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New York - Passionate Plea -- Make Smoking an Aveirah |
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News Source: Rabbi Dr. Abraham J. Twerski
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A year ago my husband, a fine talmid chacham, was operated on for lung cancer caused by cigarette smoking. Recently it recurred, and the doctors are not giving him much time. Only a miracle can save him, and I pray for him every day at the Kotel.
I had pleaded with him for years to stop smoking, but to no avail. Now, unless Hashem grants us a miracle, I must face the bitter reality that I will be left with nine children to care for without a source of parnassah.
What do I have to look forward to? A full page ad signed by the gedolim, “Rachmanim bnei rachmanim. Come to the rescue of the widow of a talmid chacham and his nine yesomim, whose father died an untimely death”? Am I to send out letters soliciting help? Why should we expect others to be rachmanim on nine yesomim when their father was not a rachman on them? If he didn’t have enough rachmonus on them to give up smoking, why should strangers care? I love my husband dearly, but as much as I love him, that’s how angry I am at him for what he did to us.
The gedolim who will sign the appeal for me – why didn’t they use their authority to make him stop smoking? What could they have done? They could have said, “Because you are committing the terrible sin of suicide and leaving your family destitute, you will not have an aliyah, you will not be permited to daven for the amud, you will not get a hakafah, and you will be pasul as a witness, unless you stop smoking.” I think he would have listened. They might even say that anyone who dies from a self-inflicted disease will be treated according to the halacha of suicide.
I appeal to the gedolim. You be the rachmanim. You can prevent women from becoming widows and children from becoming yesomim. Your signing an urgent appeal for me and my children will be too little and too late. I need a husband, and my children need a father.
To other wives whose husbands are smoking, don’t just sit there. You have a responsibility to protect your children. Protest to your rabbonim that they should do everything in their power to prevent such tragedies, and they should know that if they are lax in doing so, they must share the responsibility for the tragedy that befalls wives and children.
(The article is reprinted at Rabbi Horowitz web site 
at the request of its author, Rabbi Dr. Abraham J. Twerski, from his book , Dear Rabbi, Dear Doctor Volume 2 published by Shaar Press.)
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Read Comments (87) — Post Yours »
1
Jun 24, 2009 at 11:11 AM Anonymous Says:
while she is right in what she says i think its not the nicest way of thinking only about you when your (beloved) husband is about to die
2
Jun 24, 2009 at 11:17 AM BB Says:
A sad story but there are plenty of activities that one can engage in that are harmful to ones health. I support education early on to dissuade our children from picking up the habit. However, to make it an "eveireh"? Legislating morality and behaviour never works and forcing a confirmed smoker to quit, not for themselves but because of another person, this will only result in that persons resentment to the other and sholem bayis will suffer as a result. Ive seen this too many times when a wife "forces" a husband to quit. It doesn't work and issues will arise. Careful what you ask for.
3
Jun 24, 2009 at 11:14 AM Anonymous Says:
Its simple: too many of the "gadolim" or their chevrah are smokers and they will not impose a chumrah that will deny them somthing they themselves enjoy.
4
Jun 24, 2009 at 11:21 AM Anonymous Says:
Oh common, I'm not a smoker but i dont understand. If smoking was the cause their should be lot of people with the same machla without smoking becase of secondhand smoking. There are somany people that get sick nowadays and they were perfectly healthy followed the rules that they were told to do. It remind of what my grandfather told me once, the malach hamuvas didnt want to be the killer of people he told heshem, when one dies evrone will hate him and dislike, so hashem told him, dont worry, nobody will blame you; the heart failed, he was a somker, it was a stroke, weak imuune systym. Bottom line, when someone is soposed to live he lives if not nothing will stop it. Rachmunu litslon!Btw what do you want from this person you think its easy to stop smoking there are people that duy just from stoping to smoke.
5
Jun 24, 2009 at 11:21 AM Anonymous Says:
“ while she is right in what she says i think its not the nicest way of thinking only about you when your (beloved) husband is about to die ”
I pray that YOU are never in such a position - we never know how we would act, and I pray to never really know.
This is a woman about to lose so much, nebach, just nebach.
6
Jun 24, 2009 at 11:25 AM Goodle Says:
I know this does not address the point of the letter, but as sad as this womans plight is it shows a distorted belief in the ability of Rabbonim that is so prevalent in this generation. The "Gedolim" are perceived as being so spiritually superior that they could willfully change halacha. They are viewed as spiritual superhumans who are not to be disobeyed and they're command is Toras Moshe. In reality the rabbanim are only able to work within the confines of halacha, and unless halacha dictates that an act is forbidden or permissible the Rabbis are powerless to declare something as Assur or muttar (with the questionable exception of a Rabbinic ban, which either way does not take on the strindencies of a normal halacha).
7
Jun 24, 2009 at 12:09 PM Anonymous Says:
"However, to make it an "eveireh"? "
Smoking has been an aveira ever since it was known that it causes health problems. We are commanded to safeguard our health. It would be nice if rabbis finally took a stand on this.
"Bottom line, when someone is soposed to live he lives if not nothing will stop it."
Many sages feel that how hashem decides to treat us is very much dependant on our behavior. If we do reckless and dangerous things, then hashem might decide that we might deserve illness or death because of this.
8
Jun 24, 2009 at 12:05 PM Anonymous Says:
“ while she is right in what she says i think its not the nicest way of thinking only about you when your (beloved) husband is about to die ”
she is talking from her heart
9
Jun 24, 2009 at 12:03 PM Meir Says:
I get it -elbows are a major sin but putting poison in your body is OK "ushemartem es nafshoseichem"
10
Jun 24, 2009 at 12:00 PM CHAIM Says:
problem is that a lot of these same roshei yeshivas and rabbonim are smokers themselves,so it will never happen.
but what they really should do and that might help,when a tragedy does happen and a yungerman who has smoked for years and rachmono litzlon,burns his lungs and develops lung cancer,and dies and leaves an almonah with a housefull of yesoimim,
when doing the hespeidim,they should not lie to us,by telling us this happened because we talked in shull or because our wives stockings are see through or loshon hara,etc,etc, they should tell us the truth that everyone knows it is the reason,
they should scream out RABBOISAI,THIS YUNGERMAN DIED BECAUSE HE COMMITED SUICIDE,ANYONE WHO SMOKES IS A' M'AVAD ATZMOH LDAAS'
HE IS COMMITING SUICIDE,AND HE WILL LOSE HIS OILAM HABBA.,AND IT IS A BIGGER SIN THAN EATING A PORK SANDWICH ON YOM KIPUR..
this might help and maybe a small percentage of people hearing this will stop smoking.but of course they will never tell us this truth,because they themselves smoke
11
Jun 24, 2009 at 12:00 PM Yankee Says:
“ I know this does not address the point of the letter, but as sad as this womans plight is it shows a distorted belief in the ability of Rabbonim that is so prevalent in this generation. The "Gedolim" are perceived as being so spiritually superior that they could willfully change halacha. They are viewed as spiritual superhumans who are not to be disobeyed and they're command is Toras Moshe. In reality the rabbanim are only able to work within the confines of halacha, and unless halacha dictates that an act is forbidden or permissible the Rabbis are powerless to declare something as Assur or muttar (with the questionable exception of a Rabbinic ban, which either way does not take on the strindencies of a normal halacha). ”
Have you ever heard of "chamura sekanta me'usira"? Nowadays it's common knowledge that smoking is a sekana. Not a day goes by without a new study coming out about the bad effects of cigarette smoke. The Bobover Rebbe R' Shlome ZT"L, back in 1976 warned his chassidim about this. There is no heter whatsoever to smoke & Rabbonim don't need to come out with a new issur. Smoking has been assur for a long long time.
12
Jun 24, 2009 at 11:58 AM Anonymous Says:
“ I know this does not address the point of the letter, but as sad as this womans plight is it shows a distorted belief in the ability of Rabbonim that is so prevalent in this generation. The "Gedolim" are perceived as being so spiritually superior that they could willfully change halacha. They are viewed as spiritual superhumans who are not to be disobeyed and they're command is Toras Moshe. In reality the rabbanim are only able to work within the confines of halacha, and unless halacha dictates that an act is forbidden or permissible the Rabbis are powerless to declare something as Assur or muttar (with the questionable exception of a Rabbinic ban, which either way does not take on the strindencies of a normal halacha). ”
You may be right, however, a Ruv may impose his will on his congregants. So, if each Ruv won't permit his smoking congregants to daven for the Amud, get an Aliyah, or be included in a minyan in HIS SHUL, then it will have the desired effect.
It is the the Ruv's shul and he can impose any rules he wishes. All the Rabbanim need to do is to band together and impose the same rules in their own respective shuls.
