“ Everyone on VIN seems very pro Rubashkin. What am I mising here? The man has made a huge chilul hashem and my his own admission is guilty (why else would he care about which trial comes first?) The man broke the law in a severe severe way and has brought shame to orthodox jews everywhere. I am not trying to start a fight, but I am truly trying to understand the rationale for helping him out and saving him and his family? ”

“ Everyone on VIN seems very pro Rubashkin. What am I mising here? The man has made a huge chilul hashem and my his own admission is guilty (why else would he care about which trial comes first?) The man broke the law in a severe severe way and has brought shame to orthodox jews everywhere. I am not trying to start a fight, but I am truly trying to understand the rationale for helping him out and saving him and his family? ”

“ Everyone on VIN seems very pro Rubashkin. What am I mising here? The man has made a huge chilul hashem and my his own admission is guilty (why else would he care about which trial comes first?) The man broke the law in a severe severe way and has brought shame to orthodox jews everywhere. I am not trying to start a fight, but I am truly trying to understand the rationale for helping him out and saving him and his family? ”

“ He's a Father to young children and Husband and he's Jewish. If he'd be your brother you'd understand, he's ours.

The Jewish Orthodox community is one big extended family and he didn't hurt anybody, we really want him to get off the hook. Ask any African American, they understand brotherhood. It's a shame that in the MO community this does not exist and they think country before family. ”

“ Everyone on VIN seems very pro Rubashkin. What am I mising here? The man has made a huge chilul hashem and my his own admission is guilty (why else would he care about which trial comes first?) The man broke the law in a severe severe way and has brought shame to orthodox jews everywhere. I am not trying to start a fight, but I am truly trying to understand the rationale for helping him out and saving him and his family? ”

“ The Modern Orthodox cult is nothing but a huge rebellion against Halacha and Hashem.

It's only about snuggling up to the Gentiles, looking like them, emulating their ways, downplaying centuries of Halacha and Yiddishe communal life, entering government and business to rise to seats of power, and enjoying the pleasures of "the Romans," (i.e. huge, ornate homes, travel to exotic places, eating out continually, positions of authority, driving expensive automobiles, etc.), all the while distancing themselves from Bnai Yisroel who behave or look "too" Jewish (except their Rav who nearly always looks and behaves much frummer than they do).

They're Hellenists with fancy (and small) yarmulkes, one generation away from Goyishkeit. (And what hell they put their kids through with this M.O. charade of theirs!). Oh, how they love the Goyim! ”

“ The Modern Orthodox cult is nothing but a huge rebellion against Halacha and Hashem.

It's only about snuggling up to the Gentiles, looking like them, emulating their ways, downplaying centuries of Halacha and Yiddishe communal life, entering government and business to rise to seats of power, and enjoying the pleasures of "the Romans," (i.e. huge, ornate homes, travel to exotic places, eating out continually, positions of authority, driving expensive automobiles, etc.), all the while distancing themselves from Bnai Yisroel who behave or look "too" Jewish (except their Rav who nearly always looks and behaves much frummer than they do).

They're Hellenists with fancy (and small) yarmulkes, one generation away from Goyishkeit. (And what hell they put their kids through with this M.O. charade of theirs!). Oh, how they love the Goyim! ”

“ Everyone on VIN seems very pro Rubashkin. What am I mising here? The man has made a huge chilul hashem and my his own admission is guilty (why else would he care about which trial comes first?) The man broke the law in a severe severe way and has brought shame to orthodox jews everywhere. I am not trying to start a fight, but I am truly trying to understand the rationale for helping him out and saving him and his family? ”

“ Everyone on VIN seems very pro Rubashkin. What am I mising here? The man has made a huge chilul hashem and my his own admission is guilty (why else would he care about which trial comes first?) The man broke the law in a severe severe way and has brought shame to orthodox jews everywhere. I am not trying to start a fight, but I am truly trying to understand the rationale for helping him out and saving him and his family? ”

“ If all you people are right about a fellow Jew, then why did you not come out for Madoff before he was forced to plaed guilty? Why was Finkel from Monsey declared guilty before there was a trial at all? Just a bunch of accussers!!

Methinks that because he is Lubavitch, your thinking is really skewered to the lest. You must support your own while throwing others to the wind. Too bad you do not do that for other Jews.

