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Be'er Sheva - Rabbi Proposes Mashgiach Temidi Supervision via Video Cameras |
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Deri, the brother of former Shas leader Aryeh Deri, believes the idea will save businesses money while improving kashrut supervision.
Deri's plan was formulated after several business owners complained they were paying kashrut supervisors for very few hours of work.
"The restaurant owners can reduce the burden and link the cameras to us," he said. "That way there will be comprehensive and consistent supervision, and we will also help reduce their considerable financial expenses."
Deri said the cameras would save business owners hundreds of shekels a month. "We, of course, will not force any business proprietor to do so, but if he wishes to, the cameras will cost about NIS 139 a month - much less than keeping supervisors for extended hours," he said.
"Naturally, the cameras will not replace the kashrut supervisors, who by virtue of their position also sort through rice, receive goods shipments, and salt meat - things the cameras cannot do," he said. "But cameras can save business owners from paying supervisors for two to three hours of work a day."
Deri said proprietors have expressed enthusiasm about the proposal, and that the Be'er Sheva rabbinate will soon begin partly subsidizing installation and monthly fees for the cameras.
Liron Yifrah, owner of the city's Casa do Brazil restaurant, said, "I think the rabbi's initiative is very positive. The camera initiative will save us business owners on the expense of supervisors, and no less important, restaurants will have greater kashrut enforcement."
But another cafe proprietor was less enthusiastic about the program: "This is a serious invasion of privacy. Soon they'll want to videotape the register.
"Nobody needs to enter my business, or to see how much I earn," he said.
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Read Comments (27) — Post Yours »
1
Jul 08, 2009 at 09:26 PM Anonymous Says:
Like rav hoffman's creative psak earlier today regarding "kol isha" for the soldiers this is another really practical and creative idea for kashruth supervision. I'd rather have one dedicated and sharp mashgiach sitting in front of a computer screen monitoring several establishments than several heimeshe yidden sitting in a corner of the restaurant with their heads buried in a sefer while all sorts of problems go unnoticed back in the kitchen. Someday we will be able to fully automate hashgacha via electronic means but this is a wonderful interim solution. The only protests will be from the mashgichim who will not be able to continue demanding overtime pay for the late hours.
2
Jul 08, 2009 at 09:34 PM Anonymous Says:
Since the Deri family is known for their adherence to the highest ethical levels and daas torah, this suggestion should be given serious consideration.
3
Jul 08, 2009 at 10:03 PM Hashgaca Says:
“ Since the Deri family is known for their adherence to the highest ethical levels and daas torah, this suggestion should be given serious consideration. ”
What happens if the cameras break down or if there is a gitch in the system and it takes time to restore. There will always be people who could get through this like closing the cameras for the night. At the side of the story it might be very good for the labeling system still this doesn't seem right. Like the fellow said next they will want to see my register and how much I earn.
4
Jul 08, 2009 at 09:45 PM Anonymous Says:
Tartikov Beis Din is doing this for years
5
Jul 09, 2009 at 03:03 AM Rochel Says:
I think this idea is ridiculous, a serious supervision can not be made like this, my opinion.
I would like to know how they are going to check vegetables through a screen ;-)
6
Jul 09, 2009 at 06:50 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Tartikov Beis Din is doing this for years ”
Is Tartikov Bais Din giving hashgachos to mechalellai shabbos? If not, I can eat from the store without a video too, maikar hadin.
If the owners are mechalellai shabbos the video is worthless, but a full time mashgiach isn't worth much more.
The food is only as kosher as the owner cares for it to be. If he doesn't care or worse is looking to save $$$ the hashgochah is worthless.
7
Jul 09, 2009 at 06:47 AM Anonymous Says:
“ I think this idea is ridiculous, a serious supervision can not be made like this, my opinion.
I would like to know how they are going to check vegetables through a screen ;-) ”
Drs. read x-rays and MRI's long distance by computer and even check on patients in hospitals and monitor them long-distance with video cameras. As for spotting the bugs, you could have a magnifying camera and have a worker hold up the vegetables for viewing. Or, the vegetables to be used at night, etc. can be pre-screened during the day.
