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London - Charedi Educators: Intercom Announcements On Train Dangerous To Torah Hashkafah |
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Apparently, Tube drivers have been given a book of quotes which they are being encouraged to read from over the intercom to break the monotony of their passengers' journey.
(Apparently it's ok to drive a train and read a book at the same time - although any car driver attempting the same would be arrested. This might also explain a lot about train delays.)
The quotes come from Shakespeare, Gandhi and Einstein, among others, but according to Hamodia, "may oppose Torah oppose Torah hashkafah [outlook] or even be divrei kefirah [heresy]".
"I would advise parents not to let their children travel alone, so that if they hear anything contrary to daas Torah [the Torah view] the person accompanying the child would give the Torah's view on the subject", said a "leading mechanech" (educator).
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Read Comments (54) — Post Yours »
1
Jul 03, 2009 at 12:28 PM Anonymous Says:
I would avoid travel on those lines for fear of accidents. rather play soft low tone music without words. or keep silent so commutere can proceed with their own conversation or stuff
2
Jul 03, 2009 at 12:18 PM moshe mulva Says:
How can you say such a thing?
3
Jul 03, 2009 at 12:17 PM Anonymous Says:
I think life is dangerous. No children should have to be born in this kind of a world
4
Jul 03, 2009 at 12:08 PM joel rich Says:
said a "leading mechanech"
==============
Who wished to remain anonymous because?
KT
5
Jul 03, 2009 at 12:06 PM liepa Says:
How about just don't pay attention to them. Otherwise, 'Ain l'dvar soif' because walking outside especially during the summer time might have a worse effect (in a different way) than those subway announcements.
6
Jul 03, 2009 at 12:58 PM Anonymous Says:
Will people stop trying to micromanage the entire world! We should all leave the U.S. In December because of all the holiday decorations and music everywhere.
7
Jul 03, 2009 at 12:53 PM Anonymous Says:
Your chidren will hear or see things contrary to Torah view anywhere they go. This particular situation has an advantage - the parents know what is going on. But do you really think that they were safe from any influence while traveling the trains alone through the city before this started?
Parents have to always be aware and discuss hashkafos with their children on a constant basis. Protect them as much as possible for as long as possible. Eventually, though, they will be exposed to the world around them. Make sure that their hashkafos are solid and unbreakable before this happens. And make sure that they will know who to go to with their questions, and that they are not afraid to ask. And, of course, daven to Hashem.
8
Jul 03, 2009 at 12:37 PM Anonymous Says:
And if they travel with someone else, they will still hear it??
9
Jul 03, 2009 at 01:08 PM Anonymous Says:
Much more annoying is the seasonal Xmas music that some stores play. Even some Jewish owned stores play it. OY!
10
Jul 03, 2009 at 01:04 PM moshe Says:
If we shouldn't let them ride the train because of what they might hear, we shouldn't let them go anywhere. I've heard radio in supermarkets, barber shops and dentists offices and my bank has CNN playing. Best thing is to never leave the house!
11
Jul 03, 2009 at 01:03 PM Strange! Says:
Wadda yu talkn about???
Which kids listens to the announcements in the Tube? I'm sure none did before this issue became publicized. Now even I’m curious about what the conductor might chas vishalom be talking about.
12
Jul 03, 2009 at 01:00 PM One mom Says:
Aderaba, send your kids with the subway, out on the city streets, let them absorb some 'culture' that they don't chas vesholom grow up fanatics.
13
Jul 03, 2009 at 12:28 PM Open Orthodox Says:
I am in complete and utter disgust. The Charedi mindset has turned to this- declaring Shakespeare and Gandhi off limits and a danger to hashkafah? If the Rambam were alive today, his books would be burned all over again by these black-hatted goons. Same goes for Reb Chaim Hirschenson, and many other gedolei yisrael. Why can't people learn to think for themselves? This is nothing less than complete and utter mind control, repugnant to the spirit of Judaism. Read Rabbi S.R. Hirsch- Religion Allied With Progress.
14
Jul 03, 2009 at 12:02 PM Anonymous Says:
im sick of these charedis.learn to live in the world that g-d gave and have self control.
