“ Are you implying that our Gedolim don't know what is going on, at these Hafgonos? Would they ever even consider giving a P'sak, without carefully studying the facts? We regular people have to talk to them, to tell them the facts?
Remember, they are the Gedolim and they carefully study the facts and they lead us with their wisdom. ”

“ Do you really think that rav eliyashiv has no clue that there is violence at hafganos in yerushalayim? Come on. Get real. Rav eliyashiv knew that there were violence at hafganos in yerushalayim even before horowitz had a web site. Heck. Before there was internet at all.when rav Eliyashiv said to go to a hafgana he knew that it would end with some bored instigators starting up with the cops (or bored cops starting up with the yound demonstrators.) He apparently felt that despite the fact that a fringe group of 100 kids out of thirty thousand chareidim would get riled up the benefit of showing barkat that we won't sit by while he breaks the status quo was the right thing to do ”

“ Are you implying that our Gedolim don't know what is going on, at these Hafgonos? Would they ever even consider giving a P'sak, without carefully studying the facts? We regular people have to talk to them, to tell them the facts?
Remember, they are the Gedolim and they carefully study the facts and they lead us with their wisdom. ”

“ Are you implying that our Gedolim don't know what is going on, at these Hafgonos? Would they ever even consider giving a P'sak, without carefully studying the facts? We regular people have to talk to them, to tell them the facts?
Remember, they are the Gedolim and they carefully study the facts and they lead us with their wisdom. ”

“ Look, many young Gedolei Yisroel have been misled, so a Godol his age sure could. He learns all day and Hafganess don’t occupy his mind. It’s enough to tell him that a certain Godol has called for it and he’ll sign his name too. ”

“ The Torah says we stone people to death for violating the Shabbos. Your Americanized view of the world has clouded your perspective. Judaism does, in some cases, demand extremism and though I don't like it I have to live with it. ”

“ Dear Amazed (#9),

The Gedolim backed Rav Horowitz many times. Stop picking on our tzaddikim. You did it to Rav Twersky - and just cut it out already.. ”

“ Thanks to R' Horowitz & Rav Hoffman! And to VIN for further publicizing their writings. And to #2: Do you honestly think Rav Elyashiv reads newspapers? That he spends his time watching what's going on in the streets? I'd guess that he does neither and that most of the other Gedolim don't either. So yes, to an extent they do need to rely upon others to present them with "facts". And they carefully study the "facts" they are given. But as Rav Horowitz & Rav Hoffman point out, the "facts" aren't always facts. And even when they are, 3/4 of the story is sometimes deliberately omitted. ”

“ 99.9% of the demnstraters acted in a refined, peaceful manner. It was a true kiddush Hashem. I should know. I was there, unlike Hoffman and Horowitz. By dwelling on the .1% who got a little too boisterous, they are playing right into the hands of the anti-semotes. SHAME ON HOROWITZ!
The police, on the other hand, were brutal monsters. Hitting, beating and arresting with no chershbon whatsoever besideshate and violence. That is the true crime that should be spoken out against. No Brave writer has had the guts to do it. Horowitz is not brave he is a carear panderer, making a living from looking for the bad in "those ugly Jews" ”

“ I hate to say this but as far as I can remember the Charedim where not able to achieve anything (i.e. closing streets on Shabbos, Giyus Banos,busses on shabbos etc.) without violence. It is unfortunate but I think the Charedim are dealing with a people who don't understand another languagepeople ”

“ By your definition, "Gedloei Yisroel" includes just about any young rav who can attract a minyan to his shtibel. In times past, a "Gadol" was not an "entry level" position in yiddeshkeit and was earned through scholarhship, character and leadership. I'm sorry but if you tell me some "young Gadol" will sign his name to any pashkeviln without reading it just because some "older established Gadol" has signed it, you are proving my point about the devaluation of the currency with regard to whom we consider Gadolim. ”

“ The Torah says we stone people to death for violating the Shabbos. Your Americanized view of the world has clouded your perspective. Judaism does, in some cases, demand extremism and though I don't like it I have to live with it. ”

“ 99.9% of the demnstraters acted in a refined, peaceful manner. It was a true kiddush Hashem. I should know. I was there, unlike Hoffman and Horowitz. By dwelling on the .1% who got a little too boisterous, they are playing right into the hands of the anti-semotes. SHAME ON HOROWITZ!
The police, on the other hand, were brutal monsters. Hitting, beating and arresting with no chershbon whatsoever besideshate and violence. That is the true crime that should be spoken out against. No Brave writer has had the guts to do it. Horowitz is not brave he is a carear panderer, making a living from looking for the bad in "those ugly Jews" ”

“ And the gemara tells us this happened only once, regardless of what is on the books. What does that tell you? It tells you to NOT be extreme. ”

