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Bogota, Colombia - Latin American Jews Reluctant to Accept New Converts |
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A convert shares his struggles
And yet, there is a movement afoot in Latin America. Christians are increasingly converting to Judaism.
And yet, the Jewish community sees something wrong with this.
From JTA:
Luis Alberto Prieto Vargas appears to be a Jew.
He wears a kippah, he introduces himself as Jewish, and two years ago Vargas, a Christian by birth, underwent a conversion ceremony to Judaism following several years of religious study.
It all began seven years ago when Vargas, now 51, became part of a movement in Bogota, Colombia, of religious seekers.
“As I did, most of the people involved came from Christian roots,“ he said. “And we found in Judaism an answer to our inquiries.“
But Vargas’ conversion hit a key snag: Jews.
First, Orthodox Jews in Colombia refused to accept Vargas and 200 or so others as would-be Jews, vehemently disavowing association with them and refusing them access to the community’s mikvahs for conversion.
The group, which calls itself Maim Haim—Hebrew for “living waters”—turned to religious authorities in Israel for training and, they hoped, eventual conversion, but it was stymied when Colombia’s Orthodox Jewish leadership contacted rabbinic authorities in Israel and warned them against accepting the would-be converts.
Main Haim eventually found a rabbi in Israel willing to teach its members, and in 2007 the rabbi and two colleagues convened a Jewish religious court, or bet din, and converted 104 of them including Vargas.
Still, many Jewish institutions in Colombia refuse to accept them as members.
The plight of Main Haim underscores the difficulty many converts and would-be converts to Judaism have in Latin America, particularly those who convert as a group or come to Judaism on their own rather than in concert with local Jewish authorities.
Local Jewish communities are concerned about being overwhelmed by mass converts, and many have questions about whether the converts’ motivations are genuine. In Israel and in Colombia, the converts often are viewed skeptically—as émigrés-in-waiting more interested in obtaining Israeli citizenship, which is available to all Jews, than Judaism itself.
Approximately 70 percent of Maim Haim members have filed petitions for aliyah with the Jewish Agency for Israel. Their petitions are being held in abeyance while Israel’s Chief Rabbinate makes a determination as to their Jewish credentials.
“There should be a filter,“ said Colombia’s chief rabbi, Alfredo Goldschmidt.
Read the rest here. 
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Read Comments (41) — Post Yours »
1
Jun 23, 2009 at 06:41 PM Bunimfrombrooklyn Says:
The Syrian community no longer accepts converts either
No-one has a problem with them???
2
Jun 23, 2009 at 08:00 PM Anonymous Says:
“ The Syrian community no longer accepts converts either
No-one has a problem with them??? ”
Reply to #1. The syrian community in Brooklyn have not accepted converts since the 30's or so. All their Rabbonim since then have signed proclamations to this effect. Obviously there were many problems with the converts converting for the wrong reasons which led to these rules.
3
Jun 23, 2009 at 07:16 PM Anonymous Says:
“ The Syrian community no longer accepts converts either
No-one has a problem with them??? ”
For totally different reasons.
4
Jun 23, 2009 at 09:26 PM ravnuchemke Says:
us jews are taking in way too many converts...i feel as a jew that we are loosing our identity and culture in america
5
Jun 23, 2009 at 09:06 PM Milhouse Says:
ורבים מעמי הארץ מתיהדים. The posuk mentions this as a good thing. So is עמים הר יקראו. We're approaching Moshiach's tzeiten, when ומלאה הארץ דעה את ה׳.
In the meantime, those who reject such people have a heavy burden to bear. לא הגלה הקדוש ברוך הוא את ישראל לבין האומות, אלא כדי שיתוספו עליהם גרים. It's clear that Hashem wants gerim, that He sent us out into the world in order to give those people the chance to come under the wings of the shechina, so what right do we have to refuse them when they come knocking on our doors?
Look in hilchos gerus, where it says clearly that while we have to make sure a candidate for conversion is sincere, and knows what he's getting himself into, we must be careful not to scare him away if he is sincere. It is a myth that we discourage conversion (let alone the bizarre notion that we must turn someone away three times). On the contrary, we very much want converts, but only if they're going to stick around for the long haul.
