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California - An Eruv Grows in San Francisco |
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Rabbi Joshua Strulowitz of San Francisco's Orthodox Adath Israel watches as Supervisor Carmen Chu and Police Chief Heather Fong sign papers granting Jews the right to do an Eruv to carry objects on the Sabbath.photo credit: Stacey Palevsky
That's because the community, with the help of local leaders, established an eruv.
Traditionally, an eruv is a series of boundaries that describe a communal space which is considered private, so biblical laws against carrying things from a private to a public place don't apply.
Eruvs are not always popular -- it took a congregation in Palo Alto eight years to finally get theirs officially established.
For instance, now mothers will be able to bring their children, even pushing them in strollers, to synagogue.
The new eruv is located in the Sunset District, and is largely bordered by telephone lines and poles.
And of course, since it's San Francisco, the eruv has a Twitter account 
and Rabbi Joshua Strulowitz notified the congregation of the new Eruv via Twitter.
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Read Comments (68) — Post Yours »
1
Jun 23, 2009 at 09:30 PM Anonymous Says:
There r screamers out their also???? Mabey they should import some from willi
2
Jun 23, 2009 at 09:29 PM Anonymous Says:
vos is a twitter ??
;-)
Eruv - what eruv... only in Brooklyn we cant get our act together...
even in small areas...
3
Jun 23, 2009 at 09:19 PM edison Says:
new invention wirless eruv
4
Jun 23, 2009 at 09:37 PM Bunimfrombrooklyn Says:
All we need is more politicts!!!!!!!!!!!!
5
Jun 23, 2009 at 10:09 PM jimmy37 Says:
Wasn't it the Hamptons or some such ritzy place where the frieh Jews voted down an eruv, saying that it would encourage the wrong people to come and make the place feel so Eastern European?
6
Jun 23, 2009 at 10:06 PM Anonymous Says:
While eruvs are important, in relative terms, too much money and time is spent on trying to get eruvim in place in many cities than focusing on getting a quality yeshiva, mikvahs, kosher markets, etc. many rabbonim are skeptical about the legitimacy of many of the eruvs that are built and others question the whole concept of whether an eruv can be assumed to consolidate multiple properties within a single chatzer. Bottom line: Focus on whats important.
7
Jun 23, 2009 at 11:05 PM Anonymous Says:
#6 so when i deicide to donate for eruv you are going to dictate to what cause i should give .no, it doesnt work that way, you donate to what you think is right and dont tell me what to do!!
8
Jun 23, 2009 at 10:54 PM Anonymous Says:
“ While eruvs are important, in relative terms, too much money and time is spent on trying to get eruvim in place in many cities than focusing on getting a quality yeshiva, mikvahs, kosher markets, etc. many rabbonim are skeptical about the legitimacy of many of the eruvs that are built and others question the whole concept of whether an eruv can be assumed to consolidate multiple properties within a single chatzer. Bottom line: Focus on whats important. ”
important is a mitzvah like an eruv so poeple would relax on shabbos
9
Jun 23, 2009 at 10:49 PM Anonymous Says:
“ While eruvs are important, in relative terms, too much money and time is spent on trying to get eruvim in place in many cities than focusing on getting a quality yeshiva, mikvahs, kosher markets, etc. many rabbonim are skeptical about the legitimacy of many of the eruvs that are built and others question the whole concept of whether an eruv can be assumed to consolidate multiple properties within a single chatzer. Bottom line: Focus on whats important. ”
And an eiruv is very important for orthodox jews and there is whole mesachtes on them
10
Jun 23, 2009 at 10:48 PM San francisco Says:
is there a minyan of shomer shabbos in san francisco, I think not. I lived there. The Sunset distric is a midbar. L'man bonecha move out of san francisco rabbi!
11
Jun 23, 2009 at 10:45 PM yoelish Says:
“ While eruvs are important, in relative terms, too much money and time is spent on trying to get eruvim in place in many cities than focusing on getting a quality yeshiva, mikvahs, kosher markets, etc. many rabbonim are skeptical about the legitimacy of many of the eruvs that are built and others question the whole concept of whether an eruv can be assumed to consolidate multiple properties within a single chatzer. Bottom line: Focus on whats important. ”
Bottom line: Focus on whats important.” Are you kidding? What do you know about the San Francisco Jewish community? Have you ever spent time there?
I spent many summers there and can tell you that an Eiruv is very conducive to the needs of the community.
Perhaps it is you that should FOCUS ON WHATS IM PORTANT!
12
Jun 24, 2009 at 06:32 AM Milhouse Says:
“ Wasn't it the Hamptons or some such ritzy place where the frieh Jews voted down an eruv, saying that it would encourage the wrong people to come and make the place feel so Eastern European? ”
No, they didn't SAY that! It's what they were thinking, but they're too smart to say it out loud.
13
Jun 24, 2009 at 06:31 AM Milhouse Says:
“ vos is a twitter ??
;-)
Eruv - what eruv... only in Brooklyn we cant get our act together...
even in small areas... ”
There are many eruvin in Brooklyn. You don't have to carry in them if you don't want to, but they exist. There's even one person who goes around putting up secret eruvin in parts of Brooklyn where you would never think to see one, just to save people from chilul shabbos.
14
Jun 24, 2009 at 03:19 AM Anonymous Says:
“ While eruvs are important, in relative terms, too much money and time is spent on trying to get eruvim in place in many cities than focusing on getting a quality yeshiva, mikvahs, kosher markets, etc. many rabbonim are skeptical about the legitimacy of many of the eruvs that are built and others question the whole concept of whether an eruv can be assumed to consolidate multiple properties within a single chatzer. Bottom line: Focus on whats important. ”
Clearly, you are a man who doesn't care if his wife is imprisoned in the house every Shabbos until the youngest is able to walk. If men had to stay home with the kids, all eruv problems would be solved in a day.
15
Jun 24, 2009 at 06:38 AM Milhouse Says:
“ is there a minyan of shomer shabbos in san francisco, I think not. I lived there. The Sunset distric is a midbar. L'man bonecha move out of san francisco rabbi! ”
There is much more than a minyan.
16
Jun 24, 2009 at 06:37 AM Milhouse Says:
“ While eruvs are important, in relative terms, too much money and time is spent on trying to get eruvim in place in many cities than focusing on getting a quality yeshiva, mikvahs, kosher markets, etc. many rabbonim are skeptical about the legitimacy of many of the eruvs that are built and others question the whole concept of whether an eruv can be assumed to consolidate multiple properties within a single chatzer. Bottom line: Focus on whats important. ”
If you're skeptical about a particular eruv's validity, suggest improvements. And who questions "the whole concept of whether an eruv can be assumed to consolidate multiple properties within a single chatzer"? In general we don't have a lot of chatzeros in modern cities; that style of architecture isn't common any more. An apartment building is somewhat analogous, but not entirely. If you do, and there are at least two of them on the same street, then each of them must make a separate eruv, but that's only for the children's chinuch; it doesn't change the fact that the citywide eruv includes them.
17
Jun 24, 2009 at 12:00 AM Anon Says:
I know the rabbi he he a talmud chahcham.
18
Jun 24, 2009 at 07:11 AM boroparkyenta Says:
“ Clearly, you are a man who doesn't care if his wife is imprisoned in the house every Shabbos until the youngest is able to walk. If men had to stay home with the kids, all eruv problems would be solved in a day. ”
I am a woman who stayed at home but never felt imprisoned. I was grateful for the opportunity to be able to rest Shabos, and not expected to go out and attend every function. It was a pleasure to be able to sleep and enjoy those little babies. I have only the best of memories, because there was no eruv in those days, and we knew that the Rabonim were right in opposing it. Everything is about attitude. There were good reasons that so many Rabonim were against it. Today, those Rebbes are gone. Unfortunately, times have changed. And if a woman feels "imprisoned" she is probably not qualified to be a Yiddishe Mama.
19
Jun 24, 2009 at 08:26 AM Bruce Says:
Let`s call a spade a spade according to Reb Moshe Reb Ahron the Satmar Rov & the Lubavitcher Rebbe the eruv is not valid.
However in places where there is almost no shmiras shabbos such a San Fran we can warrant bending over backwards with Kulos.
However in BP Flatbush Crown Heights & Williamsburg we should expect more from well educated young men and women
20
Jun 24, 2009 at 09:21 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Let`s call a spade a spade according to Reb Moshe Reb Ahron the Satmar Rov & the Lubavitcher Rebbe the eruv is not valid.
However in places where there is almost no shmiras shabbos such a San Fran we can warrant bending over backwards with Kulos.
However in BP Flatbush Crown Heights & Williamsburg we should expect more from well educated young men and women ”
The Lubavitcher rebbe, whose yarhrtzeit we are about to celebrate, was very skeptical about most eruvs for "large" areas; the Satmer rebbe was much less machmir and would endorse just about any eruv. I don't know rav Moshe's position but he was generally very pragmatic on these issues.
21
Jun 24, 2009 at 09:18 AM yrachmiel Says:
#19 ..we know better as you say but not as you mean. we have poskim who we can rely on 100% on the boro-will eruv.
22
Jun 24, 2009 at 08:56 AM berel Says:
#18 it is because of the noshim tzidkonious that the the poske hador encouraged to establish eruv (where applicaple) also to avoid chilli shabbos as people forget sometimes its shabbos ,(chasm soifer O'C tsuvah 99)and also for mechallelie shabbos even they are myzid.. but the first reason mentioned i saw beshem hagoen hatzaddik rabbi weissmandel and geonim of such caliber. 'rai venochon lechol kehal yisroel becho mekom shehaim lesaken... eiruv...' ibid..
23
Jun 24, 2009 at 10:46 AM Milhouse Says:
“ The Lubavitcher rebbe, whose yarhrtzeit we are about to celebrate, was very skeptical about most eruvs for "large" areas; the Satmer rebbe was much less machmir and would endorse just about any eruv. I don't know rav Moshe's position but he was generally very pragmatic on these issues. ”
The LR was against establishing large eruvin on public policy grounds, but he did not doubt their kashrus!
24
Jun 24, 2009 at 10:44 AM Milhouse Says:
“ Let`s call a spade a spade according to Reb Moshe Reb Ahron the Satmar Rov & the Lubavitcher Rebbe the eruv is not valid.
However in places where there is almost no shmiras shabbos such a San Fran we can warrant bending over backwards with Kulos.
