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Israel - New Cheaper Method in Glatt Kosher Meat an Uphill Battle |
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The Of Hanegev slaughter house near Netivot.
But these rabbis might be headed for a kosher meat war, complete with mudslinging by competitors fearful of being cut out of the market.
Rabbi Baruch Roshgold, a widely respected expert on the Jewish laws and practices of shkhita (ritual slaughter), has put his name behind an innovative method which he says cuts costs without compromising kashrut standards.
"Maybe this is the reason God brought me into the world and gave me all my shekhting experience," Roshgold said. "So that I can show there is a better way that is not only cheaper, it is of even higher quality than any of the mehadrin labels on the market."
Over a year ago Roshgold, who has personally trained many of the nation's most well-known ritual slaughters over the past three decades, joined forces with the Israeli branch of the Orthodox Union (OU) and kosher supervisors in the Chief Rabbinate to implement the slaughter method.
Today they are producing about 150 tons of Glatt chicken a month.
Marketed under the brand-name "Fleisch OU," the special slaughter method is based on probability, a recognized principle in Jewish law. A sample of 1,500 chickens out of a total of about 10,000 is thoroughly checked to determine what percentage are treif [not kosher] due to mucous in the lungs or ripped leg tendons, the two most common problems suffered by chickens.
If more than one percent of the chickens examined are found to be treif, none of the 10,000 is used by Fleisch. Instead, it is directed to regular Chief Rabbinate kosher supervision.
If, however, 1% or less is found to be treif, the remaining chickens are assumed to be of high quality and are, therefore, not in need of labor-intensive examinations of the lungs and legs. Rather, a cursory examination as the chickens go by hanging upside down on a production line is deemed sufficient.
In contrast, Glatt kosher supervisors such as the Edah Haredit's Badatz, She'arit Yisrael, Rabbi Rubin, Belz and others check every chicken's lungs and legs thoroughly.
The resulting price difference is significant: For instance, on an arbitrary day at the end of 2008 in a supermarket in Petah Tikva, a whole chicken under one of the more stringent kosher supervisors cost about NIS 26 per kilo, compared to just NIS 20 per kilo for a Fleisch chicken. This was just NIS 3 more expensive than a chicken under regular Chief Rabbinate supervision.
The discrepancy is even more pronounced for items such as drumsticks. Instead of paying about NIS 46 for a kilo of Glatt kosher drumsticks under the supervision of one of the stricter supervisors, Fleisch's drumsticks cost just NIS 28.
Fleisch might be fighting an uphill battle in a market in which high prices are associated with a high level of kosher supervision, while low prices are seen as an indicator of lower kashrut standards.
Sources in the kosher slaughtering world who insisted on remaining anonymous were skeptical of Fleisch's kashrut level. However, none of the sources who spoke with the Jerusalem Post had actually seen Fleisch's slaughter method in action.
All of Fleisch's chickens are labeled with a telephone number and an invitation to see the slaughter process in person.
This week the Post visited Fleisch's operation at the Of Hanegev slaughterhouse near Netivot, together with a group of senior American-born OU rabbis living in Israel.
The group included Rabbi Berel Wein, Rabbi Shalom Gold, Rabbi Aharon Borow, Rabbi Moshe Gorelik and Rabbi Jay Karzen. They were positively impressed by the slaughter method.
Shuki Batist, Fleisch's marketing director, said its marketing strategy was very cautious.
"We barely advertise and we are careful to market our chickens only in haredi supermarket chains," he said.
Sources close to Fleisch, who preferred to remain anonymous to avoid entering into conflicts with others in the kosher meat market, said Fleisch's detractors were motivated primarily by personal business interests.
"If you can buy a Glatt kosher chicken for just a few shekels a kilo more than a regular Rabbinate chicken, why wouldn't you?" asked one source.
"There are private butchers in Jerusalem who received telephone calls claiming that Fleisch chickens are worse than regular Chief Rabbinate chickens.
"But so far no one has listened. And soon we will be expanding to cattle at well," the source said.
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Read Comments (39) — Post Yours »
1
Jul 03, 2009 at 07:21 AM Anonymous Says:
The term "glatt" is only in beef, where onw checks the longs, chickens is kosher or non kosher
2
Jul 03, 2009 at 07:33 AM Anonymous Says:
Hello! nothing new over here. This principle has been used long ago, until the Rabbonim of the Eda concluded that nowdays, given the way chickens grow etc (or don't row) there is a greater instance of trief and therefore each chicken should be checked seperately. The fact that other Botei Dinim followed and today is common practice by many.
