“ As a convert myself, I find this particularly aggravating. Not only am I tired of all the missionary attacks against us, but now they have to make life more difficult for those of us who are genuine converts. As if it weren't hard enough.... ”

“ sadly, it has always been like this brother, one suffers from the other's bad behavior, and it gets harder because too many people are fakes when one is truly sincere... i feel your pain I went through the same ”

“ Here you go again…

If you follow the entire procedure of converting you should not have any problems. The problem is with the rabbinate that cares less about traditional Jewish life. They convert almost everyone who comes to them. They are a disgrace to all of Klal Yisroel

Converting is not a joke or politics. You have to be a bis din mismech, not a government run rabbinate office. Maybe the Rabbis know how to learn, but a traditional Bes Din with a Kabboleh on this issues is what you need for a convert. ”

“ They should not have allowed these geyrim in the first place, but once they have been accepted as yiddin won't it be very disruptive to the families to say "we made a mistake" and no longer recongize them as converts. ”

“ They should not have allowed these geyrim in the first place, but once they have been accepted as yiddin won't it be very disruptive to the families to say "we made a mistake" and no longer recongize them as converts. ”

“ Conversion is a tough issue.
Though we do not go out and seek converts, we do welcome a true convert with open arms. Let me rephrase that. We SHOULD welcome a true convert with open arms. There has been and unfortunately still is, some prejudice against converts. This is tragic, as the Ger or Giyeres is one of the most wonderful addition to our klall yisroel, injecting a new vibrancy in our midst. Again and again Hashem tells us to love and protect the Ger. We have been less than "Frum" is obeying that HALACHA.
Once converted, a ger or giyeres is part of klall yisroel just as much as you or I. Ahavas yisroel is a chiyuv. In fact, loving a ger is many mitzvos beyond loving any Jew.

This being said, notice I used the word: "TRUE CONVERT."

A True Convert, or Ger Tzedek, according to halacha MUST be a person who is COMMITTED TO OBEYING THE TORAH AND THE RABBINIC COMMANDMENTS.

There are no exceptions to this. Any person who converts, and inside his/her heart they believe in another diety, or they hold a belief that they will not be religious, they will not obey Shabbos, or Taharas Hamishpacha, Kasrush, etc., that person's conversion is botail. In other words the conversion never actually took place.

A woman's conversion may have taken place in 1990. She may have then married a Jewish man, and had 3 kids. These kids may have gone to Yeshiva and married Jewish boys and girls. Then, if in 2009 we discover she did not bother going to the mikvah... she only told the rabbis she would, but really did not intend to, whether her husband told her to not bother or not, as long as at the time of her conversion she did not intend to follow the laws and go to the mikvah, or keep shabbos, etc., HER CONVERSION IS RETROACTIVELY NULLIFIED!

and... HER CHILDREN ARE NOT JEWISH !!!!

This has happened way too many times in the past, and is the reason why a good, reliable conversion beis din is VERY careful in there investigation before agreeing to the conversion.

This leads some to resent it. They say we are making it too difficult to convert. But if you saw the heartbreak in the children who have to be told they are not Jewish! ... you would understand why this rigor NEEDS to be there, with no compromises.

I have seen this heartbreak. I can't think of ANY abuse a child can go through which would traumatize him/her worse than growing up as a Jewish child, and being told later you are not Jewish. You can convert if you wish to, once you are out on your own, but you can not marry a cohen, etc.,

This is only one reason we need to be double, triple, extra careful whom we allow to convert.

But, please my fellow Yidden, those who are honest, true converts must be, should be, and deserved to be loved as family. ”

“ Conversion is a tough issue.
Though we do not go out and seek converts, we do welcome a true convert with open arms. Let me rephrase that. We SHOULD welcome a true convert with open arms. There has been and unfortunately still is, some prejudice against converts. This is tragic, as the Ger or Giyeres is one of the most wonderful addition to our klall yisroel, injecting a new vibrancy in our midst. Again and again Hashem tells us to love and protect the Ger. We have been less than "Frum" is obeying that HALACHA.
Once converted, a ger or giyeres is part of klall yisroel just as much as you or I. Ahavas yisroel is a chiyuv. In fact, loving a ger is many mitzvos beyond loving any Jew.

This being said, notice I used the word: "TRUE CONVERT."

A True Convert, or Ger Tzedek, according to halacha MUST be a person who is COMMITTED TO OBEYING THE TORAH AND THE RABBINIC COMMANDMENTS.

There are no exceptions to this. Any person who converts, and inside his/her heart they believe in another diety, or they hold a belief that they will not be religious, they will not obey Shabbos, or Taharas Hamishpacha, Kasrush, etc., that person's conversion is botail. In other words the conversion never actually took place.

A woman's conversion may have taken place in 1990. She may have then married a Jewish man, and had 3 kids. These kids may have gone to Yeshiva and married Jewish boys and girls. Then, if in 2009 we discover she did not bother going to the mikvah... she only told the rabbis she would, but really did not intend to, whether her husband told her to not bother or not, as long as at the time of her conversion she did not intend to follow the laws and go to the mikvah, or keep shabbos, etc., HER CONVERSION IS RETROACTIVELY NULLIFIED!

and... HER CHILDREN ARE NOT JEWISH !!!!

This has happened way too many times in the past, and is the reason why a good, reliable conversion beis din is VERY careful in there investigation before agreeing to the conversion.