15
Jul 03, 2009 at 11:50 AM Y from BP Says:
...and since when are the parents allowed to listen to heresy?
16
Jul 03, 2009 at 03:17 PM Aharon Says:
We should sue the tube
17
Jul 03, 2009 at 03:12 PM sumgai Says:
“ I am in complete and utter disgust. The Charedi mindset has turned to this- declaring Shakespeare and Gandhi off limits and a danger to hashkafah? If the Rambam were alive today, his books would be burned all over again by these black-hatted goons. Same goes for Reb Chaim Hirschenson, and many other gedolei yisrael. Why can't people learn to think for themselves? This is nothing less than complete and utter mind control, repugnant to the spirit of Judaism. Read Rabbi S.R. Hirsch- Religion Allied With Progress. ”
so we should think for ourselves, by letting hirsch and shakespeare and gandhi think for us? if anyone is going to do my thinking for me, i'll leave it up to G-D and legitimate rabbonim.
18
Jul 03, 2009 at 02:54 PM Anonymous Says:
“ im sick of these charedis.learn to live in the world that g-d gave and have self control. ”
take you kids to nude beaches also gods creations
19
Jul 03, 2009 at 02:54 PM Anonymous Says:
all of you are totally crazy in my humble opinion.
first every person is allowed to set up his house the way he wants to and they can choose not to want to hear these stuff.
still the fact that its being advertised this way is ridiculous just as much .
plus since when have our parents the answers to all of the bad hashkafas ? since they were not allowed to ask questions them selves, learn your kid to be comfortable enough to speak to you whatever he likes and ask you whatever he feels like asking, and don't shush him up just because you have no answer (which is the norm in black hatter world).
im from the black hatter community and i had to go down all the way because i was not answered to and was made fun of for having questions.
be open minded and be close to your kid on HIS terms and all these problems will vanish themselves
20
Jul 03, 2009 at 02:45 PM esther Says:
“ ...and since when are the parents allowed to listen to heresy? ”
there is no comparison to a hopefully mature adult hearing/seeing something haipach hatorah and a impressionable youth doing the same.however ,that being said, it is impossible to keep children away form every billboard,instance of blaring music,someone cursing in a store etc.we can use these as opportunities to explain how beautiful,holy and timeless yiddishkait is.
21
Jul 03, 2009 at 02:39 PM Anonymous Says:
There is no issur against hearing "heresy". The issur is believing it or repeating it. I can listed all day to someone who says moshe ra'beinu was a ben noach but that doesn't make it true. VIN routinely allows yiddin to post all sorts of nareshkeit in the spirit of a free exchange of ideas. About every other posting is someone call another poster an apikores.
22
Jul 03, 2009 at 02:25 PM Use Your Head Says:
In response, I would say that parents should not let their children travel alone on the Internet, lest they read such statements such as this proclamation, which indeed "may oppose Torah hashkafah [outlook]"....
23
Jul 03, 2009 at 02:21 PM Anonymous Says:
Somone is "planting" these phony articles to make the hareidi rabbonim look like a bunch of idiots. No rebbe, even the most machmir, would issue such guidance to parents. It is either a joke or somthing was lost in translation. If true, there is at least one rebbe badly in need of help.
24
Jul 03, 2009 at 02:15 PM RebYid Says:
As a resident of LA, I am completely outraged by the Chareidi bashing on this specific topic. The billboards we see here invade our homes, our communities and our minds. Why should any children be exposed to today's crazy culture? We must protect our kids from thinking certain ideals are the norm for Jewish people. When you walk out in the street today there is no resemblance of decency in dress code. If your attitude is, "If you can't beat them, join them", we will certainly lose our identity as jews. RSR"H ZT"L, would have strong words for today's culture. We are not living in the era of the Renaisance, we are living in a decreped society with no boundries. Hashem Yeracheim. We don't aim to blind fold our children, but we do want them to be dicerning in judgement. Today's children can't decipher between TV and reality. It is our job to educate them in the Derech Hatorah.
