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Cleveland, OH - Financial Hardship Prompts More And More Reform Jews To Choose Cremations |
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This is whats left, Cremains are placed sometimes in a marble urn
Goldwassser’s mother, who was cremated 12 years ago, “felt that too much of the earth was taken up by cemeteries, and did not want an in-ground burial,” says the Pepper Pike resident.
Goldwasser, who belongs to a Reform congregation, plans likewise and has given her family explicit directions about her end-of-life plans. “I don’t want them to be bound to visit a stone marking my gravesite,” she says. “I believe they can honor me by walking in the woods and feeling the wind on their faces. They’ll know that my spirit is always there.”
Cremation is anathema to strict interpretation of Jewish law. Tradition teaches that Jews must show kavod (honor) for the body that housed the spirit and breath of God.
Although exact figures are hard to come by, Jewish funeral directors agree that cremations within the Jewish community in North America and Europe are on the rise.
In Greater Cleveland, many people say economic factors, mobility of children, and even the wishes of the deceased or the survivors are leading them to consider cremation.
Read the full story at the Cleveland Jewish News
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Read Comments (45) — Post Yours »
1
Jul 10, 2009 at 08:47 AM Anonymous Says:
Who knows is many of them are Yiden anyway.
2
Jul 10, 2009 at 09:11 AM yankel Says:
They're making ashes of themselves!
3
Jul 10, 2009 at 09:19 AM rebbetzin hockstein Says:
“ Who knows is many of them are Yiden anyway. ”
Yisroel af al pi chatah, yisroel hoo! However, your comment leave me wondering about you and your yichus: the middos of a Jew are chasodim, rachmonim and bayshanim....sorry to say, I don't see any of that by you.
4
Jul 10, 2009 at 09:43 AM Sad Says:
My family was also cremated!!! by the NAZIS Yemach Shmom!!!.
5
Jul 10, 2009 at 09:45 AM Shua Says:
I don't understand. Any Jew who officially aligns with Reformism or Conservativism has abandoned Judaism for another religion. By its 3000 year-old definition “Judaism” presupposes a belief in Torah Mi’Sinai and the 13 principles of the Rambam. “Conservativism” and “Reformism,” having rejected these principles, are nothing more than religious derivatives of Judaism (no less than the various Christian denominations), their distorted self-identification notwithstanding.
Their spiritual leaders are NOT 'rabbis,' but 'ministers' or 'reverends.' And as Reform Rev. Eric Brand admitted in the article: "...some congregants have principled stances for choosing cremation, and I honor that.” Indeed, these misguided Jewish reverends "honor" everything and anything that is antithetical to Toras Emes. This they have the chutzpah to call "Judaism?"
As our gedolim have realized, these religious offshoots of authentic Torah Judaism -- Conservativism, Reformism, Reconstructionism -- have been the greatest enemies of the Jewish people in the past two centuries, for they have taken advantage of the ignorance of their followers by deluding them into believing that they are practicing Judaism when they are not. So, what's so surprising about the increased popularity of cremation? Reformism and Conservatism continue to reap what they have sown: the destruction of Jews through the destruction of Torah.
6
Jul 10, 2009 at 10:26 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Yisroel af al pi chatah, yisroel hoo! However, your comment leave me wondering about you and your yichus: the middos of a Jew are chasodim, rachmonim and bayshanim....sorry to say, I don't see any of that by you. ”
Obviously you misssed his point. Many of the reform are in fact not halachacly jewish. Many of those who they consider jewish either had a reform conversion which is not a halachic conversion or are not of jewish matrilinic desecent, therefore they are not jews.
7
Jul 10, 2009 at 10:15 AM Anonymous Says:
“ My family was also cremated!!! by the NAZIS Yemach Shmom!!!. ”
this was different r'l than what is today, for sure they are 100% no jews.
8
Jul 10, 2009 at 10:02 AM AuthenticSatmar Says:
Jews have the torah, Xtians have the new testament, Muslims have the Koran.
What do reform/conservative jews have as their guide?
9
Jul 10, 2009 at 10:37 AM Anonymous Says:
The Reformers and Conservatives destroy Jewish souls when they are alive. What's so surprising that they would accommodate destroying Jewish bodies after their deaths?
10
Jul 10, 2009 at 11:15 AM reb lazer hakuten Says:
Long ago they were mattir to work on Shabbos so you can make more money. They were Mattir Chazzer because it's cheaper
11
Jul 10, 2009 at 11:12 AM Shua Says:
“ Jews have the torah, Xtians have the new testament, Muslims have the Koran.
What do reform/conservative jews have as their guide? ”
> "What do reform/conservative Jews have as their guide?”
>> The Declaration of Independence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident [not Toras Emes but secular humanist truths] that all men are created equal [not that Klal Yisrael has a special mission of Avodas Hashem and tikun olam], that they are endowed by their Creator [should one choose to believe in a Creator, its optional] with certain unalienable Rights [I've got my rights!...obligations?... responsibilities?...what are those?], that among these are Life [I can live my life anyway I want to], Liberty [I'm free to choose any alternate lifestyle I like; those mitzvot are just a scheme to enslave me to some Big Guy in the sky] and the pursuit of Happiness [hey, if pursuing gashmius makes you happy, go for it dude].
12
Jul 10, 2009 at 11:12 AM NeveAliza Says:
Apparently this has become a burning issue.
13
Jul 10, 2009 at 11:46 AM BT Says:
A person who identifies himself as Reform or Conservative may be a member of such a congregation or be a person of moderate or little observance. It does not mean that they are not Jewish. I am a BT who paid for a burial of a relative who wanted cremation. I stopped the other family members from cremating him and he is buried in an Orthodox cemetary. The family, who would have saved money on his cremation, paid what they would have paid for the cremation and me and the chevra kadisha covered the rest. If you know someone who is planning cremation, try to stop them. It is a terrible mistake.
