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Jerusalem - Rabbi Amar Bars Rabbinic Judge From Conversion Cases |
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Rabbi Amar
"Recently, conversion cases have become the focus of public scrutiny," wrote Amar in a letter to Rabbi Eliyahu Ben-Dahan, administrative head of the Rabbinical Courts. "Groups have taken advantage of the controversy surrounding these cases to attempt to limit the jurisdiction of the Rabbinical Courts. As a result, I am exercising my power... to personally choose panels of judges that will rule on conversion cases."
Amar's directive would allow him to remove from a conversion case any judge - but it is seen as being directed, in particular, at Rabbi Avraham Sherman, a judge on the High Rabbinical Court who one week ago issued his second highly controversial halachic opinion on a divorce case involving a woman who converted to Judaism.
As in his previous ruling of more than a year ago, Sherman questioned not only the validity of the woman in the divorce case but also all contemporary Orthodox conversions - especially those performed by the National Conversion Authority, which is under Amar's supervision - and called to protect the purity of the Jewish people from "invasion" by gentiles undergoing "bogus" conversion ceremonies. In addition, Sherman declared that only the haredi rabbinical establishment was qualified to adjudicate on conversion matters; Sherman did not mention Amar as part of this "legitimate" rabbinical establishment.
In the wake of the publication of Sherman's opinion, Amar came under pressure to clarify his stand, said a senior source in the Rabbinical Court Administration.
"Rabbi Amar could not simply remain quiet any longer," said the source. "Sherman's opinion basically undermined Rabbi Amar's authority. He had to do something."
Amar's spokesman denied that the new directive was aimed against Sherman.
"Nowhere in the letter is Sherman mentioned," said the spokesman.
Amar's attempt, through his spokesman, to play down the sidelining of Sherman is in accordance with the non-confrontational style that has characterized his leadership style since he took office as chief rabbi more than five years ago.
However, a representative of the haredi rabbinical establishment rejected Amar's spokesman's attempts to sidestep a direct confrontation and vowed that Amar would be "punished" for coming out against Sherman.
Rabbi Nahum Eisenstein, who is closely aligned with Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, considered the preeminent halachic authority of Ashkenazi haredi Jewry, said in response: "If reports regarding Amar's letter are true, our rabbis will come out with a very serious reaction. Rabbi Amar has crossed a red line and he is directly undermining the halachic validity of conversions in Israel."
Meanwhile, in a meeting with Absorption Minister Sofa Landver on Wednesday, Amar reiterated his commitment to recognize all conversions performed by the Conversion Authority, according to Landver's spokesman.
Landver voiced her concern that Sherman's attack on the Conversion Authority would discourage potential converts from converting.
"No one will be willing to go through the trouble of converting if there is a real fear that, sometime down the road, the conversion will simply be annulled," she said.
According to data presented to Amar by Landver, there are 320,000 immigrants from the former Soviet Union who received automatic citizenship under the Law of Return but who are not Jewish according to halachic criteria - 80,000 of whom are under the age of 18.
The National Conversion Authority was set up to streamline the conversion process in the hope of converting these non-Jewish Israelis. Both secular and Orthodox Israelis see these non-Jews, who are fully integrated into Israeli society, as a potential threat to the cohesion of Israeli society because they challenge the congruity between Israeli and Jewish identities.
Also, because these non-Jews have no other religious definition, they cannot marry in Israel and must travel abroad. Only members of a recognized religion - Christianity, Islam or Judaism - can marry in Israel.
The haredi community's stringent approach to conversions is seen by secular and modern Orthodox Israelis as counterproductive since it blocks potential converts from becoming Jews - thus increasing pressure to provide civil marriages. It also increases the chances of intermarriage.
Meanwhile, haredim argue that relaxing conversion criteria empties the conversion act of any meaning and, therefore, does not solve the problem of intermarriage.
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Total52
Read Comments (52) — Post Yours »
1
Jun 25, 2009 at 07:09 PM Dag Says:
Modern Orthodox Jews aren’t advocating for a lack of standards or easy conversions. They are pointing out that the Charedi stance, in essence, delegitimizes ALL Gerim and has the potential to destroy the very fabric of Judaism
2
Jun 25, 2009 at 07:33 PM Anonymous Says:
These low level Chareidi rabbonim seem to have taken leave of their senses. Whether the issue is shabbos observance in Y'lm or the legitimacy of gerim converted by other (non-chareidi orthodox rabbonim) they only seek to force confrontation and dissent among klal yisroel. Unless Rav Elyashiv shows somes sense of leadership, they will have marginalized themselves from the rest of the citizens of EY and become even less relevant over the long term. Its hard to understand why he has not gotten Sherman and the other under control
3
Jun 25, 2009 at 08:22 PM ezkay Says:
rav elyashiv considers avi weiss a reform rabbi
4
Jun 25, 2009 at 08:22 PM ezkay Says:
Shmuely Boteach Misrepresents Orthodox Judaism
5
Jun 25, 2009 at 08:07 PM Anonymous Says:
“ These low level Chareidi rabbonim seem to have taken leave of their senses. Whether the issue is shabbos observance in Y'lm or the legitimacy of gerim converted by other (non-chareidi orthodox rabbonim) they only seek to force confrontation and dissent among klal yisroel. Unless Rav Elyashiv shows somes sense of leadership, they will have marginalized themselves from the rest of the citizens of EY and become even less relevant over the long term. Its hard to understand why he has not gotten Sherman and the other under control
”
Because we have a Torah, and the Torah decides what is a conversion.