This leads some to resent it. They say we are making it too difficult to convert. But if you saw the heartbreak in the children who have to be told they are not Jewish! ... you would understand why this rigor NEEDS to be there, with no compromises.

I have seen this heartbreak. I can't think of ANY abuse a child can go through which would traumatize him/her worse than growing up as a Jewish child, and being told later you are not Jewish. You can convert if you wish to, once you are out on your own, but you can not marry a cohen, etc.,

This is only one reason we need to be double, triple, extra careful whom we allow to convert.

But, please my fellow Yidden, those who are honest, true converts must be, should be, and deserved to be loved as family. ”

“ There is no need for 17 questions. All you need ask is "Do you still believe "J" is divine and your PERSONAL savior?" They will NEVER lie about this. You can alternatively ask, "As a convert, did you renounce your belief that "J" is Moshiach and also divine?" Again, no true "believer" will lie becasue to do so means, for them, eternal damnation. it is an fool proof test. ”

“ Conversion is a tough issue.
Though we do not go out and seek converts, we do welcome a true convert with open arms. Let me rephrase that. We SHOULD welcome a true convert with open arms. There has been and unfortunately still is, some prejudice against converts. This is tragic, as the Ger or Giyeres is one of the most wonderful addition to our klall yisroel, injecting a new vibrancy in our midst. Again and again Hashem tells us to love and protect the Ger. We have been less than "Frum" is obeying that HALACHA.
Once converted, a ger or giyeres is part of klall yisroel just as much as you or I. Ahavas yisroel is a chiyuv. In fact, loving a ger is many mitzvos beyond loving any Jew.

This being said, notice I used the word: "TRUE CONVERT."

A True Convert, or Ger Tzedek, according to halacha MUST be a person who is COMMITTED TO OBEYING THE TORAH AND THE RABBINIC COMMANDMENTS.

There are no exceptions to this. Any person who converts, and inside his/her heart they believe in another diety, or they hold a belief that they will not be religious, they will not obey Shabbos, or Taharas Hamishpacha, Kasrush, etc., that person's conversion is botail. In other words the conversion never actually took place.

A woman's conversion may have taken place in 1990. She may have then married a Jewish man, and had 3 kids. These kids may have gone to Yeshiva and married Jewish boys and girls. Then, if in 2009 we discover she did not bother going to the mikvah... she only told the rabbis she would, but really did not intend to, whether her husband told her to not bother or not, as long as at the time of her conversion she did not intend to follow the laws and go to the mikvah, or keep shabbos, etc., HER CONVERSION IS RETROACTIVELY NULLIFIED!

and... HER CHILDREN ARE NOT JEWISH !!!!

This has happened way too many times in the past, and is the reason why a good, reliable conversion beis din is VERY careful in there investigation before agreeing to the conversion.

This leads some to resent it. They say we are making it too difficult to convert. But if you saw the heartbreak in the children who have to be told they are not Jewish! ... you would understand why this rigor NEEDS to be there, with no compromises.

I have seen this heartbreak. I can't think of ANY abuse a child can go through which would traumatize him/her worse than growing up as a Jewish child, and being told later you are not Jewish. You can convert if you wish to, once you are out on your own, but you can not marry a cohen, etc.,

This is only one reason we need to be double, triple, extra careful whom we allow to convert.

But, please my fellow Yidden, those who are honest, true converts must be, should be, and deserved to be loved as family. ”

“ With all due respect there wasn’t any bad behavior here, only FAKE behavior. These 60 people weren’t sincere, period. If someone converts “honestly” then they have nothing to fear and would be accepted with opened arms by everyone I know; only those not completely sincere in Kabolas Hamitsvos (which in most cases is the real sticking point) end up with problems. I don’t know what you went through, so I can’t say anything about it. Would you care tell us what pain you went through? ”

“ Conversion is a tough issue.
Though we do not go out and seek converts, we do welcome a true convert with open arms. Let me rephrase that. We SHOULD welcome a true convert with open arms. There has been and unfortunately still is, some prejudice against converts. This is tragic, as the Ger or Giyeres is one of the most wonderful addition to our klall yisroel, injecting a new vibrancy in our midst. Again and again Hashem tells us to love and protect the Ger. We have been less than "Frum" is obeying that HALACHA.
Once converted, a ger or giyeres is part of klall yisroel just as much as you or I. Ahavas yisroel is a chiyuv. In fact, loving a ger is many mitzvos beyond loving any Jew.

This being said, notice I used the word: "TRUE CONVERT."

A True Convert, or Ger Tzedek, according to halacha MUST be a person who is COMMITTED TO OBEYING THE TORAH AND THE RABBINIC COMMANDMENTS.

There are no exceptions to this. Any person who converts, and inside his/her heart they believe in another diety, or they hold a belief that they will not be religious, they will not obey Shabbos, or Taharas Hamishpacha, Kasrush, etc., that person's conversion is botail. In other words the conversion never actually took place.

A woman's conversion may have taken place in 1990. She may have then married a Jewish man, and had 3 kids. These kids may have gone to Yeshiva and married Jewish boys and girls. Then, if in 2009 we discover she did not bother going to the mikvah... she only told the rabbis she would, but really did not intend to, whether her husband told her to not bother or not, as long as at the time of her conversion she did not intend to follow the laws and go to the mikvah, or keep shabbos, etc., HER CONVERSION IS RETROACTIVELY NULLIFIED!

and... HER CHILDREN ARE NOT JEWISH !!!!

