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Salt Lake City, UT - Jewish Teen Students Experienced Gun Rights on Summer Tour |
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Salt Lake City, UT - Several of the students had a knee-jerk reaction when gun-rights advocate Clark Aposhian blasted his first pistol round into a target Thursday. But it was physical, not ideological.
These students from around America were in Salt Lake City to learn and test their beliefs, not to dismiss opposing views.
Roughly 40 "Etgar 36" Jewish high schoolers traveling the country are hearing from experts on opposing sides of the nation's most politically charged issues. Aposhian was the National Rifle Association's face for the day, following the group's stop in Colorado to hear from a gun-control advocate whose child died in the Columbine school shootings.
"You've met the NRA," tour leader Billy Planer told the students after Aposhian finished demonstrating two handguns and an automatic machine gun. "It's not so demonizing."
Guns are not a natural fit for some of the children, most of whom live in Eastern cities and, Planer said, liberal families. But after hearing Aposhian's hour-long defense of gun rights just before the demonstration, some said they appreciate his opinions even if they disagree.
Boston teenager Sarah Cohen acknowledged she's no Second Amendment scholar, but she couldn't understand Aposhian's support for public ownership of machine guns.
"There's a difference between having a gun for self-protection and having a gun for the military," she said.
Josh Braude, a Northbrook, Ill., student, was disturbed by Utah's permitting of concealed weapons.
"That's scary, because people might have more of a tendency to fire the gun instead of calming down the argument," he said.
Some of the students agreed with Aposhian's defense of admittedly unnecessary or impractical guns -- essentially "why not?" -- and whooped at the noise on the firing range.
Aposhian, the most active lobbyist for gun-rights issues on Utah's Capitol Hill, addressed the students in a room at the Lee Kay Center for Hunter Education. Throughout his talk, a half dozen hands remained always in the air: Don't guns increase suicide? Aren't machine guns simply killing machines? Doesn't easy gun access increase violent crime?
The answer to all three of those particular questions is "no," in Aposhian's view. Japan has fewer guns but more suicides, he said. Machine guns are designed to make people take cover, and are less effective killers than rifles, he said. And he referred to studies indicating gun access reduces crime.
Many of the students questioned his assertions. Some agreed with him. When someone asked why he should have a machine gun, he asked why he shouldn't. He wants one, he said, and it's no different from someone wanting a faster car than they need.
"It's a bull answer," Newton, Pa., student Seth Novick said later, "but it's still a true answer. You don't need it, but you can have it."
It was the seventh time Aposhian has hosted an Etgar 36 summer tour, and he said he's trying to dull some of the gun hype that young Americans hear elsewhere.
Planer has guided each of those trips for the Atlanta-based youth education group and said many retain an anti-gun resolve -- and some are frightened to hear gunfire -- but they respect the debate.
"They walk away realizing sometimes the vilified other side isn't the enemy," he said. "It's just somebody who disagrees with them.
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Read Comments (19) — Post Yours »
1
Jul 09, 2009 at 11:06 PM EVERY JEW A 22 Says:
AREMD CITIZENS MAKE BAD PEASANTS!!!
IN THE WORDS OF HITLER MAY HE BURN IN HELL.
The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or native police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order throughout the occupied Russian territories, and a system of military strong-points must be evolved to cover the entire occupied country." --Adolf Hitler, dinner talk on April 11, 1942, quoted in Hitler's Table Talk 1941-44: His Private Conversations, Second Edition (1973), Pg. 425-426. Translated by Norman Cameron and R. H. Stevens. Introduced and with a new preface by H. R. Trevor-Roper. The original German papers were known as Bormann-Vermerke.
2
Jul 09, 2009 at 11:39 PM joe Says:
we should all become members of the Nra they where giving out free 1 year membership a while ago the are an awasome group and by the way they are not extreamist its time the we start being seroius about the Gun law issues
3
Jul 09, 2009 at 11:39 PM Anonymous Says:
“ AREMD CITIZENS MAKE BAD PEASANTS!!!
IN THE WORDS OF HITLER MAY HE BURN IN HELL.
The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or native police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order throughout the occupied Russian territories, and a system of military strong-points must be evolved to cover the entire occupied country." --Adolf Hitler, dinner talk on April 11, 1942, quoted in Hitler's Table Talk 1941-44: His Private Conversations, Second Edition (1973), Pg. 425-426. Translated by Norman Cameron and R. H. Stevens. Introduced and with a new preface by H. R. Trevor-Roper. The original German papers were known as Bormann-Vermerke. ”
Even as a liberal, I always said that I am against eliminating guns, due to the fact, that in Warsaw ghetto uprising even a small amount of more hand guns, would have held at bay, the two German division, who were engaged, probably it would have taken a few more months and more Jews would have survived
4
Jul 09, 2009 at 11:56 PM me Says:
Gun control means hitting your target. For a comprhensive understanding of the role of guns in today's violent society read Dr. Brandon Centerwall's 1992 paper in JAMA: Television and violence. The scale of the problem and where to go from here.
