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Jerusalem - Riots Resume; PM Netanyahu Urged to Intervene in Shabbat Row, As Shas Rep Resigns |
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Police arrest charedi demonstrator in Jerusalem. Photo: Ariel Jerozolimski
The haredi riots in Jerusalem in protest of the municipality's decision to open a city parking lot on Shabbat resumed this afternoon, despite attempts to pacify the situation.
The Jerusalem Police was forced to close off the capital's Shivtei Israel and Yehezkel streets, after dozens of haredim set dumpsters on fire, in protest of the arrests made during Saturday's riots. Mass police presence was noted on the scene.
Following the heated weekend, both camps attempting to lower the flames of tension. Meretz deputy mayor says 'proud the seculars are starting to understand that we mustn't keep quiet'
MK Ophir Paz-Pines (Labor) urged Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu to intervene in what he called a "severe crisis" in the capital, a day after fierce haredi rioting over the Shabbat opening of the Carta parking lot.
Speaking to Israel Radio this morning, Paz-Pines said that Jerusalem Mayor Nir Barkat and the police were not getting the proper backing, adding that "Jerusalem must not be turned into Teheran."
Meanwhile, Jerusalem City Council representative Shmuel Yitzhaki of Shas resigned from the municipality coalition on Sunday afternoon, in protest over Mayor Nir Barkat's decision to open the Carta parking lot on Saturdays.
Yitzhaki explained that he decided to quit the coalition because Barkat's decision violated the status-quo in the capital.
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Read Comments (86) — Post Yours »
1
Jun 28, 2009 at 07:57 AM ZR Says:
And even if these protests are successful to close the car-park, yotso schoro b'hefseido - more has been lost than gained.
How many yidden are now pushed away from Yiddishkeit by this disgusting display of behaviour - dirty nappies etc.?
At the end of the day are more yidden keeping shabbos in EY after all this? Are more yidden exposed to the beauty of shabbos? To the beauty of Yiddishkeit? Or the exact opposite? More Yidden are repulsed by these actions. Where is the logic in all this?
2
Jun 28, 2009 at 08:25 AM jancsibacsi Says:
theese protesters are going by the motto might makes right we all know who did this before since they are so large in numbers in jerusalem they think that they will overpower others there by their sheere number they dont care about the laws they are a law unto themselfs they tottaly disrespect anyone whom they think doesnt abide by their law or what they say the law of the torah which is a cover for their wanting to dominate others just like the mullahs in iran
3
Jun 28, 2009 at 08:09 AM duddy Says:
“ And even if these protests are successful to close the car-park, yotso schoro b'hefseido - more has been lost than gained.
How many yidden are now pushed away from Yiddishkeit by this disgusting display of behaviour - dirty nappies etc.?
At the end of the day are more yidden keeping shabbos in EY after all this? Are more yidden exposed to the beauty of shabbos? To the beauty of Yiddishkeit? Or the exact opposite? More Yidden are repulsed by these actions. Where is the logic in all this?
”
this is one prospective, but the question is "what do we have to do according to Shilchon Urich"? Personal feelings of right and wrong is meaningless when it comes to religious issues with clear Halacha and rabinical guidance.
4
Jun 28, 2009 at 08:31 AM Anonymous Says:
If this is the only way things can be done- they still should not do it! Its acts of not only goyim but arabs! For the world to see on the news frum CHASIDISH boys being arrested for violence is a CHILUL SHEM SHAMYIM!
Who ever thinks that the robonim signed all those letters for hafgonot to turn out like this - U R MISTAKEN. Besides half the ppl protesting couldn't give a damn about the parking lot or chilul shabbos- they just want fun!
And these naïve boys going to prison is the worst thing. If u know what type of abuse they get in prison U WOULD FAINT! The big gangs beat and me'anas these young boys! Hashem help klal yisroel!
5
Jun 28, 2009 at 08:31 AM Anonymous Says:
“ And even if these protests are successful to close the car-park, yotso schoro b'hefseido - more has been lost than gained.
How many yidden are now pushed away from Yiddishkeit by this disgusting display of behaviour - dirty nappies etc.?
At the end of the day are more yidden keeping shabbos in EY after all this? Are more yidden exposed to the beauty of shabbos? To the beauty of Yiddishkeit? Or the exact opposite? More Yidden are repulsed by these actions. Where is the logic in all this?
”
you talk like a anti semi
6
Jun 28, 2009 at 08:30 AM Anonymous Says:
Can someone explain please. A few weeks ago PM Netanyahu said in a speech that since Jerusalem is the only Jewish capital in the world it cannot be divided. Now what makes Jerusalem Jewish? What makes Jerusalem holy? They think you're jewish by eating gefilta fish and latkes. No that dosnt make you jewish. And if they don't care about the Torah they have no claims on Jerusalem.
7
Jun 28, 2009 at 09:07 AM ZR Says:
“ this is one prospective, but the question is "what do we have to do according to Shilchon Urich"? Personal feelings of right and wrong is meaningless when it comes to religious issues with clear Halacha and rabinical guidance. ”
Where in "Shilchon Urich" does it say to throw dirty nappies at tinokei shenishbu? Is that the way a Yid behaves? Is it even going to accomplish anything?
If they want to bring Yidden closer to Yiddishket why don't they invite them for Shabbos meal? Show them the beauty of Shabbos. Show them the beauty of Yiddishkeit.
Do you know that Chabad has much hatzlocho in bringing Yidden back to Yiddishkeit through love, through kiruv? How many Yidden are keeping shabbos as a result of these protests? How many Yidden come closer to Yiddishkeit because of what they see what is reported on the news about these riots?
If you are really concerned about other Yidden's shmiras shabbos, why don't you invite a not-yet frum Yid over for shabbos and try to mekarev him? That’s if you are honest about caring about the holiness of shabbos and your concern whether another yid is keeping shabbos kahalacha.
8
Jun 28, 2009 at 08:59 AM Anonymous Says:
people don't understand (or maybe now they do)...if you put politics in front of kedushas yerushalayim like GER did, and instead of voiting for a religious mayor (under who's whatch the parking garage would have NEVER been opened) they voted for a CHILONY the worst of the charaidim comes out.
shame on you gur for doing this to Klal Yisroel and Yerushalayim!!!!
9
Jun 28, 2009 at 08:57 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Can someone explain please. A few weeks ago PM Netanyahu said in a speech that since Jerusalem is the only Jewish capital in the world it cannot be divided. Now what makes Jerusalem Jewish? What makes Jerusalem holy? They think you're jewish by eating gefilta fish and latkes. No that dosnt make you jewish. And if they don't care about the Torah they have no claims on Jerusalem. ”
What makes Jerusalem holy is the fact that this is the place where we once had a transcendent relationship with Hashem in the Bais Hamikdash. Unfortunately due to the kind of baseless hatred that we see in the streets of Jerusalem today, it was destroyed. A Jew is Jewish because he has a Jewish neshama, a spark of Hashem, and a connection to all the souls of the Jewish people. And if you can't see that, then I am very sad for you, and your community.