13
Jun 24, 2009 at 11:57 AM Anonymous Says:
The sad moral of the story - people listen and adhere to what the gedolim say more than they listen to their wives. Very sad.
14
Jun 24, 2009 at 11:46 AM bochrim smoking is obscene Says:
I agree as it pertains to anybody that started smoking after 1967.
Anybody that started smoking after 1967 knew the truth that smoking causes disease.
My uncle, OBM, stopped smoking the week of the anouncement by the Surgeon General, the damage was done and he perished later of lung ca.
The sight of young bochrim smoking today is obscene and must be eradicated.
To those that point out that many more people would be sick due to second hand smoke and feels this changes the reality- you must be smoking an illegal substance or be otherwise brain impaired.
15
Jun 24, 2009 at 12:17 PM Raphael Kaufman Says:
“ A sad story but there are plenty of activities that one can engage in that are harmful to ones health. I support education early on to dissuade our children from picking up the habit. However, to make it an "eveireh"? Legislating morality and behaviour never works and forcing a confirmed smoker to quit, not for themselves but because of another person, this will only result in that persons resentment to the other and sholem bayis will suffer as a result. Ive seen this too many times when a wife "forces" a husband to quit. It doesn't work and issues will arise. Careful what you ask for. ”
"... legislating behavior never works" Are you serious? We have a whole Torah, Shaas, Shulchan Aruch, Mishna Berurah that "legislates" our behavior down to which shoe one should put on first in the morning. Al pi din, is someone allowed to deliberately injure themselves? Is someone allowed to deliberatly endanger other people? The evidence is overwhelming that smoking is injurious both to the smoker and those near him. I think this woman's point is exactly correct. People who begin smoking or don't quit are, in effect, knowingly commiting suicide.
Also #6. Psak requires two conditions: Knowledge of halacha and knowledge of metzius. For instance, in the early part of the twentieth century (of the common era), poskim ruled that turning on electric lights was assur on Shabbos als havorah (there were other sforahs, but that was the most prevelant). The halacha was well known that havorah is assur on Shabbos. The poskim ruled that the metzius of electric light constituted havorah. So too in the case of smoking. The issur of deliberately injuring oneself is clear. What the poskim can rule is that the metzius of smoking consitutes self injury.
16
Jun 24, 2009 at 12:14 PM Anonymous Says:
Why do we need gedolim to tell us what is common sense? People should stop smoking on their own. Leave the gedolim alone.
17
Jun 24, 2009 at 01:03 PM Y from B. P. Says:
To the Bnei Torah who smoke (or bochrim that are not yet hooked):
I was present when Horav Yacov Kaminetsky spoke during a Sholosh Seudos and said 'after my heart attack, the doctor forbade me to smoke. I stopped smoking and eventually found my head to be much clearer than before'. And he continued, 'and who knows how much Torah has been lost to klal Yisroel because I smoked'!!'.
18
Jun 24, 2009 at 01:01 PM chaim Says:
smoking is an avaireh..'ushmartem es nafshsoaychem' nobody says other wise..
19
Jun 24, 2009 at 12:59 PM Anonymous Says:
It is in fact an aveirah today because it is now well documented that it causes cancer in Many cases, and it is addictive so you cant say I will only have one a day. Yeshivos in the US finally started banning smoking on Purim. They banned giving out Choson cigarettlech (rememebr those)? Now it is left to the Israeli Yeshivos to ban it. Any Rebbe who smokes in public, even outside the BH should be fired. If you saw the Rebbe eating Pork wouldnt you do the same? And while we're on the topic of health, we should also encourage exercise, walking, eating less, drinking less. No big smorgs, no hard liquor at Simchas. But smoking is the first order of business. WIves- dont allow smoking in the house and threaten to boycot laundry and cooking if the smoking continues.
20
Jun 24, 2009 at 12:57 PM shmerel Says:
with all due respect and a refuah shelema , yeshuas hashem keharef ein..but it is not the duty of every rav, melamed, poisek to go into everybodys house and police it. and if a rav whoever will see someone speeding he has to stop him?, what about you .why is he rav more mechiav to ....its no comparison to solicit..the rav, rabbonim dont solicit.it is a private individulaL OR individuals who solicit. they go to known rabbonim who know the situation and sign their name as to veryfy this private indivisdual (s) are not frauds...PLEEEEASE POST THE NAME SO WE CAN BE MISPALLEL!!!
21
Jun 24, 2009 at 12:50 PM gmach Says:
B'H
There's an amazing book written by Allen Carr titled "How to stop smoking the easy way" IT IS THE MOST INCREDIBLE & AMAZING BOOK... IT WORKS!!
I was a smoker for 20 plus years...tried everything ...stopped with nicotine gum for 3 years then started again & could never quit again.. I read the book one day (smoked a pack while reading it!) & STOPPED COLD.. I've never had an urge since b'h...I was so impressed that I ordered 10 books & gave them out to all my smoking friends ..an amazing thing happened ...only 3 friends stopped ....the other 7 NEVER even read it!! (smokers are so brainwashed in their thinking that they're even scared to read a book that may help them quit !...." HOW CAN I QUIT? I'm to afraid to even consider life without my nicotine fix ...I NEED IT SO BAD!!!) that is how krum a nicotine addicts brain thinks EVEN THOUGH THEY ALL WANT TO QUIT SO BAD!!!
FACT #1: NO SMOKER WILL QUIT FROM SCARE TACTICS (stand outside a hospital & see the top doctors & medical professionals who have just witnessed the most horrible effects on their patients PUFFING AWAY!)
FACT #2: NICOTINE IS A DRUG. IT IS MORE POWERFUL THEN MARIJUANA OR COCAINE
(using the patch or gum rarely works because the smoker is still getting his fix)
FACT #3: NO SMOKER CHOOSES TO BECOME A NICOTINE ADDICT!
(Most started as teenagers & always thought " I'M NOT A SMOKER I CAN QUIT ANYTIME!)
FACT#4: UNLIKE OTHER DRUGS ,THE PHYSICAL WITHDRAWAL FROM NICOTINE IS MINIMAL AT BEST
(After 3 days most of the physical craving is gone... ITS THE MENTAL PART WHICH IS SO HARD TO OVERCOME... AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE BOOK HELPS THE SMOKER OVERCOME !
You can search utube for allen carr he was interviewed many times on BBC & other networks. You can also order the book on amazon or barnes & noble online
"THINK OF HOW MANY LIVES YOU CAN SAVE FOR $14!"
I have set up a book gmach l'zecher nishmas a relative. Please email me at smokersgmach@yahoo.com and I will send you as many books as you need....IF YOU CAN ONLY CONVINCE THE SMOKER TO READ IT ...HE WILL STOP!!
KOl HAMATZIL NEFESH ACHAS......
22
Jun 24, 2009 at 12:45 PM Buy the Patch instead of the Pack Says:
Please, this is not intended to offend anyone. It is only a plea.
We do not need rabbonim to tell us smoking is an avaira.
By now, anyone with ANY level of saichel KNOWS smoking KILLS.
There are no longer excuses to continue smoking.
If you are "incapable" of going without nicotine, take the nicotine patches.
They deliver the nicotine, just as if you smoked, but not the cancerous TAR or the CO.
Of course, the patches can be used to gradually cut down from high levels of nicotine addiction, to lower levels, and eventually off the drug entirely.
But for those unwilling to go without the drug, you do not need to kill yourselves with smoking to get the drug. Just buy the patch instead of the pack.
Also, to smoke is not only to kill yourself, but it kills others. Others look at you and copy you. You don't believe that? If YOU were the only smoker around you would feel foolish and stop. If you deny that, you are a liar.
So, by allowing people to see you smoke, you are committing MURDER.
23
Jun 24, 2009 at 12:42 PM Anonymous Says:
AFTER ALL PEOPLE HAVE MORE TRUST IN DOCTORS THEN IN GDOLIM IF DOCTORS SAY ITS NOT HEALTHY AND PEOPLE DONT LISTEN WHY MAKE IT AN ISIR AND BE THEM MCAHYIV AND THEY WONT LISTEN EITHER MITAV SYIYAHA SHOGGIN.
24
Jun 24, 2009 at 12:37 PM Very Sad Says:
This is tragic and I am very saddened by this letter writer for her mishpucha. She definately needs help and consolation from Rav Twersky and I hope she receives many bruchas from HKBH. What hashkafah nekudah can we make when a heavy gazerah is made in Shomayim? Why were there so many Shoahs? Say Tehillim and learn Torah. Do maasim tovim and give tzeddukah. May HKBH help us all.
25
Jun 24, 2009 at 12:33 PM Benzion Twerski Says:
I am copying a portion of a comment on this article that was posted on rabbihorowitz.com.