To #1, this has nothing to do with Chareidy & Modern Othordox, it's a clear Torah ruling that is accepted by all, that there has to be Kabolas Mizvos by a conversion.
The ones who have roblems with this are the zionists, and they try to force their Rabbi's to erform illigit conversions. This already started in the days of Rabbi Goren, when ALL Orthodox Rabbis came out against it.
6
Jun 25, 2009 at 09:04 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Because we have a Torah, and the Torah decides what is a conversion.
To #1, this has nothing to do with Chareidy & Modern Othordox, it's a clear Torah ruling that is accepted by all, that there has to be Kabolas Mizvos by a conversion.
The ones who have roblems with this are the zionists, and they try to force their Rabbi's to erform illigit conversions. This already started in the days of Rabbi Goren, when ALL Orthodox Rabbis came out against it. ”
An orthodox rav should not challenge the judgement and decision of another rav and doing so publicly the way these chareidi rabbonim have done is a real chilul hashem and reflects shamefully on them. Rabbi Eilyahav should discipline them to assure they never again create such internal conflicts within the orthodox community.
7
Jun 25, 2009 at 09:31 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Shmuely Boteach Misrepresents Orthodox Judaism ”
where does he fit in?
8
Jun 25, 2009 at 09:29 PM Anonymous Says:
“ rav elyashiv considers avi weiss a reform rabbi ”
do you have a citation for that quote
9
Jun 25, 2009 at 10:23 PM Anonymous Says:
“ An orthodox rav should not challenge the judgement and decision of another rav and doing so publicly the way these chareidi rabbonim have done is a real chilul hashem and reflects shamefully on them. Rabbi Eilyahav should discipline them to assure they never again create such internal conflicts within the orthodox community. ”
Study your Jewish history! Even the greatest Rabbis had it out publicly. And especialy when the future of the jewish lineage is at stake. When Goren started this, the pulic lashing by the greatest Rabbi's was fierce.
10
Jun 25, 2009 at 10:44 PM Charlie Hall Says:
“ do you have a citation for that quote ”
I have personally heard Rabbi Weiss defend before sceptical audiences the concept of Torah Mi Sinai, the authority of rabbis to interpret the Torah, the non-egalitarian nature of Judaism, and the importance of full observance of all mitzvot. No Reform rabbi would argue for any of these. Furthermore, Rabbi Weiss has personally brought hundreds of families to Torah observance, playing a major role in the depopulation of the Reform synagogue in his neighborhood! I am sure that if Rav Elyashiv, if he were informed of these facts, would not think that Rabbi Weiss is a Reform rabbi, notwithstanding the many differences that he would have with Rabbi Weiss on other matters such as support for Religious Zionism.
11
Jun 26, 2009 at 06:35 AM Anonymous Says:
“ do you have a citation for that quote ”
Maybe Nachun Eisenstein said so. And since to a great extent he and a couple of others control who speaks to rav elyoshiv, shlit"a, and what rav elyoshiv shlit"a reads and hears it doesn't really matter if one of them said it on their own or manipulated rav elyoshiv shlit"a into actually saying it.
There were those who did the same thing to Rav Shach ZTZ"L and to other gedolai yisroel too.
12
Jun 26, 2009 at 06:00 AM Anonymous Says:
“ I have personally heard Rabbi Weiss defend before sceptical audiences the concept of Torah Mi Sinai, the authority of rabbis to interpret the Torah, the non-egalitarian nature of Judaism, and the importance of full observance of all mitzvot. No Reform rabbi would argue for any of these. Furthermore, Rabbi Weiss has personally brought hundreds of families to Torah observance, playing a major role in the depopulation of the Reform synagogue in his neighborhood! I am sure that if Rav Elyashiv, if he were informed of these facts, would not think that Rabbi Weiss is a Reform rabbi, notwithstanding the many differences that he would have with Rabbi Weiss on other matters such as support for Religious Zionism.
”
Take one look at his YCT website and try to deny that he has strayed very far from Orthodoxy.
13
Jun 26, 2009 at 04:21 AM Shlomo Zalman Says:
“ rav elyashiv considers avi weiss a reform rabbi ”
Rav Elyashiv has no clue who Rabbi Weiss is. He also had no clue what Rabbi Kaminetsky wrote in The Making of a Godol, and unfortunately erred terribly when he enforced a cherem on that book. When he comes out with an announcement, I view it with extreme skepticism. He is a tool in the hands of his operators.