10
Jun 28, 2009 at 08:56 AM shmuel Says:
this is the biggest Chillul hashem and the results does so much more damage then good. anyone thinking with an open mind will see this as obvious.
nothing is stopping you from keeping Shulcha Aruch, start worrying more about yourself and about the whole country. and if you are that worried about the country, MY questinon to you is WHAT HAVE you done for it????
enough said.
11
Jun 28, 2009 at 08:54 AM Anonymous Says:
“ And even if these protests are successful to close the car-park, yotso schoro b'hefseido - more has been lost than gained.
How many yidden are now pushed away from Yiddishkeit by this disgusting display of behaviour - dirty nappies etc.?
At the end of the day are more yidden keeping shabbos in EY after all this? Are more yidden exposed to the beauty of shabbos? To the beauty of Yiddishkeit? Or the exact opposite? More Yidden are repulsed by these actions. Where is the logic in all this?
”
These people that want to become yiddish are going to be more yiddish as they see that ehrliche yiddishe people will do anything to sanctify the Shabbos and to keep Yerushaleim holy. Why can't all these so called tourists park outside of Yerusheliem and walk into the "Holy City" to see the beauty of it? Why do they Dafka have to be Mechalil Shabbos? How many of these people are Lo Eleini from Jewish ancestors? HUH WHY?
12
Jun 28, 2009 at 08:45 AM grosenberg Says:
The Gedolim of Eretz Yisroel are saying "mehn Shvagt nisht" and silly posters think they know more. They care more. They see more of the Toeles of keeping quiet. (a) you obviously never learned about the demonstrations and hard work that was done to keep Kedusha in E"Y in the times of Rav Diskin, Rav Salant, etc. and (b) you think you have more of a Chazon with your stupid logic than gedolim have with Ruach HaKodesh. When Sara told Avraham to expel Yishmael, why wasn't Avraham scared of "Chilul Hashem" of throwing out a sick son? Because Hashem said it was the right thing to do. There is no Chillul Hashem in listening to Hashem, even if the commentators here and the secularists say so. The proof, my father taught us, is that Hagar remarried Avraham and Yishmael did Teshuva before Avraham's death -- there were NO hard feelings in the end from doing the right thing. If the Gedolim say riot -- turn over every garbage can --- and trust me, those who demonstrate will end up closer to the secularists than you who try to pander to them.
13
Jun 28, 2009 at 09:57 AM Anonymous Says:
“ this is one prospective, but the question is "what do we have to do according to Shilchon Urich"? Personal feelings of right and wrong is meaningless when it comes to religious issues with clear Halacha and rabinical guidance. ”
Yes! But what's about the fifth Shilchon urich? A fight - in general - has to make sense. The obligation of protesting is till "they hit you"!!!
14
Jun 28, 2009 at 09:56 AM Anonymous Says:
thanks you GER..
do you noq see whay a churbin you have brought upon us? all these riots and machlokis whould have not happened under a "religious" mayor".
SHAME ON YOU GER.
the damage will be felt for generations.
15
Jun 28, 2009 at 09:50 AM Anonymous Says:
“ These people that want to become yiddish are going to be more yiddish as they see that ehrliche yiddishe people will do anything to sanctify the Shabbos and to keep Yerushaleim holy. Why can't all these so called tourists park outside of Yerusheliem and walk into the "Holy City" to see the beauty of it? Why do they Dafka have to be Mechalil Shabbos? How many of these people are Lo Eleini from Jewish ancestors? HUH WHY? ”
your ancestors would never have blogged on the internet. your ancestors would never have thrown dirty diapers at the police. your ancestors swould never have thrown bleach at teenage girls who didn't dress like them. So why do u choose to be diffedrent then yoir own ancestors. clean up your own front yard before you attemt to clean up everyone elses. hypocrisy is one of the worst kinds of chillul hashem.
16
Jun 28, 2009 at 09:42 AM Anonymous Says:
“ you talk like a anti semi ”
I would rather talk like an antisemite then be mechalell shem shomayim befarhesya
17
Jun 28, 2009 at 09:39 AM Ari Says:
Keep it on! Great this Ocher Barakat doesn't understand any language, unfortunately this is the only way to deal with him, protest & loud noises non stop will with Hashems help get the right response,
18
Jun 28, 2009 at 09:37 AM Anonymous Says:
what is that guy in the picture wearing ? and why is he smiling ?
19
Jun 28, 2009 at 09:35 AM Belzer Says:
“ Where in "Shilchon Urich" does it say to throw dirty nappies at tinokei shenishbu? Is that the way a Yid behaves? Is it even going to accomplish anything?
If they want to bring Yidden closer to Yiddishket why don't they invite them for Shabbos meal? Show them the beauty of Shabbos. Show them the beauty of Yiddishkeit.
Do you know that Chabad has much hatzlocho in bringing Yidden back to Yiddishkeit through love, through kiruv? How many Yidden are keeping shabbos as a result of these protests? How many Yidden come closer to Yiddishkeit because of what they see what is reported on the news about these riots?
If you are really concerned about other Yidden's shmiras shabbos, why don't you invite a not-yet frum Yid over for shabbos and try to mekarev him? That’s if you are honest about caring about the holiness of shabbos and your concern whether another yid is keeping shabbos kahalacha.
”
I think the same as you. But we have to do both. With one hand to be "M'karev" and with the other hand to fight. They can't stand how we are "M'karev" and "Machzer B'tshuva" saculer people. So they do everything to make it harder for us. Therefore we have to show them our power so when it comes to their next appertunity they will know that it won't go easy.
20
Jun 28, 2009 at 09:33 AM Anonymous Says:
the protest can and will work! yerushalayim doesn't belong to the Israeli gov't. Torah must prevail in our holy city. We can stand by and watch it get destroyed further or 'when it hurts you scream'! Don't be fooled by the quiet ways of Europe as the right way and the proper way to behave! Be bold and smart and what the Torah says is right!
21
Jun 28, 2009 at 09:31 AM reply to 12 Says:
MR post 12.
how can u compare a private family dispute ( ala avrohom and sara/hagar) to a very PUBLIC chilul hashem - let all the unemployed kollel yungeliet and yeshiva bochurim go and continue to learn torah and let the goverment be run by those that need to take care of it.
THERE IS no shala that this will only turn off those that you are trying to make an impact on. as Shlomo Hamelech so nicley puts it " There is a time and place for everything"
22
Jun 28, 2009 at 09:30 AM Anonymous Says:
גיבורי כח אנשי חיל, איתכם אתנו יהי' חלקינו עמכם
23
Jun 28, 2009 at 09:23 AM bunimfrombrooklyn Says:
Listen to Rav Ovadya he knows everything and he knows what the right thing to do is.He never said to do violence either for all those people who wanna twist his words.He has DAAS TORAH and no one could argue on that not chareidi nor chiloni.
