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Jerusalem - Thousands Of Charedim To Attend Peaceful Prayer Vigil Against 'Chilul Shabbas' |
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Jul 07, 2009 at 04:12 PM
News Source: Jpost By ETGAR LEFKOVITS
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The late-afternoon event, slated to take place in the city's Mea She'arim neighborhood, is being organized by the Eda Haredit.
The two-hour prayer rally and a children's march have a police permit, Jerusalem Police spokesman Shmuel Ben-Ruby said.
An Eda Haredit spokesman said Tuesday that the event would be peaceful.
Last month's opening of a Jerusalem parking garage Shabbat to accommodate weekend visitors to the city has spurred violent haredi protests there.
The Eda Haredit official said the organization would plan its weekend actions, if any, after Wednesday's event.
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Read Comments (42) — Post Yours »
1
Jul 07, 2009 at 04:28 PM Anonymous Says:
All of you who claimed last week that the Zionist will not grant a permit and I told you Israel is a democracy and they will, well “I TOLD YOU SO”
2
Jul 07, 2009 at 04:30 PM RJ Says:
a "peaceful" event organized by the Eida Charedis, an oxymoron if I've ever heard one
3
Jul 07, 2009 at 04:28 PM Simcha Says:
I am sure that this will turn out violent as well.
4
Jul 07, 2009 at 05:44 PM Anonymous Says:
“ a "peaceful" event organized by the Eida Charedis, an oxymoron if I've ever heard one ”
that's moitey shem rah. the BD"Z of the Eidah Charedis are talmidei chachomim and tzadikim gemurim, who are you?
5
Jul 07, 2009 at 05:46 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I am sure that this will turn out violent as well. ”
maybe it will, but most likey the violence will be started by the riot police as it usualy is. just like in amona, and just like in many other peaceful protests.
6
Jul 07, 2009 at 05:54 PM JD Says:
How many burned garbage cans is the upper limit of peaceful? I hope zero.
7
Jul 07, 2009 at 05:17 PM Anonymous Says:
“ a "peaceful" event organized by the Eida Charedis, an oxymoron if I've ever heard one ”
I believe the vast majority of those who will be going, are peaceful, good people. The Eida WANTS it to be peaceful.
But, it IS likely to turn out otherwise, because the police are INSTRUCTED to taunt, and incite the protesters, since they actually want it to turn violent.
They will carefully shove just the right teens, when they have opportunities to do so without witnesses. They can tell which kids are more likely to be easily provoked.
This is the standard procedure. Push until they push back, and make the pushing back the day's news.
Just remember, the bochurim are not well trained in this. They are not trained to be in these situations and to keep their kool. So, when they are pushed and spoken to in mean and angry tones and words, it is THEY who lose their temper, misbehave, and make Chareidim look bad.
8
Jul 07, 2009 at 05:15 PM Rochel Says:
let's give them a chance, I believe it comes from the bottom of their heart and inner soul, so I can only support this, because they really believe in what they do, and I would do the same, they only want to protect the holy torah, of course i wouldn't support riots... we'll see
9
Jul 07, 2009 at 04:50 PM to all the anti chareidim commenters Says:
the eida comes out repeatedly and says they do not support the violent protests. if it turns out violent which i cant say wont happen it will not be endorsed by the eida. there will be almost 40000 by this rally. afterward probably not even 5000 mostly americans mind you will become violent and that is what you people read. although it is inexcusable and a major chillul Hashem you people dont see the other 35000 protesting peacefull. you are like CNN. you dont read between the lines and you close your eyes to the blatant truth because you are for some reason filled with a hate for chareidim. you are unfortunately self hating Jews who may keep Shabbos but dont give a hoot that people desecrate it in Yerushalim mere yards from the Kosel and Makom HaMikdash.
10
Jul 07, 2009 at 06:14 PM shimon Says:
“ that's moitey shem rah. the BD"Z of the Eidah Charedis are talmidei chachomim and tzadikim gemurim, who are you? ”
Most people don't realize that the Eidah is not identical with its Beis Din, and that there is also a "lay" political and ideological leadership. Or do you really believe that the main decisions are made by RY"T Weiss and RM"D Soloveitchik?