“ By your definition, "Gedloei Yisroel" includes just about any young rav who can attract a minyan to his shtibel. In times past, a "Gadol" was not an "entry level" position in yiddeshkeit and was earned through scholarhship, character and leadership. I'm sorry but if you tell me some "young Gadol" will sign his name to any pashkeviln without reading it just because some "older established Gadol" has signed it, you are proving my point about the devaluation of the currency with regard to whom we consider Gadolim. ”

“ You can go "stone" your schvuga but don't make believe that any legitimate torah scholar really believes that a death penalty is appropriate for someone who drives a car on shabbos...that would mean about 2/3 of yidden who are not shomer shabbos and drive to shul (or don't even go to shul) would be put to death. ”

“ These gedolim may have a chochmah here that isn't obvious. They may be preparing their people for mass disobedience against the regime for when the time is "ripe." They may be "training" their people on these "smaller" issues, helping them to be comfortable clashing with the authorities. It's very emotionally stressful to be on the front lines against battalions of police officers using riot control techniques; a person might also be physically injured, possibly severely. It's necessary for leaders to create an esprit de corps and the requisite emotional capacity for possibly sustaining injury. If and when these gedolim decide the time is ripe, these individuals will be prepared for the task their gedolim assign

We should assume this possibility is valid because the gedolim of today continue the tradition of the sages of the gemara, who we know were involved diplomacy, statesmanship, and military strategy and consultation. ”

“ And the choshuve gedolim of E.Y. know all of those blitzes and brainstorms, and they still order the hafgonot, so let those columnist rabbis write whatever they want, and the leading rabbonim in E.Y. will do whatever they they want and feel is important. ”

“ so your point is that a rav is only considered one who graduated english classes and cam write an editorial? am I getting it right? ”

“ Who anointed rabbi horwitz as the spokesman for all of judaism. He lives in america has no clue of the underpinnings of the yerushalyim community. Let him mind his own buisiness and let the real leaders of klal yisrael (the ones that sit and learn all day and don't write internet articles) lead klal yisrael. It's easy to sit back in your arm chair in front of your computer and decide what is best for klal yisroel. No achrayus no tough decisions. Making klal decisions are complex and take someone who can work through all the ramifications long term. If rav eliyashiv isn't capable to make these decisions then horwitz certainly cant ”

“ Many commenters here seem to grasp something while others don’t. Our gedolim are just that. Great Talmidei chachomim whose Torah guidance is the beacon that we need to pilot our way through this dark galus. However, it is not kefira to state that we cannot rely on our chachomim to guide us through ruach hakodesh. If any of them have some additional sense that makes them privy to information that is not otherwise in our grasp, that may be a great advantage. But it borders on kefira to rely on this when presenting them with a shailoh. One must present shailos for psak halacha and for advice too gedolim with all the details available. If the response seems to emanate from another dimension, so be it. Poskim who respond to medical shailos must be given the understanding of the entire medical matter, not just whether the doctor says to perform surgery or not. The same goes for the many areas of halacha and science. Information must be presented for the psak or hadracha to be worth anything.

When the tragedies of the past week are examined, one sees the blindness which was imposed on the gedolim. If asked about whether one could be violent, there is no doubt that the answer would have prohibited it totally. No one asked, and no gadol addressed the unasked shailos. The finger then turns to us and how we seek to use gedolim to meet our needs. Something is backwards – the tail wagging the dog – pardon the metaphor. We finally have two Rabbonim, Rav Horowitz and Rav Hoffman who are willing to tell it like it is. Yasher Kochachem.

And for those who feel that Rav Horowitz is mixing into issues in Eretz Yisroel, calm down. He is speaking to all of us, Americans and other non-Israelis. We all must look at the events that occurred, and we need to learn what was right and what was wrong. Sometimes similar issues happen in USA. There are lessons to learn on both sides of the ocean.

As far as the choices of articles on VIN, all the ones suggested appear frequently. There have been articles on gambling, internet addiction, tznius, smoking, etc. Within the past month. VIN carries articles and editorials on news items, and this article certainly qualifies.
”

“ Who anointed rabbi horwitz as the spokesman for all of judaism. He lives in america has no clue of the underpinnings of the yerushalyim community. Let him mind his own buisiness and let the real leaders of klal yisrael (the ones that sit and learn all day and don't write internet articles) lead klal yisrael. It's easy to sit back in your arm chair in front of your computer and decide what is best for klal yisroel. No achrayus no tough decisions. Making klal decisions are complex and take someone who can work through all the ramifications long term. If rav eliyashiv isn't capable to make these decisions then horwitz certainly cant ”

“ were was Rabbi Horowitz when PM Rabin was killed? wasent that a act like the muslems? ”