24
Jun 28, 2009 at 10:12 AM Anonymous Says:
“ I think the same as you. But we have to do both. With one hand to be "M'karev" and with the other hand to fight. They can't stand how we are "M'karev" and "Machzer B'tshuva" saculer people. So they do everything to make it harder for us. Therefore we have to show them our power so when it comes to their next appertunity they will know that it won't go easy. ”
Well, at least you got one thing right.
This is all about showing 'our' power to 'them'.
It is about politics and power, not about shabbos and torah.
25
Jun 28, 2009 at 10:08 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Where in "Shilchon Urich" does it say to throw dirty nappies at tinokei shenishbu? Is that the way a Yid behaves? Is it even going to accomplish anything?
If they want to bring Yidden closer to Yiddishket why don't they invite them for Shabbos meal? Show them the beauty of Shabbos. Show them the beauty of Yiddishkeit.
Do you know that Chabad has much hatzlocho in bringing Yidden back to Yiddishkeit through love, through kiruv? How many Yidden are keeping shabbos as a result of these protests? How many Yidden come closer to Yiddishkeit because of what they see what is reported on the news about these riots?
If you are really concerned about other Yidden's shmiras shabbos, why don't you invite a not-yet frum Yid over for shabbos and try to mekarev him? That’s if you are honest about caring about the holiness of shabbos and your concern whether another yid is keeping shabbos kahalacha.
”
A secular Jew told me ones: I see the sweetness of the religious conduct and my is to improve, but some behaviour of many makes me wonder "what's the real different between the Muslims and them". I gave him my answer, but it wasn't as good as the question!!!
26
Jun 28, 2009 at 08:42 AM Number1hocker Says:
Rav Nosson Tzvi Finkal and The Belzer Rebbe dont allow the protest.
27
Jun 28, 2009 at 08:32 AM shema yisrael Says:
We in america must go out in the streets and protest ! To help our brothers in the israeli gulas!!
28
Jun 28, 2009 at 08:31 AM Anonymous Says:
If this is the only way things can be done- they still should not do it! Its acts of not only goyim but arabs! For the world to see on the news frum CHASIDISH boys being arrested for violence is a CHILUL SHEM SHAMYIM!
Who ever thinks that the robonim signed all those letters for hafgonot to turn out like this - U R MISTAKEN. Besides half the ppl protesting couldn't give a damn about the parking lot or chilul shabbos- they just want fun!
And these naïve boys going to prison is the worst thing. If u know what type of abuse they get in prison U WOULD FAINT! The big gangs beat and me'anas these young boys! Hashem help klal yisroel!
29
Jun 28, 2009 at 08:29 AM Gefilte Fish Says:
“ And even if these protests are successful to close the car-park, yotso schoro b'hefseido - more has been lost than gained.
How many yidden are now pushed away from Yiddishkeit by this disgusting display of behaviour - dirty nappies etc.?
At the end of the day are more yidden keeping shabbos in EY after all this? Are more yidden exposed to the beauty of shabbos? To the beauty of Yiddishkeit? Or the exact opposite? More Yidden are repulsed by these actions. Where is the logic in all this?
”
You would probably have said the same after a killing ceremony of one who desecrated the sabbath in the times of the bais hamikdash.
30
Jun 28, 2009 at 11:10 AM Raphael Kaufman Says:
“ You would probably have said the same after a killing ceremony of one who desecrated the sabbath in the times of the bais hamikdash. ”
Is there any mention in Tanach or Gemarah of anyone besides the mekotzeitz being niskal for chillul Shabbos?
31
Jun 28, 2009 at 11:05 AM Paz has it mixed up - Police force = Teheran Says:
Paz has it reversed. She complains:
"Paz-Pines said that Jerusalem Mayor Nir Barkat and the police were not getting the proper backing, adding that "Jerusalem must not be turned into Teheran."
Well, then, she should keep the police out!
32
Jun 28, 2009 at 10:53 AM fight power with power Says:
what in the world are you talking about.
the chiloinim are destroying Judaism in front of our eyes and you're saying we should invite them to a Shabbos Meal????ARE YOU CRAZY?????
maybe while Irans achmanijad destroyes Israel loi olainu we should invite him to a meal to discuss friendship with him.
this is a WAR against all that is Holy to the Jewish people and those in power understand nothing else but power.
we must protest the chilul Shabbos and not let anyone get away with it in the ir habirah CAPITAL of the G-ds world.
33
Jun 28, 2009 at 10:50 AM DovidReich Says:
“ You would probably have said the same after a killing ceremony of one who desecrated the sabbath in the times of the bais hamikdash. ”
no 1
you are million % right
its quite clear that with hatred chas vesholem without saying anything bad
it only brings more hatred - if we really want to protest we should follow our holy sages for 1000's of years by simply doing in a calm and clear voice
also did we ever show our brothers the right way? did we ever give them over the sweetness of shabbos. gevalt lets all pray that we should have the zchiye already to turn over the hearts of the millions of our brothers to be able to show the right way, its kayin and hevel all over again, as our rabbis teach us that there is a great teine to Hevel yes you are right \kayin wants to kill you, BUT DID YOU EVER TEACH HOW TO BRING A SACRIFICE???
ALSO BY MORDCHEI HAZADIK IT SAY
ויצעק צעקה גדולה ומרה
and our rabbis the holliest of all holy say what is the deepest meaning of iMORO
it means with bitterness mordechai went out to protest but not with happines chas vesholem that there is some action we can throw a few old diapers, GEVALT NO HE WAS BITTER AND SAD THAT HE HAS TO PRTEST, AND WAS ALLWAYS PRAYING TO HASHEM YISBORECH THAT HE SHOULD SHINE INTO HIS BROTHERS HEARTS TO COME BACK TO THEIR TATE IN HIMEL IN THE DEEPEST WAY, DAVID REICH LONDON
34
Jun 28, 2009 at 10:49 AM ZR Says:
“ You would probably have said the same after a killing ceremony of one who desecrated the sabbath in the times of the bais hamikdash. ”
There is a massive difference between today’s situation and the times of the Beis Hamikdash. Today most of the secular Jews were raised in secular houses. So they are tinokei shenishbu. They are not the halachick geder of apikursim. They simply don’t know and don’t appreciate the importance of Shabbos, for no fault of their own. Therefore throwing dirty nappies at them for acting in the way they were brought up doesn’t encourage them to respect Shabbos. On the contrary.
However, in the times of Sanhedrin, a Jew who actually gets the death penalty is by definition an apikores. In order to get stoned many conditions have to be fulfilled. 1) There needs to be 2 witnesses. 2) There has to be hasroo - warning that if they do the act they will be arrested and liable to the death penalty. 3) The violater has to acknowledge that he heard the warning 4) and he must commit the act within 2 or three seconds. If he commits the act any later he can claim he "forgot" that its shabbos etc.
So in short it’s almost impossible to get killed for breaking the shabbos. And if a person who lives under a Jewish government that enforces the death penalty on shabbos observance yet still is brazen enough to break the shabbos 2 seconds after getting warned - then such a person (if he is not a tinok shenishbu) is clearly a hater of G-d and desearves his punishment as proscribed by the Torah.
