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Jerusalem - ‘Starving mother’ Case Part of Campaign of Persecution of Orthodox |
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Last weeks charedi riots in Jerusalm
Once the story broke out, I was approached by many media outlets requesting a response, yet in the first few hours I found it difficult to elicit accurate information about the affair, even though I knew about the mother’s arrest since the beginning of the week. When the pressure grew from more and more media outlets, I found it difficult to defend the riots, but I was careful not to condemn them either. I felt that the shattered mother and her pained home are an interest that is no less important than the public relations of the entire Orthodox community.
Slowly I discovered a picture taken from dark worlds that raised incisive questions vis-à-vis most government authorities involved in the affair. In this framework I will not deal with the innocence of the miserable mother, but even if it is proven that she suffers from the Munchausen Syndrome, the question that emerges is why did media outlets choose to present a sick person as a criminal?
Those familiar with the syndrome stress that it is an obsessive desire to help someone under one’s care to the point of jeopardizing him, so that both the caretaker and person under care receive attention. Notably, in most cases we see the caretaker focus on one person, so that there is no risk to the other children, and the detained woman is indeed known as a model mother to her four other children. That is, we are not dealing with a ticking bomb or with a violent woman holding a submachine gun and firing in all directions.
In fact, we are dealing with someone who may be “dangerous” to a specific person, and therefore logic dictates that we remove the danger. It is therefore natural to limit the mother’s access to her son’s hospital bed. Here too we see a difficult question emerging – how did the Hadassah hospital allow such “danger” to access the sensitive oncological ward in the past six months?
Welfare services blamed
I must admit that the voices emerging from the ultra-Orthodox camp point the finger at Jerusalem’s welfare services over their involvement in the affair. In conversations with elements within the haredi camp I discovered that they believe we are seeing a false arrest that is completely needless; they say it will ruin a longtime effort by the regional welfare office, which along with the rabbis managed to create trust vis-à-vis the communities residing in the Mea Shearim area. A very senior welfare official told me that to his regret, the latest developments will take us back 20 years.
The corridors of medical institutions in Israel are filled with haredi community members who are regularly invited to assist the general population, but suddenly they are being looked down upon? Why weren’t they approached to handle the problem?
Yet the most terrible damage caused in the wake of this miserable arrest is that it will prompt many Orthodox mothers to refrain from heading to hospital in times of emergency. They will prefer to have their child treated by a haredi paramedic, instead of going to a medical facility accompanied by two lawyers.
In a touching conversation held by Police Commander Aharon Franco with the elders and dignitaries of the Orthodox Eda Haredit sect, he too expressed his puzzlement over the arrest, based on his familiarity with the circumstances. However, all of this did not prevent the Prosecutor’s Office from initially objecting to the mother’s release. So you still claim there is no anti-haredi persecution in Israel?
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Read Comments (59) — Post Yours »
1
Jul 19, 2009 at 10:38 AM Anonymous Says:
Great article. unfortunately the Israeli authorities are very prejudice against the frum - ultra orthodox.
Let's hope things improve, and may we see the geula soon.
2
Jul 19, 2009 at 10:47 AM Anonymous Says:
BH. Finally someone stands up for the truth.
Where are all this Charedi on this forum?
3
Jul 19, 2009 at 10:51 AM Pashuteh Yid Says:
Let’s assume this woman was black, and you read in the paper that a black mother was taped on video starving her child. Every single one of us here would be screaming to lock her up and throw away the key. Which normal society would have done any different?
Why the double standard? Do black mothers deserve any less rights than religious Jewish mothers?
In addition, as others pointed out, this is only the beginning of the legal process, and if she is found insane, she will certainly be treated in a different manner and in an appropriate facility. The major emergency was that a child was about to die because of this woman, and taking her away where she could do no more damage was the first priority, the same as any other civilized country would have done.
The long term decisions about what punishment and/or treatments she needs will be decided by the courts and psychiatrists. That is not the job of the police who were only doing their job of saving a helpless victim, the 3 yr old child.
4
Jul 19, 2009 at 11:02 AM Avigdor Says:
You can keep fooling yourselves by denying what she did - but everyone else knows the truth and loses respect for the frum when this happens
5
Jul 19, 2009 at 11:01 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Let’s assume this woman was black, and you read in the paper that a black mother was taped on video starving her child. Every single one of us here would be screaming to lock her up and throw away the key. Which normal society would have done any different?
Why the double standard? Do black mothers deserve any less rights than religious Jewish mothers?
In addition, as others pointed out, this is only the beginning of the legal process, and if she is found insane, she will certainly be treated in a different manner and in an appropriate facility. The major emergency was that a child was about to die because of this woman, and taking her away where she could do no more damage was the first priority, the same as any other civilized country would have done.
The long term decisions about what punishment and/or treatments she needs will be decided by the courts and psychiatrists. That is not the job of the police who were only doing their job of saving a helpless victim, the 3 yr old child. ”
Again you are believing everything you read. The media is not a reliable source. You see they did not publicize the video. You and me do not know the truth!!!
6
Jul 19, 2009 at 11:00 AM Anonymous Says:
btw dudi zilbershlag is a chareidi journalist he's the former editor of the frum bakehila newspaper
7
Jul 19, 2009 at 10:59 AM Meir Says:
As guess the chareidim have learned from Al Sharpton - just blame the police
8
Jul 19, 2009 at 11:06 AM ShatzMatz Says:
Oh come off it! You wonder why the municipal authorities dont like the chareidi? Maybe it's because the charadeis did not like them first. Why should the municipal authorities feel any love towards the chareidi, when they know that whatever they do they will be despised and vilified by the chareidi community? Or how about the shabbos riots that have gone on in the past few weeks? I am sure they went far in engendering anti-chareidi sentiment.
