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Israel - Military Rabbi: Women Shouldn't Serve in the Army

Published on: July 2, 2009 08:10 AM
By:  Haaretz
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Israel - Women ought not to serve in the Israel Defense Forces, IDF Chief Rabbi Avichai Ronski said at a conference.

The conference was attended by several dozen religious women soldiers, and the topic was supposed to be the special problems they face.

Most religious women opt to do civilian national service instead of army service. But Ronski told the women, “I personally think that a priori, women should not serve in the army,” adding that no rabbinic rulings authorize women to do so. He has since denied making the comment.

Most Orthodox rabbis, his predecessors included, would agree with Ronski. But most of the others have been careful not to say so while in uniform.

And some of those present, including some Orthodox rabbis and educators, were furious at Ronski’s statement.
“I’m not surprised that this is his opinion,” said one woman. “But that he chose to say it in front of dozens of religious women soldiers, who have done something that is not easy for them - that is insensitivity.”

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Several women said they found his remarks particularly outrageous because he met his own wife while she was serving as a company clerk in his army unit.

Rabbi Ohad Tohar-Lev of Midreshet Lindenbaum, one of the few religious institutions for women that offers a program combining Torah study with army service, said he personally believes “there are some army positions that a woman should serve in a priori.” He added that he has no objection to Ronski expressing the contrary opinion, “but one has to ask the leaders of the army whether there isn’t a problem with the very appointment of someone who holds this view.”

Yet Tohar-Lev, along with several others who criticized Ronski’s remark, all praised him for the fact that despite his views, he tries to help religious women solve any problems they encounter in the army.

“The message is that it’s better not to be drafted,” said one religious woman soldier. “But from the moment we are in uniform, there’s a great deal of assistance.”
In this, Ronski differs sharply from his predecessors, many of whom refused to help religious women soldiers on the grounds that they should not have enlisted to begin with.

Several women at the conference complained that the religious education system does not support them in their decision to serve. “Do you want me to speak with your school principals?” Ronski responded.

Ronski also discussed the rabbinic prohibition against physical contact between unmarried men and women, noting that some religious women observed this prohibition while doing their army service, but others did not.

Ronski has spoken out in the past against integrating women into combat units, arguing that women cannot realize their full potential in combat units, that putting men and women together under such difficult conditions creates all kinds of sexual problems, and that having women in these units offends the sensibilities of male religious soldiers. But he has said he favors using women as instructors in the army, because they tend to have personality traits appropriate for this job, such as “delicacy, patience and persistence.”

An IDF Spokesman said last night that Ronski denied making the comment, and said he merely had commented on the difficulties facing some women during their military service.

“The IDF chief rabbi told those attending the conference that during his visits to IDF units, he witnessed the difficulties that religious women had in integrating, due to the inability to permit them to serve in accordance with Jewish law,” the office said.


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1

 Jul 02, 2009 at 07:20 AM Anonymous Says:

In a continuing saga of these rabbonim talking without using their head, this excuse for a rav manages to insult the brave women of the IDF who at great personal cost and risk have chosen to volunteer to defend EY. It is almost like their is somthing impulsive that drives them to make such stupid comments which are so hurtful and wrong. There are bigger rabbonim and gadolei torah in EY for over 50 years have ruled that women may serve under the proper circumstances. Hopefully, rav ronski will appologize to the women of the IDF and then resign his position before he is terminated.

2

 Jul 02, 2009 at 08:19 AM shlemiel Says:

Over 60 years ago, it has been ruled by all our biggest gedoilim that women serving in the military is "BeYehereg VeAl Yavor" translation:one should rather get killed then join the shmutzige military.

3

 Jul 02, 2009 at 08:07 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

In a continuing saga of these rabbonim talking without using their head, this excuse for a rav manages to insult the brave women of the IDF who at great personal cost and risk have chosen to volunteer to defend EY. It is almost like their is somthing impulsive that drives them to make such stupid comments which are so hurtful and wrong. There are bigger rabbonim and gadolei torah in EY for over 50 years have ruled that women may serve under the proper circumstances. Hopefully, rav ronski will appologize to the women of the IDF and then resign his position before he is terminated.

