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Netivot, Israel - Cops Probe 'Modesty Patrols' Targeting Merchants |
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Modesty patrols spread fear in Israel A Jerusalem shop catering to ultra-Orthodox women displays the long-sleeve shirts and ankle-length skirts that women are required to wear according to Jewish law. In Israels ultra-Orthodox Jewish community, religious zealots, called modesty patrols, are on a sometimes-violent crusade to stamp out what they consider unchaste behavior.
The gang members - whom ultra-Orthodox residents of the city say are a minority group not supported by the rabbis and community - enter local businesses, assess the situation and complain about the employees' dress. They approach the store manager and warn him that if the saleswomen do not switch to completely modest clothes, they will see to a boycott of the store.
Some of the local store owners capitulate to the demands and in return receive a faux kashrut certification in the form of a sticker that states: "The king's daughter is glorious within. Daughter of Israel, you are the daughter of a king - dress accordingly," which is affixed to dozens of store windows around town.
"The guy came into my store and saw one of my female workers wearing a small shirt," said the owner of a shoe store, "it wasn't a tank top, just a small shirt. But he started shouting that if the worker did not dress appropriately, he would cause financial damage, and claimed 'just as you can tell the workers when to come and when to go, you can tell them what to wear.' I didn't want to hurt my business and therefore I agreed, and I received certification."
Another local merchant, the owner of housewares store, described what happened to him. "Two weeks ago one of the guys came into my store," he said. "'I have the entire ultra-Orthodox community behind me. If you don't sign this paper and affix the sticker, we will boycott you,' he said to me. I didn't give in to his degenerate blackmail, but I didn't want to get into a fight with the whole ultra-Orthodox community and that's why I didn't file a complaint with the police."
The ultra-Orthodox community in Netivot, which comprises about 25 percent of the city, denounced the phenomenon.
"It is an act that should not be done," said a senior member of the community. "This practice is unacceptable to the ultra-Orthodox community and it is leading to unfounded hatred among the residents of Netivot, who were always united and never had tension among them."
The ultra-Orthodox figure also said he believed the group had no influence over the consumer habits of the community members.
"It is possible that there are a small number of people who follow their rules but they are a minority," he said.
According to him, the rabbis do not officially criticize the phenomenon because they "think it is nonsense."
Religious tension between the different populations in Netivot barely exist normally. The last time the city saw contention was before the city council elections, when ultra-Orthodox residents protested against the opening of pubs in Netivot, though the demonstrations died down after a few days.
The punishment the group imposes on stores that refuse to cooperate is their omission from the list of recommended stores distributed by the ultra-Orthodox community. They don't only target housewares and shoe merchants, but also other establishments.
"Three weeks ago an ultra-Orthodox guy showed up at the gas station," said the manager of the station. "He threatened me that if we didn't stop playing music here and if the local papers that I sell on Fridays didn't disappear, then he would make sure that no ultra-Orthodox person from Netivot would set foot in my gas station and I wouldn't appear in the list of recommended stores that he distributes."
The manager refused the ultra-Orthodox man's requests.
"It's simply a disgrace, I know that he doesn't represent the entire ultra-Orthodox community, but he is harming the relations between the city's communities and heating things up there," he said.
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Read Comments (91) — Post Yours »
1
Jul 21, 2009 at 09:25 PM Anonymous Says:
In many towns in the south and midwest, the churches publish listings of stores and service providers who are also "born again christians" with a strong suggestion that those stores be patronized. The behavior of these thugs is disgusting but at least some of the orthodox rabbonim have spoken against it (but won't allow their names to be quoted for fear of offending these thugs).
2
Jul 21, 2009 at 09:22 PM Anonymous Says:
Its somewhat ironic that these ostensibly frumme yiddin are acting like the German leadership prior to WWII where they told Germans not to patronize stores owned by yiddin. Not surprising given the behavior of the Chareidim in Yerushalayim and other cities where they seek to coerce secuular jews into submission to their views.
3
Jul 21, 2009 at 09:21 PM Liepa Says:
Where does this all end. Enough.
4
Jul 21, 2009 at 09:33 PM Anonymous Says:
No garbage dumpsters in Netivot?
5
Jul 21, 2009 at 09:37 PM Beryl Says:
Is this the same group that moved from Ramat Bait Shemesh after violently attacking women on buses? Seems to me the real suppressed sexual problems are with these kanoy'im, not with the store workers. Aside from the fact that threatening to destroy someone's business and livelihood involves multiple issurim in Choshen Mishpat.
6
Jul 21, 2009 at 09:56 PM pro tzniut Says:
it would be nice to have a specail coat or jacket like the docs & nurses its modest classy and it advertises the business ar the same time
7
Jul 21, 2009 at 09:54 PM Sam Says:
“ Its somewhat ironic that these ostensibly frumme yiddin are acting like the German leadership prior to WWII where they told Germans not to patronize stores owned by yiddin. Not surprising given the behavior of the Chareidim in Yerushalayim and other cities where they seek to coerce secuular jews into submission to their views. ”
I agree that the thugs in Netivot are wrong and are causing a chillul Hashem. I also think that #2 goes too far. Comparing ANYTHING with the behavior of Nazis is off the mark and totally unacceptable. See the Bloomberg kerfuffle elsewhere on VIN.
8
Jul 21, 2009 at 09:51 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Its somewhat ironic that these ostensibly frumme yiddin are acting like the German leadership prior to WWII where they told Germans not to patronize stores owned by yiddin. Not surprising given the behavior of the Chareidim in Yerushalayim and other cities where they seek to coerce secuular jews into submission to their views. ”
"coerce" by seatbelts and driving in the mountains noone has a problem with "coerce"ing why because everyone understands the danger so if everyone in the mountains understands who are we "coercing" the teenagers who arent smart enough to fully understand the danger also by seatbelts if everyone really understood the danger of a accident they would wear it (just ask someone who was in a accident)so by tznius also we (most bloggers on vin)dont understand the danger do you know what happens when someone looks at pritzus do you fully understand the problem that results no both because we dont know fully the reason hashem said this mitzva but we trust the one who made the world that he knows how to run it and secondly because we are influnced by other ideas not just by ideas from the torah and we use these to form our thoughts on if it is right or wrong we must only listen to the gedolim who are only influnced by the torah and if here they are trying to keep us safe we assume they know better like when the goverment makes a safety code on a building most people here said you must listen to the t even if you dont understand why it is needed the gedolim know best
9
Jul 21, 2009 at 09:57 PM SA Says:
Lock these thugs up and throw away the keys...
10
Jul 21, 2009 at 10:01 PM Anonymous Says:
10 shekels says this is being done by chozrim b'tchvah just like the taliban lady from beit shemesh, they want to undo all the chatoyim they did before by being more "frum" then FFBs
11
Jul 21, 2009 at 10:00 PM AuthenticSatmar Says:
Isn't there anybody left to stand up for yiddishkeit?
Why is this site full of so many people who look to criticize every chareidi action. If you are so anti-chareidi why are you on this site.
Why can't frum people choose to be frum. If the store owner wants to be on the list then he complies and if not then so be it. There are many organizations that inspect stores for their own criteria and then publish lists. This is no different than any editorial review. The fact that police chose to investigate shows a clear anti-chareidi bias.
