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Jerusalem - Chardim Stabbed in Clash with Seculars |
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The police spokesman said the wounded told police that they were attacked by secular Jews at the Bar Ilan Junction but said he would have no further details until the men could be interviewed again on Saturday evening at the conclusion of the Jewish Sabbath.
The three were taken by a Magen David Adom team to Sha'arei Tzedek Hospital in Jerusalem, where they are listed in light to moderate condition.
Police have yet to determine the cause of the incident. They have launched an investigation.
For years there's been simmering resentment as the city has become increasingly dominated by deeply conservative Jews, and thousands of secular residents leave every year.
Relations between secular and religious Jews in the capital have been on edge since the mayor opened a parking lot on the Sabbath, sparking violent protests from the Eda Haredit ultra-Orthodox sect.
Secular residents say that their religious counterparts are trying to impose their beliefs in Jerusalem. They turned out in droves last November to elect a secular mayor, Nir Barkat, defeating his challenger from Jerusalem's ultra-Orthodox community.
More of today's headlines
“Jerusalem - Hundreds of ultra-Orthodox Jews again clashed with police in Jerusalem on Saturday afternoon during the latest Haredi demonstration against the Shabbat...”
Jerusalem - Protest over Shabbat Opening of Parking Lot Continue, But Intensity Diminishes
Instanbul, Turky - Dispute Between Sephardi and Ashkenazi Jews Over Burial Sites
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Read Comments (61) — Post Yours »
1
Jul 11, 2009 at 09:23 PM Anonymous Says:
stabed in the head !!!!!???? "mei yitten lei talmid chocam venshechnu neshichas chanmor!
2
Jul 11, 2009 at 09:23 PM Anonymous Says:
As the old saying predicts, violence begets violence, now we hear the story that on Shabbat morning two young haredim were attacked and stabbed by secular Jews, first I hope the police apprehend these tugs and will be prosecuted to the fullest extend, that said, this is what the problem with the protest, if the rabbis persist that the protest should go on, on way to bring down the level of violence, they need to make it clear, that only people who are older them sixty should attend, hopeful that would keep the violence to a minimum otherwise I am fearful that it will lead to bloodshed, and a schism which will take a long time to repair.
3
Jul 11, 2009 at 09:10 PM Anonymous Says:
This kind of behavior is no less acceptable coming from secular jews (assuming they were the instigators) than from the thugs at Edah Haredit who commit violence at the "shabbios demonstrations". The perpetrators in both cases should be prosecuted and punished severely. Jews should feel safe in yerushalayim and it is real chilul hashem that this type of violence by jews against jews is happening.
4
Jul 11, 2009 at 09:09 PM kingsley the chuchem Says:
Well! Well! While Hareidi Jews may light up garbage pails and allegedly attack an apparent malicious reporter with LIVE SPIT (both of which I disagree with ) in fighting for their Shabbos Veiws. Seculars use knives if indeed this story proves true. I remember (being myself in the fifties) visiting Israel during the intifada when a 30 year old European Holocaust survivors son , Tel Aviv Taxi Driver said to me-- 'If I had a choice to shoot a Chareidi Jew or Hamas Arab, I would kill the Parasite Chareidi!' My 88 year old survivor father was in the car and started to cry. THe Chareidi shouting , or throwing diapers or spitting, while revolting and despicalble should not be compared to the Knifing of Hareidi Jews. WHere are all the criticizers now aand will we see those blaming chareidis again in their similar views to the Taxi driver above!!!
5
Jul 11, 2009 at 09:01 PM The Litvak Yid Says:
Not surprising... There is a war going on between the Bnai Moshe Rabbenu and the Bnai Moshe Mendelsohn. Right now it is mostly cultural but as we see here it is becoming physical... May HKBH protect the righteous pious charedi!
6
Jul 11, 2009 at 08:57 PM Dag Says:
I was afraid this would happen
7
Jul 11, 2009 at 09:57 PM Anonymous Says:
The chareidim asked for trouble - now they got it. I don't feel bad for them.
8
Jul 11, 2009 at 10:12 PM Anonymous Says:
“ The chareidim asked for trouble - now they got it. I don't feel bad for them.
”
How do you know these chareidi bochurim were among those who attacked the police? Even if they were among the parking lot protestors, I'm not sure there is any reason to attack them as a quid pro quo.
9
Jul 11, 2009 at 11:04 PM NeveAliza Says:
Now let's use the Charedi approach:
"It was only a very small group of very extreme secularists, and they weren't sharp knives only butter knives, and they were just kid secularists not adults, and anyways you can’t believe the Charedi press they’ve always hated the secularists…”
10
Jul 11, 2009 at 10:33 PM joe Says:
In my opinion, the Charedi "protesters" mostly are people with a lot of time on their hands. These "protests" give them a something to do and a sense of purpose.
11
Jul 11, 2009 at 10:33 PM joe Says:
In my opinion, the Charedi "protesters" mostly are people with a lot of time on their hands. These "protests" give them a something to do and a sense of purpose.
12
Jul 11, 2009 at 11:35 PM Anonymous Says:
How dod you know the secular didn't start the fight and assaut the charid8 b0chyur9m
13
Jul 11, 2009 at 11:31 PM Anonymous Says:
“ In my opinion, the Charedi "protesters" mostly are people with a lot of time on their hands. These "protests" give them a something to do and a sense of purpose. ”
“ In my opinion, the Charedi "protesters" mostly are people with a lot of time on their hands. These "protests" give them a something to do and a sense of purpose. ”
I don't see any difference between you and Al Sharpton. He also defends the perps and blames the victims.
14
Jul 11, 2009 at 11:22 PM Zev Says:
“ Well! Well! While Hareidi Jews may light up garbage pails and allegedly attack an apparent malicious reporter with LIVE SPIT (both of which I disagree with ) in fighting for their Shabbos Veiws. Seculars use knives if indeed this story proves true. I remember (being myself in the fifties) visiting Israel during the intifada when a 30 year old European Holocaust survivors son , Tel Aviv Taxi Driver said to me-- 'If I had a choice to shoot a Chareidi Jew or Hamas Arab, I would kill the Parasite Chareidi!' My 88 year old survivor father was in the car and started to cry. THe Chareidi shouting , or throwing diapers or spitting, while revolting and despicalble should not be compared to the Knifing of Hareidi Jews. WHere are all the criticizers now aand will we see those blaming chareidis again in their similar views to the Taxi driver above!!! ”
Why don't you ask yourself WHY a Jew would say such a thing? Do US secular Jews express such hate toward US chareidim?
Being frum myself let me tell you, maybe its time to start looking in the mirror and ask ourselves : why is it that Israeli secular hate the chareidim so much?