ואין מרבין עליו ואין מדקדקין עליו, שמא יגרום לטורדו ולהטותו מדרך טובה לדרך רעה. שבתחילה אין מושכין את האדם אלא בדברי רצון רכים; וכן הוא אומר "בחבלי אדם אמשכם", ואחר כך "בעבותות אהבה". וכשם שמודיעין אותו עונשן של מצוות, כך מודיעין אותו שכרן של מצוות...ואומרים לו, הוי יודע שהעולם הבא אינו צפון אלא לצדיקים, והם ישראל... ומאריכין בדבר זה, כדי לחבבו
6
Jun 23, 2009 at 08:51 PM Anonymous Says:
Can someone please explain why the syrian community doesn't accept converts.
It seems contrary to the teachings of the Torah.
7
Jun 23, 2009 at 08:40 PM Anonymous Says:
In Panama the Jewish community also does not accept converts.
8
Jun 23, 2009 at 08:38 PM Anonymous Says:
“ The Syrian community no longer accepts converts either
No-one has a problem with them??? ”
As others have said, they haven't accepted them since the early 20th century. Moreover, they don't refuse the children of converts.
9
Jun 23, 2009 at 09:48 PM Anonymous Says:
I know the country of Panama sends all would-be converts to Miami where they have to start the whole conversion process from scratch. The former Chief Rabbi of Panama, alav ha shalom, did not want the achrayos of making non-Jews into Jews when it took all of his kochos to keep the born-Jews Jewish. The problem in Latin America in general is that the standard of living for Jews is MUCH GREATER than for Christians, which is a reason to be skeptical of a Christian who wants to convert (especially women). Also, vestiges of the Inquisition still exist in Latin America, which adds to the overall suspicion of would-be converts. And here is the sticking point: most Latin American Jews are shaky (at best) in their commitment to authentic Jewish practice (given the hot, humid climate and warmth of the native culture and dearth of kashrus) so it is impossible to "police" new converts. It is pert near impossible in the tropics to get natural-born Jewish women to wear a snood (much less a sheitel) and to cover up on the beach and to not dance the samba with men in public.....how do you get a Convert to forgo all of these tempting aspects of life, including forgoing their former families' annual "X-mas" parties? It is near impossible. But for those converts who do make the switch successfully, and divorce themselves from their non-Jewish background, they have a big z'chus and a place in Gan Eden.
One last word: If the Syrian community were as globally frum and knowledgeable and practicing of halacha as their Ashkenazi brethren in the earlier parts of the last century, then they would not have needed the banning of converts, because the inherent stringencies and demands of Jewish life would have sufficed to dissuade insincere converts from the very beginning.
10
Jun 23, 2009 at 09:57 PM Syrian from east 7 th Says:
“ Can someone please explain why the syrian community doesn't accept converts.
It seems contrary to the teachings of the Torah. ”
Go into any one of the Shuls (fifty of them) in Brooklyn or deal nj. And you'll see the proclomation.
Pick up by artscroll the book called Allepo and it's explained there.
Wikipedia it too "Syrian community"
11
Jun 23, 2009 at 09:51 PM Anonymous Says:
“ ורבים מעמי הארץ מתיהדים. The posuk mentions this as a good thing. So is עמים הר יקראו. We're approaching Moshiach's tzeiten, when ומלאה הארץ דעה את ה׳.
In the meantime, those who reject such people have a heavy burden to bear. לא הגלה הקדוש ברוך הוא את ישראל לבין האומות, אלא כדי שיתוספו עליהם גרים. It's clear that Hashem wants gerim, that He sent us out into the world in order to give those people the chance to come under the wings of the shechina, so what right do we have to refuse them when they come knocking on our doors?
Look in hilchos gerus, where it says clearly that while we have to make sure a candidate for conversion is sincere, and knows what he's getting himself into, we must be careful not to scare him away if he is sincere. It is a myth that we discourage conversion (let alone the bizarre notion that we must turn someone away three times). On the contrary, we very much want converts, but only if they're going to stick around for the long haul.
ואין מרבין עליו ואין מדקדקין עליו, שמא יגרום לטורדו ולהטותו מדרך טובה לדרך רעה. שבתחילה אין מושכין את האדם אלא בדברי רצון רכים; וכן הוא אומר "בחבלי אדם אמשכם", ואחר כך "בעבותות אהבה". וכשם שמודיעין אותו עונשן של מצוות, כך מודיעין אותו שכרן של מצוות...ואומרים לו, הוי יודע שהעולם הבא אינו צפון אלא לצדיקים, והם ישראל... ומאריכין בדבר זה, כדי לחבבו ”
Should we assume poster #5 looked into the situation personally before maligning the rabbonim who discouraged the acceptance of their conversions?