If someone chose to publish a list of stores open on shabbos with stickers to go along would the police be investigating?
It is becoming more obvious that there is a clear anti chareidi agenda.
For all those saying that if the chareidim just did what they were supposed to there would be no problem are like Israel and the UN that no matter what they do they are condemned.
12
Jul 21, 2009 at 10:16 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Isn't there anybody left to stand up for yiddishkeit?
Why is this site full of so many people who look to criticize every chareidi action. If you are so anti-chareidi why are you on this site.
Why can't frum people choose to be frum. If the store owner wants to be on the list then he complies and if not then so be it. There are many organizations that inspect stores for their own criteria and then publish lists. This is no different than any editorial review. The fact that police chose to investigate shows a clear anti-chareidi bias.
If someone chose to publish a list of stores open on shabbos with stickers to go along would the police be investigating?
It is becoming more obvious that there is a clear anti chareidi agenda.
For all those saying that if the chareidim just did what they were supposed to there would be no problem are like Israel and the UN that no matter what they do they are condemned. ”
Yes, you are so right. some people take all their yiddishkeit off the internet, not learning, eating pepper steak and sushi brings out stupid hollow anti charedi comments.
13
Jul 21, 2009 at 10:13 PM Anonymous Says:
There is no reason a gasoline station should be boycotted for playing Lipa records or the miami boys choirs.
14
Jul 21, 2009 at 10:04 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I agree that the thugs in Netivot are wrong and are causing a chillul Hashem. I also think that #2 goes too far. Comparing ANYTHING with the behavior of Nazis is off the mark and totally unacceptable. See the Bloomberg kerfuffle elsewhere on VIN. ”
Poster No. 2 very carefully avoided any reference to Nazis and/or concentration camps. He/she referred to the behavior of the Germans to marginalize the jewish economy in the pre war period. The analogy is correct and we have to get beyond this fixation on never referring to any period in German history in any context other than the Shoah.
15
Jul 21, 2009 at 10:38 PM Anonymous Says:
I really hate to say this but this reminds me of how the Muslims treat their people. Hashem gave us the freedom of choice and while we should be following the rules it is the choice of the person. Since when do we wish bad on another jew because of his spiritual status?? what is becoming of this this is the 3 weeks there is a way to help ppl become better and this is defiantly NOT the way
17
Jul 21, 2009 at 10:29 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Lock these thugs up and throw away the keys... ”
Whom? those police/ investigators? wait to lock them up when they start behaving like the Jerusalem police, meanwhile they're only investigating and threatening the ehrliche charedim of Netivot.
18
Jul 21, 2009 at 10:26 PM Charlie Hall Says:
The Iranian Mullahs and the Taliban set up modesty patrols. Why would they not be asur because of chukat hagoyim?
19
Jul 21, 2009 at 10:26 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Its somewhat ironic that these ostensibly frumme yiddin are acting like the German leadership prior to WWII where they told Germans not to patronize stores owned by yiddin. Not surprising given the behavior of the Chareidim in Yerushalayim and other cities where they seek to coerce secuular jews into submission to their views. ”
How about comparing the investigators to the germans going after yidden for keeping the torah?
those patrols did nothing violent, no physical damage, they want that a torah observant jew should be able to keep the torah, and stores that meet the torah laws.
20
Jul 21, 2009 at 10:22 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Is this the same group that moved from Ramat Bait Shemesh after violently attacking women on buses? Seems to me the real suppressed sexual problems are with these kanoy'im, not with the store workers. Aside from the fact that threatening to destroy someone's business and livelihood involves multiple issurim in Choshen Mishpat. ”
Did u ever hear of "veloi sosuru acharei levavchem veacharei eineichem"?
it's not s choishen mishpot, it's a posuk in d torah.
21
Jul 21, 2009 at 10:09 PM Authentic? Says:
“ Isn't there anybody left to stand up for yiddishkeit?
Why is this site full of so many people who look to criticize every chareidi action. If you are so anti-chareidi why are you on this site.
Why can't frum people choose to be frum. If the store owner wants to be on the list then he complies and if not then so be it. There are many organizations that inspect stores for their own criteria and then publish lists. This is no different than any editorial review. The fact that police chose to investigate shows a clear anti-chareidi bias.
If someone chose to publish a list of stores open on shabbos with stickers to go along would the police be investigating?
It is becoming more obvious that there is a clear anti chareidi agenda.
For all those saying that if the chareidim just did what they were supposed to there would be no problem are like Israel and the UN that no matter what they do they are condemned. ”
What kind of judaism do you practice? Just another 'ism'? Who are you fooling? You and your mind controlling taliban rabbis are a big joke!
22
Jul 21, 2009 at 10:49 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Did u ever hear of "veloi sosuru acharei levavchem veacharei eineichem"?
it's not s choishen mishpot, it's a posuk in d torah. ”
what does this posuk have to do with the price of chulent in bnai brak...did someone teach you a yiddeshe vert that you are proud and showing off
23
Jul 21, 2009 at 10:45 PM Anonymous Says:
This is just another example of why and how the Chareidim are bringing all these tzores on themselves and its only going to get worse. Maybe they should conider relocating their communities to some desolate part of the Sinai desert and build a wall to keep out normal yidden.
24
Jul 21, 2009 at 10:43 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Isn't there anybody left to stand up for yiddishkeit?
Why is this site full of so many people who look to criticize every chareidi action. If you are so anti-chareidi why are you on this site.
Why can't frum people choose to be frum. If the store owner wants to be on the list then he complies and if not then so be it. There are many organizations that inspect stores for their own criteria and then publish lists. This is no different than any editorial review. The fact that police chose to investigate shows a clear anti-chareidi bias.
If someone chose to publish a list of stores open on shabbos with stickers to go along would the police be investigating?
It is becoming more obvious that there is a clear anti chareidi agenda.
For all those saying that if the chareidim just did what they were supposed to there would be no problem are like Israel and the UN that no matter what they do they are condemned. ”
This is not called "anti-charedi" or "anti-frum"comments. Since when did frumkeit consist of such acts?!! R'Chaim Pinchos Scheinberg Shlita was once asked what to do when one sees an inappropriate billboard at the bus stop. He answered "DON'T LOOK" Now I know we all know better and he's too conservative....Just maybe ask YOUR Rov before you condone such things!
25
Jul 22, 2009 at 06:30 AM a pushiter yid Says:
why this whole fuss about tznius patrol?
look what our gedolim are writing about the issur of pritzus, it brings so much tzorus on klal yisroel, im not sure if the group has haskomoh or involved with daas torah , but 1 thing is sure they are fighting a worthy cause,a married woman being machshol a man or bochur to look ..... is a horrible aveira, she should do so only to her husband.
many tzorus will be avoided even by preventing 1 person of being nichshol in "vlo sosuru achrei levavchem vachrei einechem, we should be thankful to such a chevra, they are saving lives and neshamas, as long as it is not a violent group.
i would love to hear 1 day that a group was formed to patrol in shuls, so that every omein is answered properly, and not chas vsholom shmoozing by chazoras hashatz or kadish,
yidden have rachmonus, by doing little, we can be meorer so much rachmei shomayim.