11
Jul 07, 2009 at 06:18 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I believe the vast majority of those who will be going, are peaceful, good people. The Eida WANTS it to be peaceful.
But, it IS likely to turn out otherwise, because the police are INSTRUCTED to taunt, and incite the protesters, since they actually want it to turn violent.
They will carefully shove just the right teens, when they have opportunities to do so without witnesses. They can tell which kids are more likely to be easily provoked.
This is the standard procedure. Push until they push back, and make the pushing back the day's news.
Just remember, the bochurim are not well trained in this. They are not trained to be in these situations and to keep their kool. So, when they are pushed and spoken to in mean and angry tones and words, it is THEY who lose their temper, misbehave, and make Chareidim look bad. ”
while i agree the yasamnikim are provocateurs, the eida should instruct only yingermen and balabatish men of a certain age to attend, and NO TEEN bucherim, so as not to give any excuses
12
Jul 07, 2009 at 07:14 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Most people don't realize that the Eidah is not identical with its Beis Din, and that there is also a "lay" political and ideological leadership. Or do you really believe that the main decisions are made by RY"T Weiss and RM"D Soloveitchik? ”
Rav Dovid Soloveitchick is not on the BD"Z. He is affiliated with the BD"Z, but not a formal member.
Furtheremore, the BD"Z gave their stamp of approval to this demonstration i.e. Rav Yitzchok Tuvia Weiss, Rav Moshe Shternbauch etc.
13
Jul 07, 2009 at 06:52 PM zev Says:
“ the eida comes out repeatedly and says they do not support the violent protests. if it turns out violent which i cant say wont happen it will not be endorsed by the eida. there will be almost 40000 by this rally. afterward probably not even 5000 mostly americans mind you will become violent and that is what you people read. although it is inexcusable and a major chillul Hashem you people dont see the other 35000 protesting peacefull. you are like CNN. you dont read between the lines and you close your eyes to the blatant truth because you are for some reason filled with a hate for chareidim. you are unfortunately self hating Jews who may keep Shabbos but dont give a hoot that people desecrate it in Yerushalim mere yards from the Kosel and Makom HaMikdash. ”
Its YOU, and your Rabbonim, who don't care about people not keeping shabbos. How many of the Eida Rabbonim encourage their followerers to work in Kiruv? - the only REAL method that will have any REAL results.
These protests, whether they are peacefull or not. DOES NOT MAKE A SINGLE JEW START KEEPING SHABBOS.
Now WHO are the real frum people who CARE about their fellow Jew keeping shabbos? NOT the Eidah.
14
Jul 07, 2009 at 06:40 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Most people don't realize that the Eidah is not identical with its Beis Din, and that there is also a "lay" political and ideological leadership. Or do you really believe that the main decisions are made by RY"T Weiss and RM"D Soloveitchik? ”
I really don’t care who makes the decision, for thousands of years nobody threw rocks and nappies, at anybody, I beg of you please show me even one source before 1948 and all way back to the destruction of the Temple, that will proof to me that a Gadal Yisroel threw or encourage of throwing rocks at Chillul Shabbos, please no stories real citations are welcome.
15
Jul 07, 2009 at 06:38 PM Simcha Says:
“ maybe it will, but most likey the violence will be started by the riot police as it usualy is. just like in amona, and just like in many other peaceful protests. ”
You are fooling yourself if you believe that the violence was started by the police. Stop drinking the koolaid. These rotestors that are supposedly "protecting" the sacntity of shabbos are desecrating both shabbos and the name of G-d. Any violent protestor or out of control rioter, including those spitting and throwing rocks, should be thrown into prison. This is not the best way to get the message across.
16
Jul 07, 2009 at 08:06 PM sharona Says:
That's good that they are going to have a prayer vigil and march. This way, the message is sent in a good way.
I agree about preventing chillul shabbos in the holy city. If we Jews don't, we are held accountable. It should be stopped in a proper way though. A prayer vigil is an excellent idea
17
Jul 07, 2009 at 08:05 PM shimon Says:
“ Rav Dovid Soloveitchick is not on the BD"Z. He is affiliated with the BD"Z, but not a formal member.