It's also amusing how Rav Elyashiv's remarks are censored by his own constituency. When he said that human hair sheitels were ervah, it took no time before this statement was stricken from the record. His litvishe chareidim have their own "pick and choose" brand of Judaism, and on the sheitel issue, they chose to ignore him.
14
Jun 26, 2009 at 04:13 AM Shlomo Zalman Says:
Rabbi Sherman is a tremendous talmid chochom and posek, but has no emotional intelligence, derech eretz or respect for others. He needs to sit in the beis medrash, learn torah, and be kept out of any situation where sensitive issues are involved.
15
Jun 26, 2009 at 01:27 AM Avi Says:
As with many issues, the solution to this problem isn't exactly very complex. If you take out all the labels (Religious-zionist, haredi, "modern," etc.,) and ask a few salient questions regarding each conversion, you will know whether or not the geruit was "valid." A potential convert must have a competent sponsor during the entire process ... one that will be able to ascertain the individual's true intentions (is he or she expressing the desire to convert for the purposes of marrige, for example ... or for the intellecual and spiritual conection to Torah, the knowledge that Torah is emet, and the internalization of what it would mean to be a Jew ... along with all of the ramifications therein). If the sponsor to the ger considers him to be a sincere candidate, he takes him through the process of learning.The ger must eventually appear before a beit din, state his intentions, accept ALL of the mizvot , and answer all of the questions put to him. If the members of the beit din (all of which must be Torah observant, and known to be so by the community) agree to the non Jew is sincere, etc., the non Jew must have a brit and then immerse in the mikveh. At this point, if all of those conditions were met, the ger is now a full fledged Jew. After the mikveh, that "Jewish-ness" cannot be retroactively taken away ... the Rambam is quite clear on this entire issue.
The only problem could be with the beit din which performs the conversion. I am quite confident that Rav Amar would not be in favor of allowing the types of "quickie" conversions of Russians that eveyone seems to focus on. As with everthing these days ... it really seems like politics, again. I for one, am sick of the insinuation by the haredim that only those with black hats are capable of being Torah observant. Likewise, I am sick of those who would seek to water-down and corrupt the meaning (ie., "modernize") of the mizvot. Jews! It is high-time we stop the labels and internal dissention. Until we stop judging others by the kippah that they wear, we are going to have major problems. Until we stop trying to determine one's level of Torah observance based on external displays of religiosity, we are going to have major problems. This Shabbat we will hear Parashat Korach ... listen.
16
Jun 26, 2009 at 08:08 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Rabbi Sherman is a tremendous talmid chochom and posek, but has no emotional intelligence, derech eretz or respect for others. He needs to sit in the beis medrash, learn torah, and be kept out of any situation where sensitive issues are involved. ”
So you do not think that halacha is objective. If that is the case you are surely oiver issurim all the time.
17
Jun 26, 2009 at 07:51 AM Anonymous Says:
“ As with many issues, the solution to this problem isn't exactly very complex. If you take out all the labels (Religious-zionist, haredi, "modern," etc.,) and ask a few salient questions regarding each conversion, you will know whether or not the geruit was "valid." A potential convert must have a competent sponsor during the entire process ... one that will be able to ascertain the individual's true intentions (is he or she expressing the desire to convert for the purposes of marrige, for example ... or for the intellecual and spiritual conection to Torah, the knowledge that Torah is emet, and the internalization of what it would mean to be a Jew ... along with all of the ramifications therein). If the sponsor to the ger considers him to be a sincere candidate, he takes him through the process of learning.The ger must eventually appear before a beit din, state his intentions, accept ALL of the mizvot , and answer all of the questions put to him. If the members of the beit din (all of which must be Torah observant, and known to be so by the community) agree to the non Jew is sincere, etc., the non Jew must have a brit and then immerse in the mikveh. At this point, if all of those conditions were met, the ger is now a full fledged Jew. After the mikveh, that "Jewish-ness" cannot be retroactively taken away ... the Rambam is quite clear on this entire issue.
The only problem could be with the beit din which performs the conversion. I am quite confident that Rav Amar would not be in favor of allowing the types of "quickie" conversions of Russians that eveyone seems to focus on. As with everthing these days ... it really seems like politics, again. I for one, am sick of the insinuation by the haredim that only those with black hats are capable of being Torah observant. Likewise, I am sick of those who would seek to water-down and corrupt the meaning (ie., "modernize") of the mizvot. Jews! It is high-time we stop the labels and internal dissention. Until we stop judging others by the kippah that they wear, we are going to have major problems. Until we stop trying to determine one's level of Torah observance based on external displays of religiosity, we are going to have major problems. This Shabbat we will hear Parashat Korach ... listen. ”
I think it would raise the level of conversation if posters like this who are obviously familiar with the many details of hilchos geirus would cite sources for the halachos they quote.