If it turns out that Ronski was really misquoted, then we owe him an appology but it seems he is trying to have it both ways by acknowledging that the policy is to allow women in the army but then say the policy is unworkable.

4

 Jul 02, 2009 at 08:37 AM Anonymous Says:

I agree with this how many mamzerim were born through this? unknown.

5

 Jul 02, 2009 at 09:25 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #4  
Anonymous Says:

I agree with this how many mamzerim were born through this? unknown.

Huh?

6

 Jul 02, 2009 at 09:25 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

If it turns out that Ronski was really misquoted, then we owe him an appology but it seems he is trying to have it both ways by acknowledging that the policy is to allow women in the army but then say the policy is unworkable.

He is doing his job as a rov. He makes it clear that there is no heter for women joining the army in the first place, but now that these women have chosen to do so anyway he can't abandon them, and must do what he can to help them remain as observant as possible. Most people do things they shouldn't; that doesn't mean that suddenly everything becomes permitted. If you ask a rov about keeping shabbos and kashrus at a rock festival featuring kol isha and lewd acts on stage, he has the duty to tell you that you shouldn't go; but having done so he must also give you guidance about how to behave yourself there, since you're determined to go. If he takes the attitude that since you're going to such an event you're a sheigetz and it doesn't matter what other issurim you transgress, he's falling down on his job.

7

 Jul 02, 2009 at 09:17 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

In a continuing saga of these rabbonim talking without using their head, this excuse for a rav manages to insult the brave women of the IDF who at great personal cost and risk have chosen to volunteer to defend EY. It is almost like their is somthing impulsive that drives them to make such stupid comments which are so hurtful and wrong. There are bigger rabbonim and gadolei torah in EY for over 50 years have ruled that women may serve under the proper circumstances. Hopefully, rav ronski will appologize to the women of the IDF and then resign his position before he is terminated.

" There are bigger rabbonim and gadolei torah in EY for over 50 years have ruled that women may serve under the proper circumstances."

Oh yeah? Name some.

8

 Jul 02, 2009 at 09:22 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
Anonymous Says:

I agree with this how many mamzerim were born through this? unknown.

Please elaborate.

9

 Jul 02, 2009 at 09:22 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

In a continuing saga of these rabbonim talking without using their head, this excuse for a rav manages to insult the brave women of the IDF who at great personal cost and risk have chosen to volunteer to defend EY. It is almost like their is somthing impulsive that drives them to make such stupid comments which are so hurtful and wrong. There are bigger rabbonim and gadolei torah in EY for over 50 years have ruled that women may serve under the proper circumstances. Hopefully, rav ronski will appologize to the women of the IDF and then resign his position before he is terminated.

Please provide the names of the bigger rabbonim who permitted women to serve in combat units.

10

 Jul 02, 2009 at 09:21 AM FVNMS Says:

Reply to #2  
shlemiel Says:

Over 60 years ago, it has been ruled by all our biggest gedoilim that women serving in the military is "BeYehereg VeAl Yavor" translation:one should rather get killed then join the shmutzige military.

When making a statement like yours please bear in mind that you are diluting the severity of Avoda Zara, Shfichas Damim and Giluy Arayos.

I had a rebbe in yeshiva who said the same thing about eating turkey on Thanksgiving Day. Some groisse chuchem passed out pamphlets stating (in reference to the business arena) it is better to be killed than to shake a woman's hand.

I don't want to hear that these exponentially lesser aveiros are begeder the "Big Three." Fire-and-Brimstone turns off many people, even those commited to strict observance of Halacha.

11

 Jul 02, 2009 at 09:14 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

In a continuing saga of these rabbonim talking without using their head, this excuse for a rav manages to insult the brave women of the IDF who at great personal cost and risk have chosen to volunteer to defend EY. It is almost like their is somthing impulsive that drives them to make such stupid comments which are so hurtful and wrong. There are bigger rabbonim and gadolei torah in EY for over 50 years have ruled that women may serve under the proper circumstances. Hopefully, rav ronski will appologize to the women of the IDF and then resign his position before he is terminated.

