Penndel, PA - Jewish Boy, 2, Dies After Being Left in Hot Minivan |
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A woman walks into Fairy Tales Day Care Thursday in Penndel, Pa. Police say a day care co-owner discovered the body of a 2-year-old child insider her minivan on Wednesday. BILL FRASER/STAFF PHOTOGRAPHER Burlington County TimesPenndel, PA - A toddler left in a hot minivan outside his suburban Philadelphia day care center has died of hyperthermia.
Bucks County authorities say 2-year-old Daniel Slutsky was in a locked vehicle with the windows up for six hours Wednesday, when temperatures were in the 80s.
Coroner Joseph Campbell says Daniel had been driven to the center in Penndel (PEN’-dul) by a neighbor who operates it. Campbell says Rimma Shvartsman forgot about Daniel and returned in the late afternoon to find him unresponsive.
Campbell has ruled the boy’s death because of an elevated body temperature an accident.
District Attorney Michelle Henry says no charges have been filed and an investigation continues.
Shvartsman’s lawyer, Michael Mustokoff, says the boy’s death is a “tragic accident” and his client is cooperating with the investigation.
According to the Philadelphia Inquirer
Today, the neighbors’ cul-de-sac of tidy townhomes was a portrait of sorrow. Shvartsman’s residence was dark and silent, while a stream of mourners came and went at the Slutskys’ home, where the family was sitting shiva.
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1
Jul 02, 2009 at 07:19 PM Confused Says:Report as Inappropriate
I find this story very hard to believe. Somebody whose job involves being responsible for children on a daily basis, forgets about a child in her own car. Hamokom Yenachem the parents and the family.
2
Jul 02, 2009 at 07:12 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
I can understand leaving the groceries in the back of a car or forgetting to bring in your briefcase from work but a child??
3
Jul 02, 2009 at 07:10 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
B'DE horrible tragedy....
4
Jul 02, 2009 at 07:09 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
Hate to say it, and please be gentle with me for saying it. Just think about it. The kid was probably belted in a car seat. The woman would not have forgotten about the kid if he was just in a regular seat belt. For years we had our kids in regular seat belts and it was fine. I am convinced that car seats are responsible for a lot of these deaths. There are no statistics comparing seat belts versus car seats.. but let's think about it....
5
Jul 02, 2009 at 07:25 PM Baruch Dayan Emet Says:Report as Inappropriate
Horrible tradegy!!
6
Jul 02, 2009 at 07:43 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
This happened in lakewood many yrs ago...it could happen to anyone. R"l
7
Jul 02, 2009 at 07:42 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I find this story very hard to believe. Somebody whose job involves being responsible for children on a daily basis, forgets about a child in her own car. Hamokom Yenachem the parents and the family. ”
When Hashem wants a person to forget, they forget. Burach Dayen Huemes.
May Hashem bring Moshiach and end all sorrow now.
8
Jul 02, 2009 at 07:41 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
That's just horrible. To the authors of comments 1 and 2, your comments are extremely thoughtless. If the child fell asleep and she did not regularly take him with her, I can see how this happened. I imagine she is suffering as much as the family who lost the child. This is tragic for all involved.
9
Jul 02, 2009 at 07:40 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
I'm not suggesting but i do hope she has the sense for the best in her interest to resign from her post and do some job other than having a responsibility on kids.
10
Jul 02, 2009 at 07:37 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Hate to say it, and please be gentle with me for saying it. Just think about it. The kid was probably belted in a car seat. The woman would not have forgotten about the kid if he was just in a regular seat belt. For years we had our kids in regular seat belts and it was fine. I am convinced that car seats are responsible for a lot of these deaths. There are no statistics comparing seat belts versus car seats.. but let's think about it.... ”
I dont see nor understand the correlation between car seats and forgetting your kid in the car please explain as we are all in the dark....
11
Jul 02, 2009 at 07:37 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
Daven ! Daven to Hashem with all your might, that you never ever forget a child in a car. The word here is 'forget'., and only our father in heaven.has the ability to make sure you and i NEVER forget.
12
Jul 02, 2009 at 08:44 PM love to say it Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Hate to say it, and please be gentle with me for saying it. Just think about it. The kid was probably belted in a car seat. The woman would not have forgotten about the kid if he was just in a regular seat belt. For years we had our kids in regular seat belts and it was fine. I am convinced that car seats are responsible for a lot of these deaths. There are no statistics comparing seat belts versus car seats.. but let's think about it.... ”
your an idiot. seatbelts are designed for bigger bodies and not toddlers or babies. what does a carseat have to do with leaving a child in a car? if you are suggesting we should place our children in the front passenger seat your brain is severely depleted of common sense because airbags can and have and do kill babies in the front seat. there is a reason for car seats: they save lives. there are people whose sole job is to ensure the safety of babies and toddlers in cars and they know what their doing and you dont. keep your factless, baseless, useless, senseless, sickening opinion to yourself next time.
13
Jul 02, 2009 at 08:43 PM psychologist Says:Report as Inappropriate
Comments 1 & 2 are grossly naïve and show little understanding of human psychology. People make mistakes. This is a horrible, horrible accident that nobody should ever go through.
14
Jul 02, 2009 at 08:41 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Hate to say it, and please be gentle with me for saying it. Just think about it. The kid was probably belted in a car seat. The woman would not have forgotten about the kid if he was just in a regular seat belt. For years we had our kids in regular seat belts and it was fine. I am convinced that car seats are responsible for a lot of these deaths. There are no statistics comparing seat belts versus car seats.. but let's think about it.... ”
Okay, so according to your logic, the car seat killed the child? Car seats are designed to protect the lives of tiny passengers < 60 lbs. and the evidence is they do save lives. Madam, this is a NEGLIGENCE INVESTIGATION about a woman who is a professional babysitter who left a helpless toddler strapped into a car for 6 hours where he was subjected to severely hot temperatures and died. How in the name of Sam Hill can the car seat be held responsible for killing that boy?
15
Jul 02, 2009 at 08:40 PM heshy Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Hate to say it, and please be gentle with me for saying it. Just think about it. The kid was probably belted in a car seat. The woman would not have forgotten about the kid if he was just in a regular seat belt. For years we had our kids in regular seat belts and it was fine. I am convinced that car seats are responsible for a lot of these deaths. There are no statistics comparing seat belts versus car seats.. but let's think about it.... ”
Brilliant; Maybe 15 to 25 children die in this type of tragedy, but car seats probably save hundreds a year, not to mention thousands from serious, crippling injuries.
16
Jul 02, 2009 at 08:49 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
My sister nearly died in a car almost 18 years ago. We were in the country and when we arrived to the bungalow colony there was a fight among the kids - who would be first. We had visitors and assumed that my sister had gone to play with the kids. A little while later someone came to inquire where she is and we answered that she's playing with the kids. A few minutes passed and he again asked where she is. At this point I was sent to go look for her. I didn't find her playing with the kids so i retraced my steps. I found her in the car crying, her body hot and red.
She was placed in a bathtub with cold water - note: not too cold and definitely not freezing as this can shock the body. BH we caught her in the nick of time. Had this person not persisted CV the ending would have been the same as the story above. Hashem sent him as a shliuch to save her.
The most common causes of why a child is left in a car is:
1) Children fighting about getting out first, ultimately someone stays behind.
2) There are a few kids in the car and one of them fell asleep
3) Not the usual parent or guardian dropping the kid off at the babysitter or school.
Solutions for those that usually don't have kids in the car:
1) Have a baby bag up front so you see it and it reminds you of the kid in the back.
2) Put something that you will need next to the kid exp. briefcase, hat, jacket...
Remember a car can very quickly heat up.
17
Jul 02, 2009 at 08:48 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ That's just horrible. To the authors of comments 1 and 2, your comments are extremely thoughtless. If the child fell asleep and she did not regularly take him with her, I can see how this happened. I imagine she is suffering as much as the family who lost the child. This is tragic for all involved. ”
You call the bloggers (people expressing an honest opinion) thoughtless, but the woman who left a helpless innocent creature to die a horrible death, she you don't call thoughtless. It clearly said in the article that the woman carpooled the child 3x per week and yet you make every excuse for her and don't call HER thoughtless, chas v'shalom! But the bloggers, people who don't go around leaving kids strapped in hot cars, they you call thoughtless. Lady, you are exactly what is WRONG with today's frum society. We have our values so out of alignment with reality that we are making ourselves look like fools, idiots and, in the worst cases, outright criminals, to society at large. So what if the child fell asleep, what does that change? Are you saying the child caused his own death by falling asleep? What child doesn't fall asleep in a car? And then you say, "I can see how this happened". Really? Are you in the habit of leaving your kids strapped in a hot car for 6 hours straight? You can really justify this level of negligence? And you call the bloggers insensitive and thoughtless? Who is really thoughtless here, Lady?