8
Jul 09, 2009 at 07:27 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Tartikov Beis Din is doing this for years ”
It iddn't seem to work when they brought in treife franks to the shwarma place in BP!
9
Jul 09, 2009 at 07:24 AM Anonymous Says:
Hasn't it been paskened (according to many shitos) that cameras don't work in beis din. So why should this be any different?
10
Jul 08, 2009 at 11:10 PM s Says:
“ What happens if the cameras break down or if there is a gitch in the system and it takes time to restore. There will always be people who could get through this like closing the cameras for the night. At the side of the story it might be very good for the labeling system still this doesn't seem right. Like the fellow said next they will want to see my register and how much I earn. ”
I think #2 was being sarcastic and not appropriate or fair to Yehuda Deri
11
Jul 08, 2009 at 11:02 PM Anonymous Says:
“ What happens if the cameras break down or if there is a gitch in the system and it takes time to restore. There will always be people who could get through this like closing the cameras for the night. At the side of the story it might be very good for the labeling system still this doesn't seem right. Like the fellow said next they will want to see my register and how much I earn. ”
and what happens if the mashgiach falls asleep in the plant , on the job and no one was there to see him sleeping and in the meantime 10000`s of pounds of product became not kosher ??
12
Jul 09, 2009 at 07:48 AM Rochel Says:
“ Drs. read x-rays and MRI's long distance by computer and even check on patients in hospitals and monitor them long-distance with video cameras. As for spotting the bugs, you could have a magnifying camera and have a worker hold up the vegetables for viewing. Or, the vegetables to be used at night, etc. can be pre-screened during the day. ”
new technologies...
I don't believe mashgiachim can use powerful technologies to make sure everything is fine... a mashgiach with real yiras shamayim wouldn't trust a computer, now it appears it's all about how much less it costs, if it's only about $ then I don't expect the best in koshrus... Like in everything, there are people who seek for a highest standard, I'm one of them
13
Jul 09, 2009 at 08:22 AM Kashrus Supervisor Says:
I have tried working with these systems. They are not anywhere the same as having a reliable Mashgiach Temidi.
The cameras are somewhat effective to supervise a location owned and operated by Shomrai Torah U'Mitzvos.... reliable people who are not trying to circumvent a system. It helps stop momentary problems/mistakes, etc.
It is nearly worthless with an owner or manager who WANTS to get around the system.
For instance, you put a camera aimed at the back door to watch what they bring in. Knowing there is no mashgiach on the premises, they bring in treifa in shopping bags right through the front door looking like a customer. The "customer" sits down at a location not under a camera, and the bags "disappear."
I can go on and on. But, I have had to take out all cameras and go back to personal, live mashgichim.
The owners/managers don't like a live mashgiach for multiple reasons:
1. He costs money. Any mashgiach worth hiring will get $15/hr and not "produce."
(If he is put to work to the point of actually producing he ceases to be effective.)
He needs to be there from the time the door opens, until it is locked up. That could be nearly 120 hours a week of hashgacha @ $15/hr, or $1,800 a week for a location open 6 days a week from morning till late. That is sometimes more than the place can afford. For those of you who complain about those higher prices, factor this into your figures. And... some locations require a second mashgiach for the back kitchen while there is one up front, during peak times. Hashgacha can mean $2,400 per week sometimes.... that is a lot of money... and the kashrus agency does not get a dime out of that. That is just for the mashgichim's salaries.
2. The owners don't like them around because they slow up production. The mashgiach will make sure all lettuce, and greens are washed and inspected leaf by leaf. This means 90 minutes per case of lettuce.
So, when they need a case of lettuce for salads or whatever, this means a 90-minute wait, plus the added cost of $22.50 in salary per case of lettuce to inspect it.
When they do it themselves, they rush through it, do an awful job, and have the goy do it in 30 minutes at $8 /hr ... labor cost $4.00. That means having that mashgiach temidi costs them $18.50 extra per case of lettuce.
