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New Jersey - Legal experts: Entrapment Claim Will be Tough for Suspects in Corruption Scandal |
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New Jersey - The affidavit sounds like something out of a "Godfather" movie.
"If anyone ever asks you, you didn't see me," says Solomon Dwek, already facing federal fraud charges and now wearing a wire as an undercover informant for the government. "You understand? No bankruptcy, no bank schnookie, no nothing. Don't say nothin' to nobody."
The long-running criminal sting being run with the help of Dwek broke open this week with the arrest of 44 people - including five rabbis, two state legislators and three mayors - charged in a far-ranging money laundering and political corruption scheme.
But lawyers for many of the accused claim Dwek set up others to get himself out of a jam - a claim of entrapment that others say rarely holds up in court.
"He is just another guy trying to buy his way out of trouble, said attorney Daniel Welsh, who is representing Assemblyman L. Harvey Smith (D-Hudson). "When people face jail time, they do a lot of unscrupulous things."
Smith, who was arraigned in federal court Friday on corruption charges just tipped his head back and rolled his eyes when asked about the man at the center of the case, but would not say anything as he walked from then courthouse in Newark.
Terry Ridley, attorney for Lori Serrano, former chairwoman of the Jersey City Housing Authority, who is charged with accepting $10,000 in cash, said Dwek may have been working to please the government.
"He obviously worked with the government to set people up," said Ridley. "Certainly my feeling is that my client was caught up in this web of deception.
Michael Bachner, the lawyer for Rabbi Mordchai Fish, charged with laundering $585,000, made the same argument.
"Solomon Dwek generally used his relationship and his father's relationships to manipulate, in our opinion, innocent victims," he declared.
Legal experts and federal authorities, though, said entrapment is not a defense that will likely sway any jury.
John Farmer Jr., dean of Rutgers Law School and a former state attorney general, said entrapment is rarely used and rarely succeeds. While the complex case was built around the use of Dwek to operate the sting, he said not to assume that to be a weakness.
"He's helping the government because he's in trouble and he's not going to be believable. But the government understands those people have baggage," explained Farmer. "The key is you have to have corroboration."
Michael Drewniak, a spokesman for Acting U.S. Attorney Ralph Marra Jr., said everyone is entitled to raise any defense they see fit.
"However, we have heard the entrapment allegation time and time again and not surprisingly, it never holds up to the law," he said. "Every time it has been raised in similar circumstances, those individuals have ultimately pleaded guilty or have been convicted - in every single instance."
The investigation began with a probe into alleged money laundering by some orthodox Jewish leaders in the Syrian Sephardic communities of Deal and Brooklyn.
According to criminal complaints, the rabbis and others helped Dwek - a disgraced developer and son of a prominent rabbi who was arrested in 2006 on federal bank fraud charges that have never come to trial - hide $3 million in assets. They believed the money came from an ongoing bankruptcy case by taking checks drawn to charities and yeshivas they controlled, converting it to cash through contacts in Israel, and keeping 10 to 15 percent for the transaction.
The political corruption charges - which resulted in the arrests of two state legislators and three mayors, along with dozens of others - grew separately out of an expansion of Dwek's role as an undercover informant. Here, he assumed another name and looked to grease the way for quick approvals of development projects in Hudson County in return for big political contributions and cash payoffs.
And in the most bizarre aspect of the case, Dwek contracted to buy a kidney for $160,000 from a Brooklyn man long suspected of dealing in lucrative black-market transplants.
While Dwek's motivations will be repeatedly questioned by defense attorneys who will point to the federal fraud charges hanging over his head, the damage will come from a defendant's own words captured on video and audio tapes, said Scott Resnick, a former federal prosecutor now practicing at KattenMuchinRosenman LLP in New York.
"The reality is his voice is not there and he's not the one accepting the money," he noted.
Resnick said as the dust begins to settle, it is likely that some of those charged will cooperate, others will plead out their cases to reduce the charges against them, and others may very well be charged in new allegations that might bring new aspects to one of the most unusual cases ever seen in criminal court.
A lot will turn upon the words spoken on tape and what the tapes depict, Alan Zegas, a noted defense attorney.
"The government may introduce tapes it contends support a charge that an illegal transfer of money is taking place, but often what is taking place is ambiguous," he remarked. "For example, a person undercover may try to lead people to say certain things and that person may say 'uh-huh,' which is a standard acknowledgment that we are listening, but may not be agreement."
Still, he doubts many will opt for trial, given the surveillance tapes, and the penalties that have been meted out in recent corruption cases.
"There will be a lot of people cooperating," predicted Zegas.
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Read Comments (59) — Post Yours »
1
Jul 25, 2009 at 10:10 PM Anonymous Says:
This is going to drag on for a year or longer. If the rabbonim who were arrested don't accept a plea agreement , the trials won't start until late 2010 at the earliest.
2
Jul 25, 2009 at 10:23 PM real reason to cry Says:
It is the 9 days and I am already crying-bec I see my fellow Jews allowed themselves to get into these predicaments where greed and the almighty $ became their guiding light.I cry for the poor innocent children who see their leaders forget the morals and principles of Judaism and sell their souls for money.I work with many goyim and they just shake their anti-semetic heads.So yes, I cry because it hurts all of us.We all suffer when human organs are sold like pieces of objects and neshama has no meaning in this ugly world or trafficking for profit.How tragic and sad. Gd help us.
3
Jul 25, 2009 at 10:42 PM Anonymous Says:
It was all done by the choice of Dwek-- who he approached and who he spoke with and recorded.
He actively chose to target those 5 community leaders. In doing so, he may have been communicating that he is in his own mess because of the values they may have instilled,encouraged and reinforeced within their own communities -- that all is kosher for a dollar.
Maybe he was doing his own teshuva on all of this with his own jail sentence hanging over him and really resented those communal leaders.
4
Jul 25, 2009 at 10:53 PM Anonymous Says:
“ It is the 9 days and I am already crying-bec I see my fellow Jews allowed themselves to get into these predicaments where greed and the almighty $ became their guiding light.I cry for the poor innocent children who see their leaders forget the morals and principles of Judaism and sell their souls for money.I work with many goyim and they just shake their anti-semetic heads.So yes, I cry because it hurts all of us.We all suffer when human organs are sold like pieces of objects and neshama has no meaning in this ugly world or trafficking for profit.How tragic and sad. Gd help us. ”
Why aren't you crying that klal yisroel was punished with a mosir that had no mercy for his fellow brothers and sister? and was willing to do anything just to get away with his wrong doing? The law is law and no one should ever break it, but that doesn't give this mosir any right to be our the goverments police man especially when he is the biggest crook here and is far from being a good citizen! and to prove it look at what he has done which isn't a fraction of the all the crimes combined.
But his poor soul will pay the price maybe not today or tomorrow but it will come...