This has happened way too many times in the past, and is the reason why a good, reliable conversion beis din is VERY careful in there investigation before agreeing to the conversion.

This leads some to resent it. They say we are making it too difficult to convert. But if you saw the heartbreak in the children who have to be told they are not Jewish! ... you would understand why this rigor NEEDS to be there, with no compromises.

I have seen this heartbreak. I can't think of ANY abuse a child can go through which would traumatize him/her worse than growing up as a Jewish child, and being told later you are not Jewish. You can convert if you wish to, once you are out on your own, but you can not marry a cohen, etc.,

This is only one reason we need to be double, triple, extra careful whom we allow to convert.

But, please my fellow Yidden, those who are honest, true converts must be, should be, and deserved to be loved as family. ”

“ There is no need for 17 questions. All you need ask is "Do you still believe "J" is divine and your PERSONAL savior?" They will NEVER lie about this. You can alternatively ask, "As a convert, did you renounce your belief that "J" is Moshiach and also divine?" Again, no true "believer" will lie becasue to do so means, for them, eternal damnation. it is an fool proof test. ”

“ I beg to differ. Based Ion what I know (and don't know everything) a Ger who was Nisgayer Kahalocha is a Koshera Ger, and his/her Geirus CANNOT be retrocatively nullified.

Second you say that "There has been and unfortunately still is, some prejudice against converts". I would like to challenge you on that. I have been around Borurch Hashem quite a while and have NEVER, I repeat NEVER seen any prejudice against a Ger or Giyoires. This is to me something unheard of.

That they have difficulty with Shiduchim is NOT because of any prejudice, but because everyone is looking for a Meyuchess. Us FFB (Frum From Birth) also don’t have it easy with Shiduchim; everyone wants the Rebbe Reb Tzuts. ”

“ I beg to differ. Based Ion what I know (and don't know everything) a Ger who was Nisgayer Kahalocha is a Koshera Ger, and his/her Geirus CANNOT be retrocatively nullified.

Second you say that "There has been and unfortunately still is, some prejudice against converts". I would like to challenge you on that. I have been around Borurch Hashem quite a while and have NEVER, I repeat NEVER seen any prejudice against a Ger or Giyoires. This is to me something unheard of.

That they have difficulty with Shiduchim is NOT because of any prejudice, but because everyone is looking for a Meyuchess. Us FFB (Frum From Birth) also don’t have it easy with Shiduchim; everyone wants the Rebbe Reb Tzuts. ”

“ I beg to differ. Based Ion what I know (and don't know everything) a Ger who was Nisgayer Kahalocha is a Koshera Ger, and his/her Geirus CANNOT be retrocatively nullified.

Second you say that "There has been and unfortunately still is, some prejudice against converts". I would like to challenge you on that. I have been around Borurch Hashem quite a while and have NEVER, I repeat NEVER seen any prejudice against a Ger or Giyoires. This is to me something unheard of.

That they have difficulty with Shiduchim is NOT because of any prejudice, but because everyone is looking for a Meyuchess. Us FFB (Frum From Birth) also don’t have it easy with Shiduchim; everyone wants the Rebbe Reb Tzuts. ”

“ It would also be helpful if the questions being asked of the prospective convert are not just yes or no questions, but require a lengthy response. Perhaps a description of HOW they came to the realization that yoshke was not the messiah and that the non-testament is false. Make sure they express clearly that the person whom they are "denying before man" is the J of the non-testament, regardless of what names they are accustomed to calling him. A clear denial of him and all his claims and his followers' claims about him is what you need to hear. Some may say "he himself didn't claim to be the messiah" - yet his followers and writers of the nt made this claim on his behalf, and by some of his statements he directed adoration toward himself rather than to Hashem. Others may say he didn't claim to be G-d, yet again, round-about statements he made in the nt and actual sins he committed against the Rabbis and other Yidden clearly show him to have been a sinner. Do not allow the prospective convert to beat around the bush. You need to get a clear denial, said more than once in more than one way. Plant people in their life who will pretend to show an interest in xianity and can catch them off guard. ”

“ about the first part you wrote : this is true and there is a misunderstanding on how to react before a convert, I had this experience last year in London among chasidim when I tried to get closer to the chasidish world. Not all communities have converts and maybe it can scare them, don't know why... ”

“ I have had a few gerim tell me personally that they have felt that prejudice in many communities against them. In fact, they feel less prejudice in the Chassidishe world than they do in the other frum kehillos. At least that is what they tell me.

But, as far as the first thing, I am sorry to differ with you, but giyus IS nullified.
Well, it is not exactly nullified, it is re-defined as having never happened!

The giyur requires an honest belief on the part of the ger/giyres that he/she will be observant. If he/she thinks inside his/her head, "I am just telling the rabbis thiis, but I will not REALLY give up xxxxx." the giyur never happened!

So, it is not technically that it is nullified, it is that WE find out later that he/she never really converted no matter what documents they show us.

That is why some will not really "accept" a ger/giyeres until they SEE them be frum for a few years.