I am not anti-Lubavitch, cholila. I am just against Yidden who think for themselves first and everyone else second. This is a Hungarian mentality that transcended to the Jews there (my hechsher is better than your hechsher, my rov is better than your rov).

When you show ahavas yisroel to all, not just to your 'kind', that is when Moshiach will come. ”

“ One difference may be that the Rubashkins are known as major baalei chessed, whereas Madoff was not. I'm not familiar with the Finkel case.

Your larger point, though, is correct - a Jew is a Jew, and as many other posters have said, it should hurt us equally anytime any of our brothers or sisters is in legal trouble, and we should see what we can do to help them. ”

“ Who can say they never highered an illegal ailian - ie maid, gardener, handyman nany or painter. Who can say they never paid or worked off the books or didn't disclose all taxes. Guess what you broke the law. Should you go to jail for the rest of youe life?! No of course not. If yes we should all be in jail.

Rubashkins faught the unions which are distroying our ecconomy ie $75 per hour to screw in a nut in an car, then take the taxpayeer's money to keep it going. That's the real criminals. These are the guys who snitched to the government and pay them off all the time.

Rubashkins supported a whole city and more and got kosher food at a lower price to unheard of arias. Not only did they give charity but allowed unemployed people to hold their dignity with real jobs.

This is a Jew hunt. Who's next?

I hate to borrow a goyisher frais but "Let the one that didn't sin cast the first stone." ”

“ I am, and will defend Rubashkins, right to be treaded like any other company who uses illegal labor, and there should not be selective prosecution and charging them with every crime written on the books in the last 200 years. But your rant on the union is pure bunk, you are just espousing far rightwing nutty views, the fact is without unions who made sure that we only have a forty hour work week, Jews would have to work on Shabbath, as it was common up to the formation of unions, child labor was also common, and I could go on for another few pages with issues after issues that the formation union’s were a direct benefit to the Jewish population in particular the ultra religious who suffered discrimination. So stop with your mixing up Kasha and borched, you are not helping Rubashkins in the none-religious or "lefty" community.

As to the charge that the union worker is making “$75 per hour to screw in a nut in an car” that by itself a right wing "druggy Rush Limbaugh", nutty lies and that argument should be dissected in an other venue, but not Rubashkins.
”

“ o.k. for those who say that rubashkin is guilty so he should sit. Lets put it in prospective. Say you drove two miles over the speed limit and a cop stopped you for speeding and you were put in jail for 3 months. Did you do something wrong? yes. but is the accusation and punishment way out of proportion? big time. Same thing here. ”

“ Just one point, you wrong, Madoff was known as major baalei chessed but not in the orthodox community, but the cases are dissimilar, Madoff plead guilty inasmuch in Rubashkins case there is still a burden of proof on the state, furthermore, poster # 15 comparison to Madoff is not even close, and I know I don’t need to spell it out, any decent and open minded person knows the huge differences. As to the Finkel case I am not familiar with it therefore I would reframe to comment on it. ”

“ Reb M.S. Rubashkin is a very big Ba'al Chesed, not only to Yidden, but also to Goyim (note Pirkie Avos, Perek 3, Mishna 10), and yes he does deserve the benefit of the doubt. I think that the government has come down on him harder, obviously with the unions pushing for that, they hate Rubashkin. ”

“ Finkel was the Baal Chesed from Monsey that sold the treif meat. Whoops - he never went to court - he is innocent until proved guilty. Right? I mean if it is good enough for one frum yid, it should be OK for another frum Yid - right? ”

“ I still sem to be missing something that Number 2 wrote about. All the other companies that got caught on immigration paid the fine and walked away. They cooperated with the government in the investigation. Today, the Gov't announced that Krispy Kreme paid a $40,000 fine and the case is closed.

From the begining, Rubashkn said that they were innocent. Ice found blank IDs in the office. We are not stupid, As long as rubashkn does not talk, but has expensive lawyers call the shots, we think that Rubashkin is hiding something. When Rubashkins lawyers throw the smoke and mirrors of antisemitism, instead of any facts around, then something is wrong. As long as PR firms are hired instead of paying shochtim and mashgichim, something is wrong. As long as 25 Rabbis were flown out to the plant for a 3 hour tour, and NONE of them were experts in Kashrus, human relations, immigration laws, plant design and architecture, USDA regulations or anything that has to do with a meat plant, then something is wrong.

