RSS Feed
Israel - Rabbis Allow Mentally Challenged to Marry |
|
| |
Text Size
|
The ultra-Orthodox community prohibits the intellectually challenged to marry, for fear that their disability would keep them from properly observing matrimonial mitzvot.
The Halacha differentiates between two kinds of mental defects: The "fool" – who lacks all comprehension, and the "simpleton" – who has basic comprehension abilities and is able to observe the Torah's ordinances.
Over the past 18 months, four special-needs couples, determined by rabbis as "simpletons" have been given a special dispensation to marry. One of the happy brides to be is no other than Shulamit Druckman, the daughter of prominent Religious Zionism Rabbi Haim Druckman. Shulamit suffers from Down's Syndrome.
Her future husband also suffers from the trisomy-21 chromosomal disorder. "I want to be a bride just like everyone else and later, a mother, too," she said.
The couples are being chaperoned by "supervisors" – family members or close friends who ensure they follow the relevant mitzvot of house and home.
"Matrimony had been proven to have a positive effect on people with special needs," said Rabbi Shay Piron of Petah Tikva. "Of course, in haredi society couples cannot live together without matrimony, so we welcome special dispensations."
Nevertheless, the rabbis have advised these couples not to have children.
Social Affairs Minister Isaac Herzog welcomed the decision: "I see great importance in realizing the rights of special needs people, including their right to set up house," he said.
More of today's headlines
“Washington - A six-car Red Line train headed in the direction of Shady Grove derailed between the Takoma and Fort Totten Metrorail stations and was involved in a...”
Washington - Subway Trains Collide, Fatalities and Injuries [video]
San Jose - Israeli Killed In Costa Rica
Total34
Read Comments (34) — Post Yours »
1
Jun 22, 2009 at 05:26 PM Milhouse Says:
Ms Druckman may want to be a mother, but since her husband shares her abnormality it's almost impossible. There have been only three recorded instances of males with Down's syndrome fathering children.
2
Jun 22, 2009 at 05:25 PM melech Says:
I think most, if not all, people with downs are infertile
3
Jun 22, 2009 at 06:02 PM Anonymous Says:
There are shadchans here in U.S. that specialize with people who have disabilities of various kinds.
4
Jun 22, 2009 at 07:52 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Ms Druckman may want to be a mother, but since her husband shares her abnormality it's almost impossible. There have been only three recorded instances of males with Down's syndrome fathering children. ”
Its just as possible for them as it is for anyone else. As you said, there are known cases of people with this disease that have children.
She just needs the proper siyata d'shmaya.
May they be zoiche to it b'mehairo b'yomeinu.
5
Jun 22, 2009 at 07:56 PM nurse Says:
people with disabilities deserve to feel the love that only a spouse can provide. It is stories like this that makes me emotional.
6
Jun 22, 2009 at 08:25 PM mottel Says:
i wouldn't be surprised if they have a far better sholom bayis than normal people; she probably comes without all the 'moods' of a normal woman
7
Jun 22, 2009 at 10:20 PM esther Says:
this is a revelation of moshiach when all will be healed!
8
Jun 22, 2009 at 10:17 PM zindel Says:
I personnaly know of 2 coupls in Monroe and 1 in Monsey with such condition.
I would pitty the kids of such family!!!
9
Jun 22, 2009 at 09:58 PM Anonymous Says:
You sound like a real treasure yourself, Mottel.
10
Jun 23, 2009 at 03:36 AM Anonymous Says:
Why do they attribute this development to the chareidi community? Rabbi Druckman is the former head of Bnei Akiva, a self-professed religious Zionist. So is Peron. They have nothing to do with the chareidi community.
11
Jun 23, 2009 at 12:56 AM hassidicboy Says:
“ I personnaly know of 2 coupls in Monroe and 1 in Monsey with such condition.
I would pitty the kids of such family!!! ”
What kind of pity are you talking about? Why are you looking down on disabled people? Don't you think children who has disabled parents feels down, as all knows they're from a disabled parents?! Why don't you encourage and show them that their parents are special and wonderful parents?!