But today the situation is TOTALY different. Most secular are 2nd 3rd or 4th generation secular and certainly tinokei shenishbu. And therefore an honest person who honestly sees yidden not keeping shabbos and honestly cares about his fellow yid - then let him invite the Yid to his house for shabbos and try to mekarev him. Throwing dirty nappies won't help bring Yiddin to Shmeris Shabbos in cases of tinokei shenishbu.
35
Jun 28, 2009 at 10:45 AM Anonymous Says:
I was always taught that the strength of our religion is because it's not with force. Everyone would say "I am proud to be a Jew" you will spoil everything with your stupid stones!
36
Jun 28, 2009 at 10:41 AM Anonymous Says:
“ You would probably have said the same after a killing ceremony of one who desecrated the sabbath in the times of the bais hamikdash. ”
Just a reminder: we are now in exile!!!
37
Jun 28, 2009 at 10:39 AM Anonymous Says:
“ We in america must go out in the streets and protest ! To help our brothers in the israeli gulas!! ”
Exactly how will that help the situation?
38
Jun 28, 2009 at 10:37 AM Milhouse Says:
“ this is one prospective, but the question is "what do we have to do according to Shilchon Urich"? Personal feelings of right and wrong is meaningless when it comes to religious issues with clear Halacha and rabinical guidance. ”
You are exactly right. Now, where in shilchon urich does it say to throw dirty nappies or to set other people's property on fire? Which rabbi guided that? I'm all for protesting chilul shabbos (though I'm still not clear on EXACTLY what the objection is to the Saffra Square car park opening); I'm even for defending oneself from police violence. But what is the arson in aid of? And what kind of person brings dirty nappies with them, "just in case"?
39
Jun 28, 2009 at 11:18 AM Anonymous Says:
My question is. What are the Rabbonim doing about this? I agree that there should be protests, but who is condoning these violent and destructive acts? Personally I don't think anyone is condoning these acts. Where is the Rabbonim in all this? what are they saying? Protests with violence or without? The way it is now I think is a HUGE Chillul Hashem.
40
Jun 28, 2009 at 11:13 AM DovidReich Says:
“ You would probably have said the same after a killing ceremony of one who desecrated the sabbath in the times of the bais hamikdash. ”
no 1
you are million % right
its quite clear that with hatred chas vesholem without saying anything bad
it only brings more hatred - if we really want to protest we should follow our holy sages for 1000's of years by simply doing in a calm and clear voice
also did we ever show our brothers the right way? did we ever give them over the sweetness of shabbos. gevalt lets all pray that we should have the zchiye already to turn over the hearts of the millions of our brothers to be able to show the right way, its kayin and hevel all over again, as our rabbis teach us that there is a great teine to Hevel yes you are right \kayin wants to kill you, BUT DID YOU EVER TEACH HOW TO BRING A SACRIFICE???
ALSO BY MORDCHEI HAZADIK IT SAY
ויצעק צעקה גדולה ומרה
and our rabbis the holliest of all holy say what is the deepest meaning of iMORO
it means with bitterness mordechai went out to protest but not with happines chas vesholem that there is some action we can throw a few old diapers, GEVALT NO HE WAS BITTER AND SAD THAT HE HAS TO PRTEST, AND WAS ALLWAYS PRAYING TO HASHEM YISBORECH THAT HE SHOULD SHINE INTO HIS BROTHERS HEARTS TO COME BACK TO THEIR TATE IN HIMEL IN THE DEEPEST WAY, DAVID REICH LONDON
41
Jun 28, 2009 at 11:12 AM Anonymous Says:
“ this is the biggest Chillul hashem and the results does so much more damage then good. anyone thinking with an open mind will see this as obvious.
nothing is stopping you from keeping Shulcha Aruch, start worrying more about yourself and about the whole country. and if you are that worried about the country, MY questinon to you is WHAT HAVE you done for it????
enough said. ”
yiddishkeit and open mindedness are not and never will be on one line.
The torah is not about open mindedness.
You may not like that. If this is the case tell us what else in the torah do you dislike so much. I see many posters here talking about kiruv. Maybe they should get in touch with you.
42
Jun 28, 2009 at 10:34 AM Milhouse Says:
“ And even if these protests are successful to close the car-park, yotso schoro b'hefseido - more has been lost than gained.
How many yidden are now pushed away from Yiddishkeit by this disgusting display of behaviour - dirty nappies etc.?
At the end of the day are more yidden keeping shabbos in EY after all this? Are more yidden exposed to the beauty of shabbos? To the beauty of Yiddishkeit? Or the exact opposite? More Yidden are repulsed by these actions. Where is the logic in all this?
”
Read the article again. The motzei-shabbos violence was not a protest against chilul shabbos, but against the arrests the police made at the parking-lot protest. In other words the hooligans are standing up for their own. It's their own show, and has no connection to the legitimate protest attended by thousands.
43
Jun 28, 2009 at 10:28 AM Yakov Litz Says:
Of course one should object to chillul Shabbos. But a few questions.
1. At present the street in front of Parking lot Safra has until now cars driving on Shabbos. So why is this permissible?
2. At present and until now the stereet in front of parking lot Karta has cars driving on Shabbos. Why is this permssible.
3. At the beginning of Geula in between Belz Girl's school and Boyon cars drive on Shabbos. Why is this permssible?
4. When they objected about El Al flying on Shabbos Israir flew every Shabbos from Tel Avi to Eilat. No one objected. Egged drives every Shabbos. NO one objects. The same poeple who objected to El Al have their chassidim come to their tishim and children's wedding using Egged.
5. Every Shabbos cars drive on Bar Ilan. No one objects.
6. In many parts of Yerushalyim cars drive on Shabbos.
So a few questions. Where is Chillul Shabbos permitted and wher is it assur? Is ot only where it affects MY Shabbos that it is assur? Are you worried about YOUR Shabbos or Hashem's Shabbos?
How can we demonstrtate if Shabbos really means some to us?
If theses tens of thousands of people who were demonstraing first tried peacefully going to these people and trying to explain to them the beauty of Shabbos.
Had this been done over the years instead of only worrying about your own private shlaimus then the situation today would have been different.
But it is never too late. Let the "Gedolei Hador" show that they are EVERTYONE'S Godol and send out a massive campaign to explain to everyone what Shabbos really is. Show that you are concerned about EVERYONE as a true Godol is.
44
Jun 28, 2009 at 10:23 AM Anonymous Says:
“ the protest can and will work! yerushalayim doesn't belong to the Israeli gov't. Torah must prevail in our holy city. We can stand by and watch it get destroyed further or 'when it hurts you scream'! Don't be fooled by the quiet ways of Europe as the right way and the proper way to behave! Be bold and smart and what the Torah says is right! ”
this is toras mea shearim not toras moshe meeseenai
45
Jun 28, 2009 at 11:23 AM Ari Says:
Reply to #18 he is smiling that he is getting arrested not for anything just because for the shabbos,
Reply to #24 you one hundred percent wrong
46
Jun 28, 2009 at 11:33 AM Anonymous Says:
how many yidden will be turned off from shabbos or yidishket becuase of these wako's?? what a disgrace to torah,yiddishkeit and everything inbetween.