Also, when a trained mashgiach checks lettuce, the yield is less per case. The trained mashgiach, rushing to get the case done in 90 minutes (it can take 2 hours) goes by the book, and tosses away those first 2 or 3 layers of outer leaves on every head. This is the correct way, as they are "bechezkas" infested. The goy worker will just wash them off and keep them.
And, for those of you who say, "Well if the goy can do it, why not?" The goy will not be trained carefully in locating and even "seeing" the small insects like thrips. Many Owners, chareidi yidden, don't know how to check lettuce, and don't know how to recognize some bugs. Sure, they have no problems with the big guys, but the small ones, or the greens ones which burrow inside the leaves, need training.
3. The same for checking eggs. Not as radical, but nevertheless costing money.
I have never seen a camera which is good at washing lettuce
4. The ones who are looking for ways to beat the system, and bring in treif, or other tricks, don't want a real mashgiach watching. For instance, every chef likes to use HIS own personal knives. If not watched, many will take their knives home with them, and bring them in the next day. TREIF knives make traif food.
The above are only a few of the things which are almost never caught on cameras. Some kashrus agencies fool themselves into believing they work.
THEY DON'T WORK.
That being said, they do have a value. They can be used to save an image of the back door traffic, or to keep an electronc eye on various sections of the location to help the mashgiach. It can mean a place which would have required 3 mashgichim can operate with 2 plus cameras. This way, the mashgichim can check the videos during dead times, looking for irregularities. But to replace the mashgiach temidi? NO WAY.
14
Jul 09, 2009 at 09:02 AM Kashrus Supervisor Says:
“ Drs. read x-rays and MRI's long distance by computer and even check on patients in hospitals and monitor them long-distance with video cameras. As for spotting the bugs, you could have a magnifying camera and have a worker hold up the vegetables for viewing. Or, the vegetables to be used at night, etc. can be pre-screened during the day. ”
Rochel is right. Some insects are very difficult to see with the trained eye. I always train my mashgichim to wash their glasses before checking the lettuce. It requires a well-lit area, preferably a light table for the leaves to be checked leaf by leaf. There is no way to do this through a camera.
As for the doctors, the MRI's are sent to them digitally, and they are seeing the same image in their office that they would see at the hospital. Other patient information is given to them from the doctors on the floor who are actually seeing the patient.
Your other suggestion is valid and is practiced all the time. Masgichim often check the lettuce during the dead times before lunch, or betweeen lunch and dinner. This can mean not needing an extra mashgiach. It does not mean no mashgiach.
I know this will tick off many other mashgichim and supervisors, but "Every restaurant using dishes and silverwear, can use a mashgiach in the dining room."
I personally stopped in to catch a bit to eat at a known Glatt Kosher establishment, owned by a reliable, heimishe man. They had a mashgiach in the kitchen. But, while I was waiting for my food, another couple at a nearby table was enjoying a cup of coffee. The waiter brought black coffee, and Rich's pareve creamer. The lady ignored the Rich's and took 2 packets of her own "non-dairy" creamer from her purse and put it into the hot coffee, stiring it with the fork for some reason (not that that mattered.)
Being in the biz, I recognized the brand she had as "non-dairy" but MILCHIG.
There are many products which are for sure milchig, but are labeled as "non-dairy" by government rules, since they do not contain enough milk to meet government specs. So to warn the customers that it is not pure milk/cream, that it contains alot of other ingredients, it is labeled "non-dairy" to warn the customers it is not "real milk"... but it does contain some milk.
So, I got up, talked to the owner who was up front at the register, and he had the mashgiach come out, and they quietly, without embarrassing the customer, cleared the table, and put those dishes into a disposable bin, to go to the dumpster, since they can't be kashered. (Yes, after stirring the cup, she returned the dripping fork to her dinner plate.) and, yes, I am sure they rescued the flatware for kashering.
So, even when you have a heimishe, frum, well-intentioned clientele and staff, mistakes can happen which only a live mashgiach will catch. No camera would have caught that. A mashgiach would have.
(by the way, this owner now insists on having a dining-room mashgiach, in addition to the kitchen mashgiach. But, as I said, he is one of the good guys.)