12
Jun 22, 2009 at 11:18 PM Anonymous Says:
why cant they have kids? the usual round the clock supervision doesnt change anyway and kids can be brought up by grandparents and would help the children see their place in the world
13
Jun 23, 2009 at 06:29 AM Anonymous Says:
"The ultra-Orthodox community prohibits the intellectually challenged to marry, for fear that their disability would keep them from properly observing matrimonial mitzvot."
Ummm... newsflash! American law also prohibits the mentally retarded to marry and have children.
14
Jun 23, 2009 at 06:24 AM APARENTSPEAKS.ORG Says:
I cried reading this article. i am a proud father of a 14 year old autistic son, I know the chances of him getting married are not great but it is what i daven for everyday. It is what he deserves. every study done on this topic has concluded that the benefits are beyond great so who dares to stand in the way of such destiny. Who dares to deprive these special people, people who the Chazon ish said were special mesengers from G-D, of their hapiness. those who are capable should be working to bring together such people for the reward will be so great.
15
Jun 23, 2009 at 08:10 AM Anonymous Says:
“ I cried reading this article. i am a proud father of a 14 year old autistic son, I know the chances of him getting married are not great but it is what i daven for everyday. It is what he deserves. every study done on this topic has concluded that the benefits are beyond great so who dares to stand in the way of such destiny. Who dares to deprive these special people, people who the Chazon ish said were special mesengers from G-D, of their hapiness. those who are capable should be working to bring together such people for the reward will be so great. ”
may your son be zoche to lead the happiest life, amen
16
Jun 23, 2009 at 07:56 AM Anonymous Says:
“ What kind of pity are you talking about? Why are you looking down on disabled people? Don't you think children who has disabled parents feels down, as all knows they're from a disabled parents?! Why don't you encourage and show them that their parents are special and wonderful parents?! ”
There is a difference between a regular, normal disability like deafness, muteness and lameness (where the person is basically normal) and the kind of "disability" this article is talking about: mental retardation/chromosomal abnormalities. This article is trying to equate the two kinds of disabilities, which is wrong. Every parent is special and wonderful, not just those with a disability....talk about politically correct idiocy!
17
Jun 23, 2009 at 07:52 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Its just as possible for them as it is for anyone else. As you said, there are known cases of people with this disease that have children.
She just needs the proper siyata d'shmaya.
May they be zoiche to it b'mehairo b'yomeinu. ”
With both parents being carriers of the recessive gene....it is physically impossible for them to have normal children, but at least they would have each other for companions. The responsible thing to do is fit her with a norplant device.
18
Jun 23, 2009 at 09:35 AM Anonymous Says:
“ With both parents being carriers of the recessive gene....it is physically impossible for them to have normal children, but at least they would have each other for companions. The responsible thing to do is fit her with a norplant device. ”
Do you always offer medical opinions without bothering to do a little basic research?
19
Jun 23, 2009 at 09:18 AM Milhouse Says:
“ With both parents being carriers of the recessive gene....it is physically impossible for them to have normal children, but at least they would have each other for companions. The responsible thing to do is fit her with a norplant device. ”
It's probably not necessary to do anything, BH. The chances of such a couple having children even without the device are lower than the chances of a normal couple having children WITH it!
20
Jun 23, 2009 at 09:16 AM Milhouse Says:
“ why cant they have kids? the usual round the clock supervision doesnt change anyway and kids can be brought up by grandparents and would help the children see their place in the world ”
Are you nuts? Two people with genetic deficiencies, and you want them to have children and perpetuate the line?! Boruch Hashem that is very unlikely to happen.
21
Jun 23, 2009 at 09:14 AM Milhouse Says:
“ this is a revelation of moshiach when all will be healed! ”
Huh? How is it any such thing?
22
Jun 23, 2009 at 09:14 AM Milhouse Says:
“ Its just as possible for them as it is for anyone else. As you said, there are known cases of people with this disease that have children.
She just needs the proper siyata d'shmaya.