18
Jul 02, 2009 at 08:30 PM clever Says:Report as Inappropriate
what a terrible terrible tragedy.. hashem yishmur.. its unbelievable that ppl forget a child in car seat but being tht the survey shows 15/25 such deaths a yr looks like it is possible 2 forget.. any1 who puts a child in back seat in a car seat when no1 sits nxt 2 the child in back must make some kind of simen or what 2 make sure he takes the child out w/him.. & in these days its abt time a company should come out w/a car seat tht beeps & flashes if child is in it when u put the car & park so u remember 2 take the child!!!! vhashem yishmur tzeiseinee uvoieinee m'ateh v'ad oilem!!
19
Jul 02, 2009 at 08:17 PM Babishka Says:Report as Inappropriate
I shudder every time I hear one of these horrible stories. I thank Hashem that I raised nine kids, and even sent some of them to day care while I worked, and none of them were ever left in a hot car. In fact I never heard of a baby left in a hot car in the years when my kids were young. Why does it seem to happen so often now?
I even let my kids ride in the back of the station wagon without any restraints.
20
Jul 02, 2009 at 08:15 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
This was clearly negligence, and some would call it criminal negligence. There is simply no valid excuse for this--even if it has happened before, in other communities.
It may have been a gezeira from Shamayim, but b'dinei matah this person was negligent.
When one has a child in the back seat, it's a good idea to keep the windows open, just in case the electrical system goes. Talking to a child is also a good idea.
It's also a good idea to have a system wherein kids are counted at the day care system.
21
Jul 02, 2009 at 07:59 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
bd''e - just curious how thekid had an autopsy if he's jewish?
22
Jul 02, 2009 at 09:05 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
#4 may be right..
For many parents, the baby's car seat has long been a magical spot where even the fussiest infant would finally drift off to a peaceful slumber.
But a Quebec coroner who examined the sudden death of a two-month-old boy has issued a stark warning: Parents who leave their newborns semi-reclined in car seats for hours on end are putting them at higher risk of sudden death by asphyxiation.
Coroner Jacques Robinson published the warning yesterday in his report on a baby's death in a car seat one year ago at a family home in the Montreal suburb of Pointe-Claire.
The colicky baby's mother found the car seat was an effective way to get the boy to drift off, so she left him in it overnight, with the seat and baby placed in his bassinette. The mother rose at 3 a.m. to feed the baby and again at 6 a.m. when he started to cry.
When the boy did not wake at his usual 7 a.m. time, the mother discovered he wasn't breathing and had white, waxy skin. The boy's parents and emergency responders tried to resuscitate him without success.
“Car seats are named that for a reason. They're not for the house, they're not meant to replace a crib, and they're not meant to be left in a bassinette,” Dr. Robinson said in an interview.
Properly installed infant car seats are set at a precise angle, usually 45 degrees, to balance head support against safety in a collision.
But more than a couple of hours sitting at any angle is too much for a newborn, Dr. Robinson said.
“A baby sitting, or semi-sitting, even at an angle of 30 degrees, does not have the strength to keep his head straight, and it's easy for his airway to be blocked.”
Dr. Robinson emphasized that a car seat is still vital for transporting babies in vehicles but he said long trips should be broken up every couple of hours. Even babies need a break to stretch and change positions, he said.
“A couple hours is fine. Overnight is not fine,” Dr. Robinson said.
Researchers at the coroner's office went back 15 years analyzing babies who died from sudden infant death syndrome and found 15 to 20 deaths might have been triggered by sleeping sitting or semi-reclined.
Separate studies by Quebec and New Zealand researchers in 2006 analyzed deaths among babies under 12 months and found an increased likelihood of death in car seats.
The Quebec study examined unexplained deaths from 1991 to 2000. Ten of 409 unexplained deaths among children under 12 months occurred while the tots were in “sitting positions.” But the rate rose dramatically to five out of 49 among babies under one month old. Dr. Robinson acknowledged the numbers are small but he argued the deaths are easily preventable.
The warning about car seats adds to a growing list of warnings about potential causes of sudden infant death syndrome. Parents are now advised to avoid letting infants sleep on their stomachs, or in cribs crowded with soft objects. Sleeping in the same bed as adults or other children is another no-no.
23
Jul 02, 2009 at 09:20 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
In cases of suspicious deaths where other causes have to be eliminated, an autopsy can be required by law.
I urge everyone to do an online search and find that Washington Post series on the problem of kids being left in cars. It opened my eyes and filled me with compassion for the people, often parents of the child, to whom this has happened. And yes, it is happening more often, in part because of the legal requirements to move children and carseats to the back seat, and the way that infant carseats are positioned backward. I'm not saying that the answer is to do away with the rule, because they do save many lives. But people have to be extra careful to stay focused on any children they have in the car. There is talk of developing an alarm system that goes off if you seem to be leaving the vehicle and there is still a certain amount of weight in the child safety seat(s). This seems like a good idea.
Meanwhile, I will have the bereaved family as well as the neighbor/daycare worker in my prayers. This is a tragic loss for all of them and none of their lives will be the same.
24
Jul 02, 2009 at 09:04 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
Now adays when people run after things they don't need with money they don't have to please people they don't like. This was for sure an accident hashem yerachem.
25
Jul 02, 2009 at 07:55 PM confused Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I can understand leaving the groceries in the back of a car or forgetting to bring in your briefcase from work but a child?? ”
Are you trying to say that a two year old might be able to wriggle himself out of a regualr seatbelt and escape? Or that a grownup would notice a child in a regular seatbelt, but might not in a carseat - I don't follow. . .
26
Jul 02, 2009 at 07:52 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
How is that, the co-owner of the center, did not notice that the baby is missing during the whole day feeding, sleeping, changing diapers, does not make any sense
27
Jul 02, 2009 at 09:35 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
Please do not judge this poor mother, who will have to suffer the consequences of her mistake for the rest of her life. She did not do this on purpose. No doubt we've all done stupid things when we were really tired - thankfully none of us has had such a tragedy occur. Let's be grateful, not judgmental.
28
Jul 02, 2009 at 10:21 PM A Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Now adays when people run after things they don't need with money they don't have to please people they don't like. This was for sure an accident hashem yerachem. ”
What? Seriously, what are you talking about and how does what you're saying have any relevance to a baby being left in a car for hours? VIN has some of the strangest comments.
29
Jul 02, 2009 at 10:17 PM Milhouse Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Hate to say it, and please be gentle with me for saying it. Just think about it. The kid was probably belted in a car seat. The woman would not have forgotten about the kid if he was just in a regular seat belt. For years we had our kids in regular seat belts and it was fine. I am convinced that car seats are responsible for a lot of these deaths. There are no statistics comparing seat belts versus car seats.. but let's think about it.... ”
The problem is not the car seat itself but the new regulations that the car seat be in the back seat. When the child is in that position behind the driver, the driver can't see him and isn't interacting with him. It's even worse if the car seat is facing backwards, as is recommended. This makes it disturbingly easy for the child's presence to simply slip out of the driver's memory, and indeed the number of such cases has significantly increased since children were banished from the front seat (because of the danger from air bags, which are themselves mandated by law).
30
Jul 02, 2009 at 10:19 PM Milhouse Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ your an idiot. seatbelts are designed for bigger bodies and not toddlers or babies. what does a carseat have to do with leaving a child in a car? if you are suggesting we should place our children in the front passenger seat your brain is severely depleted of common sense because airbags can and have and do kill babies in the front seat. there is a reason for car seats: they save lives. there are people whose sole job is to ensure the safety of babies and toddlers in cars and they know what their doing and you dont. keep your factless, baseless, useless, senseless, sickening opinion to yourself next time. ”
The problem is that they DON'T know what they're doing. Relying on government "experts" and regulators to be omniscient is always a bad idea.
31
Jul 02, 2009 at 10:23 PM Milhouse Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ This was clearly negligence, and some would call it criminal negligence. There is simply no valid excuse for this--even if it has happened before, in other communities.
It may have been a gezeira from Shamayim, but b'dinei matah this person was negligent.
When one has a child in the back seat, it's a good idea to keep the windows open, just in case the electrical system goes. Talking to a child is also a good idea.
It's also a good idea to have a system wherein kids are counted at the day care system.
”
It is NOT negligence. It happens regularly, and it could happen to anyone, l"a. Human memory is fallible. Car seats definitely contribute to the risk, though.