25
Jul 03, 2009 at 02:05 PM power up Says:
I would not let my kids travel on the train in london in general, the unpure things you see there, is not for a yiddish child, its worse then NY, full of advertisements and other things
26
Jul 03, 2009 at 02:00 PM moshe mulva Says:
I wonder what was 'usuitable'...?....perhaps there was a public service announcement about the importance of getting a high school or college diploma...Chas v'shalom...or help with , I can hardly say it...help with job placement...loy a'leynu....that is probably the reason there is no subway in lakewood or B'nei B'rak....the risk is too great.
27
Jul 03, 2009 at 01:45 PM Anonymous Says:
Is our chinuch so ineffective and our emunah so weak that some announcements on the subway are cause for concern? And have schools and parents created an atmosphere in which the child is scared to ask "Who was Ghandi?", "did Einstein believe in Hashem?" "If not, why not?"
28
Jul 03, 2009 at 01:42 PM londoner Says:
I travel the trains alot, firstly the microphones are very unclear secondly they see with their eyes MUCH MUCH worse stuff than wat they hear. Wat one sees marks a much larger impression than wat they hear, so should we just avoid travelling and staying in bed all day coz looking out our window is also bound to see disgusting sites. And it's not just kids but adults too. This is the world tuff, have your own self control.
29
Jul 03, 2009 at 03:43 PM Anonymous Says:
“ so we should think for ourselves, by letting hirsch and shakespeare and gandhi think for us? if anyone is going to do my thinking for me, i'll leave it up to G-D and legitimate rabbonim. ”
Legitimate rabbonim? Like who? The unnamed mechanech who refuses to list his name here? I am a rabbi and dayan, learned in the halacha, and I also learned through all of Seder Moed, Nashim and Nezikin be iyun. I would never issue a ruling like this. Perhaps it is because I look at the entirety of Machsheves Yisroel and allow all of our sages to guide my perspectives on things, including Rav Hirsch, whom you refer to as "hirsch," Rav Dovid Tzvi Hoffman, Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchik, and others, including Litvishe and Chassidishe gedolim.
30
Jul 03, 2009 at 01:41 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I am in complete and utter disgust. The Charedi mindset has turned to this- declaring Shakespeare and Gandhi off limits and a danger to hashkafah? If the Rambam were alive today, his books would be burned all over again by these black-hatted goons. Same goes for Reb Chaim Hirschenson, and many other gedolei yisrael. Why can't people learn to think for themselves? This is nothing less than complete and utter mind control, repugnant to the spirit of Judaism. Read Rabbi S.R. Hirsch- Religion Allied With Progress. ”
Grow Up and remove your goyisha mindset. obviously you are more "modern" then orthodox in your outlook. Of course Ghandi is dangerous! He taught things contrary to Torah. Does that mean all Ghnadi teachings are bad? NO! But we dont want our children to walk alone in the dark without the proper protection. Get it? We know we cant micromanage the world but we know we can protect our children from schmutz as much as possible!
31
Jul 03, 2009 at 04:17 PM Raphael Kaufman Says:
“ so we should think for ourselves, by letting hirsch and shakespeare and gandhi think for us? if anyone is going to do my thinking for me, i'll leave it up to G-D and legitimate rabbonim. ”
I'm glad that you're willing to let someone think for you since you appear incapable of doing it yourself.
32
Jul 03, 2009 at 04:19 PM Sumgai Says:
“ Legitimate rabbonim? Like who? The unnamed mechanech who refuses to list his name here? I am a rabbi and dayan, learned in the halacha, and I also learned through all of Seder Moed, Nashim and Nezikin be iyun. I would never issue a ruling like this. Perhaps it is because I look at the entirety of Machsheves Yisroel and allow all of our sages to guide my perspectives on things, including Rav Hirsch, whom you refer to as "hirsch," Rav Dovid Tzvi Hoffman, Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchik, and others, including Litvishe and Chassidishe gedolim. ”
I doubt that you are actually a dayan, or "learned in the halacha," but i'll respond anyway. I was not commenting about the ruling: to be sure, the advertisements in subways are likely much more harmful to children than a couple lines of shakespeare played out over the PA. I was, rather, reacting to a person with the chutzpah to call chareidim (read: everyone who doesn't hold by his modernish perspective) "black hatted goons" and to tell us that we should "think for ourselves." Read a shtikl chumash: every time the Yidden think for themselves instead of listening to the Bashefer, they get into serious trouble. Think about it, for yourself.