An Israeli hard working man looks at a Chareidi and sees:
1) hates Israel
2) doesn’t serve in the army
3) uses politics to get money for their own yeshivahs
4) most sit and learn and contribute nothing to the economy
5) doesn’t pay taxes (because they don't work)
6) have many kids which they can't afford to support
7) throw rocks and dirty nappies
In short an ungrateful parasite living off the hard work of others. And then we are shocked at some taxi driver saying he hates chareidim more than an Arab. Maybe it’s time for us Torah Jews to fix up our own act.
Before you all jump on me as being “self hating” and “Charedi hater” let me tell you I am only explaining how we have come to the terrible situation today that a taxi driver from Tel Aviv (who probably works 10-12 hours a day to make ends meet) can harbour such resentment towards us. After looking at things from his point of view who can blame him?
15
Jul 12, 2009 at 12:22 AM Anonymous Says:
“ The chareidim asked for trouble - now they got it. I don't feel bad for them.
”
Yup, this is the phrase Hitler used to justify his persecution of Jews.
How nice to see so called jews to use the same stupid answer as Hitler on attacking some innocent charedim.
16
Jul 12, 2009 at 12:20 AM Milhouse Says:
“ Why don't you ask yourself WHY a Jew would say such a thing? Do US secular Jews express such hate toward US chareidim?
Being frum myself let me tell you, maybe its time to start looking in the mirror and ask ourselves : why is it that Israeli secular hate the chareidim so much?
An Israeli hard working man looks at a Chareidi and sees:
1) hates Israel
2) doesn’t serve in the army
3) uses politics to get money for their own yeshivahs
4) most sit and learn and contribute nothing to the economy
5) doesn’t pay taxes (because they don't work)
6) have many kids which they can't afford to support
7) throw rocks and dirty nappies
In short an ungrateful parasite living off the hard work of others. And then we are shocked at some taxi driver saying he hates chareidim more than an Arab. Maybe it’s time for us Torah Jews to fix up our own act.
Before you all jump on me as being “self hating” and “Charedi hater” let me tell you I am only explaining how we have come to the terrible situation today that a taxi driver from Tel Aviv (who probably works 10-12 hours a day to make ends meet) can harbour such resentment towards us. After looking at things from his point of view who can blame him?
”
If you believe all of that then you really are a hater, and I see no reason to believe your claim to be frum. And yes, in America they hate the Orthodox too.
17
Jul 12, 2009 at 12:17 AM Milhouse Says:
“ The chareidim asked for trouble - now they got it. I don't feel bad for them.
”
Antisemite. I won't feel sorry for you when you drop dead.
18
Jul 12, 2009 at 12:27 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Well! Well! While Hareidi Jews may light up garbage pails and allegedly attack an apparent malicious reporter with LIVE SPIT (both of which I disagree with ) in fighting for their Shabbos Veiws. Seculars use knives if indeed this story proves true. I remember (being myself in the fifties) visiting Israel during the intifada when a 30 year old European Holocaust survivors son , Tel Aviv Taxi Driver said to me-- 'If I had a choice to shoot a Chareidi Jew or Hamas Arab, I would kill the Parasite Chareidi!' My 88 year old survivor father was in the car and started to cry. THe Chareidi shouting , or throwing diapers or spitting, while revolting and despicalble should not be compared to the Knifing of Hareidi Jews. WHere are all the criticizers now aand will we see those blaming chareidis again in their similar views to the Taxi driver above!!! ”
And you're still a "chochom", you're trying to compare lighting up garbage pails in the street to ATTEMTED MURDER? comparing even rioting during a protest to stabbing in the head? are you drunk or something? how twisted can some peoples minds be?
This vicious and murderous attack on the haredim have no excuse.
19
Jul 12, 2009 at 12:35 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Why don't you ask yourself WHY a Jew would say such a thing? Do US secular Jews express such hate toward US chareidim?
Being frum myself let me tell you, maybe its time to start looking in the mirror and ask ourselves : why is it that Israeli secular hate the chareidim so much?
An Israeli hard working man looks at a Chareidi and sees:
1) hates Israel
2) doesn’t serve in the army
3) uses politics to get money for their own yeshivahs
4) most sit and learn and contribute nothing to the economy
5) doesn’t pay taxes (because they don't work)
6) have many kids which they can't afford to support
7) throw rocks and dirty nappies
In short an ungrateful parasite living off the hard work of others. And then we are shocked at some taxi driver saying he hates chareidim more than an Arab. Maybe it’s time for us Torah Jews to fix up our own act.
Before you all jump on me as being “self hating” and “Charedi hater” let me tell you I am only explaining how we have come to the terrible situation today that a taxi driver from Tel Aviv (who probably works 10-12 hours a day to make ends meet) can harbour such resentment towards us. After looking at things from his point of view who can blame him?
”
So bottom line you're justifying a brutal assault on civilians (in this case haredim) because they're not paying as much taxes as the evil taxi driver who would beat a haredi to death out of hate??
are you insane?
20
Jul 12, 2009 at 02:48 AM PMO Says:
I think the point is that violence begets violence. And as time passes, one side wants to "win" so the violence gets more intense.
I hope whomever did this ends up in prison for many, many years. However, I am surprised that nobody here takes a pause to think about where all of this is going. These are all yidden. One day it is rocks being thrown at police, the next day it is trash bins set on fire, and the next day it is yid stabbing yid with a knife in the street.
At this point, who gives a damn who is right or wrong! How the heck did we get here??? Everyone... BOTH SIDES... need to stop and think VERY carefully about where this is ultimately going? Are we going to start slaughtering each other in the streets like rabid dogs???
Until we are all willing to be honest with ourselves that chareidim are NOT always right... that SOME chareidim are just no better than the scum of the earth who wear the "right" clothing.... Until we are willing to admit that at least SOME of the time, seculars have valid complaints about frumkeit being "forced" on them... even when we disagree... this will only escalate. When will it become too much? When there are bodies in the street? Is THIS what we are supposed to do to each other? Is THIS why H" saved us from the camps? Is THIS why H" brought us to E"Y?
Once again we prove that we are our own worst enemy.
21
Jul 12, 2009 at 02:37 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Antisemite. I won't feel sorry for you when you drop dead. ”
Two wrongs don't make a right.
22
Jul 12, 2009 at 02:16 AM Anonymous Says:
#14 and #7 are absolutely correct. ok, maybe a knife is a little harsh. but these chareidim / low lives / chayos that have no care in the world to conduct themselves in a mentchliche manor. what these trouble makers need is a steel toe boot way up you know where - which they desperately needed when they were growing up.
23
Jul 12, 2009 at 02:13 AM Anonymous Says:
Let's see what will be the antisemites on this site kids or will get hurt by this chiloinim nazis if they will have the same view ?