So, what am I mising? What would make me think that Rubashkin is as pure as a white lamb, while no one else in the world does not get a break from his supporters? ”

“ I am sorry I did reply on “three” occasions and explained to you in detail and put up a link to my information but the moderator did not post it, why I don’t know, I went back and looked at it, but I cannot find what was objectionable there might be a word here or there both if I omitted them, my point would have been lost, therefore I did not change a thing. ”

“ I understand that you help a fellow Jew in trouble, by why him? Because he gave a lot of tzedaka? Was the source a 'legal' one or did he do it on other peoples money? Was all his money 'kosher'?

I would expect (and demand) that any person that wants us to think that he is frum, that his products are of the highest kashrus standards, that he actually be a mench in all of his dealings, not only to Hashem and to other frum people. We expect (and demand) his business dealings all be upright, and that he act like a mench in all occasions. I am not talking about this 'hechsher tzedek' crap. ”

“ I will try again this is not my original answer I don’t have a saved copy but I hope the moderator will post this one.

First you need to understand were I come I am modern orthodox, I am not in Rubashkn’s circle, and never bought his meat, nor never benefited from his tzedaka, I have a very liberal bend, I strongly believe that rightwing spectrum was for the last few hundred years fighting any freedoms the Jewish population were seeking. And if not for the liberal spectrum Jews would still be treaded as second class citizens. As for Rubashkn’s predicament, I strongly believe based on logical conclusions, that the prosecutor over reached and did not use proper prosecutorial discretion, which is one of the must important trades a prosecutor must exemplify. These are my question, why was Rubashkn charged with numerous felony charges while other companies were only given a slap on the hand?
Here is the link to NPR news see quotation. 7/9/2009

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6626823

“It is exceptionally rare for those who employ illegal immigrants to face any kind of criminal prosecution, let alone jail time. Earlier this week, for example, immigration raids on six meat-packing plants netted almost 1,300 suspected illegal workers. But no charges were leveled against the company that runs the plants: Swift.”

Again and again every news story I saw on Google had basically the same conclusion, either a fine or one or two charges with suspended sentences. I must ask myself why? What is Rubashkn different from all these other companies? Just compare Rubashkn with Swift (another meat packing facility), the company in the NPR article, they employed 1300 suspected illegal workers and had been warned by immigration Department twice before. The only difference I could see, Rubashkn is Chasidic, therefore, I must conclude that Anti-Semitisms is or might be at work, therefore I must speak up for a fellow Jew, I am not saying he is guilty or not, I am only saying treat his as any other case.

As for you I am perplex, why, are you so intently that he must serve hundreds of years in jail what will that benefit you, or any Jew I just don’t see it.
Thank you




”

“ Can anyone tell me of one other case where the ceo was charged criminally for immigration issues ? All other raids in the past year were setteled by fines. Don't know why they are trying this case criminally but its sure not because the "LOVE" him ”

“ Let us look at what we know is the truth.

There was a good few months between the raid and the arrests.. Other people in the office have pleaded guilty. Some key people have run away. The people that have run away have been indicted. Information from the raid has included such tidbits as "stacks of blank IDs have been found in the office. Rubashkin gave thousands of dollars to a worker to secure new ids. Workers IDs were disqualified so the workers got new ID.

Now we run into guesses.
There seems to be a conspiracy in upper management to get illegal aliens to work in the plant. This was not tens of workers, but hundreds. Rubashkin never tried to make a deal - we know this because his PR and lawyers always said that he was innocent. ICE will not talk to people who say that they are innocent.

I do not see anti-semitism. I see gross stupidity on the part of Rubashkin's lawyers. L'havdil, do you know why Michael Jackson died? Because anyone who said anything to contradict him was fired. Somethought that Jackson had too many drugs? If he said anything, he was fired. Same thing here. Rubashkin was surrounded with yes men that could not convey to him what reality was. . ”

“ Just a few notes and observations and assumptions, Swift probably had a ID paper workshop, you don’t have 1,284 illegal’s working for you by accident, if you have a few, it might be slip-up, but not 1,284, therefore, I am inclined to believe that, the ICE found the work shop and had proof beyond reasonable doubt. And as to your claim, that ICE will not deal with people who claim the are innocent, one: claiming ones innocents noting is new, almost every defendant his or her lawyer will claim that they are totally innocent, it is as American as apple pie. Just to be more precise I Goggled to check what the reaction of Swift was after the raid in 06 well the first item was a Fox news report dated Dec. 2, 2006, guess what, see below the excerpt from the report, see link

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,236044,00.html


“Swift has never condoned the employment of unauthorized workers, nor have we ever knowingly hired such individuals," said Swift & Company CEO Sam Rovit. "Swift has played by the rules and relied in good faith on a program explicitly held out by the president of the United States as an effective tool to help employers comply with applicable immigration laws."