15
Jul 09, 2009 at 09:24 AM Rochel Says:
“ I have tried working with these systems. They are not anywhere the same as having a reliable Mashgiach Temidi.
The cameras are somewhat effective to supervise a location owned and operated by Shomrai Torah U'Mitzvos.... reliable people who are not trying to circumvent a system. It helps stop momentary problems/mistakes, etc.
It is nearly worthless with an owner or manager who WANTS to get around the system.
For instance, you put a camera aimed at the back door to watch what they bring in. Knowing there is no mashgiach on the premises, they bring in treifa in shopping bags right through the front door looking like a customer. The "customer" sits down at a location not under a camera, and the bags "disappear."
I can go on and on. But, I have had to take out all cameras and go back to personal, live mashgichim.
The owners/managers don't like a live mashgiach for multiple reasons:
1. He costs money. Any mashgiach worth hiring will get $15/hr and not "produce."
(If he is put to work to the point of actually producing he ceases to be effective.)
He needs to be there from the time the door opens, until it is locked up. That could be nearly 120 hours a week of hashgacha @ $15/hr, or $1,800 a week for a location open 6 days a week from morning till late. That is sometimes more than the place can afford. For those of you who complain about those higher prices, factor this into your figures. And... some locations require a second mashgiach for the back kitchen while there is one up front, during peak times. Hashgacha can mean $2,400 per week sometimes.... that is a lot of money... and the kashrus agency does not get a dime out of that. That is just for the mashgichim's salaries.
2. The owners don't like them around because they slow up production. The mashgiach will make sure all lettuce, and greens are washed and inspected leaf by leaf. This means 90 minutes per case of lettuce.
So, when they need a case of lettuce for salads or whatever, this means a 90-minute wait, plus the added cost of $22.50 in salary per case of lettuce to inspect it.
When they do it themselves, they rush through it, do an awful job, and have the goy do it in 30 minutes at $8 /hr ... labor cost $4.00. That means having that mashgiach temidi costs them $18.50 extra per case of lettuce.
Also, when a trained mashgiach checks lettuce, the yield is less per case. The trained mashgiach, rushing to get the case done in 90 minutes (it can take 2 hours) goes by the book, and tosses away those first 2 or 3 layers of outer leaves on every head. This is the correct way, as they are "bechezkas" infested. The goy worker will just wash them off and keep them.
And, for those of you who say, "Well if the goy can do it, why not?" The goy will not be trained carefully in locating and even "seeing" the small insects like thrips. Many Owners, chareidi yidden, don't know how to check lettuce, and don't know how to recognize some bugs. Sure, they have no problems with the big guys, but the small ones, or the greens ones which burrow inside the leaves, need training.
3. The same for checking eggs. Not as radical, but nevertheless costing money.
I have never seen a camera which is good at washing lettuce
4. The ones who are looking for ways to beat the system, and bring in treif, or other tricks, don't want a real mashgiach watching. For instance, every chef likes to use HIS own personal knives. If not watched, many will take their knives home with them, and bring them in the next day. TREIF knives make traif food.
The above are only a few of the things which are almost never caught on cameras. Some kashrus agencies fool themselves into believing they work.
THEY DON'T WORK.
That being said, they do have a value. They can be used to save an image of the back door traffic, or to keep an electronc eye on various sections of the location to help the mashgiach. It can mean a place which would have required 3 mashgichim can operate with 2 plus cameras. This way, the mashgichim can check the videos during dead times, looking for irregularities. But to replace the mashgiach temidi? NO WAY. ”
"Also, when a trained mashgiach checks lettuce, the yield is less per case. The trained mashgiach, rushing to get the case done in 90 minutes (it can take 2 hours) goes by the book, and tosses away those first 2 or 3 layers of outer leaves on every head. This is the correct way, as they are "bechezkas" infested. The goy worker will just wash them off and keep them.
And, for those of you who say, "Well if the goy can do it, why not?" The goy will not be trained carefully in locating and even "seeing" the small insects like thrips. Many Owners, chareidi yidden, don't know how to check lettuce, and don't know how to recognize some bugs. Sure, they have no problems with the big guys, but the small ones, or the greens ones which burrow inside the leaves, need training."