14
Jul 10, 2009 at 11:34 AM Barzilai Says:
To say that halacha prohibits cremation is overreaching. As Tosfos Yomtov in Pesachim says, there is nothing technically wrong with cremation; it's just that the minhag is to not do it. Minhagim are very important, and minhagim are sometimes called halacha. But there is one very big difference between them: If you disregard halacha, you're an avaryan, a rasha, and a bum. If you disregard minhag, you're just a bum.
15
Jul 10, 2009 at 12:16 PM Anonymous Says:
Shua! Well put! I applaud your common sense...if only one reform/conservative Jew would return to torah umitzvos after reading your post you’re my hero!!!
16
Jul 10, 2009 at 01:15 PM Shua Says:
“ Apparently this has become a burning issue. ”
> "Apparently this has become a burning issue.”
>>Cute...very cute.
In a more serious vein, I have been told of a machlokes between Rav Moshe Feinstein zt'l and the Chazon Ish zt"l on the issue of cremation. Rav Moshe apparently held that tinuk shenishba does NOT extend to Jews who mammash request cremation...i.e. even the most assimilated Jew should know that this is a line not to be crossed. As a result, there being no physical body to resurrect, these unfortunate Yidden have forfeited t'chias ha'maysim. The Chazon Ish apparently disagrees; tinuk shenishba saves the day for them. My guess is that those poor souls who left instructions for their bodies to be cremated are now in Ha'Olam HaEmes praying that when the time comes, the Ribbono Shel Olam will pasken like the Chazon Ish ;-)
17
Jul 10, 2009 at 01:44 PM wow Says:
the hate that religious jews have for the secular will just cause a bigger gap.... lets not forget how small in number you religious jews are how many schools and orginazations are supported by your"yidishe shkutzim" as you call us.... Wake up its 2009 times changed the religion you think you practice isnt the way its is supposed to be have you not learned the reason why the ten commandments are half about god and half about your fellow man (doesnt say religious man) are near each other is because god wants you treat ppl with respect.... keep the hate coming its only so long that you will need us and i for one will help cause a jew helps a jew regardless of how he practices...
18
Jul 10, 2009 at 02:33 PM Chevra Member Says:
I am on the Chevra Kasisha in my community.
I have seen firsthand the results. The funeral home where I do most of my work has all the arrangements posted on the boards for us all to see.
Here are the tearful results. These are approximate, since people do try all different variations. For instance, some get tahara + shomer. Some tahara but no shomer, some shomer and no tahara. and some limit the shomer to one shift only.
15 years ago, out of 20 of those who were niftar the results were APPROXIMATELY as follows:
18 Tahara, Shomer, CORRECT (shrouds and plain casket) Jewish Burial
1 Fancy Casket, dressed in Own Clothes and maybe put in Mouseleum
1 Cremated
TODAY:
4 Tahara, Shomer, CORRECT (shrouds and plain casket) Jewish Burial
5 Fancy Casket, dressed in Own Clothes and maybe put in Mouseleum
6 Cremated
Of of the reasons for this, is not only the attitude of the families, but the attitude of the Funeral Directors. Funeral Directors actually UNSELL the good plans the deceased made while he/she was alive. One of the methods they use is:
"Was he/she really THAT "super religious"?
"Well, then you don't really need that stuff. Don't you want your father/mother/etc., to be buried looking decent? Or do you want his/her face covered with dirt and broken pottery?
Do you want a cheap wooden casket which will decompose immediately, or wouldn't you prefer to protect your father/mother in a sealed metal casket where he/she will be preserved for many years?
The then take the money which was put aside for the kosher Jewish funeral, and apply it towards a genuine goyishe funeral.
The Rabbis keep quiet. They want to make that $500 to do funerals. They like being called a time or two per week. They are living off this.
If they object, they will get no more funerals from the funeral home.
One of the causes is that many, many funeral homes, including ones which used to be familiar Jewish funeral homes have been bought up by one of the giant anti-semitic goyish jumbo corporations, SCI, which ownes thousands of funeral homes, and fires Jewish Funeral Directors soon after acquiring the property. They change all the policies, but now own all those pre-need contracts.
It is a real tragedy.
19
Jul 10, 2009 at 02:42 PM Vice Versa Says:
“ the hate that religious jews have for the secular will just cause a bigger gap.... lets not forget how small in number you religious jews are how many schools and orginazations are supported by your"yidishe shkutzim" as you call us.... Wake up its 2009 times changed the religion you think you practice isnt the way its is supposed to be have you not learned the reason why the ten commandments are half about god and half about your fellow man (doesnt say religious man) are near each other is because god wants you treat ppl with respect.... keep the hate coming its only so long that you will need us and i for one will help cause a jew helps a jew regardless of how he practices... ”
Wow! Look at all the hate the non-religious secular Jews have for the religious Jews. They, the "secular Jews" who hardly contribute a dime to OUR yeshivos have the nerve to butt in.
They are also ignorant enough to not realize that trying to help a person not lose his techiyas HaMeisim or Olam Habah, is one of the kidest things we could do for him.
When we see our Jewish brothers on a path of spiritual self-destruction, wherebuy their enternity will be lost, in exchange for bad decisions in this temporary stay on Earth, we want to save their very existence.
That is not hatered.... that is loving kindness.
We could just turn a cold shoulder on the secular Jews and ignore them, allowing them to be lost. Instead we work hard to try to save their lives.
And they are fools enough to call that hateful.
How Sad.
20
Jul 10, 2009 at 03:28 PM Anonymous Says:
I'm a baal teshuva from Cleveland.