26
Jul 22, 2009 at 06:10 AM Charlie Hall Says:
“ How about comparing the investigators to the germans going after yidden for keeping the torah?
those patrols did nothing violent, no physical damage, they want that a torah observant jew should be able to keep the torah, and stores that meet the torah laws. ”
The Nazis didn't go after Jews for keeping the Torah. They went after Jews because we were Jews. They went after Jews who had converted to Christianity with just as much fervor as the most frum talmid chacham.
27
Jul 22, 2009 at 05:33 AM Anonymous Says:
I have never been to Netivot, but the article states that there is very little tension between the different groups in the community. That is something to be preserved, not trampled on. the fact that the Rebeim of the city are against this action is encouraging. However, publishing a list of stores which conform with an ideal is not illegal, and is not like the Taliban and Iranian modesty squads who carry sticks to hit women, or the beating up & stone throwing squads in Yerushalayim.
28
Jul 22, 2009 at 05:21 AM m gold Says:
Does this "certification" cost money each month? if they charge, then its simple extortion, using mafia tactics and we should be outraged by these thugs hijacking "chareidi" values and using them for there personal financial gain. IF NOT, why do we all care so much???
29
Jul 22, 2009 at 04:22 AM authenticSatmar Says:
“ What kind of judaism do you practice? Just another 'ism'? Who are you fooling? You and your mind controlling taliban rabbis are a big joke! ”
I follow the torah, something that is a big inconvenience to many jews trying to live modernly.
No one is here to brainwash anyone, and everyone can do as they please. As a frum yid I can choose to shop in stores where the workers are appropriaetly dressed. That's my right to make that choice. The store owner can choose if he wants in or out. In reading the article it seems that most want in.
It is nice to see the frum use their purchasing power to create frummer lives for themselves.
30
Jul 22, 2009 at 02:45 AM shlomo zalman Says:
This is not coercion. Like the Sicilian Mafia, it is just gentle encouragement to "do the right thing". No one has to oblige. I'm sure that some of these store owners will actually enjoy swimming with the fishes. Much cooler than the heat of Netivot.
The frum veldt is coming loose at the hinges and there isn't anyone to stop them.
31
Jul 22, 2009 at 02:10 AM Anonymous Says:
For all of those posters who are standing up for the Torah and Tznius, kol hakavod. However, at the end of the day, the events described in the article are the acts of a few konaiim without the haskamah of the local Charedi leadership, or for that matter, the approval of any Gadol. Just because the gedolim support tznius generally, does not mean they would approve this. Every case needs to be examined carefully and brought to real gedolim (or the mara d'atra) for psak. What is the value of defending one halacha if you are going to undermine the halachic system in the process?
32
Jul 22, 2009 at 02:06 AM Bava Basra Says:
We all know how dangerous extremities can be. So here is my spin on things for what it's worth... Yes, it is true that immodesty poisons one's thoughts and therefore one should avoid such at all costs. Shopkeepers should be educated on such topics so they too can participate in helping eradicate immodesty from our communities. Having said that I must add that those coercing others forcefully are defeating the purpose. Such behavior only ricochets and ends up hurting those who perpetrate such wild acts. On the other hand those of you out there who have sunk so deep in this material world and no longer can differentiate right from wrong, have no say in this matter. You have lost touch with the PINTALLEH YID. You dislike anything that suggests frumkeit. You have great disdain for B'nei Torah. All your arguments are just to make you feel good. On the day of judgment you will have to account for all your acts as well as for those thoughts that guided you to behave how you did. "V'HAYA MACHANECHA KADOSH" suggests the Torah, but YOU know better. We no longer have any shame... Dear K'lal Yisrael it is time to wake up and perfect our ways. Let us say in harmony "enough is enough"! Modesty shall become a priority in our day-to-day lives. In the merit of keeping the Torah and mitzvos stringently may we welcome Moshiach Tzidkeinu TODAY!
33
Jul 22, 2009 at 01:43 AM Fake something Says:
“ Isn't there anybody left to stand up for yiddishkeit?
Why is this site full of so many people who look to criticize every chareidi action. If you are so anti-chareidi why are you on this site.
Why can't frum people choose to be frum. If the store owner wants to be on the list then he complies and if not then so be it. There are many organizations that inspect stores for their own criteria and then publish lists. This is no different than any editorial review. The fact that police chose to investigate shows a clear anti-chareidi bias.
If someone chose to publish a list of stores open on shabbos with stickers to go along would the police be investigating?
It is becoming more obvious that there is a clear anti chareidi agenda.
For all those saying that if the chareidim just did what they were supposed to there would be no problem are like Israel and the UN that no matter what they do they are condemned. ”
"If the store owner wants to be on the list then he complies and if not then so be it."
This sentence made me laugh. I don't believe you are so innocent. Everyone knows that the next step if the guy refuses is a rock through his window or a Molotov cocktail. (Refer to Rechov Javotinsky in Bnei Brak or Ramat Beit Shemesh.
Your first sentence should have read: Isn't there anybody left to throw rocks for yiddishkeit?
34
Jul 22, 2009 at 01:14 AM Anonymous Says:
“ 10 shekels says this is being done by chozrim b'tchvah just like the taliban lady from beit shemesh, they want to undo all the chatoyim they did before by being more "frum" then FFBs ”
These are basically wannabe BT's from very bad backgrounds including those who did "tshuva" in jail to get time off their sentences. I also suspect that they're being manipulated by someone who wants to make all frum Jews look bad and to stir up tension in Netivot.
35
Jul 22, 2009 at 01:04 AM SimchaB Says:
“ I really hate to say this but this reminds me of how the Muslims treat their people. Hashem gave us the freedom of choice and while we should be following the rules it is the choice of the person. Since when do we wish bad on another jew because of his spiritual status?? what is becoming of this this is the 3 weeks there is a way to help ppl become better and this is defiantly NOT the way ”
"Freedom of choice" how does that square with makin oso makos mardus or kofin oso ad sheyomar rotzeh ani? There is bechira in private but in public under a torah system if a jew excercised his/her bechira the wrong way, Bais Din would punish him/her. Ah! but you say there is no torah system in effect, correct but it doesn't seem like you are pining for one, you seem rather content with the current secularized system. How sad that even during the 3 weeks you don't miss the Sanhedrin and B"D system!
36
Jul 22, 2009 at 12:46 AM destro613 Says:
we need to stop our religion from being taken over by head cases
37
Jul 22, 2009 at 12:20 AM Rochel Says:
"ankle-length according to jewish law" ?
not true
anyway, I believe this is bad to force and threaten the owners if their employees don't dress like chareidi women do. I'm against vaad hatznius because they sometimes go crazy like menacing people if the woman isn't dressed how they want, spitting acid or burning clothes that are not tznius enough for them...
If they think that's how women will do teshuva...
38
Jul 22, 2009 at 12:01 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Isn't there anybody left to stand up for yiddishkeit?
Why is this site full of so many people who look to criticize every chareidi action. If you are so anti-chareidi why are you on this site.
Why can't frum people choose to be frum. If the store owner wants to be on the list then he complies and if not then so be it. There are many organizations that inspect stores for their own criteria and then publish lists. This is no different than any editorial review. The fact that police chose to investigate shows a clear anti-chareidi bias.
If someone chose to publish a list of stores open on shabbos with stickers to go along would the police be investigating?
It is becoming more obvious that there is a clear anti chareidi agenda.