However in BP Flatbush Crown Heights & Williamsburg we should expect more from well educated young men and women ”
What on earth are you talking about? What makes you think any of the above would have said this eruv was not valid? You have no idea how it's constructed, so how can you possibly make such a pronouncement? Or are you alleging that they didn't believe ANY eruv was valid?!!! That would be the same as accusing them of denying the Torah! There is no need to "bend over backwards with kulos", but there's also no call for bending over backwards to search for obscure chumros. In mikvo'os there's a tradition to try to satisfy every opinion, no matter how isolated; there is no such tradition in eruvin. There is no reason at all why SF should not have a perfectly kosher eruv; whether this one fits the bill neither I nor you know, but there is a chazakah that a beis din knows what it is doing, and should not be questioned by anybody else.
25
Jun 24, 2009 at 10:41 AM Aryeh Says:
Unless your Rav holds that a car is a private dwelling, Ocean Parkway is a reshut ha rabim d'orita. 600,000 people cross it daily. How can anybody justify an eiruv around that? Mechalel Shabbos? What about mechalel eiruv? Anybody who wants a kosher eiruv can move to Seagate or Mea Shearim, but don't expect to see strollers with babies. BTW, anybody can get a babysitter on Shabbos if they want to go to shul for some reason, but most ladies only come for simchas if at all. This Young Israel idea of ladies in shul every week is very interesting, but leads to dangerous and issur situations.
26
Jun 24, 2009 at 12:04 PM leibel Says:
#25 ocean parkwy is not reshus huranbim, 600,000 are not including noshim ketanim under 20 and over 50 ...and cars are considered private dwelling and i dont have to move anywhere because i have here eruv...
27
Jun 24, 2009 at 11:47 AM Milhouse Says:
“ Unless your Rav holds that a car is a private dwelling, Ocean Parkway is a reshut ha rabim d'orita. 600,000 people cross it daily. How can anybody justify an eiruv around that? Mechalel Shabbos? What about mechalel eiruv? Anybody who wants a kosher eiruv can move to Seagate or Mea Shearim, but don't expect to see strollers with babies. BTW, anybody can get a babysitter on Shabbos if they want to go to shul for some reason, but most ladies only come for simchas if at all. This Young Israel idea of ladies in shul every week is very interesting, but leads to dangerous and issur situations. ”
1. EVERY rov holds that a car is a reshus hayochid. Anyone who says otherwise is not a rov, and should keep his mouth shut.
2. Where on earth did you get the idea that 600K people go along Ocean Parkway on any one day, let alone every day? This is a bizarre notion. Where are all these people coming from? There are only 2.5 million people in all of Brooklyn, and you think nearly a quarter of them drive down one road?
3. In any case, even if OP were a reshus horabim, how does that prevent an eruv? Since when can't you make an eruv in a RH?
4. What has any of this got to do with SF?
28
Jun 24, 2009 at 01:08 PM Anonymous Says:
Milhouse, I usually enjoy your posts, but if an area is classified as a rh'r, no one in the entire world holds you can make an eiruv in one.
29
Jun 24, 2009 at 03:51 PM sefardi Says:
The Many Sephardic Rabbis are against the Brooklyn Eruv because if we allow people to carry then no one will ever study the laws of hotzaah and muktze......
30
Jun 24, 2009 at 04:42 PM Milhouse Says:
“ The Many Sephardic Rabbis are against the Brooklyn Eruv because if we allow people to carry then no one will ever study the laws of hotzaah and muktze...... ”
Why is that not an issue anywhere else in the world? Why was it not an issue when the Rosh threatened to put a rov into cherem unless he made an eruv in his town?
31
Jun 24, 2009 at 04:41 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Milhouse, I usually enjoy your posts, but if an area is classified as a rh'r, no one in the entire world holds you can make an eiruv in one. ”
Of course you can. Do you think if you build a house you can't carry in it?! An eruv in a RHR has to be stronger than one in a karmelis, that's all.
32
Jun 24, 2009 at 07:58 PM chaskel Says:
#29 this cant be a reason, for then the whole inyon of eruv is botel . after all there are eruv all over the world and generations are growing up carring shabbos in them.
33
Jun 25, 2009 at 08:43 AM Bruce Says:
“ 1. EVERY rov holds that a car is a reshus hayochid. Anyone who says otherwise is not a rov, and should keep his mouth shut.
2. Where on earth did you get the idea that 600K people go along Ocean Parkway on any one day, let alone every day? This is a bizarre notion. Where are all these people coming from? There are only 2.5 million people in all of Brooklyn, and you think nearly a quarter of them drive down one road?
3. In any case, even if OP were a reshus horabim, how does that prevent an eruv? Since when can't you make an eruv in a RH?
4. What has any of this got to do with SF? ”
Millhouse.
Please read Reb Moshe`s Teshuva as well as LHBC Rav Shmuel Vosner both completely reject the idea that a travelling reshus hayachis is not mitztaref for 600,000.
With regard to 600k in OP please read the teshuva again Rav Moshe says that we look at the entire 12 mil squared if there is a constant 600k the Rosh says that the entire city is a Reshus Harabim(barring walled areas) and an eruv is impossible.
BTW the Rosh required a hinge on a tzuras Hapesach so the BP eruv is possul from this aspect as well.
The gemara in eruvin as paskened in Shulchan Aruch says that you cannot make an eruv in a reshus harabim the question is can a tzuras hapesach remove the status of Reshus HaRabim.
This has to do with SF because people should not think that because SF is a large metropolis we can be meikel in BP West Side CH & Williamsburg as well.
The reason why the Lubavitcher Rebbe opposed eruvin was because he felt that the sechurus reshus from a democratic government who needs permission to enter private property is a sham. LHBC Rav Elyashiv is of the same opinion.
34
Jun 25, 2009 at 10:34 AM Milhouse Says:
“ Millhouse.
Please read Reb Moshe`s Teshuva as well as LHBC Rav Shmuel Vosner both completely reject the idea that a travelling reshus hayachis is not mitztaref for 600,000.
With regard to 600k in OP please read the teshuva again Rav Moshe says that we look at the entire 12 mil squared if there is a constant 600k the Rosh says that the entire city is a Reshus Harabim(barring walled areas) and an eruv is impossible.
BTW the Rosh required a hinge on a tzuras Hapesach so the BP eruv is possul from this aspect as well.
The gemara in eruvin as paskened in Shulchan Aruch says that you cannot make an eruv in a reshus harabim the question is can a tzuras hapesach remove the status of Reshus HaRabim.
This has to do with SF because people should not think that because SF is a large metropolis we can be meikel in BP West Side CH & Williamsburg as well.
The reason why the Lubavitcher Rebbe opposed eruvin was because he felt that the sechurus reshus from a democratic government who needs permission to enter private property is a sham. LHBC Rav Elyashiv is of the same opinion.
”
1. I've read the teshuvah. It's not really relevant.
2. So what? The claim was "unless your Rav holds that a car is a private dwelling...". That claim is false. Every single rov in the world holds that a car is a reshus hayochid. End of story.
3. Again, so what? The claim was that "Ocean Parkway is a reshut ha rabim d'orita. 600,000 people cross it daily", and that claim is FALSE. End of story. People who make up nonsense are not legitimate participants in a discussion.
4. As for R Moshe's opinion that we look at the whole city (whether that's 12 mil squared, or any other definition he may have given), he's very much a daas yochid, and in any case the entire Brooklyn hasn't got the 3 million that he required. It's also surrounded by mechitzos on most of three sides. Whoever informed R Moshe of Brooklyn's demographics and geography was either negligent or lying, because he thought there were 600K people just in BP and Flatbush alone, and more than 3M in total, neither of which was even close to being true.
5. No requirement for a hinge is found in shulchon oruch or anywhere else. If the Rosh held so, he's a daas yochid.
6. There is no such gemoro, and no such psak in SA. You certainly can make an eruv in RHR. It has to be stronger than in a karmelis, but so what? Make it stronger. If you couldn't make an eruv in RHR you couldn't carry inside your house or garden!
7. A tzuras hapesach definitely removes the status of RHR. Even pasei biro'os does that.
8. That makes no sense at all; SF is SF, and not Brooklyn. Otherwise you'll have the same question about any large city, anywhere in the world. Every city in EY has an eruv.
9. If the sechiras reshus is faulty then that would apply even in a tiny village, and even on a single street. On the contrary, nowadays things are better because the streets belong to the city, not to the residents, so it certainly has the right to rent them out. In any case, the requirement for sechiras reshus is derabonon, a gezera to discourage yidden from living among goyim, so the rule that "halocho kedivrei hamekil be'eruv" applies.
35
Jun 26, 2009 at 09:29 AM Bruce Says:
1-You have to learn Rav Moshe Teshuva not read it.
2-As said previously Rav Moshe and LHBC the Shevet Halevi both say that not counting the cars in RHR is wrong since they are still counted as being in Reshus HaRabim i.e. if someone were to drive a car he has transgressed hotzaa.
3 & 4- Rav Moshe quotes a Rosh (the same Rosh who put the cherem) that says that we go with the city.
He also quotes the Rashba that according that is mechayev Dlasos in this type of scenario.
The Rambam 14:1 goes without saying that we have Reshus HaRabim in our days.
Rav Moshe also quotes a Ramban and Ritva who invalidate any eruv even with mechitzos gemuros if they extend more than 32 mil. (if you measure from tip to tip of Brooklyn you have more than 32 mil) in diamiter.
Please let me know exactly which Rishon would validate this eruv.
And Rav Moshe is only a daas yochid in his kula that one would need 3,000,000 in only a 12 mil area.
Rav Shlomo Zalman ZT"L & LHBC Rav Elyashiv stick with a strict 600,000 in the city limits.
5-The Mordechai also held so along with others see Mordechai(My question was how can you invoke the Teshuvas HaRosh when he invalidates)
Also they are only considered daas yochis in a Karmelis not where we will say sofek Torah
6- The Mishnah on daf 20a in eruvin is talking about pasei biraos that is where the machlokes of asi Rabim Umevatlei Mechitza is debated.
I hope you saw all the gemoros before you read Rav Moshes teshuva
7- When we are dealing with Baalei Teshuva we can be more meikel I would allow a BT to eat a piece of meat with a sub-standard hashgocho because he is still fragile.
People in BP & Flatbush should know how to learn and not make light of a sofek issur Torah. The reason they want to be meikel is to be porek ohl not shmeeras Shabbos.
The Agudas HaRabonim gave a psak not to allow eruvin in large metroplatin area as per Reb Moshe`s Hachraa
9- You do also need to be socher reshus from each goy in that has a front lawn that is pasuach to the chotzer.