I flew in from Eretz Yisrael to see my mother a"h but she passed away before I got there. The owner of the funeral home mentioned in the article refused to respect Halacha and, unbelievably, was outrageously cruel to me, called me names and accused me of hurting my father (who he knew for many years) because I became religious, etc. This was even before the funeral.
I had to be shomer her mais all night because he woulnd't arrange it.
He also got my father (who was also dying) to pay for whatever the procedure is when they inject the mais with special fluids, BD"H.
Mamzer.
21
Jul 10, 2009 at 04:47 PM Milhouse Says:
Can someone give the source for this prohibition, and the reason? In Chazal's day the Romans would be cremated because they didn't believe in techiyas hameisim, so anyone who wanted to be cremated was seen as a kofer. But suppose a person says that he absolutely believes in techiyas hameisim, but Hashem can of course rebuild a person from ashes just as easily as from a decomposed corpse or one that's been buried at sea and eaten by the fish, so he wants to be cremated; what exactly is wrong with that? A few years ago I went looking for the mokor, thinking it would be easy to find, but I came up empty. Im kabooloh hi nekabel, oober vee shtait geshriben? Is it like the requirement for a mechitza during davening, so obvious that nobody thought it necessary to write it down?
22
Jul 10, 2009 at 05:55 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Can someone give the source for this prohibition, and the reason? In Chazal's day the Romans would be cremated because they didn't believe in techiyas hameisim, so anyone who wanted to be cremated was seen as a kofer. But suppose a person says that he absolutely believes in techiyas hameisim, but Hashem can of course rebuild a person from ashes just as easily as from a decomposed corpse or one that's been buried at sea and eaten by the fish, so he wants to be cremated; what exactly is wrong with that? A few years ago I went looking for the mokor, thinking it would be easy to find, but I came up empty. Im kabooloh hi nekabel, oober vee shtait geshriben? Is it like the requirement for a mechitza during davening, so obvious that nobody thought it necessary to write it down? ”
Try the following:
1. "Every death which is accompanied by burning is looked upon as idolatry,"
Mishnah, Avodah Zora 1.3
2.The niftar must be buried in the earth, Yorah Deah 348:3; 362:1,
3. The body must be buried in its entirety, Yerushalmi, Nazir 7:1.
4. Even if someone requests to be cremated we do not comply, Yoreh Deah
348:3 (see also Talmud Yerushalmi, Kesuvos 11:1)
The following is from "The Jewish Way in Death and Mourning" by Rabbi Maurice Lamm:
Cremation is never permitted. The deceased must be interred, bodily, in the earth. It is forbidden-in every and any circumstance-to reduce the dead to ash in a crematorium. It is an offensive act. It does violence to the spirit and letter of Jewish law, which never, in the long past, sanctioned the ancient pagan practice of burning on the pyre. The Jewish abhorrence of cremation has already been noted by Tacitus, the ancient historian, who remarked (upon what appeared to be a distinguishing characteristic) that Jews buried, rather than burned their dead. Even if the deceased willed cremation, his wishes must be ignored...Biblical law takes precedence over the instructions of the deceased.
23
Jul 11, 2009 at 04:05 PM Anonymous Says:
“ the hate that religious jews have for the secular will just cause a bigger gap.... lets not forget how small in number you religious jews are how many schools and orginazations are supported by your"yidishe shkutzim" as you call us.... Wake up its 2009 times changed the religion you think you practice isnt the way its is supposed to be have you not learned the reason why the ten commandments are half about god and half about your fellow man (doesnt say religious man) are near each other is because god wants you treat ppl with respect.... keep the hate coming its only so long that you will need us and i for one will help cause a jew helps a jew regardless of how he practices... ”
Meanwhile, I know full well that when push comes to shove and your secular organizations do not help in times of need, you are the first ones to contact frum social service organizations both here and in EY for help, which we do give generously. Rarely has it ever happened the other way around except when a grateful donor supports a frum social service organization because he knows that it, unlike the secular organizations, is there when needed.
24
Jul 11, 2009 at 04:02 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Yisroel af al pi chatah, yisroel hoo! However, your comment leave me wondering about you and your yichus: the middos of a Jew are chasodim, rachmonim and bayshanim....sorry to say, I don't see any of that by you. ”
He means only that with the kefira movements making a mess of giyur and reform claiming children of Jewish fathers are Jews, we do not know always that a member of a reform or conservative congregation is a Jew al pi halacha.
25
Jul 11, 2009 at 09:27 PM Shlomo Says:
“ Wow! Look at all the hate the non-religious secular Jews have for the religious Jews. They, the "secular Jews" who hardly contribute a dime to OUR yeshivos have the nerve to butt in.
They are also ignorant enough to not realize that trying to help a person not lose his techiyas HaMeisim or Olam Habah, is one of the kidest things we could do for him.
When we see our Jewish brothers on a path of spiritual self-destruction, wherebuy their enternity will be lost, in exchange for bad decisions in this temporary stay on Earth, we want to save their very existence.
That is not hatered.... that is loving kindness.
We could just turn a cold shoulder on the secular Jews and ignore them, allowing them to be lost. Instead we work hard to try to save their lives.
And they are fools enough to call that hateful.
How Sad. ”
Don't fool yourself: the attitudes expressed here (and other places) is often far from "loving kindness." From "they're probably not yiden anyway" to "they've joined another religion," etc. the comments have been neither loving nor kind.
They are not, as you called them, "fools." They see the attitude, the anger, the disdain and know that it is not hesed but hatred.
This is not to in any way excuse the behavior of the movements: they are antithetical to Torah values and have attacked the frum world for well over a century (albeit less nowadays then it used to be). But currently the majority of their adherents simply don't know better.