“ מי שרואה חילול שבת וליבו אינו כואב וצועק בידוע שלא עמדו רגלי אבותיו על הר סיני ”

“ rabbi horowits is correct,

but for the american bocurim who were walking back from the koseel motoei shabbos and were grabbed by the police and accused of throwing a stone when they didnt, or being phyiscally abused by the police officers who just dont put restraints, they even punch them. Where is the justification of the system, the judge wont let them out on bail for another two weeks and in some cases they are deporting the bocuhrim as a plea bargin. The american bochurim in jail are denying they threw a rocks and witeneses have come forth to say that htey were not involved. In one case the bochur had to use self defence because the police officer was beating him. Some of the police officers were undercover and just garbbed anyone in the area even though the bochurim deny they were involved they were arrested. Askanim in israel has never seen such harshness and coldness from the police.

in israel its your guilty until you confess. ”

“ 99.9% of the demnstraters acted in a refined, peaceful manner. It was a true kiddush Hashem. I should know. I was there, unlike Hoffman and Horowitz. By dwelling on the .1% who got a little too boisterous, they are playing right into the hands of the anti-semotes. SHAME ON HOROWITZ!
The police, on the other hand, were brutal monsters. Hitting, beating and arresting with no chershbon whatsoever besideshate and violence. That is the true crime that should be spoken out against. No Brave writer has had the guts to do it. Horowitz is not brave he is a carear panderer, making a living from looking for the bad in "those ugly Jews" ”

“ Look, many young Gedolei Yisroel have been misled, so a Godol his age sure could. He learns all day and Hafganess don’t occupy his mind. It’s enough to tell him that a certain Godol has called for it and he’ll sign his name too. ”

“ You can go "stone" your schvuga but don't make believe that any legitimate torah scholar really believes that a death penalty is appropriate for someone who drives a car on shabbos...that would mean about 2/3 of yidden who are not shomer shabbos and drive to shul (or don't even go to shul) would be put to death. ”

“ This is exactly what we wrote for the last two week and some of you jumped on us like we love Chlil Shabbat, it is time to admit your mistake and support only peaceful demonstrations. ”

“ Why don't you just erase, or better yet rip out the possuk of stoning for chillul shabbos from the safer torah in your shul? Or maybe you believe in the new testament? ”

“ This is exactly what we wrote for the last two week and some of you jumped on us like we love Chlil Shabbat, it is time to admit your mistake and support only peaceful demonstrations. ”

“ I think we need to step back and reconsider who we consider "Gedolim". Such a designation is highly subjective and implies individuals who have distinguished themselves not only through their intellect on matters of torah and halacha but who have also demonstrated moral leadership and integrity that inspire yiddin to follow their guidance. In the context of these Hafgonot, those rabbonim who have blindly called for demonstrations while knowing that there is a high liklihood that a very small percentage of the participants will engage in violence may have relinquished their right to be considered Gedolim. Its not just who can demonstrate daas torah; leadership also implies taking responsibility and exercising common sense. DO all of those who continue to call for such demonstrations which lead to violence (notwithstanding their issuance of directives to the contrary) continue to warrant the designation as "Gedolim"?? ”

“ Anyone can put on a bekishe... the Beis Hamikdash was not destroyed because of people who were mechalel shabbos, definitly not Tinok shenishba. But the sinas chinam which these people are malei vegadush in (albeit in a lange levish) is far worse an aveira than the sins they are demonstrating against. The true chotim of klal yisroel today are not the ones who were raised in a non-frum environment, the true Chotim of our generation, are those who garb themselves in holiness, yet practice the worst of aveiros -- sina, and are mechalel shem shamayim berabim.
”

“ Who anointed rabbi horwitz as the spokesman for all of judaism. He lives in america has no clue of the underpinnings of the yerushalyim community. Let him mind his own buisiness and let the real leaders of klal yisrael (the ones that sit and learn all day and don't write internet articles) lead klal yisrael. It's easy to sit back in your arm chair in front of your computer and decide what is best for klal yisroel. No achrayus no tough decisions. Making klal decisions are complex and take someone who can work through all the ramifications long term. If rav eliyashiv isn't capable to make these decisions then horwitz certainly cant ”

“ You, my friend, are whay we are in galus. When a recognized Rabbi like R'Horowitz points out an obvious flaw you are quick to throw him away because you feel different. You obviously are an Am Ha'aretz Gamur! Because you must have "forgotten" the Torah that says "Hakol Kol Yakov..." our strength is through Tefilah NOT Violence!! We have no right to act like the goyim or terrorists for that matter. When someone,like R'Horowitz points out something you do not like, you castigate him. You are a piece of dirt and should bethrown in the darkest jail w/o a key! ”