As you could see that the only arguments you have that the difference between Rubashkin and Swift was that Rubashkin hired a PR firm to help them in management crisis and did not right away admit to his crimes, well it took ICE three years to secure a guilty plea from Swift.

As a MO Jew I tried to explain my view, why every Jew should speak out in support of Rubashkin, however you still failed to explain yourself in cohesive manner why you as a Jew are so oblivious to an other Jews plight when he did not do anything worst the Swift, and Swift was sold out for 1.5 billion dollars, all cash deal.
”

“ "Swift probably had" ' I am inclined to believe" Don't guess. His freedom for the next 20 years it at stake and you are throwing out the anti-semisims card like candy. That will not help his defense at all - it will only make your ego feel better.

What do we know for a fact? What do we believe in?
We know that he is a baal chesed - that will not help him a bit here.

We know that he locked out OSHA inspectors - and made them get a court order before coming into the plant. Osha tells ICE. Maybe union tells ICE. Regardless, ICE knows that Rubashkin is a hard customer. Was Swift that hard? Did Swift cooperate with all Federal agencies?

I am also a Jew. I was embarressed that he pulled the PETA shtick AFTER HE PROMISED that he would stop. Then they caught his doing it AGAIN in the Nebraska plant. What gives? Isn't his word enough??

Osha - he got multiple violations of equipmet on certain stuff. Look up the records. Machine was broken, he said he fixed it and 3 months later, it was still broken. Laws are made to protect workers. If he does not obey the law, and someone gets hurt or injured - what will you say? What did you say when he had product recalls because of did not list ingredients, or did not cook the food long enough top kill the backteria.

I will not stand behind him. I am not a sheep on the way to slaughter.


”

“ Thanks for your response,
No I am not throwing away the Anti-Semitic complained, but I never argued to use it in his defense in court, without doubt it would be a losing proposition, that point was used by me only to give the reader an understanding why I am supporting Rubashkin, when nearly all people in my circle, are adamantly against them. Before I make any decision, the first thing I analyze is the case handled in the same manner as any other similar case, if by using objective analysis, I come away with an affirmative no, then there is noting more to look at. If yes then I would like to see the case have a similar disposition as any other case in a similar situation. I will not entertain any argument that if a defendant did any good deed, a baal chesed, they may have done over the years, therefore, he is not guilty. The only time it should be used, is, after a trail to show mitigation, so the Judge could sentence him at the lower end of the Federal sentencing guidelines. I am not familiar with the PETA shtick, but in my humble judgment wherever he did is irrelevant, OSHA violations is nearly always adjudicated with a fine, except if death is involved them they might be indicted as involuntary manslaughter, but not hundreds of felony counts, which each count could send them away for ten years. That is egregious; I just cannot send by and see a fellow Jew being traded like this without speaking up. As to your argument “I am not a sheep on the way to slaughter” well if you back you will see I never said he should be let go without any penalty, no but it should be disposed as any other case.
Now lets look at you for a second, over the last few post I begged of you to explain to us, why should Rubashkin face much server punishment, understanding if he is found guilty on only ten of the hundreds charges he faces 100 years in Jail, the sentencing guidelines would require the Judge to give him at least 45 years, that means he will have to serve 85% in prison, before coming out on parole. As a Jew, this is not something you should take lightly. But up to now you failed to give us a coherent logical argument why Rubashkin should be in jeopardy to go away for life, by now I am only interest in your logical argument why, you want this outcome.
”

“ I am, and will defend Rubashkins, right to be treaded like any other company who uses illegal labor, and there should not be selective prosecution and charging them with every crime written on the books in the last 200 years. But your rant on the union is pure bunk, you are just espousing far rightwing nutty views, the fact is without unions who made sure that we only have a forty hour work week, Jews would have to work on Shabbath, as it was common up to the formation of unions, child labor was also common, and I could go on for another few pages with issues after issues that the formation union’s were a direct benefit to the Jewish population in particular the ultra religious who suffered discrimination. So stop with your mixing up Kasha and borched, you are not helping Rubashkins in the none-religious or "lefty" community.