In response to an earlier comment, it is already assur, why make another issur? There is a simple reason. There are way too many people, who began smoking even after most poskim had already stated that it was assur. Only Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT"L had chosen not to declare it as an "issur", though he was clear that "Shomer nafsho yirchak mimenu". Today's smokers are defying the issur that all these other poskim stated (see below), and are ignorant enough to proclaim that Rav Moshe gave a heter to smoke, which is disgracefully inaccurate. The purpose of declaring smoking an aveirah is to cancel out the defensive lines of denial that attribute a heter when none exists. The issur was not made by rabbonim, it is an issur min haTorah, dating back to Matan Torah.
From the comment on rabbihorowitz.com:
For several years, I had wondered why Rabbonim who would readily ban various other things were resistant to making smoking a recognized issur. The halachic support for this is well documented, and the names of those supporting the halachic issur are well known to all. Let me list some of them: Rav Chaim Palagi ZT”L, Rav Ovadia Yosef shlit”a, Rav Benzion Abba-Shaul, Rav Chaim Pinchos Sheinberg shlit”a, Rav Eliezer Waldenberg ZT”L, Rav Moshe Stern (Debreziner Rav) ZT”L, Rav Avrohom Yaakov Zilesnik, Rav Shlomo Wolbe ZT”L, Rav Aharon Leib Shteinman shlit”a, Rav Moshe Shmuel Shapiro ZT”L, Rav Michel Yehuda Lefkowitz shlit”a, Rav Shmuel Wosner shlit”a, Rav Nissim Karelitz shlit”a, Rav Boruch Dov Povarsky shlit”a, Rav Matisyahu Salomon shlit”a, Rav Yitzchok Zilverstein shlit”a, Chofetz Chaim ZT”L, Chazon Ish ZT”L, Rav Schach ZT”L, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach ZT”L, Rav Shlomo Halberstam (Bobover Rebbe) ZT”L. This is a partial list. (I hope I was accurate with those blessed for arichus yomim and those whose memories are beacons for our present and future.)
I raised this question with several Rabbonim when I had such opportunity. I did not find anyone disagreeing with the issur. All felt it was unnecessary to state, would not be obeyed, or were unwilling to take a stand (out of anivus – they felt that someone greater than them should make the statement). Yet, my observation is that there are more smokers now than there were just a few short years ago. In most places where I daven, there are cigarette butts paving the areas outside of the shuls. Every Yom Tov, I catch people taking their cigarettes to the candles in the shul to light up. I have yet to meet a Rav who will ask a smoker to stop or to find elsewhere to daven. There is complacency about this issue. It is not less significant than bugs in the water (chamira sakanta mei’issurah).
26
Jun 24, 2009 at 12:30 PM Anonymous Says:
Its not the smoking that's killing her husband as Harav Vosner said its talking in middle davening that's causing it the previous Bobver Rebbe said the same thing that's why the Bobover Rebbe today does not stand on his place he runs around the whole davening making sure no one talks
27
Jun 24, 2009 at 12:29 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Oh common, I'm not a smoker but i dont understand. If smoking was the cause their should be lot of people with the same machla without smoking becase of secondhand smoking. There are somany people that get sick nowadays and they were perfectly healthy followed the rules that they were told to do. It remind of what my grandfather told me once, the malach hamuvas didnt want to be the killer of people he told heshem, when one dies evrone will hate him and dislike, so hashem told him, dont worry, nobody will blame you; the heart failed, he was a somker, it was a stroke, weak imuune systym. Bottom line, when someone is soposed to live he lives if not nothing will stop it. Rachmunu litslon!Btw what do you want from this person you think its easy to stop smoking there are people that duy just from stoping to smoke. ”
Nobody "duy"s from stopping to smoke - that's a ridiculous statement. Smoking is one of, if not the leading cause of death and it leads to tons of health problems which are very painful to live with. You have an obligation to take care of the body that houses your neshama. You're fooling yourself by believing that you are not obligated to try to manage your health because it is not in your control whether you live or die. If you follow that thought process why not walk off of cliffs or in front of cars - if it's not your time you won't be injured or killed.
28
Jun 24, 2009 at 01:50 PM ex smoker Says:
I smoked for 12 years and then quit by using nicotine gum. The thing to be aware of is that prolonged use of the gum (more than 12 weeks) can cause circulatory problems (which it did to me) and should be avoided. This fact is something I discovered the hard way and want to make everyone aware of it.
29
Jun 24, 2009 at 01:42 PM Anonymous Says:
you want smoking to stop, stop supporting yeshivas that allow bochurim to smoke any where but the bais medrash. if a bochur is "redd" for a shidduch and he is a smoker turn it down immediately and let the shadchen let the parents know why.
30
Jun 24, 2009 at 01:36 PM ah nechtige tug Says:
“ Oh common, I'm not a smoker but i dont understand. If smoking was the cause their should be lot of people with the same machla without smoking becase of secondhand smoking. There are somany people that get sick nowadays and they were perfectly healthy followed the rules that they were told to do. It remind of what my grandfather told me once, the malach hamuvas didnt want to be the killer of people he told heshem, when one dies evrone will hate him and dislike, so hashem told him, dont worry, nobody will blame you; the heart failed, he was a somker, it was a stroke, weak imuune systym. Bottom line, when someone is soposed to live he lives if not nothing will stop it. Rachmunu litslon!Btw what do you want from this person you think its easy to stop smoking there are people that duy just from stoping to smoke. ”
So its your opinion that a person can endanger themselves since "if they are supposed to die nothing will stop it?"??
Ludicrous! What about the mitzvah midoyraysa of vinishmartem miod linafshosaychem?
31
Jun 24, 2009 at 01:35 PM yenta Says:
“ A sad story but there are plenty of activities that one can engage in that are harmful to ones health. I support education early on to dissuade our children from picking up the habit. However, to make it an "eveireh"? Legislating morality and behaviour never works and forcing a confirmed smoker to quit, not for themselves but because of another person, this will only result in that persons resentment to the other and sholem bayis will suffer as a result. Ive seen this too many times when a wife "forces" a husband to quit. It doesn't work and issues will arise. Careful what you ask for. ”
This is not "legislating morality". It is simply make it perfectly clear that one who smokes, is a me'abed atzmo lo'daas, and since he has no pity on himself, he should be put on notice that the tzibbur will not have any pity on him either. I think it's an excellent idea.
32
Jun 24, 2009 at 02:08 PM esther Says:
“ Oh common, I'm not a smoker but i dont understand. If smoking was the cause their should be lot of people with the same machla without smoking becase of secondhand smoking. There are somany people that get sick nowadays and they were perfectly healthy followed the rules that they were told to do. It remind of what my grandfather told me once, the malach hamuvas didnt want to be the killer of people he told heshem, when one dies evrone will hate him and dislike, so hashem told him, dont worry, nobody will blame you; the heart failed, he was a somker, it was a stroke, weak imuune systym. Bottom line, when someone is soposed to live he lives if not nothing will stop it. Rachmunu litslon!Btw what do you want from this person you think its easy to stop smoking there are people that duy just from stoping to smoke. ”
yes of course ultimately life or death and everything else is up to Hashem but we have to do our part.don't you work to make a living?don't you teach your children hoe to cross the street safely?not accepting responsibility for our actions is immature.
33
Jun 24, 2009 at 02:06 PM Anonymous Says:
“ This is not "legislating morality". It is simply make it perfectly clear that one who smokes, is a me'abed atzmo lo'daas, and since he has no pity on himself, he should be put on notice that the tzibbur will not have any pity on him either. I think it's an excellent idea. ”
"me'abed atzmo lo'daas". Sorry but he is not. Get your talmudic facts straight. ..and the statistics straight. Not everyone who does something dangerous and puts himself in harms way is a me'abed atzmo lo'daas. Some are actually heros or do it for a living. Construction workers for example..........
34
Jun 24, 2009 at 02:00 PM PMO Says:
This is a tragedy of huge proportions for this family and the pain this woman and her children feel is certainly unbearable.
However, we are way too quick to blame the cigarettes. Don't get me wrong, cigarettes are bad for you. However, this is a relatively young man (judging by his 9 school-age children). Cancers caused by or exacerbated by cigarette smoking generally do not cause life threatening illness in people this young. Usually those who get cancers before the age of 55 are genetically predisposed, or are exposed to high levels of cancer causing agents (asbestos, radiation, etc).
In my family (as I have written about before), my grandfathers who smoked lived into their 90's. My aunt who never smoked died at 62 when an unstoppable cancer ravaged her entire body. My cousin who never smoked died around 50 from lung cancer.
My heart cries for her and her children. However, to make wild assumptions that this was caused by cigarettes is irresponsible. There are many factors at play with cancer such as diet (eating processed foods may be worse than smoking according to some), environmental factors (air pollution, asbestos, radiation, etc.), and most importantly GENETICS.