Besides all that, don't go saying that the case with the mother should have been handled differently. In any civilized country a person like this would be arrested. The police and welfare authorities cannot be expected to make a diagnosis and impose treatment without the full force of the criminal justice system. What could the welfare authorities possibly have done once they realized that the mother was killing her child? Do you think if they would have suggested that she get therapy that she would have done it. Perhaps they should have removed the child from the home. In that case you would of had the same riots. The mother would not have cooperated with authorities and the authorities would have had to return the child to the home. Even now the when the mother was released on the condition that she receives phsyciatric she is playing games. At least now the matter is public and cant be whitewashed anymore. Now perhaps the mother might receive treatment and the child may be rescued. if they would have tried to handle it diplomatically we might very well have had a dead child on our hands with the family blaming the zioninst doctors for killing him.
9
Jul 19, 2009 at 11:04 AM Thomas Lowinger Says:
If somebody molests a child, is he a criminal or just mentally ill ? If the mother was hurting the child she committed a crime. After her arrest she can get help for her mental illness. This is the way seculars are treated.
10
Jul 19, 2009 at 11:10 AM chaim Says:
First, I will deal with your article seriously. The Israeli government, as well as many, how should I put this, secular-minded frum individuals, are dealing with too many of these issues for far too long. The government has tried not to involve itself in many of the affairs of the, how should I put it, non-trusting Yeshivish world. Stories like Chen and the "Taliban" woman permeate the headlines. The government knows that these individuals have many followers. It was their hope that by going after the main individual they would silence the critics and the followers will merely find new ways to discipline their children. However, no one looks to see that they have dealt lightly in this regard. Furthermore, you make light of the thousands upon thousands of dollars that the government, that this woman wishes to overthrow, has spent in trying to find the "problem" with the child. You also failed to address the fact that their investigation has found that 2 other children have also been abused here. It is not that the woman is being made a vilian. It is the fact that she won't take advantage of the resources available to her that make her a vilian. You, who make it sound like your an askan, fail to tell people that she was allowed to leave if she underwent phsycological testing. She has constantly refused. Today's delay is just another of her tricks. You say the welfare office is to blame but you don't take any responsibility, as an askan, for lying to the courts and promising that she will attend. I have many more proofs you are a nobody and that you are purposely misshaping the story, but, if I was taking you seriously, I think I can rest my case.
As far as not taking you seriously, I will simply ask what you would do with a child molestor that was in prison. Would you say that we just move him to another yeshiva so the "problem" no longer exists. You obviously have no idea of this sickness that you think it goes away after you remove the child. She is pregnant right now. Your next candidate is already there.
I would put my name down but I know that your crazies will be hounding me all day. Just suffice it to say that I KNOW the case, KNOW the promises that were made, have SEEN the evidence and am close to both sides - though most people think I am a government employee. I have given you, an askan, enough information to find me. If you are truly a somebody, it shouldn't be hard.
11
Jul 19, 2009 at 11:06 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Let’s assume this woman was black, and you read in the paper that a black mother was taped on video starving her child. Every single one of us here would be screaming to lock her up and throw away the key. Which normal society would have done any different?
Why the double standard? Do black mothers deserve any less rights than religious Jewish mothers?
In addition, as others pointed out, this is only the beginning of the legal process, and if she is found insane, she will certainly be treated in a different manner and in an appropriate facility. The major emergency was that a child was about to die because of this woman, and taking her away where she could do no more damage was the first priority, the same as any other civilized country would have done.
The long term decisions about what punishment and/or treatments she needs will be decided by the courts and psychiatrists. That is not the job of the police who were only doing their job of saving a helpless victim, the 3 yr old child. ”
Exactly what I'm saying. it doesn't matter who or what this mother is...abuse is abuse, & we all know this is the tip of the iceberg. Abuse in the frum world is hushed up, but all of you out there would be baying like hounds & screaming for blood if she were a shikse or a freier Yid.
12
Jul 19, 2009 at 10:53 AM shmiel glassman Says:
some very good points
the whole story leaves one with many more questions than answers
neither side of the story presents a convincing case
there seem to be a number of pieces missing in the puzzle
i wont condem the hospital ,yet i wont put it past the isralis to cover themselves.
i also believe that a physch eval. will not show much either way
13
Jul 19, 2009 at 11:23 AM Anonymous Says:
“ You can keep fooling yourselves by denying what she did - but everyone else knows the truth and loses respect for the frum when this happens ”
Well, there are definitely two sides here, neither you, nor did I investigate it to the full depth, the Torah obligates us to be dan lekaf zechus, it's a chiyuv not a voluntary mitzva. so you and poshuter yid and all frum haters who would always jump right away to condemn the frum no matter what did or did not happen, just for the sake of spewing hatred are willingly stepping on the holy Torah.
14
Jul 19, 2009 at 11:16 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Let’s assume this woman was black, and you read in the paper that a black mother was taped on video starving her child. Every single one of us here would be screaming to lock her up and throw away the key. Which normal society would have done any different?
Why the double standard? Do black mothers deserve any less rights than religious Jewish mothers?
In addition, as others pointed out, this is only the beginning of the legal process, and if she is found insane, she will certainly be treated in a different manner and in an appropriate facility. The major emergency was that a child was about to die because of this woman, and taking her away where she could do no more damage was the first priority, the same as any other civilized country would have done.
The long term decisions about what punishment and/or treatments she needs will be decided by the courts and psychiatrists. That is not the job of the police who were only doing their job of saving a helpless victim, the 3 yr old child. ”
Pruster Yid,
1. because there are more kids in the house that are 100% perfectly taken care of, that shows something.
2. Even the accusing fingers Israeli welfare office) claim that she suffers of a psychiatric condition, so she is definitely NOT A CRIMINAL, but she is being treated like one, like the worst ones..
3. Askonim and lawyers are fully involved here, they draw up a different picture, a scary picture, this is a bad case of malpractice by doctors that misdiagnosed this kid, they gave him heavy treatment as chemotherapy for a long time, that eventualy caused him excessive weight loss and hair loss, when this situation was discovered by a big doctor, the mother started to act in order to save her child (everything with the advice of doctors and lawyers).