This board is far from the place where such Halachos can be discussed & 'decieded'. See tshuvos of R' Meir Brandsdorfer etc.
Kosher chicken has allways been proportionally more expensive (and part of the 'hidur' is the price) but even before they checked each chicken the prices were sky high, partly because shecita has manual labout that non-kosher hasn't, but mainly because it's not so mass-produced. (AND there was always the factor that 'shecita is a tax for the community/moisdos/......)
3
Jul 03, 2009 at 08:26 AM Meir Says:
The Old Boys network won't give up their profits and allow this.
4
Jul 03, 2009 at 09:46 AM Anonymous Says:
If someone is so worried about both cost and kashrut, they should be a vegetarian. There is no requirement for a Jew to eat meat.
5
Jul 03, 2009 at 09:13 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Hello! nothing new over here. This principle has been used long ago, until the Rabbonim of the Eda concluded that nowdays, given the way chickens grow etc (or don't row) there is a greater instance of trief and therefore each chicken should be checked seperately. The fact that other Botei Dinim followed and today is common practice by many.
This board is far from the place where such Halachos can be discussed & 'decieded'. See tshuvos of R' Meir Brandsdorfer etc.
Kosher chicken has allways been proportionally more expensive (and part of the 'hidur' is the price) but even before they checked each chicken the prices were sky high, partly because shecita has manual labout that non-kosher hasn't, but mainly because it's not so mass-produced. (AND there was always the factor that 'shecita is a tax for the community/moisdos/......) ”
Tax! Thanx, I wanted everyone to read it from one of the old boys themselves. you made my case.
6
Jul 03, 2009 at 08:59 AM Anonymous Says:
why are so many people makbid to eat glatt?
glatt is not for everyone. There are people that eat cholov stam there are people that don't eat only pas yisroel,
glatt is just another chumrah like cholov yisroel and pas yisroel.
THE POINT OF MY COMMENT IS NOT TO DEBATE IF CHOLOV STAM IS KOSHER OR NOT.
My point is, is for those people that eat cholov stam , let them also eat non-glatt.
I'M IN NO WAY TRYING TO PUT DOWN THOSE THAT EAT CHOLOV STAM, i actually also eat cholov stam and i would also eat non-glatt if it was available.
Now i come to my second point.
why is non-glatt with a decent hechsher non existant??
answer?? $$$$$
7
Jul 03, 2009 at 11:00 AM Anonymous Says:
eating non glatttoday (at least in the US) today is different then non glatt back in the old country. It used to be non glatt was that put simply they never check if the animal was glatt or not. These days non glatt is from those animals that were checked and couldnt be glatt so they sell it as regular
8
Jul 03, 2009 at 10:44 AM SimchaB Says:
Reply to #6:The purpose of glatt was to remove the possibility of financial pressure on the Rav or Bodek when ruling on sirchos. Currently Glatt refers to an animal with only a few sirchos and Bais Yosef Glatt means no sirchos at all. So now you could imagine what non Glatt is in sirchos count and the resulting pressure. By the way there is non Glatt out there, Hebrew National was under the hashgacha of Rabbi Tobias (Tuvia) Stern of Florida for many years. Rubashkin had a non Glatt line under Rabbi Zelingold of Twin Cities Minnesota. However given their propensity for label switching and general confusion when you bought glatt you might have been getting non Glatt.
9
Jul 03, 2009 at 10:41 AM Anonymous Says:
“ why are so many people makbid to eat glatt?
glatt is not for everyone. There are people that eat cholov stam there are people that don't eat only pas yisroel,
glatt is just another chumrah like cholov yisroel and pas yisroel.
THE POINT OF MY COMMENT IS NOT TO DEBATE IF CHOLOV STAM IS KOSHER OR NOT.
My point is, is for those people that eat cholov stam , let them also eat non-glatt.
I'M IN NO WAY TRYING TO PUT DOWN THOSE THAT EAT CHOLOV STAM, i actually also eat cholov stam and i would also eat non-glatt if it was available.