For all those saying that if the chareidim just did what they were supposed to there would be no problem are like Israel and the UN that no matter what they do they are condemned. ”
The problem is that it's clear that these people are not supported by any Rav in the community. It says that in the story. It's one thing if they are following what a Rav told them to do, but it's quite another to decide and stam go out on their own and harass people. (This is besides the fact that harassing people is illegal, and obviously anti-halacha.) If the charaeidim are so worried about it, let them move to Yerushalayim or Bnai Brak.
39
Jul 21, 2009 at 11:39 PM KJ Man Says:
This people have a list whom the chareidishe comunity should support if they think that this workers don't get tzeniosdig they won't advertise them what's the big deal in KJ they keep on sending out flyers not to take the children to wall mart and gas stations in town because ther is lots of pritzos going.on
40
Jul 21, 2009 at 11:37 PM berel Says:
#21 yes, he's practicing the right judaism....the gemmorah says and its pakened in hlichos yom tov 529 seuf 4 'it i incumbent of beth din to have atrols on yom to see that there is no lewd conduct on yom tov' (loose translation) i can ee you dont suscribe to such judaism...
41
Jul 21, 2009 at 11:28 PM berel Says:
#15 that is not right , we have a responsibility al pi torah to admonish if one is desecrating a mitzvah ,'kol yisroel areivim zeh la zeh'..but i'm not talking about this in particular..torah is not a democracy and you dont have the freedom to do as you please..and if you know otherwise you should not give your anti torah views on a torah tue site..
42
Jul 21, 2009 at 11:18 PM A Golus Yid Says:
Since when is it tzniyusdig to go into the store, check out how the workers are dressed, and then threaten the owner? These are deviants themselves (besides being extreme, violent, mechalalei shem shamayim) who have to stare at the women's mode of dress before saying how immodest they are!
43
Jul 21, 2009 at 11:15 PM dovy Says:
I used to live in Netivot, for a short while, and at that time (8 years ago) there were very few charedim there. It was a very secular city with a large population of Russian immigrants (many not jewish) and many traditional sefardim with various levels of observance. I find it hard to believe that today 25% of the city is charedi, unless a large demographic shift occured over the past few years. I also find it hard that these b.t.s thought they could be succesful with these antics in a mixed city like Netivot, it sure aint Beit Shemesh!
44
Jul 21, 2009 at 11:15 PM Anonymous Says:
Something about this article doesn't ring true.
45
Jul 21, 2009 at 11:10 PM Anonymous Says:
“ 10 shekels says this is being done by chozrim b'tchvah just like the taliban lady from beit shemesh, they want to undo all the chatoyim they did before by being more "frum" then FFBs ”
This is not a nice post at all and during the nine days no less. A Jew is a Jew is a Jew. We all literally have a part of Hashem inside of us. It's a huge mitzvah to recognize this.
The Torah says that where a Bal Tshuva stands even a Tazdik can't reach such a high level. I have nothing but the highest admiration for a Bal Tshuva. May they be blessed by Hashem.
46
Jul 21, 2009 at 11:08 PM A Frum MD Says:
“ Isn't there anybody left to stand up for yiddishkeit?
Why is this site full of so many people who look to criticize every chareidi action. If you are so anti-chareidi why are you on this site.
Why can't frum people choose to be frum. If the store owner wants to be on the list then he complies and if not then so be it. There are many organizations that inspect stores for their own criteria and then publish lists. This is no different than any editorial review. The fact that police chose to investigate shows a clear anti-chareidi bias.
If someone chose to publish a list of stores open on shabbos with stickers to go along would the police be investigating?
It is becoming more obvious that there is a clear anti chareidi agenda.
For all those saying that if the chareidim just did what they were supposed to there would be no problem are like Israel and the UN that no matter what they do they are condemned. ”
People can choose to be what ever they wish. The problem exists when those people start dictating their beliefs upon others & do it with the threat of violence or cocercion by financial ruination. By one not condoning your terrorist methods certainly is not to be construed as not standing up for Yiddishkeit, nor is it a condemnation of Chareidim. There is a correct & proper way to effect change, terrorism is never the correct nor proper way. And by the way Mr. Authentic Satmar, I am Shomer Torah Mitzvah, I work for a living trying to heal people using the knowledge that HaShem has chosen to allow me to have and a great portion of those lives are Charedi, I don't have a beard and I dress in modern lavoosh, perhaps they should seek another Doc to treat them, because I will not tell the nursing staff or aides to stop wearing scrubs to do their jobs. In fact they would not be able to do their jobs properly if they were wearing old style nurses uniforms (skirts) which by the way are much less tznias than scrub suits. So why don't you go tell all the female Doc's and nurses in all the hospitals and Doctors offices that you are not going to use those hospitals because they wear PANTS and if they want your business they will have to change their uniforms.Perhaps if you would take a harder look at the sexual abuse that takes place within the community you would be less worried about what a clerk in a store wears. And please note I have the highest regard for the majority of the Charedi community just not the terrorist segments.
47
Jul 21, 2009 at 11:03 PM Anonymous Says:
“ what does this posuk have to do with the price of chulent in bnai brak...did someone teach you a yiddeshe vert that you are proud and showing off ”
hi genuis if you would of transalted the possuk instead of assuming if its in hebrew it has nothing to do with you you would understand that,that is the possuk wich talks about be eady for a surprise tznius hurray you figured it out since we do what hashem says which we know what he says from the passuk we have to make sure people dont get enadangered
48
Jul 21, 2009 at 10:59 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I really hate to say this but this reminds me of how the Muslims treat their people. Hashem gave us the freedom of choice and while we should be following the rules it is the choice of the person. Since when do we wish bad on another jew because of his spiritual status?? what is becoming of this this is the 3 weeks there is a way to help ppl become better and this is defiantly NOT the way ”
huh first of all ever heard of kal yesrael areivem zeh lzeh we are all responsible for each other secondly no one here was wishing bad they were simply saying until you remove the dangers from your store you wont be on our list so no will get hurt like the building code you cant say freedom of choice i can build however i want freedom doesnt include the freedom to endanger others
49
Jul 21, 2009 at 10:58 PM Anonymous Says:
“ How about comparing the investigators to the germans going after yidden for keeping the torah?
those patrols did nothing violent, no physical damage, they want that a torah observant jew should be able to keep the torah, and stores that meet the torah laws. ”
It is a blatant and illegal restraint of trade focsing on the religous beliefs of th owner rather than focuing on the products they offer and their price competitiveness.
50
Jul 22, 2009 at 07:16 AM Theisraeli Says:
This group is an amazing thing! Too bad if they have to do the dirty work. Those of you criticizing them where probably never here in israel and foot have any idea how bad things are here.
51
Jul 22, 2009 at 07:13 AM Anonymous Says:
“ What kind of judaism do you practice? Just another 'ism'? Who are you fooling? You and your mind controlling taliban rabbis are a big joke! ”
Judaism is bound by Torah and shulchan aruch, not by amei haaretz and empty heads.
52
Jul 22, 2009 at 07:11 AM Anonymous Says:
To all commentators condemning those choshuva askonim and mekadhsei hashem, now and always.