This can be done if the city is has a quasi baalos i.e. a tefisas habayis
This is why the Rebbe ZT"L and LHBC Rav Elyashiv feel that one needs to be intellectually honest before saying that this was done in der heim.
Ulemaichash Mibai
A Gut Shabbos
& Please don`t carry in SF or BP & you will have the Birchas HaShabbos
36
Jun 28, 2009 at 05:55 PM Milhouse Says:
“ 1-You have to learn Rav Moshe Teshuva not read it.
2-As said previously Rav Moshe and LHBC the Shevet Halevi both say that not counting the cars in RHR is wrong since they are still counted as being in Reshus HaRabim i.e. if someone were to drive a car he has transgressed hotzaa.
3 & 4- Rav Moshe quotes a Rosh (the same Rosh who put the cherem) that says that we go with the city.
He also quotes the Rashba that according that is mechayev Dlasos in this type of scenario.
The Rambam 14:1 goes without saying that we have Reshus HaRabim in our days.
Rav Moshe also quotes a Ramban and Ritva who invalidate any eruv even with mechitzos gemuros if they extend more than 32 mil. (if you measure from tip to tip of Brooklyn you have more than 32 mil) in diamiter.
Please let me know exactly which Rishon would validate this eruv.
And Rav Moshe is only a daas yochid in his kula that one would need 3,000,000 in only a 12 mil area.
Rav Shlomo Zalman ZT"L & LHBC Rav Elyashiv stick with a strict 600,000 in the city limits.
5-The Mordechai also held so along with others see Mordechai(My question was how can you invoke the Teshuvas HaRosh when he invalidates)
Also they are only considered daas yochis in a Karmelis not where we will say sofek Torah
6- The Mishnah on daf 20a in eruvin is talking about pasei biraos that is where the machlokes of asi Rabim Umevatlei Mechitza is debated.
I hope you saw all the gemoros before you read Rav Moshes teshuva
7- When we are dealing with Baalei Teshuva we can be more meikel I would allow a BT to eat a piece of meat with a sub-standard hashgocho because he is still fragile.
People in BP & Flatbush should know how to learn and not make light of a sofek issur Torah. The reason they want to be meikel is to be porek ohl not shmeeras Shabbos.
The Agudas HaRabonim gave a psak not to allow eruvin in large metroplatin area as per Reb Moshe`s Hachraa
9- You do also need to be socher reshus from each goy in that has a front lawn that is pasuach to the chotzer.
This can be done if the city is has a quasi baalos i.e. a tefisas habayis
This is why the Rebbe ZT"L and LHBC Rav Elyashiv feel that one needs to be intellectually honest before saying that this was done in der heim.
Ulemaichash Mibai
A Gut Shabbos
& Please don`t carry in SF or BP & you will have the Birchas HaShabbos ”
1. I have learned it. It is not the last word in eruvin.
2. And how is this relevant. Are you incapable of understanding plain English? The claim was "unless your Rav holds that a car is a private dwelling...". That claim is false. Every single rov in the world holds that a car is a reshus hayochid. End of story. Until you agree that "Aryeh" was wrong and I was right to correct him, I'm not interested in anything more you have to say on the subject.
3. This is R Moshe's opinion, but he openly admits that it's his own chiddush. In any case it's irrelevant to Brooklyn, which doesn't have the 3 million R Moshe requires. If you want dlosos, fine, put up dlosos, but how can you say that there can't be an eruv at all?
4. Yes, of course the Rambam says there can be RHR nowadays; he is from the minority of rishonim who don't hold of the requirement for 600K at all. According to him every street that is wider than 16 amos is a RHR, and the same was true back in Europe. But that doesn't mean you can't make eruvin. The Rambam has no problem with eruvin, so long as it is EITHER omed merubeh al haporutz, OR each tzuras hapesach is less than 10 amos wide.
4a. What are you talking about? 32 mil from the Verrazano Bridge gets you somewhere around Freeport! Even if you meant circumference rather than diameter, there is no eruv in Brooklyn, or even a proposed eruv, with a circumference anywhere near that long.
4b. Which eruv are you talking about, when you ask which rishon would validate it?
5. There is not even a hint in shulchon oruch of any requirement for a hinge. The pashtus haloshon in the gemoro is that it is not required. Who else besides the Mordechai do you claim requires it?
6. The fact remains that you can make an eruv in RHR. It just has to be stronger than in a karmelis. In a karmelis you can string four tzuros hapesochim, each as long as you like, and voila, you have an eruv. In a RHR that works mid'oraisa, but not midrabonon. But there's no question that if you have omed merubeh al haporutz, and delosos where necessary, you can do it. Remember that Seagate is part of Brooklyn, and yet nobody disputes its eruv. Obviously there is some level of eruv that is good in a RHR.
8. The Agudas Horabonim's proclamation was only on Manhattan. And even there, who gave them the right to asser? There were eruvin in Manhattan before this proclamation, and there were perfectly good eruvin after it. R Henkin was in favour of an eruv in Manhattan, and did not sign this proclamation. So why bring it up?
9. As for schiras reshus, if you want a good one you can get it from the electric company. It has the right to store its meters in every house, and the right to enter to inspect them.
37
Jul 13, 2009 at 02:44 PM Bruce Says:
You are obviously a victim or the author of all the paperlach that float around BP & FB
The point of the hinge and the question that you refuse to answer is according to which rishon is this eruv kosher ?
The fact that a car is a RHY or RHR I will repeat makes no difference as Rav Moshe points out that someone who will drive a car is chayav for hotzaa.
Please learn the sugya of kaveres devorim in the first perek with the Dibros before you argue.
Why would you say the Rambam is a daas yochid if the Shulchan Aruch paskens that
way.
As said before we go with the city not the street.
Rav Moshe is a kula not a chumra as stated before.
Most paperlach authors are busy with the census bureau and do not include any of the commuters including buses that traverse Brooklyn and they are bichlal those who are machshil the Rabim.
You forgot the Rashba that Rav Moshe did not miss who says that all of the platyos need dlasos the Nishmas Odom says this is the pashtus of the sugya.
If they are using the sea walls please refer to any good map and use Reb Chaim Naeh amah you will see they exceed Reb Moshe Kula of 32 mil and certainly of the Chaya Odom 16 mil.
If you would learn the teshuva about Seagate you will see taht Rav Moshe said it had mechitzos gemuros.
The electric company has no tefisas habayis in the dirah only outside the dirah.
Better luck next time.
BTW would you eat a piece of meat that had so many kulos?
To sum it up
According to the Rambam Ramban Rashba & Rosh the eruv is posul &
you want to carry Shomu Shamayim Prikas Oyl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Jul 13, 2009 at 11:32 PM Anon Says:
And you were influence by menus. Who paskens like the Rishonim? We follow the Achronim. You show me one Rishon who holds otherwise.
There is no sugya to learn. The majority of poskim disagree with Rav Moshe and Rav Wosner and hold that we do not count the people who ride in the cars. There is even Rishonim who agree.
Most of the Rishonim accept 600,000. There or poskim who say that the Shulchan Aruch does accept 600,000.
Most poskim do not hold that the 600,000 applies to the city.
Rav Moshe is a chumrah and he said himself that it is a chiddush to say that 600,000 has to do with the city (12 mil by 12 mil).
This is ridicules because even with all the commuters it is not close to Rav Moshe’s shita of 3,000,000. Brooklyn is more than 12 mil by 12 mil and doesn’t have such a population and most of those who travel on these buses are part of the population anyway.
There is no platya in any of the areas that have a eruv. Actually the Nishmas Adom asks on the Rasba from the Chacham Tzvi. The Shulchan Aruch makes no difference between a platya and a sratya.
Brooklyn is much less than 32 mil long even using Rav Avraham Chaim Naeh shiur. But you are also a faker. If we are following Rav Moshe shiur of 32 mil than we also follow his opinion of the shiur amah and then Brooklyn would be almost half of 32 mil. Brooklyn is about 14-15 miles at the widest point so it would even be less than 16 mil.
Brooklyn also has mechitzos gemuros.
The electric company does not need more then tefisas yad in the yard and that would be enough power to rent from them just like placing kelim in someone’s reshus is enough. He doesn’t have reshus in all of the chatzer either and it is enough to rent the reshus from him.
According to the Rambam we pasken lo asu rabbim so the mechitzos are enough. According to the Ramban like the Gaon Yaakov says the Ramban agrees that lo asu rabbim of three mechitzos. The Rashba requires mefulash. The Rosh accepts 600,000 and even leaves out the word city. So according to almost all Rishonim and Achronim we can make a eruv. Go learn hilchos eruvin but not from the posters on the street.
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Jul 22, 2009 at 11:34 AM Bruce Says:
#1 We all pasken like Rishonim. Please learn Beis Yosef and let me know of one place that he is machria not based on Rishonim.
#2 Who are the "majority of poskim"? that say cars are not counted did they answer the questions that Rav Moshe & Rav Vosner ask which Rishon are you talking about?
Again, I will accept an answer from you after you have learned the sugya of kaveres with the Dibros.
What do you mean that most poskim do no go with 600k in the city. How do they measure 600k per house?
Again Rav Moshe is LeKula in his allowance of 12x12 mil most others go with the end of city limits even if it is > 12x12 mil.
Brooklyn has a population of 2.5 million according to the US census. Let us not forget that many people from Staten Island Manhatan & hundreds of other places come to Brooklyn or through Brooklyn on a daily basis.
The Nishmas Odom does ask on a Rashba from a Chacham Tzvi.
The Chacham Tzvi Quotes the Rashba the Nishmas Odom even says that this is the pashtus Hasugya and altough the Shulchan Aruch does not mention the Rashba the Bear Hetev does as quoted by Rav Moshe . Please also see Shemira Shabbos Kehichoso that Rav Shlomo Zalman was also machmir for this Rashba that delasos are needed to cordon off in areas of commerce as platya does not need 600k.
Brooklyn does not have to be 32 mil the mechitzos i.e the seawalls are more than 32 mil. we follow the contiuguos land mass. And you have mixed up mil & mile.
The Gaon Yakov as well as Rav Moshe both say that a pirtzah yoser meeser is posul min hatorah so Brooklyn has no walls.
Rav Moshe has already explain the concept of mefulash in the teshuva.
I think by now you relaize that no ben yeshiva would want to eat a piece of cake that did not follow the aforementioned poskim let alone carry in an eruv that does not meet there requirements.