5
Jul 25, 2009 at 10:49 PM Loshon Hora Says:
Cut out greed, where did the Rabbis take money for themselves? Even cash amounts, how many times have you heard of tzedokah being dropped in a mail box or talis bag in cash form to a needy family?
This crook was able to manipulate a bank to give him 25 million without colatteral. He isn't just an informant he is a pro manipulator art con man thief. even the sounbites are very likely edited, and based on his credentials they should be thrown out of court.
Defense lawyers should also make sure an investigation in to the conduct of the FBI is carried out, and how many of them were paid of by the guy who calls himself Dweck because he can't pronounce an R, and how many were motivated by let us catch the Jews.
6
Jul 25, 2009 at 10:54 PM Anonymous Says:
“ It is the 9 days and I am already crying-bec I see my fellow Jews allowed themselves to get into these predicaments where greed and the almighty $ became their guiding light.I cry for the poor innocent children who see their leaders forget the morals and principles of Judaism and sell their souls for money.I work with many goyim and they just shake their anti-semetic heads.So yes, I cry because it hurts all of us.We all suffer when human organs are sold like pieces of objects and neshama has no meaning in this ugly world or trafficking for profit.How tragic and sad. Gd help us. ”
"We all suffer when human organs are sold like pieces of objects", Oh how disgusting, I'm sure that Mr. Rosenbaum ate these organs for supper (sarcasim).
7
Jul 25, 2009 at 10:19 PM shmiel glassman Says:
THE JOB OF THE FBI IS TO ROOT OUT CRIMINAL MINDS FROM SOCIETY
IN THESE CASES IT "SEEMS" THEY DID THE OPPOSITE
THEY USED A CRIMINAL MIND TO ENTRAP GOOD PEOPLE
CHASING GEMACHS FOR MONTHS TO PLEASE CASH A CHK.
ASKING SOMEONE TO HELP A DYING UNCLE OBTAIN A KIDNEY
A TRAGEDY ON SO MANY LEVELS -
8
Jul 25, 2009 at 11:03 PM Anonymous Says:
“ It is the 9 days and I am already crying-bec I see my fellow Jews allowed themselves to get into these predicaments where greed and the almighty $ became their guiding light.I cry for the poor innocent children who see their leaders forget the morals and principles of Judaism and sell their souls for money.I work with many goyim and they just shake their anti-semetic heads.So yes, I cry because it hurts all of us.We all suffer when human organs are sold like pieces of objects and neshama has no meaning in this ugly world or trafficking for profit.How tragic and sad. Gd help us. ”
you don't know what you're talking about - you typical self-hating jew! You sound like Obama now - who speaks on issues he admits to know nothing about. This guy wasn't 'selling organs like pieces of objects - he was selling them to people who needed organs. Do you know how many poeple die waiting on the UNOS list? thousands!!!! Does it make what he did right, not if it's illegal - but you don't even make sense for what your saying - trafficking for profit - what then is it? yes he charged for it, but he got those people organs and they are alive now because of it. It's the nine days as you say - so look into yourself a little.
9
Jul 25, 2009 at 11:03 PM Anonymous Says:
“ It is the 9 days and I am already crying-bec I see my fellow Jews allowed themselves to get into these predicaments where greed and the almighty $ became their guiding light.I cry for the poor innocent children who see their leaders forget the morals and principles of Judaism and sell their souls for money.I work with many goyim and they just shake their anti-semetic heads.So yes, I cry because it hurts all of us.We all suffer when human organs are sold like pieces of objects and neshama has no meaning in this ugly world or trafficking for profit.How tragic and sad. Gd help us. ”
you don't know what you're talking about - you typical self-hating jew! You sound like Obama now - who speaks on issues he admits to know nothing about. This guy wasn't 'selling organs like pieces of objects - he was selling them to people who needed organs. Do you know how many poeple die waiting on the UNOS list? thousands!!!! Does it make what he did right, not if it's illegal - but you don't even make sense for what your saying - trafficking for profit - what then is it? yes he charged for it, but he got those people organs and they are alive now because of it. It's the nine days as you say - so look into yourself a little.
10
Jul 25, 2009 at 11:18 PM Anonymous Says:
“ you don't know what you're talking about - you typical self-hating jew! You sound like Obama now - who speaks on issues he admits to know nothing about. This guy wasn't 'selling organs like pieces of objects - he was selling them to people who needed organs. Do you know how many poeple die waiting on the UNOS list? thousands!!!! Does it make what he did right, not if it's illegal - but you don't even make sense for what your saying - trafficking for profit - what then is it? yes he charged for it, but he got those people organs and they are alive now because of it. It's the nine days as you say - so look into yourself a little. ”
“ you don't know what you're talking about - you typical self-hating jew! You sound like Obama now - who speaks on issues he admits to know nothing about. This guy wasn't 'selling organs like pieces of objects - he was selling them to people who needed organs. Do you know how many poeple die waiting on the UNOS list? thousands!!!! Does it make what he did right, not if it's illegal - but you don't even make sense for what your saying - trafficking for profit - what then is it? yes he charged for it, but he got those people organs and they are alive now because of it. It's the nine days as you say - so look into yourself a little. ”
Why would you mix in the President into this conversation? You are nothing more them a rightwing nut.
11
Jul 25, 2009 at 11:22 PM Anonymous Says:
“ you don't know what you're talking about - you typical self-hating jew! You sound like Obama now - who speaks on issues he admits to know nothing about. This guy wasn't 'selling organs like pieces of objects - he was selling them to people who needed organs. Do you know how many poeple die waiting on the UNOS list? thousands!!!! Does it make what he did right, not if it's illegal - but you don't even make sense for what your saying - trafficking for profit - what then is it? yes he charged for it, but he got those people organs and they are alive now because of it. It's the nine days as you say - so look into yourself a little. ”
“ you don't know what you're talking about - you typical self-hating jew! You sound like Obama now - who speaks on issues he admits to know nothing about. This guy wasn't 'selling organs like pieces of objects - he was selling them to people who needed organs. Do you know how many poeple die waiting on the UNOS list? thousands!!!! Does it make what he did right, not if it's illegal - but you don't even make sense for what your saying - trafficking for profit - what then is it? yes he charged for it, but he got those people organs and they are alive now because of it. It's the nine days as you say - so look into yourself a little. ”
i hope all those ppl go to court and vouch for him. maybe he will loose some years of prison.