Now i come to my second point.
why is non-glatt with a decent hechsher non existant??
answer?? $$$$$ ”
Non glatt means that a bodek noticed an adhesion of the lung to the inside cavity of the animal which may or may not have been caused by a healed hole iin the lung. (A hole in the lung make the animal a treifa). Since the adhesion creates this doubt, if the adhesion is loose then the adhesion does not render the behaima a triefa if the adhesion is VERY adhesive then we assume it is a healed hole in the lung which render the animal not kosher. BUT who can render this mild distinction? Unfortunately NOT MANY. As the rema says one must be a yorey Shmaim Mrtabim. Therefore in Ameriva we rather not deal with it
10
Jul 03, 2009 at 11:55 AM Dovid Says:
I believe the Rama says specifically that we Ashkenazim do not need glatt. When I grew up in Boro Park the top butcher was on 13th Avenue called Kinor David and he was not specifically glatt.
And what exactly is a glatt kosher chicken? No such thing. It's either kosher or not. Glatt is only for beef.
11
Jul 03, 2009 at 12:24 PM robroy560 Says:
I'm confused. I thought cholov Yisrael is required, but we do not have to hold by it in the US because the FDA, USDA or what ever gov't agency, only allows milk from a kosher animal. So you are only going to see cow, goat, sheep or buffalo milk in milk, cheese, etc.
As someone pointed out earlier, glatt can only apply to meat. Glatt chicken is something I laugh about. According to my understanding, it's impossible to have all the kosher meat that is labeled as glatt as real glatt. An uncle of mine, A"H, told me that years back a kashrut group approached Hebrew National to have them make a different branded line that was glatt. HN was the biggest kosher deli producer at the time. They came back to the agency and said there is not enough glatt meat on the market to produce a quantity that would make sense for all of us.
I refuse to buy cholov Yisrael products because it's a rip off an it spoils easily. If the O-U, O-K and Kof-K certify cholov stam, that's fine for me. Even organic cholov stam is less and it has a long shelf life.
I'm not a deli person anymore because it's not good for you (nitrites, sodium, etc.), but the few times I eat it, I will by HN. Today it's under the triangle-k. It's not glatt, but it comes in handy when you are travelling and no kosher meat is available.
As far as the vegatarians, I learned how to eat that way too. It's not a bad way of life, but some meat and chicken are still good to have - in moderation/
12
Jul 03, 2009 at 12:37 PM Anonymous Says:
glatt is only sieyech to beef --NOT CHICKEN -lets not eat meat you will see how fast the price will come down--
13
Jul 03, 2009 at 12:34 PM Anonymous Says:
“ why are so many people makbid to eat glatt?
glatt is not for everyone. There are people that eat cholov stam there are people that don't eat only pas yisroel,
glatt is just another chumrah like cholov yisroel and pas yisroel.
THE POINT OF MY COMMENT IS NOT TO DEBATE IF CHOLOV STAM IS KOSHER OR NOT.
My point is, is for those people that eat cholov stam , let them also eat non-glatt.
I'M IN NO WAY TRYING TO PUT DOWN THOSE THAT EAT CHOLOV STAM, i actually also eat cholov stam and i would also eat non-glatt if it was available.
Now i come to my second point.
why is non-glatt with a decent hechsher non existant??
answer?? $$$$$ ”
forget about chalav stam wich it says in shulchan aruch is assur and R Moshe let in AMERICA and nowadays may be diffrent because they make cows a treifah why do you want non glatt proably the same answer you have for why it is not available $$$$ if you thought of treif as poison you would care much more you wouldnt say its not for me big deal maybe its poison
14
Jul 03, 2009 at 01:16 PM Milhouse Says:
“ eating non glatttoday (at least in the US) today is different then non glatt back in the old country. It used to be non glatt was that put simply they never check if the animal was glatt or not. These days non glatt is from those animals that were checked and couldnt be glatt so they sell it as regular ”
This is not true. A mammal's lungs must ALWAYS be checked. If you haven't checked, why do you assume the worst that could happen is that it might not be glatt? There's a good chance that it's TREIF. There was never a time when a cow could be sold as "non-glatt" by not checking the lungs.
But generally speaking birds' lungs do not have to be checked, and we assume they're glatt. (The heter for non-glatt meat applies only to adult mammals. There is no such thing as a bird which is non-glatt but kosher.) In the USA the only exception is male turkeys, whose lungs need to be checked. It seems that in Israel treifos are slightly more common than in the USA or old-time Europe, so the mehadrin hechsherim check each bird for the two most common problems.