& BTW the Rambam 14:6 clearly says that we pasken asi rabim umvatli Mechitza
Please tell me how someone in Brooklyn carry and not consider himself a porek oyl?
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Jul 23, 2009 at 11:38 PM Anon Says:
TVR,
1) Silly you are not the Bais Yosef.
2) Bigger poskim than Rav Moshe and Rav Wosner said that we do not count cars. The Maharsham (Rav Wosner is wrong about him and did not realize which teshuvah was fist) and the Yeshous Malko (Rav Wosner even admitted about him) both say that only holche regel are counted. Then there is the Bais Ephraim (who I know you are going to argue about but you are simply wrong) and there are many other poskim. The Rishonim are the Or Zeruah and Avraham ben Harambam who both say only holche regel are counted.
BMKT of the gedolim who argued that the sugya of kaveres has to do with our inyan, it clearly does not. What does going in a reshus have to do with our situation where we require that like the diglei hamidbar the rabbim has to be holchei regel. So please go learn the sugya yourself.
The Beer Hetiv just mentions the Rashba and the Nishmas Odom does not say that it is the pashtus of the sugya. The Nishmas Odom holds that the Rashba is talking about the dalsos of the country and not the city or platya itself. RSZA is probably only talking according to those who do not hold of 600,000. Anyway we do not have a platya in any eruv in Brooklyn. A platya is a place that is 16 amos by 16 amos where people sell things.
Most poskim hold that the 600,000 has to do with the street and Rav Moshe originally admitted this. Only later did he say that it has to do with 12 mil by 12 mil and even then admitted that it was a chidush.
No no Rav Moshe is a chumrah because the pashtus is that the 600,000 have to walk on the street as the Divrei Malkeil says in vol. 4. Besides for Rav Moshe no one ever explained what is called a city and this is proof that it has to do with a street.
There are many more people who leave Brooklyn than come into Brooklyn and besides Brooklyn is more than 12 mil by 12 mil. Also those who go through Brooklyn are mostly on highways that have their own mechitzos.
No no you are mixing up mil and mile and don’t know what you are talking about. This inyan has only to do with where we are standing and in Brooklyn at the furthest point from the mechitzos we would be even less than 16 mil. There are poskim that hold with man-made mechitzos there is no shiur and there are many other explanations that you are leaving out. But this is typical of you guys to collect all these shitos to asser.
So what if we make a tzuras hapesach by the opining the Gaon Yaakov would agree that it is enough because the mechitzos are open into a carmelis. Also since we have three mechitzos he would agree that a pirtza that is esser does not override the mechitzah just like (Tosfos) Yerushalayim. No no Rav Moshe holds that pirtzos esser is only drabanan.
Fine but Rav Moshe and Rav Ahron came up with a chidush in mefulash that the Divrei Malkeil and the Mishnah Berurah and almost all poskim disagree with.
No no the only thing I realize is that you are a meen and a tzdokei.
No you are not learning the right psaht in the Rmabam. The Magid Mishnah (who is the mesorah on the Rambam) says that the Rambam paskns lo asu rabbim (contrary to the Mishkenos Yaakov and Rav Ahron).
The only porek ol that there are, are those who don’t let us follow our rabanim.
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Aug 25, 2009 at 02:11 PM Bruce Says:
I`m sorry for not responding sooner
I never stated that I am the Beis Yosef only that we are beholden to Rishonim and our opinions are guided through their psakim.
What does BMKT stand for ?
I do not know why you think that the Maharsham was bigger than either Rav Moshe or Reb Ahron ZT"L the years make absolutely no difference this is why we pasken like the basra (when there is one)
Also you did not see the Teshuva from the Maharsham is Yetzios Hashabbos
Since there ahs been no one that replaced Rav Ahron & Rav Moshe the halacha is kavua ledoros bemakom shenagu issur.
The Beer Hetiev does not quote cute Shu"t as brain teasers whenever he maes a reference it is to codify that source as halachic the same holds true for the Shaarei Teshuva and Pischei Teshuva whereas the Darchei Teshuva sais in his hakdama that he quotes sources that we do not follow.
I am glad to see taht you agree that Brooklyn is bigger than 12 mil.
Please see the yetzios HaShabbos for a list of poskim who say the number of 600k is tallied in the city
The Gaon Yakov holds pirtzah yoser meeser is doiraissa so he is not in your camp.
As well as Rav Moshe which is clear from his teshuvos about Seagate and Manhattan as well as eidus from Reb Dovid Shlita
Why is someone who is machmir by an issur torah a min or tzeduki?
In my Shulchan Aruch it says beshel torah halech achar hamachmir Why is the Divrei Malkiel greater than Rav Moshe again this is what Basra is all about.
Everyone know that the Vaad HaEruv waited for Reb Shlomo Zalman`s petira so they would not have him enforcing Rav Moshe`s psak
Please ... It`s Elul do teshuva !!!
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Aug 26, 2009 at 09:21 AM Anon Says:
Funny, and just a few lines further you say that we pasken basra. So do we follow the Rishonim or not.
The Maharsham was bigger than Rav Ahron and Rav Moshe combined. You do not begin to know his greatness. We pasken like basra because they saw the previous poskim not because they are greater.
If it was only in Yetzios Hashabbos I would not believe it. But it is printed in other places. Please this teshuva sayes nothing they simply lied to the Maharsham.
Silly there is no such thing. We pasken basra because they saw the earliar poskim. It does not make a diffrence if they are not in the same league. So any posek has a right to argue on Rav Ahron and Rav Moshe. Otherwise I would follow the Maharsham since he was greater than Rav Moshe and Rav Ahron and his psak was kevua ledoros.
You don't chap. The point is that if Brooklyn is bigger than 12 mil than we do not include the whole population of Brooklyn.
It is not true about the Beer Hetiv but it does not make a diffrence we do not follow this Rashba like the Bais Ephraim says. In any case we do not have a platya in our eruvin so it does not make a diffrence.
I don't trust a word in Yetzios Hashabbos. I can give lists bigger and more arcruate than his.
Again it does not make a diffrence that the Gaon Yaakov holds pirtzos esser is d'oraysa since we are only open to a carmelis a tzuras hapesach would help.
No Rav Moshe holds pirtzos esser is d'rabbanan. You can't read. Rav Dovid never said that his father held otherwise and if yes than he would have to explain the Seagate teshuvos. Rav Moshe never said in Manhattan that pirtzos esser is d'oraysa.
Because it is not d'oraysa, there are so many sefekos at the minumum.
Its not just the Divrei Malkiel no one held like them. Also if they are basra than all the poskim today are basa to them.
You are simply making up stories no one waited for RSZA's petria and he would allow just like in Yerushalayim.
You didnt answer many of my arguments. Your just like them all.
Please do teshuvah its Elul.
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Aug 26, 2009 at 10:37 AM Bruce Says:
You never said what BMKT stands for.
I find it hard to believe that the Maharsham was bigger than Rav Moshe & Rav Ahron just look at a piece of dibros or mishnas Rav Ahron.
They were shown all of the teshuvos of the mekielim and were machmir none the less . Apparently you do not understand what safek deoraissa is.
Rav Moshe`s Seagate Teshuva are devoted to stating that the small house would not create a pirtzah yoser meeser.
Rav Moshe makes reference to this in Igros OC 1:139 anaf 2-3
The fact that you can cardon off a part of a Reshus HaRabim with a tzuras hapesach does not remove it from the Reshus HaRabim that is the point.
In addition to this all please see Rav Platcheskey`s correspondence and dissent to the Chazzon Ish in his sefer Shalom Yehuda & reprinted in Eshed HeNechalim.
I would like to know who the we is in the we don`t follow the Beir Hetev Rav Moshe did not think so.
Please see the Nesivos Shabbos chapter 3 sk 5 page 25 about platya & ad loc sk 7 page 26 where he has a different opinion of the Yetzios HaShabbos also see page 27 towards the bottom where he says most poskim say that we are mitztaref cars. and Shemris Shabbos Kehilchasa that both say we do have platyos & platyos do not need 600k.
Rav Shlomo Zalman only says that the Kosel Plaza is not a platya b/c the purpose of gathering is for tefilla.
Yes Reb Dovid did say that you are just to afraid to ask him.
Please refer to which aspect of your post that I have not addressed.
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Aug 26, 2009 at 01:39 PM Anon Says:
Bemchilas kavod toraso.
That is simply because you think that they agree with you. You think less of the Maharsham because he does not agree with you. The Mahrasham was considered the posek hador by none other than the Aderes and Rav Chaim Berlin and both wanted to learn halacah from him. Both Rav Ahron and Rav Moshe were not classic poskim and would not have been considered the last word in halchah a generation ago. The Maharsham was a bigger boki than both of them combined. The Maharsham's use of his bokeis was totaly phenomnal. I don't begin to understand how one can even compare Rav Ahron to the Mahrasham in halacah. I don't begin to understand how one can compare Rav Moshe to the Maharsham since Rav Moshe created his own style in psak. You simply do not know much about halacah and psak if you think otherwise.
Right and todays poskim after seeing what they have to say either disagree with them or believe that the situation is not the same. Don't forget they are basra. Practice what you preach. There is no such thing that halachah stops because you think that there are no poskim as big. We go basra and it does not make a diffrence how big they are (or we go accoring to you with greatness and there were greater poskim than Rav Moshe and Rav Ahron who disagreed with them).
Aperently you do not want to accept that even if it was a safek d'oraysa (which it is not at all) it is a sfek sfek sfeka so we go lkula even on a d'oraysa. And yes it is a safek hashokel.
And Rav Moshe wants to allow it even on a d'oraysa level. Read his teshuvah carefuly. The next teshuvah (90) sayes it clearly. In any case nowhere does Rav Moshe say that it is d'oraysa. So you have to prove that he says so.
Rav Moshe does not reffrence this at all. Only if the pirtza does not have a mechitzah like by the bridges does he say it needs dalsos. Otherwise he says clearly that a tzuras hapesach is enough.
Your next statemnt is incorrect and it is very possible that Rav Moshe does accept that a tzuras hapesach is enough. There are Rishonim and Achronim who agree.
I don't care that Rav Platcheinsky disagrees only that the Chazon Ish disagrees with him. The Chazon Ish was a greater boki in eruvin than them all.