26
Jul 11, 2009 at 10:39 PM Shua Says:
“ Don't fool yourself: the attitudes expressed here (and other places) is often far from "loving kindness." From "they're probably not yiden anyway" to "they've joined another religion," etc. the comments have been neither loving nor kind.
They are not, as you called them, "fools." They see the attitude, the anger, the disdain and know that it is not hesed but hatred.
This is not to in any way excuse the behavior of the movements: they are antithetical to Torah values and have attacked the frum world for well over a century (albeit less nowadays then it used to be). But currently the majority of their adherents simply don't know better.
”
> Shlomo wrote: “ Don't fool yourself: the attitudes expressed here (and other places) is often far from "loving kindness." From "they're probably not Yidden anyway" to "they've joined another religion," etc. the comments have been neither loving nor kind.
>> Shlomo, I think that most Orthodox Jews draw a distinction between the followers of Reformism and Conservativism who are Jewishly uneducated and therefore innocent (i.e. tinukos shenishba), and the leaders of these movements who peddle their apikorsis to these poor lost neshamas. The truth is that the entire Kiruv effort over the last 3 decades, and the successes it has achieved through the Ba'al Teshuva movement, has been motivated entirely by ahavas chessed. Of course, we would love for more of our wayward brethren to become ba'alei teshuva, especially at this critical time preceding the final geula.
Unfortunately, Kiruv professionals do have to be extremely careful nowadays, due to the fact that Reformism and Conservativism have MANY adherents who are mammash gentiles and NOT Jewish. Sadly, patrilineal descent and non-halachic conversions have rendered every adherent to Reformism and Conservativism suspect as Jews. And just look at the horror going on in Eretz Yisrael, where it was revealed last week that scores of converts by the Orthodox Rabbinate (no less) are actually Christian missionaries. Can you imagine how many of these folks have infiltrated Reformism and Conservativism? What a mess!!!
27
Jul 11, 2009 at 10:39 PM Shua Says:
“ Don't fool yourself: the attitudes expressed here (and other places) is often far from "loving kindness." From "they're probably not yiden anyway" to "they've joined another religion," etc. the comments have been neither loving nor kind.
They are not, as you called them, "fools." They see the attitude, the anger, the disdain and know that it is not hesed but hatred.
This is not to in any way excuse the behavior of the movements: they are antithetical to Torah values and have attacked the frum world for well over a century (albeit less nowadays then it used to be). But currently the majority of their adherents simply don't know better.
”
> Shlomo wrote: “ Don't fool yourself: the attitudes expressed here (and other places) is often far from "loving kindness." From "they're probably not Yidden anyway" to "they've joined another religion," etc. the comments have been neither loving nor kind.
>> Shlomo, I think that most Orthodox Jews draw a distinction between the followers of Reformism and Conservativism who are Jewishly uneducated and therefore innocent (i.e. tinukos shenishba), and the leaders of these movements who peddle their apikorsis to these poor lost neshamas. The truth is that the entire Kiruv effort over the last 3 decades, and the successes it has achieved through the Ba'al Teshuva movement, has been motivated entirely by ahavas chessed. Of course, we would love for more of our wayward brethren to become ba'alei teshuva, especially at this critical time preceding the final geula.
Unfortunately, Kiruv professionals do have to be extremely careful nowadays, due to the fact that Reformism and Conservativism have MANY adherents who are mammash gentiles and NOT Jewish. Sadly, patrilineal descent and non-halachic conversions have rendered every adherent to Reformism and Conservativism suspect as Jews. And just look at the horror going on in Eretz Yisrael, where it was revealed last week that scores of converts by the Orthodox Rabbinate (no less) are actually Christian missionaries. Can you imagine how many of these folks have infiltrated Reformism and Conservativism? What a mess!!!
28
Jul 11, 2009 at 11:29 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I am on the Chevra Kasisha in my community.
I have seen firsthand the results. The funeral home where I do most of my work has all the arrangements posted on the boards for us all to see.
Here are the tearful results. These are approximate, since people do try all different variations. For instance, some get tahara + shomer. Some tahara but no shomer, some shomer and no tahara. and some limit the shomer to one shift only.
15 years ago, out of 20 of those who were niftar the results were APPROXIMATELY as follows:
18 Tahara, Shomer, CORRECT (shrouds and plain casket) Jewish Burial
1 Fancy Casket, dressed in Own Clothes and maybe put in Mouseleum
1 Cremated
TODAY:
4 Tahara, Shomer, CORRECT (shrouds and plain casket) Jewish Burial
5 Fancy Casket, dressed in Own Clothes and maybe put in Mouseleum
6 Cremated
Of of the reasons for this, is not only the attitude of the families, but the attitude of the Funeral Directors. Funeral Directors actually UNSELL the good plans the deceased made while he/she was alive. One of the methods they use is:
"Was he/she really THAT "super religious"?
"Well, then you don't really need that stuff. Don't you want your father/mother/etc., to be buried looking decent? Or do you want his/her face covered with dirt and broken pottery?
Do you want a cheap wooden casket which will decompose immediately, or wouldn't you prefer to protect your father/mother in a sealed metal casket where he/she will be preserved for many years?
The then take the money which was put aside for the kosher Jewish funeral, and apply it towards a genuine goyishe funeral.
The Rabbis keep quiet. They want to make that $500 to do funerals. They like being called a time or two per week. They are living off this.
If they object, they will get no more funerals from the funeral home.
One of the causes is that many, many funeral homes, including ones which used to be familiar Jewish funeral homes have been bought up by one of the giant anti-semitic goyish jumbo corporations, SCI, which ownes thousands of funeral homes, and fires Jewish Funeral Directors soon after acquiring the property. They change all the policies, but now own all those pre-need contracts.
It is a real tragedy. ”
The real tragedy is how these people lived their whole lives, without concern for torah and halachah, not that they died that way.