As to the charge that the union worker is making “$75 per hour to screw in a nut in an car” that by itself a right wing "druggy Rush Limbaugh", nutty lies and that argument should be dissected in an other venue, but not Rubashkins.
”

“ Just one point, you wrong, Madoff was known as major baalei chessed but not in the orthodox community, but the cases are dissimilar, Madoff plead guilty inasmuch in Rubashkins case there is still a burden of proof on the state, furthermore, poster # 15 comparison to Madoff is not even close, and I know I don’t need to spell it out, any decent and open minded person knows the huge differences. As to the Finkel case I am not familiar with it therefore I would reframe to comment on it. ”

“ I will try again this is not my original answer I don’t have a saved copy but I hope the moderator will post this one.

First you need to understand were I come I am modern orthodox, I am not in Rubashkn’s circle, and never bought his meat, nor never benefited from his tzedaka, I have a very liberal bend, I strongly believe that rightwing spectrum was for the last few hundred years fighting any freedoms the Jewish population were seeking. And if not for the liberal spectrum Jews would still be treaded as second class citizens. As for Rubashkn’s predicament, I strongly believe based on logical conclusions, that the prosecutor over reached and did not use proper prosecutorial discretion, which is one of the must important trades a prosecutor must exemplify. These are my question, why was Rubashkn charged with numerous felony charges while other companies were only given a slap on the hand?
Here is the link to NPR news see quotation. 7/9/2009

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6626823

“It is exceptionally rare for those who employ illegal immigrants to face any kind of criminal prosecution, let alone jail time. Earlier this week, for example, immigration raids on six meat-packing plants netted almost 1,300 suspected illegal workers. But no charges were leveled against the company that runs the plants: Swift.”

Again and again every news story I saw on Google had basically the same conclusion, either a fine or one or two charges with suspended sentences. I must ask myself why? What is Rubashkn different from all these other companies? Just compare Rubashkn with Swift (another meat packing facility), the company in the NPR article, they employed 1300 suspected illegal workers and had been warned by immigration Department twice before. The only difference I could see, Rubashkn is Chasidic, therefore, I must conclude that Anti-Semitisms is or might be at work, therefore I must speak up for a fellow Jew, I am not saying he is guilty or not, I am only saying treat his as any other case.

As for you I am perplex, why, are you so intently that he must serve hundreds of years in jail what will that benefit you, or any Jew I just don’t see it.
Thank you




”

“ Madoff was known for chessed? What are you talking about? Name ONE person he personally helped. Name one instance where he saw someone who needed something, and lowered himself to help him. Name one person who showed up at the doorstep of his mansion, needing somewhere to sleep, and was taken care of. Name a hungry person whom Ruth fed, or someone to whom they gave clothes. Or even a person whom they gave a lift in their limo. It seems you have no idea what chessed means. Maybe nobody has, until they've seen the Rubashkins in action. ”

“ All lies. From their very beginning the unions have been a bane on the free world, and we do not benefit in any way from them. Labour becomes more productive because of capital investment, and as it becomes more productive it also becomes more expensive. That is where wage increases came from, that is where better hours and conditions come from, and none of it is attributable to unions. All unions have ever done is use violence and threats to extort money for their own members at the expense of those no better off who don't resort to such tactics. ”

“ Everyone on VIN seems very pro Rubashkin. What am I mising here? The man has made a huge chilul hashem and my his own admission is guilty (why else would he care about which trial comes first?) The man broke the law in a severe severe way and has brought shame to orthodox jews everywhere. I am not trying to start a fight, but I am truly trying to understand the rationale for helping him out and saving him and his family? ”

“ There are a hard core group of his supporters (led by Millhouse and Moishe who may be the same person) who focus on the familiy's reputation in Brooklyn and don't adddress the merits of the allegations in Iowa. I personally have no idea of whether the allegations are true or not but don't believe the prosecution is driven entirely by anti-semitism. In any event, I don' understand why the same arguments wouldn't be made if the immigration charges came first and he testified on his onw behalf in that trial. Either way, lets not keep dragging this out week after week and giving the real antisemites new material to attack with. ”