I did not say we don't follow the Beer Hetiv only that it does not concern us. In any case most of the Rishonim disagree with the Rashba and so do the Achronim. I don't understand Rav Moshe's argument that we don't have a mesorah on a platya with shishim rbo. Warsaw had such a population and they had platyas and they had an eruv. So if it is not enough to have 600,000 in the 12 mil area as Rav Moshe says because cities like Warsaw did have such a population (and therefore he says we need 3 million) and made eruvin so why don't we follow Warsaw regarding platyas too?
Unfortuantly the Nesivos Shabbos does not know the Yetzios HaShabbos because he live in Eretz Yisroel. BMKT he is incorrect abot being metzaref cars. There are only a few poskim who say that we are metzaref cars.
Most poskim hold that a platya does need 600,000 and many hold that it does need to be mefulash. Anyway we do not have a platya included in our eruv.
I am not afraid to ask because its not important to me what he says about his fathers opinion. I do care about his personel opinion which should be counted as one of the important poskim of today. His father wrote teshuvos and everyone can see what he had to say I don't need his explanations. Anyway show me were Rav Dovid says that his father holds that pirtzos esser is d'oraysa.
For starters you did not answer about the sugya of kaveres and that Rav Wosner is wrong about the Mharsaham, he did not realize which teshuvah is last.
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Aug 26, 2009 at 11:39 PM Anon Says:
Some more points.
No Rav Ahron and Rav Moshe did not see the Mharsham.
You miss the point. If Brooklyn is more than 12 mil by 12 mil than we do not count the whole population of Brooklyn according to Rav Moshe. We only count the 12 mil by 12 mil area which would be less.
46
Aug 27, 2009 at 11:42 AM Bruce Says:
You are highly mistaken
Rabbi Menachem Kasher published a kuntres in Noam I believe in Chelek Alef & Daled with all of the teshuvos from the matirim. There is no new material everything has been repackaged by others.
This was not a psak based on a whim it was discussed with the rabonim and poskim of the day and the final hachraa is well known.
To my knowledge the eruv in BP was the first time that an inferior group of Rabbanim were able to overturn an accepted psak of a superior group. Perhaps they felt that b/c sholom bayis is no unstable this would somehow manage to reverse the trend.
Otherwise I can think of no cogent explanation of this rabbinic recount.
If you think that you bested Rav Moshe with your math skills you are mistaken.
The 12 mil of Brooklyn has 600k bechol yom the mechitzos they wanted to use to was the fact that the land mass in which Brooklyn is situated is mukaf Mechitzah extends well beyond the Brooklyn limits.
I refer you to any map and you can see that the land mass Brooklyn sits on is surrounded by water from all sides.
If the question posed to Rav Moshe was to have an eruv on the far part of the Island there would have been no objection as they lie outside the reshus harabim and tehy would not have used the mechitzos of this land mass
On a side note Rav H. Schachter quotes Rav Y. Soloviechick in his Nefesh HaRav who says that there is a mesora that Rav Chaim Volozhiner was shown both the Teshuvos of the Beis Efraim and the Mishkenos Yakov and said that the Mishkenos Yakov was correct.
I am curious to know how you understand sofek deoraissa lechumra
47
Aug 27, 2009 at 02:15 PM Bruce Says:
I forgot to add.
Please see sefer Taarich Yisrael with the following quote from Rav Shlomo Zalman .
about Rav Moshe with regard to the date-line.
The chachmei Yerushalyim i.e.Reb Yechiel Michel Rav Herzog Rav Tzvi Peasach Rav Issur Zalman and 27 other geonim were not kdai lehachria against the Chazon Ish However I heard that Rav Moshe argues so the halacha follow Rav Moshe.
One cannot call someone a basra unless he is a bar hachraa of the opinion he is crtiquing none of the current poskim fall in that category.
Please advise.
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Aug 27, 2009 at 01:06 PM Anon Says:
TVR
You are simply not intrested in the emes.
Rav Menachem Kasher did not include all of the rabbanim who hold that cars are not included in the chesben.
Correct, and the new pesak from the rabbanim basra was also not based on a whim. The psak was based on all the previous teshuvos and yet they hold that an eruv is allowed.
Inferior? Rav Steif held that an eruv can be establsihed and so did Rav Weissmandel and so did the Pupa Rav and so did Rav Henkin and so did Rav Frank. In any case who cares the main point is that the rabbanim basra even if they are inferior hold that an eruv can be made.
The only cognent explanation of why there was no eruv untill now was because of people like you.
No Rav Moshe requers three million people over 12 mil by 12 mil and since Brooklyn is larger than that you can't even include the whole of Brooklyn in the tally. Even the entire Brooklyn does not have such a population and of course the 12 mil would not have such a population.
1) Rav Moshe did not know about the mechitzos. 2) You obviously do not know what mechitzos we are talking about. 3) The mechitzos of Brooklyn are next to the water and sorround the Brooklyn land mast. Therefore you next statement is irelevant.
First of all you have not remmbered this story correctly. More importantly there may have been such a mesorah in Volozin because the Mishkenos Yaakov was a talmid but the world did not accept it. In any case the Mishkenos Yaakov was wrong regarding the tally of Rishonim about shishim rbo and asu rabbim. Most importantly this story is incorrect. There is a teshuvah from Rav Chaim and he clearly does not agree to everything his talmid wrote. Again you don't begin to know what a great posek is. The bais Efraim was the posek hador.
This is not a safek doraysa at all. It is at least a sfek sfek sefeka and even by a doraysa we then go lkula. The truth is there are no sefeikos here at all. All these inyanim were paskend already. If you want to follow the later poskim who came up with new shitos fine but don't expect the world to follow.
Again you did not answer all of my arguments.
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Aug 27, 2009 at 10:57 PM Anon Says:
TVR
Either todays rabbanim are basra and they can argue but if they have no right to argue then neither does Rav Moshe and Rav Aharon have a right to argue on the gedolie haposkim from before.. Rav Moshe even argues the earlier achronim (and even some rishonim) so why can't todays rabbanim argue on him. This is simply silly. Rav Moshe and Rav Aharon argued on the Chazon Ish why can't rabbanim say that they follow him over Rav Moshe and Rav Aharon? Anyway, Rav Moshe would let the eruv in Brooklyn because of mechitzos.
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Aug 28, 2009 at 10:48 AM Bruce Says:
#1 Rav Moshe saw thw same map that you are staring at.
Where are your mechitzos? Please do not include any imaginary lines like the clown who composted the community eruv of Brooklyn book.
To throw up a tzura hapesach and then say sefek sefika is included in the rule ain osin safek safeka lechatchila which is a sub category of ain mivatlin issur lechatchila.
#2 As everyone who davened in Vien knows Rav Shteif was not matir the eruv lemaskana and he went so fat that when he annouced in shul not to abide by the eruv he told women who were wearing jewlwry to put it in their husbakds talis zekel b/c of dilma shalfa umachvi!
The pro-eruv askonim took a shtikel torah that he wrote and presented it to the public as halacha ulemaaseh this I heard from more than one einekel.
Rav Chaim Brisker was known to have said very critical things about the eruv in Warsaw.
And as is clear from the Chidushei Harim they would only ask children to carry in the eruv and the lomdus he employs is not even that the kids can be somiech on the mekilin but rather that for hotzaah there is no isur of amira lekatan (see Achiezer 3 who refutes this).
#4 again you do not include ovrin vashavin because you have concluded that they don`t count. Well then you might as well be able to carry a mechitza around you on Shabbos according to the way that you learned up the sugya of Kaveres .
Perhaps accoding to your lomdus If I have an umbrella then I can carry it even without an eruv because of gud achis michizta.
Please look at the traffic numbers that are public.
So remind me the sefikos are as follows.
Maybe we follow the Rambam that we need omied meruba .
Maybe the halacha is that 600k do not need to be within 12 mil but rather in city limits
Maybe you don`t need 600k to make a reshus harabim
Maybe you need dalsos to cardon off platyos
Maybe we say asi rabim umevatli mechitza
The list goes on
What kind of meat do you eat?
Again the point of my post have been that Baalei Teshuva should take baby steps and a place like SF needs an eruv.
But BP a place where everyone has had an education.
A place where just about everyone has a ancestor that was moser nefesh for Shabbos at some point?
To throw that all out so I can carry a piece of kugel home from a kiddush? let the husband sit at home a watch his kids so his wife can take a walk with her friends.
Please remember Yerushayim Bizman Habayis did not try to make an eruv with tzuras HaPesach and when Boro Park was an ir veim beyisreal they did not either.
Binyan yeladim stira Stiras Zekenim Binyan.
I was wondering if the rabonim in Boro Park could perhaps recall Rav Ahron`s issur on gelatin there was many poskim who were matir we could then eat delicious looikng twinkies we would even make them pas yisrael and throw on a sticker with some gaon the resides within the confines of the eruv.
Wouldn`t that be empowering.
BTW I wonder what the dar acharon thinks when they see theri parents revolting against older piskei dinim? perhaps the younger you are the smarter you are.
That would explain how the average kid in BP thinks just ask their parents.
A Gut Shabbos don`t forget your umbrella (the Chazon Ish argues on the Noda BeYehudas issur) But please remeber to make zman kras Shema as only the Mishkenos Yakov says that we go with standard zman kima not halachic.
Kol Tuv!
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Aug 30, 2009 at 09:30 PM Anon Says:
No that’s a lie Rav Moshe never saw any map. Only what guys like you told him. Anyway what does a map show you, you need to go see them to know if they exist and Rav Moshe never took a tour of Brooklyns waterfront.
The only imagining is that you know eruvin. Those lines are the mechitzos next to the water. If you say that it is only imaginary you are a liar. How can you deny a fact. Only because you are a eino modeh beruv.
For us it is not a safek at all. Once we make the eruv it is not a safek for you it is allowed also. Also the Avnei Nezer and the Luvshi Mordechi make these sefakos lchatchilah. So save your Tores for someone else.
The stories that you say from Rav Steif’s einekel are lies. You want me to believe an einekel over a teshuvah? Rav Steif wrote in a teshuvah that there is no reshus harabim today that is lammaaseh. Anyway the story is not a problem because Rav Steif holds that with a tzuras hapesach it is not anymore a reshus harabim and he was not talking about with an eruv. The one about the talis zekel is a good one any more such bube masehs. You’re a good story teller. I wonder who is the clown?
The stories about Rav Chaim Brisker and the Chidushei Harim (which has nothing to do with the Warsaw eruv) are also very good. Anymore bube masehs? Anyway in the time of the Chidushei Harim there was no talk about Warsaw being a reshus harabim so it makes no difference. Even Rav Moshe admitted that Warsaw was a city of over 600,000. Even, when Warsaw was a reshus harabim most people carried don’t make up stories otherwise. I know that Warsaw is a problem for an eino modeh beruv but that is just too bad.