Before ww2 there was a jewish theatre/bar opened in a town in poland they had movies and also mixed dancing etc. r"l.
so one of the great gedolim called over one of the founders of this filthy place, and told him, I will not ask you now why you opened this bar of tumeh and zenus, "I just want to know what big aveira did you do that you were rewarded with such a harsh punishment - to open this filthy place".
same goes to all commentators that are always here to protect filth and evil, and always bash against the ehrlich yidden struggling in golus to remain yidden.
53
Jul 22, 2009 at 07:04 AM Anonymous Says:
There is no harassment in their peaceful action, nothing illegal, and they do have the encouragement and haskomos from gedolei yisroel throughout EY.
Those willing to lead a clean torah lifestyle have the choice to cooperate with them, those who want a modern/secular lifestyle and love to see women half naked should absolutely not cooperate with those tzadikim.
54
Jul 22, 2009 at 07:00 AM Anonymous Says:
What a beautiful thing those tznios encouragers are doing! how great, in such a world today where we get used to bump in even unintentionally in so much shmutz, atleast some people have a nice goal in life to encourage kedushe and a clean life standard for those who want it.
55
Jul 22, 2009 at 06:57 AM Anonymous Says:
" we should be thankful to such a chevra, they are saving lives and neshamas"
No. They are destroying the businesses and parnassah of ehrleche yiddin and will be punished for their deeds, if not by the civil courts, than by the true dayan emes.
56
Jul 22, 2009 at 02:17 AM oh please! Says:
the taliban make sure that women that are not completely covered are beaten
the sheikhs carry out honour killings to women who have a slip of flesh showing
us Jews threaten decent workers to boycott their stores and ruin their parnassah because the garments of their employees are not up to our standards.
to the holier than thou bigshot who threatened the man at the gas station: how do you like being on a list with taliban and sheikhs?
57
Jul 22, 2009 at 07:40 AM berel Says:
#29 i'm not going into whether they are right or wrong, but what you say is out of ignorance. al pi torah you are not allowed to go where you want and have free chice, the gemmorah says on such subjects 'ee icka darkai acrina rahsha hu' if a man has a choice to do as you please. we are not free, we are 'avodim lemokom' (for those who feel that way, others do it because 'ahavas hamokom'). So, if one has a choice to go a path that one will see immodesty and bring on him lewd thoughts or a path that he wont be nicshel with seeing what is assur and he chooses to go in the immodest path he is a rasho' this is a gemmorah sanherin and paskened in S'U. Most posters are unfortunately ,a 'little' influenced with the secular (tamay) socoiety they live in so their postings are accordingly.
58
Jul 22, 2009 at 07:38 AM Alex Says:
For all of you who think that these haredim are doing the right thing by intimidating business owners Al Capone style, I propse a three-state solution. I would love to see how long these lunatics would last on their own. I bet their part of Israel will turn into to Afghanistan-style country pretty soon - ripe with honor killings, no music, burning of libraries, etc.
59
Jul 22, 2009 at 07:30 AM Anonymous Says:
“ There is no harassment in their peaceful action, nothing illegal, and they do have the encouragement and haskomos from gedolei yisroel throughout EY.
Those willing to lead a clean torah lifestyle have the choice to cooperate with them, those who want a modern/secular lifestyle and love to see women half naked should absolutely not cooperate with those tzadikim. ”
These are not "tzadikim" going around and making threats. They are perverted hoodulums who have been disowned and rejected even by the Chareidi rabbonim as the article clearly states. Hopefully, they will be kicked out of the stores on their XXXs and told not tocome back and ever again make such threats to lawful jewish storekeepers and merchants.
60
Jul 22, 2009 at 07:43 AM berel Says:
#30 ..and from which velt are you?
61
Jul 22, 2009 at 07:43 AM FAL Says:
If these 'rational' people find that they are not doing their job well enough, perhaps they can/should call Ahmadinejad and his people of the 'peaceful religion' and he and his people would be more than happy to show them how to abuse, i mean treat the people.
62
Jul 22, 2009 at 07:47 AM berel Says:
#42 goules yid? i'm afraid your in the real goulus, goulas hanefesh
63
Jul 22, 2009 at 07:58 AM Anonymous Says:
“ "coerce" by seatbelts and driving in the mountains noone has a problem with "coerce"ing why because everyone understands the danger so if everyone in the mountains understands who are we "coercing" the teenagers who arent smart enough to fully understand the danger also by seatbelts if everyone really understood the danger of a accident they would wear it (just ask someone who was in a accident)so by tznius also we (most bloggers on vin)dont understand the danger do you know what happens when someone looks at pritzus do you fully understand the problem that results no both because we dont know fully the reason hashem said this mitzva but we trust the one who made the world that he knows how to run it and secondly because we are influnced by other ideas not just by ideas from the torah and we use these to form our thoughts on if it is right or wrong we must only listen to the gedolim who are only influnced by the torah and if here they are trying to keep us safe we assume they know better like when the goverment makes a safety code on a building most people here said you must listen to the t even if you dont understand why it is needed the gedolim know best ”
So in a dispute between two adults the way to persuade the other party is with violence? Haa! And if someone will do it to a charedi you will call him a Nazi.
64
Jul 22, 2009 at 07:54 AM zev Says:
These zealots ignore"Drocheho darcei noam,vchol nesivoseho sholom"
65
Jul 22, 2009 at 08:16 AM Anonymous Says:
It's a known Consapt that the people who are busy with this are the biggest pigs!
66
Jul 22, 2009 at 08:41 AM shmilku Says:
“ "coerce" by seatbelts and driving in the mountains noone has a problem with "coerce"ing why because everyone understands the danger so if everyone in the mountains understands who are we "coercing" the teenagers who arent smart enough to fully understand the danger also by seatbelts if everyone really understood the danger of a accident they would wear it (just ask someone who was in a accident)so by tznius also we (most bloggers on vin)dont understand the danger do you know what happens when someone looks at pritzus do you fully understand the problem that results no both because we dont know fully the reason hashem said this mitzva but we trust the one who made the world that he knows how to run it and secondly because we are influnced by other ideas not just by ideas from the torah and we use these to form our thoughts on if it is right or wrong we must only listen to the gedolim who are only influnced by the torah and if here they are trying to keep us safe we assume they know better like when the goverment makes a safety code on a building most people here said you must listen to the t even if you dont understand why it is needed the gedolim know best ”
this much i know if everyone gets their way then no one will be safe you mention hashem youre reasoning is childish according to you no one is trustworthy youre the judge jury and executioner this kind of thinking is more dangerous then any immodest dressing
67
Jul 22, 2009 at 08:34 AM AuthenticSatmar Says:
“ People can choose to be what ever they wish. The problem exists when those people start dictating their beliefs upon others & do it with the threat of violence or cocercion by financial ruination. By one not condoning your terrorist methods certainly is not to be construed as not standing up for Yiddishkeit, nor is it a condemnation of Chareidim. There is a correct & proper way to effect change, terrorism is never the correct nor proper way. And by the way Mr. Authentic Satmar, I am Shomer Torah Mitzvah, I work for a living trying to heal people using the knowledge that HaShem has chosen to allow me to have and a great portion of those lives are Charedi, I don't have a beard and I dress in modern lavoosh, perhaps they should seek another Doc to treat them, because I will not tell the nursing staff or aides to stop wearing scrubs to do their jobs. In fact they would not be able to do their jobs properly if they were wearing old style nurses uniforms (skirts) which by the way are much less tznias than scrub suits. So why don't you go tell all the female Doc's and nurses in all the hospitals and Doctors offices that you are not going to use those hospitals because they wear PANTS and if they want your business they will have to change their uniforms.Perhaps if you would take a harder look at the sexual abuse that takes place within the community you would be less worried about what a clerk in a store wears. And please note I have the highest regard for the majority of the Charedi community just not the terrorist segments. ”
Reply to Frum MD:
Firstly, thank you for your great service to mankind and the frum people specially.