12
Jul 25, 2009 at 11:31 PM Tzi Bar David Says:
“ you don't know what you're talking about - you typical self-hating jew! You sound like Obama now - who speaks on issues he admits to know nothing about. This guy wasn't 'selling organs like pieces of objects - he was selling them to people who needed organs. Do you know how many poeple die waiting on the UNOS list? thousands!!!! Does it make what he did right, not if it's illegal - but you don't even make sense for what your saying - trafficking for profit - what then is it? yes he charged for it, but he got those people organs and they are alive now because of it. It's the nine days as you say - so look into yourself a little. ”
“ you don't know what you're talking about - you typical self-hating jew! You sound like Obama now - who speaks on issues he admits to know nothing about. This guy wasn't 'selling organs like pieces of objects - he was selling them to people who needed organs. Do you know how many poeple die waiting on the UNOS list? thousands!!!! Does it make what he did right, not if it's illegal - but you don't even make sense for what your saying - trafficking for profit - what then is it? yes he charged for it, but he got those people organs and they are alive now because of it. It's the nine days as you say - so look into yourself a little. ”
8/9 you are the one who has no idea what you are talking about. These people were paid $10,000 for the kidney and the rabbi charged $160,000 for the kidney; thus making a cool $150,000 profit; that is NOT a slight markup to cover expenses, that is NOT acting in a rightous way to help those in need, that IS trafficking in human organs.
13
Jul 25, 2009 at 11:45 PM Anonymous Says:
We all must know that the unbeleivable media coverage does not clearly state the simple fact that all the arrests made with headlines Rabbi's Politicians money launderers and the like did not have a single case between all 44 people that was not set up by the FBI with Dwek approaching only his Rabbis and freind, how can you call a person money launderer if he only did it for a very close freind who cried for it and with the experience work of FBI agents setting it up.
Who can say on himself that he is bullet proof and would be strong withstanding his good friend the son of a Rabbi all planned by FBI agents
14
Jul 25, 2009 at 11:45 PM Anonymous Says:
“ 8/9 you are the one who has no idea what you are talking about. These people were paid $10,000 for the kidney and the rabbi charged $160,000 for the kidney; thus making a cool $150,000 profit; that is NOT a slight markup to cover expenses, that is NOT acting in a rightous way to help those in need, that IS trafficking in human organs. ”
As I head from experts in the field it costed him much more then $10000 to get them so it there are lot of expenses invoved so it wasn't a clean $10000 as you might think
15
Jul 25, 2009 at 11:47 PM Anonymous Says:
“ 8/9 you are the one who has no idea what you are talking about. These people were paid $10,000 for the kidney and the rabbi charged $160,000 for the kidney; thus making a cool $150,000 profit; that is NOT a slight markup to cover expenses, that is NOT acting in a rightous way to help those in need, that IS trafficking in human organs. ”
he is not a rabbi, and no one called him a rabbi. He is just a jew, so please dont call him a rabbi
16
Jul 25, 2009 at 11:46 PM to #8 Says:
If there is a moron here-it is is obviously you-as I happen to work in the field!!I am very far from being a self-hating Jew. Read the details, know-it-all. He sold it for 160,000$ making how much of a profit from 10,000$?????And it involved bullying and many other details you need to inform yourself of. There is something called the ethics committee- ever heard of that? That's why donating kidneys is done for reasons of compassion etc.Read a little before you start name calling.And it is all over the papers for everyone to read and you can't see the shame here?Shame on you because if you are a frum Jew, you have something to cry about these days.!!And it sure seems like a big profit and as the papers said he was the #1 guy for organ trafficking/READ before you dare call me a self-hating Jew.I have a hard time believing you are even an observant Jew if you can condone such activities.Ever hear of Yiras shomayim? It is the 9 days so you should stop rationalyzing illegal activities because you can find many excuses except Gd knows the truth.This man is no hero and no good-doer.
17
Jul 25, 2009 at 11:49 PM attorney Says:
This article is hogwash. They quote a Rutgers dean and a spokesman for Marra. Those quotes are meaningless because, there was never a case where the informant BEGGED the accused to do the crime. In this case, several ppl told him no & he pleaded w/ them. He told the Rabbis he didn't have food on his table. The Rabbis will prove they did it out of pity. I would say, the ppl who said "no" the first few times will get little, if any, punishment.
18
Jul 25, 2009 at 11:59 PM Nobody knows. Says:
The truth is, nobody knows what REALLY happened. Before we start to point fingers, let us wait for the details to trickle out. The story can change a LOT before it actually comes clear.
So far, the story has been one-sided. Please consider that there are many "possibilities" involved.
19
Jul 25, 2009 at 11:58 PM zev Says:
First of all at this point on these episodes it's hard to know what is the truth. Most likely alot of misinfomation from the media. Yes I know this really looks bad, especially after Madoff and Rubashikin. Too many Jews going into the paper for the wrong reasons. It also makes the many "charities and gemachs" look totally corrupt. I for one usually try and give directly to people in need if possible because I was suspect over these many charities collecting money with no accountability as to where the money goes. shall we say too Heimish. As for the organ dealer- this is totally unbelievable. I hope this one is not true because this is by far the worst one yet - in so many ways. And all during the nine days. Does Klal Yisroel need this? How bad this looks in the papers, terrible Chilul Hahsem. Riots in Israel don;t help either. Yidden stop desecrating H name in public.
20
Jul 25, 2009 at 11:56 PM Av Says:
We're in the month of Av. The month associated with "shme'ah"/listening and the tribe of Shimon. This is the time that we blew it by listening/accepting Lashon Hara about eretz israel.
Seems to me, that all these people (including Dwek) have a chazaka of being good Jews and we have an obligation not to accept Lashon Hara about them.
between that and "al tadin es chavercha ad shetagia le'mkomo", we might want to pause and reflect on what our reaction should be.
Teshuva, tefilla, working hard on being mekadesh shem shamayim? just some suggestions
21
Jul 26, 2009 at 12:27 AM Chani Says:
This is all happening because when you know that an individule is a ganov and gazlon we still give him an aliya and respect in shul because he gives a few dollars for zedaka to cover up his misdeeds
22
Jul 26, 2009 at 12:15 AM Anonymous Says:
“ This article is hogwash. They quote a Rutgers dean and a spokesman for Marra. Those quotes are meaningless because, there was never a case where the informant BEGGED the accused to do the crime. In this case, several ppl told him no & he pleaded w/ them. He told the Rabbis he didn't have food on his table. The Rabbis will prove they did it out of pity. I would say, the ppl who said "no" the first few times will get little, if any, punishment. ”
attorney, disclose your name for all to verify whether in fact ur an attorney. Your analysis is not very indicative of that. Do you would know the elements of the defense of entrapment? The entraped person must prove, beyond a reasonable doubt (affirmative defense), that the police (or FBI informant) used coervcive tactics AND that s/he had no propensity to committ those crimes. The facts thus far revealed lack any coercion on the part of Dweck and they all willingly went into it by their own choice.
If i was the prosecutor i would expose how stupid these ppl are. I mean where in heavens name is their Seichel? They are dealing with a guy they KNOW has been charged with bank fraud and they believe him when he says don't worry theyre not watching me???? Just for being so stupid they deserve whatever punishment they ultimately get.