Now, if they were frum and kept the mitzvots for only one day, and at the time of giyur they honestly intended to keep all the M

”

“ The title should be corrected! 60 is not a mistake! 1 or 2 is a mistake. 60 is ablatant disregard for any semblance of normalcy. If these people in the "rabbinate" had normal jobs, they would have been fired fromt hem a long time ago. Without Rav Lifschitz, head of Yad L'Achim stepping in, who knows how much longer this outrage would have continued???? Missionary activity is a huge problem in Israel as is well known> They have millions upon millions of dollars at their expense to try and convert Yidden. Shame on such a "rabbinate"!!! 60 is not a mistake ”

“ To Rachel, Biniomin:

Having personally known a few gerei tzedek, I can't say enough of my admiration for them. I have seen the hardship they go thru, especially when it comes to shiduchim . Geirim are real truth seekers, willing to leave behind a lot, and face quite a bit of difficulty along the way. The One above knows your heart and effort. Lefum tzara agra. reward is measured by the difficulty . May Hashem bless all true geirim ”

“ Very true. That is why the best way to have gerim convert if in a kehilla to which they come daily. I know a rov who does about 2 a year. But each one must come to shul EVERY day for that whole year. They must "ACT AS IF" for that entire year, so they don't later said, i did not realize how hard this was, etc., He visits the homes with little or no notice every two or three weeks. He spends at least an hour or two in private lessons with each one every week, in addition to classes. This way he KNOWS their strengths and weaknesses.

And, he does not want them to "dress like him" or any such. No shtreimel, no bekeshe, no kurtz hoizen/white socks. They do wear a beeber hit (men) and long suit coat, langer reckel. The women wear black tights and teechels, but do not cut their own hair off until they are ready for the mikvah, sort of like a kallah.

Even after the giyur, he wants them to dress moderately for a few years. No short pants/white socks, etc., Sure, eventually they may go the whole way, but he wants them to learn that levush is not everything. These gerim can learn a daf gemura, or a Shach and Taz, know our minhagim our halachos, and "fit in" with us in every way.

But, the most important way we tend to ABUSE gerim, is to abandon them after giyur. He keeps them learning, learning with them in a daily shiur which is half gerin, half regular talmidim.

The bottom line, is he says the Ger or Giyeres must be prepared and have his/her hand held, to the point where they are fully comfotable be be part of the kehilla, and the kehilla fully comfortable with them. He even works with them on accent reduction. He does not teach them to be ashamed to be converts. They are proud of it, but KNOW they are part of the kehilla in every way. They have no problem getting shidduchim. Many of us look at the quality of the person, rather than at the Yichus.

I wish all the rest of the rabbonim who did giyur would do it like that. Screen VERY thoroughly, then take them in as if they are becoming members of the family. Educating the to the point of true equality. Make sure they are treated with that equality.

Unfortunately, you are right, most are the other way. And do not help the new ger or giyeres blend into the communities, leaving them like Yisomim, outside, looking in, not really knowing what to do, how to do it, and never really accepted other than that phony smile and handshaking in shul.

One of the worst offenders is a wonderful group known for their kiruv work. They should not be doing giyur. In their over eagerness, they don't screen well enough, which is an issue in and of itself, but... and after the giyur, they leave the new ger ignorant, with no real capability to keep the mitzvos he now needs to.

I met a ger recently. He and his wife were megayer by this group. She dresses tzniusdik, he wears a black hat and a long black jacket (won't tell you the style, for I don't want to name the group.). He davens every day, wears two pairs of tefillin, etc., But I was over his house on Shabbos, and realized he had NO CLUE as to the laws of Shabbos or cooking on Shabbos.

It was a young couple, and their bedroom had one king-sized bed.... with negel vassar bowls on each side. They were taught negel vasser, but not Taharas HaMishpacha. Oh, they knew about the mikvah, but did not know the rest.... the details.
Much of the food in their pantry was "questionable" at best. They were never taught which hechsherim to trust. In fact they actually believed the OR was "Orthodox Rabbi" as the old joke goes. They heard the joke, and thought it was real. They just thought it was a non-heimish hashgacho, and could be relied on if there was no meat in it!

I stayed with them and spent much time going over things. They cried with happiness. They KNEW they were clueless in many areas but were waiting to "assimilate" the knowledge. The mora d'asra, the rabbi who was megayer them, and whom I do respect, never really had time for them after the giyur, and believed they knew much more than they did. Because his smicha bochurim hung around with them, he thought they taught them. Meanwhile the bochurim only wanted friends who allowed them to watch TV. This couple actually learned some bad things from these "chassidishe" smicha students.

Please folks, encourage your rabbi (if he does giyur) to be more careful, and when he does do it, to give them a cultural education as well as a halachic education..... and all of you, help them fit in. They are a precious part of our nation. ”

“ If I may share personnal points of views :

"But, the most important way we tend to ABUSE gerim, is to abandon them after giyur. He keeps them learning, learning with them in a daily shiur which is half gerin, half regular talmidim."
- from what I know in general, and particularly the process of my local Beis Din, once the person went to mikvah, there is a break because the person doesn't feel obligated to continue intense learning, attending shul daily... A bried example of the method over here : class everyday, meeting with Rav in charge of the conversion once a month, meeting with Dayan every 2-3 months (or it depends, in my case every 6months). Scholars, Rabbis etc report on when the person was in class or not here and the progression, also they have spies watching all the time.
From the moment I saw the previous girls done with conversion process, I never ever saw them again, no class, not in the community and of course, how to stay strong in yiddishkeit when not fully involved in the jewish daily life ?!
I think it's easier when in conversion because one knows that if doesn't go to class there's gonna be a report, so the motivation is also a question of fear, but then after, no fear = no motivation ?
I wouldn't blame it all on the converts because it really ask lot of courage and strength to keep doing the same after getting the geirus, Rabbis are also there, in my opinion, to keep in touch and make sure that everything is okay after conversion, this is also part of their responsability. It's better to have less prospective convert and make sure they help them like their own children, because one shouldn't forget that the convert is like an orphan, the rabbi is not just a teacher but should be like a father to guide and comfort and help.