What difference does it make if a mechallail shabbos is buried kehalachah when his whole life was lived shelo kehalachah? Will the tahara change the fact that he lived with his wife as a nidah for 50 years? With the tachrichim get him into Heaven? With the plain pine box get him the place in olam habah he didn't earn by putting on tefillin every day? From what will the shomer (which is not needed in today's funeral homes) protect him?
29
Jul 11, 2009 at 11:22 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I'm a baal teshuva from Cleveland.
I flew in from Eretz Yisrael to see my mother a"h but she passed away before I got there. The owner of the funeral home mentioned in the article refused to respect Halacha and, unbelievably, was outrageously cruel to me, called me names and accused me of hurting my father (who he knew for many years) because I became religious, etc. This was even before the funeral.
I had to be shomer her mais all night because he woulnd't arrange it.
He also got my father (who was also dying) to pay for whatever the procedure is when they inject the mais with special fluids, BD"H.
Mamzer. ”
LeHalachah, there is no need for a shomer if the mais is in a modern secure facility.
30
Jul 12, 2009 at 04:28 AM Shlomo Says:
“ > Shlomo wrote: “ Don't fool yourself: the attitudes expressed here (and other places) is often far from "loving kindness." From "they're probably not Yidden anyway" to "they've joined another religion," etc. the comments have been neither loving nor kind.
>> Shlomo, I think that most Orthodox Jews draw a distinction between the followers of Reformism and Conservativism who are Jewishly uneducated and therefore innocent (i.e. tinukos shenishba), and the leaders of these movements who peddle their apikorsis to these poor lost neshamas. The truth is that the entire Kiruv effort over the last 3 decades, and the successes it has achieved through the Ba'al Teshuva movement, has been motivated entirely by ahavas chessed. Of course, we would love for more of our wayward brethren to become ba'alei teshuva, especially at this critical time preceding the final geula.
Unfortunately, Kiruv professionals do have to be extremely careful nowadays, due to the fact that Reformism and Conservativism have MANY adherents who are mammash gentiles and NOT Jewish. Sadly, patrilineal descent and non-halachic conversions have rendered every adherent to Reformism and Conservativism suspect as Jews. And just look at the horror going on in Eretz Yisrael, where it was revealed last week that scores of converts by the Orthodox Rabbinate (no less) are actually Christian missionaries. Can you imagine how many of these folks have infiltrated Reformism and Conservativism? What a mess!!! ”
“ > Shlomo wrote: “ Don't fool yourself: the attitudes expressed here (and other places) is often far from "loving kindness." From "they're probably not Yidden anyway" to "they've joined another religion," etc. the comments have been neither loving nor kind.
>> Shlomo, I think that most Orthodox Jews draw a distinction between the followers of Reformism and Conservativism who are Jewishly uneducated and therefore innocent (i.e. tinukos shenishba), and the leaders of these movements who peddle their apikorsis to these poor lost neshamas. The truth is that the entire Kiruv effort over the last 3 decades, and the successes it has achieved through the Ba'al Teshuva movement, has been motivated entirely by ahavas chessed. Of course, we would love for more of our wayward brethren to become ba'alei teshuva, especially at this critical time preceding the final geula.
Unfortunately, Kiruv professionals do have to be extremely careful nowadays, due to the fact that Reformism and Conservativism have MANY adherents who are mammash gentiles and NOT Jewish. Sadly, patrilineal descent and non-halachic conversions have rendered every adherent to Reformism and Conservativism suspect as Jews. And just look at the horror going on in Eretz Yisrael, where it was revealed last week that scores of converts by the Orthodox Rabbinate (no less) are actually Christian missionaries. Can you imagine how many of these folks have infiltrated Reformism and Conservativism? What a mess!!! ”
I'm pointing out that the language that people use to post comments here is reflective of an attitude of anger and disdain. As a "BT," I understand the importance of the Kiruv effort and of the problems, especially with Reform, of intermarriage and of patrilineal descent. Nevertheless, we should be reflective and look at our motivations and our responses to issues with the non-Frum world. I was fortunate in that I met people who showed me a Judaism of chesed and emes---not a Judaism of hate, and of riots, and of denying me my heritage. If I had met the ones who would have simply dismissed me with "you're not Jewish anyway," I doubt that I would have found Torah.
If presented with a child from a Reform or Conservative background, why push him/her away because the family might not be Jewish? If he or she identifies as Jewish, good! Treat them all with respect and, if things go well and an opportunity to be mekarev them presents itself, there will be a time and a place to address the problems of background/heritage.
31
Jul 12, 2009 at 02:11 AM Milhouse Says:
“ LeHalachah, there is no need for a shomer if the mais is in a modern secure facility.
”
There certainly is, if there's a danger that they'll embalm him, or autopsy him, ch"v.
32
Jul 12, 2009 at 02:05 AM Milhouse Says:
“ Don't fool yourself: the attitudes expressed here (and other places) is often far from "loving kindness." From "they're probably not yiden anyway" to "they've joined another religion," etc. the comments have been neither loving nor kind.
They are not, as you called them, "fools." They see the attitude, the anger, the disdain and know that it is not hesed but hatred.
This is not to in any way excuse the behavior of the movements: they are antithetical to Torah values and have attacked the frum world for well over a century (albeit less nowadays then it used to be). But currently the majority of their adherents simply don't know better.
”
You're ignoring the fact that very many of them are NOT yidden anyway. This isn't an "attitude", it's a fact.