Please realize that the average person in NYC breathes in far more carcinogens just walking outside than someone in Palm Beach, FL. That difference (according to environmental studies) is similar in effect to the smoking of 3 cigarettes per day. Your lifestyle and where you live may have a huge impact on your chances of getting certain cancers.
I know some will say that I am being insensitive to the woman's story. I'm not. I know how this goes. Someone writes a story, everyone gets up in arms about smoking causing cancer, and then the story fades away while all the self-righteous non-smokers feel a phony sense of pride that they somehow have less of a chance of developing cancer. It is not true. Cancer rates among smokers are higher... but not MUCH higher. We all need to look at our family histories, the disgusting processed foods that we allow into our homes, the horrible chemicals we allow to be sprayed on our produce, and the amount of air pollution in the cities we live in.
If someone can say that a person who smokes a few cigarettes a day is "committing suicide", than anyone who chooses to live in a city with extremely high levels of air pollution is doing the same thing. It is an irrational argument driven by emotion. You can read all sorts of books about the effects of various carcinogens in food, drinks and the air you breathe.
As for what this woman is going through, I can't imagine the pain and long-term suffering her family will go through. If there was some piece of me I could give to help her husband, I would it in a second. This is a genuine tragedy and she has my utmost sympathy.
35
Jun 24, 2009 at 02:12 PM great story Says:
“ To the Bnei Torah who smoke (or bochrim that are not yet hooked):
I was present when Horav Yacov Kaminetsky spoke during a Sholosh Seudos and said 'after my heart attack, the doctor forbade me to smoke. I stopped smoking and eventually found my head to be much clearer than before'. And he continued, 'and who knows how much Torah has been lost to klal Yisroel because I smoked'!!'. ”
Wow!! Gr8 story about R' yaakov, ztz"l. His story also makes me feel good 'cuz I takeh only let my sons smoke Bein Hazmanim. B4 u all call me nuts, tell me, what other release can they have? Movies? Assur. Ball Games? Assur. Smoking 3 or 4 a day, only Bein Hazmanim ? Perfect.
36
Jun 24, 2009 at 01:33 PM Bachur18 Says:
Reply to some of the above:
In the era of the bais ha mikdash, when someone got sick, they would go to the navi or kohen, & they would tell them what they did wrong, & how to do teshuvah, & after doing so, the machala would disappear. Unfortunately, we lost this ability, firstly because we have no neviim, & secondly because people found it easier to go to doctors for medicinal remedies, than to go & daven & do teshuva. So we lost this ability to know exactly what we need to fix, & we go to doctors, yet to get the refuah, we must still do the teshuvah; so yes its possible for smoking to be an aveira, especially on these terms, because ....it makes you sick!! And aveiros make you sick.(see the ramban in parshas behaloscha).
Secondly, # 3 - I don't know how you have the audacity to speak about gedolim that way. We just passed Shavous, & most "gedolim" begin to prepare for yom kippur immediately afterwords, so for you, you must be one of the gedolei reshaim, & well, your preparing real well for. Think before you write & express yourself next time. Quite frankly, i think you should study this weeks sidrah with extrah kavanna (parsha korach- since you probably dont know.if you could speak of gedolim that way) Hopefully you will repent & wont end up in the Be'er Shachas too.
37
Jun 24, 2009 at 01:27 PM Raphael Kaufman Says:
“ while she is right in what she says i think its not the nicest way of thinking only about you when your (beloved) husband is about to die ”
Her anger is rightous and justified. She is thinking of her nine soon to be yesomim R'L. She is thinking what every good mother ought to be thinking, ought to be asking their husbands. "never mind what your ta'avah is doing to you or your wife, HOW COULD YOU DO THIS TO YOUR CHILDREN?" It's not she who is acting selfishly. Her husband's selfishness is the issue.
38
Jun 24, 2009 at 01:26 PM Anonymous Says:
As a smoker. this letter ripped me a part.. this picture is ugly.
39
Jun 24, 2009 at 12:29 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Why do we need gedolim to tell us what is common sense? People should stop smoking on their own. Leave the gedolim alone. ”
“Why do we need gedolim to tell us what is common sense? People should stop smoking on their own. Leave the gedolim alone.”
On most issues, the views of the Gadolim would be given considerable weight by most yidden who live their lives based on torah and mitzvot. I agree that on these kinds of issues related to personal health and well being, one should rely on their own views, irrespective of what the Gadolim might say.
40
Jun 24, 2009 at 12:27 PM Anonymous Says:
Smoking should be banned and so should all of the junk food. A hechsher should not be given on junk food.
41
Jun 24, 2009 at 12:26 PM FrumsterYid Says:
What is going on over here?
Did Horav Moshe Feinstein zt"l not already pasken on this very subject.
Are we so great today spiritually that we can disregard Rav Moshe's psak?
42
Jun 24, 2009 at 12:25 PM Raphael Kaufman Says:
“ Oh common, I'm not a smoker but i dont understand. If smoking was the cause their should be lot of people with the same machla without smoking becase of secondhand smoking. There are somany people that get sick nowadays and they were perfectly healthy followed the rules that they were told to do. It remind of what my grandfather told me once, the malach hamuvas didnt want to be the killer of people he told heshem, when one dies evrone will hate him and dislike, so hashem told him, dont worry, nobody will blame you; the heart failed, he was a somker, it was a stroke, weak imuune systym. Bottom line, when someone is soposed to live he lives if not nothing will stop it. Rachmunu litslon!Btw what do you want from this person you think its easy to stop smoking there are people that duy just from stoping to smoke. ”
The evidence that "second hand smoke" is harmful is not really so clear. However, the evidence that smoking is the primary cause of lung cancer is overwhelming. Lung cancer among people who never smokes is so rare that it is a clinical curiosity. Your Zeide notwithstanding, it is assur to put oneself in a makon sakanah. A person is required, al pi din, to guard his health. As Jews, we believe that we can, and must, have control over our own lives and ta'avos. Fatalism is not a Jewish concept.
43
Jun 24, 2009 at 12:21 PM Anonymous Says:
very trebbile wat has happened. however the rabbis today can't change halachah. as well if u want smoking made against halachah there r lot of killers out there that should b outlawed. smoking is bad we knw wat the effects are. we must have will power not to smoke and I knw its hard because I was a smoker
44
Jun 24, 2009 at 03:16 PM Benzion Twerski Says:
“ What is going on over here?
Did Horav Moshe Feinstein zt"l not already pasken on this very subject.
Are we so great today spiritually that we can disregard Rav Moshe's psak?
”
Let me clarify. Rav Moshe ZT"L advised against smoking, but declined from paskening that it is assur. Basically, there is not a psak from Rav Moshe, just his stated absence of one. Meanwhile, so many other poskim did pasken clearly that it is assur. See the list I presented in comment #25. I will add to that two others whose psak I heard but did not see in print. Rav Aharon Kotler is reported to have spoken on this and stated that smoking is an issur min haTorah. I was told that this was recorded. I did not hear that tape, but heard from others, talmidim of Rav Aharon that did. I also heard from members of the family of Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky ZT"L who stated the same. He only withheld from making this statement into a public proclamation because he feared it would not be accepted. You are free to seek verification of these two additional gedolim who were certain about the issur.
45
Jun 24, 2009 at 03:09 PM Anonymous Says:
If the rabbonim were to accomodate this request to issue an issur against smoking, they would have to issue similiar churmahs against eating red meat and fatty foods which today kill more yiddin than smoking. Indeed, given even if smoking were no longer an issue, than are many more "lifestyle" issues that could be invoked. Do we really want the gadolim functioning as "nannies" telling us what we can and cannot eat (outside of kashruth of course).
46
Jun 24, 2009 at 02:58 PM many non smokers develop lung cancer Says:
don't delude yourselves, i personally know three poeple one who passed away and two who are battling lung cancer-they were not smokers nore were they around smokers.
While I may think that smoking is not smart, enhaling chimney smoke down your lungs. There is enough evidence that it definitly harms your health.
There is a component in cancer and in all diseases- if your destined to a number of days on this earth you can not outlive your predestination by HaKadosh Borchu.
47
Jun 24, 2009 at 03:23 PM CHAIM Says:
to #26 ,if you realy believe that,you belong in a mental asylum for the criminally insane.
someone smoking two packs a day,and eventually develops lung cancer and dies
the reason is NOT BECAUSE HE WAS TALKING IN SHUL,NO,NO.NO
it is BECAUSE HE SMOKED,YES BECAUSE HE SMOKED,
and any rov or rebbe or roish hayeshiva who tells you differently is nothing but
a cheap demagouge,because he knows it is not true,
48
Jun 24, 2009 at 03:49 PM Dave Says:
“ If the rabbonim were to accomodate this request to issue an issur against smoking, they would have to issue similiar churmahs against eating red meat and fatty foods which today kill more yiddin than smoking. Indeed, given even if smoking were no longer an issue, than are many more "lifestyle" issues that could be invoked. Do we really want the gadolim functioning as "nannies" telling us what we can and cannot eat (outside of kashruth of course). ”
So, the implication in there is that Halacha is determined by what people want.