When those butchering doctors found out that they're in hot water, they turned the board over, and took to their assistance the antisemitic (yes, antisemitic/ anti charedi) Israeli authorities to assist them with their "freshly baked" theory and libel.
15
Jul 19, 2009 at 11:14 AM Anonymous Says:
I dont see the problem here....why is everyone in such an uproar.....The woman, might be sick, might not, its all allegations...what is sure is, that the child was on the way to dying, yes she is frum, yes i am sure this has got to do with a past-may be psychologic case may be just a bad history. Point is this jewish child was suffering, of course it was in the headlines....its a very bad story. We are Am Hakodoish and the non frum expect from the frum community sterling behaviour, it was a suprising thing to be found by the frum community. That is why it was probably in the paper.
If it was right or wrong to be in the headlines is a second aspect- my opinion is, it was a wrong move of theirs.
But why pull Klall Yisrael apart? Why not just judge them favorably and saying they (The non frum) probably dont expect this from us? This is a time for the frum Kehillah to show it is holding together in a nice way, exemplary way f.e. saying Tehillim etc. This will bring Moshiach closer and definetly no riots.
May the family soon be over with the nightmare, and all parties get help asap.
16
Jul 19, 2009 at 11:24 AM Anonymous Says:
“ You can keep fooling yourselves by denying what she did - but everyone else knows the truth and loses respect for the frum when this happens ”
Would you like Hashem to judge you likewise when your day come? may it be on this world or the world to come, there's always a chance..
17
Jul 19, 2009 at 11:24 AM Menachem Says:
What a foolish article. If you're going to make these claims, back them up with something. Minimally you must show a pattern and you also must show that there is a difference in treatment. For example, you must bring several similar cases where non-Chareidi women were treated differently. Until you do so, all you've written is merely hot air. Actually worse, because it lends credence to the terrorist Chareidim who've been running amok.
18
Jul 19, 2009 at 11:36 AM Oheiv Yisroel Says:
“ What a foolish article. If you're going to make these claims, back them up with something. Minimally you must show a pattern and you also must show that there is a difference in treatment. For example, you must bring several similar cases where non-Chareidi women were treated differently. Until you do so, all you've written is merely hot air. Actually worse, because it lends credence to the terrorist Chareidim who've been running amok.
”
How about those vicious anti charedi authorities to SHOW some evidence against this precious innocent woman?
BTW, there is a lot of evidence, it's not necessary to bring it up in a news report, but it will be brought up where and when necessary.
If you're really desperate to see similar stories, just knock on every other yerushalmi door, the hate and prejudice of the Authorities there against charedim, especially against the "ultra ultra" orthodox is very obvious.
19
Jul 19, 2009 at 11:44 AM kingsley the chuchem Says:
Shatz Matz- Today u really do hit the nail on the head. Quite right and I would like to add to some points and be fair about other facts. In Beit Shemesh, TODAY!!! a mother of 12 (definitie Charedi) was convicted of abusing her children including sex between teenage children and her husband for neglect in informing police.
The woman in Mea Shearim, should have been arrested on suspicion,but held in a medical incarceration(not criminal jail) until her mental status is determined.
The hospital also has not issued any counter claims to those put forth by the family.
The fact is that the government and media , play up these charedi things when in the Charedi community much more than the numerous cases in Tel Aviv one never hears about. It is a deliberate attempt to instigate the situation as when in the US , orthodox criminal activities are always played up in the press.
No doubt u are correct that the VIOLENCE will ruin many factors of the majority of chareidim who are innocent of the violence by these crazy few. In the Moslem Arab world the majority support violence against infidels and especially Jews ,but here only a few are ruining it for the peaceful majority. The MIR Rosh Hayeshiva and Rav Shternbuch have come out in opposition. Where is GERER REBBE who supported this mayors election, united Torah, and Degel Hatorah??? Why are they not assering these protest that always turn violent..????
.
20
Jul 19, 2009 at 11:43 AM Oheiv Yisroel Says:
“ Exactly what I'm saying. it doesn't matter who or what this mother is...abuse is abuse, & we all know this is the tip of the iceberg. Abuse in the frum world is hushed up, but all of you out there would be baying like hounds & screaming for blood if she were a shikse or a freier Yid. ”
To all antisemites and frum hating commentators here and everywhere, what happened to INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY???
doesn't it apply here? oh I forgot, we're talking here about a frumme yid, so it's not applied here, it's just applicable to Michael Jackson or other non religious yid.. ;
21
Jul 19, 2009 at 11:50 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Let’s assume this woman was black, and you read in the paper that a black mother was taped on video starving her child. Every single one of us here would be screaming to lock her up and throw away the key. Which normal society would have done any different?
Why the double standard? Do black mothers deserve any less rights than religious Jewish mothers?
In addition, as others pointed out, this is only the beginning of the legal process, and if she is found insane, she will certainly be treated in a different manner and in an appropriate facility. The major emergency was that a child was about to die because of this woman, and taking her away where she could do no more damage was the first priority, the same as any other civilized country would have done.
The long term decisions about what punishment and/or treatments she needs will be decided by the courts and psychiatrists. That is not the job of the police who were only doing their job of saving a helpless victim, the 3 yr old child. ”
If they actually have a video let them show it in court then there won't be any questions but until that happens what the authorities say is not fact!
22
Jul 19, 2009 at 11:49 AM Anonymous Says:
Why is it so hard to belive that abuse, crime and corruption excists in the frum comunity?
23
Jul 19, 2009 at 11:49 AM hagtbg Says:
It's worth noting that this article only makes sense if you assume the doctor's viewed the woman as a charedi caricature and not as someone who interacted with them for years.