Furtheremore, the BD"Z gave their stamp of approval to this demonstration i.e. Rav Yitzchok Tuvia Weiss, Rav Moshe Shternbauch etc. ”
He's not a dayan of Badatz. He's the Nassi! Originaly this title was given to Reb Yoelish, after him to Beirach Moshe za"l. Since there was a split in Satmar and RMDS lives in Yerushalim, he got the title. Or so I've heard from reliable Yerushalmim.
18
Jul 07, 2009 at 07:57 PM PMO Says:
Unfortunately, the organizers of these things do NOTHING to prevent the violence. They do nothing to keep those who are more "extreme" away from their demonstrations. They take NO responsibility whatsoever other than to say "we don't condone violence". If they were REALLY serious about these protests being peaceful demonstrations, they would work hard to keep the extremists in their midsts AWAY.
19
Jul 07, 2009 at 08:41 PM Anonymous Says:
“ He's not a dayan of Badatz. He's the Nassi! Originaly this title was given to Reb Yoelish, after him to Beirach Moshe za"l. Since there was a split in Satmar and RMDS lives in Yerushalim, he got the title. Or so I've heard from reliable Yerushalmim. ”
To those of us not so familiar with charaidi politics, what is the difference whether he is the Badatz, the Grand Nassi or Gabai Shilishi...the point is that Rabbi David Soloveitchick has lent his credibility to this demonstration and needs to assure that he has done all possible to protect against any repitition of prior events where violence has flared
20
Jul 07, 2009 at 08:21 PM Yossi Says:
“ I really don’t care who makes the decision, for thousands of years nobody threw rocks and nappies, at anybody, I beg of you please show me even one source before 1948 and all way back to the destruction of the Temple, that will proof to me that a Gadal Yisroel threw or encourage of throwing rocks at Chillul Shabbos, please no stories real citations are welcome. ”
Before 1948 there was not a jewish state out there officialy promoting chilul shabbos. There was never a chilul hashem like that before the zionist state came to reality. That's why no one ever promoted these kind of protests. Not to say that the ehrliche yidden promote these violences taking place, which I agree is a big chilul hashem.
21
Jul 07, 2009 at 10:16 PM Anonymous Says:
Did the EIDA take out a pemit for the protest? If yes I think its the 1st time
22
Jul 07, 2009 at 10:10 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I believe the vast majority of those who will be going, are peaceful, good people. The Eida WANTS it to be peaceful.
But, it IS likely to turn out otherwise, because the police are INSTRUCTED to taunt, and incite the protesters, since they actually want it to turn violent.
They will carefully shove just the right teens, when they have opportunities to do so without witnesses. They can tell which kids are more likely to be easily provoked.
This is the standard procedure. Push until they push back, and make the pushing back the day's news.
Just remember, the bochurim are not well trained in this. They are not trained to be in these situations and to keep their kool. So, when they are pushed and spoken to in mean and angry tones and words, it is THEY who lose their temper, misbehave, and make Chareidim look bad. ”
"Just remember, the bochurim are not well trained in this. They are not trained to be in these situations and to keep their kool. So, when they are pushed and spoken to in mean and angry tones and words, it is THEY who lose their temper, misbehave, and make Chareidim look bad". Then they shouldn't be there. The risk is too great.
23
Jul 07, 2009 at 11:05 PM Anonymous Says:
Oh come on guys we have to understand this is totaly diff than america there is no respect between cops and people (both ways)the police are waiting for this and they love it they jump on the protesters like a cat to food but by the end of day that's the only way to get thru (at least what history was proven)
24
Jul 07, 2009 at 10:55 PM Anonymous Says:
“ while i agree the yasamnikim are provocateurs, the eida should instruct only yingermen and balabatish men of a certain age to attend, and NO TEEN bucherim, so as not to give any excuses ”
100% right. But they (the Eida) speak from both sides of their mouths. They WANT trouble, but they won't get their own hands dirty so they let hothead kids take the blame. Talk about incitement to riot! These Rabbis have it fine-tuned!