Ovrin veshavin are only included if they actually go in the reshus hrabim otherwise it is not domeh ldiglei hamidbar. Kaveres has nothing to do with our inyan. Who says you can’t have mechitzos with you on Shabbos. You are an am haretz. Carrying a mechitzah? You ever heard of mechitzos consisting of people. An umbrella? There is a proablem of gedoyim bokim.
The traffic numbers show that we do not have a street that is even close to 600,000 even with cars. Stop your lies.
No the Rambam is in the majority. Most Rishonim hold lo asu rabim. So it is not a safek at all.
No you purposefully left out what most poskim hold that 600,000 has to be on the street.
No most Rishonim hold that we do accept shishim rbo.
No most Rishonim hold that we do not need dalsos for a platya.
No most Rishonim hold lo asu rabim.
Right the list goes on and most of your claims are false because you are in the minority. But some of these items above should at least be called a safek for you.
I don’t eat meat but these eruvin are more kosher than your meat. You maybe don’t know hilchos sechita.
No everyone can carry in the SF eruv. You are simply an eino modeh beruv.
Right and we are moser nefesh to make an eruv just like our ancestors even just for oneg Shabbos.
I wonder why you used kugel as an example. Maybe you meant keegel. Don’t you mean a certain group of Yidden who I am sure you consider a bunch of am haratzim? You are duch a ben Teyrah.
No you are mixing up the inyan. A tzuras hapesach could not be made in Yerushalayim because dalsos were needed. Maybe you’re talking about why they did not make eruvei chatzeiros. The Hashlamah says that they made eruvei chatzeiros in Yerushalayim before there were pirtzos in the chomos Yerushalyim. Even after some Rishonim say that there were smaller eruvin in Yerushalayim. Don’t forget according to you Boro Park today is full of people who are not bnei Teyrah like you and are only keegel eaters so who cares if they carry.
Silly Rav Aharon was not the only one to aser gelatin. Most of those keegle eaters were against it.
Aren’t you empowered because these keegle eaters proved to you that you are a ben Teyrah and not them?
Right the dor acharon learnt from the few mishagoyim that it would be better to scream at people mechalleiah mois yomos then everyone should follow their posek. Of course it is important to hang up kol koreis claiming that one should not follow his rav because that is the right chinuch that you and your breed from Flatbush hold by. Also don’t forget to teach the dor acharon that its important to tell lies to the past rabbanim that an eruv should not be made because an eruv is a big aveirah its like a tzelem c”v. Don’t forget that the dor acharon in Boro Park are a bunch of am haratzim anyway so who cares that they carry they are like the baal teshuvos in SF.
Silly most poskim disagree with the reason of the Noda Beyhudah. But we don’t use an umbrella for other reasons. Anyway it would still be more important to make an eruv because it is a mitzvah and not going with an umbrella is only midas chasidus (see Chasam Sofer). Anyway who cares about the Chazon Ish even if he was considered the posek hador in Eretz Yisroel and Europe since he held that there is no reshus harabim today. Don’t forget that is the biggest chet he could possibly have.
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Aug 30, 2009 at 11:55 PM Anon Says:
"Once we make the eruv it is not a safek for you it is allowed also."
I mean "Once we make the eruv it is not a safek lechatchilah anymore and for you it is also allowed ."
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Aug 31, 2009 at 11:20 PM Bruce Says:
Chabad also says tayreh actually they are probbaly the only ones who still do but I guess since they also don`t have an eruv as per graz 345:11 they are als fair game.
You are mixed up between ain osin safek derabban lechatchila an ain osin safek lechatchila.
But even the Shulchan Aruch paskens in Hilchos Sefiras Haomer to wait for tzeis as the Ran says b/c of this and as the Daas Torah points out in hilchos tzitzis 10:7 this is the Rambams opinion as well.
You are refering to thet Levush Mordechai of Slabodka & Chevron who says this in regards to Odessa a hotbed of haskala(closer to my roots). The Levushi Mordechai has no such teshuva and this was an exisiting eruv not the question of making one for yerei shamayim.
All the dor acharon in BP see is that their parents think the Shulchan Aruch is a pain in the neck and if you are a sweet talker and have money you can make alot of things happen
There is no problem of gdiim bokin min hatorah on a gud achis only lavud so I am sure that for only a derabanan we can rely on the Chazon Ish who is matir you will have a hard time b/c in der heim they were machmir but with the right PR firm you can win the war.
As well as the gelatin this ruling can be overturned as well b/c we are so smart.
Let`s set the facts on the ground you are obviously a keegel mentch as you would like to be called .
I figured that out from the fact that only such a person could actually think that the only reason that Rav Chaim Volozhiner held like the M"Y over the B"E was becasue he had negios b/c he was a talmid & not b/c he was ohiev es haemes only a mere fans of their team who root that their team should win and do tend to strech the truth to make sure that they can win the game.
By them Altz iz politik no emes they feel that those who apprach a sugya with a crtitical eye from the view of shas & poskim are just party poopers. Yes that is a sad epitaph for the only group of people who came to this country en mass & kept Torah Umitzvos.
To say that Rav Moshe was a little old man who just paskened shailos chamuros without having the facts on the aside from revisionist history Rav Moshe vacationed in the Rockaways and knew the layout of more that his apartment.
as far as bizayon talmid chochom I refer you to the Rambam at the endd of hilchos tzaraas who says that minimizing the stature of a TC is LH & begets tzoraas.
The Shulchan Aruch did not have the same Rambam as you
Perhaps the Steipler wasn`t chasidish enough for you.
I guess only if you eat cake before you daven after the zeman tefilla is one able to pasken a shaila correctly.
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Sep 01, 2009 at 01:31 PM Anon Says:
I guess you realize that I know that you are not Chabad because you said “also”. Actually, the Tanya did not write that. Lubavitch didn’t make because of the Rambam and these are Rambam eruvin.
No you are mixed up about safek drabbanan and sfek sefeka doraysa. Anyway what I wrote was only about making a tzuras hapesach for you lchatchilah but the truth is that to begin with it is a sefek sefeka carmelis without us doing any peula so there is no issue of osin safek lchatchila. The issue of Sefiras Haomor has nothing to do with us because there they are making the safek lechatchila but we have the sefek sefeka already. According to your claim all the eruvin in the heim were made only for BTs because almost all of them relied on many kulos. Anyway most people carried in Warsaw and in Lodz before the war and there is no difference between Brooklyn and these cities.
I don’t know if it is your roots but today it definitely is part of you, you are a min. Your story about Odessa is a nice bube maseh. In all cities in Europe the poskim held that we must be mekil with eruvin it had nothing to do with Odessa in particular. The teshuvah was not written about Odessa (it was written after in 1910) and he does make a sfek sefeka saying that a tzuras hepesach helps medoraysa according to some and then he also uses shishim rbo.
Right and the dor achron in your town are all holy because they are benei Teyrah our dor achron are only keegel eaters. I am sure your holy dor achron doesn’t see that you can buy rabbanim with money only that you can terrorize them like you do (MYW). It is people like you who make the problems. The dor achron only knows because of you that we can’t follow our rav and that it’s important to scream at people. Your claim that we bought rabbanim with money shows your true colors. So the Pershia also thinks that the Shulchan Aruch is a pain in the neck. You’re arguments are just silly.
The Sefas Emes brings many Rishonim who say it is a doraysa. Anyway even according to those who disagree we say gedoyim bokim medoraysa in this case because an umbrella has no mechitzah at all. No in the heim they were not machmir in eruvin it is only in galus America did it become fashionable for bnei Teyrah to be machmir. Right you didn’t need a PR firm you took matters into your own hands (MYW) and just terrorized the rabbanim.
Let’s set the record straight I would rather be a keegle mentch then your type any day. Anyway you are not even a ben Teyrah you only know the reid and do not know halachah. I am not impressed with your bekius you’re simply krum.
You can’t read. I never said that Rav Chaim’s opinion was based on negious only that this was his mesorah maybe because the MY was a talmid. However, the world did not agree. You can’t answer this fact. The world did not accept the MY over the BE. I feel very sorry for you. You know that the BE probably was a somewhat a keegle eater himself?
The only emes is that people like you didn’t try to buying the opinion of the rabbanim you simply terrorized them (like you did to the Pupa Rav).
I have more respect for Rav Moshe then you do. You were not ashamed to lie to him. Please Boro Park and Flatbush each have a population of shsihim rbo? There are a million people that come to Brooklyn to work daily? So who respects whom? Anyone who claims that Rav Moshe knew about the actual mechitzos in Brooklyn is a liar. By the way it was not that he was naive only that he was surrounded by people like you who he believed and told him stories. The only bizayon Tamid Chacahmim is done by people like you.
No the Rambam was the same if you were only to c”v learn the BE.
The Steipler was a posek?
Right don’t forget we are only a bunch of am haratzim who miss zeman tefilah and eat before davining. Please keep on proving what I always realized about you, you are a soneh yisroel.
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Sep 02, 2009 at 10:19 PM Bruce Says:
Brilliant. you have deduced that I am not a chosid Chabad I guess you work for Homeland Security.
I guess you did not check the Mareh Makom in the Graz.
If BP could make a Rambam eruv so can CH.
I guess that you forgot the Rambam does not need 600k and forbids any eruv which has a tzuras hapesach greater than 10 amos so I guess me eyes are deciving me when I walk down 61st and I see the Tzuras Hapesach crossing the street.
Why do we begin with a sakek carmelis and not a safek reshus harabim is there so sort of magic wand that we have to wave to do that?
As far as calling me a min and kofer apparently you have taken an intellectual debate and are trying to change it into a silly 5 year old name calling session I feel really bad for your moros and rabbeim that had to deal with you in your youth.
However I am confindent that you will grow up.
Should you be trying to shlep in the teshuvas HaRosh that gave this title to someone went against an established minhag of sechiras reshus .
I would like to remind you that number one many rishonim argued on the Rosh in that case and second that the BP eruv is posul according to the Rosh for many reason number one being that the Rosh goes with 600k in the city.
I find it quite astounding that you think Rav Moshe would pasken a shailo of such importance without having checked out the facts. As a matter of fact to say that Rav Moshe did so is tremendous bizayon.
I have yet to see anyone who was around at the time of the psak argue on the facts.