In the first paragraph alone, the poster mentions a dozen points of halachah needed for a person to complete the process of transforming him/herself from Gentile to Jew.
I'm not asking for the entire hilchos geirus from anyone, just the source of each halachic point mentioned.
This should make for a much more enlightened and enlightening conversation.
18
Jun 26, 2009 at 07:42 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Take one look at his YCT website and try to deny that he has strayed very far from Orthodoxy. ”
OK, since you have obviously checked it out, you tell us what is wrong with it.
And please stick to specifics and what it is that is against halachah, not some rant about the gedolim and da'as torah.
19
Jun 26, 2009 at 07:36 AM tzoorba Says:
“ Rabbi Sherman is a tremendous talmid chochom and posek, but has no emotional intelligence, derech eretz or respect for others. He needs to sit in the beis medrash, learn torah, and be kept out of any situation where sensitive issues are involved. ”
This post and your other one indicate your anti Torah leader invalid gut feeling approach to Judaism.
Your mindless slander has no basis. Torah is based on wisdom and logic and not on misguided bleeding heart emotional feelings. These feelings have led you to disparage great men to advance your own warped agenda.
Conversion is based on kabolas mitzvos. Where people obviously have no intent to keep mitzvos like by not keeping taharas hamishpacha, it is clear that the acceptance of mitzvos was false. Where it is obvious that this was the intent of the convert, the "Rabbi" who performed the conversion is obviously a useless charlatan.
Rabbi Amar's approach will just split the Jewish people further because the honest Orthodox population will not accept any questionable conversions by fiat of any government agency.
The smartest thing sincere converts should do is to use universally recognized conversion court where no question of their geirus will ever arise. Courts sanctioned by Rav Eliyashiv and by Aguda in America can be trusted.
20
Jun 26, 2009 at 08:18 AM Anonymous Says:
“ This post and your other one indicate your anti Torah leader invalid gut feeling approach to Judaism.
Your mindless slander has no basis. Torah is based on wisdom and logic and not on misguided bleeding heart emotional feelings. These feelings have led you to disparage great men to advance your own warped agenda.
Conversion is based on kabolas mitzvos. Where people obviously have no intent to keep mitzvos like by not keeping taharas hamishpacha, it is clear that the acceptance of mitzvos was false. Where it is obvious that this was the intent of the convert, the "Rabbi" who performed the conversion is obviously a useless charlatan.
Rabbi Amar's approach will just split the Jewish people further because the honest Orthodox population will not accept any questionable conversions by fiat of any government agency.
The smartest thing sincere converts should do is to use universally recognized conversion court where no question of their geirus will ever arise. Courts sanctioned by Rav Eliyashiv and by Aguda in America can be trusted. ”
Until the EY Charaidim treif up the Agudah here in America.
Newsflash to you 'charaidim' here in the States: The charaidm in EY don't consider 90% charaidim at all! You are next on their list of not-charaidi-enough.
21
Jun 26, 2009 at 08:50 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Rabbi Sherman is a tremendous talmid chochom and posek, but has no emotional intelligence, derech eretz or respect for others. He needs to sit in the beis medrash, learn torah, and be kept out of any situation where sensitive issues are involved. ”
I disagree - if he has no respect for others, separating himself from the world is the last thing he should do. He needs to get out and interact with people. He apparently has forgotten "lo bashamayim hi"...
22
Jun 26, 2009 at 09:14 AM HAGTBG Says:
“ This post and your other one indicate your anti Torah leader invalid gut feeling approach to Judaism.
Your mindless slander has no basis. Torah is based on wisdom and logic and not on misguided bleeding heart emotional feelings. These feelings have led you to disparage great men to advance your own warped agenda.
Conversion is based on kabolas mitzvos. Where people obviously have no intent to keep mitzvos like by not keeping taharas hamishpacha, it is clear that the acceptance of mitzvos was false. Where it is obvious that this was the intent of the convert, the "Rabbi" who performed the conversion is obviously a useless charlatan.
Rabbi Amar's approach will just split the Jewish people further because the honest Orthodox population will not accept any questionable conversions by fiat of any government agency.
The smartest thing sincere converts should do is to use universally recognized conversion court where no question of their geirus will ever arise. Courts sanctioned by Rav Eliyashiv and by Aguda in America can be trusted. ”
Thank you. Very few haredi with your point of view -that all Modern Orthodox rabbis (regardless of how great) - should not be allowed to perform conversions- are willing to publicly say that.
However, I will say its odd that you criticize R' Amar, who is a talmid chacham, for exercising his legal authority i.e. "fiat of a government agency" when R' Sherman's action only has validity and is only worthy of attention because it was the "fiat of a government agency." Consistency please. Please note that everyone who is not haredi would be very happy for the haredi to make whatever psak they desire so long as they stay far away from "fiat of a government agency."