32
Jul 02, 2009 at 10:24 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ You call the bloggers (people expressing an honest opinion) thoughtless, but the woman who left a helpless innocent creature to die a horrible death, she you don't call thoughtless. It clearly said in the article that the woman carpooled the child 3x per week and yet you make every excuse for her and don't call HER thoughtless, chas v'shalom! But the bloggers, people who don't go around leaving kids strapped in hot cars, they you call thoughtless. Lady, you are exactly what is WRONG with today's frum society. We have our values so out of alignment with reality that we are making ourselves look like fools, idiots and, in the worst cases, outright criminals, to society at large. So what if the child fell asleep, what does that change? Are you saying the child caused his own death by falling asleep? What child doesn't fall asleep in a car? And then you say, "I can see how this happened". Really? Are you in the habit of leaving your kids strapped in a hot car for 6 hours straight? You can really justify this level of negligence? And you call the bloggers insensitive and thoughtless? Who is really thoughtless here, Lady? ”
#8 is right. She forgot because it wasn't a set routine that she ALWAYS did. Secondly, even if it was the routine but since it wasn't daily it is very easy to forget. No, you can't blame her. It is very very sad! Hashem should comfort them!
33
Jul 02, 2009 at 10:24 PM boroparkyenta Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I find this story very hard to believe. Somebody whose job involves being responsible for children on a daily basis, forgets about a child in her own car. Hamokom Yenachem the parents and the family. ”
Nowadays these stories are unfortunately more common because we are all under lots of stress. We are all familiar with leaving all sorts of things all over the place. Leaving a cell phone behind in a store, forgetting what we need once we get to the store, etc. are all common occurrences.
We are forgetful because we have too much on our minds.
Years ago there were less cars, and less children going to day care at the age of 2 or under 2. Most people did not have cars 50 years ago. Even 30 years ago a car was still a luxury, not a necessity.
This is unfortunately a tragedy that could certainly happen to anyone. We need to hope and pray that it never happens to us, and to daven that Hashem should protect our children from all misfortunes.
When children grow up safely, we take that for granted. In reality, it is a miracle.
34
Jul 02, 2009 at 10:15 PM A Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ You call the bloggers (people expressing an honest opinion) thoughtless, but the woman who left a helpless innocent creature to die a horrible death, she you don't call thoughtless. It clearly said in the article that the woman carpooled the child 3x per week and yet you make every excuse for her and don't call HER thoughtless, chas v'shalom! But the bloggers, people who don't go around leaving kids strapped in hot cars, they you call thoughtless. Lady, you are exactly what is WRONG with today's frum society. We have our values so out of alignment with reality that we are making ourselves look like fools, idiots and, in the worst cases, outright criminals, to society at large. So what if the child fell asleep, what does that change? Are you saying the child caused his own death by falling asleep? What child doesn't fall asleep in a car? And then you say, "I can see how this happened". Really? Are you in the habit of leaving your kids strapped in a hot car for 6 hours straight? You can really justify this level of negligence? And you call the bloggers insensitive and thoughtless? Who is really thoughtless here, Lady? ”
Why are you calling poster #8 "Lady" when he or she has posted as 'anonymous' and doesn't reveal his/her sex in the text of his/her comment? Are you so misogynistic that you believe it can only be a woman who says something you so vociferously disagree with?
35
Jul 02, 2009 at 10:25 PM Milhouse Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ bd''e - just curious how thekid had an autopsy if he's jewish? ”
In such cases the parents have no choice; the coroner does an autopsy, and there's nothing you can do to stop it, except steal the body, which not everyone can do.
36
Jul 02, 2009 at 10:33 PM Milhouse Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ bd''e - just curious how thekid had an autopsy if he's jewish? ”
Everyone, please read this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/27/AR2009022701549.html?wpisrc=newsletter&sid=ST2009030602446
37
Jul 02, 2009 at 10:36 PM tzoorba Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Nowadays these stories are unfortunately more common because we are all under lots of stress. We are all familiar with leaving all sorts of things all over the place. Leaving a cell phone behind in a store, forgetting what we need once we get to the store, etc. are all common occurrences.
We are forgetful because we have too much on our minds.
Years ago there were less cars, and less children going to day care at the age of 2 or under 2. Most people did not have cars 50 years ago. Even 30 years ago a car was still a luxury, not a necessity.
This is unfortunately a tragedy that could certainly happen to anyone. We need to hope and pray that it never happens to us, and to daven that Hashem should protect our children from all misfortunes.
When children grow up safely, we take that for granted. In reality, it is a miracle. ”
This is totally the wrong approach. The woman who left the child in the car is a murderer beshogeg, unintentionally. She might actually be worse than that. It's negligence close to intentional harm.
In terms of your argument about forgetting things, would you forget to go out without a blouse? There are certain things that you never forget and should never forget.
The trend of forgiving and forgetting these things is teaching exactly the wrong lesson. Rabbi Avigdor Miller z"l used to comment about children who died from Chanuka candle fires that their parents were guilty of murder.
This a very severe crime and the entire Jewish population has to work on being as careful as possible and not excusing negligence in this case.
38
Jul 02, 2009 at 10:47 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I dont see nor understand the correlation between car seats and forgetting your kid in the car please explain as we are all in the dark.... ”
i diagree with his reasoning but what i think he is saying is that if the kid was just belted then he would be able to attract a passer by by banging on the widow or something but because he was in a car seat he wasnt able to
39
Jul 02, 2009 at 10:45 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ This happened in lakewood many yrs ago...it could happen to anyone. R"l ”
it wasnt once and it wasnt many years ago . try 2 years ago
40
Jul 02, 2009 at 10:44 PM Ahem Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I'm not suggesting but i do hope she has the sense for the best in her interest to resign from her post and do some job other than having a responsibility on kids. ”
Because you never make mistakes. Although this ended in a horrible tragedy.
41
Jul 02, 2009 at 10:43 PM tzoorba Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ You call the bloggers (people expressing an honest opinion) thoughtless, but the woman who left a helpless innocent creature to die a horrible death, she you don't call thoughtless. It clearly said in the article that the woman carpooled the child 3x per week and yet you make every excuse for her and don't call HER thoughtless, chas v'shalom! But the bloggers, people who don't go around leaving kids strapped in hot cars, they you call thoughtless. Lady, you are exactly what is WRONG with today's frum society. We have our values so out of alignment with reality that we are making ourselves look like fools, idiots and, in the worst cases, outright criminals, to society at large. So what if the child fell asleep, what does that change? Are you saying the child caused his own death by falling asleep? What child doesn't fall asleep in a car? And then you say, "I can see how this happened". Really? Are you in the habit of leaving your kids strapped in a hot car for 6 hours straight? You can really justify this level of negligence? And you call the bloggers insensitive and thoughtless? Who is really thoughtless here, Lady? ”
You are 100% correct.
Rabbi Avigdor Miller z"l always used to say that when there was a tragedy of a child burned in a Chanuka fire or a child that fell out of the window, it wasn't a strange punishment from heaven that happened to the poor parents. In most cases, it was their criminal negligence for letting the child get too close to the fire or for not putting bars on the window.
The Jewish world at large has to accept on itself the responsibility of always being aware of the safety of little children. Forgiving these people is sending exactly the wrong message.
In my neighborhood, I see 2 and 3 year old children unsupervised near traffic. There is no excuse for this or for forgetting about a child for hours on end.
42
Jul 03, 2009 at 06:39 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ The problem is not the car seat itself but the new regulations that the car seat be in the back seat. When the child is in that position behind the driver, the driver can't see him and isn't interacting with him. It's even worse if the car seat is facing backwards, as is recommended. This makes it disturbingly easy for the child's presence to simply slip out of the driver's memory, and indeed the number of such cases has significantly increased since children were banished from the front seat (because of the danger from air bags, which are themselves mandated by law). ”
two year olds sit facing forward not backwards. and if u think u might forget the child don't put the car seat behind the driver put it behind the passenger seat.
43
Jul 03, 2009 at 07:27 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
i think one of the most important post posted on this blog is #16. The poster explains how these terrible mistakes can happen. that is why it is called a "MISTAKE". Things happen in life by a terrible forgetfullness by the persons actions. But we all make mistakes. In our small minded brains, we tend to RATE our mistakes by our own logical thinking. but just perhaps, some of the mistakes that any of us have made, in the bigger picture of life are just as dramatic and of the same level of consenquence, even though we dont see it at that moment. What needs to be learnt from this is that we must keep our wits around us at all times, WITH ALL MATTERS. not just with our children. Although r'l this poor child was niftar, many of us make snide remarks about others, do illegal business etc. BY MISTAKE, and that too kills a person. Lets be careful not to malign this child carer, because ultimately, it could be any of us having made this terrible MISTAKE.
44
Jul 03, 2009 at 07:19 AM phoenix Says:Report as Inappropriate
I googeld "child safety devices for car seats" and found this website called "thingamababy" with the following article : "A Look at Three Child Car Heat Death Safety Devices". I think it is important to post this article for "voz is neias" readers so they can put these devices on the car seats of our precious children and alert their friends to do the same. Just talking about this and blaming people will not save lives. Action needs to be taken.