47
Jun 28, 2009 at 11:29 AM grosenberg Says:
Chevrah, I have photos of brutality done against protestors in the past. So, if you are telling me that the violence is from the Chareidim, you want to find bad in the good people. I once released some of the photos on the web, and it was clear that the brutality was the Israeli police against the Chareidim. When little boys bones are broken by hardened older men, you can tell me what you want, but the truth stays the same, the amount of viciousness allowed by the Memshala against anyone frum is like those of oppressive regimes. And anyone saying its a Chilul Hashem, knows nothing about what governs Chilul or Kiddush Hashem. And for those of you who are claiming that all that is needed to "invite the chilonim for a shabbos seuda" you are sadly naive. My chiloni aunts and uncles in Israel grew up frum, left, are not Tinok Shenishba category, and are the "elitists" like those who set Chillul Shabbos policy.
48
Jun 28, 2009 at 11:27 AM Anonymous Says:
“ You would probably have said the same after a killing ceremony of one who desecrated the sabbath in the times of the bais hamikdash. ”
I'm sure he says it.
49
Jun 28, 2009 at 12:06 PM anonymous Says:
Little boys should be home and say tehillim and I am sorry that men zerbrechtr zei nisht die beiner. In the IDF they don't serve, the medina is treife however hillul shabbes shreit men.
50
Jun 28, 2009 at 11:58 AM ZR Says:
“ Chevrah, I have photos of brutality done against protestors in the past. So, if you are telling me that the violence is from the Chareidim, you want to find bad in the good people. I once released some of the photos on the web, and it was clear that the brutality was the Israeli police against the Chareidim. When little boys bones are broken by hardened older men, you can tell me what you want, but the truth stays the same, the amount of viciousness allowed by the Memshala against anyone frum is like those of oppressive regimes. And anyone saying its a Chilul Hashem, knows nothing about what governs Chilul or Kiddush Hashem. And for those of you who are claiming that all that is needed to "invite the chilonim for a shabbos seuda" you are sadly naive. My chiloni aunts and uncles in Israel grew up frum, left, are not Tinok Shenishba category, and are the "elitists" like those who set Chillul Shabbos policy. ”
"And for those of you who are claiming that all that is needed to "invite the chilonim for a shabbos seuda" you are sadly naive."
It’s you who is naive. Thousands upon thousands of Yidden have become shomrei Torah umitzvos by these types of kiruv you call "naive". Unfortunately our work in mekarving Yidden has been made harder by the disgusting actions by "frum" Yidden like throwing dirty nappies.
51
Jun 28, 2009 at 12:15 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Of course one should object to chillul Shabbos. But a few questions.
1. At present the street in front of Parking lot Safra has until now cars driving on Shabbos. So why is this permissible?
2. At present and until now the stereet in front of parking lot Karta has cars driving on Shabbos. Why is this permssible.
3. At the beginning of Geula in between Belz Girl's school and Boyon cars drive on Shabbos. Why is this permssible?
4. When they objected about El Al flying on Shabbos Israir flew every Shabbos from Tel Avi to Eilat. No one objected. Egged drives every Shabbos. NO one objects. The same poeple who objected to El Al have their chassidim come to their tishim and children's wedding using Egged.
5. Every Shabbos cars drive on Bar Ilan. No one objects.
6. In many parts of Yerushalyim cars drive on Shabbos.
So a few questions. Where is Chillul Shabbos permitted and wher is it assur? Is ot only where it affects MY Shabbos that it is assur? Are you worried about YOUR Shabbos or Hashem's Shabbos?
How can we demonstrtate if Shabbos really means some to us?
If theses tens of thousands of people who were demonstraing first tried peacefully going to these people and trying to explain to them the beauty of Shabbos.
Had this been done over the years instead of only worrying about your own private shlaimus then the situation today would have been different.
But it is never too late. Let the "Gedolei Hador" show that they are EVERTYONE'S Godol and send out a massive campaign to explain to everyone what Shabbos really is. Show that you are concerned about EVERYONE as a true Godol is.
”
there's a major diff between an existing chillul shabbos and a new one.
u must be a gerrer chusid who's trying to cover up for the "shreklicheh" chillul shabbos your people have arranged for the frum voters in yerushalayim
52
Jun 28, 2009 at 11:52 AM How about this??? Says:
Did it ever dawn on the naysayers here that the protest was not supposed to be violent and the incitment of the roshaim cops made this into an ugly scene???
53
Jun 28, 2009 at 11:50 AM ZR Says:
“ what in the world are you talking about.
the chiloinim are destroying Judaism in front of our eyes and you're saying we should invite them to a Shabbos Meal????ARE YOU CRAZY?????
maybe while Irans achmanijad destroyes Israel loi olainu we should invite him to a meal to discuss friendship with him.
this is a WAR against all that is Holy to the Jewish people and those in power understand nothing else but power.
we must protest the chilul Shabbos and not let anyone get away with it in the ir habirah CAPITAL of the G-ds world. ”
Have you ever tried it? Maybe if you try it you might see some success in bringing them closer to Hashem.
If your son goes off the derech will you also be against any attempt to mekarev him???? Every yid is the son of the Eibishter and Hashem loves every Yid. If you love Hashem you would love those whom Hashem loves.
Many many thousands of "chilonim" have become frum through a little love and kiruv. For you the chilonim are your enemies out to destroy Yiddishkeit. For me the chilonim are Jews who have unfortunately been brought up without Torah. It’s our responsibility as fellow Yidden to mekarev them back to their Father in Heaven.
54
Jun 28, 2009 at 12:21 PM shomer shabbas Says:
Brothers in Israel,keep it up! Fight for shabbas.
55
Jun 28, 2009 at 12:51 PM Milhouse Says:
“ I was always taught that the strength of our religion is because it's not with force. Everyone would say "I am proud to be a Jew" you will spoil everything with your stupid stones! ”
I don't know who taught you that. The strength of our religion is its truth. The ways in which it responds to different situations depend on the circumstances. Sometimes force is called for, and sometimes not. But Judaism certainly does not rule out force, when it's the best way to achieve a goal.
56
Jun 28, 2009 at 12:43 PM Truth Be Told Says:
Rabosai, its time to examine some deeper issues.
In Israel we do have a minority of Chareidim who have the aptitude to learn Torah all day and withdraw from participation in society, while being content with their role in life.
There is a much larger group of Chareidim who do not have the aptitude to learn Torah all day, they are prevented from obtaining a decent secular eduation or becoming professionals, they are discouraged from going in the army, and they are forced to observe numerous difficult "chumrot", some of these "chumrot" having no real basis in halacha.
Meanwhile the halachic teachings of true Gadolim of past ages has been abandoned, such as the Chasam Sofer zt"l, who strongly emphasized the mitzvah of yishuv ha aretz which includes many types of trades to build and settle Eretz Yisrael. (See Eim Habanim Semeicha, English edition, p. 303, also Chiddushei Chasam Sofer, Sukkah 36a).