23
Jul 26, 2009 at 12:42 AM thank you Says:
Thank you #19.I am the one who is horrified by the human organ trafficking as well and someone called me a self-hating Jew.I think it is out of ignorance and I hope it is because I don't want to think anyone believes that it is ok to do something so despicable in the eyes of Gd and humanity.They think this is a good thing he did.In another article on this site it even talks about what this man was doing and how horribly he acted all for big big money, preying on the poor and vulnerable.I am sickened by it.It is out of a horror movie almost. Yes,#8, the organs were just object to make huge profits and you need to learn more about Jewish laws and ethics and how hard Jewish people always strived to do H's work and not dirty work!
24
Jul 26, 2009 at 01:24 AM Milhouse Says:
“ 8/9 you are the one who has no idea what you are talking about. These people were paid $10,000 for the kidney and the rabbi charged $160,000 for the kidney; thus making a cool $150,000 profit; that is NOT a slight markup to cover expenses, that is NOT acting in a rightous way to help those in need, that IS trafficking in human organs. ”
What difference does it make how much money he made on the deal? The bottom line is that he made organs available to people who couldn't get one any other way. If the donors didn't get paid enough, that's the government's fault, not his; if there were a legal market then they'd have got more.
25
Jul 26, 2009 at 01:18 AM Milhouse Says:
“ It is the 9 days and I am already crying-bec I see my fellow Jews allowed themselves to get into these predicaments where greed and the almighty $ became their guiding light.I cry for the poor innocent children who see their leaders forget the morals and principles of Judaism and sell their souls for money.I work with many goyim and they just shake their anti-semetic heads.So yes, I cry because it hurts all of us.We all suffer when human organs are sold like pieces of objects and neshama has no meaning in this ugly world or trafficking for profit.How tragic and sad. Gd help us. ”
On the contrary, we all suffer because organs CAN'T be sold on the open market.
26
Jul 26, 2009 at 01:06 AM Anonymous Says:
“ "We all suffer when human organs are sold like pieces of objects", Oh how disgusting, I'm sure that Mr. Rosenbaum ate these organs for supper (sarcasim). ”
Idiot. He preyed on poor sick people and sold them for a profit.
27
Jul 26, 2009 at 12:53 AM Zev Says:
A Gazlon and ganov that steals from a fellow jew should be ostrized and spit out from among us. Only then will we see a change in attitude and respect for rabonim and beth din, this is the core of the problem that we face
28
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:52 AM Anonymous Says:
“ 8/9 you are the one who has no idea what you are talking about. These people were paid $10,000 for the kidney and the rabbi charged $160,000 for the kidney; thus making a cool $150,000 profit; that is NOT a slight markup to cover expenses, that is NOT acting in a rightous way to help those in need, that IS trafficking in human organs. ”
actually your the one who has no idea you think the fbi is posting all the expenses in removing and placing an organ????in a hospital it would cost more than $10,000 so how much if you have to pay everyone along the road....doesnt make it right but doesnt make him a horrible person what dwek did was much worse than what anyone arrested did.
29
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:51 AM Anonymous Says:
At the end of the day, virtually all the people arrested are guilty for whatever reason. That's the sad truth. What makes it worse, is that most of the posts are about the "Moiser", He did a major Avlah. There is no excuse for that, but there are too many people in our community that act above the law, thats the real issue.
30
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:20 AM Anonymous Says:
“ It is the 9 days and I am already crying-bec I see my fellow Jews allowed themselves to get into these predicaments where greed and the almighty $ became their guiding light.I cry for the poor innocent children who see their leaders forget the morals and principles of Judaism and sell their souls for money.I work with many goyim and they just shake their anti-semetic heads.So yes, I cry because it hurts all of us.We all suffer when human organs are sold like pieces of objects and neshama has no meaning in this ugly world or trafficking for profit.How tragic and sad. Gd help us. ”
So When Moshe Rabienu kileed that mitzri which was against Dina Demalchisa and Doson and Avirom wanted to maser him he said Oochein Noida Hadovor now I know why the yiden are in Goolus because there are Mosrim between them
31
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:13 AM Milhouse Says:
“ If there is a moron here-it is is obviously you-as I happen to work in the field!!I am very far from being a self-hating Jew. Read the details, know-it-all. He sold it for 160,000$ making how much of a profit from 10,000$?????And it involved bullying and many other details you need to inform yourself of. There is something called the ethics committee- ever heard of that? That's why donating kidneys is done for reasons of compassion etc.Read a little before you start name calling.And it is all over the papers for everyone to read and you can't see the shame here?Shame on you because if you are a frum Jew, you have something to cry about these days.!!And it sure seems like a big profit and as the papers said he was the #1 guy for organ trafficking/READ before you dare call me a self-hating Jew.I have a hard time believing you are even an observant Jew if you can condone such activities.Ever hear of Yiras shomayim? It is the 9 days so you should stop rationalyzing illegal activities because you can find many excuses except Gd knows the truth.This man is no hero and no good-doer. ”
Yes, there's an "ethics committee". Who gave it the right to decide who gets an organ and who doesn't? And why should organs only be available from those who are willing to give them away for nothing? There's an enormous potential supply from people who don't want to just give one away, but are willing to sell one. Why should people die rather than access that supply? And why shouldn't the sellers be able to make some money? It's their organ, after all.
32
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:06 AM BOB Says:
“ It is the 9 days and I am already crying-bec I see my fellow Jews allowed themselves to get into these predicaments where greed and the almighty $ became their guiding light.I cry for the poor innocent children who see their leaders forget the morals and principles of Judaism and sell their souls for money.I work with many goyim and they just shake their anti-semetic heads.So yes, I cry because it hurts all of us.We all suffer when human organs are sold like pieces of objects and neshama has no meaning in this ugly world or trafficking for profit.How tragic and sad. Gd help us. ”
We have. Lot to be proud of. We have the smallest crime rate by far than any other race,religion and or denomination. We have just had a few (that's also too much for us)incidents of possible misdeeds. Looking into the matter, the arrested are other wise honest special individuals that were just up(they may have done something possibly wrong,but with so sole intention of helping a downtroden person,officially Dwek). The world is just jealous of the Jewish nation. We as a nation are the finest and most honest of all.
33
Jul 26, 2009 at 02:50 AM Anonymous Says:
“ On the contrary, we all suffer because organs CAN'T be sold on the open market. ”
You comment a lot on this site but this time you have no idea what your talking about. The reason why there should not be an open market for organs is simple. Just like there are people who are desperate enough and live in favela's and shantytowns and have no idea where to get money from to eat, live in a house with a roof, buy medicine or pay for a doctor when the are sick, they are so desperate to feed their families that they would sell an organ just to get out of their predicament, their is also greedy scum who pray on people like that to make huge profits. This guy who is selling organs ain't no big tzaddik, just do a little research and you will see what these people are up to. There is no difference between this and people who go to the same countries as this guy went to to get his organs (Brazil, Moldova etc) and talk girls into coming to America and then sell them to become prostitutes.
