the jewish frum woman,but it is in the mirror,let these gangster perverts look in the mirror and that is where the problem is,rebbis and roshey yesivas molesting their students in the yeshivas,summer camps and in mikvoes[where according to reliable estimates over 10,000 jewish neshammos were mollested in the last 40 yrs],the problem is the thousands of frum and chasidic men who are frequenting all kinds of massage parlors houses of prostitution and infecting their wives with diseases
    that is the problem,frum men overfilling the jails all over the world accused of gnaivah and gezailah,that is the problem,and it is not the frum jewish women who just don’t want to dress like the women of yemen,saudi arabia or iran.

    bepositive
    bepositive
    14 years ago

    I heard a vort on Shabbos to the effect that men do not have Techelis for their tzitzis (not everyone holds by those who say they found the source) because it relates to ‘the negative aspect’ and until Moshiach comes and we have Techelis once again, we must work thru ‘positiveness’ and ‘chessed’ to bring those closer who are far.

    lm
    lm
    14 years ago

    Its interesting how this anonymous messages full of criticism keep sprouting up with such hate for some one who takes time out to do something Le’shem Shomaim, it has nothing to do with tradition , yes true there are some communities that have different minhagim, but there is One Only Ribboino Shel Oilom, and he gave us One Torah, just in this last Parsha of Shlach we read:
    The Torah states:

    והתקדשתם והייתם קדושים
    Holy You Should Be!
    By wearing immodest clothing we distance the Shechina (Divine Presence) from us.
    As the Torah states:

    ולא יראה בן ערות דבר ושב מאחריך
    Immodesty should not be seen amongst you!
    Or Hashem will withdraw his presence from you!
    When the Shechina departs, we are stripped of our protection ח”ו
    Maybe this is why so many tzoros, illness, crushing poverty and unbearable tragedies, have befallen us.

    In the words of the Holy Chofetz Chaim tzl in a famous letter:
    “A huge fire has broken out in many places through the despicable styles which the power of uncleanliness has unleashed”……….
    THIS IS WHY BLESSINGS AND PROSPERITY HAVE LEFT US…….
    To a large degree this despicable style negates the statement of the Torah:
    “Your camp should be holy and there should not be found therein erveh”
    Tight-fitting, short, flashy clothing, low cut necklines, long extravagant sheitels, etc. are contrary to Tznius standards,
    Besides being the cause of other people’s sins.

    Dear Sisters!
    Let us wear clothes that are befitting for Jewish Daughters. This will cause the Shechina to reside in our midst. This will bring many blessings upon ourselves, and ultimately bring the Geulah Sheleima בב”א

    בזכות נשים צדקניות אתידין להגאל!

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    WHH
    Chaim, #24 , you’ve got a big problem, Man. They put out the pamphlet because the summer months in Israel sometimes lead some to be more lax in their observance of modesty. Please don’t insult these people with your vile language and deranged psychology. They live there, and know what they are doing.

    jimmy37
    jimmy37
    14 years ago

    Hareidi communities are fully within their rights to try to protect the nature of their neighborhood, yet, at the same time, they can’t keep non-residents from coming through. Look at the ruckus the bike lane through Williamsburgh caused.

    Women keep talking out of both sides of their mouths when they say they want to be treated like men but dress advertising their sexuality. The difficulty is in the definition of modest dress. Is it really immodest if the skirt rises above the knee as you walk, or if the elbow peeks out or if the skin just below the neckline shows?

    What is definitely immodest are the thoughts running through peoples’ minds. And these people blame others for their thoughts.

    People put so much into context that they ignore everything else. In the goyishe world, why would wearing lingerie be more immodest than wearing a bikini when both cover the same skin? The answer is neither are modest, but go tell that to a goy.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    26 – the mizrachi community was in beit shemesh long before the chareidim. the mizrachi community built the community, started stores, police protection etc. and just when they were reaping the benefits of the community they had worked so long and hard to build, they were overtaken by the chareidim who came with their own views of the way things should be. bottom line, if the chareidim didn’t like the way the beit shemesh mizrachi women dressed -which incidentally is usually very tznius – they should not have moved there. it’s as simple as that. if they wanted to move into an already established community, with its own and (gasp) different than chareidi way of doing things, they have to learn to accept the mizrachim, or at least just shut up and mind their own business.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    As the Vilna Gaon ZT”L said “what Torah is for men- tzniyus is for women”
    I am a frum BY graduate who dresses very tzniyus…yet i don’t feel that this approach is effective…in fact by being so zealous i think they will do more harm… this booklet would turn me off..can you imagine how much it would turn off a secular person…you get more by being nice, friendly and welcoming and by leaving a good impression of what being frum means…

    you can’t force people to be frum you can however impact them in a nice way where they will choose to be frum on their own at their own level at the right time..
    you never know how far a nice comment or nice deed can go…and you might not see the results right away but it’s worth planting the seed.