24
Jul 12, 2009 at 01:32 AM Pinchas Says:
We need to stop arguing about theories etc. and open our eyes. We do not need to be right but SMART. We chareidim need to get our act together and behave as the torah demands us to. Ahavas Chinom to every single jew. mThis will increase kevod Shomayim and stop this great chillul Hashem.
25
Jul 12, 2009 at 01:15 AM Anonymous Says:
Where is the reporter that was spit at last week does she anything to say about stabbing? Or because non religious do it we understand the anger?
26
Jul 12, 2009 at 01:10 AM zev Says:
“ If you believe all of that then you really are a hater, and I see no reason to believe your claim to be frum. And yes, in America they hate the Orthodox too. ”
Evidently you didn't read what I wrote, (or deliberately misunderstanding it). I am describing a typical secular opinion of Chareidim (which the typical secular is ignorant of the many types of Chareidim. He is clueless about the difference between Yeshivish, Chassidic, Belz, Viznitz, Chabad, Breslov etc. To the typical secular Jew if one lunatic Chareidi Jew throws rocks on shabbos he assumes all (or most) do. If another Chareidi Jew leans in kolel all day while the wife has to go out and support the family he assumes all (or most)are like that.)
The question is: where do we go from here? How are frum Jews meant to counter all the ugly images portrayed on the Israeli TV? How are we to get a typical Israeli to conjure up a positive image at the word "Chareidi"? Or are we just meant to let this hatred fester and destroy any chance of them wanting to looking into Yiddishkeit as a good place to look for spirituality, instead of looking in East Asia? WHY is it that ex-soldures go to Asia to explore “spirituality” THERE while not even ENTERTAINING the thought to look into the Torah?
Why?
And is there anything we Chareidim can do to remedy the situation in a POSITIVE way? Or all we are capable of doing is throw rocks?
27
Jul 12, 2009 at 12:45 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Well! Well! While Hareidi Jews may light up garbage pails and allegedly attack an apparent malicious reporter with LIVE SPIT (both of which I disagree with ) in fighting for their Shabbos Veiws. Seculars use knives if indeed this story proves true. I remember (being myself in the fifties) visiting Israel during the intifada when a 30 year old European Holocaust survivors son , Tel Aviv Taxi Driver said to me-- 'If I had a choice to shoot a Chareidi Jew or Hamas Arab, I would kill the Parasite Chareidi!' My 88 year old survivor father was in the car and started to cry. THe Chareidi shouting , or throwing diapers or spitting, while revolting and despicalble should not be compared to the Knifing of Hareidi Jews. WHere are all the criticizers now aand will we see those blaming chareidis again in their similar views to the Taxi driver above!!! ”
How can so much hate, prejudice and non sense sit in one persons mind?
28
Jul 12, 2009 at 12:40 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Why don't you ask yourself WHY a Jew would say such a thing? Do US secular Jews express such hate toward US chareidim?
Being frum myself let me tell you, maybe its time to start looking in the mirror and ask ourselves : why is it that Israeli secular hate the chareidim so much?
An Israeli hard working man looks at a Chareidi and sees:
1) hates Israel
2) doesn’t serve in the army
3) uses politics to get money for their own yeshivahs
4) most sit and learn and contribute nothing to the economy
5) doesn’t pay taxes (because they don't work)
6) have many kids which they can't afford to support
7) throw rocks and dirty nappies
In short an ungrateful parasite living off the hard work of others. And then we are shocked at some taxi driver saying he hates chareidim more than an Arab. Maybe it’s time for us Torah Jews to fix up our own act.
Before you all jump on me as being “self hating” and “Charedi hater” let me tell you I am only explaining how we have come to the terrible situation today that a taxi driver from Tel Aviv (who probably works 10-12 hours a day to make ends meet) can harbour such resentment towards us. After looking at things from his point of view who can blame him?
”
First of all your facts are not true at all. and to let you know why Israeli seculars hate frum yidden more than american, because this the way they grew up with, this is what the rotten Zionist education is offering, and bringing up their youths with poison and unlimited hate to frum yidden.
29
Jul 12, 2009 at 02:18 AM kingsley the chuchem Says:
#18 Your totally inappropriate and untrue interpretation of my #4 posting is precisely what I tried to say that the Seculars have been programmed to hate Charedi jews and uninformed as u are by not carefully reading my response which is quite clear in noting the difference between the two types of attacks. Yet u attacked me because u can't read English or know the true facts about Charedim today as #14. U are both woefully inadequate in your comprehension or factual analytical; capabilities. That is the crux of the Chareidi Secular divide- woeful lack of facts or respect like the two of u for others or the truth!
30
Jul 12, 2009 at 01:38 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Yup, this is the phrase Hitler used to justify his persecution of Jews.
How nice to see so called jews to use the same stupid answer as Hitler on attacking some innocent charedim. ”
innocent??
31
Jul 12, 2009 at 08:26 AM Ralph Zucker Says:
“ Antisemite. I won't feel sorry for you when you drop dead. ”
Go get a job and and stop taking money from the government. Maybe then you'll stop fight the chilonim that feed you.
Since when does "hocheach tocheach es amisecha" mean to throw rocks, dirty diapers and burn dumpsters?????
32
Jul 12, 2009 at 09:22 AM Raphael Kaufman Says:
“ How can so much hate, prejudice and non sense sit in one persons mind? ”
He is criticizing the Chilonim, not the Chareidim. You obviously have a problem with reading comprehension.
33
Jul 12, 2009 at 09:34 AM Raphael Kaufman Says:
“ First of all your facts are not true at all. and to let you know why Israeli seculars hate frum yidden more than american, because this the way they grew up with, this is what the rotten Zionist education is offering, and bringing up their youths with poison and unlimited hate to frum yidden. ”
There is a good deal of truth in what you say. Americans of all types generally respect religion even if they do not practice themselves. Note that of all the developed countries in the world, the U.S. is, by far, the most religious. Israel, on the other hand, was founded, not simply as a "secular" state but as a anti-religious one. The founders actively sought to replace traditional Jewish religion with Zionist-Socialist idiology. The Chilonim aren't non-religious. They are anti-religious by design.
34
Jul 12, 2009 at 09:26 AM Raphael Kaufman Says:
“ innocent?? ”
What exactly happened isn't clear from the article but it does not appear that the three were simply walking along and got jumped. There appeared to be some kind of confrontation between the two groups. This certainly does not condone or justify a deadly attack.
35
Jul 12, 2009 at 10:44 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Yup, this is the phrase Hitler used to justify his persecution of Jews.