The machlokes MY & BE was not nogea to 95% of Klal Yisrael until the turn of the century when there was mass immigration from the shtetel to the US so you can`t say most of Klal Yisrael. There was no minhag in this regard
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Sep 02, 2009 at 10:38 PM Bruce Says:
As far as the gelatin is concerned there were a number of admorim who signed on as well .
I just wanted to know if one of the illuim in BP would like to overturn that one as well and say that initially he was coerced to give his psak but know he wishes to come out of the closest.
Yes the Stepiler was a posek you can look in Mishneh Halachos and see how often he requested the Steipler council.
My personal favorite piece of lomdus was the admor who said the following to answer one of Rav Moshe`s kashos on the Beis Efraim .
Kibalti MiMori VaRabi ZT"L (and then proceeded to say a Litvishe R"Y name) az fun a kashe sharbt men nisht . He couldn`t fathom that perhaps his kasha that he asked his R"Y was not on the level of Rav Moshe . He couldn`t even say an answer just a wave of his hankie a voula avec mit dem Shabbos!
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Sep 03, 2009 at 10:21 AM Anon Says:
Right but most of the kegle eaters agreed.
There are no illuim in BP only keegle eaters. Flatbush has all the illuim.
No the Stipler was a huge gaon but not a posek. It is funny how you bring proof from someone who you dispise. Anyway he asked him because of his stature as a gaon not as a posek.
What Rav Moshe mentions the BE. Do you even know his teshuvos?
Anway you proably mean the Munkatcher Rebbe and got the story wrong.
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Sep 03, 2009 at 10:37 PM Anon Says:
You’re not Chabad and you are not a Chasid at all. I do not have to be a member of HS to figure this out.
I guess that you did not check Rav Avrahom Chaim Naeh who says that this is not the words of the Rav. If you were Chabad you would not have used the name Graz.
The same way you the biggest Gaon of all do not realize that with two mechitzos omed merubeh we have a Rambam eruv so to in CH they don't realize this. The Chabad Chasidim had to be told about it in BP also.
Right and the Rambam holds lo asu rabim and we have mechitzos.
As I said you do not know the inyan. We have even more than two mechitzos omed merubeh so even if the pirtzos are more than 10 amos the Rambam allows.
Oh and you did not see a tzuras hapesach you saw a tzeilem.
So what begin with a sefek sefeka reshus harabbim and even with a doraysa we go l'kulah. We did not create this sefek sefeka reshus harabbim so it can be used even by those who are not modeh beruv lechatchila.
This is far from a debate because you are not interested in the emes.
I wish that I could say the same but I do not have much hope that you will eventually see the emes.
On the contrary if you were to c"v learn the BE you would see that he said that even though it is not pashut what the Rosh said and there are Rishonim that disagree the Rosh still said what he did.
No the Rosh holds that shishim rbo goes on the street. We see this from when he quotes Rashi and omits the word "air".
The only bizayon is that you guys lied to him. He trusted you and you sold him a bill of goods. Otherwise Rav Moshe would not have made statements that are incorrect and you can't answer why he did so if not that he was lied to.
I don't care what those people have to say their stories can't be true because they told Rav Moshe lies.
You do not know what you are talking about. Almost all cities in Europe had streets that where 16 amos wide so they had to rely on shishim rbo. So the machlokas between the BE and MY was very nogea and we still follow the BE.
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Sep 08, 2009 at 10:29 AM Bruce Says:
I guess the Mishnah Berurah & Aruch HaShulchan were also as vicious as me because they also refer to the Rav Shulchan Aruch as Graz.
You are trying unsuccessfully to draw me into a name calling ceremony but B"H I graduated kindergarten.
Why was there no mud slinging when Rav Moshe assured the eruv.
Yes there were frustrated people who did not get their way and were upset and said fun a kasha sharbt men nisht (always a great sign of a great thinker).
However no one ever claimed that the facts were miscontrued I challenge you to find me one article from that era that was crtical of the facts.
Now the BP eruv only has two wall or four wall according to the Chazon Ish according to Rav Moshe and Rav Ahron there are no walls and henceforth the Tzuras Hapesach is yoser measarah
Please supply a Mareh Makom for your Ketzos HaShulchan. The latest edition of the Graz has this as part of the text and there is no eruv in CH to boot so you have yet to impress me yet.
Most streets in bigger cities were not 16 amos wide even in colonial US.
And again what changed in BP between Rav Moshe Psak and now.
I have never claimed to be a gaon or even a goon just someone who wants answers.
I have a kabalah from a R"Y that those who cheat the government ultimately become cheats in their learning as well because they have already corrupted their way of thought .
I think this is the answer as to why a eruv went up in BP.
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Sep 08, 2009 at 02:58 PM Anon Says:
Who is talking about the Mishna Berura or the Aruch Hashulchan I am talking about you that you are not Chabad. By the way they are also not Chabad and that is why they used such a name.
I can’t draw you into anything even halacha since it is clear that you don’t know it.
There was mudslinging by your group from the beginning.
You made up that story just like all your other bube masehs.
Yes there were people who challenged the facts even at the time and one even wrote it but they were quieted. Anyway who cares if they did so at the time. The fact is that you can’t answer why Rav Moshe wrote things that are factually incorrect.
No according to all most of Brooklyn is surrounded by three mechitzos. If you say otherwise you are simply a liar who is not interested in the emes. Of course there are mechitzos habatim but that is a different issue. No Rav Moshe holds that pirtzos esser is only d’rabbanan and you have no proof otherwise.
See Kuntres Hashulchan 345:11. All Chabad kiryats have eruvin so they do rely on shishim rbo. Most members of Chabad do carry in BP because they were told that it is a Rambam eruv.
The point was that most small cities had to rely on shishim rbo because they did have a street that was 16 amos wide and that was the machlokas between the MY and the BE. You forgot what we are talking about. Anyway all large cities in the time of the BE and the MY did have some streets that were 16 amos.
Nothing physically happened only your lies were exposed.
You are not interested in the emes. Your motto is please don’t mix me up with the facts.
No we are just a bunch of keegle eaters we never knew how to learn. Right and I have a kabalah that you guys are all a bunch of liars. Just like I don’t believe any of your other bube masehs I don’t believe your so called kabalah. Anyway your statement is comical. Most RY are a big part of the reason why we have become dependent on a welfare state so what right do they have to comment. You guys are all so straight in Flatbush. Please tell it to the marines. Keep up your banter you are just proving my point you are a soneh yisroel.
No the only reason why there is a BP eruv today is that we do not accept your bube masehes anymore.
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Sep 09, 2009 at 10:17 AM Bruce Says:
You must have gone to the Munkatcher debating school.
Typical of the pro-eruv camp you quote a big name the Ketzos HaShulchan and when you are pressed for a mareh makom you cannot even muster up the courage to say that number one Rav Chaim Naeh agrees that the girsa is a yeri shamayim should be machmir but only that the mekilm have grounds to be somech on.
And the fact that he says at the end of foot note 69 and I have not come to be lenient for a yerei shamayim in our reshus harabim but rather to clarify the correct gisra of the Rav Shulchan Aruch. If a Chosid Chabad is being meikel it is not with Rav Naeh`s blessing I am sure that he would want his fellow chasidim to be bechlal yerei shamayim.
Any more Mareh Mekomos?
Again if you please delineate the mechitzos that you are talking about perhaps I can shed some light on your mistake.
The mechitzos that BP uses all have pirtzos greater than 10 so again I will reiterate that The Even HoZer Gaon Yakov Rav Moshe and others held that this is deoraissa.
The R"Y ZT"L that I quoted is not from Flatbush and is beyond reproach when it comes to dealing with money and is not even form NY state.
But if the shoe fits wear it.
Rav Tuvia Goldstein who sactioned the eruv was intellectually honest.
He said that according to the Bais Efraim it is good but according to Rav Moshe it is not he did not try to use sound bytes an photo ops or draw imaginary lines to recreate Rav Moshe`s psak.
Just honesty.
Rav Moshe himself writes that there are shitos who are meikel. But we should not let those who wish to be scrupulous in mitzvos feel that they are causing undue stress on themsleves.
The only thing that changed in BP were the kinder screaming I want it my way!!!
BP is a place that people look to for zehirus in halacha not only cholopshkes and fur coats.
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Sep 09, 2009 at 02:27 PM Anon Says:
Right and you went to the Mir debating school which does not know halachah. You can’t read. Rav Naah says in note 69 that kol yeri shomayim was probably not written by the Tanya and that was my point. No Rav Naah does not say that the correct girsa in the Rav is that a yeri shomayim should be machmir. On the contrary he says that it was added later (what he did personally is beside the point). Anyway the Tanya holds that a tzuras hapesach makes the area a reshus hayachid medoraysa and only medrabbanan do we need dalsos. If we use shishim rbo together with a tzuras hapesach there is no question that the Rav would allow carrying even for a yeri shomayim (see what the Kanah Vekanamin says about this). Also we know today that it is not even a close call the vast majority of Rishonim hold of shishim rbo and there should not be any more a question about yeri shomayim.
In Eretz Yisrael almost all Lubavitcher carry in city eruvin and they must be relying on shishim rbo. Anyway what do you care about Chabad I am sure despise them. Also the Tanya has a lot about a baal nefesh and I don’t believe according to him any of us are in this geder. But then again you wouldn’t know about the Tanya it’s a chasidshe sefer, ich feh.
You know very well about which mechitzos I am talking about. The mechitzos by the Brooklyn waterfront. The proof that you guys don’t mean emes is these mechitzos. If you were interested in the truth you would agree that with these mechitzos we do not need to be machmir. But you are only looking to be machmir and not for the emes because eruvin are treif. This is why you guys are eino modeh beruv. The only mistake that I have is that I am debating an eino modeh beruv you are simply not willing to hear the emes.
Talking about mareh makomos please give one for Rav Moshe holding that pirtzos esser is doraysa. You are simply a liar. Rav Moshe does not hold like that. As I said these mechitzos open into a karmelis so a tzuras hapesach would help even according to the Gaon Yaakov since he holds lo asu rabim. Also the Even Haozer does not hold pirtzos esser is doraysa. I know all you gedrayta sevaros about what he holds about 16 amos but you have no legs to stand on. Oh and you forgot that almost all the poskim hold that pirtzos esser is drabbanan very few hold otherwise. But I forgot that you like to collect all chumros when it comes to eruvin. You guys are the biggest hypocrites.
As I said you are a good story teller but I don’t believe a word you say. Anway these stories just prove my point over and over again.