15
Jul 03, 2009 at 01:08 PM Milhouse Says:
“ The term "glatt" is only in beef, where onw checks the longs, chickens is kosher or non kosher ”
Didn't you read the article? It claims that in Israel the mehadrin hechsherim do check the chickens' lungs, and don't rely on the assumption that problems there are a miut she'eino motzuy. It appears that this new method is a compromise between the two positions: instead of just assuming that problems are a miut she'eino motzuy, they test that assumption for each batch. If it proves valid, then they pass all the chickens, but if it proves invalid then they don't. This mirrors the method commonly used for vegetables.
And because they're setting a bar of 1% for "eino motzuy", rather than the generally accepted 10%, if they do find a problem the chickens are still OK for the general market. Of course if they find more then 10% of a batch has problems then each bird needs to be inspected individually or else the whole batch must be sold as treif. But that's very unlikely to happen.
This is all assuming this article is true. I have serious doubts about that, but that's for another comment.
16
Jul 03, 2009 at 12:34 PM Anonymous Says:
“ why are so many people makbid to eat glatt?
glatt is not for everyone. There are people that eat cholov stam there are people that don't eat only pas yisroel,
glatt is just another chumrah like cholov yisroel and pas yisroel.
THE POINT OF MY COMMENT IS NOT TO DEBATE IF CHOLOV STAM IS KOSHER OR NOT.
My point is, is for those people that eat cholov stam , let them also eat non-glatt.
I'M IN NO WAY TRYING TO PUT DOWN THOSE THAT EAT CHOLOV STAM, i actually also eat cholov stam and i would also eat non-glatt if it was available.
Now i come to my second point.
why is non-glatt with a decent hechsher non existant??
answer?? $$$$$ ”
forget about chalav stam wich it says in shulchan aruch is assur and R Moshe let in AMERICA and nowadays may be diffrent because they make cows a treifah why do you want non glatt proably the same answer you have for why it is not available $$$$ if you thought of treif as poison you would care much more you wouldnt say its not for me big deal maybe its poison
17
Jul 03, 2009 at 01:20 PM Milhouse Says:
“ I believe the Rama says specifically that we Ashkenazim do not need glatt. When I grew up in Boro Park the top butcher was on 13th Avenue called Kinor David and he was not specifically glatt.
And what exactly is a glatt kosher chicken? No such thing. It's either kosher or not. Glatt is only for beef. ”
This is a common misconception. On the contrary, glatt is a REQUIREMENT for birds. It's not "either kosher or not", it's "either glatt or treif". Every kosher bird is glatt, by definition. But in most of the world we cheat; non-glatt lungs in chickens are so uncommon that we don't have to check for them, and we can just ASSUME they are glatt. Of course if we look and find that it is not glatt, then it's treif. But some mehadrin do check, and that is what this article is about.
18
Jul 03, 2009 at 01:35 PM Milhouse Says:
“ I believe the Rama says specifically that we Ashkenazim do not need glatt. When I grew up in Boro Park the top butcher was on 13th Avenue called Kinor David and he was not specifically glatt.
And what exactly is a glatt kosher chicken? No such thing. It's either kosher or not. Glatt is only for beef. ”
All my previous comments have been based on the assumption that this article is true. But as I mentioned earlier, I have serious doubts about that. I advise people to steer clear of ANY product from this company, "of hanegev", because there are reports that they have been forging foreign hechsherim on chicken they produce for export. Of Hanegev chicken has been found for sale in France, with the hechsher of R Hilel Pewzner, who was a very respected rov hamachshir based in Paris. There are only two problems: R Pewzner passed away a year ago, and the rov who took over his hechsherim reports that he never gave any hechsher in Israel, and certainly not to this company. Therefore his name on these chickens must have been forged, and a company that does such things can't be trusted at all.
19
Jul 03, 2009 at 01:33 PM anonymous Says:
“ The term "glatt" is only in beef, where onw checks the longs, chickens is kosher or non kosher ”
you are right and you see what nonsense you can sell to the oylam golem
20
Jul 03, 2009 at 03:01 PM NW YID Says:
Sampling will not work due to generic variability and environmental conditions. Unless one raises offspring (Cows + Chickens) via artificial genetic procedures (cloning), sampling will not work.. If one truly desires "Glatt" certification, taking a 10% sample and applying these finds to the entire population (herd) will not work. Each animal has the potential to have genetic defects/disease. This can only be guaranteed if genetic cloning is used to produce a population that is gentically identical, and then one would have to strive to provide "identical" environmental conditions for each member of the herd, even this would be challenging... Does not add up to use a sample population to indicate the presence of disease and rule out Treif conditions....