25
Jul 07, 2009 at 10:44 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Before 1948 there was not a jewish state out there officialy promoting chilul shabbos. There was never a chilul hashem like that before the zionist state came to reality. That's why no one ever promoted these kind of protests. Not to say that the ehrliche yidden promote these violences taking place, which I agree is a big chilul hashem. ”
I knew you will reply in that manor, my reply to you is 1 The state of Israel was established as a democracy, not a theocracy the vast majority people are not religious, and you cannot have mob rule. 2 Through Jewish history, there were always Jews who did not comply with the Orthodox view; there is no history of protests with this 21st century vigor. That tells me that it is a new 21st century fashion but nothing to do with being Jewish.
26
Jul 08, 2009 at 06:29 AM borich Says:
They should NOT have these demonstrations. They accomplish NOTHING. Instead all frum people should show respect and love to other Yidden and be very polite and considerate and kind. THAT would bring people to Yiddishkeit. These demonstrations drive generations away!
27
Jul 08, 2009 at 06:23 AM Anonymous Says:
“ "Just remember, the bochurim are not well trained in this. They are not trained to be in these situations and to keep their kool. So, when they are pushed and spoken to in mean and angry tones and words, it is THEY who lose their temper, misbehave, and make Chareidim look bad". Then they shouldn't be there. The risk is too great.
”
Then who else?
28
Jul 08, 2009 at 05:57 AM THEOCRACY is Torah Way NOT Democracy Says:
“ I knew you will reply in that manor, my reply to you is 1 The state of Israel was established as a democracy, not a theocracy the vast majority people are not religious, and you cannot have mob rule. 2 Through Jewish history, there were always Jews who did not comply with the Orthodox view; there is no history of protests with this 21st century vigor. That tells me that it is a new 21st century fashion but nothing to do with being Jewish. ”
Yes, it is a tragedy that the State of Israel was formed as a democracy. Unfortunately, though that may be the Will of the Majority, that is not Torah Law. For many, many years the Jews have not been self governing. Unfortunately, when they got a chance, they "choose" the gentile method, of letting the lowest element, the majority, rule over, and dominate the strongest, the majority.
In the case of Israel, it started off as the majority, who were atheist/agnostic/non-practicing Jews, making a government, to govern and rule their old-fashioned, g-d believing, Torah Observant,Jews.,
,
Not only does this mean oppression of the Chareidi, but as practiced, it is a government policy to obliterate, marginalize and belittle the Chareidi to assure his opinions are not really even considered. They carefully, VERY carefully manipulate issues to continuously poke just enough fun at their observant minority, to keep people marginalizing them. Everey time a religious group is for something, the rest of the country is naturally against it. It has become a natural antagonism. Very tragic, but real.
But all this is only part of the story. As Jews, we are OBLIGATED BY GOD, not obligated by political correctness, not obligated by majority rule, not obligated by any modern governmental structure. We have no choice other than to Obey the Laws of the Torah which came from God, not any Kennesset or other man-made body.
Non-observant man has turned the word THEOCRACY into a dirty word. But THEOCRACY IS THE JEWISH WAY...... NOT DEMOCRACY.
THEOCRACY maybe not be politically correct, but is the ONLY way we could be, al pi Torah.
Sure, until Moshiach comes it is not clear if we are allowed to have ANY government, and many do hold that it needs to be a gentile rule until Moshiach comes. I will not even deal with this issue in this post. It is more likely the correct opinion, but not the purpose of this post. The purpose is: But, if and when we do rule, IT MUST BE A THEOCRACY.
Can you imagine having a democracy in the midbar? What would have happened to Moshe when he came down with the Luchos?
Those who are not observant, and many Liberal observant Jews, or those slaves to PC ideas are horrified that Jews would have a Theocracy. But, that IS the Torah way, whether you like it or not.
29
Jul 08, 2009 at 07:14 AM Anonymous Says:
#1 and #25 Since when is Israel a democracy? As far as the citizens of Israel know, Israel is NOT a democracy and NEVER WAS. Perhaps it is supposed to be one but it has never been proven to be so. After several attempts for the Eida to get a permit this is the first time they got it. The other weeks the Eida demonstrated without a permit because they knew these Zionists - when it comes to chareidi Jews they completely forget that they are supposed to be a democracy.
30
Jul 08, 2009 at 07:41 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Yes, it is a tragedy that the State of Israel was formed as a democracy. Unfortunately, though that may be the Will of the Majority, that is not Torah Law. For many, many years the Jews have not been self governing. Unfortunately, when they got a chance, they "choose" the gentile method, of letting the lowest element, the majority, rule over, and dominate the strongest, the majority.