Centerwall BS.
JAMA. 1992 Jun 10;267(22):3059-63. PMID: 1588720
5
Jul 10, 2009 at 12:10 AM PMO Says:
“ we should all become members of the Nra they where giving out free 1 year membership a while ago the are an awasome group and by the way they are not extreamist its time the we start being seroius about the Gun law issues ”
I do firmly believe that every American has the right to own and use guns. I personally take advantage of that right. However, the NRA is, in fact, a bunch of losers. They make up phony issues where there are none. They put ads on TV claiming that politician so-and-so will take your guns away if you vote for them, even when no such proposal was ever made. Because they lie and inflame people for no reason, they will never earn my membership or my respect.
The gun ownership debate is 100% valid. And while I choose to own weapons, I do have reservations about things like assault weapons and military style weapons. I'm not saying I am against banning them, but I do think that reasonable debate is warranted. However, the NRA just starts shouting about the 2nd Amendment, and the wacko liberals just start shouting about Columbine and no rational discussion or debate ever takes place. The fact is that the Amendment was left ambiguous for a reason. Whether to say that all "arms" are allowed, or such that the specifics could evolve over time, I am unsure. We don't let people build bombs... but we let them have other military-style weaponry. I just wish I could see a real, factual and HONEST debate on this issue for a change.... instead of the crazies on each side stealing the spotlight.
6
Jul 10, 2009 at 06:01 AM Big Daddy Says:
PMO:
I couldn't agree with you more. As an owner of several pistols, I am not calling for a ban on assault rifles but see no need for the average citizen to own one either.
I have a concealed carry permit and never leave the house unarmed.
While I am not a member and don’t plan on being one, the NRA is a bunch of fanatics because they have to combat the other side of fanatics. I wish there was a happy middle.
Good Shabbos yall ;)
7
Jul 10, 2009 at 05:38 AM Anonymous Says:
“ I do firmly believe that every American has the right to own and use guns. I personally take advantage of that right. However, the NRA is, in fact, a bunch of losers. They make up phony issues where there are none. They put ads on TV claiming that politician so-and-so will take your guns away if you vote for them, even when no such proposal was ever made. Because they lie and inflame people for no reason, they will never earn my membership or my respect.
The gun ownership debate is 100% valid. And while I choose to own weapons, I do have reservations about things like assault weapons and military style weapons. I'm not saying I am against banning them, but I do think that reasonable debate is warranted. However, the NRA just starts shouting about the 2nd Amendment, and the wacko liberals just start shouting about Columbine and no rational discussion or debate ever takes place. The fact is that the Amendment was left ambiguous for a reason. Whether to say that all "arms" are allowed, or such that the specifics could evolve over time, I am unsure. We don't let people build bombs... but we let them have other military-style weaponry. I just wish I could see a real, factual and HONEST debate on this issue for a change.... instead of the crazies on each side stealing the spotlight. ”
If anyone knows howto go around getting a gun legaly in NYC please post the details. I've tried but have been heading dead ends, and I need it quite badly, my business requires me to carry around hundreds of thousands of dollars in merchandise.
8
Jul 10, 2009 at 02:40 AM Anonymous Says:
“ I do firmly believe that every American has the right to own and use guns. I personally take advantage of that right. However, the NRA is, in fact, a bunch of losers. They make up phony issues where there are none. They put ads on TV claiming that politician so-and-so will take your guns away if you vote for them, even when no such proposal was ever made. Because they lie and inflame people for no reason, they will never earn my membership or my respect.
The gun ownership debate is 100% valid. And while I choose to own weapons, I do have reservations about things like assault weapons and military style weapons. I'm not saying I am against banning them, but I do think that reasonable debate is warranted. However, the NRA just starts shouting about the 2nd Amendment, and the wacko liberals just start shouting about Columbine and no rational discussion or debate ever takes place. The fact is that the Amendment was left ambiguous for a reason. Whether to say that all "arms" are allowed, or such that the specifics could evolve over time, I am unsure. We don't let people build bombs... but we let them have other military-style weaponry. I just wish I could see a real, factual and HONEST debate on this issue for a change.... instead of the crazies on each side stealing the spotlight. ”
I agree about assault and other military weapons. I am amazed that they are sold. Who needs a SWAT team to bring home some venison? The proper side arm and some hand to hand training like Krav Maga or Abir should be enough for most situations. The first weapon you need however is courage. You mustn't be afraid to use what you have and you must realize you may get hurt but you CAN survive. It is particularly important for women to mentally train themselves for this. We have to change our natural response urge from flight to fight and be ready to do ANYTHING we can to survive. The only weapon I have available right now is a big kitchen knife but I know how to insert it for maximum damage (upwards thrust thru the gut) and I keep it sharp. Unfortunately I can't carry it with me.