How nice to see so called jews to use the same stupid answer as Hitler on attacking some innocent charedim. ”
You know what, not only I cannot find this exact phrase, as you claim, but, I cannot find even any similar phrase, so stop make up blatant lies or show a citation. , i changed the phrase to "The Jews asked for trouble - now they got it" nothing you liar.
36
Jul 12, 2009 at 12:31 PM esther Says:
“ The chareidim asked for trouble - now they got it. I don't feel bad for them.
”
this is the power of chilul Hashem unfortunately.a small group of chareidim within a crowd of thousands acts badly and the entire frummer oilam is branded as violent.if only some of us could open our eyes and realize that these individuals do not represent EVERY chareidi.
37
Jul 12, 2009 at 12:19 PM Anonymous Says:
“ There is a good deal of truth in what you say. Americans of all types generally respect religion even if they do not practice themselves. Note that of all the developed countries in the world, the U.S. is, by far, the most religious. Israel, on the other hand, was founded, not simply as a "secular" state but as a anti-religious one. The founders actively sought to replace traditional Jewish religion with Zionist-Socialist idiology. The Chilonim aren't non-religious. They are anti-religious by design. ”
As usual you’re only half right, the reason is simple, in the states people are more tolerant, because we don’t have Christen or Jews going out to protest what one sect within its own religion is or not doing, except in the pro life-choice movements, were you have this same hatred, as with the protesters in Israel, who go out of their way, trying to foist on everybody their views, therefore you have hate against each other. Your proclamations are nothing more them baloney.
38
Jul 12, 2009 at 12:50 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Two wrongs don't make a right. ”
What was the second wrong? Should I feel sorry if this antisemite dies? What makes you think he's Jewish?
39
Jul 12, 2009 at 12:49 PM Milhouse Says:
“ I think the point is that violence begets violence. And as time passes, one side wants to "win" so the violence gets more intense.
I hope whomever did this ends up in prison for many, many years. However, I am surprised that nobody here takes a pause to think about where all of this is going. These are all yidden. One day it is rocks being thrown at police, the next day it is trash bins set on fire, and the next day it is yid stabbing yid with a knife in the street.
At this point, who gives a damn who is right or wrong! How the heck did we get here??? Everyone... BOTH SIDES... need to stop and think VERY carefully about where this is ultimately going? Are we going to start slaughtering each other in the streets like rabid dogs???
Until we are all willing to be honest with ourselves that chareidim are NOT always right... that SOME chareidim are just no better than the scum of the earth who wear the "right" clothing.... Until we are willing to admit that at least SOME of the time, seculars have valid complaints about frumkeit being "forced" on them... even when we disagree... this will only escalate. When will it become too much? When there are bodies in the street? Is THIS what we are supposed to do to each other? Is THIS why H" saved us from the camps? Is THIS why H" brought us to E"Y?
Once again we prove that we are our own worst enemy.
”
If your point is that violence begets violence, then what have you got against the charedim, even the stone throwers and arsonists? After all, they've been the victims of violence for over 60 years. Don't you think it should beget a little violence in return?
PS: If the name Pinchas Segalov means nothing to you, you should learn a little more about the history of this conflict before commenting on it again.
40
Jul 12, 2009 at 01:00 PM Milhouse Says:
“ We need to stop arguing about theories etc. and open our eyes. We do not need to be right but SMART. We chareidim need to get our act together and behave as the torah demands us to. Ahavas Chinom to every single jew. mThis will increase kevod Shomayim and stop this great chillul Hashem. ”
The great chilul hashem of getting STABBED?
41
Jul 12, 2009 at 01:00 PM Milhouse Says:
“ #14 and #7 are absolutely correct. ok, maybe a knife is a little harsh. but these chareidim / low lives / chayos that have no care in the world to conduct themselves in a mentchliche manor. what these trouble makers need is a steel toe boot way up you know where - which they desperately needed when they were growing up. ”
I see it's nazi play time. You are the low life and animal. You know nothing about the victims except that they are careful with mitzvos (charedim lidvar hashem), or about their assailants except that they are people raised with no Jewish values at all (that's what chilonim means), assuming that they're even Jewish and not Russian antisemites with a Jewish grandfather. And yet you think the victims were due for a beating, and you only cavil about the use of a knife. You are an antisemite, quite possibly a chiloni thug yourself, and who knows whether you're even Jewish.
42
Jul 12, 2009 at 01:12 PM Milhouse Says:
“ You know what, not only I cannot find this exact phrase, as you claim, but, I cannot find even any similar phrase, so stop make up blatant lies or show a citation. , i changed the phrase to "The Jews asked for trouble - now they got it" nothing you liar. ”
Are you claiming Hitler DIDN'T claim that the Jews were asking for trouble and got it, and nobody should feel bad for them? What do you think Mein Kampf is about?
43
Jul 12, 2009 at 01:10 PM Milhouse Says:
“ He is criticizing the Chilonim, not the Chareidim. You obviously have a problem with reading comprehension. ”
And I thought #27 was agreeing with #4, and wondering how such a creature as the taxi driver could exist.
44
Jul 12, 2009 at 01:10 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Go get a job and and stop taking money from the government. Maybe then you'll stop fight the chilonim that feed you.
Since when does "hocheach tocheach es amisecha" mean to throw rocks, dirty diapers and burn dumpsters????? ”
Better that then taking sides with antisemites who stab innocent people, or with mechalelei shabbos.
45
Jul 12, 2009 at 01:09 PM Milhouse Says:
“ innocent?? ”
Of course innocent. What do you think they're guilty of?
46
Jul 12, 2009 at 01:08 PM Milhouse Says:
“ How can so much hate, prejudice and non sense sit in one persons mind? ”
It is indeed to wonder at. #4 is right.
47
Jul 12, 2009 at 01:06 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Evidently you didn't read what I wrote, (or deliberately misunderstanding it). I am describing a typical secular opinion of Chareidim (which the typical secular is ignorant of the many types of Chareidim. He is clueless about the difference between Yeshivish, Chassidic, Belz, Viznitz, Chabad, Breslov etc. To the typical secular Jew if one lunatic Chareidi Jew throws rocks on shabbos he assumes all (or most) do. If another Chareidi Jew leans in kolel all day while the wife has to go out and support the family he assumes all (or most)are like that.)
The question is: where do we go from here? How are frum Jews meant to counter all the ugly images portrayed on the Israeli TV? How are we to get a typical Israeli to conjure up a positive image at the word "Chareidi"? Or are we just meant to let this hatred fester and destroy any chance of them wanting to looking into Yiddishkeit as a good place to look for spirituality, instead of looking in East Asia? WHY is it that ex-soldures go to Asia to explore “spirituality” THERE while not even ENTERTAINING the thought to look into the Torah?
Why?
