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The dominant national-religious rabbi said that he was asked by soldiers what they ought to do when their commanders order them to stay at an event in which a woman was singing. Orthodox Jewish law prohibits men from hearing a woman sing on modesty grounds.
"I told them - what should you do? The Talmud tells you… It is better you go to jail, disregard your commander and don't hear the voice of a woman singing," Eliyahu said in a recorded sermon broadcast Monday night and carried by the newspaper Ma'ariv.
IDF's Chief of Staff's Office recently issued a prohibition on observant soldiers walking out of military assemblies to avoid hearing women singing.
Chief education officer Brig. Gen. Eli Shermeister said that incidents of religious soldiers walking out of ceremonies to avoid the religious transgression were a "worrisome phenomenon," as they were liable to weaken group cohesion.
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Read Comments (98) — Post Yours »
1
Jul 07, 2009 at 07:33 AM Big Masmis Says:
Thank you Rabbi for saying the EMES
2
Jul 07, 2009 at 07:33 AM Anonymous Says:
Why ruin unit cohesion? Just don't focus on the music and think about something else while it happens.
3
Jul 07, 2009 at 07:31 AM Anonymous Says:
and thus sounds the death knell of nachal chareidi. for all the geshrei about why frimme yidden not serving, there is a very simple reason. the medina is intrinsically anti-torah. period. and it will not change.
4
Jul 07, 2009 at 07:51 AM Anonymous Says:
What hypocrisy from the IDF. They see not to ruin group cohesion, but what about the religious soldiers who would feel resentment at the group for being forced to endure this aveira, or the resentment they would feel for being jailed. "Group cohesion" is just a deceitful scheme for making Jewish soldiers do aveiros.
Any soldier who is mesira nefesh to go to jail rather than endure this sin should be praised in public.
5
Jul 07, 2009 at 07:44 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Why ruin unit cohesion? Just don't focus on the music and think about something else while it happens. ”
because thats not the halacha.
6
Jul 07, 2009 at 08:11 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Why ruin unit cohesion? Just don't focus on the music and think about something else while it happens. ”
What about watching a porn movie and thinking about something else?!?
7
Jul 07, 2009 at 08:00 AM Kindred Says:
It is better you go to jail, disregard your commander and don't hear the voice of a woman singing
This is not halacha-This is bogus.
8
Jul 07, 2009 at 08:54 AM Anonymous Says:
“ It is better you go to jail, disregard your commander and don't hear the voice of a woman singing
This is not halacha-This is bogus. ”
Really? I would say Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu knows a halacha or two.
9
Jul 07, 2009 at 08:52 AM Anonymous Says:
Its a good thing the heilege rebbe has already retired so the IDF and government do not have to find a graceul way of forcing his resignation had he still active. With all the issues confronting the security of EY and the greater need then ever for the army to be a cohesive unit, he comes up with this mishugaas to focus on. A frumme yid can walk on the street and hear music playing from a passing car or from a record shop or in the supermarket. Big deal. He simply ignores it. But this rebbe presumes that bochurim in the IDF will be driven wild with lustful thoughts by hearing a mixed choir of fellow soldiers singing yiddeshe folk songs. Please, have some respect for the men and women who defend his right to make such poorly thought out comments.
10
Jul 07, 2009 at 08:45 AM Anonymous Says:
"IDF's Chief of Staff's Office recently issued a prohibition on observant soldiers walking out of military assemblies to avoid hearing women singing."
yes, but because of group cohesion why subject the observant soldiers to something that is known to be reprehensible to them? what would THAT do for their morale?
EQUAL RIGHTS for protection of religion should be important in a "democratic" society, and if soldiers are offended, for "group cohesion" they should avoid scheduling such events or allow the observant soldiers to leave.
11
Jul 07, 2009 at 08:35 AM Gefilte Fish Says:
“ It is better you go to jail, disregard your commander and don't hear the voice of a woman singing
This is not halacha-This is bogus. ”
Kol be'isha erva, ever heard of it?
12
Jul 07, 2009 at 08:33 AM obersver Says:
next the terrorists will send in female singers
13
Jul 07, 2009 at 09:30 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Its a good thing the heilege rebbe has already retired so the IDF and government do not have to find a graceul way of forcing his resignation had he still active. With all the issues confronting the security of EY and the greater need then ever for the army to be a cohesive unit, he comes up with this mishugaas to focus on. A frumme yid can walk on the street and hear music playing from a passing car or from a record shop or in the supermarket. Big deal. He simply ignores it. But this rebbe presumes that bochurim in the IDF will be driven wild with lustful thoughts by hearing a mixed choir of fellow soldiers singing yiddeshe folk songs. Please, have some respect for the men and women who defend his right to make such poorly thought out comments. ”
There is much more to be somaich on with recorded music and in the street the person is pre-occupied with his business or errands.
Think of the difference between a doctor examining a women for a medical problem and examining a woman on the pages of a magazine.
14
Jul 07, 2009 at 09:29 AM Anonymous Says:
“ What about watching a porn movie and thinking about something else?!? ”
Are you really equating a porn movie to a group of women singing?
15
Jul 07, 2009 at 09:28 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Kol be'isha erva, ever heard of it? ”
“Kol be'isha erva, ever heard of it?”
Yes. And I've also heard that soldiers are permitted to be mechalel shabbos if the military leadership decides it is essential for national security. If the army is in battle and Chamas starts blaring Naiomi Shemer music (I'm dating myself) over loudspeakers on the battlefield, will the soldiers throw away their weapons and run away screaming "gevalt, kol isha"....we surrender".. The army leadership has decided that military cohesiveness requires these concerts for military preparedness purposes. Let the rabbonim worry about important issues and stop trying to sabatoge the readiness of the IDF.