(this time, with my handle)
33
Jul 03, 2009 at 04:17 PM Raphael Kaufman Says:
“ so we should think for ourselves, by letting hirsch and shakespeare and gandhi think for us? if anyone is going to do my thinking for me, i'll leave it up to G-D and legitimate rabbonim. ”
I'm glad that you're willing to let someone think for you since you appear incapable of doing it yourself.
34
Jul 03, 2009 at 05:45 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Grow Up and remove your goyisha mindset. obviously you are more "modern" then orthodox in your outlook. Of course Ghandi is dangerous! He taught things contrary to Torah. Does that mean all Ghnadi teachings are bad? NO! But we dont want our children to walk alone in the dark without the proper protection. Get it? We know we cant micromanage the world but we know we can protect our children from schmutz as much as possible! ”
how can you call ghandi, shmutz?? you're entitled not to agree with his philosophies, but he was one of the towering and most influential figures of the 20th century. your children will think you a weak, ignorant fool if your reaction to the 99percent of the world that is not haredi is to rubbish it. do yourself a favor, get an education and develop some fortitude and teach your kinder properly!
35
Jul 03, 2009 at 06:19 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Is our chinuch so ineffective and our emunah so weak that some announcements on the subway are cause for concern? And have schools and parents created an atmosphere in which the child is scared to ask "Who was Ghandi?", "did Einstein believe in Hashem?" "If not, why not?" ”
people who write the way you do are extremely dangerous, they think they're just being open minded but in reality its all part of the yetzer horahs big plan, and if you don't throw away those thoughts imediately sooner then latter he will get you and turn you into a thru & thru apikoras
36
Jul 03, 2009 at 06:46 PM Milhouse Says:
“ how can you call ghandi, shmutz?? you're entitled not to agree with his philosophies, but he was one of the towering and most influential figures of the 20th century. your children will think you a weak, ignorant fool if your reaction to the 99percent of the world that is not haredi is to rubbish it. do yourself a favor, get an education and develop some fortitude and teach your kinder properly! ”
Mao was also "one of the towering and most influential figures of the 20th century". How does that make him not shmutz? Gandhi was a pacifist, who thought the Nazis should not be fought, and advised the Jews to let themselves be slaughtered without resistance. That's a disgusting philosophy.
37
Jul 03, 2009 at 06:45 PM Anonymous Says:
“ people who write the way you do are extremely dangerous, they think they're just being open minded but in reality its all part of the yetzer horahs big plan, and if you don't throw away those thoughts imediately sooner then latter he will get you and turn you into a thru & thru apikoras ”
It is you who is apikoras. So timid and afraid of Hashem's glorious creation that you cower like a child. You are the one with the yetzer hora -- and it has terrified you into doing everything that is the antithesis of what Judaism is supposed to be as you live in your grim fossilized shell that must make Hashem cry.
38
Jul 03, 2009 at 06:42 PM Anonymous Says:
“ people who write the way you do are extremely dangerous, they think they're just being open minded but in reality its all part of the yetzer horahs big plan, and if you don't throw away those thoughts imediately sooner then latter he will get you and turn you into a thru & thru apikoras ”
It's true. In my opinion, we should lock our children in our basements and repeat to them torah-true hashkafa thoughts only until they are 18. Then they can get married and keep their own children locked away from the world for fear of chas vesholom polutting their minds.
39
Jul 03, 2009 at 07:20 PM Anonymous Says:
“ It is you who is apikoras. So timid and afraid of Hashem's glorious creation that you cower like a child. You are the one with the yetzer hora -- and it has terrified you into doing everything that is the antithesis of what Judaism is supposed to be as you live in your grim fossilized shell that must make Hashem cry. ”
ok, I read your comment now six times realy trying to understand waht your saying, and your just not making any sens to me, please explain how my not wanting to listen to somebodys reason to why he dosent believe in god makes me an apikores, and what the yetzer horah gains from me not listening to him,
if your gonna write such a hateful comment you have to justify it by explaining what you mean
40
Jul 04, 2009 at 03:34 PM Anonymous Says:
“ As a resident of LA, I am completely outraged by the Chareidi bashing on this specific topic. The billboards we see here invade our homes, our communities and our minds. Why should any children be exposed to today's crazy culture? We must protect our kids from thinking certain ideals are the norm for Jewish people. When you walk out in the street today there is no resemblance of decency in dress code. If your attitude is, "If you can't beat them, join them", we will certainly lose our identity as jews. RSR"H ZT"L, would have strong words for today's culture. We are not living in the era of the Renaisance, we are living in a decreped society with no boundries. Hashem Yeracheim. We don't aim to blind fold our children, but we do want them to be dicerning in judgement. Today's children can't decipher between TV and reality. It is our job to educate them in the Derech Hatorah. ”
So if it's so bad there, why not move out of LA? There's no one forcing you to stay there!