This latter group has thus become an angry, idle, underclass of malcontents ready to explode in violence at a moment's notice, especially when they can be incited against their perceived adversaries the "Chilonim". Of course its true that many of these Chilonim are self hating, Torah hating, suicidal leftists, but these leftists did not cause the predicament of the Chareidim.
Closing a parking lot on Shabbos will do nothing to cure the dire situation of masses of Chareidim in Eretz Yisrael.
57
Jun 28, 2009 at 12:36 PM Anonymous Says:
Shame on you Ger! The most important thing to you is money and kovod What a chillul Hashem!!!!!! Boruch Hashem klal yisroel have true rabbonim (not the gerreg muchutin) who know what to do
Why don't we protest in front of the Gerer rebbes house? We can thank him for the chillul shabbos
58
Jun 28, 2009 at 12:29 PM From 43 Says:
“ there's a major diff between an existing chillul shabbos and a new one.
u must be a gerrer chusid who's trying to cover up for the "shreklicheh" chillul shabbos your people have arranged for the frum voters in yerushalayim ”
Not at all. It was Ger who called for the embargo on El AL not Egged nor Israir. You have it all wrong. Read again.
Object but object because of Shabbos and not your personal feelings. First object positiverly then negatively.
Try and fix klall Yisreol not only your back yard.
59
Jun 28, 2009 at 01:35 PM dovy Says:
THe facts: Tens of thousands of Yidden peacefully protested against chilul Shabbos. The brutal police force used bone breaking force and terror tacticts to hurt them . It is a nes nigleh that noone was killed. THe police are barbaric savages. A small number of demonstraters took the bait and responded to the provocations. The anti-semitic israeli press had a field day.
These are the facts. Of course, the haters won't allow themselves to be blinded by them.
60
Jun 28, 2009 at 01:31 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Not at all. It was Ger who called for the embargo on El AL not Egged nor Israir. You have it all wrong. Read again.
Object but object because of Shabbos and not your personal feelings. First object positiverly then negatively.
Try and fix klall Yisreol not only your back yard. ”
Enough what is your infatuation with Ger, it sounds like you have this personal "Charlie Wilson's" War with Ger
61
Jun 28, 2009 at 01:23 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Where in "Shilchon Urich" does it say to throw dirty nappies at tinokei shenishbu? Is that the way a Yid behaves? Is it even going to accomplish anything?
If they want to bring Yidden closer to Yiddishket why don't they invite them for Shabbos meal? Show them the beauty of Shabbos. Show them the beauty of Yiddishkeit.
Do you know that Chabad has much hatzlocho in bringing Yidden back to Yiddishkeit through love, through kiruv? How many Yidden are keeping shabbos as a result of these protests? How many Yidden come closer to Yiddishkeit because of what they see what is reported on the news about these riots?
If you are really concerned about other Yidden's shmiras shabbos, why don't you invite a not-yet frum Yid over for shabbos and try to mekarev him? That’s if you are honest about caring about the holiness of shabbos and your concern whether another yid is keeping shabbos kahalacha.
”
We need both. The friendly approach works on a retail level. One on one. You get close to someone, he sees you as an individual, not as part of a hostile mass, and he learns what Shabbos is about. But when there's a public chilul shabbos, which is by definition a chilul hashem, there has to be a mass response. Remember that Barkat acts in the name of every single resident of the city; each of them therefore has the obligation to publicly dissociate himself from that action. Chovas macho'oh applies even when there's no chance of it working, kal vachomer when there is. A public rally is the only way to do this; what would you do instead - issue a press release?!
Then there's TR's advice to walk softly and carry a big stick. Good cop, bad cop. Yemin mekareves usmol docheh. When askonim go to negotiate with the city, it helps if the city is reminded that they're not unarmed, that they're not coming as helpless beggars asking humbly for a favor. It's reported (I don't know with what accuracy) that the Lubavitcher Rebbe said that if Satmar and Neturei Karta didn't exist he would be obliged to do what they're doing; since they did exist, they were motzi him and he was free to work the other side of the street. (This was the NK of his day, R Amram Blau z"l's NK, not Moshe Hirsch and his merry band of traitors.)
62
Jun 28, 2009 at 01:20 PM Most of you are forgetting something Says:
The Chilul HaShem is the "jewish" city openly supporting Mechalelay Shabbos and NOT necessarily the people protesting the act. Sometimes lo'alaynu in galus we lose sight of what is EMES and what is sheker, and we mix the two up. Doing a commandment in the Torah is NOT a chilul HaShem however NOT DOING A MITZVA etc., of the TORAH is the REAL Chilul HaShem.
63
Jun 28, 2009 at 12:55 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Just a reminder: we are now in exile!!! ”
What difference does that make? Exile doesn't change what's right, it only affects our ability to do anything about it. If we were not in exile we wouldn't have to protest chilul shabbos in Y'm; if someone opened a car park we would close it down and arrest him. Nebach we're in golus, so we're reduced to less effective measures; but it doesn't change the underlying principle. The Torah is just as much in force now as it ever was, and אף על פי שבטלה סנהדרי דין ארבע מיתות לא בטלו
64
Jun 28, 2009 at 12:58 PM Milhouse Says:
“ My question is. What are the Rabbonim doing about this? I agree that there should be protests, but who is condoning these violent and destructive acts? Personally I don't think anyone is condoning these acts. Where is the Rabbonim in all this? what are they saying? Protests with violence or without? The way it is now I think is a HUGE Chillul Hashem. ”
Nobody is condoning it, but why do the rabbonim need to do anything about it? On the order of priorities, what is more important, public chilul shabbos, or private vandalism on the part of few dozen hooligans?
65
Jun 28, 2009 at 03:24 PM Anonymous Says:
The Gedolim said people should protest, they never said to do acts of violence, especially against another jew.
That being said absolutly the lot should be closed. What people choose to do (whether to keep shabbos or not) , and the official policy of the city of Yerushalayim are two different things. People can do what they feel is appropriate for themselves, but for chilul shabbos as an official act of the city of Yerushalayim, is UNACCEPTABLE.
66
Jun 28, 2009 at 03:06 PM Big Masmid Says:
“ what is that guy in the picture wearing ? and why is he smiling ? ”
he is smiling because he has spoken out loud and clear saying HASHEM wants the parking lot CLOSED on Shabbos Kodesh !!!
67
Jun 28, 2009 at 02:57 PM grosenberg Says:
49 - one of the biggest eye-openers for naive folks like you is that many Chilonim, the most elite of them, make sure that their children don't serve in the IDF, but no one says boo. My mollycoddled cousins get exemptions and go abroad, as do many of the other intellectual snobs of Israels society. Look at the rate of politicians children not serving. It is nice to keep focusing on the Yeshiva bochurim who don't serve in the IDF rather than see the rich, educated, techies working for Bill Gates who don't serve in the IDF!!!