After at would be pretty foolish for someone to have so much to say on the subject without knowing more facts than what was written in this article.
12
Jun 23, 2009 at 10:06 PM Syrian brooklyn Says:
“ I know the country of Panama sends all would-be converts to Miami where they have to start the whole conversion process from scratch. The former Chief Rabbi of Panama, alav ha shalom, did not want the achrayos of making non-Jews into Jews when it took all of his kochos to keep the born-Jews Jewish. The problem in Latin America in general is that the standard of living for Jews is MUCH GREATER than for Christians, which is a reason to be skeptical of a Christian who wants to convert (especially women). Also, vestiges of the Inquisition still exist in Latin America, which adds to the overall suspicion of would-be converts. And here is the sticking point: most Latin American Jews are shaky (at best) in their commitment to authentic Jewish practice (given the hot, humid climate and warmth of the native culture and dearth of kashrus) so it is impossible to "police" new converts. It is pert near impossible in the tropics to get natural-born Jewish women to wear a snood (much less a sheitel) and to cover up on the beach and to not dance the samba with men in public.....how do you get a Convert to forgo all of these tempting aspects of life, including forgoing their former families' annual "X-mas" parties? It is near impossible. But for those converts who do make the switch successfully, and divorce themselves from their non-Jewish background, they have a big z'chus and a place in Gan Eden.
One last word: If the Syrian community were as globally frum and knowledgeable and practicing of halacha as their Ashkenazi brethren in the earlier parts of the last century, then they would not have needed the banning of converts, because the inherent stringencies and demands of Jewish life would have sufficed to dissuade insincere converts from the very beginning. ”
Stupidity!!!!!
This lack of frumkeit today is only recent back 80 years ago they were very frum
my grandfather was already a American born frum Syria in 1919.
And just look at this point when you look to a family to get married don't you wanna know exactly where they came from??(not that there is anything wrong with converts but it's certainly easier to do research in the Syrian comm).
13
Jun 23, 2009 at 10:01 PM Syrian brooklyn Says:
“ As others have said, they haven't accepted them since the early 20th century. Moreover, they don't refuse the children of converts. ”
You should just know how political what you just said about the children
I myself am a relative of one of the "white hat" rabbis where I am a regular "black hat" yeshiva guy.
I'm in the middle of it all
how to translate the original proclamation is very very very political which was done I think in 2006 for the 4th or 5th time and there was alot of heat then
14
Jun 23, 2009 at 10:00 PM Anonymous Says:
lets remember that r' moshe says that the only converts that should be accepted are those that convert "ma'azmom" - completely from their own desire without any outside influence. that would taint a large percentage of orthodox converts that are doing it because of various other reasons such as romance adoption community pressure.
yosher coach to the sephardi jews standing up to this fraud.
15
Jun 24, 2009 at 04:16 AM Anonymous Says:
“ lets remember that r' moshe says that the only converts that should be accepted are those that convert "ma'azmom" - completely from their own desire without any outside influence. that would taint a large percentage of orthodox converts that are doing it because of various other reasons such as romance adoption community pressure.
yosher coach to the sephardi jews standing up to this fraud.
”
Can you tell me where to find this teshuva?
16
Jun 24, 2009 at 02:09 AM Miami Yid Says:
As a Yid who grew up in Miami, I have worked with many latin americans and I can tell you that they are tremendously effected by their Catholic education. The Catholic Church runs the education system in Latin America and South America. There is a definite anti-yiddish influence. The Latin American Church never reformed.
There is also a new influence of the evangelical churches in Latin and South America. The evangelists are very popular there due the charitable work they perform in health care and education for the poor there. Many thousands have left the Catholic Church to join those groups. I have met several deeply faithful evangelicals who become profoundly interested in discussing Judiasm with me when they learn I am a religous yid. Perhaps they are descendants of lost yidden and they have neshamas. Who knows.
Also, a negative influence may be due to the left wing socialist Jews of their countries who worked against the conservative totalitarian rule in their countries, for example Argentina. I knew an Argentinian whose father hated frum yidden from his experience there for what ever reason. I didn't stay too long around him to find out.
I can, therefore, see what worries the yidden in those countries.