21
Jul 03, 2009 at 02:55 PM Oy Vey Says:
Ignorance is bliss!
R' Moshe Feinstein only allowed "bdi eved" choolv stam in the USA. Read the Tshuva!
Glatt in America is Kosher not real glatt. It got the term glatt 60 years ago to avoid union and mafia problems. By claiming they were not plain kosher, but glatt kosher they got around restrictions on who they were able to use for shochtim and bodkim.
To those who think it's a"tax", "Wake up and die right!"
22
Jul 03, 2009 at 02:36 PM Anonymous Says:
“ All my previous comments have been based on the assumption that this article is true. But as I mentioned earlier, I have serious doubts about that. I advise people to steer clear of ANY product from this company, "of hanegev", because there are reports that they have been forging foreign hechsherim on chicken they produce for export. Of Hanegev chicken has been found for sale in France, with the hechsher of R Hilel Pewzner, who was a very respected rov hamachshir based in Paris. There are only two problems: R Pewzner passed away a year ago, and the rov who took over his hechsherim reports that he never gave any hechsher in Israel, and certainly not to this company. Therefore his name on these chickens must have been forged, and a company that does such things can't be trusted at all. ”
For a change, Millhouse has at least some of his facts correct. The fraud division of the Rabbanut of Israel has reported that they are concerned that “Of Hanegev” has illegally used the symbol of the CHK – Beis Din of Crown Heights - on poultry meant for export out of Israel. They may also illegally be using labels of “Vaad Rabbanei Chabad, under supervision of Rabbi Hillel Posner.” This alert can be found at"
http://www.kashrut.com/Alerts/?alert=A2768
23
Jul 03, 2009 at 02:26 PM Anonymous Says:
“ All my previous comments have been based on the assumption that this article is true. But as I mentioned earlier, I have serious doubts about that. I advise people to steer clear of ANY product from this company, "of hanegev", because there are reports that they have been forging foreign hechsherim on chicken they produce for export. Of Hanegev chicken has been found for sale in France, with the hechsher of R Hilel Pewzner, who was a very respected rov hamachshir based in Paris. There are only two problems: R Pewzner passed away a year ago, and the rov who took over his hechsherim reports that he never gave any hechsher in Israel, and certainly not to this company. Therefore his name on these chickens must have been forged, and a company that does such things can't be trusted at all. ”
What is wrong with using the name of a deceased mashgiach as long as there is full disclosure of the rav's passing? If his hashgacha was good enough while he was alive, what has changed in one year??
24
Jul 03, 2009 at 03:36 PM KosherSkeptic Says:
#15, the 10% you're referring too is the shitas Mishkenos Yakov but it has long been ignored for due to the Metzios nowadays in Chickens. But Having said this, go around this summer in the CHASSIDISHE, LITVISHE, YESHIVISHE camps, both BOYS & GIRLS, where they lowered SUBSTANTIALLY Kashrus standards, very substantially just for ONE REASON!!!!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Can't name names, but inquire diligantly and under the scope you'll conclude that those chickens in Israel too are super KOSHER ! for the same reason $$$$$$$$$$$$ HURAH TO THE OU !!!!!!
25
Jul 03, 2009 at 04:10 PM Milhouse Says:
“ #15, the 10% you're referring too is the shitas Mishkenos Yakov but it has long been ignored for due to the Metzios nowadays in Chickens. But Having said this, go around this summer in the CHASSIDISHE, LITVISHE, YESHIVISHE camps, both BOYS & GIRLS, where they lowered SUBSTANTIALLY Kashrus standards, very substantially just for ONE REASON!!!!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Can't name names, but inquire diligantly and under the scope you'll conclude that those chickens in Israel too are super KOSHER ! for the same reason $$$$$$$$$$$$ HURAH TO THE OU !!!!!! ”
What are you talking about? In most countries we don't check chickens at all! Not 15%, not 10%, not even 1%. We just assume that they're kosher unless we happen to find something wrong in them.