That said, contrary to popular belief, 'Authentic' chasidim have no issues with those more modern. The Satmar Rebbe R' Yoel Teitelbaum treated every jew with great respect. Any jew that follows the torah way requires our respect, and those that don't need to be treated as kindly as possible to get them to follow the torah. Any chusid who will harass you for a shaved beard or small yarmulka is not a 'authentic' chusid but rather a misguided soul.
As for the dress in your clinic, there is a big difference in a nurse/pa in scrubs vs. a mini skirt behind a counter. Most people will not demand that your nurses dress in skirts vs. pants, because its the uncovered skin that's of primary concern. Also, had a large group of your customer base requested that regardless of the basic halacha they want a staff in skirts and not pants, then you would have to make a business decision as to whether or not to comply. The same would be if say you had no a/c in your office and your customers complained. Would they be called intimidating if they told you they won't patronize you if there is no a/c? Why if there request is based on their level of torah observance do you suddenly feel intimidated?
68
Jul 22, 2009 at 08:25 AM Izzy Says:
if you let the chardim into govt the will turned into Saudi Arabia. This is just a preview.
69
Jul 22, 2009 at 09:09 AM A Frum MD Says:
“ huh first of all ever heard of kal yesrael areivem zeh lzeh we are all responsible for each other secondly no one here was wishing bad they were simply saying until you remove the dangers from your store you wont be on our list so no will get hurt like the building code you cant say freedom of choice i can build however i want freedom doesnt include the freedom to endanger others ”
They are simply saying the same thing that the Arab countries said for years to world wide companies. If you sell to Israel we will not buy from you! What is the difference. Coercion is the same no matter who is the party delivering it! You would condem the Arabs for their boycott but for you to do the same to Jewish business owners is ok! Wow my Tate sure raised me differently & am I glad. We must show our brothers & sisters the correct way through education and midos tovos, not through strong arm tactics. Where have you gone wrong, have you forgotten the greatest principal Yiddishket has to offer, AHAVAS YISROEL! When we all work on the fullfilment of this precept then perhaps we will merit the coming of Moshiach. In these trying 9 days, please HaShem do not let any calamities befall your children Klal Yisroel. Let us know only peace & love towards each other. And please send a Refuah Shuloyma to all those Choleh Yisroel who anxoiusly await your help.
70
Jul 22, 2009 at 09:39 AM Anonymous Says:
“ it would be nice to have a specail coat or jacket like the docs & nurses its modest classy and it advertises the business ar the same time ”
Give them an employee discount like Macy's
71
Jul 22, 2009 at 09:38 AM Cadd9 Says:
“ Isn't there anybody left to stand up for yiddishkeit?
Why is this site full of so many people who look to criticize every chareidi action. If you are so anti-chareidi why are you on this site.
Why can't frum people choose to be frum. If the store owner wants to be on the list then he complies and if not then so be it. There are many organizations that inspect stores for their own criteria and then publish lists. This is no different than any editorial review. The fact that police chose to investigate shows a clear anti-chareidi bias.
If someone chose to publish a list of stores open on shabbos with stickers to go along would the police be investigating?
It is becoming more obvious that there is a clear anti chareidi agenda.
For all those saying that if the chareidim just did what they were supposed to there would be no problem are like Israel and the UN that no matter what they do they are condemned. ”
Some of us are proudly chareidi but are in a professional environment all day. Some of us work with Israeli companies and find it very hard to defend the Chareidi antics. When there are riots over a Shabbos parking lot we try to explain how supremely important Shabbos is to us. We then have nothing to say when riots start over an arrest of a woman . We can't explain why the mishmeres Hatznius beats women for their dress,yet allow child molesters to continue working in the community (One of the founders of the Mishmeres Hatznius was a child molester, his son wrote a book about it.)
How can we blame the mayor of Jerusalem for his acts when Chassidim campaigned for him by going into secular neighborhoods and saying Porush is planning "religious coercion". Yet these same people are now protesting .Is Nekama and influence the pramount virtues of Judiasm or is it Shabbos?
Maybe you feel that you can withstand the constant attacks on Charedim in the outside world. I can't. I find myself constantly on the defensive from secular Jews, national religious etc.
i am willing to bet that as an "Authentic Satmar" you coudn't even defend the V'yoel Moshe . Not that it's indefensible. You have never heard the other sides arguments and questions. They have heard your arguments.
72
Jul 22, 2009 at 09:38 AM Anonymous Says:
“ In many towns in the south and midwest, the churches publish listings of stores and service providers who are also "born again christians" with a strong suggestion that those stores be patronized. The behavior of these thugs is disgusting but at least some of the orthodox rabbonim have spoken against it (but won't allow their names to be quoted for fear of offending these thugs). ”
Having lived in the South I don't remember any of those groups making threats to ruin the business financially. They simply let the market do that or not. No music at a gas station? Get serious. Teh filthy "newspapers" I agree with. But I do have to wonder why someone with a tzinusdik clothing store would have immodest sales women.
I have a suggestion. Give these sales positions, like in the housewares stores, obviously not the wormn's clothing ones, to Yeshiva students and let them earn their parnassa. HIre their wives for the female clothing positions.
73
Jul 22, 2009 at 09:37 AM Anonymous Says:
“ It's a known Consapt that the people who are busy with this are the biggest pigs! ”
I'm in shock! I just can't believe what I'm seeing here, people are just drawing up a list of stores that meet yiddish and torah codes of law, and a few askonim are trying to give it out to the frumme yiden that don't want to be nichshal c"v with aveiros, and so many comments attacking them.
WHY? why is your hatred to the torah and observant yiden so high and uncontrollable? why will you always stand up to bash and condemn everything that a ehrliche yid does?
When i read the comments of jerusalem about the riots and violence, I thought some people are so noble and delicate about other people they just can't take it.
Now i see it's one big bunch of sonei hashem and sonei yisroel! you hate the torah, you hate those observing the torah, and thats why you're always here to throw bombs at all ehrlich yiden.
74
Jul 22, 2009 at 09:14 AM chaim S Says:
these criminally insane ignorant savages must be stopped at all cost,
these gangsters,who are obssesed with women all day long,are the biggest perverts
they are the ones who molest children in the schools and the mikvahs.
they are no better than the modest police in saudi arabia and in iran.
they should all be rounded up and deported to those countries where they will feel much at home
75
Jul 22, 2009 at 09:48 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Reply to Frum MD:
Firstly, thank you for your great service to mankind and the frum people specially.
That said, contrary to popular belief, 'Authentic' chasidim have no issues with those more modern. The Satmar Rebbe R' Yoel Teitelbaum treated every jew with great respect. Any jew that follows the torah way requires our respect, and those that don't need to be treated as kindly as possible to get them to follow the torah. Any chusid who will harass you for a shaved beard or small yarmulka is not a 'authentic' chusid but rather a misguided soul.