16
Jul 07, 2009 at 09:27 AM Anonymous Says:
“ It is better you go to jail, disregard your commander and don't hear the voice of a woman singing
This is not halacha-This is bogus. ”
I miss the days when even poskim who were asked shailos from all over the world prefaced their opinions with 'le'ani'as da'ati'
17
Jul 07, 2009 at 09:24 AM A woman with a voice Says:
“ Kol be'isha erva, ever heard of it? ”
I was always told that the issue is "listening" to a woman's voice. That is much different from "hearing" a woman's voice. We hear things all the time, but when we listen, we pay attention to it. So, stay in the room, but don't listen. I don't know about Israel's military rules, but in the US, disobeying orders could lead to a dishonorable discharge, which follows you everywhere, including to civilian jobs (who would want to hire someone who was thrown out of the army?)
18
Jul 07, 2009 at 09:22 AM Sad Reality Says:
"Chief education officer Brig. Gen. Eli Shermeister said that incidents of religious soldiers walking out of ceremonies to avoid the religious transgression were a "worrisome phenomenon," as they were liable to weaken group cohesion."
The more people study Israeli society the more it becomes painfully clear that Israel is NOT a united cohesive state. The only thing uniting the fragile state is the fear of arab nations attacking.
19
Jul 07, 2009 at 09:09 AM Anonymous Says:
why do the women have to sing ? can they change it to men ? or take out that segment of the cermoniy?
20
Jul 07, 2009 at 09:08 AM Yoshua Says:
What about if the soldiers ask for permission to leave an religious grounds and there commanding officer excuses them? This would avoid them "walking out" and being insubordinate.
Could not this issue be handled in a more calm manner?
21
Jul 07, 2009 at 09:07 AM Anonymous Says:
Whats the big news here. This is as simple as ABC. Its Poshut!! That's the Halachah!!!!
22
Jul 07, 2009 at 08:29 AM Anonymous Says:
“ It is better you go to jail, disregard your commander and don't hear the voice of a woman singing
This is not halacha-This is bogus. ”
are you a posek? cause r eliyahu is and thats what he pakened.
23
Jul 07, 2009 at 08:28 AM Anonymous Says:
They should tell the IDF they are Muslim. Then they will make an exception.
24
Jul 07, 2009 at 08:28 AM Anonymous Says:
“ It is better you go to jail, disregard your commander and don't hear the voice of a woman singing
This is not halacha-This is bogus. ”
Sorry, Mr. Kidred, but your response is bogus.
The halacha is clear. The IDF can't change it.
The rabbi has the courage to tell the truth. The trouble is that some are so used to the truth being covered up because "we don't want to upset anyone" that they forget there actually is a Shulchan Aruch with real, clear laws in it.
25
Jul 07, 2009 at 08:19 AM David Says:
“ What about watching a porn movie and thinking about something else?!? ”
There is a WORLD of difference between a staged musical performance which you can shut out, or at least not focus on, and a porn movie.
26
Jul 07, 2009 at 08:18 AM Anonymous Says:
“ It is better you go to jail, disregard your commander and don't hear the voice of a woman singing
This is not halacha-This is bogus. ”
Could you please provide you rabbinic credentials since you are arguing with the rav haroshie.
27
Jul 07, 2009 at 09:37 AM moish Says:
“ Its a good thing the heilege rebbe has already retired so the IDF and government do not have to find a graceul way of forcing his resignation had he still active. With all the issues confronting the security of EY and the greater need then ever for the army to be a cohesive unit, he comes up with this mishugaas to focus on. A frumme yid can walk on the street and hear music playing from a passing car or from a record shop or in the supermarket. Big deal. He simply ignores it. But this rebbe presumes that bochurim in the IDF will be driven wild with lustful thoughts by hearing a mixed choir of fellow soldiers singing yiddeshe folk songs. Please, have some respect for the men and women who defend his right to make such poorly thought out comments. ”
Here we go again, the am ho'oretz who thinks "heilige" is an insult, as he always uses it to insult rabbonim with his first class am aratzus.
28
Jul 07, 2009 at 09:33 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Its a good thing the heilege rebbe has already retired so the IDF and government do not have to find a graceul way of forcing his resignation had he still active. With all the issues confronting the security of EY and the greater need then ever for the army to be a cohesive unit, he comes up with this mishugaas to focus on. A frumme yid can walk on the street and hear music playing from a passing car or from a record shop or in the supermarket. Big deal. He simply ignores it. But this rebbe presumes that bochurim in the IDF will be driven wild with lustful thoughts by hearing a mixed choir of fellow soldiers singing yiddeshe folk songs. Please, have some respect for the men and women who defend his right to make such poorly thought out comments. ”
yes he decided to focus on a jewish government forcing jews in a jewish army to be over an issur. your comparison to walking down he street and hearing music from a car is incorrect. first of all its recorded. second its unavoidable. there is no reason religious soldiers in a jewish army should have to be subjected to any issur.
29
Jul 07, 2009 at 09:32 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Its a good thing the heilege rebbe has already retired so the IDF and government do not have to find a graceul way of forcing his resignation had he still active. With all the issues confronting the security of EY and the greater need then ever for the army to be a cohesive unit, he comes up with this mishugaas to focus on. A frumme yid can walk on the street and hear music playing from a passing car or from a record shop or in the supermarket. Big deal. He simply ignores it. But this rebbe presumes that bochurim in the IDF will be driven wild with lustful thoughts by hearing a mixed choir of fellow soldiers singing yiddeshe folk songs. Please, have some respect for the men and women who defend his right to make such poorly thought out comments. ”
Yiddesheh folk songs? In what century are you living?