23
Jun 26, 2009 at 09:11 AM Anonymous Says:
“ OK, since you have obviously checked it out, you tell us what is wrong with it.
And please stick to specifics and what it is that is against halachah, not some rant about the gedolim and da'as torah. ”
I have no interest in spoon feeding obvious information to a a disingenious person such as yourself, it would be pointless and over your head.
24
Jun 26, 2009 at 09:24 AM Anonymous Says:
“ I have no interest in spoon feeding obvious information to a a disingenious person such as yourself, it would be pointless and over your head. ”
Is that the latest yeshivisheh way of saying 'I don't know'?
25
Jun 26, 2009 at 09:40 AM Anonymous Says:
One of the root causes of the problem-and not being addressed- is non-observant Jewish men wanting to marry a pretty shiksa and then wanting her converted (in a quickie and in a non inconvenient way). Often these men are wealthy and so well connected that they can be heirs of cosmetic companies or highly placed White House appointees. We all know that marriage conversions often last as long as the marriage and when rabbis conduct these, they know beforehand that the converts sincerity is suspect-especially when the spouse is nonobservant.
What I consider a greater tragedy is the sincere convert who gets besmirched because of the many insincere.
26
Jun 26, 2009 at 10:56 AM Shlomo Zalman Says:
“ So you do not think that halacha is objective. If that is the case you are surely oiver issurim all the time. ”
Halacha is actually very subjective. Any honest posek will admit that they make the gut decision first and then find proofs later. The Chasam Sofer admitted it outright. Furthermore, an educated person can reliably predict what a given posek will say on most matters , because poskim pasken according to their personal biases and not necessarily according to the sources. This is actually a good thing most of the time, it shows that halacha is not static, it changes with the times. As a matter of fact, no one changed observant Judaism more to reflect the times than the above mentioned godol who said "Chadash Assur Min Hatorah". He was the biggest mechadesh of them all.
27
Jun 26, 2009 at 10:59 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Is that the latest yeshivisheh way of saying 'I don't know'? ”
Glad to know that you consider using vocabulary words you do not understand to be "yeshivish". But to answer you no, it means exactly what it says and nothing else.
28
Jun 26, 2009 at 10:58 AM Shlomo Zalman Says:
“ I disagree - if he has no respect for others, separating himself from the world is the last thing he should do. He needs to get out and interact with people. He apparently has forgotten "lo bashamayim hi"... ”
good point.
29
Jun 26, 2009 at 11:52 AM tzoorba Says:
“ Halacha is actually very subjective. Any honest posek will admit that they make the gut decision first and then find proofs later. The Chasam Sofer admitted it outright. Furthermore, an educated person can reliably predict what a given posek will say on most matters , because poskim pasken according to their personal biases and not necessarily according to the sources. This is actually a good thing most of the time, it shows that halacha is not static, it changes with the times. As a matter of fact, no one changed observant Judaism more to reflect the times than the above mentioned godol who said "Chadash Assur Min Hatorah". He was the biggest mechadesh of them all. ”
What planet did you learn this approach to halacha on? Just go with your gut like Sonya Sotomayor who believes that all Spanish women are intuitively right.
So, according to you, any day's psak depends on what the posek had for lunch. Don't waste any time learning shulchan aruch, just pamper your gut.
Changing with the new nonsense of each generation is the worst possible approach.
What new innovations did the Chasam Sofer introduce?
Where did you get this approach from? It certainly isn't from any valid Torah source.
30
Jun 26, 2009 at 01:49 PM Anonymous Says:
“ OK, since you have obviously checked it out, you tell us what is wrong with it.
And please stick to specifics and what it is that is against halachah, not some rant about the gedolim and da'as torah. ”
I have no interest in spoon feeding obvious information to a a disingenious person such as yourself, it would be pointless and over your head.
31
Jun 26, 2009 at 01:37 PM Anonymous Says:
“ rav elyashiv considers avi weiss a reform rabbi ”
Cause he is or at least conservative now that he has ordained women "rabbis" or "maharat" in his words.
32
Jun 26, 2009 at 01:14 PM Milhouse Says:
“ As with many issues, the solution to this problem isn't exactly very complex. If you take out all the labels (Religious-zionist, haredi, "modern," etc.,) and ask a few salient questions regarding each conversion, you will know whether or not the geruit was "valid." A potential convert must have a competent sponsor during the entire process ... one that will be able to ascertain the individual's true intentions (is he or she expressing the desire to convert for the purposes of marrige, for example ... or for the intellecual and spiritual conection to Torah, the knowledge that Torah is emet, and the internalization of what it would mean to be a Jew ... along with all of the ramifications therein). If the sponsor to the ger considers him to be a sincere candidate, he takes him through the process of learning.The ger must eventually appear before a beit din, state his intentions, accept ALL of the mizvot , and answer all of the questions put to him. If the members of the beit din (all of which must be Torah observant, and known to be so by the community) agree to the non Jew is sincere, etc., the non Jew must have a brit and then immerse in the mikveh. At this point, if all of those conditions were met, the ger is now a full fledged Jew. After the mikveh, that "Jewish-ness" cannot be retroactively taken away ... the Rambam is quite clear on this entire issue.