And is there anything we Chareidim can do to remedy the situation in a POSITIVE way? Or all we are capable of doing is throw rocks?
”
Why don't you ask whether the Jews should have done something over the past 2000 years to prevent antisemitism? The goyim will always hate the Jews, and amei ho'oretz will always hate talmidei chachomim. R Akiva said that when he was an am ho'oretz he hated talmidei chachomim with a passion, and wanted to bite them like a donkey. Did he say this in order to recomment that the talmidei chachomim change their behaviour to "remedy the situation in a POSITIVE way"? No, he didn't. He said it in order to warn the T"ch how they were regarded, so they shouldn't have an idealised view of the amei ho'oretz. He learned Torah and became a "charedi parasite" and didn't regret it for a moment or do anything different from what his rebbes did.
48
Jul 12, 2009 at 05:21 PM Anonymous Says:
“ What was the second wrong? Should I feel sorry if this antisemite dies? What makes you think he's Jewish? ”
Oh, you meant that only if he's not jewish, he may drop dead. You didn't wish this on any jew, did you???
49
Jul 12, 2009 at 10:37 PM ZR Says:
“ Why don't you ask whether the Jews should have done something over the past 2000 years to prevent antisemitism? The goyim will always hate the Jews, and amei ho'oretz will always hate talmidei chachomim. R Akiva said that when he was an am ho'oretz he hated talmidei chachomim with a passion, and wanted to bite them like a donkey. Did he say this in order to recomment that the talmidei chachomim change their behaviour to "remedy the situation in a POSITIVE way"? No, he didn't. He said it in order to warn the T"ch how they were regarded, so they shouldn't have an idealised view of the amei ho'oretz. He learned Torah and became a "charedi parasite" and didn't regret it for a moment or do anything different from what his rebbes did.
”
You are always the contrarian. You don’t really believe our responsibility towards fellow Jews and their relationship with Hashem and Yiddishkeit is the same as our responsibility towards goim, do you?
Maybe it’s time to take more of a responsibility for our fellow yidden? And that includes trying to see things from their perspective, and asses if any of their grievances are valid.
What is your hashkafa that you believe we should write off our secular brothers as beyond hope and make no effort to reach out to them?
50
Jul 13, 2009 at 01:38 AM Milhouse Says:
“ Oh, you meant that only if he's not jewish, he may drop dead. You didn't wish this on any jew, did you??? ”
It makes no difference who he is. If he doesn't feel sorry when something happens to me, why should I feel sorry if something happens to him?
51
Jul 13, 2009 at 01:36 AM Milhouse Says:
“ You are always the contrarian. You don’t really believe our responsibility towards fellow Jews and their relationship with Hashem and Yiddishkeit is the same as our responsibility towards goim, do you?
Maybe it’s time to take more of a responsibility for our fellow yidden? And that includes trying to see things from their perspective, and asses if any of their grievances are valid.
What is your hashkafa that you believe we should write off our secular brothers as beyond hope and make no effort to reach out to them?
”
What was R Akiva's hashkafa towards his former fellow amei-ho'oretz? They were surely not beyond hope, since he hadn't been. And surely he would have helped any that wanted to make the same transition he did. But what he did *not* do was blame the talmidei chachomim for the fact that the amei ho'oretz hated them. He did not advocate any change at all in the way they behaved. He recognised that the hatred of chilonim for charedim, like the hatred of goyim for Jews, is a sin'oh she'eino teluyo badovor.
For the record, the Lubavitcher Rebbe taught that the proper way of outreach was to bring others close to the Torah, but not in any way to bring the Torah closer to them. We do not need to see anything from their perspective. We need to make them see things with ours. And we have no need to tailor our every move to make things easier for kiruv; not everything is about that.
52
Jul 13, 2009 at 01:24 AM A. Nuran Says:
“ Now let's use the Charedi approach:
"It was only a very small group of very extreme secularists, and they weren't sharp knives only butter knives, and they were just kid secularists not adults, and anyways you can’t believe the Charedi press they’ve always hated the secularists…” ”
Now, now. You're arguing with logic and expecting fair treatment from religious fanatics. That's just naive :-/
53
Jul 13, 2009 at 02:03 AM PMO Says:
“ If your point is that violence begets violence, then what have you got against the charedim, even the stone throwers and arsonists? After all, they've been the victims of violence for over 60 years. Don't you think it should beget a little violence in return?
PS: If the name Pinchas Segalov means nothing to you, you should learn a little more about the history of this conflict before commenting on it again.
”
Yes I am familiar. However, I can actually see the forest through the trees. Who cares when this started? Who cares how it started? Do you think H" cares who "started it"? It is how we DEAL with it that counts.
This kind of provocation not only makes no sense, but demonstrates exactly the kind of narrow mindedness that is escalating the problem. Bringing up an isolated incident from 50 years ago does nothing to help us today.
Again, I will ask.... what is the endgame here? At what point can we say someone "wins" and we can all be just be b'nei Yisroel again? How many people will need to be stabbed in the street? How many people will have to have rocks thrown at them? Everyone is so bent on fighting at this point, those watching from the sidelines (ie. 99% of yidden) no longer CARE what they are fighting about.... I know I don't. I honestly don't care. When one yid throws rocks at or beats up or (as in this case) stabs another yid, I will never... EVER give them any respect, nor will I do anything to validate their reasons - chareidi or secular. I would spit on them both the same, and immediately defend the other against violence.
I believe that we will, over time, bring yidden back to Torah. The Shoah generation could not keep up... for the most part, their children followed suit and so on. Maybe these yidden are not ready yet. Maybe this generation is not the one. However, what do we want THEIR children to say? "Some chareidi animal pelted my parents with rocks because they drove on shabbos... they are dogs" or would we rather them say "those chareidim... they help people... they helped get my brother off drugs... he got a job and he learns in their yeshiva a few nights a week".... or "when my dad died, we almost lost our apartment... we couldn't afford food... but some of the wives of the guys at yeshiva X came and they brought us food... and they helped my mom find a better job...." I know it is all a bit of a cliche... but you get the idea.
At some point, we have to decide which direction to go in. Working in kiruv here in FL, I am sure you can figure out which way I went. Maybe I'll never get the parents to become frum... maybe they think this is all a bit "antiquated"... but I can walk to shul shabbos morning picking up kids along the way and bringing them with me (even if their parents drive).... I can invite them into my home shabbos afternoon to play with my kids in a shomer shabbos environment... I can have non-frum families to my home on shabbos and talk and learn with them. I can help host a melave malka at the shul with pizza, games and Torah... I can help get money to send kids to orthodox yeshiva day schools (even when parents are resistant). So why would I put my efforts into pushing yidden away?