68
Jun 28, 2009 at 03:58 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Rabosai, its time to examine some deeper issues.
In Israel we do have a minority of Chareidim who have the aptitude to learn Torah all day and withdraw from participation in society, while being content with their role in life.
There is a much larger group of Chareidim who do not have the aptitude to learn Torah all day, they are prevented from obtaining a decent secular eduation or becoming professionals, they are discouraged from going in the army, and they are forced to observe numerous difficult "chumrot", some of these "chumrot" having no real basis in halacha.
Meanwhile the halachic teachings of true Gadolim of past ages has been abandoned, such as the Chasam Sofer zt"l, who strongly emphasized the mitzvah of yishuv ha aretz which includes many types of trades to build and settle Eretz Yisrael. (See Eim Habanim Semeicha, English edition, p. 303, also Chiddushei Chasam Sofer, Sukkah 36a).
This latter group has thus become an angry, idle, underclass of malcontents ready to explode in violence at a moment's notice, especially when they can be incited against their perceived adversaries the "Chilonim". Of course its true that many of these Chilonim are self hating, Torah hating, suicidal leftists, but these leftists did not cause the predicament of the Chareidim.
Closing a parking lot on Shabbos will do nothing to cure the dire situation of masses of Chareidim in Eretz Yisrael. ”
Most of what you say is true. But what has any of it got to do with the topic at hand? Nothing you propose would have stopped Barkat from opening the parking lot; I'm still not sure exactly what the problem with that is, but assuming it is a problem a protest would still be necessary.
69
Jun 28, 2009 at 04:04 PM moish Says:
“ what is that guy in the picture wearing ? and why is he smiling ? ”
Because as Papus said to R' Akiva "ashrecho shenitfasto al divrei torah".
70
Jun 28, 2009 at 04:04 PM Anonymous Says:
“ he is smiling because he has spoken out loud and clear saying HASHEM wants the parking lot CLOSED on Shabbos Kodesh !!! ”
He's smiling because he is an IDIOT!
71
Jun 28, 2009 at 04:03 PM Anonymous Says:
“ 49 - one of the biggest eye-openers for naive folks like you is that many Chilonim, the most elite of them, make sure that their children don't serve in the IDF, but no one says boo. My mollycoddled cousins get exemptions and go abroad, as do many of the other intellectual snobs of Israels society. Look at the rate of politicians children not serving. It is nice to keep focusing on the Yeshiva bochurim who don't serve in the IDF rather than see the rich, educated, techies working for Bill Gates who don't serve in the IDF!!! ”
You have no clue what you are talking about!
72
Jun 28, 2009 at 04:02 PM moish Says:
“ Of course one should object to chillul Shabbos. But a few questions.
1. At present the street in front of Parking lot Safra has until now cars driving on Shabbos. So why is this permissible?
2. At present and until now the stereet in front of parking lot Karta has cars driving on Shabbos. Why is this permssible.
3. At the beginning of Geula in between Belz Girl's school and Boyon cars drive on Shabbos. Why is this permssible?
4. When they objected about El Al flying on Shabbos Israir flew every Shabbos from Tel Avi to Eilat. No one objected. Egged drives every Shabbos. NO one objects. The same poeple who objected to El Al have their chassidim come to their tishim and children's wedding using Egged.
5. Every Shabbos cars drive on Bar Ilan. No one objects.
6. In many parts of Yerushalyim cars drive on Shabbos.
So a few questions. Where is Chillul Shabbos permitted and wher is it assur? Is ot only where it affects MY Shabbos that it is assur? Are you worried about YOUR Shabbos or Hashem's Shabbos?
How can we demonstrtate if Shabbos really means some to us?
If theses tens of thousands of people who were demonstraing first tried peacefully going to these people and trying to explain to them the beauty of Shabbos.
Had this been done over the years instead of only worrying about your own private shlaimus then the situation today would have been different.
But it is never too late. Let the "Gedolei Hador" show that they are EVERTYONE'S Godol and send out a massive campaign to explain to everyone what Shabbos really is. Show that you are concerned about EVERYONE as a true Godol is.
”
To answer all your questions, it is not possible in metzius to protest every chilul shabbos going on in the medinah, so it is limited to new chiluley shabbos which have a chance of being prevented. And about explaining the beauty of shabbos etc. there are many wonderful organizations that do this, and both are needed.
73
Jun 28, 2009 at 03:52 PM moish Says:
“ Is there any mention in Tanach or Gemarah of anyone besides the mekotzeitz being niskal for chillul Shabbos? ”
What is your point? You don't believe they were mekayem the din of the torah? The the tanach and gemoro are a story book c"v?
74
Jun 28, 2009 at 04:17 PM moish Says:
I want to mention an important point. Besides for the obvious hishtadlus that needs to be done, we have to remember that our biggest koach is tefillah, so all who are truly concerned with kiddush shem shomayim and shmiras shabbos should beseech Hashem in heartfelt davening to bring an end to chilul shabbos.
75
Jun 28, 2009 at 04:30 PM Anonymous Says:
Netanyahu has only contempt for the hareidim (as do most secular Israelis) but uses them for political purposes when it is convenient. With the large percentage of Israelis disgusted by the chilul hashem being perpetrated in the name of "shimiras shabbos", he will hopefully turn loose the army and put down these protesters forcibly and restore the rule of law. These demonstrators are making all frumme yiddin look like a bunch of hooligans and Rav Yosef and Rav Eliyashav have embarrassed themselves.
76
Jun 28, 2009 at 05:49 PM gavi Says:
im curious, i honestly am not sure about the answer here and am interested in your responses, lets say that we knew with 100% certanty that the protest would result in the lot being closed down for shabbos, but that it would also result in a jew who had been on the path to coming back on the derech spending the rest of his life irreligious ch''v, would it be worth it, lets say 2 jews, 3, 10?
77
Jun 28, 2009 at 05:16 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Netanyahu has only contempt for the hareidim (as do most secular Israelis) but uses them for political purposes when it is convenient. With the large percentage of Israelis disgusted by the chilul hashem being perpetrated in the name of "shimiras shabbos", he will hopefully turn loose the army and put down these protesters forcibly and restore the rule of law. These demonstrators are making all frumme yiddin look like a bunch of hooligans and Rav Yosef and Rav Eliyashav have embarrassed themselves. ”
What the two rabbonim are doing by supporting the demonstrations would be more responsible if their calls for "davening protests" near the parking lots were accompanied by clear and unequivocal statements against engaging in any violence, taunting of the police or harassament of the media.
78
Jun 28, 2009 at 05:06 PM Truth Be Told Says:
“ Most of what you say is true. But what has any of it got to do with the topic at hand? Nothing you propose would have stopped Barkat from opening the parking lot; I'm still not sure exactly what the problem with that is, but assuming it is a problem a protest would still be necessary. ”
Milhouse, you asked "But what has any of it got to do with the topic at hand?"
I believe it has everything to do with the question at hand. In Israel we have an underclass of angry, idle, and impoverished Chareidim, many of whom can neither learn all day, nor can they become productive citizens in Israeli society. They therefore explode with a violent fury at the "Chilonim" and the "Tziyonim" at every real or imagined provocation.