In the case of Israel, it started off as the majority, who were atheist/agnostic/non-practicing Jews, making a government, to govern and rule their old-fashioned, g-d believing, Torah Observant,Jews.,
,
Not only does this mean oppression of the Chareidi, but as practiced, it is a government policy to obliterate, marginalize and belittle the Chareidi to assure his opinions are not really even considered. They carefully, VERY carefully manipulate issues to continuously poke just enough fun at their observant minority, to keep people marginalizing them. Everey time a religious group is for something, the rest of the country is naturally against it. It has become a natural antagonism. Very tragic, but real.
But all this is only part of the story. As Jews, we are OBLIGATED BY GOD, not obligated by political correctness, not obligated by majority rule, not obligated by any modern governmental structure. We have no choice other than to Obey the Laws of the Torah which came from God, not any Kennesset or other man-made body.
Non-observant man has turned the word THEOCRACY into a dirty word. But THEOCRACY IS THE JEWISH WAY...... NOT DEMOCRACY.
THEOCRACY maybe not be politically correct, but is the ONLY way we could be, al pi Torah.
Sure, until Moshiach comes it is not clear if we are allowed to have ANY government, and many do hold that it needs to be a gentile rule until Moshiach comes. I will not even deal with this issue in this post. It is more likely the correct opinion, but not the purpose of this post. The purpose is: But, if and when we do rule, IT MUST BE A THEOCRACY.
Can you imagine having a democracy in the midbar? What would have happened to Moshe when he came down with the Luchos?
Those who are not observant, and many Liberal observant Jews, or those slaves to PC ideas are horrified that Jews would have a Theocracy. But, that IS the Torah way, whether you like it or not.
”
"IT MUST BE A THEOCRACY".
Mine? Your's? Reb Moshe's? Reb Aharon's? The Brisker Rov's? The Satmar Ruv's? The Lubavitcher Rebbe's? The Religeous Zionists'? Maybe Meir Kahane's? the Aronim or Zalmonim? Agudah's, Ger's, Shas', Degel?
Or would prefer to let all the frum groups keep fighting it out to see which 'emes' theology wins? Oh, wait, there already are countries in which that is done.....
No matter what theocracy you install there will always be someone frummer nipping at your heels. The theocracy that YOU install today will allow the type of shaitel YOUR wife wears. The one that tosses out YOUR theocracy will only allow the one THEIR wives wear. If it happens to be a scarf over a horse-hair edge covering a shaved head, well, you'll just have to learn to find that attractive. Not to worry though. You'll be so busy hiding the seforim they don't like from the book-burning masses you won't have time to look at your wife. If you are still allowed to have one.
Until we hear from The Source which theocracy He wants democracy will just have to be memaleh makom.
31
Jul 08, 2009 at 08:31 AM Jew Says:
“ a "peaceful" event organized by the Eida Charedis, an oxymoron if I've ever heard one ”
Yes, it’s usually peaceful! As long the anti chareidy police are staying away from them it’s very peaceful. Indeed, the chareidim are more peaceful, normal and kind people. Can I go collect money for Almones and Yesoimim anywhere else?
32
Jul 08, 2009 at 08:15 AM Anonymous Says:
“ that's moitey shem rah. the BD"Z of the Eidah Charedis are talmidei chachomim and tzadikim gemurim, who are you? ”
the erav rav were tzadikim too
33
Jul 08, 2009 at 08:02 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Yes, it is a tragedy that the State of Israel was formed as a democracy. Unfortunately, though that may be the Will of the Majority, that is not Torah Law. For many, many years the Jews have not been self governing. Unfortunately, when they got a chance, they "choose" the gentile method, of letting the lowest element, the majority, rule over, and dominate the strongest, the majority.
In the case of Israel, it started off as the majority, who were atheist/agnostic/non-practicing Jews, making a government, to govern and rule their old-fashioned, g-d believing, Torah Observant,Jews.,
,
Not only does this mean oppression of the Chareidi, but as practiced, it is a government policy to obliterate, marginalize and belittle the Chareidi to assure his opinions are not really even considered. They carefully, VERY carefully manipulate issues to continuously poke just enough fun at their observant minority, to keep people marginalizing them. Everey time a religious group is for something, the rest of the country is naturally against it. It has become a natural antagonism. Very tragic, but real.