If Halacha forbids smoking (or overeating, or indulging in fatty foods), it forbids it. If it doesn't, it doesn't.
Either way, what you want the Gedolim to tell you would seem to be irrelevent. Unless of course, Halacha is determined by what people want.
49
Jun 24, 2009 at 03:47 PM Dave Says:
“ This is a tragedy of huge proportions for this family and the pain this woman and her children feel is certainly unbearable.
However, we are way too quick to blame the cigarettes. Don't get me wrong, cigarettes are bad for you. However, this is a relatively young man (judging by his 9 school-age children). Cancers caused by or exacerbated by cigarette smoking generally do not cause life threatening illness in people this young. Usually those who get cancers before the age of 55 are genetically predisposed, or are exposed to high levels of cancer causing agents (asbestos, radiation, etc).
In my family (as I have written about before), my grandfathers who smoked lived into their 90's. My aunt who never smoked died at 62 when an unstoppable cancer ravaged her entire body. My cousin who never smoked died around 50 from lung cancer.
My heart cries for her and her children. However, to make wild assumptions that this was caused by cigarettes is irresponsible. There are many factors at play with cancer such as diet (eating processed foods may be worse than smoking according to some), environmental factors (air pollution, asbestos, radiation, etc.), and most importantly GENETICS.
Please realize that the average person in NYC breathes in far more carcinogens just walking outside than someone in Palm Beach, FL. That difference (according to environmental studies) is similar in effect to the smoking of 3 cigarettes per day. Your lifestyle and where you live may have a huge impact on your chances of getting certain cancers.
I know some will say that I am being insensitive to the woman's story. I'm not. I know how this goes. Someone writes a story, everyone gets up in arms about smoking causing cancer, and then the story fades away while all the self-righteous non-smokers feel a phony sense of pride that they somehow have less of a chance of developing cancer. It is not true. Cancer rates among smokers are higher... but not MUCH higher. We all need to look at our family histories, the disgusting processed foods that we allow into our homes, the horrible chemicals we allow to be sprayed on our produce, and the amount of air pollution in the cities we live in.
If someone can say that a person who smokes a few cigarettes a day is "committing suicide", than anyone who chooses to live in a city with extremely high levels of air pollution is doing the same thing. It is an irrational argument driven by emotion. You can read all sorts of books about the effects of various carcinogens in food, drinks and the air you breathe.
As for what this woman is going through, I can't imagine the pain and long-term suffering her family will go through. If there was some piece of me I could give to help her husband, I would it in a second. This is a genuine tragedy and she has my utmost sympathy. ”
For lung cancer:
85-90% of all Lung Cancer deaths are attributed to Smoking
Smokers have a 15 times greater chance of dying from Lung Cancer than Nonsmokers
That is in fact, "much higher".
50
Jun 24, 2009 at 03:46 PM Anonymous Says:
“ to #26 ,if you realy believe that,you belong in a mental asylum for the criminally insane.
someone smoking two packs a day,and eventually develops lung cancer and dies
the reason is NOT BECAUSE HE WAS TALKING IN SHUL,NO,NO.NO
it is BECAUSE HE SMOKED,YES BECAUSE HE SMOKED,
and any rov or rebbe or roish hayeshiva who tells you differently is nothing but
a cheap demagouge,because he knows it is not true,
”
its actually a gemara in brachos i think. one of the tanaim was bitten by a poisionous snake that had kiled many people. he stuck his foot in the snake hole it bit him and the snake died. then he said its not the snake that kills rather its aveiros.
51
Jun 24, 2009 at 03:44 PM Anonymous Says:
“ to #26 ,if you realy believe that,you belong in a mental asylum for the criminally insane.
someone smoking two packs a day,and eventually develops lung cancer and dies
the reason is NOT BECAUSE HE WAS TALKING IN SHUL,NO,NO.NO
it is BECAUSE HE SMOKED,YES BECAUSE HE SMOKED,
and any rov or rebbe or roish hayeshiva who tells you differently is nothing but
a cheap demagouge,because he knows it is not true,
”
Check out VIN you will see the true daas torah what's the cause of cancer
52
Jun 24, 2009 at 03:43 PM Anonymous Says:
why isnt driving assur its definetly dangerous even with a seatbelt? how many almonos and yisomim were nebech left behind because of a fatal accident? take public transportation its definetly safer. granite counters also cause the machala. posibly cellphones too. oh but you wouldnt wanna give up driving or your cellphone, so why does everyone pick on smoking?
53
Jun 24, 2009 at 04:11 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Her anger is rightous and justified. She is thinking of her nine soon to be yesomim R'L. She is thinking what every good mother ought to be thinking, ought to be asking their husbands. "never mind what your ta'avah is doing to you or your wife, HOW COULD YOU DO THIS TO YOUR CHILDREN?" It's not she who is acting selfishly. Her husband's selfishness is the issue. ”
come on while every makes mistakes in life lets not forget the biggest tragady here is that HE is going to die and the fact that she talks about him like this shows she is really...............
54
Jun 24, 2009 at 04:22 PM NO WAY Says:
“ why isnt driving assur its definetly dangerous even with a seatbelt? how many almonos and yisomim were nebech left behind because of a fatal accident? take public transportation its definetly safer. granite counters also cause the machala. posibly cellphones too. oh but you wouldnt wanna give up driving or your cellphone, so why does everyone pick on smoking? ”
NO Way! We do not "pick on smoking" ... if you read what we write here, you will see we speak out against all those things.
Anything one does which is bad for him is stupid.
By the way, what is wrong with genuine granite counters?
55
Jun 24, 2009 at 04:20 PM Don't be a FOOL Says:
The foolish arguments of
"Other things can kill you too, and are not ossur."
"Non smokers also get lung cancer."
as well as the rest of the foolish arguments.
Look, we ALL know that smoking kills.
Shooting one's self is also bad for your health, and will likely kill you. But, others die without shooting themselves. Should we therefore consider it a good thing to shoot ourselves?
Sometimes people get shot and don't die. Should that make it okay to shoot people?
Just because some people find other ways to die, does not mean they should not have avoided smoking!
Anyone who still believes smoking does not severly harm one's health, is soooo stupid that maybe he should be forced to smoke. Maybe it will prevent him from reproducing more idiots!
While I am NOT for any anti-smoking legisltation, since we do live in a democracy, and people should have the legal right to harm themselves, I do believe it is absolutely ossur to smoke.
For you who keep reminding us that Rav Moshe stopped short of assuring smoking, let be bring up a few thoughts.
1. We have MUCH more concrete proof and evidence now than we had only 20 years ago.
2. It is a major responsibility to Ossur something, since it places an avaira on a person who does not listen. It is bad enough he is doing it "b'shogeg" not understanding it is ossur. But, once it is publicized that Rav Moshe assured it, and if keeps on smoking, every puff would be an avaira. Hence stating that issur clearly is a scary thing for a rov. Maybe he believed his clear discouragemente of smoking would stop those who had already not started.
3. Rav Moshe may have believed that it was impossible or just too difficult for the smokers, the heavy addicts, to stop. Now we know we have anti-smoking aids which DO WORK.
4. Back then the number of successful quitters was small. Today we all know many former heavy smokers who succeeded in quiting. So, now we know it can be done.
56
Jun 24, 2009 at 04:01 PM shmilu Says:
the gedoilim are confortable on their throns why should they endanger their lofty positions they are like figure heads dont really care about the ordinary working person
or for that matter who smokes or doesnt there are so many things today that is unhealthy for instance the everyday polution from cars pesticides not only physically but mentally the noise everyday stress its up to each one of us to care about ourselfs some of us just dont have the willpower to quit or stop eating to much
57
Jun 24, 2009 at 03:34 PM Anonymous Says:
“ What is going on over here?
Did Horav Moshe Feinstein zt"l not already pasken on this very subject.
Are we so great today spiritually that we can disregard Rav Moshe's psak?
”
An even greater tzadik and expert on smoking is Rav Moshe's son-in-law, rav tendler, Z'tl, who has issued many such poseks on the evils of smoking
58
Jun 24, 2009 at 04:32 PM ga Says:
“ Wow!! Gr8 story about R' yaakov, ztz"l. His story also makes me feel good 'cuz I takeh only let my sons smoke Bein Hazmanim. B4 u all call me nuts, tell me, what other release can they have? Movies? Assur. Ball Games? Assur. Smoking 3 or 4 a day, only Bein Hazmanim ? Perfect. ”
Do you honestly believe that they are only smoking bein hazmanim? Are you around them 24/6 during the z'man?