30
Jul 07, 2009 at 08:13 AM Anonymous Says:
Better eitza, don't go to the army in the first place.
31
Jul 07, 2009 at 10:09 AM Anonymous Says:
“ It is better you go to jail, disregard your commander and don't hear the voice of a woman singing
This is not halacha-This is bogus. ”
The halacha is that if somebody tries to force a Jew to be over even a minhag for the purpose of attacking shmiras Torah, one should be willing to die before trangresssing.
32
Jul 07, 2009 at 10:01 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Yiddesheh folk songs? In what century are you living? ”
the point was not what type of songs sthey were singing it was the fact that no soldier will get wild from the type of music they perform at these brigade talent shows..
33
Jul 07, 2009 at 09:56 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Could you please provide you rabbinic credentials since you are arguing with the rav haroshie. ”
He has smicha from the VINer Ruv. ;-)
34
Jul 07, 2009 at 09:56 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Here we go again, the am ho'oretz who thinks "heilige" is an insult, as he always uses it to insult rabbonim with his first class am aratzus.
”
Heilege means "holy" or "respected"..it is not any insult
35
Jul 07, 2009 at 09:56 AM berel Says:
#15 please take your ignorance somewhere else...if its not pikiuch nefesh theyre not allowed to trangress...and what has going to concerts and trangress halchos got to do with the effectiveness of IDF??. also, its not the rabbonim. the rabbonim,the rabbonim the rabbonim blah blah. these are our 4 parts ot law the rabbonim dont make theit own halachos
36
Jul 07, 2009 at 10:19 AM Anonymous Says:
“ The halacha is that if somebody tries to force a Jew to be over even a minhag for the purpose of attacking shmiras Torah, one should be willing to die before trangresssing. ”
There is no such halacha that says a Jew must die before being mechalel some minhag...you represent the most extreme and obscene distortion of yiddeshkeit. They should try to accomodate the needs of these soldiers who may not wish to listen to women singers but like everything else going on in eretz yisroel today, you take it to extremes that will ultimately destory the medinah. Hashem should have pity on you.
37
Jul 07, 2009 at 09:54 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Better eitza, don't go to the army in the first place.
”
Best eitza - Only frum men should go to the army. That is what the torah says and then group cohesion would be safeguarded by NOT having female singers.
38
Jul 07, 2009 at 09:53 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Here we go again, the am ho'oretz who thinks "heilige" is an insult, as he always uses it to insult rabbonim with his first class am aratzus.
”
If he is so bad, why stoop to his level with your own insulting words?
39
Jul 07, 2009 at 09:53 AM David Says:
“ Better eitza, don't go to the army in the first place.
”
Yeah, just sit there in your kollel and feel morally superior, while your betters toil to support you and fight to defend you.
40
Jul 07, 2009 at 09:52 AM Anonymous Says:
“ There is a WORLD of difference between a staged musical performance which you can shut out, or at least not focus on, and a porn movie. ”
And how do YOU know?
41
Jul 07, 2009 at 09:44 AM moish Says:
“ “Kol be'isha erva, ever heard of it?”
Yes. And I've also heard that soldiers are permitted to be mechalel shabbos if the military leadership decides it is essential for national security. If the army is in battle and Chamas starts blaring Naiomi Shemer music (I'm dating myself) over loudspeakers on the battlefield, will the soldiers throw away their weapons and run away screaming "gevalt, kol isha"....we surrender".. The army leadership has decided that military cohesiveness requires these concerts for military preparedness purposes. Let the rabbonim worry about important issues and stop trying to sabatoge the readiness of the IDF. ”
"The army leadership has decided that military cohesiveness requires these concerts for military preparedness purposes" what garbage, what has this to do with pikuach nefesh. And as a matter of fact even for pikuach nefesh it is ossur for a woman to sing intentionally in front of men, this is avizraihu d'giluy aroyos and is yehoreg ve'al yaavor.
42
Jul 07, 2009 at 09:43 AM Anonymous Says:
“ There is a WORLD of difference between a staged musical performance which you can shut out, or at least not focus on, and a porn movie. ”
a porn movie is easier--just close your eyes. erva is erva and therefore there is no difference between watching it or hearing it, it is still ossur. The fact that today people have become very lax about kol isha (finding heteirim to hear it on tape, on radio, etc. as long as it is not live) does not make it less of an issur.
43
Jul 07, 2009 at 09:43 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Sorry, Mr. Kidred, but your response is bogus.
The halacha is clear. The IDF can't change it.
The rabbi has the courage to tell the truth. The trouble is that some are so used to the truth being covered up because "we don't want to upset anyone" that they forget there actually is a Shulchan Aruch with real, clear laws in it. ”
Eretz Yisroel cannot have an army where each soldier first checks the shulchan aruch and then consults with his local posek before he decides whether or not to obey an order. Thats a formula for disaster for the medinah.
44
Jul 07, 2009 at 09:40 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Whats the big news here. This is as simple as ABC. Its Poshut!! That's the Halachah!!!! ”
So according to this facockete view of halacha, women in the army have to listen to the men sing and thats ok and won't trigger lewd thoughts among the women but the men have no self control and we must protect them against chas vachalilah hearing a women. In shul every week I hear women singing from the balcony and it doesn't usually result in the men downstairs running out of the shul and molesting people.