As for the dress in your clinic, there is a big difference in a nurse/pa in scrubs vs. a mini skirt behind a counter. Most people will not demand that your nurses dress in skirts vs. pants, because its the uncovered skin that's of primary concern. Also, had a large group of your customer base requested that regardless of the basic halacha they want a staff in skirts and not pants, then you would have to make a business decision as to whether or not to comply. The same would be if say you had no a/c in your office and your customers complained. Would they be called intimidating if they told you they won't patronize you if there is no a/c? Why if there request is based on their level of torah observance do you suddenly feel intimidated? ”
If these comments were made by a large component of the practice and was done is a respectful manner as you described, then of course we would take it under advisement and come to a decision. The problem exists when one individual who claims to represent the entire Klal attempts to strong arm individual owners with threats and intimidation. Reasonable and responsible business owner will always listen to reasonable requests by their clientele, no one wants to lose business.
76
Jul 22, 2009 at 10:30 AM AuthenticSatmar Says:
“ Some of us are proudly chareidi but are in a professional environment all day. Some of us work with Israeli companies and find it very hard to defend the Chareidi antics. When there are riots over a Shabbos parking lot we try to explain how supremely important Shabbos is to us. We then have nothing to say when riots start over an arrest of a woman . We can't explain why the mishmeres Hatznius beats women for their dress,yet allow child molesters to continue working in the community (One of the founders of the Mishmeres Hatznius was a child molester, his son wrote a book about it.)
How can we blame the mayor of Jerusalem for his acts when Chassidim campaigned for him by going into secular neighborhoods and saying Porush is planning "religious coercion". Yet these same people are now protesting .Is Nekama and influence the pramount virtues of Judiasm or is it Shabbos?
Maybe you feel that you can withstand the constant attacks on Charedim in the outside world. I can't. I find myself constantly on the defensive from secular Jews, national religious etc.
i am willing to bet that as an "Authentic Satmar" you coudn't even defend the V'yoel Moshe . Not that it's indefensible. You have never heard the other sides arguments and questions. They have heard your arguments. ”
And why do you assume that just because I call myself satmar, that I have no connection in the secular world. I happen to be college educated with a masters in Business Management, and working experience as a consultant to 40 of the Fortune 50 companies.
That said, there is no reason you need to defend anyone's actions. If you are an example of yiddishkeit, the seculars will see clearly the truth and appreciate the beauty. As someone who travels the world for business, I have had many opportunities to present "authentic" yiddishkeit, and make a kiddush hashem.
When you work among goyim, and you try to blend in - by dressing that way, going to clubs, eating "only vegetarian" at meetings, shaking hands with women, etc - then you have a hard time explaining your yiddishkeit, as the goy sees the hypocrisy. If you are religious throughout, you will see those around you making accommodations.
If you were to have a meeting with an Arab sheik, and you were told that he has specific customs, would you not accommodate them? When you travel to the Asia, are you not tuned into their customs and ways? When you do business with South America are you not sensitive to their ways? Why as yidden do we need to compromise our ways?
77
Jul 22, 2009 at 10:28 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Isn't there anybody left to stand up for yiddishkeit?
Why is this site full of so many people who look to criticize every chareidi action. If you are so anti-chareidi why are you on this site.
Why can't frum people choose to be frum. If the store owner wants to be on the list then he complies and if not then so be it. There are many organizations that inspect stores for their own criteria and then publish lists. This is no different than any editorial review. The fact that police chose to investigate shows a clear anti-chareidi bias.
If someone chose to publish a list of stores open on shabbos with stickers to go along would the police be investigating?
It is becoming more obvious that there is a clear anti chareidi agenda.
For all those saying that if the chareidim just did what they were supposed to there would be no problem are like Israel and the UN that no matter what they do they are condemned. ”
No, the police chose to investigation because extortion is illegal. Is that a hard concept for you? People, including business owners, have a right to freedom of religious expression. If you don't like their standards, don't shop there, but you have no right to threaten anyone.
78
Jul 22, 2009 at 09:54 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Having lived in the South I don't remember any of those groups making threats to ruin the business financially. They simply let the market do that or not. No music at a gas station? Get serious. Teh filthy "newspapers" I agree with. But I do have to wonder why someone with a tzinusdik clothing store would have immodest sales women.
I have a suggestion. Give these sales positions, like in the housewares stores, obviously not the wormn's clothing ones, to Yeshiva students and let them earn their parnassa. HIre their wives for the female clothing positions. ”
Great Idea, the problem is they don't want to WORK. They prefer to schnore
79
Jul 22, 2009 at 09:48 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Did u ever hear of "veloi sosuru acharei levavchem veacharei eineichem"?
it's not s choishen mishpot, it's a posuk in d torah. ”
torah also says that thuggery is also assur .
80
Jul 22, 2009 at 09:51 AM Anonymous Says:
“ "ankle-length according to jewish law" ?
not true
anyway, I believe this is bad to force and threaten the owners if their employees don't dress like chareidi women do. I'm against vaad hatznius because they sometimes go crazy like menacing people if the woman isn't dressed how they want, spitting acid or burning clothes that are not tznius enough for them...
If they think that's how women will do teshuva... ”
Our ankles are to be covered, That is Halacha. Sheer natural color stockings don't qualify. However, sleeves may stop just below the elbow. They needen't b eto the wrist B"H in this heat.
Would the manufacturers of modest clothing please realize that we older ladies from cooler climates don't tolerate the heat very well. I am desperate for affordable Natural fiber modest tops that also fit my mature figure, man tailored shirts don't and they're, uh, MAN tailored.
Large but not plus sized. I simply cannot tolerate more than one layer on top. Add a scarf that keeps heat in my head (our heads retain/lose 25% of our body heat) and I barely go out in Summer.
someone needs to look into the business possibilities.
81
Jul 22, 2009 at 11:02 AM Motti Says:
I must say that I aggree with those guys! Halacha is Halacha and there's a dress code people should adhere to.
The problem is nobody dears to speak up and those who do are instantly called extremists, etc...
We are to worried to be politicly correct and are affected by adapting goyishe habits, like complaining against those who have the guts to stand up for Torah values.
It's time that people wake up and, especially in Eretz Yisroel, people realize that they have a responsability.
Sometimes I feel it would be better for the Arabs to take over in the middle east, nobody would say anything if they would inforce a certain way of dressing.
Wake up guys and stop finding excuses.
82
Jul 22, 2009 at 11:24 AM Bava Basra Says:
“ #29 i'm not going into whether they are right or wrong, but what you say is out of ignorance. al pi torah you are not allowed to go where you want and have free chice, the gemmorah says on such subjects 'ee icka darkai acrina rahsha hu' if a man has a choice to do as you please. we are not free, we are 'avodim lemokom' (for those who feel that way, others do it because 'ahavas hamokom'). So, if one has a choice to go a path that one will see immodesty and bring on him lewd thoughts or a path that he wont be nicshel with seeing what is assur and he chooses to go in the immodest path he is a rasho' this is a gemmorah sanherin and paskened in S'U. Most posters are unfortunately ,a 'little' influenced with the secular (tamay) socoiety they live in so their postings are accordingly. ”
Your quote is right on. We all know that Ma'amar Chazal. It seems though that you are missing my point. Although I have to choose properly where I go and look, (and as the Torah suggests "UVACHARTA BACHAYIM..") nevertheless there is a responsibility on ALL jews not to be Machshshil others. I believe that you daven everyday and ask Hashem "LO LIDAY NISAYON" for if there are temptations one can easily succumb to his bad inclinations. And about that E Ika darka acharina you mentioned? Well, we sometimes innocently enter shops and other eatablishments and have to see what we see... So in fact we may need someone to caution us where NOT to go...