34
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:06 AM BOB Says:
“ It is the 9 days and I am already crying-bec I see my fellow Jews allowed themselves to get into these predicaments where greed and the almighty $ became their guiding light.I cry for the poor innocent children who see their leaders forget the morals and principles of Judaism and sell their souls for money.I work with many goyim and they just shake their anti-semetic heads.So yes, I cry because it hurts all of us.We all suffer when human organs are sold like pieces of objects and neshama has no meaning in this ugly world or trafficking for profit.How tragic and sad. Gd help us. ”
We have. Lot to be proud of. We have the smallest crime rate by far than any other race,religion and or denomination. We have just had a few (that's also too much for us)incidents of possible misdeeds. Looking into the matter, the arrested are other wise honest special individuals that were just up(they may have done something possibly wrong,but with so sole intention of helping a downtroden person,officially Dwek). The world is just jealous of the Jewish nation. We as a nation are the finest and most honest of all.
35
Jul 26, 2009 at 02:50 AM Anonymous Says:
“ On the contrary, we all suffer because organs CAN'T be sold on the open market. ”
You comment a lot on this site but this time you have no idea what your talking about. The reason why there should not be an open market for organs is simple. Just like there are people who are desperate enough and live in favela's and shantytowns and have no idea where to get money from to eat, live in a house with a roof, buy medicine or pay for a doctor when the are sick, they are so desperate to feed their families that they would sell an organ just to get out of their predicament, their is also greedy scum who pray on people like that to make huge profits. This guy who is selling organs ain't no big tzaddik, just do a little research and you will see what these people are up to. There is no difference between this and people who go to the same countries as this guy went to to get his organs (Brazil, Moldova etc) and talk girls into coming to America and then sell them to become prostitutes.
36
Jul 26, 2009 at 02:38 AM Anonymous Says:
“ THE JOB OF THE FBI IS TO ROOT OUT CRIMINAL MINDS FROM SOCIETY
IN THESE CASES IT "SEEMS" THEY DID THE OPPOSITE
THEY USED A CRIMINAL MIND TO ENTRAP GOOD PEOPLE
CHASING GEMACHS FOR MONTHS TO PLEASE CASH A CHK.
ASKING SOMEONE TO HELP A DYING UNCLE OBTAIN A KIDNEY
A TRAGEDY ON SO MANY LEVELS - ”
ASKING SOMEONE TO HELP A DYING UNCLE OBTAIN A KIDNEY.
This guy is involved in a human organ smuggling ring. Before you say he is helping people you have to understand what he is doing. These organs don't come from Americans who donate them as a donor. These organs come from people who live in countries under terrible conditions such as in the favela's in Brazil or Moldova or other places in the world where people make 500 dollars a year salary. You offer these people 10000 dollars (the money they would make in 20 years if they are lucky) in the best scenario (there are cases in which they only got paid 3000 dollars) and yes some people who have no house to live in, no idea where there next meal will come from, yes those people would sell a organ to survive.
If they would be educated like us and get paid the same as us and would know the consequences of what could go wrong with them after they donate the organs, then they would not.
This is not some guy that does mitsvas. This guy does the same as drug dealers and scum does, the prey on people who have nothing.
It is a very dirty business.
37
Jul 26, 2009 at 02:34 AM Avrohom Abba Says:
Is he allowed to decide that his freedom is more important than the freedom of 50 others?
38
Jul 26, 2009 at 02:28 AM Anonymous Says:
The orgen traffic case is sick stuff no doubt about it but I was listening live to the press conf.that morning and the words wher quote there were money loundering involved as well as organ traficking I was totaly convinced that this whole group was involved in all this stuff they make it sound like they cracked a whole group of money louderers,organ trafickers the news papers playd along we have an obligation to let the world know that it was blown out of proportion just for the chilul hashem sake of it if it would have been such I case at the black community let alone what al sharpton may have done but obama would come out to defend them....
39
Jul 26, 2009 at 05:42 AM Shua Says:
Did anyone notice posuk 23 in yesterday's Haftaroh for Parshas Devarim? If not, you'll be stunned! Here's a translation:
"Your princes [leaders] are wayward and associates of thieves; the whole of them love bribery and pursue illegal payments." [Isaiah 1:23]
The Navi's words describe 'mamash' what was reported in the news, and were read in shul 'mamash' during the same week that the money laundering scandal broke. Does anyone think this is a coincidence? As Y'irei Shomayim we know that there is no such thing as a "coincidence." This is all very ominous for Klal Yisrael.
40
Jul 26, 2009 at 07:53 AM Bronx Bubby Says:
“ THE JOB OF THE FBI IS TO ROOT OUT CRIMINAL MINDS FROM SOCIETY
IN THESE CASES IT "SEEMS" THEY DID THE OPPOSITE
THEY USED A CRIMINAL MIND TO ENTRAP GOOD PEOPLE
CHASING GEMACHS FOR MONTHS TO PLEASE CASH A CHK.
ASKING SOMEONE TO HELP A DYING UNCLE OBTAIN A KIDNEY
A TRAGEDY ON SO MANY LEVELS - ”
If this was the only time that these people did it, they can claim entrapment by Dweck. If their records show they did it other times, they will be in trouble. And other Mosdos who are doing illegal things need to change their practice.
41
Jul 26, 2009 at 08:20 AM Anonymous Says:
“ ASKING SOMEONE TO HELP A DYING UNCLE OBTAIN A KIDNEY.
This guy is involved in a human organ smuggling ring. Before you say he is helping people you have to understand what he is doing. These organs don't come from Americans who donate them as a donor. These organs come from people who live in countries under terrible conditions such as in the favela's in Brazil or Moldova or other places in the world where people make 500 dollars a year salary. You offer these people 10000 dollars (the money they would make in 20 years if they are lucky) in the best scenario (there are cases in which they only got paid 3000 dollars) and yes some people who have no house to live in, no idea where there next meal will come from, yes those people would sell a organ to survive.
If they would be educated like us and get paid the same as us and would know the consequences of what could go wrong with them after they donate the organs, then they would not.
This is not some guy that does mitsvas. This guy does the same as drug dealers and scum does, the prey on people who have nothing.
It is a very dirty business. ”
Not going in to details about this person that allegedly dealt with organs, basically kidneys only! the risks of donating one kidney is "0"! or close to it, according to experts.
There are very many people I know including 2 of my very close friends that donated their kidneys to people with kidney failure, they are as healthy as anybody else.