"There are bigger rabbonim and gadolei torah in EY for over 50 years have ruled that women may serve under the proper circumstances." - name the rabonnim and what is considered proper circumstances. It is clear to me that you are not frum

12

 Jul 02, 2009 at 09:06 AM JD Says:

Reply to #4  
Anonymous Says:

I agree with this how many mamzerim were born through this? unknown.

The good news is that mamzerim are not that usual anymore since we have birth control and abortions available.

Try to use your head before clicking the post button please.

I think the message here is pretty simple. Lechatchila, don't join the army, if you choose to do so, here is how to do it.

Shlemiel, please back that up with something in writing from a mainstream Gadol Hador. Thanks.

13

 Jul 02, 2009 at 09:29 AM reb lazer hakuten Says:

At The time of the establishment of the Medineh shel gehennom. The Gedolim of the time (brisker Rov, Chazon Ish and others) were all against Civilian National service. ( sherut Leumi)

14

 Jul 02, 2009 at 09:40 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #11  
Anonymous Says:

"There are bigger rabbonim and gadolei torah in EY for over 50 years have ruled that women may serve under the proper circumstances." - name the rabonnim and what is considered proper circumstances. It is clear to me that you are not frum

#7, #9 and #11 all raised the same issue, namely, who are the rabbonim who #1 mentioned.

Why couldn't #7 and #11 write politely?

Forget charaidim slipping into Talibanism. We seem to be slipping into Milhouse-ism.

15

 Jul 02, 2009 at 09:35 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #11  
Anonymous Says:

"There are bigger rabbonim and gadolei torah in EY for over 50 years have ruled that women may serve under the proper circumstances." - name the rabonnim and what is considered proper circumstances. It is clear to me that you are not frum

For Gd's sake, can we please knock off the c*** of calling each other non-frum???

16

 Jul 02, 2009 at 09:35 AM Shmuel Says:

perhaps if all the men including chardei yeshiva boys served in the military there would be no need for women to serve...think of what a mitzva they could be part of in freeing young jewish women from conscription..(religious women can already opt out if they so choose)..

17

 Jul 02, 2009 at 10:31 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

Please provide the names of the bigger rabbonim who permitted women to serve in combat units.

I didn't say rabbonim have said it is permitted to serve in Combat...I was referring to the decisions of the rabbis in prior governments going back to the creation of the medinah who have said women may serve in non-combat support roles. I don't know any rabbi (or government official for that matter) who advocates women in combat.

18

 Jul 02, 2009 at 11:03 AM Harav Shach Hu Tzodaik Says:

Reply to #2  
shlemiel Says:

Over 60 years ago, it has been ruled by all our biggest gedoilim that women serving in the military is "BeYehereg VeAl Yavor" translation:one should rather get killed then join the shmutzige military.

Please be kind enough to cite the source in which I might look up that psak halachah.

Thank You.

19

 Jul 02, 2009 at 11:01 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #17  
Anonymous Says:

I didn't say rabbonim have said it is permitted to serve in Combat...I was referring to the decisions of the rabbis in prior governments going back to the creation of the medinah who have said women may serve in non-combat support roles. I don't know any rabbi (or government official for that matter) who advocates women in combat.

Thank you for that clarification.

It appears based on my reading of the third-hand reports in the media, his main issue seems to be with women serving in combat and other units in which the proper level of tzni'ut cannot be maintained.

I hope you will forgive my pointing out that you verbal attack on Rabbi Ronski served no purpose, unless your purpose was to create an enviornment in which nothing improves because neither side will even listen to what the other has to say.

As Milhouse does to anyone to his left, you have de-ordained Rabbi Ronski and de-ligitemized his position because it differs from yours.

Klal Yisrael needs constructive and respectful debate and even criticism, not further machlokes cloaked in the appearance of our being upset for kavod shomayim.