Imagine if instead of protesting and pushing yidden further away, those same 5000 chareidim just walked over and shook the hand of a secular yid and said "wow... you have such beautiful children. Would you like to join us for shabbos lunch?" They may get more "no" than "yes", but a little persistence, a few handshakes and a few smiles can go a LONG way. Stop judging everyone and start TALKING.
It is the 3 weeks. Spend a little time thinking about where things are going, and whether this is REALLY going to achieve any goals. Start with one man. Pick one man on the street, and just introduce yourself and shake his hand. Don't judge him.... just shake his hand and smile because he is a yid. The next time you see him... make a point to do it again.... and again.... maybe buy him a coffee with a little talk about something you read here.
Groups like JEP and NCSY go out and fight for every single neshoma with everything they've got. The toughest battle, from my own experience, is overcoming the idea that frum people are just crazy rock-throwing fanatics who hate Jews who aren't like them. That is truly the thing parents tell me scares them. They are not afraid of Torah... they are afraid that being a "frum yid" is like joining a cult of fanatics and they don't want that for their children.
So the next time you want to cheer on those rock-throwing, violent criminals... just realize that you just made it THAT much harder to bring another kid to a life of Torah.
We are all b'nei yisroel and I love you all... even Milhouse. :-)
54
Jul 13, 2009 at 07:56 AM ZR Says:
“ Yes I am familiar. However, I can actually see the forest through the trees. Who cares when this started? Who cares how it started? Do you think H" cares who "started it"? It is how we DEAL with it that counts.
This kind of provocation not only makes no sense, but demonstrates exactly the kind of narrow mindedness that is escalating the problem. Bringing up an isolated incident from 50 years ago does nothing to help us today.
Again, I will ask.... what is the endgame here? At what point can we say someone "wins" and we can all be just be b'nei Yisroel again? How many people will need to be stabbed in the street? How many people will have to have rocks thrown at them? Everyone is so bent on fighting at this point, those watching from the sidelines (ie. 99% of yidden) no longer CARE what they are fighting about.... I know I don't. I honestly don't care. When one yid throws rocks at or beats up or (as in this case) stabs another yid, I will never... EVER give them any respect, nor will I do anything to validate their reasons - chareidi or secular. I would spit on them both the same, and immediately defend the other against violence.
I believe that we will, over time, bring yidden back to Torah. The Shoah generation could not keep up... for the most part, their children followed suit and so on. Maybe these yidden are not ready yet. Maybe this generation is not the one. However, what do we want THEIR children to say? "Some chareidi animal pelted my parents with rocks because they drove on shabbos... they are dogs" or would we rather them say "those chareidim... they help people... they helped get my brother off drugs... he got a job and he learns in their yeshiva a few nights a week".... or "when my dad died, we almost lost our apartment... we couldn't afford food... but some of the wives of the guys at yeshiva X came and they brought us food... and they helped my mom find a better job...." I know it is all a bit of a cliche... but you get the idea.
At some point, we have to decide which direction to go in. Working in kiruv here in FL, I am sure you can figure out which way I went. Maybe I'll never get the parents to become frum... maybe they think this is all a bit "antiquated"... but I can walk to shul shabbos morning picking up kids along the way and bringing them with me (even if their parents drive).... I can invite them into my home shabbos afternoon to play with my kids in a shomer shabbos environment... I can have non-frum families to my home on shabbos and talk and learn with them. I can help host a melave malka at the shul with pizza, games and Torah... I can help get money to send kids to orthodox yeshiva day schools (even when parents are resistant). So why would I put my efforts into pushing yidden away?
Imagine if instead of protesting and pushing yidden further away, those same 5000 chareidim just walked over and shook the hand of a secular yid and said "wow... you have such beautiful children. Would you like to join us for shabbos lunch?" They may get more "no" than "yes", but a little persistence, a few handshakes and a few smiles can go a LONG way. Stop judging everyone and start TALKING.
It is the 3 weeks. Spend a little time thinking about where things are going, and whether this is REALLY going to achieve any goals. Start with one man. Pick one man on the street, and just introduce yourself and shake his hand. Don't judge him.... just shake his hand and smile because he is a yid. The next time you see him... make a point to do it again.... and again.... maybe buy him a coffee with a little talk about something you read here.
Groups like JEP and NCSY go out and fight for every single neshoma with everything they've got. The toughest battle, from my own experience, is overcoming the idea that frum people are just crazy rock-throwing fanatics who hate Jews who aren't like them. That is truly the thing parents tell me scares them. They are not afraid of Torah... they are afraid that being a "frum yid" is like joining a cult of fanatics and they don't want that for their children.
So the next time you want to cheer on those rock-throwing, violent criminals... just realize that you just made it THAT much harder to bring another kid to a life of Torah.
We are all b'nei yisroel and I love you all... even Milhouse. :-)
”
I love your passion PMO! Keep it up!
55
Jul 13, 2009 at 08:11 AM ZR Says:
“ What was R Akiva's hashkafa towards his former fellow amei-ho'oretz? They were surely not beyond hope, since he hadn't been. And surely he would have helped any that wanted to make the same transition he did. But what he did *not* do was blame the talmidei chachomim for the fact that the amei ho'oretz hated them. He did not advocate any change at all in the way they behaved. He recognised that the hatred of chilonim for charedim, like the hatred of goyim for Jews, is a sin'oh she'eino teluyo badovor.
For the record, the Lubavitcher Rebbe taught that the proper way of outreach was to bring others close to the Torah, but not in any way to bring the Torah closer to them. We do not need to see anything from their perspective. We need to make them see things with ours. And we have no need to tailor our every move to make things easier for kiruv; not everything is about that. ”
"And we have no need to tailor our every move to make things easier for kiruv"
What is "Chillul Hashem" if not avoiding actions that can potentially turn people off from Hashem and Torah? Why is "Chillul Hashem" such a terrible sin that even Yom Kippur isn't m'chaper? Why is it worse than violating an actual d'orayso that Yom Kippur IS m'chaper?
The whole rational behind "chillul Hashem" and "kiddush Hashem" is that a frum Yid is meant to be the example of what a person fulfilling his Divine mission should look like. The ultimate human being. A person should look at a frum Jew and think to himself “now THIS is what I call a pious man. THIS is what a man doing G-d’s will looks like.”
According to you, why (should the Torah) bother with “Kiddush Hashem” and “Chillul Hashem”? Goim will hate Yidden in any case. Amei Haaretz will hate talmidei chachomim in any case. ???
56
Jul 13, 2009 at 04:13 PM Milhouse Says:
“ "And we have no need to tailor our every move to make things easier for kiruv"
What is "Chillul Hashem" if not avoiding actions that can potentially turn people off from Hashem and Torah? Why is "Chillul Hashem" such a terrible sin that even Yom Kippur isn't m'chaper? Why is it worse than violating an actual d'orayso that Yom Kippur IS m'chaper?