Didn't think so (at least, I hope you're not fooling yourself).
59
Jun 24, 2009 at 04:29 PM Anonymous Says:
back before the surgeon general said smoking caused cancer everyone smoked everywhere all the time. why didnt they all get cancer or other smoking related diseases. based on the statistis a very very high percentage of the world should have gotten smoking related disease?
60
Jun 24, 2009 at 05:15 PM Raphael Kaufman Says:
“ come on while every makes mistakes in life lets not forget the biggest tragady here is that HE is going to die and the fact that she talks about him like this shows she is really............... ”
You are certainly entitled to you opinion, however silly it may be, but her reaction is anything but selfish. As a good mother, her first concern is for her children as well it must be. As for his tragedy, if you believe, as I do, that there is an Olam HaEmes and that, after Judgement, the niftar's neshama is in tzruros hachaim, then the true tragedy is for the ones left behind. The husband will be Judged by the Dayan HaEmes and it's not for me or anyone to speculate on what that Judgment will be, but the suffering of the wife and children in this world is real and unasuageable.
61
Jun 24, 2009 at 05:09 PM Anonymous Says:
“ why isnt driving assur its definetly dangerous even with a seatbelt? how many almonos and yisomim were nebech left behind because of a fatal accident? take public transportation its definetly safer. granite counters also cause the machala. posibly cellphones too. oh but you wouldnt wanna give up driving or your cellphone, so why does everyone pick on smoking? ”
actually driving could be worse. every time you are in a car you are puting your life at risk.
62
Jun 24, 2009 at 05:32 PM Raphael Kaufman Says:
“ come on while every makes mistakes in life lets not forget the biggest tragady here is that HE is going to die and the fact that she talks about him like this shows she is really............... ”
You're right. People do make mistakes in life and they are responsible for the effect of their mistakes. If someone drives recklessly and causes an accident that kills him and kills or injures other people, did he just make a mistake? Is the "biggest tragedy" that he died? Maybe the husband thought that all of the evidence and talk about the bad effects of smoking was nonsense. Maybe he wanted to quit but just didn't want to go to the trouble. So he made a mistake that will take his life and damage if not ruin, the lives of his widow and orphans. Who has the greater tragedy?
63
Jun 24, 2009 at 05:04 PM ga Says:
“ An even greater tzadik and expert on smoking is Rav Moshe's son-in-law, rav tendler, Z'tl, who has issued many such poseks on the evils of smoking ”
You're asking for problems...
64
Jun 24, 2009 at 04:33 PM Anonymous Says:
“ NO Way! We do not "pick on smoking" ... if you read what we write here, you will see we speak out against all those things.
Anything one does which is bad for him is stupid.
By the way, what is wrong with genuine granite counters? ”
really, you dont drive because its unsafe? they came out with a study that granite countertops give off radiation that causes cancer.
65
Jun 24, 2009 at 05:46 PM Raphael Kaufman Says:
“ B'H
There's an amazing book written by Allen Carr titled "How to stop smoking the easy way" IT IS THE MOST INCREDIBLE & AMAZING BOOK... IT WORKS!!
I was a smoker for 20 plus years...tried everything ...stopped with nicotine gum for 3 years then started again & could never quit again.. I read the book one day (smoked a pack while reading it!) & STOPPED COLD.. I've never had an urge since b'h...I was so impressed that I ordered 10 books & gave them out to all my smoking friends ..an amazing thing happened ...only 3 friends stopped ....the other 7 NEVER even read it!! (smokers are so brainwashed in their thinking that they're even scared to read a book that may help them quit !...." HOW CAN I QUIT? I'm to afraid to even consider life without my nicotine fix ...I NEED IT SO BAD!!!) that is how krum a nicotine addicts brain thinks EVEN THOUGH THEY ALL WANT TO QUIT SO BAD!!!
FACT #1: NO SMOKER WILL QUIT FROM SCARE TACTICS (stand outside a hospital & see the top doctors & medical professionals who have just witnessed the most horrible effects on their patients PUFFING AWAY!)
FACT #2: NICOTINE IS A DRUG. IT IS MORE POWERFUL THEN MARIJUANA OR COCAINE
(using the patch or gum rarely works because the smoker is still getting his fix)
FACT #3: NO SMOKER CHOOSES TO BECOME A NICOTINE ADDICT!
(Most started as teenagers & always thought " I'M NOT A SMOKER I CAN QUIT ANYTIME!)
FACT#4: UNLIKE OTHER DRUGS ,THE PHYSICAL WITHDRAWAL FROM NICOTINE IS MINIMAL AT BEST
(After 3 days most of the physical craving is gone... ITS THE MENTAL PART WHICH IS SO HARD TO OVERCOME... AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE BOOK HELPS THE SMOKER OVERCOME !
You can search utube for allen carr he was interviewed many times on BBC & other networks. You can also order the book on amazon or barnes & noble online
"THINK OF HOW MANY LIVES YOU CAN SAVE FOR $14!"
I have set up a book gmach l'zecher nishmas a relative. Please email me at smokersgmach@yahoo.com and I will send you as many books as you need....IF YOU CAN ONLY CONVINCE THE SMOKER TO READ IT ...HE WILL STOP!!
KOl HAMATZIL NEFESH ACHAS......
”
My father A'H was a heavy smoker, two+ packs of Chesterfields (remember those?) a day. He developed polyps on his vocal chords which he had to have removed. The doctor told him if continued to smoke he'd end up breathing through a hole in his neck. My father quit on the spot and never smoked another cigarette. He didn't even finish the pack in his pocket. I guess scare tactics work for him. As you point out, nicotine does not produce serious physical withdawl symptoms. that being the case, simple motivation and will power, if strong enough, often works.
66
Jun 24, 2009 at 06:21 PM Anonymous Says:
this letter was not written by by a distress wife, this was written by some anti-smoking activist, the letter is 100% right
67
Jun 24, 2009 at 08:16 PM The Truth Says:
Was there ever an answer to the letter?
Anyone a Rov or Posek around here?
68
Jun 24, 2009 at 09:21 PM Anonymous Says:
“ smoking is an avaireh..'ushmartem es nafshsoaychem' nobody says other wise.. ”
Don't drive: "VNISHMARTEM MEOD LENAFSHOSEICHEML
69
Jun 24, 2009 at 10:36 PM AMG Says:
All of The life insurance companies who put their money where their mouth is considor the risk of healthy ciggerette smoker to be identical with a healthy person who had
has triple bypass two years ago. Therefore if you are the type of person who would undergo a triple bypass operation that is not medicaly needed then you should continue smoking.cigerettes with confidence
70
Jun 24, 2009 at 10:57 PM Anonymous Says:
“ You are certainly entitled to you opinion, however silly it may be, but her reaction is anything but selfish. As a good mother, her first concern is for her children as well it must be. As for his tragedy, if you believe, as I do, that there is an Olam HaEmes and that, after Judgement, the niftar's neshama is in tzruros hachaim, then the true tragedy is for the ones left behind. The husband will be Judged by the Dayan HaEmes and it's not for me or anyone to speculate on what that Judgment will be, but the suffering of the wife and children in this world is real and unasuageable. ”
i am not trieng to say i dont feel her pain, but the tragady of one dieng is not that his kids will no longer have a father( altough this is unbelievable suffering)but it is the loss of a life so for her to foucus only on what gping to happen to her (she know he didnt want that to happen either)i think is real selfish
71
Jun 24, 2009 at 10:53 PM a 12 stepper Says:
any addiction can kill - compulsive overeating - (think kiddushim), alcohol abuse, drug abuse. it is an illness - a mental obsession - just like inappropriate relations, internet abuse. ONly having a clear connection to Hashem can help avoid and get rid of these obsessions. Tefillah, davening works well.
72
Jun 25, 2009 at 01:38 AM Anonymous Says:
I do not think the author of the letter is authentic.
73
Jun 25, 2009 at 07:22 AM the 12-Step Lie Says:
“ any addiction can kill - compulsive overeating - (think kiddushim), alcohol abuse, drug abuse. it is an illness - a mental obsession - just like inappropriate relations, internet abuse. ONly having a clear connection to Hashem can help avoid and get rid of these obsessions. Tefillah, davening works well.
”
You are right. ANY addiction can kill, including addiction to 12-Step programs.
The problem with ALL 12-Step Programs is that they indoctrinate every newcomer with the LIE that he has a "disease" which is never cured, and he will never "recover"... but that he is "RECOVERING" every day for the rest of his life.
That is a bold-faced LIE.
Addicts and alcoholics can and do "Recover" completely and can lead totally normal lives.