May they be zoiche to it b'mehairo b'yomeinu. ”
No, it is NOT "just as possible". On the contrary, the fact that only three cases are known of a mongoloid man fathering a child means that it's almost impossible. And when you add the fact that the mother has the same condition, and therefore has lower fertility, the chances drop even lower. And that is a good thing. Chas vesholom that your wish should be fulfilled; you must be sick to wish such a thing. Are there not enough problems in the world, that you pray for more?
23
Jun 23, 2009 at 09:25 AM Anonymous Says:
It is nice that they can marry and have each other for company, but it would be irresponsible and selfish to let them have children. Childen need their parents to be able to care for them. One commentor said that the grandparents can raise the children. Who says they are interested?
BTW, I am not insensitive to people with special needs - I have a sister who is autistic. I love her very much but I know that she will not get married until Moshiach comes, Bimhairo Beyamainu.
24
Jun 23, 2009 at 09:05 AM Anonymous Says:
“ With both parents being carriers of the recessive gene....it is physically impossible for them to have normal children, but at least they would have each other for companions. The responsible thing to do is fit her with a norplant device. ”
Please cite a source for your assertion that two Downs Syndrome parents cannot not have non-Downs Syndrome children.
25
Jun 23, 2009 at 12:10 PM Anonymous Says:
“ "The ultra-Orthodox community prohibits the intellectually challenged to marry, for fear that their disability would keep them from properly observing matrimonial mitzvot."
Ummm... newsflash! American law also prohibits the mentally retarded to marry and have children. ”
There are several couples with Down syndrome who have married in the United States. I know of at least one couple not far from me in Colorado. Another was written up in Time magazine. In any case, such laws would be on a state-by-state basis, certainly not a blanket "American law". I am thankful that it starting to be recognized that people with developmental delays are *people* with feelings and needs first, and can marry if that is what they desire. Many people with Down syndrome are quite high functioning and able to participate in such a relationship.
Also, I know that people with Down syndrome can indeed become parents. The circumstances are unfortunate (rape), but I know of a woman in a poor area of Nicaragua who has Down syndrome who has two children who also have Down syndrome.
26
Jun 23, 2009 at 01:23 PM Anonymous Says:
“ There are several couples with Down syndrome who have married in the United States. I know of at least one couple not far from me in Colorado. Another was written up in Time magazine. In any case, such laws would be on a state-by-state basis, certainly not a blanket "American law". I am thankful that it starting to be recognized that people with developmental delays are *people* with feelings and needs first, and can marry if that is what they desire. Many people with Down syndrome are quite high functioning and able to participate in such a relationship.
Also, I know that people with Down syndrome can indeed become parents. The circumstances are unfortunate (rape), but I know of a woman in a poor area of Nicaragua who has Down syndrome who has two children who also have Down syndrome. ”
#13 here. My point was not that it should or shouldn't be permitted for them to marry - I'm not qualified to make that judgement. My point was that the author of the article shouldn't try to make chareidim look bad by saying they don't permit a kind of marriage that isn't permitted in 30 out of 50 states the United States.
As a side note, my parents told me they knew a mentally challenged couple that had "normal" children. I think the grandparents helped raise them.
27
Jun 23, 2009 at 01:16 PM Raphael Kaufman Says:
“ people with disabilities deserve to feel the love that only a spouse can provide. It is stories like this that makes me emotional. ”
Does't someone have to be a bar da'as to make kiddushin?
28
Jun 23, 2009 at 01:14 PM Raphael Kaufman Says:
“ Please cite a source for your assertion that two Downs Syndrome parents cannot not have non-Downs Syndrome children. ”
Try 10th grade Biology. in order for a recessive trait to be passed to the next generaton both parents have to have at least one alele. the offspring must have two aleles, one from each parent, to exhibit the recessive trait. If two people, both exhibiting recessive traits, have children, that means the ofspring cannot help but have the two aleles that yield the recessive thrait.
29
Jun 23, 2009 at 02:05 PM Anonymous Says:
“ i wouldn't be surprised if they have a far better sholom bayis than normal people; she probably comes without all the 'moods' of a normal woman ”
NU? So maybe you should've married someone like her, so you wouldnt be affected by the "Moods">>> come on, be realistic.. marriage is a package deal... you get a normal wife, and you get her moods as well... Welcome to the world! you gotta learn to deal with it!!