42
Jul 26, 2009 at 07:48 AM Anonymous Says:
“ It is the 9 days and I am already crying-bec I see my fellow Jews allowed themselves to get into these predicaments where greed and the almighty $ became their guiding light.I cry for the poor innocent children who see their leaders forget the morals and principles of Judaism and sell their souls for money.I work with many goyim and they just shake their anti-semetic heads.So yes, I cry because it hurts all of us.We all suffer when human organs are sold like pieces of objects and neshama has no meaning in this ugly world or trafficking for profit.How tragic and sad. Gd help us. ”
I assume that in a lot of these cases of money laundering & tax fraud (not just this one, but others), Rabbis are taking the money for their Mosdos and not due to personal greed. They may not feel that it is immoral, as it benefits either poor people, or students to learn Torah. However, I don't understand how as Rabbis they can make the decision to do something clearly illegal? Can someone please explain that.
Alot of institutions are living payroll to payroll and probably feel desperate. I'm not sure what the answer is. Probably a more orderly way to support our institutions, like the iniative to get people to donate a portion of their estate, or things like that.
Community leaders (even those who are scrupulously honest and law abiding) need to start dealing with this problem. Our lifestyles seem to be outstripping our means as a community, and solutions need to be found.
43
Jul 26, 2009 at 07:35 AM anonymous Says:
“ you don't know what you're talking about - you typical self-hating jew! You sound like Obama now - who speaks on issues he admits to know nothing about. This guy wasn't 'selling organs like pieces of objects - he was selling them to people who needed organs. Do you know how many poeple die waiting on the UNOS list? thousands!!!! Does it make what he did right, not if it's illegal - but you don't even make sense for what your saying - trafficking for profit - what then is it? yes he charged for it, but he got those people organs and they are alive now because of it. It's the nine days as you say - so look into yourself a little. ”
“ you don't know what you're talking about - you typical self-hating jew! You sound like Obama now - who speaks on issues he admits to know nothing about. This guy wasn't 'selling organs like pieces of objects - he was selling them to people who needed organs. Do you know how many poeple die waiting on the UNOS list? thousands!!!! Does it make what he did right, not if it's illegal - but you don't even make sense for what your saying - trafficking for profit - what then is it? yes he charged for it, but he got those people organs and they are alive now because of it. It's the nine days as you say - so look into yourself a little. ”
This is a high profile case because it involves Rabbonim and the FBI does not want undue publicity and the approval for the arrest must been issued from the Department of Justice. It is corruption greed for money and the goyishe laws which we don't have to obey. The worst is that we worry if you can take a bath in the nine days and shave but this hillul hashem is brushed off
44
Jul 26, 2009 at 07:35 AM tzoorba Says:
“ ASKING SOMEONE TO HELP A DYING UNCLE OBTAIN A KIDNEY.
This guy is involved in a human organ smuggling ring. Before you say he is helping people you have to understand what he is doing. These organs don't come from Americans who donate them as a donor. These organs come from people who live in countries under terrible conditions such as in the favela's in Brazil or Moldova or other places in the world where people make 500 dollars a year salary. You offer these people 10000 dollars (the money they would make in 20 years if they are lucky) in the best scenario (there are cases in which they only got paid 3000 dollars) and yes some people who have no house to live in, no idea where there next meal will come from, yes those people would sell a organ to survive.
If they would be educated like us and get paid the same as us and would know the consequences of what could go wrong with them after they donate the organs, then they would not.
This is not some guy that does mitsvas. This guy does the same as drug dealers and scum does, the prey on people who have nothing.
It is a very dirty business. ”
What's dirty about it? Many people in America sell their own blood to blood banks for money.
The fairy tale of these poor people getting any sort of decent job in their country or moving here is just that, a fairy tale. You are leaving them with no hope.
There is no coercion of the donors. If they willingly provide the organs which go to help desperately ill people who would die otherwise, and they make money to live on, there is no evil in that.
Organ trafficking is illegal because there is a fear that donors will be forced or people will be killed to harvest their organs. There was none of that going on here.
He should have stuck to countries where it is totally legal and had the operations done there. In this way he would have been recognized for the lifesaver that he really was.
45
Jul 26, 2009 at 06:38 AM Charlie Hall Says:
“ Did anyone notice posuk 23 in yesterday's Haftaroh for Parshas Devarim? If not, you'll be stunned! Here's a translation:
"Your princes [leaders] are wayward and associates of thieves; the whole of them love bribery and pursue illegal payments." [Isaiah 1:23]
The Navi's words describe 'mamash' what was reported in the news, and were read in shul 'mamash' during the same week that the money laundering scandal broke. Does anyone think this is a coincidence? As Y'irei Shomayim we know that there is no such thing as a "coincidence." This is all very ominous for Klal Yisrael. ”
That was the topic of the sermon in my shul this past Shabat.
Is it possible that HaShem timed these arrests in order to send us a message? Don't we believe that nothing happens in this world by mistake?
46
Jul 26, 2009 at 06:35 AM Charlie Hall Says:
“ Yes, there's an "ethics committee". Who gave it the right to decide who gets an organ and who doesn't? And why should organs only be available from those who are willing to give them away for nothing? There's an enormous potential supply from people who don't want to just give one away, but are willing to sell one. Why should people die rather than access that supply? And why shouldn't the sellers be able to make some money? It's their organ, after all. ”
There is an enormous potential supply of organs from China. They execute thousands of persons each year and try to sell the organs, timing the execution to the availability of paying organ recipients. Do you support that?
47
Jul 26, 2009 at 06:32 AM Charlie Hall Says:
“ Why would you mix in the President into this conversation? You are nothing more them a rightwing nut. ”
There are a lot of rightwing nuts here. The person who was responsible for starting the investigation was not President Obama, who was still a Senator from Illinois back then -- it was then-US attorney Chris Christie, now running for governor of New Jersey.
48
Jul 26, 2009 at 08:38 AM Tzi Bar David Says:
“ We have. Lot to be proud of. We have the smallest crime rate by far than any other race,religion and or denomination. We have just had a few (that's also too much for us)incidents of possible misdeeds. Looking into the matter, the arrested are other wise honest special individuals that were just up(they may have done something possibly wrong,but with so sole intention of helping a downtroden person,officially Dwek). The world is just jealous of the Jewish nation. We as a nation are the finest and most honest of all. ”
“ We have. Lot to be proud of. We have the smallest crime rate by far than any other race,religion and or denomination. We have just had a few (that's also too much for us)incidents of possible misdeeds. Looking into the matter, the arrested are other wise honest special individuals that were just up(they may have done something possibly wrong,but with so sole intention of helping a downtroden person,officially Dwek). The world is just jealous of the Jewish nation. We as a nation are the finest and most honest of all. ”
Yes, Bob, we have a lot to be proud of; but it is clear now that when it comes to questions of ethics we are no better or worse than anyone else. For what it's worth, I work with plenty of goyim and none of them have intimated that this is a "Jewish" thing (particularly the Catholics, they have lots to be ashamed of). I don't sense any uptick in anti-Semitism because of this (at least not to my face).