The whole rational behind "chillul Hashem" and "kiddush Hashem" is that a frum Yid is meant to be the example of what a person fulfilling his Divine mission should look like. The ultimate human being. A person should look at a frum Jew and think to himself “now THIS is what I call a pious man. THIS is what a man doing G-d’s will looks like.”
According to you, why (should the Torah) bother with “Kiddush Hashem” and “Chillul Hashem”? Goim will hate Yidden in any case. Amei Haaretz will hate talmidei chachomim in any case. ???
”
Chilul Hashem is any public defiance of Hashem or the Torah. Such as a supposedly Jewish city breaking Shabbos in its official capacity. Or a police officer lighting up in front of a charedi crowd, just to make the point that he's breaking Shabbos and not being struck by lightning. Kidush Hashem is not allowing that to go by without a strong reaction and protest. It has nothing to do with kiruv.
57
Jul 13, 2009 at 04:20 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Yes I am familiar. However, I can actually see the forest through the trees. Who cares when this started? Who cares how it started? Do you think H" cares who "started it"? It is how we DEAL with it that counts.
This kind of provocation not only makes no sense, but demonstrates exactly the kind of narrow mindedness that is escalating the problem. Bringing up an isolated incident from 50 years ago does nothing to help us today.
Again, I will ask.... what is the endgame here? At what point can we say someone "wins" and we can all be just be b'nei Yisroel again? How many people will need to be stabbed in the street? How many people will have to have rocks thrown at them? Everyone is so bent on fighting at this point, those watching from the sidelines (ie. 99% of yidden) no longer CARE what they are fighting about.... I know I don't. I honestly don't care. When one yid throws rocks at or beats up or (as in this case) stabs another yid, I will never... EVER give them any respect, nor will I do anything to validate their reasons - chareidi or secular. I would spit on them both the same, and immediately defend the other against violence.
I believe that we will, over time, bring yidden back to Torah. The Shoah generation could not keep up... for the most part, their children followed suit and so on. Maybe these yidden are not ready yet. Maybe this generation is not the one. However, what do we want THEIR children to say? "Some chareidi animal pelted my parents with rocks because they drove on shabbos... they are dogs" or would we rather them say "those chareidim... they help people... they helped get my brother off drugs... he got a job and he learns in their yeshiva a few nights a week".... or "when my dad died, we almost lost our apartment... we couldn't afford food... but some of the wives of the guys at yeshiva X came and they brought us food... and they helped my mom find a better job...." I know it is all a bit of a cliche... but you get the idea.
At some point, we have to decide which direction to go in. Working in kiruv here in FL, I am sure you can figure out which way I went. Maybe I'll never get the parents to become frum... maybe they think this is all a bit "antiquated"... but I can walk to shul shabbos morning picking up kids along the way and bringing them with me (even if their parents drive).... I can invite them into my home shabbos afternoon to play with my kids in a shomer shabbos environment... I can have non-frum families to my home on shabbos and talk and learn with them. I can help host a melave malka at the shul with pizza, games and Torah... I can help get money to send kids to orthodox yeshiva day schools (even when parents are resistant). So why would I put my efforts into pushing yidden away?
Imagine if instead of protesting and pushing yidden further away, those same 5000 chareidim just walked over and shook the hand of a secular yid and said "wow... you have such beautiful children. Would you like to join us for shabbos lunch?" They may get more "no" than "yes", but a little persistence, a few handshakes and a few smiles can go a LONG way. Stop judging everyone and start TALKING.
It is the 3 weeks. Spend a little time thinking about where things are going, and whether this is REALLY going to achieve any goals. Start with one man. Pick one man on the street, and just introduce yourself and shake his hand. Don't judge him.... just shake his hand and smile because he is a yid. The next time you see him... make a point to do it again.... and again.... maybe buy him a coffee with a little talk about something you read here.
Groups like JEP and NCSY go out and fight for every single neshoma with everything they've got. The toughest battle, from my own experience, is overcoming the idea that frum people are just crazy rock-throwing fanatics who hate Jews who aren't like them. That is truly the thing parents tell me scares them. They are not afraid of Torah... they are afraid that being a "frum yid" is like joining a cult of fanatics and they don't want that for their children.
So the next time you want to cheer on those rock-throwing, violent criminals... just realize that you just made it THAT much harder to bring another kid to a life of Torah.
We are all b'nei yisroel and I love you all... even Milhouse. :-)
”
So here we are, talking about some shomrei torah umitzvos that got stabbed by vile people, and your reaction is not to blame the perpetrators but other charedim who engage in violence. "Violence begets violence", you say. But when I point out that the chilonim are the ones whose violence begets everything, suddenly it's "Who cares when this started?". If you don't care when it started, and want to condemn all violence, then this thread is NOT an appropriate place to talk about rock-throwers. If that's your attitude then you should have been full of solicitude for the victims of this stabbing, and not brought up other unrelated incidents. One or the other. You can't have it both ways.
58
Jul 13, 2009 at 05:07 PM ZR Says:
“ Chilul Hashem is any public defiance of Hashem or the Torah. Such as a supposedly Jewish city breaking Shabbos in its official capacity. Or a police officer lighting up in front of a charedi crowd, just to make the point that he's breaking Shabbos and not being struck by lightning. Kidush Hashem is not allowing that to go by without a strong reaction and protest. It has nothing to do with kiruv. ”
You haven’t explained WHY Chillul Hashem is one of the worst sins, so much so that Yom Kippur is not m'chaper. Is it not because by your chillul Hashem you push people away from Hashem and his Torah? And that is the OPPOSITE impression of what’s meant to be when someone sees a frum Jew?
Hashem wants all people to follow the Torah. If a frum Jew by his actions cause people to be disgusted with the Torah, then that is a violation of his very reason d’etre.
Forget the Shabbos protests for a second. What about not going to the army? What about not contributing to the economy? Not paying taxes? (this might not be 100% accurate but it is what is perceived by the secular and therefore their perception constitutes vital ingredient of whether a Chillul Hashem has occurred or not.)
You haven’t explained WHY Chillul Hashem is one of the worst sins, so much so that Yom Kippur is not m'chaper. Is it not because by your chillul Hashem you push people away from Hashem and his Torah? And that is the OPPOSITE impression of what’s meant to be when someone sees a frum Jew?
Hashem wants all people to follow the Torah. If a frum Jew by his actions cause people to be disgusted with the Torah, then that is a violation of his very reason d’etre.