    there are many ways to get accross the same message.

    rivkie
    rivkie
    14 years ago

    actually, in response to Dov who says it is not the woman’s responsibility to protect the man….I beg to differ. It is the woman’s responsibility. Women are held accountable and responsible for their manner of dressing and whether their immodest dressing arouses improper thoughts in a man’s mind. This is a serious matter. According to Zohar women are very much responsible and this is not to be taken lightly. The problem is that many women do not realize or understand the implications of immodest dressing. That is where education comes in. It should be done nicely, with chesed, with understanding and sensitivity…but it should be done. If someone is putting out those pamphlets, he may not be bored….he may be suffering and distressed and people should do what the Torah requires, instead of fighting it and being rebellious. Modesty is an integral part of Torah. It is not optional!

    Simcha
    Simcha
    14 years ago

    Reply to #27 : I see you have a chip on your shoulder with the “holier than thou” crack. In any case I believe it started with those who draw their main influences from secular society. Either the workplace or secular videos, internet etc. led them to a lack of a close relationship with Hashem. This applies to men as well, if not more so. A person is what he/she sees, hears, reads and learns. If one’s influences are mostly or all antithetical to Hashem and his Torah, then one’s actions will follow suit. Once the dam broke and these people started dressing this way within frum communities, it spread until the point where a “stylish” woman is embarrassed to not dress this way! May we be zoche to do tshuva and follow Hashem’s laws and merit the geula shlaima!

    Simcha
    Simcha
    14 years ago

    Reply to #27 : I see you have a chip on your shoulder with the “holier than thou” crack. In any case I believe it started with those who draw their main influences from secular society. Either the workplace or secular videos, internet etc. led them to a lack of a close relationship with Hashem. This applies to men as well, if not more so. A person is what he/she sees, hears, reads and learns. If one’s influences are mostly or all antithetical to Hashem and his Torah, then one’s actions will follow suit. Once the dam broke and these people started dressing this way within frum communities, it spread until the point where a “stylish” woman is embarrassed to not dress this way! May we be zoche to do tshuva and follow Hashem’s laws and merit the geula shlaima!

    tim
    tim
    14 years ago

    these right wing religious fanatics are ruining Eretz Yisroel

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    This pamphlet sounds counterproductive and self-contradictory. It starts off saying that you shouldn’t hurt another person’s feelings. It then,states, in essense, that people who don’t follow their views of proper dress look like prostitutes. There are a lot of perfectly modest, kind and generous woman who wear appropriately fitting, nice looking slacks or who don’t tie their hair back who would have their feelings hurt by someone coming into their neighborhood and being told they look like prostitutes.

    It doesn't end...
    It doesn't end...
    14 years ago

    This brochure may be “non-confrontational” but it is all a threat in disguise. My sister lives in Bet Shemesh- was there before Ramat Bet Shemesh was even BUILT. She, her children and neighbors have been verbally AND physically assaulted by the authors of this “peaceful” brochure.
    True, not all the charedim agree with this approach but what are they doing to stop it? Nothing. You know why? They themselves are being threatened and pressured to go along with it all.
    To those who say that what’s written in the brochure is the only way to interpret the halacha- you are WRONG. There is a difference between halacha and chumros …if only people would recognize that- there would be an end to all this! People (rabbis…) hold thing differently- that’s why there are so many different sects of Jews out there in the first place- chasidim, litvish, yeshivish, Modern Orthodox etc.
    It all boils down to what several people wrote earlier: This is not the way to be mikarev people! To threaten, patronize and shove your views on someone will push them away. Treat them kindly and tolerate them- then maybe they’ll be more respectful when going into your neighborhoods (but in their own neighborhood? none of your business!)