45
Jul 07, 2009 at 09:39 AM Tanna Kamma Says:
“ Its a good thing the heilege rebbe has already retired so the IDF and government do not have to find a graceul way of forcing his resignation had he still active. With all the issues confronting the security of EY and the greater need then ever for the army to be a cohesive unit, he comes up with this mishugaas to focus on. A frumme yid can walk on the street and hear music playing from a passing car or from a record shop or in the supermarket. Big deal. He simply ignores it. But this rebbe presumes that bochurim in the IDF will be driven wild with lustful thoughts by hearing a mixed choir of fellow soldiers singing yiddeshe folk songs. Please, have some respect for the men and women who defend his right to make such poorly thought out comments. ”
Glad to see you find a Torah prohibition a mere "mishugaas"
"Poorly thought out comments"? you take the prize...
46
Jul 07, 2009 at 09:39 AM cool masmid Says:
#2 #7 and #9, you are what we call Poishei Yisroel... If you can talk that way against an open halocho and/or a true talmid chochom you are from the worst that's out there - my advice go do Teshuva before you reach the point where its too late.
47
Jul 07, 2009 at 10:30 AM Anonymous Says:
“ “Kol be'isha erva, ever heard of it?”
Yes. And I've also heard that soldiers are permitted to be mechalel shabbos if the military leadership decides it is essential for national security. If the army is in battle and Chamas starts blaring Naiomi Shemer music (I'm dating myself) over loudspeakers on the battlefield, will the soldiers throw away their weapons and run away screaming "gevalt, kol isha"....we surrender".. The army leadership has decided that military cohesiveness requires these concerts for military preparedness purposes. Let the rabbonim worry about important issues and stop trying to sabatoge the readiness of the IDF. ”
"The army leadership has decided that military cohesiveness requires these concerts for military preparedness purposes."
Are you for real?? You just lost your entire arguement by the inclusion of this moronic statement. Military preparedness purposes??? Maybe try a mock battle! But if you perhaps meant to say that it is some sort of stress reducer that may help increase their ability to perform in battle, then do you really believe that the absolute ONLY way to do that is by hearing a woman sing? You must be more intelligent than that. And as far as Nomi Shemer recordings go, like many have already made reference to here, there are enough poskim who are matir hearing a recording of a woman's voice, especially if they don't know who she is. I hope you'll think twice before making such ridiculous comments next time.
48
Jul 07, 2009 at 10:38 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Are you really equating a porn movie to a group of women singing? ”
No, not me, but our Torah calls them BOTH Erva. don’t like it? Become a Muslim
49
Jul 07, 2009 at 10:42 AM Anonymous Says:
“ So according to this facockete view of halacha, women in the army have to listen to the men sing and thats ok and won't trigger lewd thoughts among the women but the men have no self control and we must protect them against chas vachalilah hearing a women. In shul every week I hear women singing from the balcony and it doesn't usually result in the men downstairs running out of the shul and molesting people. ”
i don't know a single man who ever went out and did aveiros because a woman's singing voice drove him wild with lust. but that doesn't change the halacha- it's as assur as a ham and cheese sandwich. it's not a chumra like having separate entrances at the supermarket for men and women, it is black and white halacha, and that's what it is whether or not you or anyone you know has ever been turned on by a woman singing.
what's really disgusting is that the army is so insistent on this when there are a million and one alternatives. if group cohesion is so important, they should be more accommodating. have only men sing, or better yet, have only instrumental concerts. everyone knows that the best soldiers are the religious ones, and they are being very stupid by making life more difficult for them. if they lose the frum soldiers, they lose the whole army, plain and simple.
50
Jul 07, 2009 at 11:03 AM Anonymous Says:
Why do Tora observant men step into the army to begin with, if there's such a hate against torah and yidishkeit in the air?
51
Jul 07, 2009 at 10:59 AM Anonymous Says:
“ So according to this facockete view of halacha, women in the army have to listen to the men sing and thats ok and won't trigger lewd thoughts among the women but the men have no self control and we must protect them against chas vachalilah hearing a women. In shul every week I hear women singing from the balcony and it doesn't usually result in the men downstairs running out of the shul and molesting people. ”
You're talking like the real old apikorsim, this is what the torah says, a male is not allowed to hear a female sing, a female is allowed to hear a male singing.
Besides its common sense and you know that, and still you - tzedoiki come and bash against the torah, shame on you apikores!
52
Jul 07, 2009 at 10:56 AM Anonymous Says:
someone please explain what singing b'chlal and lady singing b'prat have to do with national security? if this is what the army of the "jewish state" needs to do to boost the soldiers' morale, they have much bigger problems than a couple of frum boys deciding to opt out of the tzahal's version of "the american idol"... Tfillin for men and shabbos candles for women will do a million times more for morale than a few tone-deaf michael jackson / diana ross wannabees singing pseudo-patriotic zionist oldies.
Oh, it's 'cause the Commander said so and it's important in the army to follow orders...How nice. So next this mishigoy will say that it hurts cohesion if some soldiers don't eat chazer and don't dance with shikses... This sounds like the army of Chelm.
May HKBH protect every one of our heilige soldiers..
53
Jul 07, 2009 at 10:56 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Eretz Yisroel cannot have an army where each soldier first checks the shulchan aruch and then consults with his local posek before he decides whether or not to obey an order. Thats a formula for disaster for the medinah. ”
If that's the case, then I fully understand those charedi men that try to avoid serving in this anti Torah army for all costs..
54
Jul 07, 2009 at 10:47 AM Anonymous Says:
“ the point was not what type of songs sthey were singing it was the fact that no soldier will get wild from the type of music they perform at these brigade talent shows.. ”
What does getting wild have to do with anything.
If it is asur it is asur.