41
Jul 04, 2009 at 09:10 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Mao was also "one of the towering and most influential figures of the 20th century". How does that make him not shmutz? Gandhi was a pacifist, who thought the Nazis should not be fought, and advised the Jews to let themselves be slaughtered without resistance. That's a disgusting philosophy. ”
you're comparing Ghandi to Mao???
Are you're also suggesting that Ghandi be measured in his entirety by one off-color comment that he may or may not have made? You don't think that's childish and simplistic in the extreme?
And, yes, you should also learn about Mao. He was a monster, but an essential part of the brutality of the 20th Century.
42
Jul 04, 2009 at 09:16 PM Anonymous Says:
I hope there is highly leading mchanech accompanying this leading when he/she rides the train.
43
Jul 04, 2009 at 10:59 PM Anonymous Says:
Why all the hype??? If you liked the advice from this "mechanech" the follow it - if you then just don't and shut up!
44
Jul 05, 2009 at 02:56 AM shlomo zalman Says:
“ If we shouldn't let them ride the train because of what they might hear, we shouldn't let them go anywhere. I've heard radio in supermarkets, barber shops and dentists offices and my bank has CNN playing. Best thing is to never leave the house! ”
A true Jewish home should not be exposed at all to the outside world . The chitzoinius is the pnimiyus. To avoid any exposure to non Torah hashkafos, all Torah true Jews should live on another planet. I suggest men on Mars and women on Venus.
45
Jul 05, 2009 at 01:15 AM RebYid Says:
“ So if it's so bad there, why not move out of LA? There's no one forcing you to stay there!
”
Perhaps I live in a bubble with an economy crisis that simply has not affected the rest of the world! I am talking about the escalation of crudeness that has become previllent. No, not all of us have the choice to just get up and leave our homes and businesses. Only a person who actually enjoys the surrounding perversion would tell all the G-d fearing party poopers to "leave", in reply to a very real problem. Shavuah Tov!!!
46
Jul 05, 2009 at 12:26 AM Rochel Says:
I take bus and metro everyday, and trust me, even though there is no such announcement here, I can tell you that just people around you talking about their personnal, depraved life is enough, I always listen to my Ipod with my own kosher music so I don't "need" to heard them ;)
47
Jul 04, 2009 at 11:44 PM boroparkyenta Says:
LA is terrible. London is terrible. Everyone should move to Boro Park. In BoroPark everything is kosher. If you live anywhere else, the kids must be locked up in a basement. Only in Boro Park can they play outside and be free. Chas Vsholom never take them on a train or bus to the city. Make sure you never leave Boro Park.
And we will all live happily ever after.
48
Jul 05, 2009 at 07:24 AM yiddishe bubby Says:
ok this person who want to remain must have said this just to make our day a little more humorous, even though as the yiddishe saying goes, mir ken lachen mit yashkes.
49
Jul 05, 2009 at 08:46 AM Jewish mother Says:
“ If we shouldn't let them ride the train because of what they might hear, we shouldn't let them go anywhere. I've heard radio in supermarkets, barber shops and dentists offices and my bank has CNN playing. Best thing is to never leave the house! ”
Forget the house. The Goyta is singing Christian hymns while she takes care of the children and cooks.