24
Jul 19, 2009 at 11:32 AM Anonymous Says:
“ As guess the chareidim have learned from Al Sharpton - just blame the police ”
The charedim have learned a lot of things, but you and your counterparts didn't learn anything besides badmouthing and throwing your vomit at other people, and you didn't even learn to hide your loads of hate to ehrliche yidden. what a shame!
25
Jul 19, 2009 at 11:28 AM Anonymous Says:
“ You can keep fooling yourselves by denying what she did - but everyone else knows the truth and loses respect for the frum when this happens ”
..."everyone else knows..." No, nobody knows, there are just some bad people who would always jump up to fast conclusions with a guilty verdict before a judge even heard the sides and before any evidence was shown to the public.
So, right, "everybody knows something",or rather "thinks something", bad people jump to bad conclusions, and good people jump to good conclusions.
26
Jul 19, 2009 at 11:56 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Oh come off it! You wonder why the municipal authorities dont like the chareidi? Maybe it's because the charadeis did not like them first. Why should the municipal authorities feel any love towards the chareidi, when they know that whatever they do they will be despised and vilified by the chareidi community? Or how about the shabbos riots that have gone on in the past few weeks? I am sure they went far in engendering anti-chareidi sentiment.
Besides all that, don't go saying that the case with the mother should have been handled differently. In any civilized country a person like this would be arrested. The police and welfare authorities cannot be expected to make a diagnosis and impose treatment without the full force of the criminal justice system. What could the welfare authorities possibly have done once they realized that the mother was killing her child? Do you think if they would have suggested that she get therapy that she would have done it. Perhaps they should have removed the child from the home. In that case you would of had the same riots. The mother would not have cooperated with authorities and the authorities would have had to return the child to the home. Even now the when the mother was released on the condition that she receives phsyciatric she is playing games. At least now the matter is public and cant be whitewashed anymore. Now perhaps the mother might receive treatment and the child may be rescued. if they would have tried to handle it diplomatically we might very well have had a dead child on our hands with the family blaming the zioninst doctors for killing him. ”
1. it doesn't matter WHY the Israeli gov't hares the frum, it's the fact that they hate the charedim, therefore they abuse the charedim unjustified.
2. compare this case to any similar case in another democratic country, then retype your comment.
27
Jul 19, 2009 at 12:03 PM kingsley the chuchem Says:
#20--- While her treatment during incarceration might be questioned if she was mishandled, one fact remains. The child's safety,is the oheiv yisroel, factor here.
She should have been arrested for the protection of the child, but, the question is how was she treated until she undergoes tests for which she did not show up??? #20 are u condoning the Violence (not the right to protest)
because of "innocent until proven guilty". Even if she ends up possibly mentally ill, do u condone the violence ? If u are a true oheiv Yisroel criticize those with the VIOLENT Shabbos demonstrations (and the Rebbes who are silent and did not asser them since they seem to always end in violence) who have ruined many future private and governmental programs for the majority of poor Chareidim. Watch the consequences on the sectors involved in violent demonstrations. Where is your Oheiv yisroel factorrs for years of damege soon to fall on Chareidim. The seculars won handil y their point. ShatzMatz is right!
28
Jul 19, 2009 at 12:27 PM halaivy Says:
This is all a blood liable!
Well in the the original blood liable's werent there proof and wittnesses to it, and that was only by the Goyim who didn't hate us so much. Here we are dealing with a bunch of AM HO'ARETZ on who reb akivah testifeid that as one of them he hated a haraidi jew to the worst degree. In Israel there is also the clash with the haraidim because for the first 40 years it looked like the non frum were winning over the frum and now with the BA'AL TSHUVAH movement the haraidim are winning them. They will try in any way to get back at the haraidim out of hate.
29
Jul 19, 2009 at 12:26 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Again you are believing everything you read. The media is not a reliable source. You see they did not publicize the video. You and me do not know the truth!!! ”
the problem is that when they do release the video you will be shouting that the zionist police doctored the video. mark my words because im speaking fact
30
Jul 19, 2009 at 12:23 PM Anonymous Says:
If you take a broader view -- its increasingly clear that certain groups of ultra haredim are increasingly cults not torah jews, who, sadly, have more in common with scientologists, moonies and fundamentalist mormons than traditional judaism.
What they all have in common is an organizing principle of "us against them" anyone ouside the cult, by definition, is an enemy and can only bring harm. Classicallyan its the way cults prevent their members from ever interacting with the outside world where they might get alternative viewpoints or information to foster independent thought and challenge the leadership.
In that light, it becomes clear way their rabbonim and gedolim don't intervene. Its not happenstance, but a very deliberate (and successful) attempt to keep their underemployed, poverty-struck bochurim from thinking too hard about why their lives are so dreadful-- focusing them relntlessly on attacking the hated "outsiders" instead of turning their wrath where it shold be aimed -- at their gedolim who have reduced them to such ill-education, idleness and squalor.
31
Jul 19, 2009 at 12:21 PM goldy rosenberg Says:
Those who say abuse is abuse are assuming this was abuse. However, there is still the gap that you are ignoring -- perhaps, using the black population as our "mashal" -- if a black woman complained that Mt. Sinai Hospital was using her son as a research experiment and then the hospital claimed she was abusing that child, I would assume the NAACP and ADL would run in and doublecheck to see if, yes, race, had led a hospital to use a child just like they use rats in labs. The child would be transferred to an impartial hospital and investigations owuld be fair, even as the accused hospital would try to cover their tracks. However, in Israel, when a prestigious hospital does the same on a Chareidi child, there is no democracy, no fair justice, and the mother's charges that the hospital was abusing the child are swept under the headlines of secular media who claim the mother was the abuser. And the idiots who buy every headline condemn the innocent woman too. And the child is not transferred to an outside hospital. And the injustice continues to grow.
32
Jul 19, 2009 at 12:49 PM Anonymous Says:
“ If somebody molests a child, is he a criminal or just mentally ill ? If the mother was hurting the child she committed a crime. After her arrest she can get help for her mental illness. This is the way seculars are treated.