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Jul 12, 2009 at 01:55 AM Milhouse Says:
“ Try the following:
1. "Every death which is accompanied by burning is looked upon as idolatry,"
Mishnah, Avodah Zora 1.3
2.The niftar must be buried in the earth, Yorah Deah 348:3; 362:1,
3. The body must be buried in its entirety, Yerushalmi, Nazir 7:1.
4. Even if someone requests to be cremated we do not comply, Yoreh Deah
348:3 (see also Talmud Yerushalmi, Kesuvos 11:1)
The following is from "The Jewish Way in Death and Mourning" by Rabbi Maurice Lamm:
Cremation is never permitted. The deceased must be interred, bodily, in the earth. It is forbidden-in every and any circumstance-to reduce the dead to ash in a crematorium. It is an offensive act. It does violence to the spirit and letter of Jewish law, which never, in the long past, sanctioned the ancient pagan practice of burning on the pyre. The Jewish abhorrence of cremation has already been noted by Tacitus, the ancient historian, who remarked (upon what appeared to be a distinguishing characteristic) that Jews buried, rather than burned their dead. Even if the deceased willed cremation, his wishes must be ignored...Biblical law takes precedence over the instructions of the deceased. ”
1. This is completely irrelevant.
2. The first one is irrelevant; all it says is that you can't just leave someone lying around. You have to do SOMETHING with him. The second one is relevant, but all it talks about is the requirement "ki kovor sikberenu"; why can't that mitzvah be fulfilled after cremation? And what about burial at sea?
3. Again, this just means you can't leave him sticking out of the earth and claim you've done your duty. It doesn't seem to preclude cremation before burial, or even (perhaps) as an alternative to burial. The posuk "ki kovor sikberenu" means as opposed to leaving him hanging on the tree; but who says you can't cremate him instead?
4. This is a misqoute. The source doesn't say that.
None of this seems on point. Even the proof from YD 362:1 seems very shvach. It certainly doesn't seem to be enough to warrant the horror Jews have traditionally had for cremation. Got anything better?
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Jul 12, 2009 at 11:42 AM Anonymous Says:
“ The real tragedy is how these people lived their whole lives, without concern for torah and halachah, not that they died that way.
What difference does it make if a mechallail shabbos is buried kehalachah when his whole life was lived shelo kehalachah? Will the tahara change the fact that he lived with his wife as a nidah for 50 years? With the tachrichim get him into Heaven? With the plain pine box get him the place in olam habah he didn't earn by putting on tefillin every day? From what will the shomer (which is not needed in today's funeral homes) protect him? ”
We never know which one mitzvah, done by whom, will tip the scale and bring Moshiach. That includes a mitzvah arranged for only after one leaves this world.
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Jul 12, 2009 at 03:41 PM Milhouse Says:
“ I'm pointing out that the language that people use to post comments here is reflective of an attitude of anger and disdain. As a "BT," I understand the importance of the Kiruv effort and of the problems, especially with Reform, of intermarriage and of patrilineal descent. Nevertheless, we should be reflective and look at our motivations and our responses to issues with the non-Frum world. I was fortunate in that I met people who showed me a Judaism of chesed and emes---not a Judaism of hate, and of riots, and of denying me my heritage. If I had met the ones who would have simply dismissed me with "you're not Jewish anyway," I doubt that I would have found Torah.
If presented with a child from a Reform or Conservative background, why push him/her away because the family might not be Jewish? If he or she identifies as Jewish, good! Treat them all with respect and, if things go well and an opportunity to be mekarev them presents itself, there will be a time and a place to address the problems of background/heritage. ”
Why? If they're not Jewish why should we care whether they find Torah or not? Let them get as far from yiddishkeit as possible.
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Jul 12, 2009 at 02:35 PM awacs Says:
“ Can someone give the source for this prohibition, and the reason? In Chazal's day the Romans would be cremated because they didn't believe in techiyas hameisim, so anyone who wanted to be cremated was seen as a kofer. But suppose a person says that he absolutely believes in techiyas hameisim, but Hashem can of course rebuild a person from ashes just as easily as from a decomposed corpse or one that's been buried at sea and eaten by the fish, so he wants to be cremated; what exactly is wrong with that? A few years ago I went looking for the mokor, thinking it would be easy to find, but I came up empty. Im kabooloh hi nekabel, oober vee shtait geshriben? Is it like the requirement for a mechitza during davening, so obvious that nobody thought it necessary to write it down? ”
As of course the six million: nobody claims that they are not going to rise with the techiya just because (most of them) were cremated, right?
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Jul 12, 2009 at 06:33 PM Shua Says:
“ The real tragedy is how these people lived their whole lives, without concern for torah and halachah, not that they died that way.
What difference does it make if a mechallail shabbos is buried kehalachah when his whole life was lived shelo kehalachah? Will the tahara change the fact that he lived with his wife as a nidah for 50 years? With the tachrichim get him into Heaven? With the plain pine box get him the place in olam habah he didn't earn by putting on tefillin every day? From what will the shomer (which is not needed in today's funeral homes) protect him? ”
At comment #16 I mentioned that according the the Chazon Ish zt"l the validilty of your objections -- regarding people who lived their lives "shelo k'halacha" -- are dependent upon the person's status as either tinuk shenishba (which excuses them) or kofrim (which does not). In my opinion most of the leaders of Reformism and Conservativism are in the latter category while most of their followers are indeed tinukos shenishba...they were raised never having been taught anything about authentic Judaism and therefore will not be held accountable for their unhalachic lifestyles.
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Jul 13, 2009 at 01:06 AM Y Shlomo Says:
“ the hate that religious jews have for the secular will just cause a bigger gap.... lets not forget how small in number you religious jews are how many schools and orginazations are supported by your"yidishe shkutzim" as you call us.... Wake up its 2009 times changed the religion you think you practice isnt the way its is supposed to be have you not learned the reason why the ten commandments are half about god and half about your fellow man (doesnt say religious man) are near each other is because god wants you treat ppl with respect.... keep the hate coming its only so long that you will need us and i for one will help cause a jew helps a jew regardless of how he practices... ”
Dear wow
AS someone who grew up secular until age 28, and after going thru the yeshiva system and being part of the ultra-orthodox world.