Some mashgiachim would also just clean the lettuce and think it's enough because not all mashgiachim have special training... a contrario a goy could be one of the best checker and knows all the laws of koshrus and knows all kind of toloyim and erase all of them this wouldn't change that it's NOTvaluable because he has NO yiras shamayim.
In all kosher restaurant in my city (and I'm pretty sure it's the same all over the country), there is no lettuce because it's too hard to check, so restaurants don't use it in the meals (except some corn salad, apparently easier to check ?!)
16
Jul 09, 2009 at 09:17 AM Misnaged Says:
The problem is not technical. Video can give a very clear and precise view and can also provide a permanent record that can be reviewed. The problems I see are halachic. Hashgocha provides two things. First it creates a mirsas in the kitchen. that's why a mashgiach can go to the bathroom whithout having everyone stop what they're doing. Since he can be anywhere at any time, the halacha assumes that the kitchen staff are afraid to violate the rules. Video cameras that are part of the landscape cannot may not create the same mirsas. The other issue is eidus. The mashgiach is an eid echad that the product is kosher. Only a human being can be an eid. A video record, although it may be accurate, cannot be accepted as eidus.
17
Jul 09, 2009 at 09:39 AM resturant owner Says:
I am under the ok and in addition to my full time mashguich the ok has access to view my cameras. at first i wasn't so happy about it. (the big brother watching every move i make)but the truth is they are right.
they don't use it to replace the mashguiach but its just a very good additional way to monitor that nothing goes wrong. rabbi Maruss from the ok made it a point that they did not want to see the cash register. i don't believe my camaras were ever abused and on the contrary I somehow feel more at ease knowing that someone else that i trust is keeping an eye on things
18
Jul 09, 2009 at 09:13 AM Kashrus Supervisor Says:
“ and what happens if the mashgiach falls asleep in the plant , on the job and no one was there to see him sleeping and in the meantime 10000`s of pounds of product became not kosher ?? ”
Sure, that is horrible. But, guess what? The mashgiach falling asleep in a plant, and unfortunately it has happened (and the guy was fired), is still less likely than a man sitting watching the most boring computer screens in the world. Can you imagine sitting at a desk, with 10 or more computer screen or monitors, each focused on something in a food plant or restaraunt? Do you believe he is less likely to fall asleep, or more likely to fall asleep, than the man in a working plant?
And, yes, that problem of mashgichim in a large plant falling asleep is solveable. Did you ever see those black boxes the night watchmen use, where they have to check in continuously at various locations around the area every hour, and the times of each check are recorded? We use the same procedure. We have "stations" all over the premises. The machgiach must physically walk over, and put his code in at each one every hour. It takes 15 to 20 minutes to walk from first station to the last. That means he does not have much time to waste. He has time to go to the restroom. He has time to stop and inspect. He has time to do paperwork, etc., But, he does not have time to sleep.
And, Yes, I agree, we need more plants using a system like I just described. Each station is basically a laptop with sign-in software. Each is chained to a desk or shelf with a cheap chain available at office depot. The total cost per station is under $500
19
Jul 09, 2009 at 09:47 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Like rav hoffman's creative psak earlier today regarding "kol isha" for the soldiers this is another really practical and creative idea for kashruth supervision. I'd rather have one dedicated and sharp mashgiach sitting in front of a computer screen monitoring several establishments than several heimeshe yidden sitting in a corner of the restaurant with their heads buried in a sefer while all sorts of problems go unnoticed back in the kitchen. Someday we will be able to fully automate hashgacha via electronic means but this is a wonderful interim solution. The only protests will be from the mashgichim who will not be able to continue demanding overtime pay for the late hours. ”
But when he sees something wrong, now what? This is not new. If you do not like this heter, call up your local supervisor of cholov yisroel and confirm they do not do this. I've heard MANY C"Y operations just fly the mashgiach in a helicopter over the farm or use cameras...
20
Jul 09, 2009 at 09:33 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Rochel is right. Some insects are very difficult to see with the trained eye. I always train my mashgichim to wash their glasses before checking the lettuce. It requires a well-lit area, preferably a light table for the leaves to be checked leaf by leaf. There is no way to do this through a camera.