”
i caaaaaaaaaaant take it anymooore!!!!!!!!! do you at all pay attn to whats going on????????? did you READ the article??? there are 2 basic possibilities in this case #1 she did nothing wrong- ever- and she was basically framed. #2 the guilty side of things that they are claiming (which has not been PROVEN) which is that she DID do something wrong , due to no fault of her own but rather due to a mental condition. so you see sherlock that the only guilt POSSIBILITY is based on the fact that she has a mental illness on the side of things (#1) that she is mentaly healthy, she did nothing wrong.
I mean this is not rocket surgery, i dont know how to say it any simpler
33
Jul 19, 2009 at 12:48 PM Anonymous Says:
The Chareidi community is in a crisis. The so-called "gadolim" within the community have lost all control over the younger generation of disenchanted bochurim who simply want to riot for no reason. The cannot control their own followers who have no sense of purpose in life, no parnassah, and are totally alienated from the rest of EY. Aside from their reproductive skills, they have yet to make any real contribution to the medinah or klal yisroel.
34
Jul 19, 2009 at 12:40 PM Menachem Says:
“ How about those vicious anti charedi authorities to SHOW some evidence against this precious innocent woman?
BTW, there is a lot of evidence, it's not necessary to bring it up in a news report, but it will be brought up where and when necessary.
If you're really desperate to see similar stories, just knock on every other yerushalmi door, the hate and prejudice of the Authorities there against charedim, especially against the "ultra ultra" orthodox is very obvious. ”
They have no obligation to show YOU anything. Besides if they publicized the video all the Chareidi apologists would say that it's doctored or they'd freak for showing this woman in a such a compromised situation.
The woman is accused of committing attempted murder. She deserved to be arrested. If she would have cooperated and allowed the psychiatric exam right away she would not have been kept in jail. You can't have it both ways.
If anything the police are way too lenient on the Chareidim. They get away with criminal activity that no other segment of society is allowed to. There should have been hundreds of arrests of the past few weeks and there ultimately should be dozens convicted and serving jail. Ideally the maximum the law allows to make an example of them.
35
Jul 19, 2009 at 12:33 PM tzoorba Says:
“ #20--- While her treatment during incarceration might be questioned if she was mishandled, one fact remains. The child's safety,is the oheiv yisroel, factor here.
She should have been arrested for the protection of the child, but, the question is how was she treated until she undergoes tests for which she did not show up??? #20 are u condoning the Violence (not the right to protest)
because of "innocent until proven guilty". Even if she ends up possibly mentally ill, do u condone the violence ? If u are a true oheiv Yisroel criticize those with the VIOLENT Shabbos demonstrations (and the Rebbes who are silent and did not asser them since they seem to always end in violence) who have ruined many future private and governmental programs for the majority of poor Chareidim. Watch the consequences on the sectors involved in violent demonstrations. Where is your Oheiv yisroel factorrs for years of damege soon to fall on Chareidim. The seculars won handil y their point. ShatzMatz is right! ”
Why should she be arrested for the safety of the child? Someone else should have been assigned to help such as a relative that is trustworthy or even some social services official but arrest is outrageous and inflammatory.
Why are you harping on the violence of the few crazies that engage in it?
Your constant slander and disrespect for Rabbonim is out of line. How do you know that Toldos Aharon, for example, didn't tell their people not to be violent? If the rebbe said it in the bais medrosh, do you think that he would invite the press in to record his statements?
If this jeopardizes the treatment of Chareidim by the authorities, it would represent a flawed double standard. When the Palestinians shoot rockets and send suicide bombers, they don't lose their electricity and other services. The majority here should not be penalized for the sins of a few.
Those who don't donate to Chareidim who need it because of the evil acts of the mesugoim are just looking for an excuse not to support people in need.
36
Jul 19, 2009 at 12:45 PM esther Says:
“ Exactly what I'm saying. it doesn't matter who or what this mother is...abuse is abuse, & we all know this is the tip of the iceberg. Abuse in the frum world is hushed up, but all of you out there would be baying like hounds & screaming for blood if she were a shikse or a freier Yid. ”
then she should have been held under psychiatric supervision as would have happened here in the u.s. this violence is wrong but it's really quite sickening to see so many posters on this sight constantly jumping on the chareidim-we don't live in EY and we don't know what they face daily from the police/gov.do you remember the peaceful demonstration by frum yidden a few years ago that the police responded to on horseback with batons swinging?
37
Jul 19, 2009 at 12:37 PM Anonymous Says:
Great article. unfortunately the Israeli authorities are very prejudice against the frum - ultra orthodox.
Let's hope things improve, and may we see the geula soon.
38
Jul 19, 2009 at 01:24 PM Pashuteh Yid Says:
#31, The problem here is that Haddasah Hospital has treated Chareidim and non-Chareidim and even Arabs with warmth, love and kindness and the best medical care they know how for many years. This is a fact. To say that all of the sudden they decided to abuse one Chareidi kid and make a huge coverup and get the police involved to falsely blame the mother is a bit far-fetched. In addition there is claimed to be a video, but there has also been testimony from frum witnesses who have seen the mother starve the child over and over in the hospital. Maybe the USA was responsible for 9/11 and used a few innocent Arabs to blame them for the collapse of the Towers. These types of theories are not they way rational people view the world.
#30, Exactly right. George Orwell meant exactly that in the book 1984 when he wrote War is Peace. Because if you get the masses constantly involved in some imaginary war, they will forget their own problems and be fired up to sacrifice for the greater cause. (In Orwell's book, he deliberately had one part of his empire fight with the other for exactly that reason.) If the war should end, people would be so furious at their leaders for their poor lot, that they would overthrow them.