“ Everyone on VIN seems very pro Rubashkin. What am I mising here? The man has made a huge chilul hashem and my his own admission is guilty (why else would he care about which trial comes first?) The man broke the law in a severe severe way and has brought shame to orthodox jews everywhere. I am not trying to start a fight, but I am truly trying to understand the rationale for helping him out and saving him and his family? ”

“ Although I currently dislike unions, your comments and attutude were the reasons why unions came into place, originally. The owners bullied the workers and had no care what happened to then if they became sick or injured or died on the job, as was the case in the 1900-1920 era. Read Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle" for the typical conditions that existed there.
The conditions mentioned in the book and the tactics used by management are not dissimilar from what we have seen in Postville. ”

“ He was a major contributer to UJA-Federation. You have a problem with that? ”

“ First, let me preface this by saying that no one wants to see him go to jail. It would not serve any useful purpose. His brother is already in jail on an unrelated charge of storing dangerous material without permits and his nephew is supposed to go to jail for lying to a grand jury on who owns the building where the chemicals were stored.

Is that besides the point or is that the point? Laws were made for our protection. Immigration laws were made to let Americans get jobs and to discourage foreigners from coming here illegally and draining our economy. He is being charged with violating imigration laws over 350 times. This is not your shiksa cleaning your house or your neighbor shoveling your walk. This was an intent to defraud both the federal government and the state and local governments by overloading the school ssystems, welfare systems, shutting them in slum conditions and bullying them at work. What punishment would you deem necessary?

The rest of the charges are for defrauding banks. If found guilty, what punishment would you want for someone that was not Jewish?

He is supposed to be an example for us. What sort of example does he set? That it is OK to ignore laws as long as you are Chassidic?

I enjoy these discussions. At least it is not bname calling like ohers I have seen. ”

“ Although I currently dislike unions, your comments and attutude were the reasons why unions came into place, originally. The owners bullied the workers and had no care what happened to then if they became sick or injured or died on the job, as was the case in the 1900-1920 era. Read Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle" for the typical conditions that existed there.
The conditions mentioned in the book and the tactics used by management are not dissimilar from what we have seen in Postville. ”

“ First, let me preface this by saying that no one wants to see him go to jail. It would not serve any useful purpose. His brother is already in jail on an unrelated charge of storing dangerous material without permits and his nephew is supposed to go to jail for lying to a grand jury on who owns the building where the chemicals were stored.

Is that besides the point or is that the point? Laws were made for our protection. Immigration laws were made to let Americans get jobs and to discourage foreigners from coming here illegally and draining our economy. He is being charged with violating imigration laws over 350 times. This is not your shiksa cleaning your house or your neighbor shoveling your walk. This was an intent to defraud both the federal government and the state and local governments by overloading the school ssystems, welfare systems, shutting them in slum conditions and bullying them at work. What punishment would you deem necessary?

The rest of the charges are for defrauding banks. If found guilty, what punishment would you want for someone that was not Jewish?

He is supposed to be an example for us. What sort of example does he set? That it is OK to ignore laws as long as you are Chassidic?

I enjoy these discussions. At least it is not bname calling like ohers I have seen. ”

“ Thank you, for replying to Millhouse, personally I don’t see the benefit to reply to his “drive by” style, I did not mind to continue this discussion with you, I know I could learn a thing or two from the down to earth discussions and in a way I was pleased to see that the page was of the front news so I could continue in a respectful manor, but here comes Millhouse and throwing his bomb with his rightwing nutty views which I am not in the mood to entertain.

As to you stating that you would like to see the disposition of the case not to end up with jail time for Rubashkin, then we made strides in our own respective positions and we are not far apart. I always said that laws are there to protect the public and in particular OSHA, as I said he should pay his fine if they still have money which I am not sure and I hope and pray his lawyer finds a way to plead him out on one or two counts, then whatever the guidelines require, otherwise, I just don’t see how he can win the case, with all theses charges tipping heavily in favor of the prosecution.
On another point Millhouse contention that Swift, did cooperated with ICE if you go back to our previous discussions and links you will see that Swift fought the ICE for numerous years and after the 1.5B all cash sale in July 2007, they decided to plead out the case not before.
”

“ You idiot, my first comment is #39, so how could #38 be a reply to me?

What exactly is "a respectful manor"? I've never heard of a manor having respect.