45
Jul 03, 2009 at 02:21 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Please do not judge this poor mother, who will have to suffer the consequences of her mistake for the rest of her life. She did not do this on purpose. No doubt we've all done stupid things when we were really tired - thankfully none of us has had such a tragedy occur. Let's be grateful, not judgmental. ”
This wasn't the mother, it was a neighbor. AS parents or caretakers of children, we aren't allowed the LUXURY of being tired and "doing stupid things." Sorry, parenting is the hardest job in the world because it takes a total abrogation of self. If you are that tired, stay home and take a nap.
Someone mentioned the center staff not noticing that the baby was missing. Good question! Why didn't they question their worker about the whereabouts of her Charge? Day cares work on schedules. Within an hour or so it should have been obvious that someone was missing and her whereabouts verified.
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Jul 03, 2009 at 02:11 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I dont see nor understand the correlation between car seats and forgetting your kid in the car please explain as we are all in the dark.... ”
Car seats are placed in the back and some for little kids face backwards. a distracted adult not seeing the child might forget. I don't know how but it DOES happen. I think larger vehicles like vans and SUV's may contribute. It happened to our Chabad Rabbi, a doting father, last year in FL. B"H he remembered and called a locksmith immediately. If it were me, I'd have smashed a window.
Adults MUST learn to check the back seats of their vehicles carefully EVERY time they exit and if the car seat faces backwards, they MUST check to see if there is an infant or small child in there.
When kids were simply buckled into car seats it was harder to miss them.
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Jul 03, 2009 at 12:41 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ The problem is not the car seat itself but the new regulations that the car seat be in the back seat. When the child is in that position behind the driver, the driver can't see him and isn't interacting with him. It's even worse if the car seat is facing backwards, as is recommended. This makes it disturbingly easy for the child's presence to simply slip out of the driver's memory, and indeed the number of such cases has significantly increased since children were banished from the front seat (because of the danger from air bags, which are themselves mandated by law). ”
2 1/2 year olds are facing forward not backwards.
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Jul 03, 2009 at 12:25 AM raizelsho Says:Report as Inappropriate
Unfortunately, a similar situation happened in Maryland last week - by the parents.
The name of the family has not been realeased. As per the Baltimore Sun:
"A 23-month-old Howard County girl died of heatstroke after one of her parents unintentionally left the child strapped in her car seat in front of the family's Ellicott City residence last week. Neither the identity of the child nor her parents was released. Police spokeswoman Sherry Llewellyn said Tuesday that no criminal charges will be filed. She said that emergency responders were called to the home about 5 p.m. June 25, eight to nine hours after the child had been placed in the car seat. Llewellyn said a "change of routine" caused the parent to forget that the child was in the car. Llewellyn said the Police Department, in conjunction with the county's Health Department, will be releasing a public service announcement about child safety. " Baruch Dayen Emes to all the children.
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Jul 03, 2009 at 12:24 AM anonimiss Says:Report as Inappropriate
happens all the time just usually they come back to the car before its too late
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Jul 03, 2009 at 01:09 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ That's just horrible. To the authors of comments 1 and 2, your comments are extremely thoughtless. If the child fell asleep and she did not regularly take him with her, I can see how this happened. I imagine she is suffering as much as the family who lost the child. This is tragic for all involved. ”
True ,you have no idea what this women might have on her mind!!! Especially if the baby was quiet- I am a very attentive mother and my child was sleeping and I almost forgot!!
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Jul 03, 2009 at 12:13 AM Ice cream Says:Report as Inappropriate
Bd'e. What I don't understand is, this happens every year, why people don't learn from it ?
In addition why people WON'T FORGET to take out the ICE CREAM from the car but a precious child is forgotten ?
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Jul 02, 2009 at 10:52 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
It is terrible........The women shoud to be in jail for the deth of little boy. This boy may be fall a sleep in a morning and she forgot about him.... I just unbelivable...to forget baby in the car for 6 hours.. you can forget about 5-10 min. but not 6 hours. She needs to be in a jail for that. The kids in day care were plaing outside while this little boy was daing in a car, no water and no body could hear his scream and cry.....a horrible death.. This is a terrible tragedy to the family who lost this child. How this women can live her life after what happened and what if her child could be at the same situation.
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Jul 03, 2009 at 08:11 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
Just talking to my daughter about this & she has a great suggestion. Anytime a baby/toddler is alone on the back seat, the driver should place a wallet/briefcase/purse next to the child. That way, once the driver tries to pay for something or needs to show ID, he/she will realize the kid is missing as well.
What a terrible tragedy!
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Jul 03, 2009 at 08:11 AM DizzyIzzy Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ You call the bloggers (people expressing an honest opinion) thoughtless, but the woman who left a helpless innocent creature to die a horrible death, she you don't call thoughtless. It clearly said in the article that the woman carpooled the child 3x per week and yet you make every excuse for her and don't call HER thoughtless, chas v'shalom! But the bloggers, people who don't go around leaving kids strapped in hot cars, they you call thoughtless. Lady, you are exactly what is WRONG with today's frum society. We have our values so out of alignment with reality that we are making ourselves look like fools, idiots and, in the worst cases, outright criminals, to society at large. So what if the child fell asleep, what does that change? Are you saying the child caused his own death by falling asleep? What child doesn't fall asleep in a car? And then you say, "I can see how this happened". Really? Are you in the habit of leaving your kids strapped in a hot car for 6 hours straight? You can really justify this level of negligence? And you call the bloggers insensitive and thoughtless? Who is really thoughtless here, Lady? ”
Sir, you seem very angry, and your anger is misplaced.
This story is a human tragedy, and a quick google search will confirm that such tragedies are not unique to frum people. Furthermore, you may notice that in many other cases (i.e., not the cases of frum people that we hear about) leaving the child behind was a willful decision, committed consciously by "thoughtless," people who wanted to go shopping, or fishing, or whatever, without a child tagging along. This is true "negligence."
All of us have experienced a momentary lapse of awareness; these are usually followed by a jolt of reflexive, shuddering relief that the tragedy that could have resulted, did not.
I am not this woman's apologist or defense attorney. It is unsettling that she did not notice the child's absence throughout the day, or even recall the child having been with her.
But your insistence that not only does this woman deserve blame, but is criminally negligent, and lacks appropriate values is way off base. It happens to be that this site attracts a ponderous number of inane, insensitive, and just plain stupid comments, for nearly every story of note. Whether or not this woman deserves such withering criticism, does not change the fact that this story has attracted a fair number of "thoughtless" comments written by "thoughtless" people; yours included.
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Jul 03, 2009 at 08:37 AM Dina Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Nowadays these stories are unfortunately more common because we are all under lots of stress. We are all familiar with leaving all sorts of things all over the place. Leaving a cell phone behind in a store, forgetting what we need once we get to the store, etc. are all common occurrences.
We are forgetful because we have too much on our minds.
Years ago there were less cars, and less children going to day care at the age of 2 or under 2. Most people did not have cars 50 years ago. Even 30 years ago a car was still a luxury, not a necessity.
This is unfortunately a tragedy that could certainly happen to anyone. We need to hope and pray that it never happens to us, and to daven that Hashem should protect our children from all misfortunes.
When children grow up safely, we take that for granted. In reality, it is a miracle. ”
You again -maybe we should all be walking like when you commented on the car crash. Enough already.
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Jul 03, 2009 at 08:34 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ True ,you have no idea what this women might have on her mind!!! Especially if the baby was quiet- I am a very attentive mother and my child was sleeping and I almost forgot!! ”
But as you say “almost”
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Jul 03, 2009 at 08:32 AM Dina Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Hate to say it, and please be gentle with me for saying it. Just think about it. The kid was probably belted in a car seat. The woman would not have forgotten about the kid if he was just in a regular seat belt. For years we had our kids in regular seat belts and it was fine. I am convinced that car seats are responsible for a lot of these deaths. There are no statistics comparing seat belts versus car seats.. but let's think about it.... ”
#4 take your medication and do not drive my kids.
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Jul 03, 2009 at 08:32 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Just talking to my daughter about this & she has a great suggestion. Anytime a baby/toddler is alone on the back seat, the driver should place a wallet/briefcase/purse next to the child. That way, once the driver tries to pay for something or needs to show ID, he/she will realize the kid is missing as well.