I met a ger recently. He and his wife were megayer by this group. She dresses tzniusdik, he wears a black hat and a long black jacket (won't tell you the style, for I don't want to name the group.). He davens every day, wears two pairs of tefillin, etc., But I was over his house on Shabbos, and realized he had NO CLUE as to the laws of Shabbos or cooking on Shabbos"
- and the following paragraph you wrote, I don't know what Beis Din converted him/them, but maybe the Rabbi was really chareidi and serious but had absolutely no knowledgement on what to teach a convert to be able to manage on his own on the basis. Usually converts learn a lot :
an example of books : kitzur shulchan aruch, sefer hamitzvot, shemirat shabbat kehilchata, chumash rashi
an example of program or what I studied with rabbonim : brachot, prayers, jewish history, holidays, tznius, taharat hamishpacha etc ”

“ No, he (#14) was right. It is a teshuva from Rav Moshe. The gerus IS nullified retroactively, if it is later discovered that there was a lack of sincerity/honesty about intent to keep halachos at the time of giyur. ”

“ Unfortunately I too have seen prejudice, especially here in Mod Orth shuls against gerim. Oh, they are very outwardly friendly, but that is it. ”

“ Don't blame the rabbonim. They clearly are doing their best to screen geyrim and considering the tens of thousand that convert each year, this is no big deal. They are doing the best they can to balance halacha and practical considerations including what is required of them by the Chief Rabbinate whose views obviously govern in all matters of torah and halacha. ”

“ Very true. That is why the best way to have gerim convert if in a kehilla to which they come daily. I know a rov who does about 2 a year. But each one must come to shul EVERY day for that whole year. They must "ACT AS IF" for that entire year, so they don't later said, i did not realize how hard this was, etc., He visits the homes with little or no notice every two or three weeks. He spends at least an hour or two in private lessons with each one every week, in addition to classes. This way he KNOWS their strengths and weaknesses.

And, he does not want them to "dress like him" or any such. No shtreimel, no bekeshe, no kurtz hoizen/white socks. They do wear a beeber hit (men) and long suit coat, langer reckel. The women wear black tights and teechels, but do not cut their own hair off until they are ready for the mikvah, sort of like a kallah.

Even after the giyur, he wants them to dress moderately for a few years. No short pants/white socks, etc., Sure, eventually they may go the whole way, but he wants them to learn that levush is not everything. These gerim can learn a daf gemura, or a Shach and Taz, know our minhagim our halachos, and "fit in" with us in every way.

But, the most important way we tend to ABUSE gerim, is to abandon them after giyur. He keeps them learning, learning with them in a daily shiur which is half gerin, half regular talmidim.

The bottom line, is he says the Ger or Giyeres must be prepared and have his/her hand held, to the point where they are fully comfotable be be part of the kehilla, and the kehilla fully comfortable with them. He even works with them on accent reduction. He does not teach them to be ashamed to be converts. They are proud of it, but KNOW they are part of the kehilla in every way. They have no problem getting shidduchim. Many of us look at the quality of the person, rather than at the Yichus.

I wish all the rest of the rabbonim who did giyur would do it like that. Screen VERY thoroughly, then take them in as if they are becoming members of the family. Educating the to the point of true equality. Make sure they are treated with that equality.

Unfortunately, you are right, most are the other way. And do not help the new ger or giyeres blend into the communities, leaving them like Yisomim, outside, looking in, not really knowing what to do, how to do it, and never really accepted other than that phony smile and handshaking in shul.

One of the worst offenders is a wonderful group known for their kiruv work. They should not be doing giyur. In their over eagerness, they don't screen well enough, which is an issue in and of itself, but... and after the giyur, they leave the new ger ignorant, with no real capability to keep the mitzvos he now needs to.

I met a ger recently. He and his wife were megayer by this group. She dresses tzniusdik, he wears a black hat and a long black jacket (won't tell you the style, for I don't want to name the group.). He davens every day, wears two pairs of tefillin, etc., But I was over his house on Shabbos, and realized he had NO CLUE as to the laws of Shabbos or cooking on Shabbos.

It was a young couple, and their bedroom had one king-sized bed.... with negel vassar bowls on each side. They were taught negel vasser, but not Taharas HaMishpacha. Oh, they knew about the mikvah, but did not know the rest.... the details.
Much of the food in their pantry was "questionable" at best. They were never taught which hechsherim to trust. In fact they actually believed the OR was "Orthodox Rabbi" as the old joke goes. They heard the joke, and thought it was real. They just thought it was a non-heimish hashgacho, and could be relied on if there was no meat in it!