83
Jul 22, 2009 at 12:34 PM Anonymous Says:
Here is the problem as I see it
#80 says sheer stockings aren't good enough. But many many disagree. There are also those that allow the lower leg to be bare. There are many shitos on what is and what is not tznuis. It is not clearly delineated in the SA. There are those that say a tefach above the elbow is ok. It is up to the individual with their own rabbonim to decide, not some tznuis police.
84
Jul 22, 2009 at 01:36 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Our ankles are to be covered, That is Halacha. Sheer natural color stockings don't qualify. However, sleeves may stop just below the elbow. They needen't b eto the wrist B"H in this heat.
Would the manufacturers of modest clothing please realize that we older ladies from cooler climates don't tolerate the heat very well. I am desperate for affordable Natural fiber modest tops that also fit my mature figure, man tailored shirts don't and they're, uh, MAN tailored.
Large but not plus sized. I simply cannot tolerate more than one layer on top. Add a scarf that keeps heat in my head (our heads retain/lose 25% of our body heat) and I barely go out in Summer.
someone needs to look into the business possibilities. ”
"I barely go out in Summer. someone needs to look into the business possibilities [of supplying] "modest clothing for plus size, mature figures'.
Reply » It sounds more like you need to look into the opportunity of getting outside and doing some exercise do lose that "plus size mature figure" and regain your health and vitality. Stop worrying about chas va'chalilah your elbow or ankle might be showing and worry more about your heart stop working. This obcession with Tznius at the expense of physical fitness and wellness is the real chilul hashem.
P.S. You will also save lots of money by not having to buy "plus sizes".
85
Jul 22, 2009 at 02:31 PM Misnaged Says:
“ "Freedom of choice" how does that square with makin oso makos mardus or kofin oso ad sheyomar rotzeh ani? There is bechira in private but in public under a torah system if a jew excercised his/her bechira the wrong way, Bais Din would punish him/her. Ah! but you say there is no torah system in effect, correct but it doesn't seem like you are pining for one, you seem rather content with the current secularized system. How sad that even during the 3 weeks you don't miss the Sanhedrin and B"D system! ”
Even though we miss the Sanhedrion and the B'D system does not mean that we are allowed to arrogate to ourselves their perogitives. Furthermore, A Klal Yisroel in which B'D enforced the all the Lavim has not existed since Yetzias Mitzraim. The Theocracy you dream of has NEVER existed in Klal Yisroel and never will, EVEN IN YAMOS HAMSHIACH.
86
Jul 22, 2009 at 04:23 PM Anonymous Says:
“ No, the police chose to investigation because extortion is illegal. Is that a hard concept for you? People, including business owners, have a right to freedom of religious expression. If you don't like their standards, don't shop there, but you have no right to threaten anyone. ”
My dear friend! there is no extortion involved here, diabetics are entitled to know which foods are sugar free and which foods are poison to them! vegetarians are entitled to know which food is safe for them and which one is not.
Shomrei torah umitzvos are entitled to know which stores are safe and which ones are poison!
87
Jul 22, 2009 at 06:51 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I'm in shock! I just can't believe what I'm seeing here, people are just drawing up a list of stores that meet yiddish and torah codes of law, and a few askonim are trying to give it out to the frumme yiden that don't want to be nichshal c"v with aveiros, and so many comments attacking them.
WHY? why is your hatred to the torah and observant yiden so high and uncontrollable? why will you always stand up to bash and condemn everything that a ehrliche yid does?
When i read the comments of jerusalem about the riots and violence, I thought some people are so noble and delicate about other people they just can't take it.
Now i see it's one big bunch of sonei hashem and sonei yisroel! you hate the torah, you hate those observing the torah, and thats why you're always here to throw bombs at all ehrlich yiden. ”
You're right, and I thought of that point as well. But #65 do has a point too.
88
Jul 22, 2009 at 06:41 PM anonymous Says:
“ My dear friend! there is no extortion involved here, diabetics are entitled to know which foods are sugar free and which foods are poison to them! vegetarians are entitled to know which food is safe for them and which one is not.
Shomrei torah umitzvos are entitled to know which stores are safe and which ones are poison! ”
shomrei torah umitzvos how about being a mensch
89
Jul 22, 2009 at 08:42 PM Bava Basra Says:
“ shomrei torah umitzvos how about being a mensch ”
1) Being a mensch is subjective... In some countries burping after a meal is "menschlich". In other countries belching (anytime) is at best frowned upon... In Judaism a mensch is defined by his stringencies in Mitzvos. (Yes you still have to ace Bein adam l'chaveiro, but you get my drift)
2) I find that those individuals who fight everything that smells "too religious" don't rate too high in BEIN ADAM L'CHAVEIRO either. (A good analogy is PETA who fight for animal rights yet have no issue with burning people out of their homes etc. etc.)
So here's to your being "mensches"...
90
Jul 22, 2009 at 09:53 PM Anonymous Says:
I highly applaud this mishmeres hatznius of Netivot. You make a great kiddush Hashem by helping observant yidden go on the beautiful Torah path without being nichshal with improper deeds as indecent views and worse.
And even more by doing it without any illegal tricks, no extortion, no threatenings, just a clean "white list" of stores that comply with the Torah!
It's a free world, all stores have the option to comply even if they didn't until now, and those freya who don't want to comply should reach out to those customer that "appreciate" public nudity and immoral dress code.
91
Jul 23, 2009 at 02:20 AM berel Says:
#85 please dont show your ignorance.what abuot malkos for chyvay lavin, what about the gemmorah, 'loshoneh ala cheyveh lavin avol mitzvos essay makin oso at shteatzy nafsho, what about the gemmorah paskened in S'U hichos yomtov 529 seuf 5 loose trans. 'bes din should send on yom tov "morality police' out on the streets and parks to check if peole dont behave in lewd conducts..' no, judaism is not a democracy (otherwise its nothingas per MO and down ..the taryag was not given on sini so just whoever doesnt have what to do with his time will be able to occupy himselve with something to do. your name aptly describes you , misnagid...misnagid the torah
92
Jul 23, 2009 at 05:06 PM Bava Basra Says:
“ shomrei torah umitzvos how about being a mensch ”
1) Being a mensch is subjective... In some countries burping after a meal is "menschlich". In other countries belching (anytime) is at best frowned upon... In Judaism a mensch is defined by his stringencies in Mitzvos. (Yes you still have to ace Bein adam l'chaveiro, but you get my drift)
2) I find that those individuals who fight everything that smells "too religious" don't rate too high in BEIN ADAM L'CHAVEIRO either. (A good analogy is PETA who fight for animal rights yet have no issue with burning people out of their homes etc. etc.)
So here's to your being "mensches"...