30
Jun 23, 2009 at 05:48 PM Anonymous Says:
Please, like men don't have moods. Try surly, short, quick tempered and grouchy.
31
Jun 23, 2009 at 04:29 PM KAS Says:
“ No, it is NOT "just as possible". On the contrary, the fact that only three cases are known of a mongoloid man fathering a child means that it's almost impossible. And when you add the fact that the mother has the same condition, and therefore has lower fertility, the chances drop even lower. And that is a good thing. Chas vesholom that your wish should be fulfilled; you must be sick to wish such a thing. Are there not enough problems in the world, that you pray for more? ”
Milhouse,
Your comments regarding down syndrome are hurtful and uneducated. First and foremost it is insensitive to call individuals with Down Syndrome Mongoloids. Second to state that having a child with Down Syndrome is a "problem" is insensitive to anyone who has a brother, sister, or child with Down Syndrome. It is impossible to make a blanket statement regarding all individuals with Down Syndrome. Its impossible to say all individuals with DS are happy, or are stubborn. It is also inappropriate to say all individuals with DS are problems that require your prayer.
With respect to individuals with DS marrying and/or having children, there is no one answer for all. It would be best to allow the parents of these individuals to make the decision as to if they should marry and if they (with the assistance of grandparents) have the ability to care for a child. While even I see concede that the likelihood of individuals with DS being capable of caring for a child as slim that is not to say there are not some individuals out there who could be effective parents.
32
Jun 23, 2009 at 06:08 PM Anonymous Says:
#25 here again. I think I'm getting in above my head here. I'm not from your community but found this page/article because I keep an eye out for news about people with Down syndrome (DS), as my 5 year old son has DS. So my apologies if I should not be responding here. I'll just say a couple more things and then be quiet, unless y'all don't mind people outside your community chiming in.
Reply to #13/#26 -- Saying it that way (30 of 50 states) is more accurate (though I actually don't know what the actual numbers and states are -- do you have a link? I'd very much like to know) than saying *American* law forbids those with mental retardation to marry and have children. Most laws like this (marriage, for sure, with the exception of the DOMA which doesn't relate to disabilities) really are on a state-by-state basis. It is unfortunate that in our history we have had huge prejudice and discrimination toward those with disabilities, be they developmental or physical, including (relating to this subject) laws against marriage, having children, going so far as to do forced sterilization, and so forth. After my post I tried to find out what laws there might still be, but didn't find anything online that simple. Obviously some states do allow such marriages (CO, NY for two). I don't know that those states forbid having children (and again, the only ways to enforce such a thing would either be forced sterilization, forced abortion, or removing the child from the family after birth without looking at the particular set of parents). Also, some laws still on the books may just be vestiges of earlier discrimination (just as one can still sometimes find outdated laws regarding race that are slowly being eliminated). I *did* find several writings about how laws in this regard are changing, and what the issues are, and how indeed some people with developmental disabilities are still able to be good parents. (I also remember that the couple in Time magazine, I believe, specifically said they did not want to have children.) And then the issue becomes, who makes the decision for a particular parent/couple? In the end, all I have to say is that I'm happy for the developmentally disabled in the community in the article we are commenting on that at least some of them will be able to participate in such an important part of life that most of us take for granted.
Reply to several regarding infertility among people with DS. When I first started learning about DS because of our son, I read things like this, but delving deeper, it seems that a large part of this comes from people with DS historically not being permitted to even be in relationships, and/or being sterilized by those who were their guardians (also, until the last couple decades, even here in the US the life span for people with DS was something like 30; now it is much longer). I noted the woman in Nicaragua with DS who has two children (also with DS). I think as more and more people with DS are allowed to be in relationships we will find that they are not as infertile as once thought. Whether it is a good idea for them to actually have children, and who makes that decision, is a completely different question, about which I have mixed feelings, and upon which at this time I am not qualified to comment more than I already have.