What a terrible tragedy! ”
Finally instead of blabbing someone has a good idea
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Jul 03, 2009 at 09:43 AM Mamtik the Din on your fellow Yid Says:Report as Inappropriate
"The quality of prior parental care seems to be irrelevant," he said. "The important factors that keep showing up involve a combination of stress, emotion, lack of sleep and change in routine, where the basal ganglia is trying to do what it's supposed to do, and the conscious mind is too weakened to resist. What happens is that the memory circuits in a vulnerable hippocampus literally get overwritten, like with a computer program. Unless the memory circuit is rebooted -- such as if the child cries, or, you know, if the wife mentions the child in the back -- it can entirely disappear."
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Jul 03, 2009 at 08:44 AM DizzyIzzy Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Bd'e. What I don't understand is, this happens every year, why people don't learn from it ?
In addition why people WON'T FORGET to take out the ICE CREAM from the car but a precious child is forgotten ? ”
"WON'T FORGET"? I think you're being a bit generous... unless I'm the first person ever to leave $150 of fresh meat in the car overnight, during a heatwave, in August.
All things considered, forgetting a baby in the car should be infinitely more difficult than leaving groceries. But to self-righteously sermonize about people being more concerned about "leaving the ice cream" than a "precious child" is just plain ridiculous.
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Jul 03, 2009 at 10:14 AM open window Says:Report as Inappropriate
in a mini van the child is 3 seats behind .if the child is asleep or is quiet when u leave the car or you rely on your spouse or an older kid to close doors this could be a very common i strongly suggest always to leave the windows open an inch front and back during the summer regardless if u have chidren or not
first in a sealed car hot air is trapped inside and cries and screams cannot be heard . secondly every person should have a certain phobia like when leaving the subway oh maybe i left a bag and before departing give a second glance the same way when leaving a car always look back i may sound neurotic but everybody forgets something every single day and by the way from some comments on this site u can see there r lots of mean bitter people out there
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Jul 03, 2009 at 10:14 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ "The quality of prior parental care seems to be irrelevant," he said. "The important factors that keep showing up involve a combination of stress, emotion, lack of sleep and change in routine, where the basal ganglia is trying to do what it's supposed to do, and the conscious mind is too weakened to resist. What happens is that the memory circuits in a vulnerable hippocampus literally get overwritten, like with a computer program. Unless the memory circuit is rebooted -- such as if the child cries, or, you know, if the wife mentions the child in the back -- it can entirely disappear." ”
Please, we've made up our minds. Don't try to confuse us with the facts.
The woman is a mass murderer who did it on purpose and has done this to hundreds of children previously. The only thing missing is a way to blame this on the tzi'onim, kollel, satmar, high yeshiva tuition, cholov stam, anti-Semitism, Rabbi Druckman, Barak Obama, Yankel Horowitz, Yair Hoffman or Bernie Madoff.
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Jul 03, 2009 at 10:08 AM tzoorba Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Sir, you seem very angry, and your anger is misplaced.
This story is a human tragedy, and a quick google search will confirm that such tragedies are not unique to frum people. Furthermore, you may notice that in many other cases (i.e., not the cases of frum people that we hear about) leaving the child behind was a willful decision, committed consciously by "thoughtless," people who wanted to go shopping, or fishing, or whatever, without a child tagging along. This is true "negligence."
All of us have experienced a momentary lapse of awareness; these are usually followed by a jolt of reflexive, shuddering relief that the tragedy that could have resulted, did not.
I am not this woman's apologist or defense attorney. It is unsettling that she did not notice the child's absence throughout the day, or even recall the child having been with her.
But your insistence that not only does this woman deserve blame, but is criminally negligent, and lacks appropriate values is way off base. It happens to be that this site attracts a ponderous number of inane, insensitive, and just plain stupid comments, for nearly every story of note. Whether or not this woman deserves such withering criticism, does not change the fact that this story has attracted a fair number of "thoughtless" comments written by "thoughtless" people; yours included. ”
This is not the time to be considerate to the person whose carelessness caused a murder. This is the time to raise awareness that there is no excuse to forget something that can lead to the death or severe injury of someone else.
Trying to excuse this is make it easier to happen again another time. People will never forget to do things that would prevent themselves from coming to severe embarrassment such as leaving off a major piece of clothing before going into the street. Safeguarding the life of a child is at least as important and no forgetfulness should be tolerated here.
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Jul 03, 2009 at 12:52 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
how can a mother forget !!!!
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Jul 03, 2009 at 10:31 AM Heartbroken Says:Report as Inappropriate
BDE; what a horrible story! Unfortunately, I can see how this is all too easy to happen. I actually once came home from the country with my family of several children late at night, and left one of my kids sleeping in the backseat of my van. BH that child's roommate noticed his absence around a
1/2 hour later and I was able to retrieve my child (still sleeping) without incident. NEVER condemn and NEVER assumer the r"l you can't make the same mistake r"l.
Hashem Yishmur
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Jul 03, 2009 at 12:34 PM robroy560 Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ You are 100% correct.
Rabbi Avigdor Miller z"l always used to say that when there was a tragedy of a child burned in a Chanuka fire or a child that fell out of the window, it wasn't a strange punishment from heaven that happened to the poor parents. In most cases, it was their criminal negligence for letting the child get too close to the fire or for not putting bars on the window.
The Jewish world at large has to accept on itself the responsibility of always being aware of the safety of little children. Forgiving these people is sending exactly the wrong message.
In my neighborhood, I see 2 and 3 year old children unsupervised near traffic. There is no excuse for this or for forgetting about a child for hours on end. ”
Interesting thought and explanation. A non-frum friend of mine used to say that we in the frum wolrd suffer from too many children and not enought parents. Before you rip in to me, he does have a point. We need to exercise care and pay attention our children.
My son is 4 months old. I worry like crazy for his safety. I too have seen horrible situations, as you mentioned, in BP and Willy. One Yom Tov I was in BP enjoying the nice breeze and I heard a crash. Some little kid ran out in to traffic. The driver, who wasn't going fast, couldn't see him because he ran out between cars. Fortunately the kid survived, but that poor driver could have accidently killed a child and would have to live with that. Where were the parents?
My father was very strict with my sister and I when it came to Shabbat/Yom Tov/Chanuka candles, riding our bikes, etc. I hated it as a child, but I will do the same with my son.
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Jul 03, 2009 at 02:15 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
It happened in the five towns, I remember this fellow walked out of his car and fell on the sidewalk, he had a heart attack, B"H before the ambulance took him away, a police officer looked in the car and saw a baby in the car seat!
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Jul 03, 2009 at 02:00 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Sir, you seem very angry, and your anger is misplaced.
This story is a human tragedy, and a quick google search will confirm that such tragedies are not unique to frum people. Furthermore, you may notice that in many other cases (i.e., not the cases of frum people that we hear about) leaving the child behind was a willful decision, committed consciously by "thoughtless," people who wanted to go shopping, or fishing, or whatever, without a child tagging along. This is true "negligence."
All of us have experienced a momentary lapse of awareness; these are usually followed by a jolt of reflexive, shuddering relief that the tragedy that could have resulted, did not.
I am not this woman's apologist or defense attorney. It is unsettling that she did not notice the child's absence throughout the day, or even recall the child having been with her.
But your insistence that not only does this woman deserve blame, but is criminally negligent, and lacks appropriate values is way off base. It happens to be that this site attracts a ponderous number of inane, insensitive, and just plain stupid comments, for nearly every story of note. Whether or not this woman deserves such withering criticism, does not change the fact that this story has attracted a fair number of "thoughtless" comments written by "thoughtless" people; yours included. ”
Why don't you dig that child's grave as you contemplate your idiotic remarks.
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Jul 03, 2009 at 01:56 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ #8 is right. She forgot because it wasn't a set routine that she ALWAYS did. Secondly, even if it was the routine but since it wasn't daily it is very easy to forget. No, you can't blame her. It is very very sad! Hashem should comfort them! ”
According to you, it is "easy to forget" a child in the backseat of your car? Remind me never to let my kids ride with you!
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Jul 03, 2009 at 01:48 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
I am an overprotective mother, never leave my children out sight for a second and I watch them in my own private completly closed backyard.
I once forgot my newborn in the car for over an hour. B"H it was in the winter and the baby slept thru it all. I was like you, quick to scream how irresponsible , careless and what not when this stories came out until it happen to me, and i can tell you one thing if it happened to me it can happen to anyone. i changed the way i look and judge people, till today I fear what could have happened that day many years ago. I had left some kids by my mom and took the baby with me, I was in a rush and went to the store, got what I needed and only realize I left the baby in the car when I was back in the car. again It was SO out of character for me.
talking about it with a friend she told me she left her 4 year old in the locked car for 3 hours but B"H it was parked under a tree and on a 70 degree weather that prevented it from getting too hot.
I am not saying it's ok, or it happens what I am saying is: even if you trust yourself to the fullest and think it would never happen to you, think again. because there are times when the imposible happens. I feel terribly sorry for all those involved in any type of negligent accident that results in death or injury of a child.Hashem should have rachmones on all our children.