My question now is "Who at Mt. Sinai Hospital was in on this?" As is clear, the "donors" were clearly being taken advantage of. It is clear they were not freely choosing to donate (they were under financial distress) nor were they fairly compensated for their "gift." Also it is doubtful any of them were ever advised of the problems they may face in the years to come by only having one kidney. There is a lot more to this story, and I am waiting for the other shoe to drop.
49
Jul 26, 2009 at 09:15 AM Anonymous Says:
“ What's dirty about it? Many people in America sell their own blood to blood banks for money.
The fairy tale of these poor people getting any sort of decent job in their country or moving here is just that, a fairy tale. You are leaving them with no hope.
There is no coercion of the donors. If they willingly provide the organs which go to help desperately ill people who would die otherwise, and they make money to live on, there is no evil in that.
Organ trafficking is illegal because there is a fear that donors will be forced or people will be killed to harvest their organs. There was none of that going on here.
He should have stuck to countries where it is totally legal and had the operations done there. In this way he would have been recognized for the lifesaver that he really was. ”
You are so naïve. You have no idea in what kind of conditions these people live.
50
Jul 26, 2009 at 09:05 AM anonymous Says:
“ At the end of the day, virtually all the people arrested are guilty for whatever reason. That's the sad truth. What makes it worse, is that most of the posts are about the "Moiser", He did a major Avlah. There is no excuse for that, but there are too many people in our community that act above the law, thats the real issue.
”
The moiser probably and I say probably as guilty as the others "probably" are except he probably was offered a plea bargaining and instead of going to jail he sung. He as many others wished to save their gluteal muscle
51
Jul 26, 2009 at 09:22 AM tzoorba Says:
“ You are so naïve. You have no idea in what kind of conditions these people live. ”
Your statement is totally nonsensical. It is precisely because of the dire conditions that these people live in that they should be given the opportunity to save an unfortunate life and earn many years of livelihood for themselves without coercion.
52
Jul 26, 2009 at 10:04 AM Anonymous Says:
“ A Gazlon and ganov that steals from a fellow jew should be ostrized and spit out from among us. Only then will we see a change in attitude and respect for rabonim and beth din, this is the core of the problem that we face ”
Anyone who steals, from jew or non-jew.
53
Jul 26, 2009 at 10:06 AM Anonymous Says:
“ There are a lot of rightwing nuts here. The person who was responsible for starting the investigation was not President Obama, who was still a Senator from Illinois back then -- it was then-US attorney Chris Christie, now running for governor of New Jersey. ”
really? he was in the news TODAY for signing a letter that is pro-nazi. he said it want done on purpose.
54
Jul 26, 2009 at 10:36 AM Anonymous Says:
According to what you all loshen horo'niks are saying he should be a millionaire several times over. For those who know him you can attest that he is nowhere near being a rich man. Let's analyze this for a moment. Does anybody have an idea of what it takes to find an organ donor at any price?? Just look at how long those ads run looking for donors when needed loi uleinu? The average individual that is over 65-70 in need of a kidney, is not getting one. The govt or any medical provider is not going out anywhere to buy an organ. Now if somebody has the means and has to resort to other anenues to get the help they need, then they will do it. Try getting a major operation done at any medical facility without being properly insured or the wherewithall to pay for it, see how far you will get. Just think for a minute the expense of finding somebody, transportation, doctors and hospital fees, and all kinds of counseling, do you think for one second there is a profit of $150,000. Are you people just crazy??? And if somebody has to go out and put all the pieces together the man is entitled to get compensated, the same way a doctor is compensated for his knowledge, a broker for putting together a deal, or any other transaction that requires know how and very hard work. If it was so easy, the insurance companies or the medical providers would be getting organs at $10k and save a lot of money having people lingering in hospitals and nursing homes clinging to life. They're quality of life would be improved. I don't see the crime of someone trying to save somebody's life and being paid for his work. Yes, true there are chesed organisations and work very hard at trying to do the best they can. I'm sure there are all sorts of charitable and good deed outfits that work very hard and have expenses involved. If you need an organ desperately and its not available, somebody has to work very hard at putting it all together. This wasn't done in a chop shop or something, The expenses are tremendous. The $10k the donor received is something that the donor has agreed too and perhaps makes his life easier, the organ the recepient received mad the recepient's life easier. I don't see multiple organisations or medical providers advertising such services should it be needed. Yes Mr. Rosenbaum has done a lot of good and saved countless lives, in some case he had to go get people to agree and pay huge sums in expenses, and in some there were less expense. If one does not have a choice and doesn't want to wait then you have to resort for someone to go out and procure whatever is needed and that requires time and money and expense.
Don't go judging so fast and burying people so fast, if not for providing that vital organ the person would not make it. How do you justify the ambulance charging $1000. For transporting a patient, how do you justify a hospital charging $3000. A day for medical care? How do you justify top doctors charging whatever they want for providing a life saving operation??? Cmon people let's be realistic. Without that organ the person wouldn't be alive at any price, the man worked hard to facilitate and enhance the recepients life. If it was free nobody would be doing it.
55
Jul 26, 2009 at 10:34 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Yes, Bob, we have a lot to be proud of; but it is clear now that when it comes to questions of ethics we are no better or worse than anyone else. For what it's worth, I work with plenty of goyim and none of them have intimated that this is a "Jewish" thing (particularly the Catholics, they have lots to be ashamed of). I don't sense any uptick in anti-Semitism because of this (at least not to my face).
My question now is "Who at Mt. Sinai Hospital was in on this?" As is clear, the "donors" were clearly being taken advantage of. It is clear they were not freely choosing to donate (they were under financial distress) nor were they fairly compensated for their "gift." Also it is doubtful any of them were ever advised of the problems they may face in the years to come by only having one kidney. There is a lot more to this story, and I am waiting for the other shoe to drop. ”
The donors were not forced, they received money they badly needed, what about all these people that choose to sell their hair, are they also forced??
This law is rediculous, the government does not own peoples bodies, where has democracy gone to???
56
Jul 26, 2009 at 10:31 AM Anonymous Says:
“ It is the 9 days and I am already crying-bec I see my fellow Jews allowed themselves to get into these predicaments where greed and the almighty $ became their guiding light.I cry for the poor innocent children who see their leaders forget the morals and principles of Judaism and sell their souls for money.I work with many goyim and they just shake their anti-semetic heads.So yes, I cry because it hurts all of us.We all suffer when human organs are sold like pieces of objects and neshama has no meaning in this ugly world or trafficking for profit.How tragic and sad. Gd help us. ”
If you don't have anything kind to say then don't say anything at all. If you cry, cry to yourself, you don't have to air out your feelings in public.