55
Jul 07, 2009 at 11:05 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Eretz Yisroel cannot have an army where each soldier first checks the shulchan aruch and then consults with his local posek before he decides whether or not to obey an order. Thats a formula for disaster for the medinah. ”
So let them set free all religious soldiers..
56
Jul 07, 2009 at 12:00 PM moish Says:
“ Heilege means "holy" or "respected"..it is not any insult ”
Go and re-read my comment.
57
Jul 07, 2009 at 11:58 AM Anonymous Says:
Would there be a difference lehalachah between one woman singing and several women singing? What if the men joined in?
Or just sang over them. ;-)
58
Jul 07, 2009 at 11:33 AM Anonymous Says:
“ So according to this facockete view of halacha, women in the army have to listen to the men sing and thats ok and won't trigger lewd thoughts among the women but the men have no self control and we must protect them against chas vachalilah hearing a women. In shul every week I hear women singing from the balcony and it doesn't usually result in the men downstairs running out of the shul and molesting people. ”
I've never seen a yid or even a semi yid write such a horrible comment, woe to the fingers that typed those infidel words, the writer must be a son of Hertzel or other old time apikoires, or just a plaina goy.
59
Jul 07, 2009 at 11:25 AM Anonymous Says:
“ If that's the case, then I fully understand those charedi men that try to avoid serving in this anti Torah army for all costs.. ”
It may not be their option. At some point, we will require that all citizens must serve the medinah. This highlights the importance of having a non-combat option for hareidi men that will not require any conflicts with their theological beliefs. (e.g. manual labor, cleaning, hauling materials, etc.) and can be done without any concerns for timing or mixed gender work. As long as they work all day, we wouldn't have to worry what they did at night and in their time off.
60
Jul 07, 2009 at 11:21 AM berel Says:
#36 mes. sanhedrin....beshas gezyroh afilu to tie your sholaces like avoda zara yeharog veal yavor. pleease if your are not versed with shass shulchen urech dont pasken. we will not refrain from pointing out what a yid has to follow because of worry some or a lot will find it exterme and leave the fold. he can always join the other 'denominations'
61
Jul 07, 2009 at 12:04 PM moish Says:
“ There is no such halacha that says a Jew must die before being mechalel some minhag...you represent the most extreme and obscene distortion of yiddeshkeit. They should try to accomodate the needs of these soldiers who may not wish to listen to women singers but like everything else going on in eretz yisroel today, you take it to extremes that will ultimately destory the medinah. Hashem should have pity on you. ”
"There is no such halacha that says a Jew must die before being mechalel some minhag" that is not what the poster said, and what he did say is absolutely the halocho, go look it up.
62
Jul 07, 2009 at 12:48 PM Anonymous Says:
“ There is no such halacha that says a Jew must die before being mechalel some minhag...you represent the most extreme and obscene distortion of yiddeshkeit. They should try to accomodate the needs of these soldiers who may not wish to listen to women singers but like everything else going on in eretz yisroel today, you take it to extremes that will ultimately destory the medinah. Hashem should have pity on you. ”
actually there is such a halacha if it a shas hashmad.
63
Jul 07, 2009 at 12:50 PM Anonymous Says:
“ So according to this facockete view of halacha, women in the army have to listen to the men sing and thats ok and won't trigger lewd thoughts among the women but the men have no self control and we must protect them against chas vachalilah hearing a women. In shul every week I hear women singing from the balcony and it doesn't usually result in the men downstairs running out of the shul and molesting people. ”
so you argue on the whole concept of kol bisha erva? carefull could be apikosus.
64
Jul 07, 2009 at 12:58 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I've never seen a yid or even a semi yid write such a horrible comment, woe to the fingers that typed those infidel words, the writer must be a son of Hertzel or other old time apikoires, or just a plaina goy. ”
Clearly the halacha does not provide any symmetry for "kol ish" as a counterpart to "kol isha" but I suspect that even among a large percentage of modern orthodox there is no understanding that this is what the Torah says and we don't need to try and understand why the rules only go in one direction.
65
Jul 07, 2009 at 12:17 PM moish Says:
“ Eretz Yisroel cannot have an army where each soldier first checks the shulchan aruch and then consults with his local posek before he decides whether or not to obey an order. Thats a formula for disaster for the medinah. ”
So what are you saying, that they should not keep the torah c"v? Are you frum?
66
Jul 07, 2009 at 12:15 PM Anonymous Says:
“ It may not be their option. At some point, we will require that all citizens must serve the medinah. This highlights the importance of having a non-combat option for hareidi men that will not require any conflicts with their theological beliefs. (e.g. manual labor, cleaning, hauling materials, etc.) and can be done without any concerns for timing or mixed gender work. As long as they work all day, we wouldn't have to worry what they did at night and in their time off. ”
But I'm sure that in that case the anti torah government will demand they should hear some women singing so they improve their washing and cleaning skills.. go figure out crooked heads..
67
Jul 07, 2009 at 12:15 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Yeah, just sit there in your kollel and feel morally superior, while your betters toil to support you and fight to defend you. ”
I don't need defense, torah magna umatzla.
68
Jul 07, 2009 at 12:12 PM moish Says:
“ If he is so bad, why stoop to his level with your own insulting words? ”
You can't get a more opposite conduct, he was mevazeh kovod hatorah and I defended it.
69
Jul 07, 2009 at 01:06 PM Anonymous Says:
“ #36 mes. sanhedrin....beshas gezyroh afilu to tie your sholaces like avoda zara yeharog veal yavor. pleease if your are not versed with shass shulchen urech dont pasken. we will not refrain from pointing out what a yid has to follow because of worry some or a lot will find it exterme and leave the fold. he can always join the other 'denominations' ”
I question whether this qualifies as sha'as hashmad.