The LIE of this permanent disease, only treatable but never curable was invented by Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob, the founders of AA back, many years ago, in working with rock-bottom alcoholics. They believed they needed to break "will" of the drunk down to the point where he is desperate to accept G-d, then tell him that he can not recover without G-d, etc., Their good intentions, and some of their correct ideas, eventually resulted in the Big Book, the bible of AA, which, written by other "recovering" drunks, taught that LIE of this permanent disease, only treatable but never curable.
While it is true that we need Hashem, we need Him in our lives for everything, including any recovery, etc.,
The idea that one can never taste the "forbidden substance" again is the lie.
The second big LIE they preach, is that ONE DROP of the "forbidden substance" will trigger the addiction to come back full force.
This can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. The former addicts/alcoholic is passed a drink at a chasuna after not drinking for 5 years. He drinks it without thinking.
If he had never been to AA, he is completely able to not have another drink. But, the AA former drinker, who believes he can never be cured, and that one drink will put him right back in the gutter, is convinced that he will now be a drunk again.
He then goes out and fulfills that.
So, though 12-Step programs do have the best recovery rates, people need to be taught that:
1. Addiction to a substance is a BEHAVIOR not a disease.
2. You can stop drinking/drugging/overeating, etc., permanently
3. When you stop that behavior, you are no longer an addict/alcoholic, you are a FORMER alcoholic/addict/overeater, etc.
4.. The "FORMER" alcoholic may have an occassional drink and not fall back to his old ways.
The "FORMER" overeater may have an occassional ice cream without binging out and gaining all his/her weight back
The "FORMER" gambler may occassionaly play kvitlech and not gamble away his mortgage money.
The "FORMER" smoker CAN occasionally have a cigarette and not go back to smoking.
True, some of the above are more difficult to stop after a "slip" ... but that is NOT due to any silly "DISEASE" ... and not even due to the substance itself, but due to the false "common knowledge" that one drop puts you back in it.
If we want REAL progress in stopping addictions, we need to bread the disease model, and face the reality that addictive behavior is a behavior.
The mild physical cravings upon withdrawal are 10% chemical from the substance, and 90% from the belief that one can't do it.
A person IS capable of stopping:
Drinking - Drugging - Smoking - Overeating - Compulsive Behaviors of "other" kinds - Gambling
74
Jun 25, 2009 at 06:50 AM leitchu Says:
#68..driving in itself is no sakonah if you observe the rules....so dont compare..you might as well say dont walk, a car might hit you or dont live you might die
75
Jun 25, 2009 at 06:48 AM leitchu Says:
#1 ok now, since everything is b'h ok by you, are you thinking of doing something regarding this subject. if nor dont be a hypochrate
76
Jun 25, 2009 at 07:30 AM End the SILENCE Says:
“ All of The life insurance companies who put their money where their mouth is considor the risk of healthy ciggerette smoker to be identical with a healthy person who had
has triple bypass two years ago. Therefore if you are the type of person who would undergo a triple bypass operation that is not medicaly needed then you should continue smoking.cigerettes with confidence ”
Amen to that one.
And, it is not even proven that those bypass surgeries extend life. They may make one more able to "lead a semi-nomal life" for a few years, but there is no real proof that one lives longer with these procedures.
Anyone who smokes today is a MORON.
But, I will be stronger in my words:
Anyone who DEFENDS smoking today, and whose words MAY cause someone else to not stop, may be considered by me to be a MURDERER.
Just debating it, gives those beginner smokers the foolish "evidence" to back their smoking up, and "justify" their idiotic behavior.
We need to stop remaining silent.
If you walked out of shul and watched a bochur or yingerman pop pills to get high, you would not walk by silently; would you?
No way! You would pull the person aside and tell him how self-destructive he is being, and URGE him to stop.
Smoking is the same thing.
We need to speak out, and help these people!
Our silence is killing them!
77
Jun 25, 2009 at 07:42 AM shmerel Says:
#76 no, i would nottell him to stop, and if i see someone speeding i also wont tell him to stop, and if i see someone ...etc etc.. i am not going to police the world, i will never finnish
78
Jun 25, 2009 at 08:08 AM Anonymous Says:
“ #68..driving in itself is no sakonah if you observe the rules....so dont compare..you might as well say dont walk, a car might hit you or dont live you might die ”
really,cars dont malfunction causing accidents? you could not speed stop at yellow lights and still get into an accident or get him by someone else. why does that not make a sakana? and you are right crossing the street is also dangerous so what is the difference in terms of being assur. somethings are necesity and cant be avoided other things smoking isnt. ok so drive only when absolutely nacessary other wise tak public transportation its definetly safer.
79
Jun 25, 2009 at 07:58 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Let me clarify. Rav Moshe ZT"L advised against smoking, but declined from paskening that it is assur. Basically, there is not a psak from Rav Moshe, just his stated absence of one. Meanwhile, so many other poskim did pasken clearly that it is assur. See the list I presented in comment #25. I will add to that two others whose psak I heard but did not see in print. Rav Aharon Kotler is reported to have spoken on this and stated that smoking is an issur min haTorah. I was told that this was recorded. I did not hear that tape, but heard from others, talmidim of Rav Aharon that did. I also heard from members of the family of Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky ZT"L who stated the same. He only withheld from making this statement into a public proclamation because he feared it would not be accepted. You are free to seek verification of these two additional gedolim who were certain about the issur. ”
Anything you "heard" but did not see in writing is almost worthless and at worst may be rechilus. Grow up and only discuss and mention the written psak. Gedolim are quoted worldwide thousands of times daily. Perhaps only one half of one percent of that is true.
80
Jun 25, 2009 at 08:42 AM PMO Says:
“ For lung cancer:
85-90% of all Lung Cancer deaths are attributed to Smoking
Smokers have a 15 times greater chance of dying from Lung Cancer than Nonsmokers
That is in fact, "much higher". ”
You are quoting a VERY old statistic.
New research shows that exposure to smoke (either 1st or 2nd hand) does not cause 85-90%. The problem is that in the 60's through the early 90's, nearly EVERYONE was regularly exposed to 2nd hand smoke so the study was flawed to begin with. Today they are learning that there are many viruses which cause lung cancer as well. Also, air pollution is being looked at more closely now, as well as working environments (blue collar workers are more likely to develop lung cancer). The problem is that most of the people used to come up with the 85-90% number are already dead. New studies show that cigarette smoking may only account for less than half.
Again, I am not claiming that smoking does not contribute to deaths... of course it does. But I am always concerned when debates leave out VERY critical facts that can leave people with a false sense of the harsh realities of lung cancer.
81
Jun 25, 2009 at 10:28 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Smoking should be banned and so should all of the junk food. A hechsher should not be given on junk food. ”
One does not equate to the other.
Smoking is addictive to most people. You either smoke or you dont.
Junk food is used in moderation for most people and only in a few does it become a problem on an addiction level
---------------------------
Anonymous Says: Says:
“ Smoking should be banned and so should all of the junk food. A hechsher should not be given on junk food. ”
----------------------------
82
Jun 25, 2009 at 11:11 AM Ph.D. Psychologist Says:
“ You are right. ANY addiction can kill, including addiction to 12-Step programs.
The problem with ALL 12-Step Programs is that they indoctrinate every newcomer with the LIE that he has a "disease" which is never cured, and he will never "recover"... but that he is "RECOVERING" every day for the rest of his life.
That is a bold-faced LIE.
Addicts and alcoholics can and do "Recover" completely and can lead totally normal lives.
The LIE of this permanent disease, only treatable but never curable was invented by Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob, the founders of AA back, many years ago, in working with rock-bottom alcoholics. They believed they needed to break "will" of the drunk down to the point where he is desperate to accept G-d, then tell him that he can not recover without G-d, etc., Their good intentions, and some of their correct ideas, eventually resulted in the Big Book, the bible of AA, which, written by other "recovering" drunks, taught that LIE of this permanent disease, only treatable but never curable.
While it is true that we need Hashem, we need Him in our lives for everything, including any recovery, etc.,
The idea that one can never taste the "forbidden substance" again is the lie.
The second big LIE they preach, is that ONE DROP of the "forbidden substance" will trigger the addiction to come back full force.
This can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. The former addicts/alcoholic is passed a drink at a chasuna after not drinking for 5 years. He drinks it without thinking.
If he had never been to AA, he is completely able to not have another drink. But, the AA former drinker, who believes he can never be cured, and that one drink will put him right back in the gutter, is convinced that he will now be a drunk again.
He then goes out and fulfills that.
So, though 12-Step programs do have the best recovery rates, people need to be taught that:
1. Addiction to a substance is a BEHAVIOR not a disease.
2. You can stop drinking/drugging/overeating, etc., permanently
3. When you stop that behavior, you are no longer an addict/alcoholic, you are a FORMER alcoholic/addict/overeater, etc.
4.. The "FORMER" alcoholic may have an occassional drink and not fall back to his old ways.