20

 Jul 02, 2009 at 11:25 AM shlemiel Says:

Reply to #10  
FVNMS Says:

When making a statement like yours please bear in mind that you are diluting the severity of Avoda Zara, Shfichas Damim and Giluy Arayos.

I had a rebbe in yeshiva who said the same thing about eating turkey on Thanksgiving Day. Some groisse chuchem passed out pamphlets stating (in reference to the business arena) it is better to be killed than to shake a woman's hand.

I don't want to hear that these exponentially lesser aveiros are begeder the "Big Three." Fire-and-Brimstone turns off many people, even those commited to strict observance of Halacha.

I am not minimizing the 3 aveirus, I'm saying (& that's what the chazon ish, brisk ruv satmar ruv etc etc said) that for women to serve, IT IS the 3 big ones. Avoida Zora-shel tziyoines Adultry-the shmutzikste military in the whole world! no need to explain. Shfichas Domem-thats their job, to kill!
To the person saying abt mamzeirim, remember this: shlomo goren, the first chief raaa-bi, as we all know, had no problem with manzeirem. Google it.

21

 Jul 02, 2009 at 11:59 AM Anonymous Says:

fore all those kabblalh lovers look at the zohar parshas vayakhail what it written about this inyan on the possuk vayahail pikuday

22

 Jul 02, 2009 at 12:16 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #20  
shlemiel Says:

I am not minimizing the 3 aveirus, I'm saying (& that's what the chazon ish, brisk ruv satmar ruv etc etc said) that for women to serve, IT IS the 3 big ones. Avoida Zora-shel tziyoines Adultry-the shmutzikste military in the whole world! no need to explain. Shfichas Domem-thats their job, to kill!
To the person saying abt mamzeirim, remember this: shlomo goren, the first chief raaa-bi, as we all know, had no problem with manzeirem. Google it.

you are a hypocrite. goren's whole thing with the mamzeirim was that their mother's first husband's conversion was no good b/c he didn't keep torah u'mitzvos, ergo they were never married so she wasn't an eishes ish. the gedolim of the time disagreed, and said his conversion was good, which is funny because today they would never accept such a conversion. i imagine you are at the front of line calling for conversions to be overturned left and right; you can't have it both ways buddy.
also, where do you get that this military is the worst? do you know what goes in in the american military? the tzahal is the only military in the world that drops pamphlets into neighborhoods telling everyone to run, at the cost of also losing the terrorists they are after. tzahal has the lowest rate of raping and pillaging of any army in the world. and since when is is shfichus damim to kill people who are trying to kill you? yes they have their problems, and there is a reason why our rabbonim say that women may not enlist, but this has nothing to do with zionism or politics, and it's not because tzahal is such a bastion of immorality. women would not be permitted to join any army.

23

 Jul 02, 2009 at 12:14 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #15  
Anonymous Says:

For Gd's sake, can we please knock off the c*** of calling each other non-frum???

What makes you think that commenter #1 IS frum?

24

 Jul 02, 2009 at 12:17 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #14  
Anonymous Says:

#7, #9 and #11 all raised the same issue, namely, who are the rabbonim who #1 mentioned.

Why couldn't #7 and #11 write politely?

Forget charaidim slipping into Talibanism. We seem to be slipping into Milhouse-ism.

Why should we be polite to commenter #1? Did he write politely about R Ronsky? He may well be our old friend Mr "gadolim", who is not a frum Jew at all.

25

 Jul 02, 2009 at 12:18 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #17  
Anonymous Says:

I didn't say rabbonim have said it is permitted to serve in Combat...I was referring to the decisions of the rabbis in prior governments going back to the creation of the medinah who have said women may serve in non-combat support roles. I don't know any rabbi (or government official for that matter) who advocates women in combat.

And which rabbis were those? Name some.

26

 Jul 02, 2009 at 12:55 PM Harav Shcch Hu Tzodaik Says:

Reply to #24  
Milhouse Says:

Why should we be polite to commenter #1? Did he write politely about R Ronsky? He may well be our old friend Mr "gadolim", who is not a frum Jew at all.