17
Jun 24, 2009 at 01:11 AM myth? Says:
“ ורבים מעמי הארץ מתיהדים. The posuk mentions this as a good thing. So is עמים הר יקראו. We're approaching Moshiach's tzeiten, when ומלאה הארץ דעה את ה׳.
In the meantime, those who reject such people have a heavy burden to bear. לא הגלה הקדוש ברוך הוא את ישראל לבין האומות, אלא כדי שיתוספו עליהם גרים. It's clear that Hashem wants gerim, that He sent us out into the world in order to give those people the chance to come under the wings of the shechina, so what right do we have to refuse them when they come knocking on our doors?
Look in hilchos gerus, where it says clearly that while we have to make sure a candidate for conversion is sincere, and knows what he's getting himself into, we must be careful not to scare him away if he is sincere. It is a myth that we discourage conversion (let alone the bizarre notion that we must turn someone away three times). On the contrary, we very much want converts, but only if they're going to stick around for the long haul.
ואין מרבין עליו ואין מדקדקין עליו, שמא יגרום לטורדו ולהטותו מדרך טובה לדרך רעה. שבתחילה אין מושכין את האדם אלא בדברי רצון רכים; וכן הוא אומר "בחבלי אדם אמשכם", ואחר כך "בעבותות אהבה". וכשם שמודיעין אותו עונשן של מצוות, כך מודיעין אותו שכרן של מצוות...ואומרים לו, הוי יודע שהעולם הבא אינו צפון אלא לצדיקים, והם ישראל... ומאריכין בדבר זה, כדי לחבבו ”
Myth?? try rashi on megilas rus
18
Jun 24, 2009 at 07:03 AM Milhouse Says:
“ Myth?? try rashi on megilas rus ”
What about it? Where do you find any support for this myth there? On the contrary, Rashi says exactly what I did, that we must be careful NOT to scare away anyone who might be for real. We must give the candidate a realistic view of what he's getting himself into, but we must not exaggerate, and we must NOT turn him away even once, let alone three times.
19
Jun 24, 2009 at 07:03 AM Anonymous Says:
to #15
it is in yoreh deah vol 1 under adoptions, the last paragraph. i will ck later and post the page number from igras moshe.
i would bet that 99% + are unaware of that because orthodox jews must follow liberal attitudes or fear being called racist.
20
Jun 24, 2009 at 06:56 AM Milhouse Says:
“ lets remember that r' moshe says that the only converts that should be accepted are those that convert "ma'azmom" - completely from their own desire without any outside influence. that would taint a large percentage of orthodox converts that are doing it because of various other reasons such as romance adoption community pressure.
yosher coach to the sephardi jews standing up to this fraud.
”
Actually, he says it's up to the local beis din. In numerous teshuvos he says that if the beis din decides that in a particular situation it's appropriate to convert someone for marriage, they have the right, and the conversion is valid.
And why do you mention adoption? Conversion of infants al daas beis din has always been accepted.
21
Jun 24, 2009 at 07:11 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Actually, he says it's up to the local beis din. In numerous teshuvos he says that if the beis din decides that in a particular situation it's appropriate to convert someone for marriage, they have the right, and the conversion is valid.
And why do you mention adoption? Conversion of infants al daas beis din has always been accepted. ”
#14 wrote what Rav Moshe a"h said SHOULD be done, not what COULD be done.
22
Jun 24, 2009 at 07:22 AM FAL Says:
This also reminds me of the recent article about Charles Taylor (the murderer) from Liberia who has suddenly converted to Judaism. These are people who are attempting to protect their futures by supposedly becoming Jewish so that they are treated well by the Jewish community and can live off other Jews safely in Israel by instituting the 'law of return' when it becomes necessary.
23
Jun 24, 2009 at 08:13 AM Raphael Kaufman Says:
I happen to be in Colombia as I write this. The situation in Latin America is completely different from the issue that the Syrian community faces. Latin America has thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people who are descended from Conversos or actual Marranos. Even though they were raised as Catholics for many generations, the still maintain some Jewish traditions. I have personally met people and families that, although they are devout Catholics, light Shabbos lecht. I have also met people and families that have traditional Jewish last names such as Amaral and Senior. In some cases I have pointed out to these folks that they probably have Jewish ancestors and might possibly be technically (halachically) Jewish. In my opinion the flood of would be gerim here in Colombia represents, at least in part, desire to return to their roots, real or imagined. Also add to the mix the fact that Colombia has extremely close and cordial relations with Israel. Many Colombians, Jewish or otherwise, have visited Israel and Colombia is a prime vacation destination for Israelis.