    Alan
    Alan
    14 years ago

    I don’t understand: Would anyone show up in court dressed for a beach party? If I work in the garden, I wear Levis. When I go to shul I dress in a suit. I know gentiles who are not even religious who have the good sense to respect their neighbors…No one should NEED to be told ,but as basic etiquette seems to have escaped my fellow Jews of every stripe…it’s good to be reminded. Or is it politics that prevents one from accepting polite reminders from fellow Jews? (the this is the synagogue I attend, that’s the synagogue i would not be caught in syndrome)

    lev
    lev
    14 years ago

    #2 by signing ‘taliban’ you dont sound like someone going tzniousdik other wise you woulndt mind. anyway its not your neighborhood so mind your business

    lev
    lev
    14 years ago

    #24 your a real mental case. so maybe i should eat treif , mechalel shabbos etc etc because others are oiver different avairos

    berel
    berel
    14 years ago

    most posters who go against this and many others are usually big kallim or ignorant of the ‘kevida’ of bas yisroel. the gemorrah mentions abouth the daughter of one of the holy tanaim (one of the 10 martyers) why was she punished, because when she passed roman legions and they remarked how beautiful her legs are she walked more…., meseachtes`soteh brings about a isha chassidah why because she was mispallel men should not be michshal with lewd thaughts because of her, the chasam soifer had a daughter that when she saw a male looking after her she went her father about it and he was mispallel …see chut hameshulosh….

    alwaysonthyme
    alwaysonthyme
    14 years ago

    24 & 58 I agree with you.

    MEN: Honesty in business, bein odom lechaveiro sensitivities, not cutting each other off when driving, holding a door when entering a place, wearing clean clothes and fresh clothes daily, taken a shower daily not only for shabbos, not speeding in parking lots, not staring at handicapped people, etc. etc. In other words: being a mensch and teaching your children to have common courtesies – instead of pushing to get in front a line; at the airport, at a store, at a simcha, on a bus. Negiah is not permitted to get on a bus!!! When the men have these things corrected . . . then come to the women and tell us what we need to correct. Husbands should be talking to their wives about tznius -not someone else’s husband. It’s usually the husbands that encourage the trampy look.

    Consider, having a lecture or shiur for the men and then things may change! Majority of the women do follow the halochos – not the chumros!
    You want chumros move to meya shearim.

    rebbetzin hockstein
    rebbetzin hockstein
    14 years ago

    #74 is correct! The Talibanization of Judaism is exactly what it is!!! IF (big if) the folks behind this were signing their names/the names of the rabbonim behind this, that would be one thing. The fact that they sign “Vaad Mishmeres Tznius” and some such, choosing to remain anomynous and hide behind flowery language indicates that there is a totally different agenda going on here…It is all about power and control and using halacha as a club to beat people into submission and conform to some warped individuals’ idea of what Torah, Mitzvos, Yiddishkeit is about. DO NOT LET THESE SICKOS HIJACK OUR BEAUTIFUL MESORAH!. Deracheha darchei noam, that’s the way it ought to be done. The fact that others are “signing on” to this because the “vaad” are in fact promoting tznius which is a core Jewish value just shows that the Satan/Yetzer Hora comes wrapped in Tallis/Tefillin. #78 and others, Don’t be fooled! Our children are watching, and in my never to be humble opinion, this arm twisting, Yiddishkeit is a strait jacket kind of mentality is exactly why we have so many kids who are going off the derech…..

    # 74 said: ‘Tznius activists”..oh, is that what they’re calling themselves now? the “tznius patrol”…firstly it’s not only in the charedi neighborhoods that they are doing this. Like I said- not all the charedim in RBS agree to this in-your-face tactics …

    #78 said: most posters who go against this and many others are usually big kallim or ignorant of the ‘kevida’ of bas yisroel

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    lately in my community the lack of tzniyus is unbeleivable!! the worst part is that these women consider themselves “frum” i won’t say where i live since it will be loshon hara.
    1) many women rely on R’ Moshe Feinsteins ZT”L heter of a tefach- do people even know what measurement a tefach translates into? is it one inch, 2 inches, 3 inches. a half a head…
    2) most women are completely comfortable wearing skirts 2 inches ABOVE the knee…. or exactly at the knee… with a slit on top of that…..
    3)in the summer- no socks is a given
    4) covering elbows? its way too hot…

    i don’t consider myself frummer than others since who am i to judge.. but please? these are basics…
    and yes, i have the nisayon of tzniyus too…would i love to dress a certain way? maybe but i know it’s not what Hashem wants from me..
    i try to do my best and hope that i am ok … i hate looking like the frummie- when really i am just following the rules..