As always, Milhouse cannot stand the idea of polite conversation, nor the attempt by anyone to raise the level of conversation out of the gutter.

Just because you feel comfortable there doesn't mean the rest of us should suffer.

27

 Jul 02, 2009 at 12:49 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #19  
Anonymous Says:

Thank you for that clarification.

It appears based on my reading of the third-hand reports in the media, his main issue seems to be with women serving in combat and other units in which the proper level of tzni'ut cannot be maintained.

I hope you will forgive my pointing out that you verbal attack on Rabbi Ronski served no purpose, unless your purpose was to create an enviornment in which nothing improves because neither side will even listen to what the other has to say.

As Milhouse does to anyone to his left, you have de-ordained Rabbi Ronski and de-ligitemized his position because it differs from yours.

Klal Yisrael needs constructive and respectful debate and even criticism, not further machlokes cloaked in the appearance of our being upset for kavod shomayim.

I do NOT "de-ordain" and "de-ligitemize" anyone to my left. That is a blatant lie.

28

 Jul 02, 2009 at 12:48 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #10  
FVNMS Says:

When making a statement like yours please bear in mind that you are diluting the severity of Avoda Zara, Shfichas Damim and Giluy Arayos.

I had a rebbe in yeshiva who said the same thing about eating turkey on Thanksgiving Day. Some groisse chuchem passed out pamphlets stating (in reference to the business arena) it is better to be killed than to shake a woman's hand.

I don't want to hear that these exponentially lesser aveiros are begeder the "Big Three." Fire-and-Brimstone turns off many people, even those commited to strict observance of Halacha.

The gedolei hatorah of the 1950s, such as the Chazon Ish, R Tzvi Pesach Frank, R Isser Zalman Meltzer, R Yaacov Charlap, and even R Aizik Herzog, who was Chief Rabbi of Israel at the time! all said that female conscription is "yehareg ve'al ya'avor". (This proclamation was about forcible conscription; the issue of voluntary service was not raised at the time. Later, in the early '70s, the Steipler wrote that the same applied even to voluntary service in Sherut Le'umi! But not all rabbonim agree to that extension, and many do support Sherut Le'umi so long as it's voluntary.)

29

 Jul 02, 2009 at 01:00 PM Harav Shcch Hu Tzodaik Says:

Reply to #23  
Milhouse Says:

What makes you think that commenter #1 IS frum?

Every Yid has a chezkas kashrus unless and until he does something to lose it.

You know, for someone who runs to defend the honor of the Lubavitcher Rebbe a"h from the slightest perceived slight you sure don't follow in his ways of valueing every Yid and drawing them closer to Torah u'Mitzvos thru Darchai Shalom.

Are you sure you are frum?

30

 Jul 02, 2009 at 01:49 PM tzoorba Says:

Reply to #29  
Harav Shcch Hu Tzodaik Says:

Every Yid has a chezkas kashrus unless and until he does something to lose it.

You know, for someone who runs to defend the honor of the Lubavitcher Rebbe a"h from the slightest perceived slight you sure don't follow in his ways of valueing every Yid and drawing them closer to Torah u'Mitzvos thru Darchai Shalom.

Are you sure you are frum?

Number 1's slanderous smearing of rabbonim and sanctimonious avowal of non Torah opinions without any source cause him to deserve to be vigorously refuted.

31

 Jul 02, 2009 at 01:45 PM moish Says:

Reply to #20  
shlemiel Says:

I am not minimizing the 3 aveirus, I'm saying (& that's what the chazon ish, brisk ruv satmar ruv etc etc said) that for women to serve, IT IS the 3 big ones. Avoida Zora-shel tziyoines Adultry-the shmutzikste military in the whole world! no need to explain. Shfichas Domem-thats their job, to kill!
To the person saying abt mamzeirim, remember this: shlomo goren, the first chief raaa-bi, as we all know, had no problem with manzeirem. Google it.