The "FORMER" overeater may have an occassional ice cream without binging out and gaining all his/her weight back
The "FORMER" gambler may occassionaly play kvitlech and not gamble away his mortgage money.
The "FORMER" smoker CAN occasionally have a cigarette and not go back to smoking.
True, some of the above are more difficult to stop after a "slip" ... but that is NOT due to any silly "DISEASE" ... and not even due to the substance itself, but due to the false "common knowledge" that one drop puts you back in it.
If we want REAL progress in stopping addictions, we need to bread the disease model, and face the reality that addictive behavior is a behavior.
The mild physical cravings upon withdrawal are 10% chemical from the substance, and 90% from the belief that one can't do it.
A person IS capable of stopping:
Drinking - Drugging - Smoking - Overeating - Compulsive Behaviors of "other" kinds - Gambling
”
WOW!
I wrote nearly the exact same thing a few years ago, and presented this at an APA forum.
I obviously agree 100%
Unfortunately, the 12-Step programs, which are helpful in getting people clean and sober to begin with, have such a large support base, that it has almost turned into a religion of its own. It is hard to disagree with the Big Book of AA without being attacked. To disagree with the 12-steps of AA is almost like arguing with the 10 Commandments.
But you ARE 100% right. The "Disease Model" is dead wrong.
The concept of never being fully "Recovered" is a complete lie.
People CAN change their behavior permanently and not be pulled back.
All addictions are only behaviors.
I have worked with many former alcoholics and addicts.
I tell them they WILL recover completely by changing their behavior.
I tell them that "advanced recovery" means understanding that YOU are the one who was abusing the substance. The substance was not abusing you.
YOU have the ability to put it down and not abuse it again.
I tell them NOT to believe that crap about one "slip" pulling you back into former behavior.
It is just like other behaviors. Let's say you have a nasty behavior like picking your nose in public. Nobody pointed it out to you as a kid, and now you are a grown man who picks his nose in front of others. You do this all the time.
Are you a "Nose Picking Addict" with a disease?
If you stop for 2 years, then do it once does it mean you will revert to picking your nose in public again?
Of course not.
All addictions are the same story
Knowing this can and does make changing those types of behaviors, shooting drugs, nose picking, drinking, overeating, smoking, gambling, easier to quit.
Believing that one mistake will "undo" your recovery is a LIE which makes many people too scared to try.
83
Jun 25, 2009 at 12:13 PM BIG JOKE Says:
GOTTTA LOVE IT !!! people bash, criticize, question the gedolim ALL DAY LONG, then come runnig to them to blame them for their own pitfalls "i'm killing myself smoking cause you didn't assur me" HAHA!!
A plea from a deperate women is ONE thing, but the rest of this is PURE bs.
1)take responsibility for your own actions,dont blame gedolim who you dont listen to anywa.
2)case in point almost every gadol today either assurs smoking, or strongly opposes it, many hold not to smoke on yom tov-noone gives a damn. so it dont matter what they say they'll get blamed by ignorant people anyway.
3)people here have accussed gedolim of not assuring because they themselves or "their people"smoke. JOKE, JOKE!!! as people have pointed out gedolim DO assur. and MOST of them DONT smoke, therehave been many gedolim even years ago who immediately stopped when they discovered that it was unhealthy.
84
Jun 25, 2009 at 11:59 AM Anonymous Says:
“ A sad story but there are plenty of activities that one can engage in that are harmful to ones health. I support education early on to dissuade our children from picking up the habit. However, to make it an "eveireh"? Legislating morality and behaviour never works and forcing a confirmed smoker to quit, not for themselves but because of another person, this will only result in that persons resentment to the other and sholem bayis will suffer as a result. Ive seen this too many times when a wife "forces" a husband to quit. It doesn't work and issues will arise. Careful what you ask for. ”
right on. what about the guy who died of a heart attack, who was overweight and used to eat alot of fatty foods, should they 'assur' him from eating stake????
certainly smoking is really bad, there are laws regulating it-many rabbonim DO assur it. ultimately a person is responsible for himself
85
Jun 25, 2009 at 12:51 PM Anonymous Says:
If one person stops smoking from this she has accomplished a major fear of saving a nishama!
A refuah shelema for the patient.
86
Jun 25, 2009 at 01:36 PM Benzion Twerski Says:
“ You are right. ANY addiction can kill, including addiction to 12-Step programs.
The problem with ALL 12-Step Programs is that they indoctrinate every newcomer with the LIE that he has a "disease" which is never cured, and he will never "recover"... but that he is "RECOVERING" every day for the rest of his life.
That is a bold-faced LIE.
Addicts and alcoholics can and do "Recover" completely and can lead totally normal lives.
The LIE of this permanent disease, only treatable but never curable was invented by Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob, the founders of AA back, many years ago, in working with rock-bottom alcoholics. They believed they needed to break "will" of the drunk down to the point where he is desperate to accept G-d, then tell him that he can not recover without G-d, etc., Their good intentions, and some of their correct ideas, eventually resulted in the Big Book, the bible of AA, which, written by other "recovering" drunks, taught that LIE of this permanent disease, only treatable but never curable.
While it is true that we need Hashem, we need Him in our lives for everything, including any recovery, etc.,
The idea that one can never taste the "forbidden substance" again is the lie.
The second big LIE they preach, is that ONE DROP of the "forbidden substance" will trigger the addiction to come back full force.
This can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. The former addicts/alcoholic is passed a drink at a chasuna after not drinking for 5 years. He drinks it without thinking.
If he had never been to AA, he is completely able to not have another drink. But, the AA former drinker, who believes he can never be cured, and that one drink will put him right back in the gutter, is convinced that he will now be a drunk again.
He then goes out and fulfills that.
So, though 12-Step programs do have the best recovery rates, people need to be taught that:
1. Addiction to a substance is a BEHAVIOR not a disease.
2. You can stop drinking/drugging/overeating, etc., permanently
3. When you stop that behavior, you are no longer an addict/alcoholic, you are a FORMER alcoholic/addict/overeater, etc.
4.. The "FORMER" alcoholic may have an occassional drink and not fall back to his old ways.
The "FORMER" overeater may have an occassional ice cream without binging out and gaining all his/her weight back
The "FORMER" gambler may occassionaly play kvitlech and not gamble away his mortgage money.
The "FORMER" smoker CAN occasionally have a cigarette and not go back to smoking.
True, some of the above are more difficult to stop after a "slip" ... but that is NOT due to any silly "DISEASE" ... and not even due to the substance itself, but due to the false "common knowledge" that one drop puts you back in it.
If we want REAL progress in stopping addictions, we need to bread the disease model, and face the reality that addictive behavior is a behavior.
The mild physical cravings upon withdrawal are 10% chemical from the substance, and 90% from the belief that one can't do it.
A person IS capable of stopping:
Drinking - Drugging - Smoking - Overeating - Compulsive Behaviors of "other" kinds - Gambling
”
This diatribe is almost verbatim from resources such as Stanton Peele's books and from the movement called "Moderation Management". While Dr. Peele is undeniably a brilliant clinician and scientist, and the founder of MM is likewise among the elder statesmen of the field, both have not been able to prove their positions in research. The facts are that the disease and 12 step models have a track record of successes. In virtually all cases, those that slip and fall off the wagon, the individual did not comply with the suggestions and guidance given by professionals and/or veterans in recovery. There is a point that there is sometimes a cult-like twinge to 12 step programs. There are also some people that succeed in stopping altogether without any outside help, neither treatment nor support groups. these are the exception. The real question is what methods work the best for most people. There is nearly no intervention, besides surgical procedures, where poor compliance renders treatment ineffective. Even a prescription from a physician requires filling it and taking it as prescribed.
Basically, you're right. A person is capable of stopping all of these behaviors. The trouble is that they generally don't without outside support. As for withdrawal cravings, there is a component that is psychological. For the most part, withdrawal is a medical condition, and is chemically caused. The craving is the recognition that these symptoms have been relieved in the past by repeated indulging in the addictive behavior. Not only that, but there is bonafide withdrawal symptoms with non-substance addictions, and this is well documented. There is a conditioning and habituation of a chemical nature that occurs in the brain, and this is the source of the withdrawal. This is also well documented in the research.
I recognize the anti-12 step rhetoric well. Occasionally, there is a point well made that deserves to be recognized and understood by us 12 steppers. Much of it is much ado about nothing. I have witnessed many people try to fly solo - go it alone - only to fall flat on their faces. While I am among those that recommend 12 step programs, I do not always push them from the beginning of recovery. Rather I consider therapy/counseling having a mission to help the client benefit from these resources that are useful, always available, and free.
87
Jun 25, 2009 at 06:13 PM shmil Says:
can ahyone mention a few of these 'gedolim' your refferig to so i can contact them. or are these just phamtom beings , imaginary humans so you can play the blame game?