39
Jul 19, 2009 at 02:08 PM Anonymous Says:
“ #31, The problem here is that Haddasah Hospital has treated Chareidim and non-Chareidim and even Arabs with warmth, love and kindness and the best medical care they know how for many years. This is a fact. To say that all of the sudden they decided to abuse one Chareidi kid and make a huge coverup and get the police involved to falsely blame the mother is a bit far-fetched. In addition there is claimed to be a video, but there has also been testimony from frum witnesses who have seen the mother starve the child over and over in the hospital. Maybe the USA was responsible for 9/11 and used a few innocent Arabs to blame them for the collapse of the Towers. These types of theories are not they way rational people view the world.
#30, Exactly right. George Orwell meant exactly that in the book 1984 when he wrote War is Peace. Because if you get the masses constantly involved in some imaginary war, they will forget their own problems and be fired up to sacrifice for the greater cause. (In Orwell's book, he deliberately had one part of his empire fight with the other for exactly that reason.) If the war should end, people would be so furious at their leaders for their poor lot, that they would overthrow them. ”
You can't compare a hospital's everyday treatment of patients, to a case where doctors and the hospital are facing malpractice charges, its very simple to understand (if you want to).
as far as how good the doctors are in their practice? very low level, any serious case would come to America for treatment, because of the junky clinics -sorry, hospitals in Israel.
And yes, there is a built in hatred towards rhe charedim there, much before the protests or riots.
Unfortunately Jews are more safe and have more rights in many other countries rather than prejudice jew hating Israel.
40
Jul 19, 2009 at 02:35 PM Reality Says:
The one that knows doesn't say. And the one that says doesn't know!!!!!!!
41
Jul 19, 2009 at 02:30 PM Anonymous Says:
The actions of the Chareidim in Israel have nothing to do with this woman----she is just an excuse, the same way that the Arabs rioted simply because Arik Sharon walked through a tunnel. It's all political. The real reason why they are acting this way is because they do not believe that the Israeli government has any authority over them. According to them, she can starve and endanger her child, and the doctors and police have no right to do anything to her. However, if she had allowed someone to give her son something traif, then the rebbeim would have punished her severely, and the Israeli government has no right to protect her!!!
42
Jul 19, 2009 at 02:01 PM Anonymous Says:
“ They have no obligation to show YOU anything. Besides if they publicized the video all the Chareidi apologists would say that it's doctored or they'd freak for showing this woman in a such a compromised situation.
The woman is accused of committing attempted murder. She deserved to be arrested. If she would have cooperated and allowed the psychiatric exam right away she would not have been kept in jail. You can't have it both ways.
If anything the police are way too lenient on the Chareidim. They get away with criminal activity that no other segment of society is allowed to. There should have been hundreds of arrests of the past few weeks and there ultimately should be dozens convicted and serving jail. Ideally the maximum the law allows to make an example of them. ”
Here you go next jew hater.. do you by any chance live in Tel Aviv or Eilat? this is what your ignorant comment stinks like.
Did you listen to both sides before you blabbel? ot you're fast to judge because the defendant is a "frummie"?
43
Jul 19, 2009 at 01:59 PM Anonymous Says:
“ #20--- While her treatment during incarceration might be questioned if she was mishandled, one fact remains. The child's safety,is the oheiv yisroel, factor here.
She should have been arrested for the protection of the child, but, the question is how was she treated until she undergoes tests for which she did not show up??? #20 are u condoning the Violence (not the right to protest)
because of "innocent until proven guilty". Even if she ends up possibly mentally ill, do u condone the violence ? If u are a true oheiv Yisroel criticize those with the VIOLENT Shabbos demonstrations (and the Rebbes who are silent and did not asser them since they seem to always end in violence) who have ruined many future private and governmental programs for the majority of poor Chareidim. Watch the consequences on the sectors involved in violent demonstrations. Where is your Oheiv yisroel factorrs for years of damege soon to fall on Chareidim. The seculars won handil y their point. ShatzMatz is right! ”
As long as "ohev yisroel" writes positive on other yidden, and you and shatz matz and all left wing negative commentators critisize all ehrlicha yidden including condemning rebbes and gedolei yisroel, then you are the wrong ones, and ohev yisroel is right.
44
Jul 19, 2009 at 01:53 PM Anonymous Says:
Great article. unfortunately the Israeli authorities are very prejudice against the frum - ultra orthodox.
Let's hope things improve, and may we see the geula soon.
45
Jul 19, 2009 at 01:52 PM Anonymous Says:
It is pathetic! Last week Dudu Zilbershlag, as a spokesman for the family, said he would release documents proving that the child has been treated with chemotherapy! No documents where shown, for obvious reasons. Now he admits that the mother is suffering a mental disorder. But - everything is still a campain from the secular media.
Wonderful!
I am not denying that Israeli secular media is full of anti charedi reports. But when the media - now according to Zilbershlag himself - happens to be reporting the truth, wouldn't it be better to admit that and try to come to a halt with this mass chillul H-m that is going on in Yerushalajim?
46
Jul 19, 2009 at 01:40 PM dovy Says:
I'm still waiting for Israeli police spokesmen Achmed Tibi to make his statement on the police action here. Maybe he will defend them for not killing anyone.
47
Jul 19, 2009 at 01:30 PM Anonymous Says:
“ then she should have been held under psychiatric supervision as would have happened here in the u.s. this violence is wrong but it's really quite sickening to see so many posters on this sight constantly jumping on the chareidim-we don't live in EY and we don't know what they face daily from the police/gov.do you remember the peaceful demonstration by frum yidden a few years ago that the police responded to on horseback with batons swinging? ”
"we don't live in EY and we don't know what they face daily from the police"
Actually, the police have been very restrained compared to what they could do considering the provocations by the Chareidim. In any major U.S. city, any group that attacked the police with stones, dirty diapers etc. would have been gassed, pepper sprayed, hit with rubber bullets or other non-lethal weapons.