But all this is only part of the story. As Jews, we are OBLIGATED BY GOD, not obligated by political correctness, not obligated by majority rule, not obligated by any modern governmental structure. We have no choice other than to Obey the Laws of the Torah which came from God, not any Kennesset or other man-made body.
Non-observant man has turned the word THEOCRACY into a dirty word. But THEOCRACY IS THE JEWISH WAY...... NOT DEMOCRACY.
THEOCRACY maybe not be politically correct, but is the ONLY way we could be, al pi Torah.
Sure, until Moshiach comes it is not clear if we are allowed to have ANY government, and many do hold that it needs to be a gentile rule until Moshiach comes. I will not even deal with this issue in this post. It is more likely the correct opinion, but not the purpose of this post. The purpose is: But, if and when we do rule, IT MUST BE A THEOCRACY.
Can you imagine having a democracy in the midbar? What would have happened to Moshe when he came down with the Luchos?
Those who are not observant, and many Liberal observant Jews, or those slaves to PC ideas are horrified that Jews would have a Theocracy. But, that IS the Torah way, whether you like it or not.
”
That is not the "torah-way" and your expressing such bizarre comments and disrepect for the leadership of the medinah and klal yisroel who are shomrei torah and mitzvot only serves to exacerbate the sinas chinam which in turn is the principal reason why moishiach has not come 'bimharah b'yamenu".
34
Jul 08, 2009 at 11:13 AM RJ Says:
“ Yes, it’s usually peaceful! As long the anti chareidy police are staying away from them it’s very peaceful. Indeed, the chareidim are more peaceful, normal and kind people. Can I go collect money for Almones and Yesoimim anywhere else? ”
So let me get this straight...the protestors have only peaceful intentions, until the "anti charedi police" provoke them, and wait, hmmmm, I just so happen to be carrying dirty diapers in my pocket (because thats what I always carry with me to "peaceful" demonstrations), whoa, let me throw them at the police!!!
Its one thing to be dishonest, its another when you believe your own lies
35
Jul 08, 2009 at 11:13 AM RJ Says:
“ Yes, it’s usually peaceful! As long the anti chareidy police are staying away from them it’s very peaceful. Indeed, the chareidim are more peaceful, normal and kind people. Can I go collect money for Almones and Yesoimim anywhere else? ”
So let me get this straight...the protestors have only peaceful intentions, until the "anti charedi police" provoke them, and wait, hmmmm, I just so happen to be carrying dirty diapers in my pocket (because thats what I always carry with me to "peaceful" demonstrations), whoa, let me throw them at the police!!!
Its one thing to be dishonest, its another when you believe your own lies
36
Jul 08, 2009 at 10:52 AM zvi Says:
reply to #28
I'm glad you know who probably was right in the question of whether or not we can have a medinah.
37
Jul 08, 2009 at 04:19 PM Anonymous Says:
“ So let me get this straight...the protestors have only peaceful intentions, until the "anti charedi police" provoke them, and wait, hmmmm, I just so happen to be carrying dirty diapers in my pocket (because thats what I always carry with me to "peaceful" demonstrations), whoa, let me throw them at the police!!!
Its one thing to be dishonest, its another when you believe your own lies ”
“ So let me get this straight...the protestors have only peaceful intentions, until the "anti charedi police" provoke them, and wait, hmmmm, I just so happen to be carrying dirty diapers in my pocket (because thats what I always carry with me to "peaceful" demonstrations), whoa, let me throw them at the police!!!
Its one thing to be dishonest, its another when you believe your own lies ”
This reminds me of the story of the Arab who comes home after a long day at work and he wants to sleep. But the kids are noisy and don't let him sleep. So he makes up a story. He tells them that figs are for sale in the shuk for one shekel a pound of figs. The children get so excited at this lie they run from the house to the shuk to buy the figs for one shekel a pound. With the house quiet at last, the Arab lies down to sleep. But he finds he can't sleep. Why not? Because they are selling figs one pound for a shekel down at the shuk! So he jumps up from his bed and runs to the shuk to buy. You see, rabbosai, he believes his own lies. This is the mida of Yishmoel. Do we want to be like Yishmoel? Rabbosai, we have to stop deluding ourselves. Emes is the way of Torah.