"On another point Millhouse contention that Swift, did cooperated with ICE". I'm not sure what language this is written in, but assuming it means what it sounds like, when did I ever contend anything of the sort? Not only can't you spell or write English, you also can't read it, so you just make stuff up. Don't attribute to me statements I never made. ”

“ Thank you, for replying to Millhouse, personally I don’t see the benefit to reply to his “drive by” style, I did not mind to continue this discussion with you, I know I could learn a thing or two from the down to earth discussions and in a way I was pleased to see that the page was of the front news so I could continue in a respectful manor, but here comes Millhouse and throwing his bomb with his rightwing nutty views which I am not in the mood to entertain.

As to you stating that you would like to see the disposition of the case not to end up with jail time for Rubashkin, then we made strides in our own respective positions and we are not far apart. I always said that laws are there to protect the public and in particular OSHA, as I said he should pay his fine if they still have money which I am not sure and I hope and pray his lawyer finds a way to plead him out on one or two counts, then whatever the guidelines require, otherwise, I just don’t see how he can win the case, with all theses charges tipping heavily in favor of the prosecution.
On another point Millhouse contention that Swift, did cooperated with ICE if you go back to our previous discussions and links you will see that Swift fought the ICE for numerous years and after the 1.5B all cash sale in July 2007, they decided to plead out the case not before.
”

“ A point that we can debate on is how to tell people that they did wrong. Did MAdoff do wrong? Everyone says so. Did Rubashkin do wrong? That is the subject of the debate.
I believe in dina d'malchusa. Milhouse already called me a "dina d'malchusa Jewboy". However, there are somethings that I do not agree with, for example. The requirement for a person to carry ID on him all the time. (What do you do for Shabbat?) Blatant discrimination when it came to Sunday Blue Laws. Alternate side of the street parking on Yom Tov in New York. All examples of how we have to work with the system instead of ignoring it.

Then comes a company that blatantly ignores certain laws. How do we let them know that their behavior is not accepetable? What do we tell the current Homowack owners when we see them spilling diesel fuel (also knows as home heating oil) into the street and it ends up in the river and could go into the water system? That laws were not meant for them? What do we say when we see a person with a Hatzoloh logo and private ambulance plates that breezes through traffic, parks illegally on 47th street and runs every light on the way home? We see what he did because the CBS helicopter trailled him and showed it on TV? What do we do when we see a prison chaplain give permission for a bar mitzvah that made the news?? Do we say it is a minor thing or do we cringe in shame because one of our own made a chillul Hashem that reflects on all of us?

And what do we say and do when Rubashkin gets a lot of national attention in Iowa and Brooklyn? Notice that I did not say that he did anything wrong, (at this time). We notice it more because we consciously put in an effort to see all the news thjat we can about it. Swift might have the same or even more news about their raid, but we do not notice it because Swift is not 'one of ours'.

BAck to Kolel. Coffee break is over and the 'kids' are calling me.

”

“ That is my point nobody could disagree with your views, and have a normal correspondence going on, and because the way you try to belittle every person who disagrees with you, I just don’t want to be part of it, more importantly I am to old for it. We know your modus operandi, you might find a typo or a wrong expression, and expend on it with vigor, but you need to remember, that will not make your argument whole. Additionally over the last couple of months, I noticed when you are blatantly wrong and it was proven, with sources, you attack the writing style or the writer’s skill, or you just vanish for week, without replying to the facts. As to post #38 or #39 you and the other poster, know exactly what I did, if you don’t, you need to work on your imagination.

PS you right English is not my first or second language.
”

“ You make up lies and then try to blame it on me. #38 was not a reply to me, it couldn't possibly have been, so that's just a lie of yours. I did not claim that Swift cooperated with ICE; I said that Swift's CEO had no objection to deporting his workers, and wouldn't lift a finger to save them, because he couldn't care less what happens to them; and that's why he isn't being charged with any crimes and Sholom Rubashkin is. ”

“ You make up lies and then try to blame it on me. #38 was not a reply to me, it couldn't possibly have been, so that's just a lie of yours. I did not claim that Swift cooperated with ICE; I said that Swift's CEO had no objection to deporting his workers, and wouldn't lift a finger to save them, because he couldn't care less what happens to them; and that's why he isn't being charged with any crimes and Sholom Rubashkin is. ”