26
Jul 03, 2009 at 04:08 PM Milhouse Says:
“ What is wrong with using the name of a deceased mashgiach as long as there is full disclosure of the rav's passing? If his hashgacha was good enough while he was alive, what has changed in one year?? ”
How can he give hashgacha on chickens that weren't even hatched when he died?
27
Jul 03, 2009 at 04:07 PM Milhouse Says:
“ For a change, Millhouse has at least some of his facts correct. The fraud division of the Rabbanut of Israel has reported that they are concerned that “Of Hanegev” has illegally used the symbol of the CHK – Beis Din of Crown Heights - on poultry meant for export out of Israel. They may also illegally be using labels of “Vaad Rabbanei Chabad, under supervision of Rabbi Hillel Posner.” This alert can be found at"
http://www.kashrut.com/Alerts/?alert=A2768 ”
As usual, I have ALL my facts correct, and you do not. There is no such person as Rabbi Hillel Posner giving a hechsher, and never has been. The Rabbanut alert gave his name correctly, but all you know is from someone who can't even read.
28
Jul 03, 2009 at 04:04 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Ignorance is bliss!
R' Moshe Feinstein only allowed "bdi eved" choolv stam in the USA. Read the Tshuva!
Glatt in America is Kosher not real glatt. It got the term glatt 60 years ago to avoid union and mafia problems. By claiming they were not plain kosher, but glatt kosher they got around restrictions on who they were able to use for shochtim and bodkim.
To those who think it's a"tax", "Wake up and die right!" ”
Wrong. R Moshe's heter was NOT bedieved. You have clearly not read the teshuvos yourself, or you'd know that the heter was lechatchilah.
29
Jul 03, 2009 at 05:04 PM chusid Says:
You people who think it's all about the money make me sick. You think that everything you know, is all you need to know. The Ba'al Shem Tov ZY"A in addition to being the founder of chasidus also started a revolution in kashrus. Many of the chumros followed today only started to be enforced by him. One example is glatt.
Stop being moitzy shem rah on our rabbonim.
AND NO, I DO NOT WORK IN KASHRUS!
30
Jul 04, 2009 at 04:02 PM brisker Says:
“ The Old Boys network won't give up their profits and allow this. ”
Please do not make comments when you are ignorant of the facts.
Today, the average length of time it takes from egg to the shechitah is 6 weeks. this is the reason they are not very healthy and there is a miyut ha matzui of treifus in the lungs in most shechitas it averages about 5%. This requires that every ling has to be checked and taking a small sample from the entire batch is not good enough. It is a problem worldwide and as far as I am aware the Eidah Ha Chareidis were the first to discover this problem. Now the other Mehadrin shechitas follow their example.
I am not aware of the figures, but I am sure that organic chickens will not have these problems in the lungs. I am not up to date what the Mehadrin shechita boards in England or America do but I am sure that the Satmar and New Square follow the proceedures of the Eidah Ha Chareidis.
I was once at an Assifah where the Mashgiach from Lakewood Rav Salomon spoke to a kehillah that was having a major upheaval about the Shechitah. He sided with the ones that imported the Shochtim of the Eidah Ha Chareidis once every three months to to shecht chickens and beef and lamb. He quotes the Aruch Ha Shulchan who says that the reason the generations of today go off the derech and are not mekabel mussar is because they are not careful with kashrus issues. Loosely translated it means that people are prepared to eat anything as long as it says kosher or glatt on the labels.
31
Jul 04, 2009 at 09:51 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Wrong. R Moshe's heter was NOT bedieved. You have clearly not read the teshuvos yourself, or you'd know that the heter was lechatchilah. ”
Who cares whether Rev Moshe's teshuva on this issue was bedieved or was lechatchilah. It makes absolutly no difference to a frumme yid worried about be mehader on anything to do with kashruth.
32
Jul 05, 2009 at 01:28 AM Zahava Says:
What does the Vaad of the 5 towns and Rabbi Eisen have to say about this?
Rabbi Eisen is an expert in chickens!
33
Jul 05, 2009 at 08:05 AM Anonymous Says:
“ If someone is so worried about both cost and kashrut, they should be a vegetarian. There is no requirement for a Jew to eat meat. ”
What about shabbus and yom tov?
34
Jul 05, 2009 at 01:06 PM Three-Toed Tree Toad Says:
Proof-positive that we need good secular education for observant Jews. The rabbis here are doing simple statistical sampling. They're doing it wrong because they don't have any formal training in mathematics, but at least they're trying to use their brains as something besides tape recorders.