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Jul 03, 2009 at 01:55 PM Acheinu Bais Yisrael Says:Report as Inappropriate
What was the childs name?
I want to start a group to learn Mishnayos in his memory.
May he find his place in Gan Eden. Amen!!!
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Jul 03, 2009 at 01:54 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Sir, you seem very angry, and your anger is misplaced.
This story is a human tragedy, and a quick google search will confirm that such tragedies are not unique to frum people. Furthermore, you may notice that in many other cases (i.e., not the cases of frum people that we hear about) leaving the child behind was a willful decision, committed consciously by "thoughtless," people who wanted to go shopping, or fishing, or whatever, without a child tagging along. This is true "negligence."
All of us have experienced a momentary lapse of awareness; these are usually followed by a jolt of reflexive, shuddering relief that the tragedy that could have resulted, did not.
I am not this woman's apologist or defense attorney. It is unsettling that she did not notice the child's absence throughout the day, or even recall the child having been with her.
But your insistence that not only does this woman deserve blame, but is criminally negligent, and lacks appropriate values is way off base. It happens to be that this site attracts a ponderous number of inane, insensitive, and just plain stupid comments, for nearly every story of note. Whether or not this woman deserves such withering criticism, does not change the fact that this story has attracted a fair number of "thoughtless" comments written by "thoughtless" people; yours included. ”
Somebody left 2 dogs in a car in the UK and is facing a 6 month jail term and a fine of BP 20,000.00 for their "thoughtlessness" and "cruelty to animals" You have less rachmanus on a human child. You sir, are a monster. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196962/Police-dogs-die-left-car-temperature-soars-29C.html
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Jul 03, 2009 at 04:03 PM ME MYSELF MY SHADDOW AND I Says:Report as Inappropriate
Listen up fellows, this could happen to the best of us. and it actually happened to one of the best - to ME!
I took my then 2 year old daughter with me on a hot summer day car shopping. I was looking to buy a new car. The whole time that I was negotiating with the salesman, I felt that something wasn't right, something is missing. I couldn't figure out what that feeling was. I thought that maybe it was the weird salesman trying to convince me to buy that over sized overpriced car.
and then it hit me!
My wife sent me on "shlichus"... why was it so quiet in here? the whole way I was thinking how I would manage to look professional while running after my 2 year old.
I ran out to the car, and to my great luck and ezras hashem, I had hadn't closed the door well, so air came in to the car. my sweetie pie was smiling at me when she saw me but I was in no mood to be able to smile back. My heart was pumping faster than a galicianer after a nickel.
B"H it ended well, but guys - be careful. Close Michael Savage or whoever you are listening to and focus on what you gotta be doing.
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Jul 03, 2009 at 04:33 PM Milhouse Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Somebody left 2 dogs in a car in the UK and is facing a 6 month jail term and a fine of BP 20,000.00 for their "thoughtlessness" and "cruelty to animals" You have less rachmanus on a human child. You sir, are a monster. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196962/Police-dogs-die-left-car-temperature-soars-29C.html ”
The difference is that that person is suspected of DELIBERATELY leaving the dogs in the car. Nobody even suspects that when it's a baby.
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Jul 03, 2009 at 04:24 PM Milhouse Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ It is terrible........The women shoud to be in jail for the deth of little boy. This boy may be fall a sleep in a morning and she forgot about him.... I just unbelivable...to forget baby in the car for 6 hours.. you can forget about 5-10 min. but not 6 hours. She needs to be in a jail for that. The kids in day care were plaing outside while this little boy was daing in a car, no water and no body could hear his scream and cry.....a horrible death.. This is a terrible tragedy to the family who lost this child. How this women can live her life after what happened and what if her child could be at the same situation. ”
You're making no sense. What's the difference between forgetting for 5 or 10 minutes and 6 hours? Once you've forgotten, what is going to remind you?
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Jul 03, 2009 at 04:23 PM Milhouse Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Bd'e. What I don't understand is, this happens every year, why people don't learn from it ?
In addition why people WON'T FORGET to take out the ICE CREAM from the car but a precious child is forgotten ? ”
How do you know people don't forget ice cream even more often? I once forgot about some meat that I'd taken out of the freezer, and I had a cold so I didn't smell it until it was very far gone. It was NOT pleasant.
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Jul 03, 2009 at 04:43 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ You're making no sense. What's the difference between forgetting for 5 or 10 minutes and 6 hours? Once you've forgotten, what is going to remind you? ”
the difference is very simple-if it was 5 or 10 minutes the child would still be alive.
when she went to take care of the other kids she should've realized this child wasnt in the classroom
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Jul 03, 2009 at 05:28 PM harav shach tzodaik Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ This is not the time to be considerate to the person whose carelessness caused a murder. This is the time to raise awareness that there is no excuse to forget something that can lead to the death or severe injury of someone else.
Trying to excuse this is make it easier to happen again another time. People will never forget to do things that would prevent themselves from coming to severe embarrassment such as leaving off a major piece of clothing before going into the street. Safeguarding the life of a child is at least as important and no forgetfulness should be tolerated here. ”
She CAUSED A MURDER?
As much as I try to avoid insulting anyone no matter what they say or write to deserve the insult, you are pushing the limit.
I never call anyone names but if I'd be lost as to what to call you. Idiot? Moron? Lunatic? Retard?
Not that it matters, I never would call you any of those things, even though they all seem to fit equally well at the moment.
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Jul 03, 2009 at 05:23 PM Curse of Adam Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Listen up fellows, this could happen to the best of us. and it actually happened to one of the best - to ME!
I took my then 2 year old daughter with me on a hot summer day car shopping. I was looking to buy a new car. The whole time that I was negotiating with the salesman, I felt that something wasn't right, something is missing. I couldn't figure out what that feeling was. I thought that maybe it was the weird salesman trying to convince me to buy that over sized overpriced car.
and then it hit me!
My wife sent me on "shlichus"... why was it so quiet in here? the whole way I was thinking how I would manage to look professional while running after my 2 year old.
I ran out to the car, and to my great luck and ezras hashem, I had hadn't closed the door well, so air came in to the car. my sweetie pie was smiling at me when she saw me but I was in no mood to be able to smile back. My heart was pumping faster than a galicianer after a nickel.
B"H it ended well, but guys - be careful. Close Michael Savage or whoever you are listening to and focus on what you gotta be doing. ”
When you say.. "My wife sent me on "shlichus"... why was it so quiet in here? "
This connotates that you blame her. You are an idiot just like Adam was. You do not blame women, especially for your stupidity. You especially don't blame your wife. May g-d punish you with a similar punishment. May your wife have marital issues with you, and hope she divorces you - the disgusting pig and filth you are!
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Jul 03, 2009 at 05:35 PM A physician Says:Report as Inappropriate
When I [did a big aveira and] went to college, I had a course on accident prevention.
Such courses focus not on the WHY? (ie why did this tragedy happen to so-and-so? What was Hashem's plan? etc) but rather on the HOW--the mechanism of the accident, to help lower chances of a recurrence.
There is actually a scientific way to reduce accidents. There are methods that lower one's chances of an accident. Some include simply mneumonics (memory aids) like those suggested above--ie leaving one's purse or wallet next to the toddler, leaving the windows uncharacteristically open (helps remind the person, and also keep the child relatively cool if the electrical system fails or the child is forgotten), etc.
One thing that is not discussed, and won't be by frum people, is that our wives, the mothers of our children, are overworked, overstressed, and exhausted. These sorts of variables factor into human error for pilots, for drivers, etc. Yet, somehow the women in our community are expected to be superwomen.
Such accidents resulting in loss of life are tragic, but by thinking of ways to lessen one's chances of an accident, one is fulfilling a biblical mitzvah (ve'nishmartem me'od l'nafshoseichem) and the reward for obeying the dictum, chamira sakanta me'issura (a danger should be treated more stringently than a sin) will be enormous.
Baruch dayan emes.
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Jul 03, 2009 at 05:44 PM Milhouse Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ the difference is very simple-if it was 5 or 10 minutes the child would still be alive.
when she went to take care of the other kids she should've realized this child wasnt in the classroom ”
Only if he was there every day. If he only went a few times a week, she would have no reason to think of him.