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    When Rabbi Falk’s book was first published, the principal in my kids’ school wanted to have the teachers adhere to the rules within. A parent who is a very prominent Rav in Flatbush said, “this is not for our neighborhood.” Rabbi Falk must have meant what he thought was appropriate, but obviously, there are Chilukai Daios.

    realitycheck
    realitycheck
    14 years ago

    Let these members of the vaad tznius go and get a real job and stop being busy with the women.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Is this book going to be sold in bookstores?

    respect for others
    respect for others
    14 years ago

    even if they are wrong what ever happened to minhag of a city if this is how they dress then when you come visit then you should dress like them. let them have housecoats for sale at the entrance to their city for ppl who they think don’t pass inspection and are unprepared. I know someone who is not yet completely frum and still wears pants but every time she comes by a frum community out of respect she dresses appropriately so too shall we learn

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Several posters have raised a good question as to why there aren’t similiar rules for how men dress…there is no basis in halacha to say that women should not have to look at men dressed immodestly. These rabbonim should show some leadership and provide strong guidelines for how the men dress in public. Failure to do so would send the wrong signal to women that Tzinius is a “one way street”.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    WHH
    To #83 . I studied Rav Falk’s Sefer Oz Vehadar under Rebbetzin Blau for several years, and I can assure you that Rav Falk brings only the halacha and if this ‘very prominent’ Rav of Flatbush has a problem with the sefer, it means he has either not not read the sefer, or not understood it. I might agree with him , however, that the hilchos of Tzniut for women may very well not apply to his neighborhood. I am ashamed and deeply saddened by the state of Tznius in the U.S., particularly in New York, and i urge all Jewish women to aquire a copy of this sefer and read it carefully. There is a tendency to jump at any thought which differs from our own lifestyle, regardless of the merit ,however, we have these holy books, you know, the ones that Jewish people read, that have sustained our people over the millenium. If we want to continue as a “Jewish People” and not fade into oblivion, our duty is to follow the opinions of Rabbaim much wiser than ourselves, for direction. This little forum here is a nice example of why we need to learn more. Anyone who feels above learning about such a topic, or feels they are now a gaon on this topic, is the first one who needs an education.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    WHH
    Several years ago, I was walking on Rechov Avodat Yisroel, a street which passes behind Rechov Mea Shearim in Jerusalem, and every household had placed large banners “Please do not pass through our neighborhood…” suspended from poles all the same size, from the upper stories of the small buildings. The effect was like walking under a corridor of flags, yet it made perfectly clear the neighborhood consensus.One household I recall had a much larger sign then his neighbors, and his pole was double the length lashed together with wire, The words were slashed with red underlinings hastily painted with a broad brush. Obviously this householder wanted to distinguish himself from the group as being more machmir than his fellow neighbors in this regard, and yet the effect was clearly, in itself not modest. I think we can all learn from this that intent has a great deal to do with our cheshbon with Ha Kodesh Boruch Hu whether a person observes the Hilchos of modesty with the intent to be modest or with what she or he can get away with, and the zealous because they really genuinely care about the observance of the mitzvah and not just about being zealous for its own sake. There is a moral degeneration in the world. Any sensitive person can see this and a Jew is by nature a sensitive being. The problems of modesty or lack of it reflects also in the observant among us , and while always a little bit above the nations around us, there is still a big problem. Denying the emes only leads to delusional thoughts like the double sized pole and the letters slashed in red. Refined dressing has nothing whatsoever to do with uncovering body parts, and proving who has more alluring ones than others, or more expensive. Refined dressing has everything to do with attitude and intent.

    amomtomany
    amomtomany
    14 years ago

    Why is it that this small group of people can dictate how women dress with such severity, and then when it comes to issues of bein adam l’chaveiro they don’t hold themselves accountable to very much?? Some wouldn’t hesitate to hurt a woman for getting on a wrong bus, or walking is a wrong place, or hurting a child for no good reason. It is really nothing different than the taliban. It’s not a type of person that Hashem would be proud of being a ‘tzelem’ of Hakosh Baruch Hu. i wouldn’t consider such a person a ‘frum yid’ in any respect. I see is no different that their eating chazir.
    Perhaps, they should take the time really learn the halacha, instead of making it up. Holding themselves accountable too, and not just others isn’t such a bad idea….

    Simcha
    Simcha
    14 years ago

    (Reply to #69 Shlomo Zalman): 1) In this day and age it should be obvious when someone is condemning the internet, that they mean unfiltered internet!
    2)I never claimed that I believe that my relationship is much closer with Hashem. I merely meant that if we see someone dressing in a provocative or in a non-tznius way it would seem that they are not overly concerned with the ratzon Hashem!

    kaynahora
    kaynahora
    14 years ago

    No one can make me wear stockings or socks in the heat of the summer.

    Ben Kochba
    Ben Kochba
    14 years ago

    It is for individuls to decide how they dress. They can speak with their Rav and make their own decisions.
    If people want to live and adhere to a certain code let them go out and build thier own community. Kiryas Yoel is a good example. What irks me is that people even a majority have no right to tell others how to live in a free soceity.