Had they chosen to become fully Torah observant but rational, productive, integrated citizens of Israel, the Chareidim would not have the time, energy, or aggression to explode in anger at every violation of Torah law by the so-called "Chilonim".
If the violent Chareidim were to return to a rational, halachic, and scientific Judaism, a core of Torah hating leftist Chilonim would remain, but many Chilonim might gain some respect for Judaism and might consider observing the Torah.
79
Jun 28, 2009 at 05:00 PM Yakov Litz Says:
“ To answer all your questions, it is not possible in metzius to protest every chilul shabbos going on in the medinah, so it is limited to new chiluley shabbos which have a chance of being prevented. And about explaining the beauty of shabbos etc. there are many wonderful organizations that do this, and both are needed.
”
There may be a few orginazations explaining the beauty of Shabbos. But if ALL those who went out on the demonstrations were explaining the beauty of Shabbos over the years the medinah would look different. They are only concerned with their own personal Shabbos comforts.
80
Jun 28, 2009 at 05:51 PM Bunimfrombrooklyn Says:
“ Netanyahu has only contempt for the hareidim (as do most secular Israelis) but uses them for political purposes when it is convenient. With the large percentage of Israelis disgusted by the chilul hashem being perpetrated in the name of "shimiras shabbos", he will hopefully turn loose the army and put down these protesters forcibly and restore the rule of law. These demonstrators are making all frumme yiddin look like a bunch of hooligans and Rav Yosef and Rav Eliyashav have embarrassed themselves. ”
Idiot
Rabbi Elyashiv and Rabbi Ovadya are not pro violence
all they said was to daven outsides
81
Jun 28, 2009 at 07:06 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Milhouse, you asked "But what has any of it got to do with the topic at hand?"
I believe it has everything to do with the question at hand. In Israel we have an underclass of angry, idle, and impoverished Chareidim, many of whom can neither learn all day, nor can they become productive citizens in Israeli society. They therefore explode with a violent fury at the "Chilonim" and the "Tziyonim" at every real or imagined provocation.
Had they chosen to become fully Torah observant but rational, productive, integrated citizens of Israel, the Chareidim would not have the time, energy, or aggression to explode in anger at every violation of Torah law by the so-called "Chilonim".
If the violent Chareidim were to return to a rational, halachic, and scientific Judaism, a core of Torah hating leftist Chilonim would remain, but many Chilonim might gain some respect for Judaism and might consider observing the Torah.
”
Do you think the two dozen or whatever violent people are kollel yungeleit?! That's ridiculous. Those who initiate violence (as opposed to those who act in self defense or as an immediate response to chilul hashem) are young louts who haven't seen the inside of a gemoro in years. No work program would affect them.
82
Jun 28, 2009 at 06:55 PM Milhouse Says:
“ im curious, i honestly am not sure about the answer here and am interested in your responses, lets say that we knew with 100% certanty that the protest would result in the lot being closed down for shabbos, but that it would also result in a jew who had been on the path to coming back on the derech spending the rest of his life irreligious ch''v, would it be worth it, lets say 2 jews, 3, 10? ”
Bahade kavshe derachmono lomo loch. If you have an opportunity to stop chilul shabbos (not just displacing it to another location, which is all I suspect closing the lot would do, but actually stopping it) then you must take it, and not worry about the long-term consequences. But that's a hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question.
83
Jun 28, 2009 at 09:05 PM ZR Says:
“ Bahade kavshe derachmono lomo loch. If you have an opportunity to stop chilul shabbos (not just displacing it to another location, which is all I suspect closing the lot would do, but actually stopping it) then you must take it, and not worry about the long-term consequences. But that's a hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question. ”
It’s hypothetical if closing this car-park will lessen chillul Shabbos. But it’s a certainty that these riots a merachek Yidden from Yiddishkeit. Therefore the Rabbonim should do the responsible thing for Klal Yisroel and condemn the violence of these "peaceful" protests and make it clear they in no way condone any of the violence.
84
Jun 28, 2009 at 09:12 PM Milhouse Says:
“ It’s hypothetical if closing this car-park will lessen chillul Shabbos. But it’s a certainty that these riots a merachek Yidden from Yiddishkeit. Therefore the Rabbonim should do the responsible thing for Klal Yisroel and condemn the violence of these "peaceful" protests and make it clear they in no way condone any of the violence. ”
Not even the violence in self-defense and defense of others? If you see someone beating a yid, don't you have to come to their defense? And not even the immediate violence last week when a policeman lit up in front of the crowd in order to show his contempt for the shabbos? If you see something like that aren't you OBLIGATED to react immediately, and isn't letting it go by a chilul hashem? When the cohen spilled the water on his feet, were the people wrong to stone him with their esrogim? Did Chazal condemn them for it?
Those few who initiate violence for fun, those who set things on fire, those who bring dirty nappies "just in case they'll come in handy", have already been condemned, and continue to be condemned at every opportunity. But they don't care what the rabbonim think.
86
Jun 29, 2009 at 03:15 AM Anonymous Says:
rav chaim once told a rabid tzioni that he had proof that giving to the keren kayemes wasn't such a big mitvah, & his proof was that this tzioni was the biggest advocate. I tremble to think how all these posters crying chilul hashem conduct themselves in their daily lives, will hashem be proud of their lives or chas veshalom . . stop crying chilul hashem & start living your lives as a kiddush hashem (get help from your local Orthodox rabbi), then you'll see frum jews in a different light.
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Jun 29, 2009 at 01:31 AM ZR Says:
“ Not even the violence in self-defense and defense of others? If you see someone beating a yid, don't you have to come to their defense? And not even the immediate violence last week when a policeman lit up in front of the crowd in order to show his contempt for the shabbos? If you see something like that aren't you OBLIGATED to react immediately, and isn't letting it go by a chilul hashem? When the cohen spilled the water on his feet, were the people wrong to stone him with their esrogim? Did Chazal condemn them for it?
Those few who initiate violence for fun, those who set things on fire, those who bring dirty nappies "just in case they'll come in handy", have already been condemned, and continue to be condemned at every opportunity. But they don't care what the rabbonim think. ”
If it’s true that the Rabbonim have condemned those who initiate the violence for fun then let VIN publish their words for all to see. All we are getting from VIN and other news sources is the fact that the Rabbonim are calling for the protests which inevitably end up with violence. Yet the Rabbonim call for more protests without making it clear (at least to us VIN and main stream media readers) that they will not tolerate thugs who initiate violence and destroy property for fun.
If the Rabbonim made it clear, *in the main-stream media*, .that they will not tolerate these hooligans who are causing massive chillul Hashem -- then it’s a whole different matter. But as the way it stands now, it comes across in the media that the Rabbonim are not unduly upset about the violence. And this perception is what causes people to be repulsed by the actions of “frumer” Yidden. Just read the comments on Jpost to get an idea how this comes across to not-yet frum Yidden.