70
Jul 07, 2009 at 01:05 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I've never seen a yid or even a semi yid write such a horrible comment, woe to the fingers that typed those infidel words, the writer must be a son of Hertzel or other old time apikoires, or just a plaina goy. ”
Because he got into the dirt you had to go one level lower?
71
Jul 07, 2009 at 01:05 PM Anonymous Says:
The article does not explain what is meant by "modesty grounds'. To my understanding, this had nothing to do with how the woman singer is dressed or the lyrics of the song. It is simply assur for a man to hear a live woman singer without regards to "modesty".
72
Jul 07, 2009 at 01:21 PM Anonymous Says:
“ You can't get a more opposite conduct, he was mevazeh kovod hatorah and I defended it.
”
OK, please take a few minutes and enlighten me.
How does "Here we go again, the am ho'oretz who thinks "heilige" is an insult, as he always uses it to insult rabbonim with his first class am aratzus" defend kavod hatorah? To me it just sounds like you are insulting someone who insulted kavod hatorah.
Defending kavod hatorah, to my mind, would mean you speak like a mentsch and explain why it is improper to speak of rabbonim, even the ones with whom we might disagree, in such a belittling manner.
At least that would enhance the kavod hatorah by showing that those who follow it are above angry exchanges of personal insults and hatred.
Just the way I see it.
73
Jul 07, 2009 at 01:17 PM Moshe Says:
Read today's Science section in the NY Times the more you repress something them more the impulse - similar studies last week that the most repressed groups in US have the most acting out. I'm sorry I quoted science here
74
Jul 07, 2009 at 01:14 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Why do Tora observant men step into the army to begin with, if there's such a hate against torah and yidishkeit in the air? ”
To defend Eretz Yisrael, their family and the one third (?) of klal yisrael that lives there from bloodthirsty neighbors?
75
Jul 07, 2009 at 01:09 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Clearly the halacha does not provide any symmetry for "kol ish" as a counterpart to "kol isha" but I suspect that even among a large percentage of modern orthodox there is no understanding that this is what the Torah says and we don't need to try and understand why the rules only go in one direction. ”
Close call. You almost missed an opportunity to knock the entire Modern Orthodox community for no reason.
76
Jul 07, 2009 at 02:51 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Yeah, just sit there in your kollel and feel morally superior, while your betters toil to support you and fight to defend you. ”
It is his Torah that is actually providing the brocho that prevents his so called betters from being removed from this earth, let alone from Eretz Yisroel, because of their many aveirois and constant desecration of the land.
77
Jul 07, 2009 at 02:42 PM dovy Says:
“ Clearly the halacha does not provide any symmetry for "kol ish" as a counterpart to "kol isha" but I suspect that even among a large percentage of modern orthodox there is no understanding that this is what the Torah says and we don't need to try and understand why the rules only go in one direction. ”
Of course, the main point of all of this should be that the National Religous perspective that it is possible to work with the zionists towards a common goal has been clearly proven wrong. It died in Gaza and this is just another nail in the coffin.
78
Jul 07, 2009 at 02:41 PM Anonymous Says:
“ “Kol be'isha erva, ever heard of it?”
Yes. And I've also heard that soldiers are permitted to be mechalel shabbos if the military leadership decides it is essential for national security. If the army is in battle and Chamas starts blaring Naiomi Shemer music (I'm dating myself) over loudspeakers on the battlefield, will the soldiers throw away their weapons and run away screaming "gevalt, kol isha"....we surrender".. The army leadership has decided that military cohesiveness requires these concerts for military preparedness purposes. Let the rabbonim worry about important issues and stop trying to sabatoge the readiness of the IDF. ”
shobbos is not an issur yaharog v'al yavor, giluy arayos is. a man hearing a woman singing other than a close relative is an issur ervah. understand.
79
Jul 07, 2009 at 02:41 PM moish Says:
“ OK, please take a few minutes and enlighten me.
How does "Here we go again, the am ho'oretz who thinks "heilige" is an insult, as he always uses it to insult rabbonim with his first class am aratzus" defend kavod hatorah? To me it just sounds like you are insulting someone who insulted kavod hatorah.
Defending kavod hatorah, to my mind, would mean you speak like a mentsch and explain why it is improper to speak of rabbonim, even the ones with whom we might disagree, in such a belittling manner.
At least that would enhance the kavod hatorah by showing that those who follow it are above angry exchanges of personal insults and hatred.
Just the way I see it. ”
You may be right in principle, but this guy is a regular mevazeh talmidei chachomim, and is not interested in hearing any explanation, so he deserves the treatment of "af atoh hakheh es shinov".
80
Jul 07, 2009 at 02:37 PM dovy Says:
“ There is no such halacha that says a Jew must die before being mechalel some minhag...you represent the most extreme and obscene distortion of yiddeshkeit. They should try to accomodate the needs of these soldiers who may not wish to listen to women singers but like everything else going on in eretz yisroel today, you take it to extremes that will ultimately destory the medinah. Hashem should have pity on you. ”
Actually, the halacha does say that you must give up your life rather than transgress any prohibition at the behest of an enemy who wishes to cause shmad. (israel fits that bill precisely) Sorry, but the extremist here is you.
81
Jul 07, 2009 at 03:53 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Eretz Yisroel cannot have an army where each soldier first checks the shulchan aruch and then consults with his local posek before he decides whether or not to obey an order. Thats a formula for disaster for the medinah. ”
Actually, that ois exactly what should happen. Or halacha should be consulted before an order is given.