As for the doctors, the MRI's are sent to them digitally, and they are seeing the same image in their office that they would see at the hospital. Other patient information is given to them from the doctors on the floor who are actually seeing the patient.
Your other suggestion is valid and is practiced all the time. Masgichim often check the lettuce during the dead times before lunch, or betweeen lunch and dinner. This can mean not needing an extra mashgiach. It does not mean no mashgiach.
I know this will tick off many other mashgichim and supervisors, but "Every restaurant using dishes and silverwear, can use a mashgiach in the dining room."
I personally stopped in to catch a bit to eat at a known Glatt Kosher establishment, owned by a reliable, heimishe man. They had a mashgiach in the kitchen. But, while I was waiting for my food, another couple at a nearby table was enjoying a cup of coffee. The waiter brought black coffee, and Rich's pareve creamer. The lady ignored the Rich's and took 2 packets of her own "non-dairy" creamer from her purse and put it into the hot coffee, stiring it with the fork for some reason (not that that mattered.)
Being in the biz, I recognized the brand she had as "non-dairy" but MILCHIG.
There are many products which are for sure milchig, but are labeled as "non-dairy" by government rules, since they do not contain enough milk to meet government specs. So to warn the customers that it is not pure milk/cream, that it contains alot of other ingredients, it is labeled "non-dairy" to warn the customers it is not "real milk"... but it does contain some milk.
So, I got up, talked to the owner who was up front at the register, and he had the mashgiach come out, and they quietly, without embarrassing the customer, cleared the table, and put those dishes into a disposable bin, to go to the dumpster, since they can't be kashered. (Yes, after stirring the cup, she returned the dripping fork to her dinner plate.) and, yes, I am sure they rescued the flatware for kashering.
So, even when you have a heimishe, frum, well-intentioned clientele and staff, mistakes can happen which only a live mashgiach will catch. No camera would have caught that. A mashgiach would have.
(by the way, this owner now insists on having a dining-room mashgiach, in addition to the kitchen mashgiach. But, as I said, he is one of the good guys.) ”
We need better food labeling and full disclosure. There are some people who have severe allergies. There are other people who are strict vegans.
There were some rumors that the OU and other kashrut supervising organizations might start offering vegan supervision as well(and perhaps vegetarian supervision) plus supervision for the most common allergens. Years ago is a product was pareve and had no fish or eggs, it could be relied upon to be vegan. Now that is not the case.
21
Jul 09, 2009 at 09:31 AM Anonymous Says:
No mashgiach, however talented, can check each leaf individually for insects since doing so for certain types of greens with tiny leaves (e.g. baby lettuce, certain micro salad greens etc) is almost a physical impossibility and even if it could be done, would make the cost of the salad more than that of a Kobe Steak. Mashgichim have developed sampling techniques and other procedures with approval of competetent poskim to assure kashruth to the maximum extent practical.
22
Jul 09, 2009 at 08:52 AM chicagomaven Says:
the camera is great as additional support for the mashgiachim, but it can never replace them.
23
Jul 09, 2009 at 12:10 PM Anonymous Says:
Mirsas is a good thing, but it has problems.
Mirsas is one of the most important things we rely on in the kashrus industry. Without it we would likely need a staff of mashgichim maybe 2 to 3 times what we have now in most places.
However, in these days of "oooops... I'm sorry" .... Mirsas is DEAD.
This is a problem for us, a major problem. It used to be that if a person was caught in a clear and unambiguous intentional kashrus violation, not only would he lose his kashrus certification, but others would not pick him up. He had to close down. One thing, nobody else would certify him, and secondly, the word would spread and since he lost nehemonus, nobody would eat his food anymore.
But today, for some strange reason, we are soooo forgiving, that people can hear about a person being caught, and go right back next week eating his food. The people are ready to rely on the "New Kashrus Agency" and on "He won't take a chance to get caught again."...