Simply put, with true random sampling of the dead chickens you can select a sample which will tell you, with any degree of confidence you want, the chance that any other bird in the sample passes your test.
35
Jul 05, 2009 at 12:43 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Please do not make comments when you are ignorant of the facts.
Today, the average length of time it takes from egg to the shechitah is 6 weeks. this is the reason they are not very healthy and there is a miyut ha matzui of treifus in the lungs in most shechitas it averages about 5%. This requires that every ling has to be checked and taking a small sample from the entire batch is not good enough. It is a problem worldwide and as far as I am aware the Eidah Ha Chareidis were the first to discover this problem. Now the other Mehadrin shechitas follow their example.
I am not aware of the figures, but I am sure that organic chickens will not have these problems in the lungs. I am not up to date what the Mehadrin shechita boards in England or America do but I am sure that the Satmar and New Square follow the proceedures of the Eidah Ha Chareidis.
I was once at an Assifah where the Mashgiach from Lakewood Rav Salomon spoke to a kehillah that was having a major upheaval about the Shechitah. He sided with the ones that imported the Shochtim of the Eidah Ha Chareidis once every three months to to shecht chickens and beef and lamb. He quotes the Aruch Ha Shulchan who says that the reason the generations of today go off the derech and are not mekabel mussar is because they are not careful with kashrus issues. Loosely translated it means that people are prepared to eat anything as long as it says kosher or glatt on the labels.
”
5% is not a miut hamotzuy.
36
Jul 05, 2009 at 03:03 PM Avrohom Abba Says:
Rather than be bothered with all the problems and solutions, and all the questions and answers about shchita and mooms and treif and all the hechshers and all the prices, it sounds like it will be a wise decision to be a vegetarian, except for Shabbos and Yom Tov to eat chicken or meat once in a while. It would probably also be better for health.
37
Jul 05, 2009 at 02:28 PM Mehudar Says:
All the Chareisher hechsherim in Israel check every lung in every chicken or turkey. They also check every bird's feet for Tzomes Hagiddim . The OU process is simply not mehadrim.
The above process was installed by the gedolei haraabonim in Israel like Rav Yitzhak Weiss (baal Minchas Yitzhak) zal and Rav Meir Brandsdorfer zal. This was based on a psak from Rav Henoch Pdwa zal from Engaland. With the OU method they are disputing the Gedolei Haposkim.
To imply that checking every chicken is superfuous and an unnecessary exxpense is to question abovementioned Rabbonim.
Of course the OU is entiltled to their kulas. But they should not label the chickens or Turkeys as Mehadrin or Glatt as this is simply misleading
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Jul 05, 2009 at 02:12 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Proof-positive that we need good secular education for observant Jews. The rabbis here are doing simple statistical sampling. They're doing it wrong because they don't have any formal training in mathematics, but at least they're trying to use their brains as something besides tape recorders.
Simply put, with true random sampling of the dead chickens you can select a sample which will tell you, with any degree of confidence you want, the chance that any other bird in the sample passes your test. ”
They're not doing it wrong. They're doing it the same way we check lettuce. We pick three heads from each crate and check them, and if we find nothing in them the whole crate is kosher.
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Jul 06, 2009 at 12:19 AM me Says:
# SimchaB
"However given their propensity for label switching and general confusion when you bought glatt you might have been getting non Glatt."
Aside from being motzei shem ra (libeling) Rubashkin with no proof (I'm sure your proud to kick a guy when he's down) What was the point of this comment?
Almost all of Reb Moshe's tshuvahs on the subject of Cholov Stam say either "ba'al nefesh yachmit al otzmo" Or if the price is close it would be a shame not to buy the cholov yisroel. While he also says that one who uses cholov stam cannot be criticize, all considered, the heter is slightly less than lechatchilah. The heter is also ONLY ON PRODUCTS PRODUCED IN THE USA AND SUBJECT TO FDA OR USDA INSPECTION.
Next case the innards of almost all chickens are checked at the KJ plant.
Another fact: while Glatt applies to mammals and not birds, there is no such thing as Glatt veal. A youg calf is supposed to be healthy. If it has even one sircha it doesn't become non-glatt, it becomes treif. There is kosher and there is treif among kelbelech. There is no in between of no-glatt.