Tere is a famous story where the maskilim put on a play trying to make fun of the rabonnim. The plot was that it came time to go to war agains amalek, you would have to old yiddin, R' Meir Simcha from Dvinsk(the Ohr Someach) and the Chofetz Chaim arguing over who should light the first cannon (they were both Kohanim)and they would discus the halacha between them.
They told this to the Chofetz Chaim and he said that is correct, but they left out the ending which is, that one shot would wipe out all of amalek. Because that is the way Hashem wants war waged.
So congratulations, your idea was just like the maskilim .
As an aside, all those so up on that this must be done because its the "Medinah" you claim that there is chashivus to the medinah because of "aschalta Dege'ula". How can it be considered hascholas hageulah if it is so anti the Torah? That cannot be hascholas hageulah. In fact these are the people who should be first and formost protesting giovernment chillul shabbos anti anti rekigious activities of the army. All those activities are antithesis to aschalta degeulah.
82
Jul 07, 2009 at 03:33 PM Anonymous Says:
“ There is no such halacha that says a Jew must die before being mechalel some minhag...you represent the most extreme and obscene distortion of yiddeshkeit. They should try to accomodate the needs of these soldiers who may not wish to listen to women singers but like everything else going on in eretz yisroel today, you take it to extremes that will ultimately destory the medinah. Hashem should have pity on you. ”
Ask a learned Rabbi, and he will enlighten you that you are wrong.
83
Jul 07, 2009 at 03:18 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Actually, the halacha does say that you must give up your life rather than transgress any prohibition at the behest of an enemy who wishes to cause shmad. (israel fits that bill precisely) Sorry, but the extremist here is you. ”
So you are saying the "state" (which I assume you mean medinas yisroyel and its leaders) is an "enemy who wishes to cause shmad" and which all jews are obligated to fight and give up their lives. any u say I'm the extremist. The men and women of the IDF are willing to give their lives for this medina and you are saying we should oppose it with our lives if necessary. Whats wrong with your logic??
84
Jul 07, 2009 at 03:14 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Close call. You almost missed an opportunity to knock the entire Modern Orthodox community for no reason. ”
On one is knocking the entire MO community...there are many assurim in the torah which have no reason other than hashem said NO....that should be enough reason but all too often we see efforts to rationalize in modern terms why certain things are assur
85
Jul 07, 2009 at 03:57 PM Getzel the Pretzel Says:
“ There is no such halacha that says a Jew must die before being mechalel some minhag...you represent the most extreme and obscene distortion of yiddeshkeit. They should try to accomodate the needs of these soldiers who may not wish to listen to women singers but like everything else going on in eretz yisroel today, you take it to extremes that will ultimately destory the medinah. Hashem should have pity on you. ”
Your am ah'aretzus does not deserve a reply. A pre-condition to commenting on halachah is first to learn it, not just what the artscroll says.
#77- although you are 100% correct, the National Religious have their Zionist dream and they adjust facts to fit in with that dream. Even if it is to their own detriment. After the disengagement, err capitulating to the Americans, how many mo shuls stopped saying the prayer for the Medinah? I know of zero? The religious Zionists I meet are as passionate about their ideals as they always were.
86
Jul 07, 2009 at 05:49 PM Anonymous Says:
“ There is no such halacha that says a Jew must die before being mechalel some minhag...you represent the most extreme and obscene distortion of yiddeshkeit. They should try to accomodate the needs of these soldiers who may not wish to listen to women singers but like everything else going on in eretz yisroel today, you take it to extremes that will ultimately destory the medinah. Hashem should have pity on you. ”
Wrong its a beferishah gemara if the intention is to go against the torah you must give up your life and not trensgres even on a minhag (the example in the gemara is Achmesa Dimsona which means a certain type of shoes they used to go those times)
87
Jul 07, 2009 at 05:55 PM former mizrachi now charedi Says:
“ Your am ah'aretzus does not deserve a reply. A pre-condition to commenting on halachah is first to learn it, not just what the artscroll says.
#77- although you are 100% correct, the National Religious have their Zionist dream and they adjust facts to fit in with that dream. Even if it is to their own detriment. After the disengagement, err capitulating to the Americans, how many mo shuls stopped saying the prayer for the Medinah? I know of zero? The religious Zionists I meet are as passionate about their ideals as they always were. ”
Rav Tal was the rav in Netzarim in Gush Katif. After the disengagement he and his kehilah removed themselves from any form of the medinah. They do not vote anymore, nor do they go to the army anymore, and they no longer say the prayer for the medina. Now you know of one shul that stopped.
89
Jul 07, 2009 at 08:48 PM Anonymous Says:
“ So you are saying the "state" (which I assume you mean medinas yisroyel and its leaders) is an "enemy who wishes to cause shmad" and which all jews are obligated to fight and give up their lives. any u say I'm the extremist. The men and women of the IDF are willing to give their lives for this medina and you are saying we should oppose it with our lives if necessary. Whats wrong with your logic?? ”
I'm not sure if you are just not very bright, or if you have certain emotions which are clouding your thinking. So I'll help walk you through this halacha... IDF has their girlie show, and religious soldier stands up and walks away. IDF officer goes up to him, and says to the religious soldier, "Sit down in your seat, or I'll kill you." The halacha is that the soldier should disobey and be killed. Now in practical terms, do you actually think this IDF officer is going to say or do as described above? No sane person would think so. So bottom line, the religious soldiers gets up, walks out, and maybe serves some prison time (maybe not).
Advice for you: Cool off, and stop spitting out made-for-tv slogans about "men and women of the IDF giving up their lives for the medina." One has nothing to do with the other. And that my friend is logic 101.