Almost all of the practicing Jews here in Colombia are, or are children of, war refugees from Europe. Remember that during the war when the good ol' USA refused entry to Jews fleeing Hitler Y'S, many Latin American countries accepted the refugees. The European Askenazi Jews are very nervous about accepting converts who they view as really Catholic or REALLY Sephardic.
24
Jun 24, 2009 at 10:05 AM Hey Says:
“ I happen to be in Colombia as I write this. The situation in Latin America is completely different from the issue that the Syrian community faces. Latin America has thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people who are descended from Conversos or actual Marranos. Even though they were raised as Catholics for many generations, the still maintain some Jewish traditions. I have personally met people and families that, although they are devout Catholics, light Shabbos lecht. I have also met people and families that have traditional Jewish last names such as Amaral and Senior. In some cases I have pointed out to these folks that they probably have Jewish ancestors and might possibly be technically (halachically) Jewish. In my opinion the flood of would be gerim here in Colombia represents, at least in part, desire to return to their roots, real or imagined. Also add to the mix the fact that Colombia has extremely close and cordial relations with Israel. Many Colombians, Jewish or otherwise, have visited Israel and Colombia is a prime vacation destination for Israelis.
Almost all of the practicing Jews here in Colombia are, or are children of, war refugees from Europe. Remember that during the war when the good ol' USA refused entry to Jews fleeing Hitler Y'S, many Latin American countries accepted the refugees. The European Askenazi Jews are very nervous about accepting converts who they view as really Catholic or REALLY Sephardic. ”
Are you putting the Sephardic and Catholic as one???
25
Jun 24, 2009 at 08:58 AM Anonymous Says:
The SY community stopped accepting Gerim because they were converting on ly to marry Jews - not to be Jewish. So to stop assimilation, they banned Gerus. They dont recognize Reform or COnservative. ALl shuls are Orthodox. So not so frum sfardim go to shul on SHabbos but then go to the mall, the beach, business, etc. To fight that influence in the shul, they banned Gerus. The Colombian Jews are probably COnversos offspring. If true Catholics looked at their teachings, they would find they are supposed to observe all of the Torah. SOmewhere they developed the notion of celibacy and "dispensation" from observing Mitzvohs. Evangelicals and other modern Christians view that as corrupt and the influence of Pagans who became Christians and couldnt or wouldnt observe mitzvohs so the CHurch did away with them out of convenience. A true Christian would observe all the Torah and merley believe Mosiach arrived in the form of Oso Haish.
26
Jun 24, 2009 at 11:00 AM Don't Bash the SY Gezeira! Says:
All Syrian couples are required to pass strict marriage preparation and keep the laws of family purity, regardless of their level of observance. The Gezeira has nothing to do with lack of observance, every shul is Orthodox, and every home is Kosher. The trouble is that the community is so pure that introduction of non-Jewish relatives that result from marrying geirm would literally destroy us from the inside.
27
Jun 24, 2009 at 10:53 AM Don't Bash the SY Gezeira! Says:
In the times of David and Shlomo Ha Melech, the same rules applied! In times when there are more reasons to convert than to not, all conversions are to be viewed as suspect and prohibited. BTW, the only prohibition is against intermarriage, and only against the converts themselves, and their children. The grandchildren would have children who were eligible for marriage in the community, just like David Ha Melech.
28
Jun 24, 2009 at 10:52 AM Milhouse Says:
“ The SY community stopped accepting Gerim because they were converting on ly to marry Jews - not to be Jewish. So to stop assimilation, they banned Gerus. They dont recognize Reform or COnservative. ALl shuls are Orthodox. So not so frum sfardim go to shul on SHabbos but then go to the mall, the beach, business, etc. To fight that influence in the shul, they banned Gerus. The Colombian Jews are probably COnversos offspring. If true Catholics looked at their teachings, they would find they are supposed to observe all of the Torah. SOmewhere they developed the notion of celibacy and "dispensation" from observing Mitzvohs. Evangelicals and other modern Christians view that as corrupt and the influence of Pagans who became Christians and couldnt or wouldnt observe mitzvohs so the CHurch did away with them out of convenience. A true Christian would observe all the Torah and merley believe Mosiach arrived in the form of Oso Haish. ”
No, such a person would not be a Christian at all, by any definition.