I stayed with them and spent much time going over things. They cried with happiness. They KNEW they were clueless in many areas but were waiting to "assimilate" the knowledge. The mora d'asra, the rabbi who was megayer them, and whom I do respect, never really had time for them after the giyur, and believed they knew much more than they did. Because his smicha bochurim hung around with them, he thought they taught them. Meanwhile the bochurim only wanted friends who allowed them to watch TV. This couple actually learned some bad things from these "chassidishe" smicha students.

Please folks, encourage your rabbi (if he does giyur) to be more careful, and when he does do it, to give them a cultural education as well as a halachic education..... and all of you, help them fit in. They are a precious part of our nation. ”

“ I hear you. I am not sure though if you are agreeing that we need to spend more time with gerim after the mikvah or not. Please respond and clarify. I would love to hear your point of view.

The two rabbonim I mentioned, one was VERY Chassidish, shtreimel, white socks, etc., He was "super chareidi" as many would say. He was the one who took much longer, gave more individual attention, and kept classes going permanently after the mikvah. In his group, the mikvah as not an "end" but rather the permanent introduction into the kehilla as a sort of family member. His converts are able to learn just like any FFB, some better.

The other one, whom I advised to be more careful, is also "chassidic" but another type, with a black felt hat, etc., He appears more worldly, and is involved in a major Kiruv campaign, but, in my opinion, fails at the giyur thing, because with him once you come out of the mikvah, you have achieved the goal. His time is spent on fishing for new fish. The ones already caught are left on the pier so to speak.

Learning from those books you mention is great, but very difficult to do on one's own. Sure, you can read and understand on your own, but that is not the same as being guided in the application of what you learn. That first chapter of the Gantzfried's Kitzur is a very holy chapter. But very confusing to many newcomers. It is easy to read that and say, "nobody I know follows all this... maybe the rest needs to not be followed so carefully either."
That would be a big mistake.

Most of the shulchan aruch is followed exactly, as defined/adjusted/explained by the rabbonim of this and the last generation. But, that first chapter, although it is true, and is an ideal for us to strive for, is not a level reached by the majority of even chareidi people.

It is important to have a guide to go through these books with you, and guide you as to what we do, and how we do it today, in today's Chareidi world.

Even the wonderful Artscroll Halacha Series, which I VERY HIGHLY recommend to any baal teshuva or ger, often gives multiple opinions, and the newbie is left clueless which opinions to follow. Having a buddy at your side for each chapter is a big help.

Even a rather mundane as having pets, creates areas of halacha which many chareidi rabbis are themselves "knowledgable but clueless" about.... meaning they many know the halacha from books, but never think about it because they never had a pet. This is a challenge to make baalei teshuva and many gerim. You come with pets, which you love, and have no guidance in how to care for them according to halacha.

For instance. I was at a frum man's home, a baal teshuva who has been frum for 4 years now. He has 2 older dogs which he had from before. I noticed he was using dog food which we can't use. Though it is fine to feed a dog treif, it is not okay to feed him "Basar B'cholov"

Meat and Milk mixtures are forbidden to receive any benefit from, and one may not even feed it to a dog. This complicates dog ownership, as most of the commercial dog foods are basar b'chalav.

Also, on the same halacha, I met one ger, very frum, who worked in Checkers. He himself was strictly Glatt kosher and would never even drink a Pepsi from the place he worked. But he did not understand that it is just as forbidden to make that cheeseburger as it is to eat it!
When I explained something all FFBs know, that meat/milk mixtures are triple forbidden, we are banned from cooking meat and milk together, banned from eating it, and banned from receiving ANY benefit from it..... he was shocked. He wanted to know why nobody taught him that. He knew to put on Rabbainu Tam tefillin, he learned "chassidus" every morning, but nobody told him he can't cook that cheeseburger!
What had happened, is that everyone "assumed" he knew. When I went to his rov and asked, he responded, "But everybody knows that cooking a cheeseburger is the same sin as eating a cheeseburger, he had to know." But when I asked him, "Who taught him?" he had a shocked look on his face. He realized then that he had dropped the ball.

I am saying we need to spend more time guiding and helping the converts. Continuing education should be standard. But..... how do we expect them to want and even expect continuing education if we have no programs of continuing study in our shuls.

”

“ Sure I'll clarify I didn't realize I didn't make myself understand that OF COURSE OF COURSE Rabbonim need to spend more time with the Ger, before to make sure of the reasons why,how difficult it is to convert (I'd say for two main reason : judaism itself as it's maybe one of the hardest religion to follow, and with all the persecution/hate from goyim, and for changing every little thing from the past life as an individual and with family). Then of course during the conversion process to make sure that the person is comfortable with the learning and practise not to push or force if not yet ready it may take longer from one to another person, and for guidance, explanation, and some Rabbonim will say 'it's the halacha to push away a convert to see if really sincere he/she will come back' okay, but pushing away all the time isn't a good thing either, because this journey is to be a beautiful experience not a torture !
and the most important AFTER the conversion : I can't talk about other Batei Din, but as far as I know, a lot of people enroll conversion program, and it's a lot of work for the rabbonim, it can be hard to keep in touch after the conversion is done, but i personnally think it's a must, because this is where we klal yisroel lose these people. I looked around me a lot durin my own process, this is where I realized that if not fully committed to the community one can totally lose yiddishkeit. Is it yetser hora as I heard or just too lazy ? It's important, according to me, to still go to class, meet with rabbonim, or at least call them but this is come from rabbonim, they should care more about the "after"...