1.- I do realize that you are a caring Jew, alevai more like you
2.- There is no hatred towards the secular jew, as him being a 'tinok shenishba' i.e. a Jew without true Torah education, whom by definition can't be hold accountable for not practicing what he does not understand and/or know. I still have many friends which are not religious, but I know they are caring jews
3.- We do have a big issue with the leaders that mislead jews away from the Torah and from G-d. If you would be as convinced that G-d gave the Torah to the jewish people as we are, you would also have them same issue against them.
4.- It may be indeed true that we lack in treating our fellow jews with enough respect, as a matter of fact, The talmud says that was the main reason as to why
the 2nd temple was destroyed, as well as why it has not been rebuilt.
5.- We don't consider you "yidishe shkutzim", we consider you "yidishe neshomes" just like us. And that includes even the leaders.
6.- It is true that a lot of secular jews do support yeshives and othodox institutions, and we do appreciate it.
7.- In the last 30 years or so, there has been a tremendous effort coming from the orthodox world to try to reach the secular jews (Ohr Someyach, Eish Hatorah, the Lubavitcher Rabbis all over the world, etc.)
All this effort stems from just one emotion: Love for the fellow jew, and the desire to enable him/her to make the most important decision in life (How to follow the laws of G-d) based on knowledge and not the lack of it.
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Jul 13, 2009 at 04:25 AM Anonymous Says:
“ 1. This is completely irrelevant.
2. The first one is irrelevant; all it says is that you can't just leave someone lying around. You have to do SOMETHING with him. The second one is relevant, but all it talks about is the requirement "ki kovor sikberenu"; why can't that mitzvah be fulfilled after cremation? And what about burial at sea?
3. Again, this just means you can't leave him sticking out of the earth and claim you've done your duty. It doesn't seem to preclude cremation before burial, or even (perhaps) as an alternative to burial. The posuk "ki kovor sikberenu" means as opposed to leaving him hanging on the tree; but who says you can't cremate him instead?
4. This is a misqoute. The source doesn't say that.
None of this seems on point. Even the proof from YD 362:1 seems very shvach. It certainly doesn't seem to be enough to warrant the horror Jews have traditionally had for cremation. Got anything better? ”
Controversial as usual, your questions reek with apikorsus.
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Jul 13, 2009 at 09:42 AM Shua Says:
“ 1. This is completely irrelevant.
2. The first one is irrelevant; all it says is that you can't just leave someone lying around. You have to do SOMETHING with him. The second one is relevant, but all it talks about is the requirement "ki kovor sikberenu"; why can't that mitzvah be fulfilled after cremation? And what about burial at sea?
3. Again, this just means you can't leave him sticking out of the earth and claim you've done your duty. It doesn't seem to preclude cremation before burial, or even (perhaps) as an alternative to burial. The posuk "ki kovor sikberenu" means as opposed to leaving him hanging on the tree; but who says you can't cremate him instead?
4. This is a misqoute. The source doesn't say that.
None of this seems on point. Even the proof from YD 362:1 seems very shvach. It certainly doesn't seem to be enough to warrant the horror Jews have traditionally had for cremation. Got anything better? ”
> Milhouse wrote: "The posuk 'ki kovor sikberenu' means as opposed to leaving him hanging on the tree; but who says you can't cremate him instead?
>> I don't understand your problem. The posuk ALSO says: "lo salin niv'laso" just before "ki kavor tikberenu" (by the way, it's tikberenu with a tof, not sikberenu with a sof). Anyway, "niv'laso" means "his corpse," and a corpse is a "body." Taken together the words of the posuk say: "don't let his BODY hang on the tree; but you shall surely bury HIM/IT": -- "him" or "it" grammatically refers back to his "BODY," i.e. bury the body! (for those needing a reference the posukim are found at Devarim 21:22-23)
Cremation DESTROYS the body and reduces it to ashes. If you cremate the corpse there is no "body" left to bury -- unless you want to argue somehow that the ashes are the "body" in a different form, but I think that's a stretch.
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Jul 13, 2009 at 04:35 PM Milhouse Says:
“ > Milhouse wrote: "The posuk 'ki kovor sikberenu' means as opposed to leaving him hanging on the tree; but who says you can't cremate him instead?
>> I don't understand your problem. The posuk ALSO says: "lo salin niv'laso" just before "ki kavor tikberenu" (by the way, it's tikberenu with a tof, not sikberenu with a sof). Anyway, "niv'laso" means "his corpse," and a corpse is a "body." Taken together the words of the posuk say: "don't let his BODY hang on the tree; but you shall surely bury HIM/IT": -- "him" or "it" grammatically refers back to his "BODY," i.e. bury the body! (for those needing a reference the posukim are found at Devarim 21:22-23)
Cremation DESTROYS the body and reduces it to ashes. If you cremate the corpse there is no "body" left to bury -- unless you want to argue somehow that the ashes are the "body" in a different form, but I think that's a stretch. ”
The posuk says you can't just leave him hanging around, you have to take care of him honourably. But who says burial is the only way it can be done? Maybe burial is just an example, and burning is just as good. The point here is clearly not the method but the disposal itself. It's not as if burial is inherently a more respectful way of dealing with a corpse than is cremation. In any case, you can bury the ashes; they're as much the body as the rotted remains will be after a few months.
If this is the whole mokor, it seems a very shvach basis for the absolute horror with which we've regarded cremation for the past 2000 years. There has to be something more to it than that, but I can't find anything.