29
Jun 24, 2009 at 11:30 AM Raphael Kaufman Says:
“ Are you putting the Sephardic and Catholic as one??? ”
C'mon! perhaps the concatination was akward but you know what I mean! The "or" in English implies eclusion as in one or the other, not both.
30
Jun 24, 2009 at 01:09 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Stupidity!!!!!
This lack of frumkeit today is only recent back 80 years ago they were very frum
my grandfather was already a American born frum Syria in 1919.
And just look at this point when you look to a family to get married don't you wanna know exactly where they came from??(not that there is anything wrong with converts but it's certainly easier to do research in the Syrian comm). ”
There was NO universal covering of the hair among Syrian women like there was in Europe with the Ashkenazim in the early 20th century.....don't make up bubbe maises.
31
Jun 24, 2009 at 01:13 PM Anonymous Says:
“ All Syrian couples are required to pass strict marriage preparation and keep the laws of family purity, regardless of their level of observance. The Gezeira has nothing to do with lack of observance, every shul is Orthodox, and every home is Kosher. The trouble is that the community is so pure that introduction of non-Jewish relatives that result from marrying geirm would literally destroy us from the inside. ”
Gerim are to be treated like newborns with no family. They are supposed to dissolve their ties to their natural born families, that is why converting is so hard and NOT for the average person. (Only for very exceptional, commmited people.) A ger is NOT supposed to bring into the fold non-Jewish relatives (unless they also convert, like Tzipporah and Yisro).
32
Jun 24, 2009 at 01:03 PM Milhouse Says:
“ In the times of David and Shlomo Ha Melech, the same rules applied! In times when there are more reasons to convert than to not, all conversions are to be viewed as suspect and prohibited. BTW, the only prohibition is against intermarriage, and only against the converts themselves, and their children. The grandchildren would have children who were eligible for marriage in the community, just like David Ha Melech. ”
It certainly did not! At that time the batei din didn't accept CANDIDATES for conversion, because it was difficult to sort out who meant it and who didn't, but they didn't chas veshalom reject those who did convert! There were plenty of people who formed ad hoc batei din and did convert people, and those conversions were accepted as valid. Once a person is Jewish, even if you would not have accepted him for conversion, you MUST accept him as a fellow Jew and treat him the same as anyone else. To discriminate against them AND THEIR CHILDREN as the SY community does is against the Torah.
33
Jun 24, 2009 at 01:54 PM esther Says:
“ As a Yid who grew up in Miami, I have worked with many latin americans and I can tell you that they are tremendously effected by their Catholic education. The Catholic Church runs the education system in Latin America and South America. There is a definite anti-yiddish influence. The Latin American Church never reformed.
There is also a new influence of the evangelical churches in Latin and South America. The evangelists are very popular there due the charitable work they perform in health care and education for the poor there. Many thousands have left the Catholic Church to join those groups. I have met several deeply faithful evangelicals who become profoundly interested in discussing Judiasm with me when they learn I am a religous yid. Perhaps they are descendants of lost yidden and they have neshamas. Who knows.
Also, a negative influence may be due to the left wing socialist Jews of their countries who worked against the conservative totalitarian rule in their countries, for example Argentina. I knew an Argentinian whose father hated frum yidden from his experience there for what ever reason. I didn't stay too long around him to find out.
I can, therefore, see what worries the yidden in those countries. ”
your post is interesting and insightful however when it comes to chatting with evagelicals on religion i have found,in every instance,that they are really only interested in converting jews CV"S so i just never have those types of conversations.
34
Jun 24, 2009 at 01:27 PM Anonymous Says:
“ lets remember that r' moshe says that the only converts that should be accepted are those that convert "ma'azmom" - completely from their own desire without any outside influence. that would taint a large percentage of orthodox converts that are doing it because of various other reasons such as romance adoption community pressure.
yosher coach to the sephardi jews standing up to this fraud.
”
Converting tinokim is considered a "z'chus" for the baby and that is why we universally do it. Regarding "romance"....most Rabbis will not start instructing a ger/giures until they determine they are not dating a Jew. They must be single and unattached at the beginning of the process. There are occasions when a non-Jewish woman who is already married to a Jew can convert (even while pregnant) but these are RARE occasions and have to be considered on an individual basis.