Let me clarify the Chazon Ish's opinion. He held that a woman donning military uniform is avizraihu d'gilui aroyos, and he followed the opinion of the Gro that avizraihu is also yehoreg ve'al yaavor. Not everyone agrees with this, but everyone agrees it is ossur.

32

 Jul 02, 2009 at 01:44 PM tzoorba Says:

Reply to #28  
Milhouse Says:

The gedolei hatorah of the 1950s, such as the Chazon Ish, R Tzvi Pesach Frank, R Isser Zalman Meltzer, R Yaacov Charlap, and even R Aizik Herzog, who was Chief Rabbi of Israel at the time! all said that female conscription is "yehareg ve'al ya'avor". (This proclamation was about forcible conscription; the issue of voluntary service was not raised at the time. Later, in the early '70s, the Steipler wrote that the same applied even to voluntary service in Sherut Le'umi! But not all rabbonim agree to that extension, and many do support Sherut Le'umi so long as it's voluntary.)

This is all true and you can add to this the Brisker Rov z"l.

Kal vechomer that being in the army itself is prohibited.

33

 Jul 02, 2009 at 01:42 PM David Says:

Israel does not (and, I think, should not) put women in combat. But there is ample room for them to serve; moreover, that women should serve has long been the policy of the Israeli army. A rabbi who chooses to put on the uniform does have some obligation to either support the policy (at least publicly) or remove the uniform. In any case, misogyny is really not a necessary feature of Judaism.

34

 Jul 02, 2009 at 02:27 PM moish Says:

Reply to #31  
moish Says:

Let me clarify the Chazon Ish's opinion. He held that a woman donning military uniform is avizraihu d'gilui aroyos, and he followed the opinion of the Gro that avizraihu is also yehoreg ve'al yaavor. Not everyone agrees with this, but everyone agrees it is ossur.

correction: I was getting mixed up for a minute between avizraihu and tikroves a"z. Everyone holds avizrayhu is yehoreg ve'al ya'avor.

35

 Jul 02, 2009 at 03:41 PM Anonymous Says:

"women should not serve in the army"

this is old news. not only do the charedi rabbonim agree, but the mizrachi rabbonim have mostly agreed to this as well. some gedolei yisroel even pasken a girl who served in the army is no longer b'cheskas besula and loses her right to 200 zuz on her kesubah.

36

 Jul 02, 2009 at 04:12 PM robert Says:

This is all wonderful..I think that they should stop allowing women serve in the army on the proviso that all of us here go there and serve...mr millhouse are you ready to wear a uniform and carry a gun and train for war (moses went to war with his sons remember) with your children if they are of age? If you cant walk the walk dont talk the talk (VIN people are all great talkers)

37

 Jul 02, 2009 at 04:20 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #29  
Harav Shcch Hu Tzodaik Says:

Every Yid has a chezkas kashrus unless and until he does something to lose it.

You know, for someone who runs to defend the honor of the Lubavitcher Rebbe a"h from the slightest perceived slight you sure don't follow in his ways of valueing every Yid and drawing them closer to Torah u'Mitzvos thru Darchai Shalom.

Are you sure you are frum?

First establish that he is a yid. An anonymous poster here has no chazokoh at all. Comment #1 exhibits some, but not all, of the stylistic tells of a long-time commenter here, whom I call Mr "gadolim", who is definitely not an orthodox Jew, and may well not be halachically Jewish at all.

38

 Jul 02, 2009 at 04:22 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #32  
tzoorba Says:

This is all true and you can add to this the Brisker Rov z"l.

Kal vechomer that being in the army itself is prohibited.

But it is not clear that this applies to those who volunteer. All the piskei din of the time were against forcible conscription, and the Chazon Ish's letters focus on that aspect. It COULD be that if a woman feels that she can volunteer for a non-combat role in the army, and keep up her standards, she is allowed. But I am not aware of ANY posek who has ruled this way. I merely raise it as a theoretical possibility.