9
Jul 10, 2009 at 02:32 AM Anonymous Says:
I would love to see something like this in Israel where, contrary to general opinion not everyone may carry a gun. There are restrictions especially for olim. We cannot own while we live in "West" Jerusalem. Even tho my husband did serve in the IDF, because of his age it was only reserves. One must serve for 3 full years to be eligible for a carry permit. There are a few other permissible criteria, none of which we meet. When we move over the "green line" next month we plan to explore the possibility of obtaining permits. I think as olim however, we may still have to wait 2 more years. I feel safe in our "East" Jerusalem neighborhood but I'm not stupid. I walk and ride buses. I'm more afraid of Barak, Barak & Co. "disengaging" me from my beautiful home than I am of Arab interlopers.
We need gun reform here so that every citizen can protect themselves.
10
Jul 10, 2009 at 01:10 AM Guns Says:
We just had 4th or july people. Think about it, if ir weren't for guns, you would all still be british subjects
11
Jul 10, 2009 at 09:55 AM Anonymous Says:
“ If anyone knows howto go around getting a gun legaly in NYC please post the details. I've tried but have been heading dead ends, and I need it quite badly, my business requires me to carry around hundreds of thousands of dollars in merchandise. ”
you go to the nypds web site there is a section for permits and you do have a valid reason
12
Jul 10, 2009 at 11:04 AM Raphael Kaufman Says:
“ I agree about assault and other military weapons. I am amazed that they are sold. Who needs a SWAT team to bring home some venison? The proper side arm and some hand to hand training like Krav Maga or Abir should be enough for most situations. The first weapon you need however is courage. You mustn't be afraid to use what you have and you must realize you may get hurt but you CAN survive. It is particularly important for women to mentally train themselves for this. We have to change our natural response urge from flight to fight and be ready to do ANYTHING we can to survive. The only weapon I have available right now is a big kitchen knife but I know how to insert it for maximum damage (upwards thrust thru the gut) and I keep it sharp. Unfortunately I can't carry it with me.
”
A couple of Items:
1. I own two military style "assault rifles" which I use in internationally sanctioned competition. True assault rifles can only be possessed by holders of Class III federal firearms permits and reside in states that allow such possession (New York does not).
2. The Right to Keep and Bear Arms guaranteed by the Second Amendment does not refer to hunting, Only to personal and civil defense. The right to hunt is covered by the Ninth Ammendment.
3. Here in Rockland County Concealed Carry Permits can be obtained by application to the Pistol Permit Clerk in New City. The application process is a pain but the permit will be granted to anyone who is not otherwise prohibited. (Forget about NYC unless you are politically connected)
Here in Rockland shotguns and rifles (including military style) do not require any permit to purchase, just the federal instacheck.
4. Sucessful self defense is mostly attitude. All of the Karate, Muy Tai, Krav Maga trainiing and technique is usless unless the person decides in his heart not to be a victim. Agressive defense with no training will whip a 4th dan black belt who hesitates in real combat.
5. Most importantly owning and carrying a deadly weapon, or aquiring deadly fighting skills, requires that the individual be mature and responsible. Carrying a gun does't make you Rambo.
13
Jul 10, 2009 at 01:19 PM Toras Moshe Emes Says:
Josh Braude, a Northbrook, Ill., student, was disturbed by Utah's permitting of concealed weapons. "That's scary, because people might have more of a tendency to fire the gun instead of calming down the argument," he said.
This is one of the big myths promulgated by the anti-gun lobby. I live in Florida, which passed a concealed-carry law in 1987. While the law was being debated, the anti-gun lobby predicted chaos, blood-running-in-the-streets shootouts like dodge city. In reality, the exact opposite happened. Flroida crime rates dropped, violent crime dropped, rape dropped, home invasion rabberies dropped, etc etc.
Since 1987, the state of Florida has issued 1.5 million permits. The number revoked? A grand total of 164. For those of you that are mathematically challeneged, thats about 1/100th of a percent. And, by the way, not a single revocation was due to the use of a gun in a crime. In fact, to date, not one Florida permit carrier has ever used a gun in a crime.