35
Jun 24, 2009 at 01:22 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I happen to be in Colombia as I write this. The situation in Latin America is completely different from the issue that the Syrian community faces. Latin America has thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people who are descended from Conversos or actual Marranos. Even though they were raised as Catholics for many generations, the still maintain some Jewish traditions. I have personally met people and families that, although they are devout Catholics, light Shabbos lecht. I have also met people and families that have traditional Jewish last names such as Amaral and Senior. In some cases I have pointed out to these folks that they probably have Jewish ancestors and might possibly be technically (halachically) Jewish. In my opinion the flood of would be gerim here in Colombia represents, at least in part, desire to return to their roots, real or imagined. Also add to the mix the fact that Colombia has extremely close and cordial relations with Israel. Many Colombians, Jewish or otherwise, have visited Israel and Colombia is a prime vacation destination for Israelis.
Almost all of the practicing Jews here in Colombia are, or are children of, war refugees from Europe. Remember that during the war when the good ol' USA refused entry to Jews fleeing Hitler Y'S, many Latin American countries accepted the refugees. The European Askenazi Jews are very nervous about accepting converts who they view as really Catholic or REALLY Sephardic. ”
Those Colombian Jews are most probably the result of young Jewish bachelors who left established Jewish communities in Curacao, Jamaica, St. Eustacius, St. Thomas and Suriname and married with local Catholic women. This sad fact is recounted in Mordechai Arbell's book "The Jewish Nation of the Caribbean" and an essay called "The Girls they Left Behind" written by Josette Capriles Goldish, how the young Jewish men of Curacao sought economic opportunity in other Latin American countries but didn't bring Jewish wives into this wild territory. Too many years of intermarriage have passed for these people to be considered Jewish. The best thing is to leave them alone and if they want to become Jewish, they have to figure out on their own how to do it, like any other ordinary convert. Most people do not have it in them to completely alter their lifestyle and leave their gentile family behind but the ones who do make it are rewarded.
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Jun 24, 2009 at 03:08 PM Anonymous Says:
“ us jews are taking in way too many converts...i feel as a jew that we are loosing our identity and culture in america ”
Yes well we are also losing many jews to assimilation, so the ger tzedek is loved and welcome by HKBH, so are you above Hashem to make such a statement? Ponder for a minute...Rabbi Akiva, David HaMelech, Rabbi Meir Bal Ha Ness, Moshiach himself (may he come speedily)....Do any of these Tzaddikim have anything in common?
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Jun 24, 2009 at 03:06 PM true Says:
“ us jews are taking in way too many converts...i feel as a jew that we are loosing our identity and culture in america ”
accepting people who wish to be jewish is fine. you are right though that america is losing its "jewish" culture. we have replaced yiddish with hebrew. the love of torah, with militant nationalism for israel. ashkenazi american jews forget their european past and that is why our unique and diverse language, yiddish gets replaced by hebrew (which by the way is not actually old, biblical hebrew.)
what reminds of you of jewish culture?
gefilte fish, kenedele and oi vey!!!
or
shwarma, falafel and yalla habibi walla!!!
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Jun 24, 2009 at 05:01 PM moish Says:
“ It certainly did not! At that time the batei din didn't accept CANDIDATES for conversion, because it was difficult to sort out who meant it and who didn't, but they didn't chas veshalom reject those who did convert! There were plenty of people who formed ad hoc batei din and did convert people, and those conversions were accepted as valid. Once a person is Jewish, even if you would not have accepted him for conversion, you MUST accept him as a fellow Jew and treat him the same as anyone else. To discriminate against them AND THEIR CHILDREN as the SY community does is against the Torah. ”
Do you have proof for all this or is it only an assumption? Bec. the pashtus loshon of the gemoro is definitely not mashma like that לא קיבלו גרים לא בימי דוד ולא בימי שלמה
Furthermore, if they are coming to live in israel bec it is a better life than their country it applies the hemshech of the gemoro הן גר יגור אפס מאותי מי גר אתך עליך יפול אבל אידך לא
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Jun 25, 2009 at 10:47 AM Milhouse Says:
“ Do you have proof for all this or is it only an assumption? Bec. the pashtus loshon of the gemoro is definitely not mashma like that לא קיבלו גרים לא בימי דוד ולא בימי שלמה
Furthermore, if they are coming to live in israel bec it is a better life than their country it applies the hemshech of the gemoro הן גר יגור אפס מאותי מי גר אתך עליך יפול אבל אידך לא
”
ואף על פי כן היו גרים הרבה מתגיירים בימי דויד ושלמה, בפני הדיוטות. והיו בית דין הגדול חוששין להם, לא דוחין אותן, אחר שטבלו מכל מקום; ולא מקרבין אותן, עד שתיראה אחריתם.