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Jul 13, 2009 at 04:28 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Controversial as usual, your questions reek with apikorsus. ”
Says an anonymous coward who's probably the same person who's posted at least 10 heretical comments today alone. All my questions reflect is having actually looked up the alleged sources quoted, which the person who supplied them probably didn't do.
43
Jul 13, 2009 at 07:02 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Says an anonymous coward who's probably the same person who's posted at least 10 heretical comments today alone. All my questions reflect is having actually looked up the alleged sources quoted, which the person who supplied them probably didn't do. ”
> "All my questions reflect having actually looked up the alleged sources quoted, which the person who supplied them probably didn't do.”
>> "Alleged" sources? Sorry! They're the standard and well regarded sources for the halacha against cremation and I'm the one who provided them. Additionally, I consulted with a rav and talmid chachom (who learns in a local kollel) who reviewed your negative responses to each of the sources quoted. He shook his head and said: "This guy's just so wrong." I don't know you or your level of learning -- other than what you post in you comments on VIN -- so in this case I need to go with the rav over you.
44
Jul 14, 2009 at 09:53 AM Shua Says:
“ The posuk says you can't just leave him hanging around, you have to take care of him honourably. But who says burial is the only way it can be done? Maybe burial is just an example, and burning is just as good. The point here is clearly not the method but the disposal itself. It's not as if burial is inherently a more respectful way of dealing with a corpse than is cremation. In any case, you can bury the ashes; they're as much the body as the rotted remains will be after a few months.
If this is the whole mokor, it seems a very shvach basis for the absolute horror with which we've regarded cremation for the past 2000 years. There has to be something more to it than that, but I can't find anything. ”
>Milhouse wrote: “The posuk says you can't just leave him hanging around, you have to take care of him honourably."
>>Where are you getting this from? Cremating the body cannot be considered "honourable" because burning is always mentioned in the Gemara as a 'bizoyon hamais.' And any mutilation of the body -- a catagory into which Chazal placed cremation -- is called 'nivul hamais.' As such, poskim have always ruled that there is no basis for cremation in halacha. [see for example: Responsa Da'as Kohen of Rabbi Avraham Yitzhak Hakohen Kook, zt'l, p. 382]
>You also wrote that "the ashes [are] as much the body as the rotted remains will be after a few months."
>>Please! You know the halacha very well that the body must be allowed to decompose NATURALLY. Deliberate cremation is NOT a natural process at all. This is so obvious that it I cannot grasp your attempt to equate the two.
Bottom line: if you have so much difficulty with this halahca then by all means leave a will instructing that you be cremated...thereby forfeiting techyas ha'maisim. When you then appear before the Bais Din Shel Ma'alah, you can complain to the Ribbon Shel Olam: "But the sources are so shvach!"
45
Jul 14, 2009 at 06:51 PM Milhouse Says:
“ >Milhouse wrote: “The posuk says you can't just leave him hanging around, you have to take care of him honourably."
>>Where are you getting this from? Cremating the body cannot be considered "honourable" because burning is always mentioned in the Gemara as a 'bizoyon hamais.' And any mutilation of the body -- a catagory into which Chazal placed cremation -- is called 'nivul hamais.' As such, poskim have always ruled that there is no basis for cremation in halacha. [see for example: Responsa Da'as Kohen of Rabbi Avraham Yitzhak Hakohen Kook, zt'l, p. 382]
>You also wrote that "the ashes [are] as much the body as the rotted remains will be after a few months."
>>Please! You know the halacha very well that the body must be allowed to decompose NATURALLY. Deliberate cremation is NOT a natural process at all. This is so obvious that it I cannot grasp your attempt to equate the two.
Bottom line: if you have so much difficulty with this halahca then by all means leave a will instructing that you be cremated...thereby forfeiting techyas ha'maisim. When you then appear before the Bais Din Shel Ma'alah, you can complain to the Ribbon Shel Olam: "But the sources are so shvach!" ”
How is letting a body decompose more honourable than burning it? How is it less of a bizoyon or a nivul? "Chazal said so" isn't a reason.
Where does it say that a body must decompose naturally? What's so great about the natural decomposition process? What about tzadikim's bodies that don't decompose at all? Are they not fulfilling some halacha?
And what on earth makes you think that I want to be cremated ch"v? Or that, if I did want such a thing, it would affect my techiyas hameisim? THAT is what I want to know. What has cremation got to do with techiyas hameisim? Where is the mokor for THAT, and how does it explain the connection. As far as I can tell, the connection is purely an accident of history, and is tied to that history, and THAT is where the traditional attitude to cremation comes from; it has nothing to do with "ki kovor tikberenu" or "nivul hameis" at all.
46
Jul 14, 2009 at 06:45 PM Milhouse Says:
“ > "All my questions reflect having actually looked up the alleged sources quoted, which the person who supplied them probably didn't do.”
>> "Alleged" sources? Sorry! They're the standard and well regarded sources for the halacha against cremation and I'm the one who provided them. Additionally, I consulted with a rav and talmid chachom (who learns in a local kollel) who reviewed your negative responses to each of the sources quoted. He shook his head and said: "This guy's just so wrong." I don't know you or your level of learning -- other than what you post in you comments on VIN -- so in this case I need to go with the rav over you. ”
Yes, alleged sources. Because none of them were on point, as I pointed out in detail above. If you or your rov thinks "Mishnah, Avodah Zora 1.3", "Yorah Deah 348:3", or "Yerushalmi, Kesuvos 11:1" have ANYTHING to do with cremation, then you clearly haven't bothered to look them up, or you're just lying. Especially the misquote in point 4. The source simply does not say what you allegedly quoted from it. The only source that was even remotely on point was YD 362:1, and I've explained why it's shvach, and certainly not enough to warrant the traditional attitude to cremation.