38
Jul 12, 2009 at 04:30 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Before 1948 there was not a jewish state out there officialy promoting chilul shabbos. There was never a chilul hashem like that before the zionist state came to reality. That's why no one ever promoted these kind of protests. Not to say that the ehrliche yidden promote these violences taking place, which I agree is a big chilul hashem. ”
There was no Jewish state, but there certainly were the same chilulei shabbos / hashem. How do you think Neturei Karta got started, and where they got their name?
39
Jul 12, 2009 at 04:28 PM Milhouse Says:
“ You are fooling yourself if you believe that the violence was started by the police. Stop drinking the koolaid. These rotestors that are supposedly "protecting" the sacntity of shabbos are desecrating both shabbos and the name of G-d. Any violent protestor or out of control rioter, including those spitting and throwing rocks, should be thrown into prison. This is not the best way to get the message across. ”
What makes you think the violence is not started by the police? They have a 60-year history of violence and brutality.
40
Jul 12, 2009 at 04:27 PM Milhouse Says:
“ I really don’t care who makes the decision, for thousands of years nobody threw rocks and nappies, at anybody, I beg of you please show me even one source before 1948 and all way back to the destruction of the Temple, that will proof to me that a Gadal Yisroel threw or encourage of throwing rocks at Chillul Shabbos, please no stories real citations are welcome. ”
What happened when the cohen spilled the water on his feet?
41
Jul 12, 2009 at 05:10 PM Milhouse Says:
“ So let me get this straight...the protestors have only peaceful intentions, until the "anti charedi police" provoke them, and wait, hmmmm, I just so happen to be carrying dirty diapers in my pocket (because thats what I always carry with me to "peaceful" demonstrations), whoa, let me throw them at the police!!!
Its one thing to be dishonest, its another when you believe your own lies ”
“ So let me get this straight...the protestors have only peaceful intentions, until the "anti charedi police" provoke them, and wait, hmmmm, I just so happen to be carrying dirty diapers in my pocket (because thats what I always carry with me to "peaceful" demonstrations), whoa, let me throw them at the police!!!
Its one thing to be dishonest, its another when you believe your own lies ”
Has anyone ever seen these alleged dirty diapers?
42
Jul 12, 2009 at 05:09 PM Milhouse Says:
“ the erav rav were tzadikim too ”
Huh? What on earth are you talking about? Who ever claimed the erev rav were tzadikim?
43
Jul 12, 2009 at 05:08 PM Milhouse Says:
“ "IT MUST BE A THEOCRACY".
Mine? Your's? Reb Moshe's? Reb Aharon's? The Brisker Rov's? The Satmar Ruv's? The Lubavitcher Rebbe's? The Religeous Zionists'? Maybe Meir Kahane's? the Aronim or Zalmonim? Agudah's, Ger's, Shas', Degel?
Or would prefer to let all the frum groups keep fighting it out to see which 'emes' theology wins? Oh, wait, there already are countries in which that is done.....
No matter what theocracy you install there will always be someone frummer nipping at your heels. The theocracy that YOU install today will allow the type of shaitel YOUR wife wears. The one that tosses out YOUR theocracy will only allow the one THEIR wives wear. If it happens to be a scarf over a horse-hair edge covering a shaved head, well, you'll just have to learn to find that attractive. Not to worry though. You'll be so busy hiding the seforim they don't like from the book-burning masses you won't have time to look at your wife. If you are still allowed to have one.
Until we hear from The Source which theocracy He wants democracy will just have to be memaleh makom. ”
What difference does it make whose theocracy? None of the people you mention condone chilul shabbos. Shabbos isn't some chassidisher chumra, it's basic halacha that EVERYBODY agrees on. Even the drivers don't pretend that they're just another opinion within Judaism, another of the shiv'im ponim; they know they're behaving like goyim, they just don't care. So on THIS issue there can be no question that the law ought to forbid it, and it's sad that it doesn't