Again, my apologies for intruding on your community, if this board is not meant for the general public. I hope you can read my comments in light in which they are intended, to shed further light on these issues from someone involved from the DS side of the equation.
33
Jun 24, 2009 at 12:37 AM Anonymous Says:
#25/32, I'm sorry if I didn't show enough sensitivity to your situation with your son. As I said, I was only commenting that our community shouldn't be made to look bad for limiting marriages in the mentally challenged when so many others do the same.
There are reasons that we limit these marriages, as there are religious ordinances which must be obeyed in a Jewish marriage. If the couple cannot mentally understand these laws, then they cannot obey them. Therefore, they should either not get married, or else their parents and siblings have to diligently help them observe all the commandments of marriage, as happened in the cases highlighted in the article.
Our primary concern is that the developmentally disabled be helped to fully observe all the commandments, not to say they are any less deserving of marrying. I personally think they should marry and enjoy a close bond with a spouse, as the rest of us can, but as I said earlier, I am not qualified to make this judgement in a religious context - those are just my feelings.
I wish you the best of luck with your son. What I read about these marriages is that most states that have bans do not enforce them anymore. I hope he will find the right girl and get married, and enjoy a long, full, happy life. Take care and be well.
34
Jun 24, 2009 at 08:44 AM Anonymous Says:
“ #25 here again. I think I'm getting in above my head here. I'm not from your community but found this page/article because I keep an eye out for news about people with Down syndrome (DS), as my 5 year old son has DS. So my apologies if I should not be responding here. I'll just say a couple more things and then be quiet, unless y'all don't mind people outside your community chiming in.
Reply to #13/#26 -- Saying it that way (30 of 50 states) is more accurate (though I actually don't know what the actual numbers and states are -- do you have a link? I'd very much like to know) than saying *American* law forbids those with mental retardation to marry and have children. Most laws like this (marriage, for sure, with the exception of the DOMA which doesn't relate to disabilities) really are on a state-by-state basis. It is unfortunate that in our history we have had huge prejudice and discrimination toward those with disabilities, be they developmental or physical, including (relating to this subject) laws against marriage, having children, going so far as to do forced sterilization, and so forth. After my post I tried to find out what laws there might still be, but didn't find anything online that simple. Obviously some states do allow such marriages (CO, NY for two). I don't know that those states forbid having children (and again, the only ways to enforce such a thing would either be forced sterilization, forced abortion, or removing the child from the family after birth without looking at the particular set of parents). Also, some laws still on the books may just be vestiges of earlier discrimination (just as one can still sometimes find outdated laws regarding race that are slowly being eliminated). I *did* find several writings about how laws in this regard are changing, and what the issues are, and how indeed some people with developmental disabilities are still able to be good parents. (I also remember that the couple in Time magazine, I believe, specifically said they did not want to have children.) And then the issue becomes, who makes the decision for a particular parent/couple? In the end, all I have to say is that I'm happy for the developmentally disabled in the community in the article we are commenting on that at least some of them will be able to participate in such an important part of life that most of us take for granted.
Reply to several regarding infertility among people with DS. When I first started learning about DS because of our son, I read things like this, but delving deeper, it seems that a large part of this comes from people with DS historically not being permitted to even be in relationships, and/or being sterilized by those who were their guardians (also, until the last couple decades, even here in the US the life span for people with DS was something like 30; now it is much longer). I noted the woman in Nicaragua with DS who has two children (also with DS). I think as more and more people with DS are allowed to be in relationships we will find that they are not as infertile as once thought. Whether it is a good idea for them to actually have children, and who makes that decision, is a completely different question, about which I have mixed feelings, and upon which at this time I am not qualified to comment more than I already have.
Again, my apologies for intruding on your community, if this board is not meant for the general public. I hope you can read my comments in light in which they are intended, to shed further light on these issues from someone involved from the DS side of the equation.
”
This is obviously an open forum where everyone is welcome to post their thoughts. It is just popular within the Jewish community because the people who run this blog post articles that they feel are relevant to the Orthodox Jewish community.
You pointed out some very interesting observations on this issue. Hearing the parents' point of view gives us some food for thought.
I wish you a lot of luck with your son.