48
Jul 19, 2009 at 01:28 PM yiddishe bubby Says:
“ Exactly what I'm saying. it doesn't matter who or what this mother is...abuse is abuse, & we all know this is the tip of the iceberg. Abuse in the frum world is hushed up, but all of you out there would be baying like hounds & screaming for blood if she were a shikse or a freier Yid. ”
I agree, if the authorities would not have done anything they would not be going according to halacha and would these young hooligans who have nothing else to do but burn gargage in their own neighborhoods, putting everyone in health danger. Get your heads out of the sand, there are people who are charedei and who have mental illnesses as well as all kinds of other people. we are all human beings and subject to accross the board inhuman behavior let's try to correct it.
49
Jul 19, 2009 at 04:26 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Pruster Yid,
1. because there are more kids in the house that are 100% perfectly taken care of, that shows something.
2. Even the accusing fingers Israeli welfare office) claim that she suffers of a psychiatric condition, so she is definitely NOT A CRIMINAL, but she is being treated like one, like the worst ones..
3. Askonim and lawyers are fully involved here, they draw up a different picture, a scary picture, this is a bad case of malpractice by doctors that misdiagnosed this kid, they gave him heavy treatment as chemotherapy for a long time, that eventualy caused him excessive weight loss and hair loss, when this situation was discovered by a big doctor, the mother started to act in order to save her child (everything with the advice of doctors and lawyers).
When those butchering doctors found out that they're in hot water, they turned the board over, and took to their assistance the antisemitic (yes, antisemitic/ anti charedi) Israeli authorities to assist them with their "freshly baked" theory and libel.
”
from were did you get this information?
50
Jul 19, 2009 at 04:30 PM Anonymous Says:
“ To all antisemites and frum hating commentators here and everywhere, what happened to INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY???
doesn't it apply here? oh I forgot, we're talking here about a frumme yid, so it's not applied here, it's just applicable to Michael Jackson or other non religious yid.. ; ”
She is innocent until proven guilt in a court of law.
She has a right to claim a psychiatric disorder in court.
She is a frumme Yid and it does apply here.
But the rules also apply to the rioters who deserve to be arrested and prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
51
Jul 19, 2009 at 04:21 PM Anonymous Says:
Very sad situation in E.Y.
is this why some jews wanted a "Jewish state"?
52
Jul 19, 2009 at 03:53 PM Anonymous Says:
“ "we don't live in EY and we don't know what they face daily from the police"
Actually, the police have been very restrained compared to what they could do considering the provocations by the Chareidim. In any major U.S. city, any group that attacked the police with stones, dirty diapers etc. would have been gassed, pepper sprayed, hit with rubber bullets or other non-lethal weapons. ”
And the charedi protesters in EY are being shot with rubber bullets, knocked on the heads with sticks and batons by horse riding police, and pepper sprayed even after being restrained and bound in handcuffs. and not for throwing stones, just for obstructing traffic!!
You were apparently never there, so keep your mouth shut. the police brutality there is unbelievable!
53
Jul 19, 2009 at 07:37 PM wiseman Says:
“ First, I will deal with your article seriously. The Israeli government, as well as many, how should I put this, secular-minded frum individuals, are dealing with too many of these issues for far too long. The government has tried not to involve itself in many of the affairs of the, how should I put it, non-trusting Yeshivish world. Stories like Chen and the "Taliban" woman permeate the headlines. The government knows that these individuals have many followers. It was their hope that by going after the main individual they would silence the critics and the followers will merely find new ways to discipline their children. However, no one looks to see that they have dealt lightly in this regard. Furthermore, you make light of the thousands upon thousands of dollars that the government, that this woman wishes to overthrow, has spent in trying to find the "problem" with the child. You also failed to address the fact that their investigation has found that 2 other children have also been abused here. It is not that the woman is being made a vilian. It is the fact that she won't take advantage of the resources available to her that make her a vilian. You, who make it sound like your an askan, fail to tell people that she was allowed to leave if she underwent phsycological testing. She has constantly refused. Today's delay is just another of her tricks. You say the welfare office is to blame but you don't take any responsibility, as an askan, for lying to the courts and promising that she will attend. I have many more proofs you are a nobody and that you are purposely misshaping the story, but, if I was taking you seriously, I think I can rest my case.
As far as not taking you seriously, I will simply ask what you would do with a child molestor that was in prison. Would you say that we just move him to another yeshiva so the "problem" no longer exists. You obviously have no idea of this sickness that you think it goes away after you remove the child. She is pregnant right now. Your next candidate is already there.
I would put my name down but I know that your crazies will be hounding me all day. Just suffice it to say that I KNOW the case, KNOW the promises that were made, have SEEN the evidence and am close to both sides - though most people think I am a government employee. I have given you, an askan, enough information to find me. If you are truly a somebody, it shouldn't be hard. ”
If what you are saying is the truth. Then my hat is off to you. Too long has the Charedi community tried to sweep such things under the rug and pretend it just doesn't exist. The same is true w/homosexuality in our yeshivos.
54
Jul 19, 2009 at 08:51 PM Anonymous Says:
One thing everyone here seems to be (willfully) ignoring is the fact that, while MSBP may be a mental illness, it is not a valid insanity defense. It only explains (or rather, tries to categorize a certain behavior and put a fancy name on it) why a certain individual might behave in a certain way, but it DOES NOT say that the person is insane and was incapable of discerning right from wrong.
In fact, a person with MSBP is NOT insane and knows fully well that his/her actions are wrong and punishable. Just like a kleptomaniac knows that stealing is wrong but still has a taivah to steal, and a pedophile knows that molesting children is wrong but wants to do it anyway.
There is no reason to treat a person with MSBP with kid gloves more than any other abusive parent or person or necessarily put them in a mental institution or therapy rather than prison.