Of course what I mentionned about the learning program is not something one can do alone, even though there is a for a big part a lot of personnal study, it's a complement in the sources of what rabbonim teach during class. and one should not be afraid of saying "I don't know" during an interview with the Rav, people are scared that the Rav will judge and say "you didn't learn well"

I will tell you, as frum as a Rabbi can be, as good as his intention can be true and pure, this doesn't mean that the Rabbi is "qualified" to perform a conversion, it's NOT an easy task, and not everyone should be involved in this "business", there are specific institutions, batei din who have done conversions for many years and know how to do.

For what people can learn, sometimes it's not in the very detail of the halacha and a convert doesn't know or isn't supposed to know everything, a convert needs to learn and get used to the mitzvos and lifestyle and feel jewish, then the learning is still a big part to do after...A lot of people think that they know enough after the conversion program and they are ensure not to make mistake in the principe but I still learn a loooot of things that I didn't know in the very much detail, and the more I learn, the more I see that there is so much to know, so it's actually great to see that it never ends : that's judaism... you improve yourself every single day in observance, knowlegdment, midot... ”

“ No, he (#14) was right. It is a teshuva from Rav Moshe. The gerus IS nullified retroactively, if it is later discovered that there was a lack of sincerity/honesty about intent to keep halachos at the time of giyur. ”

“ It would also be helpful if the questions being asked of the prospective convert are not just yes or no questions, but require a lengthy response. Perhaps a description of HOW they came to the realization that yoshke was not the messiah and that the non-testament is false. Make sure they express clearly that the person whom they are "denying before man" is the J of the non-testament, regardless of what names they are accustomed to calling him. A clear denial of him and all his claims and his followers' claims about him is what you need to hear. Some may say "he himself didn't claim to be the messiah" - yet his followers and writers of the nt made this claim on his behalf, and by some of his statements he directed adoration toward himself rather than to Hashem. Others may say he didn't claim to be G-d, yet again, round-about statements he made in the nt and actual sins he committed against the Rabbis and other Yidden clearly show him to have been a sinner. Do not allow the prospective convert to beat around the bush. You need to get a clear denial, said more than once in more than one way. Plant people in their life who will pretend to show an interest in xianity and can catch them off guard. ”

“ Hey fella's, wher exactly is LEV l'achim?? it's been quite a few years that we heard anything from them... meanawhile YAD l'achim seems it's as active as it gets...
so why exactly did they feel the urge/need to open that other organisation LEV l'achim??? ”

“ It is not so poshut

Remember, these are not inherently evil people. They are honest believers in their faith, and honestly believe that those who don't believe will have no salvation. They look as us as people in danger of losing our souls, our "salvation" and need to be "saved."
They often devote much of their time, effort, and own money to "Save the lives" they are trying to save.

In the eyes of the Evangelical Chr**tian, to get a non believer to believe in J is like saving a life. He/she may feel it is okay to lie, to have opportunities to "saves lives."

Would any of us lie to save a life? I know I would.
I know a few Evangelical Chr**tians who told me they WOULD lie, they would even deny J, if to do so gave them a chance at "Saving a Jew."
They believe that what is in their hearts is what G-d counts. So, if they lie, denying J, but thinking in their hearts "No, I really do believe that J is the son of G-d, died on the cross, and rose on the third day, .... and is my personal savior." Then they are fine. They never gave up their belief, they just did what was necessary to save a human life. ”

“ Thank you for bringing up this VERY important fact that many do not know.

You are dead-on right.

That happened to my cousin. He married a Beis Yaakov girl, and their baby was just born, when it came out she was not Jewish, be cause her mother was not converted properly. Her mother had told the rabbonim she would be frum, but was not frum for the first 3 years after her giyur, until she met my cousin's father.

He saw her as a baal teshuva and did not know she was a giyeres. When it came out, he ran to the rov and asked the shaila. He wife, my cousin's mother, admitted that she originally converted because she wanted to date and marry a Jewish man, because they seemed nicer. She did not really keep Shabbos in private, not even right after her giyur. She had lied to the rabbis at the time of the giyur. Then, when she fell in love and married a frum man, she became frum.
The rov had no choice but to tell her, she was never Jewish, and her daughter, my married cousin is not Jewish.... and the baby is not Jewish.

She is now in the process of giyur, and the child has to wait.

A bunch of hearts were broken, and now the child will be having to face giyur himself...

We need to tighten up and make giyur much harder. Not because we are being mean, but because that is the KINDER way in the long run. ”

“ Conversion is a tough issue.
Though we do not go out and seek converts, we do welcome a true convert with open arms. Let me rephrase that. We SHOULD welcome a true convert with open arms. There has been and unfortunately still is, some prejudice against converts. This is tragic, as the Ger or Giyeres is one of the most wonderful addition to our klall yisroel, injecting a new vibrancy in our midst. Again and again Hashem tells us to love and protect the Ger. We have been less than "Frum" is obeying that HALACHA.
Once converted, a ger or giyeres is part of klall yisroel just as much as you or I. Ahavas yisroel is a chiyuv. In fact, loving a ger is many mitzvos beyond loving any Jew.

This being said, notice I used the word: "TRUE CONVERT."