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Jul 03, 2009 at 07:12 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ That's just horrible. To the authors of comments 1 and 2, your comments are extremely thoughtless. If the child fell asleep and she did not regularly take him with her, I can see how this happened. I imagine she is suffering as much as the family who lost the child. This is tragic for all involved. ”
I personally know rimma and we are all suffering with her.. You will not believe the shape this woman is in along with her family. SHe lost her younger sister few years ago to cancer and she is taking care of her sisters 2 kids along with her own daughters. She is going through a lot right now , she will never forgive her self and we are all grieving along with the family
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Jul 04, 2009 at 02:42 PM Albert Says:Report as Inappropriate
It is always easier to judge. We all have something to say until it hits us. This is a tragic accident, it could have happend to anyone. We should not judge this woman but should pray for her. It was G-ds will to take that little boy, and she was an innoscent bystand. Lets pray for the family of the little boy, may time heal their pain.
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Jul 04, 2009 at 02:40 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ True ,you have no idea what this women might have on her mind!!! Especially if the baby was quiet- I am a very attentive mother and my child was sleeping and I almost forgot!! ”
Then I'm sorry, you are not attentive ENOUGH. That Child is your first priority totally! You MUST attend to him/her above all else. YOu cannot afford to had other things on your mind when she is with you in a car.
What is the matter with you people. That' s a human being not just another package or errand!!!!
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Jul 04, 2009 at 08:59 PM tzoorba Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I am an overprotective mother, never leave my children out sight for a second and I watch them in my own private completly closed backyard.
I once forgot my newborn in the car for over an hour. B"H it was in the winter and the baby slept thru it all. I was like you, quick to scream how irresponsible , careless and what not when this stories came out until it happen to me, and i can tell you one thing if it happened to me it can happen to anyone. i changed the way i look and judge people, till today I fear what could have happened that day many years ago. I had left some kids by my mom and took the baby with me, I was in a rush and went to the store, got what I needed and only realize I left the baby in the car when I was back in the car. again It was SO out of character for me.
talking about it with a friend she told me she left her 4 year old in the locked car for 3 hours but B"H it was parked under a tree and on a 70 degree weather that prevented it from getting too hot.
I am not saying it's ok, or it happens what I am saying is: even if you trust yourself to the fullest and think it would never happen to you, think again. because there are times when the imposible happens. I feel terribly sorry for all those involved in any type of negligent accident that results in death or injury of a child.Hashem should have rachmones on all our children. ”
You are obviously a caring mother and may Hashem bless you and protect you and your family.
However, now that you forgot once, you should try to do things to strengthen your protection. For example, make a habit to put the keys in your left hand and not put them in the right until you have assured the safety of your children.
Since you care, you will succeed b'ezras Hashem.
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Jul 04, 2009 at 09:08 PM tzoorba Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ She CAUSED A MURDER?
As much as I try to avoid insulting anyone no matter what they say or write to deserve the insult, you are pushing the limit.
I never call anyone names but if I'd be lost as to what to call you. Idiot? Moron? Lunatic? Retard?
Not that it matters, I never would call you any of those things, even though they all seem to fit equally well at the moment. ”
What does the Torah call a Rotzeach Beshogeg?
The level of negligence of someone that leave a baby in a car to die is higher than what the Torah calls a Rotzeach, murderer.
Don't broadcast your ignorance when you call people names.
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Jul 04, 2009 at 11:25 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ My sister nearly died in a car almost 18 years ago. We were in the country and when we arrived to the bungalow colony there was a fight among the kids - who would be first. We had visitors and assumed that my sister had gone to play with the kids. A little while later someone came to inquire where she is and we answered that she's playing with the kids. A few minutes passed and he again asked where she is. At this point I was sent to go look for her. I didn't find her playing with the kids so i retraced my steps. I found her in the car crying, her body hot and red.
She was placed in a bathtub with cold water - note: not too cold and definitely not freezing as this can shock the body. BH we caught her in the nick of time. Had this person not persisted CV the ending would have been the same as the story above. Hashem sent him as a shliuch to save her.
The most common causes of why a child is left in a car is:
1) Children fighting about getting out first, ultimately someone stays behind.
2) There are a few kids in the car and one of them fell asleep
3) Not the usual parent or guardian dropping the kid off at the babysitter or school.
Solutions for those that usually don't have kids in the car:
1) Have a baby bag up front so you see it and it reminds you of the kid in the back.
2) Put something that you will need next to the kid exp. briefcase, hat, jacket...
Remember a car can very quickly heat up.
”
Good suggestions. Unbelieaveable stgory. B'H your sister was found.
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Jul 05, 2009 at 06:16 AM LivingInIsrael Says:Report as Inappropriate
What happened to all the passersby? If she was parked in front of the daycare center, didn't anyone see the child in the car? For so many hours someone HAD to see something! Are we all too busy? Too busy to remember to look in the car to check if we left anything before we got out? A wallet, keys, glasses, cellphone, CHILD?!!!! Are we too busy that if we do see a child in a car, just to walk to the nearest house and ask did you forget a child in the car? We must change our ways/habits/lack of caring for others, or others personal property. I feel for both parties to this tragedy. Lo aleinu. And again I wouldn't want this ever to happen to me and may it never happen to any of us, but in the end Baruch Dayan HaEmet.
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Jul 05, 2009 at 10:21 AM Alpert Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I find this story very hard to believe. Somebody whose job involves being responsible for children on a daily basis, forgets about a child in her own car. Hamokom Yenachem the parents and the family. ”
Its always "hard to believe" and easy to judge someone. Until it happens to you. Read the comments before, it shows that even parents sometimes forget their children, accidents happen. You shouldnt judge people, or judge them the way you would want to be judged.
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Jul 05, 2009 at 01:07 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ What does the Torah call a Rotzeach Beshogeg?
The level of negligence of someone that leave a baby in a car to die is higher than what the Torah calls a Rotzeach, murderer.
Don't broadcast your ignorance when you call people names. ”
REALLY???
Rotzai'ach beshogeg? Without having taken any action to cause the death?
Perhaps you might want to speak to a real moreh hora'ah before paskening on complicated issues.
As for calling names, you called this poor woman a rotzeches beshogaig without knowing anything more than you read in a short article in an unreliable mass media outlet.
Call and ask mechilla before yom kippur.
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Jul 05, 2009 at 12:47 PM Milhouse Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ What does the Torah call a Rotzeach Beshogeg?
The level of negligence of someone that leave a baby in a car to die is higher than what the Torah calls a Rotzeach, murderer.
Don't broadcast your ignorance when you call people names. ”
1. Retzach beshogeg is manslaughter, not murder.
2. This is not shogeg, it's oness. Read this before you make any more pronouncements on the subject: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/27/AR2009022701549.html?wpisrc=newsletter&sid=ST2009030602446
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Jul 05, 2009 at 01:33 PM tzoorba Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ REALLY???
Rotzai'ach beshogeg? Without having taken any action to cause the death?
Perhaps you might want to speak to a real moreh hora'ah before paskening on complicated issues.
As for calling names, you called this poor woman a rotzeches beshogaig without knowing anything more than you read in a short article in an unreliable mass media outlet.
Call and ask mechilla before yom kippur. ”
Why don't you learn Masechtos Makos and come back and comment. Causing an unintentional death by gross negligence is at least as much rotzeiach beshogaig as falling off a ladder onto someone.
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Jul 05, 2009 at 01:46 PM tzoorba Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ 1. Retzach beshogeg is manslaughter, not murder.
2. This is not shogeg, it's oness. Read this before you make any more pronouncements on the subject: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/27/AR2009022701549.html?wpisrc=newsletter&sid=ST2009030602446 ”
"1. Retzach beshogeg is manslaughter, not murder"
I'm sorry but the term Rotzayach means someone that kills someone else by their actions. It may be intentional, unintentional or totally out of their control. The Torah uses the exact same term, rotzayach, for intentional murder as for unintentional murder. This is no accident.
According to Torah law, one who committed unintentional murder is subject to being killed by the relatives of the victim unless they flee to a city of refuge. This clearly indicates that the Torah views this as a level of murder. The artificial distinction of manslaughter does not exist in Torah law.
The article that you provide the link for proves nothing. Although the stories are heart wrenching, forgetting something in the sun where it can be severely damaged is peshia even when it comes to physical objects and certainly when it comes to the life of innocent human beings.
If you lent a pair of tefillin to someone and they forgot them in the sun in the back of their car so that they became warped and ruined there is no question that this would be considered negligence and not ones. This is no different.
It's a tremendous rachmanus on the person who did this and she surely had no ill intent and she will no doubt suffer with this until the end of her life. However, we must have rachmonus on the poor children who are victims of this negligence and let people know that they need to do things to prevent this from happening to them.
There is altogether too much fatalism in many people's point of view that these things can't be avoided. The blood of these innocent children cries out for us to arouse the public for the need for greater care to avoid this and other tragedies.
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Jul 05, 2009 at 01:50 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Why don't you learn Masechtos Makos and come back and comment. Causing an unintentional death by gross negligence is at least as much rotzeiach beshogaig as falling off a ladder onto someone. ”
Go ask a posaik and find out the entire metzi'us before you pasken.