55
Jul 19, 2009 at 09:40 PM kingsley the chuchem Says:
“ Why should she be arrested for the safety of the child? Someone else should have been assigned to help such as a relative that is trustworthy or even some social services official but arrest is outrageous and inflammatory.
Why are you harping on the violence of the few crazies that engage in it?
Your constant slander and disrespect for Rabbonim is out of line. How do you know that Toldos Aharon, for example, didn't tell their people not to be violent? If the rebbe said it in the bais medrosh, do you think that he would invite the press in to record his statements?
If this jeopardizes the treatment of Chareidim by the authorities, it would represent a flawed double standard. When the Palestinians shoot rockets and send suicide bombers, they don't lose their electricity and other services. The majority here should not be penalized for the sins of a few.
Those who don't donate to Chareidim who need it because of the evil acts of the mesugoim are just looking for an excuse not to support people in need.
”
I have constantly said "that especially if she was sick" the handling of her arrest is what has to be examined and the protection of the child is paramount"! I stated in my other comments that The Mir rosh Yesh and rav shternbuch came out against the violence. If the Toldos rabbonim came out against the violence-power to them .
It doesn't matter what the reaction is to the Farkakte Arabs! What is important to continuously point out (because of the Shabbos protest and again now !) is that the Haredi community and it's Gedolim must stop these few violent demonstratorsthemselves and ostracize them from the community because this will have consequences that have come about in situations like this that PR freidlander
wrote about. By their silence the Charedi community will suffer for years to come in every facet of their lives if this is not publicly rebuffed regardless of the woman's status. Tzoora-they will only have tzuris because u can't see past this. And all the Rabbonim should come out publicly because it is one big chiulul Hashem and we are better because of Torah. So wake up! Tzoorba I look forward to being wrong!!!
56
Jul 19, 2009 at 10:03 PM kingsley the chuchem Says:
#43 u have no idea what I am left or right or Shatz Matz with whom I disagree quite often but not here. Today , everyone thinks their Rebbe or Rav is the Godol Hador.
When u see thousands of Charedi Yeedin out protesting Shabbos (with every right) ending in violence and now again ending in violence, there is something that these so called Rabbonim should have done! I did give recognition to the Mir Rosh Yeshiva and Rav Shternbuch for PUBLIC decelerations against the violence.
Shatz Matz and I sincerely believe that there will be long-term repercussions (already beginning by the service cuts to all Haredim) and consequences to all Frum yeedin in Israel for the failure of a concerted declaration of any violent act during protests.
Whebn they make their nonsensical anti Lipa- anti separate concerts or cantorial concerts they make public united declarations. Heimishe yeedin in America are disgust ed because we know what the reprecussions were to those participating in violent protests in US> The cahreidi community is being played right into the secular sonim who are looking for reasons to destroy the Chareidi community anytime anyplace. And the silence by these so called Rabbonim will cause a backlash u ahve no sense about. Most Gedolim didn't think anyone should leave Poland either before Hitler. U will never have the ahavas Yisroel Shatz Matz, Rabbi Freidlander or I have for every Jew even Secular!! U are truly unable to understand what we care about or wish to point out. shame on u for being like the Gedolim in Poland during pre Nazi Germany who told their people "don't worry everything will be all right!"
57
Jul 19, 2009 at 11:00 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Let’s assume this woman was black, and you read in the paper that a black mother was taped on video starving her child. Every single one of us here would be screaming to lock her up and throw away the key. Which normal society would have done any different?
Why the double standard? Do black mothers deserve any less rights than religious Jewish mothers?
In addition, as others pointed out, this is only the beginning of the legal process, and if she is found insane, she will certainly be treated in a different manner and in an appropriate facility. The major emergency was that a child was about to die because of this woman, and taking her away where she could do no more damage was the first priority, the same as any other civilized country would have done.
The long term decisions about what punishment and/or treatments she needs will be decided by the courts and psychiatrists. That is not the job of the police who were only doing their job of saving a helpless victim, the 3 yr old child. ”
While you assume the race of the women, why don't you assume the sad truth that this never happened??? Why do you take the fabrication for granted??? Don't you see that no such tape exists??? If it would exist it would have long been publicized...
While you criticize the double standard, look in the mirror at yourself what double standard you took!!! Don't Hareidy women deserve the right to be heard and believed at least as much as the secular so called welfare (not well and not fare...) staff member?
I would strongly recommend that people who can condemn like this, be evaluated and examined by psychiatrists... and sued in court
58
Jul 20, 2009 at 12:41 AM PMO Says:
“ Again you are believing everything you read. The media is not a reliable source. You see they did not publicize the video. You and me do not know the truth!!! ”
Why release the video? That video is evidence. You are not entitled to see it. In this country HIPAA would prohibit such a video from being released anyway (yes parents can give consent, but my guess is this child has been appointed a guardian).
Without knowing all the facts, some are ready to hold this woman up as a martyr, while others are willing to burn her at the stake. Meanwhile, innocent people's lives have been put in danger by arsonists and animals throwing stones. Nobody is even willing to wait to see the outcome of the investigation. In ANY country... ANYWHERE... this woman would have been arrested, including here in the US. The hospital would have been REQUIRED to call the police and seek charges.
If this woman really is mentally ill, we should DAVEN for her, not go out and recklessly try to kill people. If she is a criminal, she belongs in prison. If neither is true we should embrace this family and try to help them.
Until we know the facts, we cannot judge. So for all the crazy comments on here about whether the police hate chareidim or not, or whether committing arson is a proper response.... you can just stick it where the sun don't shine. This is about a mother and her child... and a family, all of whom are suffering tremendously. Nothing more. Daven for them... give tzedokoh... and wait for the facts to be determined. Wait for the experts to evaluate her and the child. Only H" can help here... violent criminals and arsonists cannot.
59
Jul 20, 2009 at 11:30 AM shimon taylor Says:
“ Why is it so hard to belive that abuse, crime and corruption excists in the frum comunity? ”
Find me such a case! THEN talk.