A True Convert, or Ger Tzedek, according to halacha MUST be a person who is COMMITTED TO OBEYING THE TORAH AND THE RABBINIC COMMANDMENTS.

There are no exceptions to this. Any person who converts, and inside his/her heart they believe in another diety, or they hold a belief that they will not be religious, they will not obey Shabbos, or Taharas Hamishpacha, Kasrush, etc., that person's conversion is botail. In other words the conversion never actually took place.

A woman's conversion may have taken place in 1990. She may have then married a Jewish man, and had 3 kids. These kids may have gone to Yeshiva and married Jewish boys and girls. Then, if in 2009 we discover she did not bother going to the mikvah... she only told the rabbis she would, but really did not intend to, whether her husband told her to not bother or not, as long as at the time of her conversion she did not intend to follow the laws and go to the mikvah, or keep shabbos, etc., HER CONVERSION IS RETROACTIVELY NULLIFIED!

and... HER CHILDREN ARE NOT JEWISH !!!!

This has happened way too many times in the past, and is the reason why a good, reliable conversion beis din is VERY careful in there investigation before agreeing to the conversion.

This leads some to resent it. They say we are making it too difficult to convert. But if you saw the heartbreak in the children who have to be told they are not Jewish! ... you would understand why this rigor NEEDS to be there, with no compromises.

I have seen this heartbreak. I can't think of ANY abuse a child can go through which would traumatize him/her worse than growing up as a Jewish child, and being told later you are not Jewish. You can convert if you wish to, once you are out on your own, but you can not marry a cohen, etc.,

This is only one reason we need to be double, triple, extra careful whom we allow to convert.

But, please my fellow Yidden, those who are honest, true converts must be, should be, and deserved to be loved as family. ”

“ Here you go again…

If you follow the entire procedure of converting you should not have any problems. The problem is with the rabbinate that cares less about traditional Jewish life. They convert almost everyone who comes to them. They are a disgrace to all of Klal Yisroel

Converting is not a joke or politics. You have to be a bis din mismech, not a government run rabbinate office. Maybe the Rabbis know how to learn, but a traditional Bes Din with a Kabboleh on this issues is what you need for a convert. ”

“ What is the Halacha, are they Yidden? That a mistake was made, is the Rabbinates problem, but it seems to me that Giyur Bleibt Giyur.

BTW, how does such a thing happen that 60 people can fool the Rasbbonim? It bewilders me. ”

“ If Reb Moshe says so, then who am I to argue? Please let me know where that Teshuva is, as it intrigues me. We all know that “Ger Shenisgaiyer Kekoton Shenolod”, and he/she becomes a Berya Chadosho to the point that the physical parents aren’t anymore Halachadiga Parents and siblings aren’t anymore Halachadiga siblings. So the Tevila in Mikvah PHYSICALLY created a Berya Chadosho; so how can it be annulled retroactively? If Reb Moshe said so then I don’t question it; I just want to know how he explains it. ”

“ Because IF there was never a sincere kabolas ol mitzvos, i.e. AT THE TIME the candidate was lying and did not believe that from this point on Hashem was going to expect him to keep mitzvos, then the giyur never happened and no berya chadosho was created. Imagine instead that the mikveh was discovered to be posul, and we can establish that the psul happened before the giyur; nobody would claim that he's a yid anyway. This is the same, except that it's very difficult to establish without telepathy.

Note very well that the ger is not expected to actually keep all the mitzvos perfectly; it's expected that he will slip, sometimes out of ignorance and sometimes out of yetzer horoh. It's even possible that at the time he knows he has a big yetzer horoh for a certain issur, and he will not be able to keep himself away from it, and he has no intention of even trying because it's too hard; that is still a valid kabolas ol mitzvos and a kosher giyur, because he accepts that he will now be obligated in that mitzvah just like every yid. He accepts that when he does that avera he will be a rosho and he will have to account for it after 120. He just decides he'd rather have a yiddishe gehenom than a goyishe gan eden, and he hopes that before he dies he will find the strength to do teshuvah. But if he doesn't even accept the mitzvah, if he believes that the rabbis made it up and Hashem doesn't really want this of him, then he is NOT a ger, and the mikveh achieved nothing. The difference between these two is crucial, but subtle, and it's almost impossible to tell them apart without telepathy. ”

“ Thank you Milhouse, but I could have written the same answer word by word. You are actually right but I must admit not understanding fully the subject; that’s why if you can tell me where is the Teshuvah of Reb Moshe, I would greatly appreciate it.

Now as a challenge, for you and those still reading stale news. Yannei Hamelech converted the Adomim, (Esov’s descendants) against or maybe with their will. So if it was Pashtus against their will, how could they be considered Jewish, there wasn’t any Kabolas Hamitzvos? It is very likely that they weren’t considered Jewish Al Pi Halacha and therefore when Agrippas Hamelech Leined Hakhel and he came to the Posuk Mikerev Achecho Tosim Olecho Melech, Zolgu Einov Demouois, Omru Loi “Ochinu Atoh” Ochinu Otoh. Got to go, but I’m sure you get the gist. ”

“ If they were mekabel ol mitzvos then it doesn't matter that they were forced to do it. The reason Agripas was not "mikerev achecho" is because he was descended entirely from gerim (assuming that Mariamne was really dead and not the mother of Herod's children). ”