50
Jul 05, 2009 at 08:38 AM Anonymous Says:
“ I take bus and metro everyday, and trust me, even though there is no such announcement here, I can tell you that just people around you talking about their personnal, depraved life is enough, I always listen to my Ipod with my own kosher music so I don't "need" to heard them ;) ”
Rochel -- thats so unbelievably sad. How did you end up living in a world where you believe Hashem wants you to cut yourself off from the other 99.9 percent of humans on the planet? Those "depraved" conversations are his children trying to figure out how to live their lives. The music you're not listening to is the highest form of creative expression the RSO has given us. Please, don't live in a cult. Have emunah and kavanah. To be a frum,observant woman, you need to engage the world not shut yourself off.
51
Jul 05, 2009 at 12:38 PM esther Says:
“ Rochel -- thats so unbelievably sad. How did you end up living in a world where you believe Hashem wants you to cut yourself off from the other 99.9 percent of humans on the planet? Those "depraved" conversations are his children trying to figure out how to live their lives. The music you're not listening to is the highest form of creative expression the RSO has given us. Please, don't live in a cult. Have emunah and kavanah. To be a frum,observant woman, you need to engage the world not shut yourself off. ”
your so off base here it's hard to know where to start.yes,,,,,,,Hashem does want us to engage the world and make it holy but just as Hashem decreed that we can never make pork holy,we can't make the depravity that you call figuring out life into more than the shmuts it is.it's important t know the difference!
52
Jul 05, 2009 at 01:46 PM Baffled Says:
“ I doubt that you are actually a dayan, or "learned in the halacha," but i'll respond anyway. I was not commenting about the ruling: to be sure, the advertisements in subways are likely much more harmful to children than a couple lines of shakespeare played out over the PA. I was, rather, reacting to a person with the chutzpah to call chareidim (read: everyone who doesn't hold by his modernish perspective) "black hatted goons" and to tell us that we should "think for ourselves." Read a shtikl chumash: every time the Yidden think for themselves instead of listening to the Bashefer, they get into serious trouble. Think about it, for yourself.
(this time, with my handle) ”
I am baffled as to why you would doubt that I have semicha yadin yadin. Is it because I use the internet and believe in a more Modern Orthodox outlook? I learned with very chashuve rabbanim, who would be considered Litvishe. I also studied with many other personalities, including R' Chaim Brovender, R' Yosef Meir Kantor in Monsey, R' Leibel Schapiro, a Lubavitch Rosh Yeshiva from Miami, R' Aharon Soloveitchik, R' Yochanan Zweig, R' Michael Rosensweig, R' Yisroel Chait, R' Nissan Kaplan, and many others, at various points throughout my life. I am open-minded enough to realize that "the wise man learns from everyone," and for me, this entails learning from as many different roshei yeshiva and gaonim as possible, especially in Gemara and Halacha. In addition to learning many masechtas b'iyun, I also learned Issur V' Heter, Orach Chaim w/ Mishnah Berurah, Ribbis, Aveilus, Shabbos, Mikvaos, Eruvin, Niddah, Kiddushin, Even HaEzer and Choshen Mishpat all in their entirety, as well as Hilchos Geirus. I don't flaunt myself or what I have accomplished, but as a humble ben torah, with such knowledge, I am merely offering a shitah that I feel is legitimate and more in line with authentic Jewish Thought.
53
Jul 05, 2009 at 11:51 PM me Says:
“ There is no issur against hearing "heresy". The issur is believing it or repeating it. I can listed all day to someone who says moshe ra'beinu was a ben noach but that doesn't make it true. VIN routinely allows yiddin to post all sorts of nareshkeit in the spirit of a free exchange of ideas. About every other posting is someone call another poster an apikores. ”
The mishnah in perek hachalek says one reads "seferim chizonim" has no portion in the world to come. The stringent opinions says this refers to any none torah book, but according to all opinions it would include kefirah.
54
Jul 06, 2009 at 03:44 AM Frum Intellectual Says:
The halakha has changed since then, from the time of the Mishnah to our present day. Your answer is very simplistic and fails to take into account the prolific amounf of torah literature which was written, from the Rambam, through the Vilna Gaon, and onwards.
55
Jul 06, 2009 at 05:08 AM Anonymous Says:
'religious educators ' obviously have nothing better to worry about - does anyone seriously think anyone actually pays attention to these announcements?! what next!