The only problem could be with the beit din which performs the conversion. I am quite confident that Rav Amar would not be in favor of allowing the types of "quickie" conversions of Russians that eveyone seems to focus on. As with everthing these days ... it really seems like politics, again. I for one, am sick of the insinuation by the haredim that only those with black hats are capable of being Torah observant. Likewise, I am sick of those who would seek to water-down and corrupt the meaning (ie., "modernize") of the mizvot. Jews! It is high-time we stop the labels and internal dissention. Until we stop judging others by the kippah that they wear, we are going to have major problems. Until we stop trying to determine one's level of Torah observance based on external displays of religiosity, we are going to have major problems. This Shabbat we will hear Parashat Korach ... listen. ”
Where is this requirement for a sponsor to be found? Not in gemoro, not in Rambam, not in Shulchon Oruch, so where? Why can't the beis din make up its own mind whether the candidate is sincere? And who gave the right to any other beis din to second-guess its decision?
33
Jun 26, 2009 at 01:11 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Take one look at his YCT website and try to deny that he has strayed very far from Orthodoxy. ”
Really? In what way? I don't like his left-wing politics, but I can't find a se'if in Shulchon Oruch that bans them, or anything else he does or says. But what has he got to do with this article anyway? This is about R Amar taking control of the botei din that are supposed to be under his control, and dealing with insubordinate chutzpenyaks who are mevazeh talmidei chachomim and over on "lo sonu oso".
34
Jun 26, 2009 at 05:17 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Cause he is or at least conservative now that he has ordained women "rabbis" or "maharat" in his words. ”
Really? What makes that non-orthodox? A woman who knows halacha has the right to pasken; so where is it written that she can't have a certificate attesting to her knowledge?
35
Jun 26, 2009 at 03:21 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Halacha is actually very subjective. Any honest posek will admit that they make the gut decision first and then find proofs later. The Chasam Sofer admitted it outright. Furthermore, an educated person can reliably predict what a given posek will say on most matters , because poskim pasken according to their personal biases and not necessarily according to the sources. This is actually a good thing most of the time, it shows that halacha is not static, it changes with the times. As a matter of fact, no one changed observant Judaism more to reflect the times than the above mentioned godol who said "Chadash Assur Min Hatorah". He was the biggest mechadesh of them all. ”
Oh so little do you know of psak.
The halacha is subjective and a posek does not change the halacha to fit a case or to make someone feel good. There of course will differences in how a halacha may be understood but a posek will be consistent in his method and apply the halach objectively. He will not pasken in a manner that is inconsistent with his understanding and shimush, because someone will be upset. Sure he can apply kulos to a situation but only if it is consistent with a derech.
You are attempting to skew the halachà so you can do what ever you want and say that you are still following halacha.
36
Jun 26, 2009 at 05:53 PM Anonymous Says:
I think that the point is being missed.
If these people are real gerim then the illegitimate children they parent, without halachik giten, (which they do regularly) are mamzarim. If they are not gerim, then the children are not mamzarim and the children can sincerely convert if they wish to. Nothing can be done about mamzarous.
Rabbi Rabbi Goren was the one who started this approach which is the best for the innocent children. For the same reason Rabbi Feinstein z"l de-legitimized Conservative marriages to save the children from mamzarous.
There is nothing wrong about being a goy who is a decent, honest person. A fake conversion does not enhance their status
37
Jun 27, 2009 at 04:43 PM shlomo zalman Says:
“ Oh so little do you know of psak.
The halacha is subjective and a posek does not change the halacha to fit a case or to make someone feel good. There of course will differences in how a halacha may be understood but a posek will be consistent in his method and apply the halach objectively. He will not pasken in a manner that is inconsistent with his understanding and shimush, because someone will be upset. Sure he can apply kulos to a situation but only if it is consistent with a derech.
You are attempting to skew the halachà so you can do what ever you want and say that you are still following halacha. ”
correct. The posek always feels he is paskening objectively. However, his understanding of the halacha, as you said, is subjective. Therefore, his psak , the halacha in his eyes, is subjective. The fact that he has a derech is a good thing, and derachim are all subjective. Witness the multitude of derachim in Judaism.
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Jun 27, 2009 at 04:38 PM shlomo zalman Says:
“ What planet did you learn this approach to halacha on? Just go with your gut like Sonya Sotomayor who believes that all Spanish women are intuitively right.
So, according to you, any day's psak depends on what the posek had for lunch. Don't waste any time learning shulchan aruch, just pamper your gut.