Don't judge others unless you are in their shoes. Are you so sure you would not fall for the temptations that these people were enticed into?
G-d forbid if you or your family member would ever need an organ, I wonder if you would wait on the list until you almost die until you get the organ you need.
I know of a man who urgently needed a transplant and the doctors said he was not ill enough, he had to wait some more. Finally when the doctors felt he was "deserving" of an organ since he was more dead than alive, no doctor wanted to perform the surgery. B.H. they found a doctor out of state who undertook the surgery. It was alot more serious and the recuperation alot more risky. So next time you voice your opinion think twice, Hashem may yet put you to test.
57
Jul 26, 2009 at 11:24 AM #56/awful! Says:
Are you even a frum person? Have you any sense of ethics?You should cry because you unfortunately have no sense of right or wrong and think nothing of the "chazer" who bled people for the huge profit.Go educate yourself.I work in a hospital so I don't need an education on transplants. Understand the word "legal" and criminal activity?Understand the coersion that is involved and how people fall prey to such due to their condition and circumstances in life and then these leeches feed off them.You are either very naive or just a person with so little conscience/morals that I feel sorry for you.No yiras shomayim is what it's about.Try 160,000$ as a nice profit here.Don't tell me about being in such a situation-I know more about it then you ever will- no scruples,no integrity.I know people who donated it out of compassion.Would you,bigshot?No, all you see is money so come out and say it.It takes greed to recognize it in others so you and that Rosen. must be on the same wavelength.DISGUSTING!!!!
58
Jul 26, 2009 at 11:27 AM WHAT? Says:
#56 YOU SAY DON'T TALK OR JUDGE?wHAT THESE people did was break the law(if convicted)and it effects EVERYONE.Like it or not there are laws just like there are dinim and if you see nothing wrong with it,go talk to some mashbia to help you learn something about Torah laws!
59
Jul 26, 2009 at 02:40 PM All about Mossir Says:
I suggest everyone take a look at the Teshuvas HaRosh regarding the Halacha of a Mossir before blindly stating their opinions. He stipulates over there "When a Jew owes money to a gentile, and the Jew is seeking to improperly avoid payment of the money to the gentile, and another Jew informs the gentile of this fact who then collects the money rightfully owed to him, that is not called informing, as the Jew who is informed on only has to pay that which he ought to pay, anyway. Payment of taxes to the government is exactly such a debt. Some say such informing is frowned on when it gratuitously benefits a pagan, and others say such conduct is proper." In other words their's a machlokes as to whether or not Dwek's actions should be simply frowned upon (but NOT a Mossir) or if such conduct is even proper.
We need to realize that Hashem is VERY VERY Weatlhy and that we don't need underhanded means to secure this wealth even for our aniyim. If our Emunah wasn't misplaced, this entire episode would have never occured.
60
Jul 26, 2009 at 04:46 PM anonymous Says:
“ I suggest everyone take a look at the Teshuvas HaRosh regarding the Halacha of a Mossir before blindly stating their opinions. He stipulates over there "When a Jew owes money to a gentile, and the Jew is seeking to improperly avoid payment of the money to the gentile, and another Jew informs the gentile of this fact who then collects the money rightfully owed to him, that is not called informing, as the Jew who is informed on only has to pay that which he ought to pay, anyway. Payment of taxes to the government is exactly such a debt. Some say such informing is frowned on when it gratuitously benefits a pagan, and others say such conduct is proper." In other words their's a machlokes as to whether or not Dwek's actions should be simply frowned upon (but NOT a Mossir) or if such conduct is even proper.
We need to realize that Hashem is VERY VERY Weatlhy and that we don't need underhanded means to secure this wealth even for our aniyim. If our Emunah wasn't misplaced, this entire episode would have never occured. ”
If all of you would stop voicing these long drashas and just be an ehrlicher Yid none of this would have happened, control your greed for big houses, fancy wedding, and crystal chandeliers and you can live as an erlicher yid if you work
61
Jul 26, 2009 at 05:43 PM iceberg Says:
“ I suggest everyone take a look at the Teshuvas HaRosh regarding the Halacha of a Mossir before blindly stating their opinions. He stipulates over there "When a Jew owes money to a gentile, and the Jew is seeking to improperly avoid payment of the money to the gentile, and another Jew informs the gentile of this fact who then collects the money rightfully owed to him, that is not called informing, as the Jew who is informed on only has to pay that which he ought to pay, anyway. Payment of taxes to the government is exactly such a debt. Some say such informing is frowned on when it gratuitously benefits a pagan, and others say such conduct is proper." In other words their's a machlokes as to whether or not Dwek's actions should be simply frowned upon (but NOT a Mossir) or if such conduct is even proper.
We need to realize that Hashem is VERY VERY Weatlhy and that we don't need underhanded means to secure this wealth even for our aniyim. If our Emunah wasn't misplaced, this entire episode would have never occured. ”
Solomon Dwek is worse than a mosser; he is more alike Bar Kamtza, by deliberately setting up fellow(!) Jews by having them commit so-called crimes against the medina.
Second, by what right did you establish that "payment of taxes" is such a debt- to incur a debt an individual has to voluntarily agree to render money or future payment thereof in exchange for goods or services. Government 'goods' and 'services' are typically 'bads' rather than goods, and provided through coercive means, more akin to a Mafia's 'protection racket', only that the government has better publicity than the Mafia.
I hold it's mitzvah to disregard governments' laws when one can clearly get away with it. You can't find not even one good or service that couldn't be provided for privately, more efficiently, except maybe for the killing of funny-talking foreigners for which Mafia gangs and governments have been honing their skills for centuries.
Take recycling laws for example; if it made economic sense, people would be doing it on a voluntary basis, and there would be no reason for people to do it solely on the basis of not wanting to get fined. Does anyone care to know how much NYC spends a year on recycling- somewhere around $93 million IIRC, and this is just NYC. Is spending $93 million towards the mere reshuffling of garbage wastes economical? Certainly not. It only makes sense when you legislate a law to enslave the citizens to perform otherwise unproductive work to benefit your politically connected cronies. Couldn't we put that money towards better ends, say feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, daresay Yeshiva funding? No, lets make a few statists and environmentally-retarded wackos feel better knowing that they aren't the only ones sorting their garbage into sixteen different color-coded piles in their faux concern for not humanity, but the Earths' future. Isn't this gross waste of taxpayer money ba'al tashchis? We are literally throwing away our money on frivolous agendas.
I say that any money that can be hidden from the government, the better for everyone's welfare.
62
Jul 27, 2009 at 03:36 PM Menachem Says:
Even if the 44 plead non-guilty to the charges. Additional charges from the IRS will be pending. I think most of the them will plead guilty to lesser charges, once the court day is estabished.