Forget the Shabbos protests for a second. What about shoving and abusing women on a bus? Not going to the army? Not contributing to the economy? Not paying taxes? Etc. (this might not all be 100% accurate in reality but it is what is perceived by the secular and therefore their perception constitutes vital ingredient of whether a Chillul Hashem has occurred or not.)
So yes, we DO have to conduct our lives conscious of how our actions are perceived in the eyes of others.
59
Jul 14, 2009 at 02:17 AM PMO Says:
“ So here we are, talking about some shomrei torah umitzvos that got stabbed by vile people, and your reaction is not to blame the perpetrators but other charedim who engage in violence. "Violence begets violence", you say. But when I point out that the chilonim are the ones whose violence begets everything, suddenly it's "Who cares when this started?". If you don't care when it started, and want to condemn all violence, then this thread is NOT an appropriate place to talk about rock-throwers. If that's your attitude then you should have been full of solicitude for the victims of this stabbing, and not brought up other unrelated incidents. One or the other. You can't have it both ways. ”
You still don't get it Milhouse. You are so deep into your passionate hatred that you can't see the forest through the trees. That's what sinas chinam does to you. That is what we've been warned about by gedolim since day one.
I made my points because any violence against a yid (let alone when the aggressor is another yid!) pains me.... and should pain every yid. I was very clear in my earlier post that I hope these criminals are locked up for a good long time over this.
However, this horrible act against chareidim is just another page in a LONG book.
Sinas chinam has to end somewhere. Someone has to stand up and say enough is enough! Is this what parents and grandparents survived the shoah for? To watch us destroy ourselves? Who needs Nazis... or Hamas.... there are plenty of secular yidden and chareidim perfectly willing to shove the other into an oven!
The whole thing makes me sick, and to see people here make such hateful comments instead of looking at themselves first, makes me even more sick.
At the end of the day Milhouse... I know that there are baalei teshuvoh out there who have since married and started their own families because the groups I have worked with (NCSY, JEP, etc) never use Torah as a weapon or a reason to hate. What have you done? I hate to think about how many yidden have you personally pushed away from Torah with your attitude.
60
Jul 14, 2009 at 06:28 PM Milhouse Says:
“ You still don't get it Milhouse. You are so deep into your passionate hatred that you can't see the forest through the trees. That's what sinas chinam does to you. That is what we've been warned about by gedolim since day one.
I made my points because any violence against a yid (let alone when the aggressor is another yid!) pains me.... and should pain every yid. I was very clear in my earlier post that I hope these criminals are locked up for a good long time over this.
However, this horrible act against chareidim is just another page in a LONG book.
Sinas chinam has to end somewhere. Someone has to stand up and say enough is enough! Is this what parents and grandparents survived the shoah for? To watch us destroy ourselves? Who needs Nazis... or Hamas.... there are plenty of secular yidden and chareidim perfectly willing to shove the other into an oven!
The whole thing makes me sick, and to see people here make such hateful comments instead of looking at themselves first, makes me even more sick.
At the end of the day Milhouse... I know that there are baalei teshuvoh out there who have since married and started their own families because the groups I have worked with (NCSY, JEP, etc) never use Torah as a weapon or a reason to hate. What have you done? I hate to think about how many yidden have you personally pushed away from Torah with your attitude. ”
No, you don't get it. We are talking about a terrible assault on some frum Jews. There are three possible places you could have put the blame:
1. On the ones who actually did it, or on chiloni society generally.
2. On the cycle of violence, and the chilonim who initiated it and built it up until charedim started to respond.
3. On the charedim who respond to chiloni violence, and thus supposedly impel other chilonim to respond with even more violence.
Why is it that you chose 3?
61
Jul 14, 2009 at 06:25 PM Milhouse Says:
“ You haven’t explained WHY Chillul Hashem is one of the worst sins, so much so that Yom Kippur is not m'chaper. Is it not because by your chillul Hashem you push people away from Hashem and his Torah? And that is the OPPOSITE impression of what’s meant to be when someone sees a frum Jew?
Hashem wants all people to follow the Torah. If a frum Jew by his actions cause people to be disgusted with the Torah, then that is a violation of his very reason d’etre.
Forget the Shabbos protests for a second. What about not going to the army? What about not contributing to the economy? Not paying taxes? (this might not be 100% accurate but it is what is perceived by the secular and therefore their perception constitutes vital ingredient of whether a Chillul Hashem has occurred or not.)
You haven’t explained WHY Chillul Hashem is one of the worst sins, so much so that Yom Kippur is not m'chaper. Is it not because by your chillul Hashem you push people away from Hashem and his Torah? And that is the OPPOSITE impression of what’s meant to be when someone sees a frum Jew?
Hashem wants all people to follow the Torah. If a frum Jew by his actions cause people to be disgusted with the Torah, then that is a violation of his very reason d’etre.
Forget the Shabbos protests for a second. What about shoving and abusing women on a bus? Not going to the army? Not contributing to the economy? Not paying taxes? Etc. (this might not all be 100% accurate in reality but it is what is perceived by the secular and therefore their perception constitutes vital ingredient of whether a Chillul Hashem has occurred or not.)
So yes, we DO have to conduct our lives conscious of how our actions are perceived in the eyes of others.
”
No, ZR, that is not the reason. The problem here is that you have a wrong definition of kiddush and chilul hashem. Let's take some prime examples of chilul hashem: Zimri ben Salu; the guy who sacrificed a pig in the Modi'in market; the marannos. Do they fit your model? Not particularly. And yet THAT is the canonical example of chilul hashem. So you need a new model.
62
Jul 15, 2009 at 12:48 AM PMO Says:
“ No, you don't get it. We are talking about a terrible assault on some frum Jews. There are three possible places you could have put the blame:
1. On the ones who actually did it, or on chiloni society generally.
2. On the cycle of violence, and the chilonim who initiated it and built it up until charedim started to respond.
3. On the charedim who respond to chiloni violence, and thus supposedly impel other chilonim to respond with even more violence.
Why is it that you chose 3?
”
I don't choose any of these. You assume from the beginning that all of the violence is a direct result of chilonim committing violent acts against chareidim and that everything stems from there. I assume no such thing. A single act of violence 50 years ago has no bearing today. If you are clinging to that as an excuse for your sinas chinam, I feel sorry for you that you've had to carry that kind of hatred around for so long.
I do not assume that all chilonim hate chareidim and want to harm us all... although we know that SOME do. At the same time, I do not assume that all chareidim are not violent pigs... although we know that SOME are.
Anyone who acts purely to fan the flames of sinas chinam on either side is a roshoh. And there are sadly plenty of them on each side.
Until these thugs on both sides are brought under control, the disgusting, hate-driven violence will continue. It does not even matter anymore who stabs who or who throws rocks at who. The point is that yidden have turned on each other. That is the saddest part of the whole story.