Your 'kal vechomer' doesn't work.
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Jul 05, 2009 at 02:15 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ "1. Retzach beshogeg is manslaughter, not murder"
I'm sorry but the term Rotzayach means someone that kills someone else by their actions. It may be intentional, unintentional or totally out of their control. The Torah uses the exact same term, rotzayach, for intentional murder as for unintentional murder. This is no accident.
According to Torah law, one who committed unintentional murder is subject to being killed by the relatives of the victim unless they flee to a city of refuge. This clearly indicates that the Torah views this as a level of murder. The artificial distinction of manslaughter does not exist in Torah law.
The article that you provide the link for proves nothing. Although the stories are heart wrenching, forgetting something in the sun where it can be severely damaged is peshia even when it comes to physical objects and certainly when it comes to the life of innocent human beings.
If you lent a pair of tefillin to someone and they forgot them in the sun in the back of their car so that they became warped and ruined there is no question that this would be considered negligence and not ones. This is no different.
It's a tremendous rachmanus on the person who did this and she surely had no ill intent and she will no doubt suffer with this until the end of her life. However, we must have rachmonus on the poor children who are victims of this negligence and let people know that they need to do things to prevent this from happening to them.
There is altogether too much fatalism in many people's point of view that these things can't be avoided. The blood of these innocent children cries out for us to arouse the public for the need for greater care to avoid this and other tragedies. ”
Great lecture. No one would have known this was a tragedy and we all need to be ever-more careful if you hadn't pontificated on the subject. Nothing to do with halachah though.
Now go climb back into your ivory tower.
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Jul 05, 2009 at 02:06 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ "1. Retzach beshogeg is manslaughter, not murder"
I'm sorry but the term Rotzayach means someone that kills someone else by their actions. It may be intentional, unintentional or totally out of their control. The Torah uses the exact same term, rotzayach, for intentional murder as for unintentional murder. This is no accident.
According to Torah law, one who committed unintentional murder is subject to being killed by the relatives of the victim unless they flee to a city of refuge. This clearly indicates that the Torah views this as a level of murder. The artificial distinction of manslaughter does not exist in Torah law.
The article that you provide the link for proves nothing. Although the stories are heart wrenching, forgetting something in the sun where it can be severely damaged is peshia even when it comes to physical objects and certainly when it comes to the life of innocent human beings.
If you lent a pair of tefillin to someone and they forgot them in the sun in the back of their car so that they became warped and ruined there is no question that this would be considered negligence and not ones. This is no different.
It's a tremendous rachmanus on the person who did this and she surely had no ill intent and she will no doubt suffer with this until the end of her life. However, we must have rachmonus on the poor children who are victims of this negligence and let people know that they need to do things to prevent this from happening to them.
There is altogether too much fatalism in many people's point of view that these things can't be avoided. The blood of these innocent children cries out for us to arouse the public for the need for greater care to avoid this and other tragedies. ”
Wow! First you make a diyuk that doesn't work from the fact that the torah calls an accidental killer a rotzai'ach (what we are debating is not whether or not a rotzai'ach beshogeg is guilty to some degree according to the torah. We all know that already. We are discussing your declaring this poor woman to be in that category) then you try to use a halachah in dinai mamonus to prove a point in rotzai'ach beshogaig.
Please, ask a real, practicing posaik and moreh hora'ah before offering your unsolicited, incorrect, pompous, self-rightous, holier than thou opinions poorly disguised as psak halachah.
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Jul 05, 2009 at 05:23 PM tzoorba Says:Report as Inappropriate
I see that I have inadvertently given the wrong impression that my intent is to condemn the poor woman who left the child in the car.
Murder in English generally is taken as willful and malicious taking of the life of another person. I did not intend this meaning. The Torah calls it Retzicha whenever one person causes the death of another. This is not the same as murder. Perhaps this is what Millhouse meant by manslaughter. In no way am I saying that this woman had any harmful intent.
In general, my interest was not to seek ways to find the woman guilty.
However, I do believe that the excessive focus on not blaming her diverts from the very true problem of lack of concern and care for the steps necessary to insure that children are kept safe. I believe that more focus is needed there and that tragic incidents like these point out the need for extra safeguards to avoid such tragedies.
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Jul 05, 2009 at 05:28 PM tzoorba Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Go ask a posaik and find out the entire metzi'us before you pasken.
Your 'kal vechomer' doesn't work. ”
First of all, no one is paskening here and anyone who takes psak from here without going to a competent Rov is making a mistake. We are expressing our view of what the Torah approach is to the best of our ability.
What is your kashya on the kal vechomer?
There is a possibility that there needs to be more direct action by the rotzeyach to be considered retzicha.
There is no question, however, that the woman needs some form of kapporo for whatever level of involvement she has. She should go to a great Rov and ask what she should do. This will aid in her kapporo and also possibly provide her a measure of peace.
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Jul 05, 2009 at 05:53 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ "1. Retzach beshogeg is manslaughter, not murder"
I'm sorry but the term Rotzayach means someone that kills someone else by their actions. It may be intentional, unintentional or totally out of their control. The Torah uses the exact same term, rotzayach, for intentional murder as for unintentional murder. This is no accident.
According to Torah law, one who committed unintentional murder is subject to being killed by the relatives of the victim unless they flee to a city of refuge. This clearly indicates that the Torah views this as a level of murder. The artificial distinction of manslaughter does not exist in Torah law.
The article that you provide the link for proves nothing. Although the stories are heart wrenching, forgetting something in the sun where it can be severely damaged is peshia even when it comes to physical objects and certainly when it comes to the life of innocent human beings.
If you lent a pair of tefillin to someone and they forgot them in the sun in the back of their car so that they became warped and ruined there is no question that this would be considered negligence and not ones. This is no different.
It's a tremendous rachmanus on the person who did this and she surely had no ill intent and she will no doubt suffer with this until the end of her life. However, we must have rachmonus on the poor children who are victims of this negligence and let people know that they need to do things to prevent this from happening to them.
There is altogether too much fatalism in many people's point of view that these things can't be avoided. The blood of these innocent children cries out for us to arouse the public for the need for greater care to avoid this and other tragedies. ”
Actually it is called Involuntary manslaughter, with criminally negligent manslaughter.
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Jul 05, 2009 at 05:51 PM tzoorba Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Wow! First you make a diyuk that doesn't work from the fact that the torah calls an accidental killer a rotzai'ach (what we are debating is not whether or not a rotzai'ach beshogeg is guilty to some degree according to the torah. We all know that already. We are discussing your declaring this poor woman to be in that category) then you try to use a halachah in dinai mamonus to prove a point in rotzai'ach beshogaig.
Please, ask a real, practicing posaik and moreh hora'ah before offering your unsolicited, incorrect, pompous, self-rightous, holier than thou opinions poorly disguised as psak halachah.
”
Why doesn't the diyuk work? Bring some substance to your argument rather than random amorphous complaining.
As I have stated above, my intent is not to condemn the woman although I believe she should see a Godol to ask what she should do to achieve kapporo.
What gives you more of a right to express your opinions about ignoring the need to raise awareness for extra care in child protection in order to focus on the innocence of the poor woman? What posek or rov did you ask?
Perhaps you are reinforcing the lack of concern that some unfortunately do have.
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Jul 05, 2009 at 05:43 PM tzoorba Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Great lecture. No one would have known this was a tragedy and we all need to be ever-more careful if you hadn't pontificated on the subject. Nothing to do with halachah though.
Now go climb back into your ivory tower. ”
The truth is that no one would draw the conclusion that any extra care is necessary from the majority of comments on this topic.
While the intent of the posters is to console the poor woman who made the mistake, the message of the need for extra care IS being lost in my opinion. That's why we see the repeat of these kinds of stories all too often.
Now I'll join you in your ivory tower of pure motives.
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Jul 08, 2009 at 07:20 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ When Hashem wants a person to forget, they forget. Burach Dayen Huemes.
May Hashem bring Moshiach and end all sorrow now. ”
Why do you want the world to end so desperately? This was miserable thing to happen to be sure, but not a reason to preach your fatalistic nonsense.
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Jul 08, 2009 at 07:11 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ When Hashem wants a person to forget, they forget. Burach Dayen Huemes.
May Hashem bring Moshiach and end all sorrow now. ”
Why do you want the world to end so desperately? This was miserable thing to happen to be sure, but not a reason to preach your fatalistic nonsense.
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Mar 22, 2010 at 01:25 PM Ravi A Says:Report as Inappropriate
A VERY, VERY sad story.... Still, I don’t think it would be any good to sentence this poor woman. What good will it do to send 47 year old woman to jail? She's gonna have to carry this burden for the rest of her life.