Florida's experience is not unique. Every state that has "liberalized" it's gun laws has likewise experienced a dramatic decrease in crime, especially violent crime (the biggest drop is in crimes against women; as the old expression goes "G-d created man, Colonel Colt made them equal"). More than 20 peer reviewed studies have now been done (including by the CDC, not exactly a pro-gun group) and, without exception, they all show the same results: more guns in the hands of honest citizens results in less crime)
The opposite is true as well, experience has proven that when governments move to restrict gun ownership, crime rates soar. Juast ask people who live Australia or Britain if they are safer since those countries banned handguns. You are now more likely to be the victim of violent crime in London than even new York City
The simple truth is that concealed carry permits allow LAW ABIDING citizens to protect themselves from the animals that otherwise rule our streets. I know. I have a permit. I carry a gun and that gun has prevented two violent crimes and, maybe, saved my life. By the way, I didn't even have to fire it: In one case, a small gang of anti-semites bent on thuggery, I simply displayed it, in the other, an attempted robbery, I had to draw it and point it at the perpetrator.
To all you liberal-lefty bleeding heart types out there, I ask a simple question: would you have preferred that I had been beaten, maybe to death, by the gang? As for me, I thank G-d I live in a state that allows me to defend myself instead of being a victim waiting to happen.
14
Jul 10, 2009 at 03:39 PM Anonymous Says:
“ AREMD CITIZENS MAKE BAD PEASANTS!!!
IN THE WORDS OF HITLER MAY HE BURN IN HELL.
The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or native police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order throughout the occupied Russian territories, and a system of military strong-points must be evolved to cover the entire occupied country." --Adolf Hitler, dinner talk on April 11, 1942, quoted in Hitler's Table Talk 1941-44: His Private Conversations, Second Edition (1973), Pg. 425-426. Translated by Norman Cameron and R. H. Stevens. Introduced and with a new preface by H. R. Trevor-Roper. The original German papers were known as Bormann-Vermerke. ”
A rabid anti-Semite murdered a Jewish coed at Wesleyan College recently.
The police found hate literature in the suspect's apartment and notified Connecticut rabbis, who quickly cancelled Jewish public life in that state until the suspect was arrested a day or two later.
I read about this and knew what I had to do:
I applied and just received my gun permit.
15
Jul 10, 2009 at 03:35 PM Anonymous Says:
“ AREMD CITIZENS MAKE BAD PEASANTS!!!
IN THE WORDS OF HITLER MAY HE BURN IN HELL.
The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or native police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order throughout the occupied Russian territories, and a system of military strong-points must be evolved to cover the entire occupied country." --Adolf Hitler, dinner talk on April 11, 1942, quoted in Hitler's Table Talk 1941-44: His Private Conversations, Second Edition (1973), Pg. 425-426. Translated by Norman Cameron and R. H. Stevens. Introduced and with a new preface by H. R. Trevor-Roper. The original German papers were known as Bormann-Vermerke. ”
A .22 is not going to do it.
16
Jul 10, 2009 at 05:03 PM Milhouse Says:
The advantage of concealed carry is that it protects everybody, even those who choose not to carry. Even if only 10% of people would carry concealed, the criminals wouldn't know who is in that 10%, so they'd be afraid of attacking anyone.
17
Jul 10, 2009 at 07:41 PM NJinFlag Says:
I believe its invaluable exposing these kids to the opposite position from what most believe in. They then can make a more educated opinion as to their position on these very important issues. Most people who support more stringent gun control laws would never attend an NRA convention just like those hardcore believers in the war on drugs would never attend a NORML conference.
18
Jul 12, 2009 at 03:56 PM Milhouse Says:
“ I believe its invaluable exposing these kids to the opposite position from what most believe in. They then can make a more educated opinion as to their position on these very important issues. Most people who support more stringent gun control laws would never attend an NRA convention just like those hardcore believers in the war on drugs would never attend a NORML conference. ”
Actually, most Americans do believe in the second amendment. So these kids are being exposed to the MAJORITY view; it's just not one they're likely to have encountered in their sheltered upbringing by radical leftists.
19
Jul 13, 2009 at 01:38 AM A. Nuran Says:
I was a typical upper-middle class liberal urban Jew. Which is to say I was 100% against private gun ownership. For one reason and another I changed my mind. This is a good thing because it proved I was able to change an opinion which turned out to be incorrect - a sign that one has a functioning brain.
It turned out to be even better when someone tried to break into my house late one night. Nobody got shot, B"H. He decided that the little red dot from the laser sight spoke perfect home-invasion robber. And it said "I think it's time you left now,"
And as far as it goes, with the resurgent neo-Nazi movement I'm happier knowing that not all the guns are in the hands of people who hate us. Knowing that there are responsible armed yids makes me sleep easier at night.