Changing with the new nonsense of each generation is the worst possible approach.
What new innovations did the Chasam Sofer introduce?
Where did you get this approach from? It certainly isn't from any valid Torah source. ”
A short list of halachic innovations inconsistent with the Torah:
pruzbul
no yibum
no polygamy
shabbos goy
heter iskah
mechiras chometz
Chassidus in its entirety
Please read Professor Yaakov Katz's books, in them one can find the Chasam Sofer's "upgrading issurim" policies. Other well researched books (Etkes, Samet and others) will give a good perspective of the new Orthodox Judaism that was developed in the first half of the nineteenth century. Very worthwhile, much more so than attacking others.
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Jun 27, 2009 at 03:44 PM moish Says:
“ Where is this requirement for a sponsor to be found? Not in gemoro, not in Rambam, not in Shulchon Oruch, so where? Why can't the beis din make up its own mind whether the candidate is sincere? And who gave the right to any other beis din to second-guess its decision? ”
Who says he second guessed, maybe he checked out the facts?
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Jun 28, 2009 at 12:30 AM tzoorba Says:
“ A short list of halachic innovations inconsistent with the Torah:
pruzbul
no yibum
no polygamy
shabbos goy
heter iskah
mechiras chometz
Chassidus in its entirety
Please read Professor Yaakov Katz's books, in them one can find the Chasam Sofer's "upgrading issurim" policies. Other well researched books (Etkes, Samet and others) will give a good perspective of the new Orthodox Judaism that was developed in the first half of the nineteenth century. Very worthwhile, much more so than attacking others.
”
None of the innovations that you mention have anything to do with the Chasam Sofer. They precede him by some time.
All of these "innovations" have a foundation in the Torah and are not capricious emotion based modifications of Torah law.
What are Yaakov Katz's credentials? Was he Orthodox or did he have an ax to grind?
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Jun 28, 2009 at 07:04 AM shlomo zalman Says:
“ None of the innovations that you mention have anything to do with the Chasam Sofer. They precede him by some time.
All of these "innovations" have a foundation in the Torah and are not capricious emotion based modifications of Torah law.
What are Yaakov Katz's credentials? Was he Orthodox or did he have an ax to grind? ”
It is unfortunate that you are unfamiliar with Professor Jacob Katz's z"l (1904-1998) work. You can find him on the internet. In short, he was an extraordinary learned Orthodox Jew. He grew up in Hungary and learned in Pressburg and later in Germany. He is regarded as the foremost Jewish historian of the generation, and was mentor to the current elite of the Jewish historians, including the renowned Professor Rav Chaim Soloveitchik, son of Rav Yoseph Ber Soloveitchik zt"l. All of his books are illuminating, but in particular his "The Shabbes Goy", which is readily available. It's quite a bit of reading, I apologize, but until you do some homework, there is no point in continuing our current debate. He wrote extensively on the Chasam Sofer and the development of contemporary Orthodoxy. See his list of publications and enjoy.
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Jun 28, 2009 at 06:56 AM Charlie Hall Says:
“ None of the innovations that you mention have anything to do with the Chasam Sofer. They precede him by some time.
All of these "innovations" have a foundation in the Torah and are not capricious emotion based modifications of Torah law.
What are Yaakov Katz's credentials? Was he Orthodox or did he have an ax to grind? ”
For other innovations, you can look at your siddur! The text of Tachanun, the text of Selichot, piyyutim, Simchat Torah, and Kabalat Shabat. I would not call any of these "inconsistent" with the Torah (chas v'shalom!) but they are clearly innovations, and not all were supported by the leading halachic authorities of the times.
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Jun 28, 2009 at 06:34 AM Charlie Hall Says:
“ None of the innovations that you mention have anything to do with the Chasam Sofer. They precede him by some time.
All of these "innovations" have a foundation in the Torah and are not capricious emotion based modifications of Torah law.
What are Yaakov Katz's credentials? Was he Orthodox or did he have an ax to grind? ”
Prof. Katz z'tz'l was the leading Orthodox Jewish historian of the 20th century, specializing in modern Jewish history. Prior to becoming a historian, he had studied at the Chasam Sofer's Pressburg yeshiva! Among his prominent students was Rabbi Dr. Haym Soloveitchik, the only son of Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik who is the leading Orthodox expert on the history of halachah.
While all the aforementioned innovations did indeed preceed the Chasam Sofer, they were indeed innovations, and some of them did involve acceptance of halachic opinions that had previously been rejected.
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Jun 28, 2009 at 05:24 AM Anonymous Says:
WHH
Jerusalem is entitled to some legitimate concerns over government decreed or just plain phony conversions. My husband calls the Heavenly City the world's largest emergency room, because of the foot traffic of a most amazing variety, really like no-where else anywhere. Some choose to stay, and discover their "Jewish roots" others move through, each with their theme and theory. We have the world's largest group of Messiahs, and there are whole wings of mental hospitals devoted to serving this particular mishugas. Jerusalem must, for the sake of survival, have the toughest and most comprehensive conversion laws of any Jewish community worldwide. No offense to the sincere and righteous among us. Knowing more than one or two, they would be the first ones to agree to tough and difficult conversions. Everyone who visits here wants some claim to the Yerushah, not only unfeasible, but downright dangerous.