No. Rav Tuvia did not say that at all. You are simply a liar. Rav Tuvia said many times brabim that with mechitzos even Rav Moshe would allow an eruv in Brooklyn. Please don’t use Rav Tuvia for your cause your type does not respect him. Don’t forget he learnt halacha all his life that is not so important.
What Rav Moshe wrote about Flatbush is that he did not want to give a psak din barur because other Achronim did not agree with him.
The only screaming that is being done is by the anti eruv group better known as the eino modeh beruvin.
Right BP is a place where people want to follow their rav and not get harassed by deranged people. Right BP is a place where some people hold that they must carry in order not to be put in the same category as guys like you. Keep up your good work proving that I am correct what you hold about Chasidim.
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Sep 10, 2009 at 02:40 PM Bruce Says:
I understand that I will not convince people like yourself who are willing to compromise on their shmiras shabbos so their team can win.
I am concerned about exactly the people who Rav Moshe was concerned about in 4:89 the anashim ksheirim who wish to do kehogen and who will be influenced by those who carry.
BTW you can contact any of the Rabonim in Flatbush who wanted to be matir the eruv. They all sat down with Rav Moshe in a civil way and disscussed the issue Rabbi Schreier of Flatbush is named in the Teshuva and he can let you know what they told Rav Moshe.
I underestimated how frum you are apparently you never took a walk on the boardwalk so you did not see that big pirtzah called the beach. The Gaon Yakov is in Daf 11a Rav Akiva Eiger is in Y"D 396 :44 and the Even HaOzer is his Chidushim to evruin 3a. As well as the Mishkenos Yakov and Mishnas Rav Ahron .Rav Moshe is clear from his question on the Chazon Ish i.e. how can it be that it is easier to make an eruv in a big city than a small one.
That is the underlying theme in the the question. I also have heard from Rav Dovid that his father held like this.
I have davened many times in Emek Halacha on 18th & 58 and have spoken with many of them about Rav Tuvia`s opinion of the eruv and they all said that while Rav Tuvia said the Rabanim were allowed to make an eruv in defference to Rav Moshe they should not use it.
BTW Rav Tuvia was a Talmid of Baronovich & Kaminetz no kugel there.
The entire rhetoric regarding eino modeh beruv is silly because the Rosh called that individual a mumar because he went against the psak of the Gadol HaDor not because there was a machlokes in psak.That individual went according to many rishonim who hold that the fact that you make a tzuras hapesach does not remove the chiyuv of sechiras reshus. The Rosh only held that he was a bar plugta on himself
I think that the eruv rabanim have a cheshbon hanefesh to make to see of they are a bar plugta on Rav Moshe and Rav Ahron.
Why do you think I have something against Chasidim?
Did the Skverer Rebbe carry when he was in BP or is he just a Litvak at heart? Or how about his brother in law the Rachmastrivke is he also just a Litvishe want to be Why do they not carry?
Are they just frumme mentchen?
It would behoove you to actually look at Rav Chaim Naaeh inside before you corrupt his words.
He says that the correct girsa should read Vchol Yareh Shomyim Yachmir LaAztmo
(SheKain Daas Gedolei HaRishonim VeTamam UneMukam Shelo Nizkar Samech Ribo BeGemara)
And at the end of footnote 69 Vlo Banu Kan LeHakel LeYerei Shamyim Bershus HaRabim Shelanu elah Levarer HaGirsa BeShulchan Aruch Rabeinu Z"L
If you would like a translation I will provide one.
Why do you get all worked up?
It is not good for your blood pressure.
In my opinion the reason why people want the eruv is so they can be somech on the matir of pilagshim when their wives are away in the mountains.
Remember Chilul Shabbos is Shakul KeNeged Avoda Zara and Lo Avdu Yirael A"Z elah LeHatir Lahem Arayos Sanhedrin 63b
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Sep 15, 2009 at 12:52 PM Anon Says:
I know a lot of talmidim of Rav Tuvia zt”l and I spoke to him many times regarding eruvin, your stories are bube mashes. Rav Tuvia’s talmidim will all admit that not only did he hold that they can use the eruv but that even Rav Moshe would allow this eruv because of mechitzos. He even said this by the meeting of keegle eating Rabbanim in BP. This is the reason that he sent his Rosh Hakolel, Rav Rubin to see the mechitzos in order that Rav Moshe’s shitos should be satisfied. You are full of bube mashes.
Right and Rav Tuvia got more respect from the keegle eaters than from the kugel eaters. I know this first hand. Please you guys never had much respect for him. Keep him out of the macholkas he did not agree with you guys at all.
Totally irrelevant and you totally miss the point. You are an eino modeh beruv because it is not just the BP eruv that you would like to eliminate, your goal is that there should not be any city eruvin at all. You guys fight eruvin whenever you have an opportunity to do so. Also the fact that you are going against the overwhelming majority of poskim to make sure that there be no eruv makes you an eino modeh beruv. You twist the pshat in the poskim only because you want that there be no eruv. Get it through your head you are trying to force the world to follow a minority opinion and Rav Moshe (who even admitted so) and Rav Ahron are just part of this minority. Today’s Rabbanim are not the bar plugta of Rav Moshe and Rav Aharon (even though they are allowed to be) but Rav Moshe and Rav Aharon are the bar plugta of the greatest poskim from the past. Also according to many of today’s poskim Rav Moshe would agree to these eruvin today. But of course you can’t agree because you have to be anti-eruv.
You clearly have something against Chasidim and have said many things to degrade them.
Silly who is talking about the Skverer or the Rachmenstrivka Rebbeim we are talking about their Chasidim. Sorry for you most of their Chasidim do carry in the BP eruv.
You are so full of it. You mention only the parts that are good for you and leave out the other parts. In that same footnote why did you skip the part where Rav Naah said vchol yeri shomayim yachmir leatzmo hu mamer musger kmo shnidpas bkapust vhu hosafos Mharil al pi mah srah b’bayis rabeinu shmachmerim. Clearly Rav Naah holds that these are not the words of the Rav and that was my point.
Translations would not help for a person who is not interested in the emes.
By the way I am only following your lead in getting worked up.
No the reason why people want the eruv is either because of oneg Shabbos or that they not be in the same class as you, an eino modeh beruv. What you claim is totally absurd and just shows that you guys can’t get over the 1981 BP eruv. Unfortunately for you that Rav has very little to do with the new eruv. Also that you make fun of him just because he wanted an eruv proves how sick you are and that it has little to do with halachah. You guys are just not well.
There is no chillul Shabbos when one is following his Rav. Keep you boch svoros to yourself.
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Sep 15, 2009 at 12:52 PM Anon Says:
The only problem is with people who hide behind halacah and think that they know what they are talking about. It has nothing to do with halachah only with me brosh. It is has nothing to do with compromise only that we don’t want to be associated with eino modeh beruvin. Please don’t mix Rav Moshe into the matter.
Right and nevertheless Rav Moshe wrote there that the Rabbanim who feel that they can make an eruv have a right to do so. What right do you have to argue on poskim who hold that an eruv is allowed when Rav Moshe said that they can do as they want? So it is not that you are worried about anashim ksheirim you are only worried about winning. Also with mechitzos there is no reason why Rav Moshe would not allow an eruv in Brooklyn, besides for all the krum reasons that you make up in Rav Moshe’s name.
I spoke to these Rabbanim and they told me that Rav Moshe even explained to them were to place the tzuras hapesach by some of the ramps to the highways in Flatbush. This is a far cry from what you want us to believe was Rav Moshe’s opinion. You guys are simply untrustworthy. All of this doesn’t answer why Rav Moshe wrote things that are factually incorrect and obviously it was your aino modeh beruv group who gave him this information.
Right I am so frum that is why I only saw the mechitzos below the Boardwalk because I wouldn’t walk on top. You are so full of it. Also in BP we don’t even need to use the mechitzos below the Boardwalk since we have three mechitzos without it.
Again I know about the Gaon Yaakov but with mechitzos and a tzuras hapesach he would allow carrying in Brooklyn. You are making up your own pshat in Rav Akiva Eiger and the Even Haozer (are you the rebbe of M or yotzei chlatzav). Rav Akiva Eiger and Even Haozer do not say a word about doraysa. Stop with your krum lomdus that is not what they are saying only what you are saying. Again in Brooklyn the MY would have to allow since he admits that a tzuras hapesach is enough to close a pirtzos esser and we do not have a rabim going through these pirtzos. Also you keep on forgetting that almost all poskim hold that pirtzos esser is drabanan. Here is a partial list, Mabit in Kiryat Sefer, Pri Megadim, Bais Meir, Shulchan Aruch Harav, Zera Emes, Bais Ephraim, Melamud Lehoil, Avnei Nezer, Aruch Hashulchan, Mahari Slutsk, Chavatzelet HaSharon, Achiezer and Chazon Ish. I know that you are going to come with sevaros to farenfer these poskim but know that I heard them all and these sevaros are simply krum.
So now it is that we can see from Rav Moshe that he would hold that pirtzos esser is doraysa but not that he says it clearly. You are full of it. Rav Moshe does not say that he disagrees with the CI because pirtzos esser is doraysa. So it is pu-nkt farkert from there we see that Rav Moshe does not hold that it is doraysa because this would have been his best argument with the CI and he did not use it. Also from the Seagate teshuvos we see that he is talking about allowing on a doraysa level and yet he only holds that the pirtzos are only drabanan.
You are simply making up stories about Rav Dovid. In the new sefer Vdebart B’am Rav Dovid’s talmid does not say anything about Rav Dovid holding that this is his fathers shita even though the talmid talks a lot about pirtzos esser. Also Rav Dovid cannot argue on his father’s written words in the Seagate teshuvos and the fact that his father did not use it against the CI.
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Sep 16, 2009 at 01:19 PM Bruce Says:
I will B"N continue this discussion after the Yomim Tovim.
You Should have a Ksiva VaChasima Tova BeSifran Shel Tzadikim Gemurim.
Gotta run to Uman...(just joking)
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Sep 16, 2009 at 01:29 PM Anon Says:
I would rather not continue this conversation because you are not intreasted in the emes. There is little to gain.
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Oct 19, 2009 at 12:47 PM Bruce Says:
A Gut Yohr
As the yerach haeisanim has passed I am sure that you have been uplifted to greater spiritual heights.
With that being the case you are muchzak to have stopped carrying in the eruv.
You should be Gebentched with all of the brochos of a Shomer Shabbos Kados.