This is, unfortunately false trust. First of all, no kashrus agency, the one I work for, or any other, can adequately prevent violations by someone who is intentionally trying to bring in treif. If that is the intent, he will eventually succeed. The supervision is good for the normally reliable guy, who is tempted occessionally to do wrong. He is nervous and clumsy and is often spotted. He also is not experienced in getting around the hashgacha staff.
The person who WANTS to serve treif, and unfortunately these people do exist, will find a way.
So, once a person is caught in a deliberate scheme to serve treif, he should NOT be trusted again, no matter which new agency may be foolish enough to give him another shot.
Secondly, in today's oooops society, it is not she life-ruining shame which mirsas used to be.
Thirdly, employees are not scared at all any more. It used to be that if one caterer or restaraunt fired you for treifing up the place, nobody would ever hire you. But today, the world is too big. He can mess up at a kiddush in Flatbush, stirring the chulent and adjusting the flamoe on Shabbos on purpose, get fired for it, (if he is caught), and be working at another kiddush next shabbos for another caterer.
The same for chefs and plant employees.
Mirsas is DEAD.
This means we need more on-site, in-your-face, mashgichim. Unfortunately, we don't have enough trained men to provide.
24
Jul 09, 2009 at 12:41 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Tartikov Beis Din is doing this for years ”
this plus a mashgiach
25
Jul 09, 2009 at 12:26 PM Anonymous Says:
“ No mashgiach, however talented, can check each leaf individually for insects since doing so for certain types of greens with tiny leaves (e.g. baby lettuce, certain micro salad greens etc) is almost a physical impossibility and even if it could be done, would make the cost of the salad more than that of a Kobe Steak. Mashgichim have developed sampling techniques and other procedures with approval of competetent poskim to assure kashruth to the maximum extent practical. ”
You are partially right. That is why so many kosher establishments no longer offer lettuce-type salads.
Unfortunagely, Iceberg and all leaf lettuce DOES need to be checked leaf by leaf. There are no shortcuts. We do not allow anyone to buy prechopped salad greens as they can not ever be checked.
The sampling techniques you mention are used in certain special situations, for certain produce. But they can not be relied on for Iceberg, Romaine, or leaf lettuce.
In fact we use the sampling technique to be stricter. If we take 3 heads out of a case and find them badly infested, we do not allow the rest of the case, as we understand that no mashgiach is perfect, and this job is too hard.
If the mashgiach finds little infestation in those three sample heads, then we allow him to clean and inspect and use the rest. But, still the full procedure:
Separate the leaves
Soak in solution to loosen the bug's grip
Take out each leaf, one at a time,
Rinse under strong running water,
Hold up to strong light, preferably a light box
Remove any infestation found.
Re-rinse.
Toss into "Clean" container, which is NEVER kept near the unclean lettuce (or bugs can and will actually jump from the uncleaned to the cleaned)
This procedure takes time. I know it takes me between an hour and a half to two hours to do a case of lettuce. There are no shortcuts.
Some techniques which are permitted at home are NOT permitted by reliable kashrus administrators. At home you are taking care of your own food, and will be more careful if you wish to, etc., If you are careless, you are not causing strangers to commit many sins.
According the Rambam, it is at least 6 Avairos PER BUG
So, if you are careless, and take bad shortcuts, you can be causing hundreds of avairos.
Remember, the lettuce / salad is the most likely place to get avairos in a commercial eating place.
I once had a rov state, "Never eat in a treif restaurant. But if you did, you probably got more avairos from the salad than from the steak."
An improperly checked salad may contain as many as 20 or more bugs.
Times 6, equals 120 avairos per salad!
A salad not checked at all, can contain double that.
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Jul 09, 2009 at 09:22 PM GREAT IDEA Says:
This is a great idea. Period.
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Jul 10, 2009 at 05:39 PM Milhouse Says:
“ I think this idea is ridiculous, a serious supervision can not be made like this, my opinion.
I would like to know how they are going to check vegetables through a screen ;-) ”
Read the article. Nobody is proposing that the vegetables be checked remotely! But the day mashgiach can check all the vegetables for the night before he goes home, and the night mashgiach can work remotely. He can watch several places at once, because the main thing is that the people in the kitchen don't know when they're being watched.