The meaning of חוששין is obscure, because the Rambam doesn't go on to give any procedure for determining the matter, or even hint at such a procedure. He goes on to say about the ger that חוששין לו עד שיתבאר צדקותו, that nevertheless אפילו חזר ועבד עבודה זרה--הרי הוא כישראל משומד, שקידושיו קידושין; ומצוה להחזיר אבידתו, מאחר שטבל נעשה כישראל. ולפיכך קיים שמשון ושלמה נשותיהן, ואף על פי שנגלה סודן. So whatever this חוששין means, it does NOT mean that one may reject him, EVEN IF he serves AZ! So when CAN one reject him?!
It follows that all the dinim of loving a ger and not oppressing him apply even to such a ger that חוששין לו . Because those are dinim de'oraisa, just as much as any others, so how can one be mekil in them?
So what does חוששין לו mean? It seems to me it can only mean that even though he is a yid and we must treat him as one, we should avoid marrying him or trusting him as a mashgiach, etc. עד שיתבאר צדקותו. In other words, כבדהו וחשדהו. Do you have another explanation that's consistent with the halacha I quoted above?
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Jun 25, 2009 at 02:14 PM moish Says:
“ ואף על פי כן היו גרים הרבה מתגיירים בימי דויד ושלמה, בפני הדיוטות. והיו בית דין הגדול חוששין להם, לא דוחין אותן, אחר שטבלו מכל מקום; ולא מקרבין אותן, עד שתיראה אחריתם.
The meaning of חוששין is obscure, because the Rambam doesn't go on to give any procedure for determining the matter, or even hint at such a procedure. He goes on to say about the ger that חוששין לו עד שיתבאר צדקותו, that nevertheless אפילו חזר ועבד עבודה זרה--הרי הוא כישראל משומד, שקידושיו קידושין; ומצוה להחזיר אבידתו, מאחר שטבל נעשה כישראל. ולפיכך קיים שמשון ושלמה נשותיהן, ואף על פי שנגלה סודן. So whatever this חוששין means, it does NOT mean that one may reject him, EVEN IF he serves AZ! So when CAN one reject him?!
It follows that all the dinim of loving a ger and not oppressing him apply even to such a ger that חוששין לו . Because those are dinim de'oraisa, just as much as any others, so how can one be mekil in them?
So what does חוששין לו mean? It seems to me it can only mean that even though he is a yid and we must treat him as one, we should avoid marrying him or trusting him as a mashgiach, etc. עד שיתבאר צדקותו. In other words, כבדהו וחשדהו. Do you have another explanation that's consistent with the halacha I quoted above? ”
You are probably right in the pshat of חוששין, but just one he'oro, when he writes ואפילו חזר ועבד ע''ז כו', that is after נתבאר צדקותו, that is after we saw אחריתם is a torah true jew, then we do not need to be חושש anymore, and if after that he was oved a"z he is like any yid that was oved a"z, but if he was oved a"z before נתבאר צדקותו, then it was proven that he wasn't genuine.
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Jun 26, 2009 at 03:57 PM Milhouse Says:
“ You are probably right in the pshat of חוששין, but just one he'oro, when he writes ואפילו חזר ועבד ע''ז כו', that is after נתבאר צדקותו, that is after we saw אחריתם is a torah true jew, then we do not need to be חושש anymore, and if after that he was oved a"z he is like any yid that was oved a"z, but if he was oved a"z before נתבאר צדקותו, then it was proven that he wasn't genuine.
”
Where do you get this from? That's not what the Rambam says. Note that he says "מאחר שטבל", not "מאחר שנתבאר צדקותו". The straightforward meaning of his words is that he's talking about someone who was NOT נתבאר צדקותו, but on the contrary went and served AZ; THIS is the person whom the Rambam tells us must be treated just like any yid who does the same thing. He's talking about Shlomo's and Shimshon's wives, after their secret was exposed -- אף על פי שנגלה סודן-- and says they were still Jewish. When was their צדקות ever נתבאר before they "backslid"?! And if they were still to be treated as Jewish, and subject to "vaahavtem es hager" and "lo sonu oso", kal vachomer Rav Druckman's gerim!