90
Jul 07, 2009 at 08:47 PM Anonymous Says:
“ So you are saying the "state" (which I assume you mean medinas yisroyel and its leaders) is an "enemy who wishes to cause shmad" and which all jews are obligated to fight and give up their lives. any u say I'm the extremist. The men and women of the IDF are willing to give their lives for this medina and you are saying we should oppose it with our lives if necessary. Whats wrong with your logic?? ”
I'm not sure if you are just not very bright, or if you have certain emotions which are clouding your thinking. So I'll help walk you through this halacha... IDF has their girlie show, and religious soldier stands up and walks away. IDF officer goes up to him, and says to the religious soldier, "Sit down in your seat, or I'll kill you." The halacha is that the soldier should disobey and be killed. Now in practical terms, do you actually think this IDF officer is going to say or do as described above? No sane person would think so. So bottom line, the religious soldiers gets up, walks out, and maybe serves some prison time (maybe not).
Advice for you: Cool off, and stop spitting out made-for-tv slogans about "men and women of the IDF giving up their lives for the medina." One has nothing to do with the other. And that my friend is logic 101.
91
Jul 07, 2009 at 09:45 PM Anonymous Says:
“ On one is knocking the entire MO community...there are many assurim in the torah which have no reason other than hashem said NO....that should be enough reason but all too often we see efforts to rationalize in modern terms why certain things are assur ”
Really???!!! Please, explain how #64 can be understood as anything but an accusation of unfaithfullness to halachah by the Modern Orthodox. I'd love to know how else #64 can be read.
92
Jul 12, 2009 at 08:38 PM Milhouse Says:
“ “Kol be'isha erva, ever heard of it?”
Yes. And I've also heard that soldiers are permitted to be mechalel shabbos if the military leadership decides it is essential for national security. If the army is in battle and Chamas starts blaring Naiomi Shemer music (I'm dating myself) over loudspeakers on the battlefield, will the soldiers throw away their weapons and run away screaming "gevalt, kol isha"....we surrender".. The army leadership has decided that military cohesiveness requires these concerts for military preparedness purposes. Let the rabbonim worry about important issues and stop trying to sabatoge the readiness of the IDF. ”
" And I've also heard that soldiers are permitted to be mechalel shabbos if the military leadership decides it is essential for national security"
Then you heard wrong. It is not up to the military leadership, it's up to the military rabbinate to pasken whether an operation is important enough to justify breaking shabbos or not. If the rav basis paskens that an order is not to be obeyed, then religious soldiers cannot be compelled to obey it.
93
Jul 12, 2009 at 08:41 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Heilege means "holy" or "respected"..it is not any insult ”
It is the way commenter #9 uses it.
94
Jul 12, 2009 at 08:47 PM Milhouse Says:
“ So according to this facockete view of halacha, women in the army have to listen to the men sing and thats ok and won't trigger lewd thoughts among the women but the men have no self control and we must protect them against chas vachalilah hearing a women. In shul every week I hear women singing from the balcony and it doesn't usually result in the men downstairs running out of the shul and molesting people. ”
Yes, that is the halacha. You are the one with a "facockete view", or plain ignorance. Go ask your rov what the halacha is.
95
Jul 12, 2009 at 08:44 PM Milhouse Says:
“ If he is so bad, why stoop to his level with your own insulting words? ”
It's an avera to insult a talmid chochom. It's a mitzvah to insult such a person as commenter #9.
96
Jul 12, 2009 at 08:43 PM Milhouse Says:
“ There is no such halacha that says a Jew must die before being mechalel some minhag...you represent the most extreme and obscene distortion of yiddeshkeit. They should try to accomodate the needs of these soldiers who may not wish to listen to women singers but like everything else going on in eretz yisroel today, you take it to extremes that will ultimately destory the medinah. Hashem should have pity on you. ”
Yes, there is indeed such a halacha. You just need to learn more. "Even for a shoelace".
97
Jul 12, 2009 at 08:48 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Eretz Yisroel cannot have an army where each soldier first checks the shulchan aruch and then consults with his local posek before he decides whether or not to obey an order. Thats a formula for disaster for the medinah. ”
On the contrary, that is the only formula for survival. Ki Hashem Elokecho mis'halech bekerev machanecho. And that is why each base has a rov, to pasken such shaylos.
98
Jul 12, 2009 at 11:11 PM Milhouse Says:
“ i don't know a single man who ever went out and did aveiros because a woman's singing voice drove him wild with lust. but that doesn't change the halacha- it's as assur as a ham and cheese sandwich. it's not a chumra like having separate entrances at the supermarket for men and women, it is black and white halacha, and that's what it is whether or not you or anyone you know has ever been turned on by a woman singing.
what's really disgusting is that the army is so insistent on this when there are a million and one alternatives. if group cohesion is so important, they should be more accommodating. have only men sing, or better yet, have only instrumental concerts. everyone knows that the best soldiers are the religious ones, and they are being very stupid by making life more difficult for them. if they lose the frum soldiers, they lose the whole army, plain and simple. ”
To be fair, it isn't quite as black and white as you make out. See Kesubos 17a and Brochos 20a.
99
Jul 13, 2009 at 05:58 AM Rifka Says:
“ Read today's Science section in the NY Times the more you repress something them more the impulse - similar studies last week that the most repressed groups in US have the most acting out. I'm sorry I quoted science here ”
What are you saying? Give into all your impulses, become an animal? Look where permissiveness has lead, same-gender marriages just to name one. We have a Torah who teaches us boundaries, we are not repressed. If we live according to the rules, we enjoy a freedom that no other people can appreciate. Ashreinu ma tov chelkeinu.