39

 Jul 02, 2009 at 04:18 PM Shmuel Says:

Reply to #35  
Anonymous Says:

"women should not serve in the army"

this is old news. not only do the charedi rabbonim agree, but the mizrachi rabbonim have mostly agreed to this as well. some gedolei yisroel even pasken a girl who served in the army is no longer b'cheskas besula and loses her right to 200 zuz on her kesubah.

here we go with 200 zuz again...what does that really mean today? its is time for the rabbis to update that rabbinic mandate to the something useful..after all it is supposed to protect women....
also be careful where you tread on virginity issues many girls leave their homes for religious seminaries abroad to study torah..there are some people who might question that activity if a girl leaves her fathers home...we need unity in the jewish nation not petty differences...

40

 Jul 02, 2009 at 02:57 PM shloimy Says:

Reply to #13  
reb lazer hakuten Says:

At The time of the establishment of the Medineh shel gehennom. The Gedolim of the time (brisker Rov, Chazon Ish and others) were all against Civilian National service. ( sherut Leumi)

narishkiet you don't know what your saying you probably never even learned the brisker rov

41

 Jul 02, 2009 at 04:35 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #33  
David Says:

Israel does not (and, I think, should not) put women in combat. But there is ample room for them to serve; moreover, that women should serve has long been the policy of the Israeli army. A rabbi who chooses to put on the uniform does have some obligation to either support the policy (at least publicly) or remove the uniform. In any case, misogyny is really not a necessary feature of Judaism.

Just to clarify something: "yehoreg ve'al ya'avor" is not always meant as a psak din. There is a technical halachic definition of YVY, and someone who has a practical shayla in this matter needs to ask a rov, who must pasken what he must do in this particular case. But there is a broader definition, based on "gefihl" rather than strict halacha. One can CALL something YVY, even if as a matter of dry halacha it is not.

The Chazon Ish did not PASKEN that giyus bonos is YVY. He wrote it as a matter of gefihl, but also mentioned by the way that it MIGHT even be YVY as a matter of halacha. If a practical shayla ever came to him, we can't know how he would pasken.

42

 Jul 02, 2009 at 04:25 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #33  
David Says:

Israel does not (and, I think, should not) put women in combat. But there is ample room for them to serve; moreover, that women should serve has long been the policy of the Israeli army. A rabbi who chooses to put on the uniform does have some obligation to either support the policy (at least publicly) or remove the uniform. In any case, misogyny is really not a necessary feature of Judaism.

A military rabbi must support the views of the Torah, regardless of what the army's policies may be. (So must any Jew, but it is specifically the military rabbi's job to rule on halachic questions that come up in the course of military service. He has no right to falsify or shade his opinion to please the brass, any more than a JAG may do the same to his legal opinion.)

43

 Jul 02, 2009 at 04:41 PM Shmuel Says:

Reply to #13  
reb lazer hakuten Says:

At The time of the establishment of the Medineh shel gehennom. The Gedolim of the time (brisker Rov, Chazon Ish and others) were all against Civilian National service. ( sherut Leumi)

name calling is not appropriate here... in our sysnagogue we pray for the safety of the state of israel and refer to it as "Resheet tsimichat geulatainu" we do not use negative and pejorative terms to describe the jewish state..i dont beleive any of the great rabbis you cite would condone such language let alone agree with it...we need ahavat yisrael and unity not devisiveness..

44

 Jul 02, 2009 at 04:48 PM harav shach tzodaik Says:

Reply to #36  
robert Says:

This is all wonderful..I think that they should stop allowing women serve in the army on the proviso that all of us here go there and serve...mr millhouse are you ready to wear a uniform and carry a gun and train for war (moses went to war with his sons remember) with your children if they are of age? If you cant walk the walk dont talk the talk (VIN people are all great talkers)

Sorry, Millhouse has to stay in the safety of Monsey to advise the Israeli gov't into which battles they should throw other people's children.

If he were c"v to get a boo boo on his henteloch firing a weapon how would he type out all his priceless advice?

The IDF would be lost without his orders sent to them by posting to VIN.