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Jun 28, 2009 at 02:07 AM Anonymous Says:
“ A short list of halachic innovations inconsistent with the Torah:
pruzbul
no yibum
no polygamy
shabbos goy
heter iskah
mechiras chometz
Chassidus in its entirety
Please read Professor Yaakov Katz's books, in them one can find the Chasam Sofer's "upgrading issurim" policies. Other well researched books (Etkes, Samet and others) will give a good perspective of the new Orthodox Judaism that was developed in the first half of the nineteenth century. Very worthwhile, much more so than attacking others.
”
Could you provide a link to any of these books, or the names of these books, I am very interested in them but a google search did not turn up any info
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Jun 28, 2009 at 09:47 AM tzoorba Says:
“ For other innovations, you can look at your siddur! The text of Tachanun, the text of Selichot, piyyutim, Simchat Torah, and Kabalat Shabat. I would not call any of these "inconsistent" with the Torah (chas v'shalom!) but they are clearly innovations, and not all were supported by the leading halachic authorities of the times. ”
I don't know how we got onto the basic topic of innovations here. SZ made the outrageous claim that the Chasam Sofer contradicted himself in terms of chodosh osur min hatorah and I disputed this statement.
I never said that there weren't new gezeiros or different chidushim in psak.
My difference with SZ was his claim that poskim pasken by their feelings and then try to find reasons later. This is nonsense of the highest order.
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Jun 28, 2009 at 09:42 AM Anonymous Says:
what a shame that we have all these machlokhes
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Jun 28, 2009 at 09:38 AM tzoorba Says:
“ It is unfortunate that you are unfamiliar with Professor Jacob Katz's z"l (1904-1998) work. You can find him on the internet. In short, he was an extraordinary learned Orthodox Jew. He grew up in Hungary and learned in Pressburg and later in Germany. He is regarded as the foremost Jewish historian of the generation, and was mentor to the current elite of the Jewish historians, including the renowned Professor Rav Chaim Soloveitchik, son of Rav Yoseph Ber Soloveitchik zt"l. All of his books are illuminating, but in particular his "The Shabbes Goy", which is readily available. It's quite a bit of reading, I apologize, but until you do some homework, there is no point in continuing our current debate. He wrote extensively on the Chasam Sofer and the development of contemporary Orthodoxy. See his list of publications and enjoy. ”
I don't have to read this work to see that your approach to halacha and hashkafa are far off the mark.
You don't have to engage in discussions with me but I will continue to point out your fallacious and obviously non Torah learned approach to Halacha and hashkafa.
I have learned in major Yeshivos for over 40 years and I am not impressed by any Hebrew U professor's commentary that runs counter to common sense and basic principles of Halacha and psak that are familiar to anyone that has learned Torah with any depth.
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Jun 28, 2009 at 09:30 AM not one of the gedolim hador Says:
and we seriously expect moshiach to show up with this level of squabbling among our own...truly a shanda
50
Jun 28, 2009 at 08:28 AM Charlie Hall Says:
“ Could you provide a link to any of these books, or the names of these books, I am very interested in them but a google search did not turn up any info ”
http://www.jacobkatz.co.il/english/booksEng1.html
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Jun 28, 2009 at 10:21 AM shlomo zalman Says:
“ Could you provide a link to any of these books, or the names of these books, I am very interested in them but a google search did not turn up any info ”
Sure.
Unfortunately, many are out of print. I managed to borrow a copy of one that was selling for $420 at an online book store!
You can google Jacob Katz and see most of his books. They were written in Hebrew and you may be buying translations which are pretty good, but without the footnotes, some of which are fascinating and essential. So I recommend the original Hebrew.Some of the titles:
The Shabbes Goy
Exclusiveness and Tolerance
Tradition and Crisis
Out of the Ghetto ( a classic)
A House Divided (the split in Hungarian Jewry)
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Jun 28, 2009 at 09:46 PM Charlie Hall Says:
“ I don't have to read this work to see that your approach to halacha and hashkafa are far off the mark.
You don't have to engage in discussions with me but I will continue to point out your fallacious and obviously non Torah learned approach to Halacha and hashkafa.
I have learned in major Yeshivos for over 40 years and I am not impressed by any Hebrew U professor's commentary that runs counter to common sense and basic principles of Halacha and psak that are familiar to anyone that has learned Torah with any depth. ”
Prof. Katz is not "any Hebrew U professor". How can you criticize him when you have not read his works? They are contrary neither to common sense, nor any halachic principles. He just lays out the facts of how the halachah developed.