45

 Jul 02, 2009 at 05:59 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #44  
harav shach tzodaik Says:

Sorry, Millhouse has to stay in the safety of Monsey to advise the Israeli gov't into which battles they should throw other people's children.

If he were c"v to get a boo boo on his henteloch firing a weapon how would he type out all his priceless advice?

The IDF would be lost without his orders sent to them by posting to VIN.

Most of us have learned to simply ignore Millhouse...He pretends to be a frumme yid and quotes extensively on every issue from unknown sources, but if you reply to him it only encourages him to post more so just ingnore his comments.

46

 Jul 02, 2009 at 06:32 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #14  
Anonymous Says:

#7, #9 and #11 all raised the same issue, namely, who are the rabbonim who #1 mentioned.

Why couldn't #7 and #11 write politely?

Forget charaidim slipping into Talibanism. We seem to be slipping into Milhouse-ism.

Very well said

No Milli we are not one and the same

47

 Jul 02, 2009 at 07:06 PM tzoorba Says:

Reply to #38  
Milhouse Says:

But it is not clear that this applies to those who volunteer. All the piskei din of the time were against forcible conscription, and the Chazon Ish's letters focus on that aspect. It COULD be that if a woman feels that she can volunteer for a non-combat role in the army, and keep up her standards, she is allowed. But I am not aware of ANY posek who has ruled this way. I merely raise it as a theoretical possibility.

I have heard that the Chazon Ish held that the only proper reshuyos for a woman are with her father or with her husband and anything else is a pirtza. The reshus of sherut leumi is a violation of this.

Serving in the morally loose army would therefore be much worse and it has nothing to do with voluntary or not.

48

 Jul 02, 2009 at 11:19 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #46  
Anonymous Says:

Very well said

No Milli we are not one and the same

And why should anyone believe you?

49

 Jul 02, 2009 at 11:18 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #45  
Anonymous Says:

Most of us have learned to simply ignore Millhouse...He pretends to be a frumme yid and quotes extensively on every issue from unknown sources, but if you reply to him it only encourages him to post more so just ingnore his comments.

Unknown only to amei hooretz like you

50

 Jul 02, 2009 at 11:18 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #44  
harav shach tzodaik Says:

Sorry, Millhouse has to stay in the safety of Monsey to advise the Israeli gov't into which battles they should throw other people's children.

If he were c"v to get a boo boo on his henteloch firing a weapon how would he type out all his priceless advice?

The IDF would be lost without his orders sent to them by posting to VIN.

What a moron. What is your obsession with Monsey?

51

 Jul 03, 2009 at 12:40 AM me Says:

Reply to #16  
Shmuel Says:

perhaps if all the men including chardei yeshiva boys served in the military there would be no need for women to serve...think of what a mitzva they could be part of in freeing young jewish women from conscription..(religious women can already opt out if they so choose)..

Perhaps if Chilonim studied Torah we wouldn't need an army just like in the times of Chezkiyahu Hamelech? or has your G-d become old and feeble with the passage of time and he couldn't pull it off again?

52

 Jul 05, 2009 at 12:51 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #36  
robert Says:

This is all wonderful..I think that they should stop allowing women serve in the army on the proviso that all of us here go there and serve...mr millhouse are you ready to wear a uniform and carry a gun and train for war (moses went to war with his sons remember) with your children if they are of age? If you cant walk the walk dont talk the talk (VIN people are all great talkers)

When did Moshe or his sons ever go to war, moron?

53

 Jul 05, 2009 at 02:39 PM berel Says:

#47 that exactly but bnot only chazon eish....but its a pashute zach....

54

 Jul 05, 2009 at 05:15 PM Robert Says:

Reply to #52  
Milhouse Says:

When did Moshe or his sons ever go to war, moron?

moses led the children of israel in battle/war against the amalekites..in fact as he raised his hands the children of israel were victorious hence the need to keep his hands extended (they were heavy) until the battle was over and victory ours..

by the way do you know the definition of a moron?

55

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